| Subject: |
Re: Official Languages |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:08:50 -0400 |
|
Salvete Omnes Quirites
>Salvete,
>It should be voted down or withdrawn.
It may well be either one or both. :-)
> The phrasing of the proposal is just too ambiguous.
I wrote it that way on purpose to give us the room to interpret. Have
you ever read the Bill of Rights? They are not precise.
>"The language of record for all official Nova Roma business shall be
English,
>with a Latin translation provided when possible and practical.
Translations
>into other languages may also be provided." <snip>That
>should satisfy the Latinists among us, and would give us all an incentive
to
>become better acquainted with Latin.
See, you have such words and phrases as "possible and practical"and
"may also be provided", so who determines how these are applied?
>To our esteemed Praetor L. Equitius - I like your idea of an official
>language, but I think that it needs a little more precision in its written
>expression.
>Valete,Quintus Poppaeus Sabinus
>
Once again, I wrote exactly what I meant to say. So, if you think that
English and /or Latin should not be the languages of Nova Roma then vote no.
I just don't think that there are enough Latin speakers out there that
we should worry that they will "take over". I left Latin as an "or" option
for those religious rites (spoken) that should be conducted in Latin without
immediate translation.
Also, there is nothing in the law as written that prohibits
translation into whatever language is needed to conduct efficent
communications. We all want Nova Roma to grow and prosper.
Valete Lucius Equitus Cincinnatus
|
| Subject: |
Re: In Dreamland? |
| From: |
"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 02:48:33 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 AstUs---------------- wrote:
> From: AstUs----------------
> Nova Roma cannot do much for it's citizens. It does not defend them
> against forigen or national threats. It does not provide a saftey net should
> our personal economic situations fall into jeapordy. It does not provide
> roads, make safe our water-ways, etc.
What does the Vatican do other than provide a spiritual beacon to
Catholics? Are they any less sovereign? "How many divisions does the Pope
have?" asked Stalin. Let's not make the same mistake and see a nation in
strictly the terms of force and materialism.
> I think that most of us at least, if
> not all, would agree that we are Americans, British, etc, first and foremost,
> and Romans second.
I would agree, I am an American First and always will be. That does
not make me any less a Nova Roman than being an American makes a
Catholic any less a Catholic. I think of us as a spiritual nation. I
almost always use the term "nation" rather than state when referring to
Nova Roma for a nation is a people, bound by ties of culture, history and
language. We have chosen this "second-nation," rather than be born into
it. I do not use the term "state" in connection with Nova Roma because a
state is a mechanism whose main feature of is force and coercion. That
power is something Nova Roma will not have but yet I think of us as a
"nation" with in some ways stronger ties because they are chosen.
> So let us imagine for a momement that within a few years the Nova Roma
> citizenry grew to an extent suffienct to afford the purchase of a small
> island. What would be the purpose, other than having a place to erect a few
> pillared marble temples? How many people in Nova Roma would actually desire
> to move and live on the "New Rome" island? Would anyone here really wish to
> leave behind the benefits of our American or other original citizenship? And
> what if a few people did in fact go to live on the island? What would they
> do, after the temples would be built? Pray in them? Perhaps grow some crops?
> Would the effort be worth the majority of non-resident Nova Romans to support
> these people?
>
> The idea of a forum to serve as a "capital of Roman culture" is a pleasant
> one. But really, how practical? Skeptic that I am, I am highly doubtful Nova
> Roma can be anything other than what it is at present; a voluntary society of
> people who are interested in and like Ancient Rome, and who, such as myself,
> have a sort of sad wish that the old Empire would still exist.
The idea of a forum is not the same as an island. I think the goal of the
108 acre (the same size as Vatican City) forum is practical and it is
stated as a long term goal on the website and is in the Constitution
(though the size of the proposed capitol is not mentioned). 108 acres is
not that much land in the long run. What I think will be the real issue
will be funding building projects on that land and deciding what to build.
I think the 108 acres is quite feasible, building something beyond an
altar under the open sky will be more difficult. I don't think the island
practical for accessibility and I don't think it too realistic to expect
sovereign recognition of any land as the Vatican's 108 acres is
recognized. But still, would it have to be recognized as "sovereign"
territory by Macronations for it to serve its purpose?
As for what could go on the land, well, yes temples as you mentioned
rather dismissively, but also shops, residences, a Senate building,
gardens, theaters museums and...fill in the blank. I don't see such a
place being self-sustaining except perhaps by tourism, by Nova Romans and
the curious; people would for the most part have to work elsewhere, even
live elsewhere but it could still be a Mecca of sorts if it were placed
well, not too far from some major cities say in rural New York, New
England, NJ etc.
Ok, I'll take my blinders of idealism off now and be silent but I do think
some of this is achievable if we think long-term.
Valete,
Decius Iunius Palladius
Senator, Praetor Urbanis
Paterfamilias Gens Iunia
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non scholae sed vitae discimus.
Seneca
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"
Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.
|
| Subject: |
Re: In Dreamland? |
| From: |
"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 02:54:29 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 Dexippus@-------- wrote:
> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-08-12 20:39:24 EDT, you write:
>
> Well...it has happened before...a little piece of land we now call Israel!
> Many Jews from all over the world flocked to live in the Holy Land when the
> state of Israel declared itself in 1946 (I believe this was the date...I'm not
> a historian).
1948 was the year. The experience of Israel is not one we want to emulate.
They had a bloody fight taking that land from its inhabitants, as a result
making themselves hated by their neighbors and a large chunk of the world
community. I would rather see something peaceful and legal or nothing at
all.
Palladius
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non scholae sed vitae discimus.
Seneca
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"
Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.
|
| Subject: |
Re: In Dreamland? |
| From: |
pythia kingan@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:17:00 +0000 |
|
D. Iunius Palladius wrote:
> From: "D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
>
> 1948 was the year. The experience of Israel is not one we want to emulate.
> They had a bloody fight taking that land from its inhabitants, as a result
> making themselves hated by their neighbors and a large chunk of the world
> community.
Well, lucky us, at least we're not hated, (I think) But were'nt the Jews already
> hated by their neighbors and a large chunk of the world
> community.
>
And I think they accomplished that by having the misfortune of an encounter
with
Paul of Tarsus. And since they probobly figured it was better to have the world
hate them because they were afraid of them , rather than because it served the
Christian world's theological purposes, they took the risk. I hope we never face
the
concerted efforts of Christendom, with their supposedly "loving god", or we may
find
we have more in common with Israel than we thought.
Although I personally like this pipedream of a "landed Nova Roma". I too think
that
anything more than a "foundation" at a nice old place in...say...upstate N.Y. is
probobly out of the question. Besides which we need to find ways to bolster the
treasury anyway.
Pythia
P.S., can Dex be our 'Priest of High Fashion"?
--
_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:
Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html</a>
<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: In Dreamland? |
| From: |
Claudia Aprica quinta_claudia_lucentia_aprica@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:09:29 -0700 (PDT) |
|
What I think will be the real issue
> will be funding building projects on that land and deciding what to
build.
> I think the 108 acres is quite feasible, building something beyond an
> altar under the open sky will be more difficult.
<snip>
>
> As for what could go on the land, well, yes temples as you mentioned
> rather dismissively, but also shops, residences, a Senate building,
> gardens, theaters museums and...fill in the blank.
Palladi - I like your vision! As a student of Roman urbanism, and
someone who's spent a lot of time looking specifically at Roman
town-planning, I'm ready and willing to design us a city in the
classic Roman manner should the need ever arise.
> Ok, I'll take my blinders of idealism off now and be silent but I do
think
> some of this is achievable if we think long-term.
>
And yes, I agree with this too. Although I kick-started this
discussion in a slightly tongue-in-cheek manner, I do understand that
the acquisition of territory, and recognition as a Macronation are
some of our long-term goals, and I very much hope that we will someday
be able to achieve them.
I understand Festus' reservations about the practicality of the
idea, and agree that most of us will probably have to be based
primarily elsewhere, visiting Nova Roma whenever we are able. But I
think that having somewhere where we can go to live in the manner we
wish to, and to come together with other citizens, would be an
important function for our 108 acres, which shouldn't be dismissed
lightly. It'll all have to be thought through very, very carefully if
it ever happens, but if we get it right, I believe it can work.
Valete, omnes.
Aprica.
==
**********************************************************************
Drop in on my gens - <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133</a>
**********************************************************************
|
| Subject: |
Re: In Dreamland? |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:24:26 -0400 |
|
Salvete Cives
> Palladi - I like your vision!
I second that!
<As a student of Roman urbanism, and
>someone who's spent a lot of time looking specifically at Roman
>town-planning, I'm ready and willing to design us a city in the
>classic Roman manner should the need ever arise.
>
I'll help too!
>> Ok, I'll take my blinders of idealism off now and be silent but I do
>think
>> some of this is achievable if we think long-term.
Of course it is achievable. We just need time and enough citizens who
will pull in the same direction.
> And yes, I agree with this too. Although I kick-started this
>discussion in a slightly tongue-in-cheek manner, I do understand that
>the acquisition of territory, and recognition as a Macronation are
>some of our long-term goals, and I very much hope that we will someday
>be able to achieve them.
> I understand Festus' reservations about the practicality of the
>idea, and agree that most of us will probably have to be based
>primarily elsewhere, visiting Nova Roma whenever we are able.
>But I
>think that having somewhere where we can go to live in the manner we
>wish to, and to come together with other citizens, would be an
>important function for our 108 acres, which shouldn't be dismissed
>lightly. It'll all have to be thought through very, very carefully if
>it ever happens, but if we get it right, I believe it can work.
> Valete, omnes. Aprica.
.
Some of these feelings must have been felt by many of those in the
past who left their homes to move to new lands. The United States was
started by people who were fleeing religious persecution. I myself would
love to live in Nova Roma [ provided it was situated in a warm, dry place
;-) ]. As far as wearing a tunic and toga, I wear mine whenever I get the
chance.
Valete Cincinnatus
|
| Subject: |
Re: In Dreamland? |
| From: |
"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:28:46 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, pythia wrote:
>
>
> D. Iunius Palladius wrote:
>
> > From: "D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
> >
>
> > 1948 was the year. The experience of Israel is not one we want to emulate.
> > They had a bloody fight taking that land from its inhabitants, as a result
> > making themselves hated by their neighbors and a large chunk of the world
> > community.
>
> Well, lucky us, at least we're not hated, (I think) But were'nt the Jews
already
>
> > hated by their neighbors and a large chunk of the world
> > community.
> >
> And I think they accomplished that by having the misfortune of an encounter
with
> Paul of Tarsus. And since they probobly figured it was better to have the
world
> hate them because they were afraid of them , rather than because it served
the
> Christian world's theological purposes, they took the risk. I hope we never
face the
> concerted efforts of Christendom, with their supposedly "loving god", or we
may find
> we have more in common with Israel than we thought.
I wasn't thinking of the Christians at all. I was thinking of the Arabs,
the Palestinians who lived there for centuris and who were pushed out by
the Israelis. When I meant those who hate them I was referring mostly to
the Arab and Islamic world, who are their neighbors on all sides.. The
Christians hadn't even occurred to me, they are Israel's supporters for
the most part.
Anyway, this is getting a bit off the purpose of the list. I was just
pointing out that we do not wat to found anything in anything other
than a lawful, peaceful manner. This will a moot point for many years
anyway.
Palladius
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non scholae sed vitae discimus.
Seneca
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"
Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.
|
| Subject: |
Re: In Dreamland? |
| From: |
"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:38:49 PDT |
|
>> So let us imagine for a momement that within a few years the Nova
Roma
>> citizenry grew to an extent suffienct to afford the purchase of a
small
>> island. What would be the purpose, other than having a place to
erect a few
>> pillared marble temples? How many people in Nova Roma would actually
desire
>> to move and live on the "New Rome" island? Would anyone here really
wish to
>> leave behind the benefits of our American or other original
citizenship? And
>> what if a few people did in fact go to live on the island? What
would they
>> do, after the temples would be built? Pray in them? Perhaps grow
some crops?
>> Would the effort be worth the majority of non-resident Nova Romans to
support
>> these people?
What better use to put a temple than pray in one? To see a temple once
again built to Apollo, wtih all proper reverence, I would do anything.
Yeah, I'm a fanatic. So? Want to take it outside?
Yes, Nova Roma presently offers its citizens very little in the way of
economic or physical protection. However, its citizens also do not yet
pay taxes. We are still coming together -- we have barely broken 100 --
and after we come together, then we might found a nation state. What
Nova Roma does offer is education about philosophies and religions long
considered dead, unjustly I think. It offers a haven of scholarship and
spirituality amid our other nations, some of which consider our
religious practices illegal, others that consider them unusual.
What does Nova Roma offer the non-pagan citizen? Information about
Rome, a place to share thoughts and ideas about the eternal city, and a
network in which to buy, sell, and bartar Roman-related goods.
--M. Gladius Saevus
|
| Subject: |
Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
AstUsari@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:50:02 EDT |
|
Hi everyone.
I enjoyed reading through all the replies and seeing the differing views being
offered.
So, here I go again!
The imaginitive picture of a new Roman Forum serving as a research center, and
as a religious center for Roman style pagans {I would also hope Christian and
Jewish Romans would add some chapels and synagogues to round the picture out}
is a very pretty picture. But again, let's look at it pragmatically.
Classical studies are already being carried out very well in classical studies
departments in universities and liberal arts institutions. There are also a
plethora of fine scholars out there. I am sure everyone has a favorite. And
research in other areas, such as medicine and the physical sciences are also
booming in these non-Roman institutes. Why spend the resources trying to re-
invent the wheel, when it is extremely unlikely that the New Rome would come
anywhere close to matching, let alsone leading the world in such endeavors?
I think the better and more practical way to imagine and plan for Nova Roma's
future is to ask one central question: What can Nova Roma offer that the
other nations, colleges, research institutes, and labs cannot offer? The
possible answers to that question are the directions future planning should
take.
One of the replies to my original note on this subject mentioned having a
place where pagans could be pagans without risk of persecution. Those were
not the exact words used, but the point was there. If this is a motivation
for some, than i answer, "calm yourselves". There is nothing at all to
prevent anyone here, pagan or not, to carry out such worship if you so desire.
Unless one wishes to revert to animal and human sacrifice, or re-institute the
orders of temple prostitutes {such as the Mellisae} or introduce the use of
illegal narcotics into worship, Nova Romans should have no problems with the
state. I do not know of any citizens in Iran,where such trouble should be
expected. It is just that the idea of having a "refuge" in case of legal
persecution seems to me to smack of a bit of hysteria. I have plenty of faith
in the saftey of religious liberty in my country.
One final thought, which may ruffle a few feathers. I raised my eyebrows at
the remarks concerning the Jews "run in" with Paul of Tarsus. I fail to see
what Paul has to do with any of this. Paul was a loyal Roman citizen, who
broke no laws, and there is no evidence that he was not a citizen or that he
caused the Roman state trouble. It should be mentioned that in the two great
revolts against the Rome by the Jews in the years following Jesus life, the
Christians wrere not even involved, to the disgust of Jews. They knew very
well that the kingdom of God of which Jesus and Paul spoke would not be
ushered in by a revolt against Rome. You could say that Jesus and Paul were
both good friends of Rome.
Gaius Lupinius Festus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
pythia kingan@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:18:35 +0000 |
|
AstUs---------------- wrote:
> One final thought, which may ruffle a few feathers. I raised my eyebrows at
> the remarks concerning the Jews "run in" with Paul of Tarsus. I fail to see
> what Paul has to do with any of this. Paul was a loyal Roman citizen, who
> broke no laws, and there is no evidence that he was not a citizen or that he
> caused the Roman state trouble. It should be mentioned that in the two great
> revolts against the Rome by the Jews in the years following Jesus life, the
> Christians wrere not even involved, to the disgust of Jews. They knew very
> well that the kingdom of God of which Jesus and Paul spoke would not be
> ushered in by a revolt against Rome. You could say that Jesus and Paul were
> both good friends of Rome.
>
> Gaius Lupinius Festus
Paul was an opportunist who introduced a deadly virus in both of his
communities!
There. I said it, and I will say no more.
Just one question, Festus.... what are you getting out of Nova Roma?
Pythia
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:
Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
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<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
AstUsari@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:33:25 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/13/98 6:10:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
kingan@-------- writ--------br>
<< Paul was an opportunist who introduced a deadly virus in both of his
communities! >>
Yes. A virus which infected people into believing the Emperor was just a man
after all, and not a god. A virus which reduced the number of "johns" the
Melssisae and similar "priestesses" could rent themselves out to, in the name
of some goddess of love. A virus which did not have such "religious rites" as
the circuses and bestiarri.
Gibbon's naive view is passe now.
What am I getting out of Nova Roma? No more than I expected. As a non-
scholar who is not in college majoring in classdical studies, it is a slight
touch with the past and a civilization I happen to find interesting. It is
certainly not a "cause" to me, nor is it a source of religious inspiration to
me. It is for me a voluntary society of people with a common interest. Will
it ever be more? Let's first see if it survives it's founders.
Gaius Lupinius
Festus
|
| Subject: |
A Temporal Nova Roma |
| From: |
Megas-Robinson amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:00:35 -0700 |
|
Salus Et Fortuna Omnes, Salve!
Every People dreams of a day when they shall put roots into Land of
their own.
My personal goal is to obtain enough property for a home, a garden, a
small Trading Post, Tavern and Temple.
It is not unrealistic, in my view, for a larger group to want a place
to set up a State to support the Nation. As the Mother City existed for
many lifetimes, and was created over many more lifetimes, I think that
we can, in our serious moments, envision a long-term goal of a new State
to support the Nation we are building.
We can but lay a foundation stone in this, the early days, of Nova
Roma. I think the attainable goal while I breathe, is to help shape the
Nation that our descendants will be proud to acknowledge as theirs, and
it will be their choice and duty to build the State.
I am an American by birth, and by choice. I don't see another country
in which I would choose to live and give over my allegiance.
There are private and personal relationships I choose to form. After
investigating Nova Roma, through the Webpage and correspondance with F.
Vedius Germanicus, I chose to apply for Citizenship. I am a member of
other Retro-Heathen organizations (R-H: Heathen Religions based on the
best available documentary and archaeological information) which
appertain to my Profession to the Aesir and Vanir of Scandinavia and
Northern Germania. I am a Free-Holder from just beyond the settled
areas that I visit. I strive to be welcome at Trading Post, Tavern and
Temple.
I am glad that I web-cruised into Nove Roma. I thoroughly enjoy the
discourse and hope I contribute.
May All Our Gods continue to Bless Us and Nova Roma!
Stephanus Ullerius Venator, Citizen and Paterfamilias
aka
Steven Ullrsson, Ullrsgothi and Traveller
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
pythia kingan@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:22:19 +0000 |
|
I
> Pythia, I have to say that yours is a peculiarly weakly supported
> assertion and a disturbing question. The Christians didn't bring down
> Rome -- the Romans did. And are you suggesting by your question to Festus
> that one should be rabidly anti-Christian to be a Nova Roman?
>
> L. Sergius Aust.
No, I am just stating my opinion, and it seemed to me that Festus was stirring
up
the nest when he first started the thread. It was a bitter little missive, and
it
merrited a bitter little answer....
Pythia
--
_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:
Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
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<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:17:25 PDT |
|
>The imaginitive picture of a new Roman Forum serving as a research
center, and
>as a religious center for Roman style pagans {I would also hope
Christian and
>Jewish Romans would add some chapels and synagogues to round the
picture out}
>is a very pretty picture. But again, let's look at it pragmatically.
>Classical studies are already being carried out very well in classical
studies
>departments in universities and liberal arts institutions. There are
also a
>plethora of fine scholars out there. I am sure everyone has a
favorite. And
>research in other areas, such as medicine and the physical sciences are
also
>booming in these non-Roman institutes. Why spend the resources trying
to re-
>invent the wheel, when it is extremely unlikely that the New Rome would
come
>anywhere close to matching, let alsone leading the world in such
endeavors?
Because not one of those scholars is a Roman.
>I think the better and more practical way to imagine and plan for Nova
Roma's
>future is to ask one central question: What can Nova Roma offer that
the
>other nations, colleges, research institutes, and labs cannot offer?
The
>possible answers to that question are the directions future planning
should
>take.
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your
country."
>One of the replies to my original note on this subject mentioned having
a
>place where pagans could be pagans without risk of persecution. Those
were
>not the exact words used, but the point was there. If this is a
motivation
>for some, than i answer, "calm yourselves". There is nothing at all to
>prevent anyone here, pagan or not, to carry out such worship if you so
desire.
>Unless one wishes to revert to animal and human sacrifice, or
re-institute the
>orders of temple prostitutes {such as the Mellisae} or introduce the
use of
>illegal narcotics into worship, Nova Romans should have no problems
with the
>state. I do not know of any citizens in Iran,where such trouble should
be
>expected. It is just that the idea of having a "refuge" in case of
legal
>persecution seems to me to smack of a bit of hysteria. I have plenty
of faith
>in the saftey of religious liberty in my country.
I don't know what country you live in, Feste, although I suspect it's
America, which is also my patria. But I have to say, that while in
America pagan worship is protected by law, in other countries it's not.
You mention Iran, as if such nations are rare, but do you know that the
worship of the Greek gods is illegal in . . . Greece? Sure is.
--M. Gladius Saevus
|
| Subject: |
Re: A Temporal Nova Roma |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:24:56 -0400 |
|
Megas-Robinson wrote:
>
>
> Vedius Germanicus, I chose to apply for Citizenship. I am a member of
> other Retro-Heathen organizations (R-H: Heathen Religions based on the
> best available documentary and archaeological information) which
> appertain to my Profession to the Aesir and Vanir of Scandinavia and
> Northern Germania.
Ave, Stephanus.
Retro-Heathen? I've never heard this before, but how delightfully
descriptive. I like it a lot better than Neo-Pagan. However, as one who
tries to follow the Religio Romana as closely as possible, I just like
to think of myself as Pagan. Plain old vanilla pagan, practicing a
religion that shouldn't have died out -- and seems not to have!
Vale,
F. Claudia Juliana
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:30:06 PDT |
|
>Yes. A virus which infected people into believing the Emperor was just
a man
>after all, and not a god. A virus which reduced the number of "johns"
the
>Melssisae and similar "priestesses" could rent themselves out to, in
the name
>of some goddess of love. A virus which did not have such "religious
rites" as
>the circuses and bestiarri.
>Gibbon's naive view is passe now.
Very few Emperors ever made the claim to godhood. The offerings usually
were made to the Genius of the Emperor, and not the Emperor himself.
That "some goddess of love" is still respected by some of us. I do not
speak dismissively of your religion, and I respectfully ask that you do
the same. The practices of her worship may be inappropraite, but that
doesn't mean the goddess herself is less holy.
And let us remember that those same religious rites were condemned, in
their day, by pagans as well as chrisitans. And what do we have now?
Jerry Springer, and he doesn't even have the pretense of religion.
Secular violence has replaced sacred violence, and how is this better?
--M. Gladius Saevus (two inches away from miffed)
|
| Subject: |
Re: In Dreamland? |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:53:25 -0400 |
|
Ira Adams wrote:
>
> From: Ira Adams iadams@--------
>
> Actually, What Nova Roma proposes to do very closely follows the model of
> the founding of modern Israel which, as a matter of fact, didn't involve
> any "bloody fight taking the land from its inhabitants,...." We might be
> well advised to learn from their experience, rather than reciting phoney
> Arab propaganda.
But we probably shouldn't take our history lesson from "Exodus, The
Sequel" either; the revisionist Zionist histories. Israel had to fight
for freedom as fiercely as any other nation, including America. As far
as a "moral" claim -- maybe and maybe not, but this is to overlook the
more seriously important fact that with a nation to represent them among
world powers, the Jews will never again have to face what happened in
1938. They now have the muscle -- and the inevitable corruption that
goes with it.
Interesting that you're only a 'terrorist' unless you lose. If you WIN,
you're a "freedom fighter" and you get a statue! Maybe a fancy tomb at
state expense, too! Among the winners, Sulla, George Washington, William
Tecumseh Sherman, and Ben-Gurion. I suppose I must add that George
Armstrong Custer is an exception. The egotistical jerk disobeyed orders
and lost but he's still a hero in the history books.
> your breath -- you people crucified Jesus, remember (the Jews have
> already been officially forgiven -- the Romans haven't).
>
Oh dear...how can I possibly survive in this world without an official
pardon from the Pope? Himself a "freedom fighter" if I recall...
> If you're serious about wanting to become a real world nation, you might
> better take a good look at the real world you're proposing to be a nation
> in. Comrade Stalin was simply implying real world facts when he remarked
> "How many divisions has the Pope?"
Oh, probably as many as Stalin himself had after he murdered about a
third of his own people.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> vita brevis sed amor longus, et amor omnia vincit.
>
>Good gods, where DID you get this terrific quote? Liz Taylor? Life may indeed
be short and Love may conquer all, but alimony lasts longer. And is much more
germaine to the "real world."
F. Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:24:15 -0400 |
|
Patrick Dunn wrote:
>
> From: "Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
>
> >Yes. A virus which infected people into believing the Emperor was just
> a man
> >after all, and not a god.
But convinced people that a Nazarene carpenter and dissenter WAS god.
A virus which reduced the number of "johns"
> the
> >Melssisae and similar "priestesses" could rent themselves out to, in
> the name
> >of some goddess of love. A virus which did not have such "religious
> rites" as
> >the circuses and bestiarri.
> >Gibbon's naive view is passe now.
But a virus that could and did torture and murder it's own followers as
witches at public rites conducted with all the dignity of sideshow
carnivals, condoned Popes who murdered other churchmen, poisoned
Cardinals, and sacked and destroyed entire cities. Glass houses and
stones, folks. Everyone has them.
>
> Very few Emperors ever made the claim to godhood. The offerings usually
> were made to the Genius of the Emperor, and not the Emperor himself.
>
> That "some goddess of love" is still respected by some of us. I do not
> speak dismissively of your religion, and I respectfully ask that you do
> the same. The practices of her worship may be inappropraite,
Inappropriate to whom? Wonder who first decided that prostitution was a
sin? Probably not priestesses of Venus, who were honored as healers of
the sick. Probably not Mary Magdalene. And probably not Theodora or
Constantine's mother Helena, who started their careers as temple
harlots. Not unlike Eva Peron, I suppose.
Good old Hesiod said that the sacred prostitutes mellowed the behavior
of men. Mary Magdalene said of her co-workers, "not only are we
compassionate of ourselves, but we are compassionate of all the race of
mankind."
>
> And let us remember that those same religious rites were condemned, in
> their day, by pagans as well as chrisitans. And what do we have now?
> Jerry Springer, and he doesn't even have the pretense of religion.
> Secular violence has replaced sacred violence, and how is this better?
>
> --M. Gladius Saevus (two inches away from miffed)
>
I beg to differ. Sacred violence is still very much among us. Been to
the Mid-East lately? Or West Africa? Or closer to home, those
church-burnings and synagogue bombings aren't very secular.
Saevus, here's a tape measure....
F. Claudia Juliana
|
| Subject: |
Re: In Dreamland? |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:26:13 -0400 |
|
Ira Adams wrote:
>
> From: Ira Adams iadams@--------
>
> Sheesh, Claudia! Does the old Latin phrase "non sequitur" have meaning
> for you?
>
Absolutely none at all. However, "cave canem" does. "Beware the bitch"
is always good advice.
-- Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
AstUsari@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:28:12 EDT |
|
I was not aware that worship of the Greek gods is illegal in Greece. Can you
refer me to the specific law or to your source? The reason I am asking is
that I checked the Greek Constitution:
"Article 13 [Religion]
(1) The freedom of religious conscience is inviolable. The enjoyment of civil
and individual rights does not depend on the religious conviction of each
individual.
(2) Every known religion is free and the forms of worship thereof shall be
practiced without any hindrance by the State and under protection of the law.
The exercise of worship shall not contravene public order or offend morals.
Proselytizing is prohibited.
(3) The ministers of all religions are subject to the same obligations towards
the State and to the same state supervision as the ministers of the
established religion.
(4) No person shall, by reason of his religious convictions, be exempt from
discharging his obligations to the State, or refuse to comply with the laws.
(5) No oath shall be imposed without a law specifying the form thereof."
If there is such an illegality, it must be based on one of the loopholes in
section 2, which states that all known religions are free.
One last remark here..
You had said that not one of the classical scholars is a Roman. But neither
are Nova Romans "Roman", except in that they have joined Nova Roma. This
ceretainly does not give them an advantage or superiorty. Would Michael Grant
be any more competent if he joined Nova Roma?
{pssst...has anyone out there ASKED Mr. Grant to join? If anyone knows him,
perhaps a flyer could be sent to him}
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:36:01 PDT |
|
>Patrick Dunn wrote:
No, I didn't.
>> From: "Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
No, it's not.
Now *this* I did say:
>> Very few Emperors ever made the claim to godhood. The offerings
usually
>> were made to the Genius of the Emperor, and not the Emperor himself.
>>
>> That "some goddess of love" is still respected by some of us. I do
not
>> speak dismissively of your religion, and I respectfully ask that you
do
>> the same. The practices of her worship may be inappropraite,
>
>Inappropriate to whom? Wonder who first decided that prostitution was a
>sin? Probably not priestesses of Venus, who were honored as healers of
>the sick. Probably not Mary Magdalene. And probably not Theodora or
>Constantine's mother Helena, who started their careers as temple
>harlots. Not unlike Eva Peron, I suppose.
You'll notice "may". I wasn't going to argue that point, since I don't
care and didn't consider it germane to the conversation. Nor do I think
that this form of worship could be reinstated in the United States at
this time.
>Good old Hesiod said that the sacred prostitutes mellowed the behavior
>of men. Mary Magdalene said of her co-workers, "not only are we
>compassionate of ourselves, but we are compassionate of all the race of
>mankind."
Hesiod may have said that -- he said a lot of things. As far as Mary
Magdalene -- I thought she was Jewish, not hellene?
>> And let us remember that those same religious rites were condemned,
in
>> their day, by pagans as well as chrisitans. And what do we have now?
>> Jerry Springer, and he doesn't even have the pretense of religion.
>> Secular violence has replaced sacred violence, and how is this
better?
>>
>> --M. Gladius Saevus (two inches away from miffed)
>>
>I beg to differ. Sacred violence is still very much among us. Been to
>the Mid-East lately? Or West Africa? Or closer to home, those
>church-burnings and synagogue bombings aren't very secular.
This doesn't even answer my point. Has, in fact, nothing to do with it.
What moslems do doesn't have anyting to do with my point, since neither
the Romans nor Paul was Moslem, nor is the U.S. culture as a whole.
What fanatic bigots burning churches do has nothing to do with my point.
Nor do those same bigots bombing synagogues.
The point was, the romans condoned ritualized violence for the sake of
religion. My point is, we condone ritualized violence for the sake of
itself in our culture, and that doesn't make it any better.
>
>Saevus, here's a tape measure....
Thanks.
--M. Gladius Saevus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:40:36 -0400 |
|
Salvete Quirites
My dear Festus
The journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single step.
>>when it is extremely unlikely that the New Rome would come
>>anywhere close to matching, let alsone leading the world in such
endeavors?
>
>Because not one of those scholars is a Roman.
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:44:53 PDT |
|
>>(1) The freedom of religious conscience is inviolable. The enjoyment
of civil
>>and individual rights does not depend on the religious conviction of
each
>>individual.
>>(2) Every known religion is free and the forms of worship thereof
shall be
>>practiced without any hindrance by the State and under protection of
the law.
>>The exercise of worship shall not contravene public order or offend
morals.
>>Proselytizing is prohibited.
>Seems to me that the second line of Section 2 effectively cancels out
>Section 1 -- it seems to say, in effect, "any religion we don't like or
>approve will not be permitted."
>
>L. Sergius Aust.
It's certainly not "congress shall make no laws respecting . . . " blah
blah.
As far as sources go, I'll get back to you. Got to see if my Greek
friend is still at the Greek embassy in Argentina, or if they moved him.
--M. Gladius Saevus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
AstUsari@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:45:12 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/13/98 9:40:48 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
iadams@-------- writ--------br>
<< >Proselytizing is prohibited.
Seems to me that the second line of Section 2 effectively cancels out
Section 1 -- it seems to say, in effect, "any religion we don't like or
approve will not be permitted." >>
Seems to, or does? Do you know the specific law outlawing worship of the
Greek gods, or do you have handy your source? This matter does interest me,
in light of a quarrel I have had with some Eastern Orthodox persons on AOL.
Gaius Festus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:49:09 -0400 |
|
This is getting so spirited that I can't even tell who's quoting whom.
But it's certainly interesting!
When are you people going to get as prolific for The Eagle, is what I'd
like to know? By the way, you subscribers, it's being mailed this
weekend, so watch for it.
-- F. Claudia,
Thinking of reviving the worship of Shep.
(Larry & Moe, too)
|
| Subject: |
Re: Sacred ho's |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:51:44 -0400 |
|
> Seems to me that the second line of Section 2 effectively cancels out
> Section 1 -- it seems to say, in effect, "any religion we don't like or
> approve will not be permitted."
>
Doesn't the Religious Right want a law like this?
Pat Robertson -- talk about a sacred prostitute.
-- Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
pythia kingan@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:06:54 +0000 |
|
>
> -- F. Claudia,
> Thinking of reviving the worship of Shep.
> (Larry & Moe, too)
Bow your heads and say: Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
--
_______________________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
AstUsari@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:10:03 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/13/98 9:30:07 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m--------oon@-------- wr--------:
<< Glass houses and
stones, folks. Everyone has them. >>
Claudia love, that was precisely the point I was trying to make to Pythia! If
pagans like Pythia are going to point fingers, then they must accept the
bloodbaths in their own houses. Soooo....if Paul introduced a virus, then why
be upset when the exploitations and mayhem of pagan religion are mentioned?
Look, I worship no deity at this time. So let me ask you a question in all
honesty.
When you look at the unsavory incidents in both Christain and Pagan history,
the murder of pagan Hyapatia and the muder of Christian Catherine {both in
Alexandria within a few years of each other} and unflinchingly look at both
your bloody hands, what on earth is the difference between you and them?
This question is very important. Since both religions reak of blood and have
thrown their stones at their own glass houses, what then makes you any
different. In other words, why would you still commend one religion over the
other?
By the way....as an aside, there is no evidence whatsoever that Mary Magdalene
was a prostitute. And where did you get that alleged quote of hers?
Regarding Hesiod, he said many things about women. And they were worse than
any Biblical statement on the subject. The man distrusted and disliked women
to such an extent that he could be president of the Lil Rascals He-Man Woman
Haters Club.
Gaius Festus
|
| Subject: |
Clarification for Claudia |
| From: |
AstUsari@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:34:02 EDT |
|
Dear Claudia,
After I hit SEND on my last note to you, I thought I should have modified
it a bit. I just want to stress here that when I made reference to "your
hands" being bloody as the Christians hands, I am of course not speaking of
you personally. The question was merely to compare Roman paganism and
Christainity in general, and not to throw any mud on a particular person.
Festive Festus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:53:08 -0400 |
|
AstUs---------------- wrote:
>
>
> Look, I worship no deity at this time.
What? Not even Kenneth Starr?
So let me ask you a question in all
> honesty.
> When you look at the unsavory incidents in both Christain and Pagan history,
> the murder of pagan Hyapatia and the muder of Christian Catherine {both in
> Alexandria within a few years of each other} and unflinchingly look at both
> your bloody hands, what on earth is the difference between you and them?
>
> This question is very important.
Actually, it isn't important at all, since it has no possible answer.
What you're dealing with here is religious belief, which has no basis in
fact whatsoever. Religion is man-made, not divinely ordained, no matter
whether the pronouncements came from Apollo's oracle or Moses and his
tablets or Joseph Smith and the Angel Moroni. So to prefer one religion
over the other is about the same as to prefer chocolate over vanilla.
Which is the "correct" flavor? Whichever one satisfies you the most,
obviously.
I'd as soon go to war over chocolate vs. vanilla than catholic vs.
protestant vs. pagan. And it's about as meaningful, in the end. And yet,
it never stops. Having had a Catholic ancestor who was murdered by a
Protestant for religious and political reasons colors my thinking on
this, naturally.
Since both religions reak of blood and have
> thrown their stones at their own glass houses, what then makes you any
> different. In other words, why would you still commend one religion over the
> other?
I don't commend one. I PREFER one. Specifically the worship of Vesta. My
privilege. And since Nova Roma's literature states that one of its goals
is the restoration of the Religio Romana, I agree with that goal. What
makes me different is that I don't murder anyone for religious reasons.
Maybe I should start? Am I missing a trend?
>
> By the way....as an aside, there is no evidence whatsoever that Mary Magdalene
> was a prostitute. And where did you get that alleged quote of hers?
Marjorie Malvern, VENUS IN SACKCLOTH, S. Illinois Univ. Press, 1979
>
> Regarding Hesiod, he said many things about women. And they were worse than
> any Biblical statement on the subject. The man distrusted and disliked women
> to such an extent that he could be president of the Lil Rascals He-Man Woman
> Haters Club.
>
Oh, well then...that certainly negates any worth to his writings. We
should burn them. Along with Paul's? Might as well throw in that
man-hater Friedan, too.
-- Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Clarification for Claudia |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:55:07 -0400 |
|
AstUs---------------- wrote:
>
> From: AstUs----------------
>
> Dear Claudia,
>
> After I hit SEND on my last note to you, I thought I should have modified
> it a bit. I just want to stress here that when I made reference to "your
> hands" being bloody as the Christians hands, I am of course not speaking of
> you personally. The question was merely to compare Roman paganism and
> Christainity in general, and not to throw any mud on a particular person.
>
> Festive Festus
What a RELIEF!!! I thought you'd found out something!
C'mon Festus, I'm having a good time, here! Haven't had such interesting
e-mail since I got off that x-rated list!
Acquitted,
F. Claudia
|
