Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 03:22:37 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 AstUs---------------- wrote:

> From: AstUs----------------
>
> Hi everyone.
>
> I enjoyed reading through all the replies and seeing the differing views being
> offered.
> So, here I go again!
>
> The imaginitive picture of a new Roman Forum serving as a research center, and
> as a religious center for Roman style pagans {I would also hope Christian and
> Jewish Romans would add some chapels and synagogues to round the picture out}
> is a very pretty picture. But again, let's look at it pragmatically.

I thought we were. You disagree but your pragmatism is not necessarily any
more practical. I am curious, do you *object* to the idea of a physical
center for Nova Roma? You seem very strongly against the idea. Even if it
is not "pragmatic" in your view, what is wrong with the goal, as long as
it does not interfere with our other activities? I for one would like to
see us as something more than a "cool" discussion group.


> Classical studies are already being carried out very well in classical studies
> departments in universities and liberal arts institutions. There are also a
> plethora of fine scholars out there. I am sure everyone has a favorite. And
> research in other areas, such as medicine and the physical sciences are also
> booming in these non-Roman institutes. Why spend the resources trying to re-
> invent the wheel, when it is extremely unlikely that the New Rome would come
> anywhere close to matching, let alsone leading the world in such endeavors?

In none of those institutions will you see an active temple to any of the
Gods of Rome or a view of Roman culture as anything more than something in
the dead past which is interesting to study. I for one would like to see
working temples--it was an impetus for the founding of Nova Roma. Frankly
there are not enough Roman Pagans around for there to be a temple in every
community but it would be nice to know there are some *somewhere.* It is
not meant to be a haven for the "hysterical" from persecution but a place
to go to be among like minded people. To have a small place, somewhere in
the world where we know the temples stand again and where Roman culture
can be seen and lived and not just studied. Sure, it won't always be
gotten right, but I think that perhaps a greater inkling of what it felt
like to be a Roman could be gotten from such a place. (this would
especially be a benefit to the non-pagans who would not be interested in
the religious aspects)

> I think the better and more practical way to imagine and plan for Nova Roma's
> future is to ask one central question: What can Nova Roma offer that the
> other nations, colleges, research institutes, and labs cannot offer? The
> possible answers to that question are the directions future planning should
> take.

I hope I answered that somewhat in the above paragraph.

> One of the replies to my original note on this subject mentioned having a
> place where pagans could be pagans without risk of persecution. Those were
> not the exact words used, but the point was there. If this is a motivation
> for some, than i answer, "calm yourselves".

Nope, that was your misinterpretation. It's just the idea of a place where
Roman pagans can gather in an appropriate setting, period. Some religions
are blessed (or cursed) by their large numbers of adherents and the
ability to throw up their holy buildings everywhere. We are not. Think of
it as a mecca for Roman Pagans that we can face several times a day. (just
kidding) Obviously that is not all there is behind this idea, it must
appeal to a larger group of people, but that is at its core. The idea of a
little 108 acre plot of land being a refuge from persecution has never
been brought up and if there were true persecution would be no refuge
anyway. We have already agreed that Nova Roma will not have the true force
of a nation anyway.

> There is nothing at all to
> prevent anyone here, pagan or not, to carry out such worship if you so desire.
> Unless one wishes to revert to animal and human sacrifice, or re-institute the
> orders of temple prostitutes {such as the Mellisae} or introduce the use of
> illegal narcotics into worship, Nova Romans should have no problems with the
> state. I do not know of any citizens in Iran,where such trouble should be
> expected. It is just that the idea of having a "refuge" in case of legal
> persecution seems to me to smack of a bit of hysteria. I have plenty of faith
> in the saftey of religious liberty in my country.

You have torn up your straw man nicely. Very good. Since this is not an
issue, however, perhaps we can move on?


Palladius

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 03:38:31 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Ira Adams wrote:

> From: Ira Adams iadams@--------
>
> >1948 was the year. The experience of Israel is not one we want to emulate.
> >They had a bloody fight taking that land from its inhabitants, as a result
> >making themselves hated by their neighbors and a large chunk of the world
> >community. I would rather see something peaceful and legal or nothing at
> >all.
> >
> >
> >Palladius
>
> Salve Palladius et alii,
>
> Actually, What Nova Roma proposes to do very closely follows the model of
> the founding of modern Israel which, as a matter of fact, didn't involve
> any "bloody fight taking the land from its inhabitants,...." We might be
> well advised to learn from their experience, rather than reciting phoney
> Arab propaganda. People may be doing the same number on us someday.

Frankly I see a big difference between a small group of people planning on
creating a small temporal center for their community and a group of
terrorists fighting to eject the existing inhabitants from their land.

> If you're serious about wanting to become a real world nation, you might
> better take a good look at the real world you're proposing to be a nation
> in. Comrade Stalin was simply implying real world facts when he remarked
> "How many divisions has the Pope?" Nova Roma so far couldn't even levy a
> centuria, let alone a legio, and has renounced the use of force. Look
> around -- force is the only language in which real nations communicate -
> "erat in principio et nunc et in secula seculorum."

Oh Good Gods, a call to arms.I thought I was being silly. My point was
actually the shallowness of Stalin's remark. He understood only one thing:
force. However, the Pope (the office) and the Vatican both still stand.
Stalin is dead and so is his country while the Pope is viewed with greater
respect then any other office in the world (like it or not people, it's
the truth). One does not need those divisions to make a place in the
world. What, if any, impact we make on the world remains to be seen but it
will be through ideas.


Vale,

Palladius

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 03:50:49 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 AstUs---------------- wrote:

> From: AstUs----------------

> One last remark here..
>
> You had said that not one of the classical scholars is a Roman. But neither
> are Nova Romans "Roman", except in that they have joined Nova Roma. This
> certainly does not give them an advantage or superiorty. Would Michael Grant
> be any more competent if he joined Nova Roma?

Most historians consider Michael Grant a "pop writer." Entertaining but
not much depth of scholarship (perhaps I am being unfair though, his
audience is the general reader, not classicists. Hell, I admit I read his
works and his understanding is greater than mine) Your point is well taken
though. However, it may give him an insight into the Roman mind to be with
a group of nutcases like ourselves who we think we are Romans of a sort,
who are trying to bring a little of the culture they have read about all
their lives to life.


> {pssst...has anyone out there ASKED Mr. Grant to join? If anyone knows him,
> perhaps a flyer could be sent to him}

I know the idea was tossed about in the days before the launch of Nova
Roma to ask people like Mr. Grant or the novelist Colleen McCullough to
join. I don't know whether anything was ever done along those lines. If
anyone knows his address, send him a flyer!

Vale,

Palladius


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Nova Roma and academic historians.
From:	Claudia Aprica quinta_claudia_lucentia_aprica@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 06:33:13 -0700 (PDT)

---"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@-------- wrote:

> Most historians consider Michael Grant a "pop writer." Entertaining
but
> not much depth of scholarship (perhaps I am being unfair though, his
> audience is the general reader, not classicists. Hell, I admit I
read his
> works and his understanding is greater than mine) Your point is well
taken
> though. However, it may give him an insight into the Roman mind to
be with
> a group of nutcases like ourselves who we think we are Romans of a
sort,
> who are trying to bring a little of the culture they have read about
all
> their lives to life.
>

Speaking as a historian (OK, maybe not a professional as yet, but
just starting a D.Phil.), I have to say that I feel Nova Roma _has_
actually helped to enrich my studies since I became a citizen.
Sometimes, it's just in little ways - e.g. my son, Pavo, and myself
have been cooking up some recipes from Apicius, with a view to hosting
a Roman banquet some time for our British citizens. Now that I've
cooked and eaten dishes such as Mustacei (Must-cakes) and Pullum
Frontonianum (Chicken a la Fronto) myself, I know that references in
ancient sources to Roman food or cooking will always be just that bit
more vivid to me.
There's also the thrill I now get when I open a book on Roman
history, or visit a Roman site, in knowing that I am studying 'my'
people. I admit that that is largely psychological, but Nova Roma
gives me the freedom to claim a 'Roman' identity, and if that makes me
feel good, and inspires me in my studies, who can argue that that's a
bad thing?
The most important thing for me to do as a 'serious' (!)
historian is to make sure that I stay able to draw the line between
real history and Nova Roma. My job is to study the Romans, and sadly
the academic world has yet to include Nova Roma within that category!
Still, if it ever happens, you can count on me to write the first book
about the Rebirth of Roman Culture in the Late Twentieth Century!
Stay happy, people, and remember the strength of our nation lies
in unity, not bickering. The ultimate religion should be the
veneration of Rome and the state - what gods people choose to worship
really is secondary to this. I believe a Nova Roman is first and
foremost a person who loves Rome - that's how it works for me, anyway
(although in case anyone's interested for the sake of the argument, I
do also count myself a pagan).
Vale,
Aprica.
==
**********************************************************************
Drop in on my gens - <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133</a>
**********************************************************************

Subject:	Re: Official Languages AND Comitia Voting
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:42:22 -0400

Ave et Savete


>From: Mega--------bin--------amgunn@--------
>Salus et Fortuna, L Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus, et alia;
>
>I understood your proposal perfectly well. I voted in favor. I have
>been in on the formative stages of several organizations in the past.
>There are always roughshod growing pains.
>
This is my first "organization" since the boy scouts about 30 yrs ago.

>I voted in favor of "Latin and/or English" because I believe that we can
>be adult and agree on the proper circumstances for one, the other or
>both.
>
This is my contention as well.

>Latin is not actually a dead language as one correspondant stated, it
>has largely become embedded in English, Italian, Romanian, Spanish,
>etc... English is a de facto international language of
>industry, commerce, science and air traffic control.
>
Yup, I learned more english grammer in my first year of Latin than I did in
all my privious years of schooling.

>I think that, from observing their writing, our Citizens from the
>non-English as a first language world have as good as or better a grasp
>of the language than many Americans of my acquaintence.
>
I have no doubt that this may be true for me as well.

>This should be a non-issue, as the proposal only formalizes what I see
>in the Nova Roma site and the applicable posts.
>
That is what I thought!

>I shall descend the Rostrum now, who's next?
>Valete, S. Ullerius Venator


Thanks for your support.
Vale et Valete, L Equitius Cincinnatus

Subject:	Re: Official Languages
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:58:36 EDT

I, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus, paterfamilias of Gens Luciania, hereby vote
"no" on the proposed bid to make English and/or Latin the official language(s)
of Nova Roma based solely upon the ambiguous language of the proposed law. If
a new bid clearly defining the official use of English, Latin, both, or other
language should be admitted for a vote, I will gladly re-consider.

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus

Subject:	The Eagle
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:59:20 EDT

Hey...I never received my July issue of the newsletter! Did they go out? Did
anyone receive it?

Also...what about August's edition? Is that going out soon?

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:02:52 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 02:53:21 EDT, you write:

<< May 1948, being Jewish, that is an important date. >>

: ) Thanks for the history lesson! I'll file it in memory now! (Just two
years off..not too bad, eh?)

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:04:00 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 02:54:36 EDT, you write:

<< The experience of Israel is not one we want to emulate.
They had a bloody fight taking that land from its inhabitants, as a result
making themselves hated by their neighbors and a large chunk of the world
community. I would rather see something peaceful and legal or nothing at
all. >>

I totally agree and was not suggesting Israel as a model for our sovereignty.
Only mentioned it as an example of a dream-turned-reality by the work of
dedicated people.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:05:31 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 09:05:55 EDT, you write:

<< P.S., can Dex be our 'Priest of High Fashion"? >>

I whole-heartedly accept! GOLD LEMEE TOGAS FOR EVERYONE!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:08:44 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 17:55:13 EDT, you write:

<< However, its citizens also do not yet
pay taxes. >>


Taxes? No one said anything about paying taxes!!!! That's it...anyone for a
Dead Sea Tea Party? LOL

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:10:14 PDT

>Look, I worship no deity at this time. So let me ask you a question in
all
>honesty.
>When you look at the unsavory incidents in both Christain and Pagan
history,
>the murder of pagan Hyapatia and the muder of Christian Catherine {both
in
>Alexandria within a few years of each other} and unflinchingly look at
both
>your bloody hands, what on earth is the difference between you and
them?

Yes, pagans did some horrible thiings in the name of the gods. So did
Christians, in the name of their god. I *don't* hang it over their
heads, however -- for one thing, the Christians did very little actual
violence to the Greco-Roman pagans, and for another thing, what is past
is past.




>This question is very important. Since both religions reak of blood
and have
>thrown their stones at their own glass houses, what then makes you any
>different. In other words, why would you still commend one religion
over the
>other?

Oh. Is that what you think? That we choose religion based upon whether
or not its past was bloody? I *don't* commend paganism over
Christianity, except to say that for me, I feel closer to Sol Invictus
than Yahweh, to Dionysos than Christ. It is likely to be otherwise for
others; the gods are diverse enough to give each person their choice of
gods.

But why do I cling to my brand of paganism over Christianity, in the
face, in fact, of almsot absurd attempts to convert me? Because I
believe in the gods, I have faith in them, in the sense not only of
belief, but of trust. I have faith in the gods as I have faith in my
mother. Both will be there when I need them, the gods even more so.
And while some might ridicule, or prefer I hide the fact, or make jokes
(tu quoque, Rustice? ;) ), yes, I have religious experiences, some of
them perhaps even miracles, centered around the gods.


>Regarding Hesiod, he said many things about women. And they were worse
than
>any Biblical statement on the subject. The man distrusted and disliked
women
>to such an extent that he could be president of the Lil Rascals He-Man
Woman
>Haters Club.

While that might be true, the only evidence you have of it is his
poetry. That's what we in the writing game sometimes call "the
biographical fallacy." Don't ever assume a writer is necessarily
writing about his own opinions and events in his own life, or
Shakespeare was a black, Jew-hating, avenging prince, who killed his own
king at the urging of his wife.

--M. Gladius Saevus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:10:56 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 19:08:50 EDT, you write:

<< You could say that Jesus and Paul were both good friends of Rome. >>


"Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's...give unto God what is God's" -- J.C.


Don't know how Paul felt...frankly don't care! : )


--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:16:24 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 19:30:37 EDT, you write:

<< {I would also hope Christian and Jewish Romans would add some chapels and
synagogues to round the picture out} >>

Hmmm....I would have no problem with that provided that Roman Wiccans can also
set up temples of worship, etc. Currently, Nova Roma does not allow for the
formation of religious collegia, sodalicum (or whatever they're called) of
faiths other than those historical in ancient Rome (a practice I still don't
agree with).

Now...we are all getting ahead of ourselves so let's not incite feelings of
angst here. I just wanted to make a point of fairness for all! : )

Love and Light...

--Dexippus (Priest of High Fashion) <<Love It!!!!>>

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:20:44 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 19:46:37 EDT, you write:

<< A virus which infected people into believing the Emperor was just a man
after all, and not a god. >>


You mean Ceasar was a man? Damn! I don't know about a "god"...but anyone who
surrounds him/herself with numerous servants of exceptional beauty and
physique and commands the praise of millions will always be a Divine Diva in
my book!

--Dexippus

<<We're Divas...we have people for that!>>

Subject:	Re: Official Languages
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:21:09 PDT

>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>I, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus, paterfamilias of Gens Luciania, hereby
vote
>"no" on the proposed bid to make English and/or Latin the official
language(s)
>of Nova Roma based solely upon the ambiguous language of the proposed
law. If
>a new bid clearly defining the official use of English, Latin, both, or
other
>language should be admitted for a vote, I will gladly re-consider.
>
>--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus

hear hear!

And I agree completely. I object specifically to "and/or", a
construction that should not be used in formal writing, and would be
better of never appearing in our law-books, on the grounds that it's
completely ambiguous.

--M. Gladius Saevus

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:30:36 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 20:58:13 EDT, you write:

<< you people crucified Jesus, remember (the Jews have already been officially
forgiven -- the Romans haven't). >>

Well...that depends on who you ask. Catholics traditionally never blamed the
Romans (being of the heritage themselves)...it was always the Jews' fault.
I'm sure the Pope doesn't consider Pontious Pilate responsible. Neither do a
lot of fundamentalist xtians since the scriptures point to Pilate's
disagreement to execute Jesus over Barabbas. In Pilate's eyes, Jesus did
nothing wrong...but Barabbas was a murderer. According to scripture, the jews
would have rather a murderer go free than a man who claimed to be their king.
"We have no king other than Ceasar! Free Barabas" is the cry I recall from
Catechism (oh my gods...someone stop me!)


Regardless...an established Nova Roman state complete with religious
institutions would spark fundamentalist counter offensives since they believe
a revived Roman Empire will usher in the Anti-Christ and the battle at
Armageddon. (hey, it's a curse having an evangelical xtian as a brother)

<<(Edepol! Where did I put my scutum???)>>

Hmm...sounds like a personal problem. But if you misplaced your scrotum, I'll
help you find it! : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:34:49 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 21:06:49 EDT, you write:

<< And are you suggesting by your question to Festus
that one should be rabidly anti-Christian to be a Nova Roman? >>


Interesting...I don't think that is Pythia's intention. I for one am not
anti-christian but I wouldn't say I'd be waiving a flag at a Pope rally or a
Promise Keepers convention. However, I have always kept to the belief that
the fall of Rome, at least from a spiritual perspective, was caused by the
Roman's abandonement of the ancient Gods in favor of Christianity. It was a
well maintained belief of the ancient Romans that as long as the Gods were
given the proper daily sacrifice and worship, Rome would stand forever. With
mundane reasoning aside, the fall of the Empire occured when the state
religion was well established Christianity.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:35:21 -0500 (CDT)

Israel as a model.??? Maybe we should think of Nova Roma more in
terms of having a modified sort of Shaker community- at least in part.
They accepted all people and were a very productive community in their
heyday while being mostly autonomous within the confines of the U.S. The
only reason they are almost gone is because of the religious trappings
of celibacy in their beliefs. We could use a lot of what they did as a
model- in a very modified way. Use what works- to the point of having a
living vibrant community of some sort . Part of the mission of Nova
Roma is to rebuild the Religio Romana and I really couldn't think of a
better way.
Instead of being a drain on the treasury the goal would be to try
to make it self supportive or even profitable with an actual economic
base of some sort without being debased by a Disneyland atmosphere of
tourism- though some tourism would be good. It just seems to me to be a
much more realistic approach to actually transform a dream into physical
manifestation. Any comments???

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Re: A Temporal Nova Roma
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:36:19 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 21:27:31 EDT, you write:

<< Plain old vanilla pagan, >>

I prefer my pagans doused in chocolate sauce!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:40:02 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 21:30:34 EDT, you write:

<< The practices of her worship may be inappropraite, but that doesn't mean
the goddess herself is less holy. >>

Well...again, that depends on who you ask. I'm in the process of building a
shrine to Venus in my bedroom (obvious reasons folks...no gasping for breath
please). My view of Venus is not only that of a goddess of beauty and
emotional love but of sexual pleasure and gratification (non-violent of
course...please no rumors of rape or pedophilia!). But of course, this is an
individual view. Some prefer not to relate sex to a religious aspiration or
practice, others can't see how you can seperate the two.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:44:45 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 22:29:41 EDT, you write:

<< But convinced people that a Nazarene carpenter and dissenter WAS god. >>

Jesus was god? I thought Paul said he was "mod"? Damn...I keep getting my
New Testament confused with my GQ subscription!

<<Not unlike Eva Peron, I suppose.>>

Hey...leave Evita out of this! Don't cry for me Nova Roma!..... : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:45:46 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 22:30:08 EDT, you write:

<< "cave canem" does. "Beware the bitch" is always good advice. >>


Oh my Lords in Heaven, on Earth, and Below!!!!!! Can I borrow that quote?
It's FIERCE!!!!


--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:47:03 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 22:34:37 EDT, you write:

<< You had said that not one of the classical scholars is a Roman. But
neither
are Nova Romans "Roman", except in that they have joined Nova Roma. >>


I do have Roman blood in my veins! MAKE ME EMPEROR! PLEASE! : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:57:25 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-13 23:20:00 EDT, you write:

<< Since both religions reak of blood and have
thrown their stones at their own glass houses, what then makes you any
different. In other words, why would you still commend one religion over the
other? >>

If I may answer that...I don't commend one religion over the other...or any
religion for that matter. All paths lead to the Divine! And we can not
reason away whatever happened in the past, we can only accept it. My
adversity comes from what is going on in the present...surely it is the
Christian finatics that are attacking Paganism on all sides. It is very rare
that you see modern Pagans attacking a Christian's right to practice. Though
some Pagans may be vocal in attacking Christianity, I believe this comes from
the angst of being denied our own public worship. Does it make it right?
No...but it can be understood. I have not seen any Pagan organizations
established with a mission to "stamp out Christianity in all its forms" as do
some Christian organizations make claim to at times (i.e. The Christian
Coalition, Focus On The Family, Promise Keepers, etc.). My angst is doubled
by the homophobic and anti-gay agenda of these groups as well, but I still
respect their beliefs and to practice their religion in a manner deamed
fitting for them. Again, the past is the past...the future is yet to be
determined...all we have is the present!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Clarification for Claudia
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:59:44 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-14 00:05:39 EDT, you write:

<< Haven't had such interesting
e-mail since I got off that x-rated list! >>

I was wondering where you dissapeared to! : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:02:55 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 Dexippus@-------- wrote:

> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-08-13 02:54:36 EDT, you write:
>
> << The experience of Israel is not one we want to emulate.
> They had a bloody fight taking that land from its inhabitants, as a result
> making themselves hated by their neighbors and a large chunk of the world
> community. I would rather see something peaceful and legal or nothing at
> all. >>
>
> I totally agree and was not suggesting Israel as a model for our sovereignty.
> Only mentioned it as an example of a dream-turned-reality by the work of
> dedicated people.

Seen strictly from that vantage point, then yes, there is indeed a
similarity.

Palladius
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:06:02 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-14 14:10:21 EDT, you write:

<< yes, I have religious experiences, some of
them perhaps even miracles, centered around the gods. >>

I too! Let's form a club! : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:10:13 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Dean Troy wrote:

> From: dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)
>
>
> Instead of being a drain on the treasury the goal would be to try
> to make it self supportive or even profitable with an actual economic
> base of some sort without being debased by a Disneyland atmosphere of
> tourism- though some tourism would be good. It just seems to me to be a
> much more realistic approach to actually transform a dream into physical
> manifestation. Any comments???

Yes, after I mentioned tourism the other day I was thinking we don't want
it to turn into a Roman "theme park" like that which is being built in the
hills outside Rome. I don't want it to be living history but just living.
Still, I don't see such a place being self-supportive, tourim will have to
be a factor though not the only one supporting it.


Palladius



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:14:48 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 Dexippus@-------- wrote:

> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-08-13 22:34:37 EDT, you write:
>
> << You had said that not one of the classical scholars is a Roman. But
> neither
> are Nova Romans "Roman", except in that they have joined Nova Roma. >>
>
>
> I do have Roman blood in my veins! MAKE ME EMPEROR! PLEASE! : )

Ah Dex, you're not one of those Italians who are under the
mistaken impression they are descended from the Romans when for the most
part they are descended from the the Vandals, Visigoths and such? ;)


Palladius
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: Nova Roma and academic historians.
From:	Masterofhistory masterofhistory@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:20:01 -0700 (PDT)

I couldn't have said it better myself CA. Well put indeed.

Avidius Tullius Qf Callidus, Praedans
Paterfamilias, Gens Tullia

Subject:	Re: A Temporal Nova Roma
From:	Ricci razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:23:10 -0700

Dexippus@-------- wrote:
>
> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-08-13 21:27:31 EDT, you write:
>
> << Plain old vanilla pagan, >>
>
> I prefer my pagans doused in chocolate sauce!
>
> --Dexippus

With, or Withour Whipped Cream?

Ericius

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Ricci razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:23:26 -0700

Dexippus@-------- wrote:
>
> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-08-13 22:29:41 EDT, you write:
>
> << But convinced people that a Nazarene carpenter and dissenter WAS god. >>
>
> Jesus was god? I thought Paul said he was "mod"? Damn...I keep getting my
> New Testament confused with my GQ subscription!
>
> <<Not unlike Eva Peron, I suppose.>>
>
> Hey...leave Evita out of this! Don't cry for me Nova Roma!..... : )
>
> --Dexippus

Dexippus obviously has the healthiest and most wholesome approach to
this entire pile of caca.

Ericius

Subject:	Re: Official Languages
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:33:19 -0400

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Dunn saevvs@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 2:21 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Official Languages


Salvete
I would like to know where the original post was sent. If this is a
vote that was sent to the Censors then it is very inappropriate for a vote
to be posted on the list.
As to the ambiguous language, I have already said that is how I
MEANT to write it. So why do we still hear complants about it? Although I do
not see how "Either Latin and/or English" is ambiguous.
Who says "and/or" should not be used for formal (whatever that is)
writing? According to "A Writer's Reference" by Diana Hacker , pg.54.
"AND/OR avoid the awkward comstruction and/or EXCEPT in technical or legal
documents." In The Little Brown Handbook, 2nd Ed. pg.548."AND/OR is awkward,
and can be confusing. A sentence like "the decsion will be made by hte mayor
and /or the the counsil implies that either one or the other or both will
make the decision. If both will, use and; if either will, use or. Use and/or
only when you mean three options." AND.That is what I MEANT,all 3 options.
I never said that it wasn't "awkward". SO, can we drop this discussion
already?
Valete Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus



>From: "Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
>
>>From: Dexippus@--------
>>
>>I, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus, paterfamilias of Gens Luciania, hereby
>vote
>>"no" on the proposed bid to make English and/or Latin the official
>language(s)
>>of Nova Roma based solely upon the ambiguous language of the proposed
>law. If
>>a new bid clearly defining the official use of English, Latin, both, or
>other
>>language should be admitted for a vote, I will gladly re-consider.
>>
>>--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
>
>hear hear!
>
>And I agree completely. I object specifically to "and/or", a
>construction that should not be used in formal writing, and would be
>better of never appearing in our law-books, on the grounds that it's
>completely ambiguous.
>
>--M. Gladius Saevus

Subject:	Re: In Dreamland?
From:	Ricci razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:33:34 -0700

D. Iunius Palladius wrote:> > manifestation. Any comments???
>
> Yes, after I mentioned tourism the other day I was thinking we don't want
> it to turn into a Roman "theme park" like that which is being built in the
> hills outside Rome. I don't want it to be living history but just living.
> Still, I don't see such a place being self-supportive, tourim will have to
> be a factor though not the only one supporting it.
>
> Palladius

(May the Deities of my home and heart protect my neck as I stick it
out!)

So far as the "theme park" thought goes, I on't think anybody goes to
Graceland (or whatever it's called) who is not a believer in Elvis
Incarnate in all His forms.

Ericius.

p.s.
to all you archeoland ancient student types: think what furture digges
will make out of all those idols and icons of the Elvis? Especially the
disertations on the foot high Elvis statue booze bottles. Eh?
C.A.E.

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Ricci razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:38:37 -0700

D. Iunius Palladius wrote: > I do have Roman blood in my veins! MAKE ME
EMPEROR! PLEASE! : )
>
> Ah Dex, you're not one of those Italians who are under the
> mistaken impression they are descended from the Romans when for the most
> part they are descended from the the Vandals, Visigoths and such? ;)
>
> Palladius

Heh1 Palladius! They were f-----g someone. And what is a century or so
compared to over a millenium of Legionary R&R? Or is your next line
going to be that every wop has a n----r in the woodpile? Yeah. I'm
going to regret sending this.

Ericius

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:44:02 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Ricci wrote:

> From: R-------- razenna@--------
>
> D. Iunius Palladius wrote: > I do have Roman blood in my veins! MAKE ME
> EMPEROR! PLEASE! : )
> >
> > Ah Dex, you're not one of those Italians who are under the
> > mistaken impression they are descended from the Romans when for the most
> > part they are descended from the the Vandals, Visigoths and such? ;)
> >
> > Palladius
>
> Heh1 Palladius! They were f-----g someone. And what is a century or so
> compared to over a millenium of Legionary R&R? Or is your next line
> going to be that every wop has a n----r in the woodpile? Yeah. I'm
> going to regret sending this.

Huh?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	AstUsari@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 18:06:57 EDT

In a message dated 8/14/98 1:35:30 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Dexippus@-------- writes:

<< I have always kept to the belief that
the fall of Rome, at least from a spiritual perspective, was caused by the
Roman's abandonement of the ancient Gods in favor of Christianity. It was a
well maintained belief of the ancient Romans that as long as the Gods were
given the proper daily sacrifice and worship, Rome would stand forever. >>

Then how do you explain the fact that the Eastern Empire lived on for another
thousand years?

Gaius Lupinius Festus

Subject:	Kaiser Karl I / Charlemagne
From:	Matthew Peacock mpeacock@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:50:49 +0100 (BST)

Fellow Citizens,

NO, Dear Friends,

And especially Dexippus!

With
> mundane reasoning aside, the fall of the Empire occured when the state
> religion was well established Christianity.
>

Hmm, when did the Holy Roman Empire die out?

Emperor Franz II abolished it in 1806.

I think!

That wasn't a bad old innings.

I doubt that this message is going to get anywhere, I don't have
much luck with mailing lists. And a good thing too, cry the countless
thousands. I'm all for religious tolerance, can I just say that all
followers of all religions inevitably pick and choose the things they
like? As a Christian, I certainly do. I don't follow the Jewish law, you
see, and I think women should be priests even though St. Paul says they
shouldn't.

And that's what the pagans out there are doing. Go on, admit it!!
The Romans went in for syncretism, as is well known - but what did the
native tribes think of this conscious exercise in imperialism? Not much
more than the Jews thought when the Hellenistic kings tried to put their
own altars in the Temple, I'll warrant.

And all of you who say you're impartial, atheist historians can
stop laughing. All history is viewed through a person's subjectivity. So
there.

Oh, and I once had a dream of going and living with all my
friends in a log hut up a mountain. But I grew out of it by my eighth
birthday. Still, live and let live, that's my motto!

Have a nice Rome,

Marcus Claudius Lucentius Pavo

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 18:50:18 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-14 18:10:39 EDT, Gaius Lupinius Festus writes:

<< Then how do you explain the fact that the Eastern Empire lived on for
another
thousand years?

Basically, because the Eastern Empire was Byzantine rather than Roman. Rome
was the Western Empire, not the East. The city of Rome fell very soon after
the Vestals were expelled and the Altar of Victory was removed from the
Senate. Thereafter it ceased to be any sort of center of civilization or
power.

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Official Languages
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:37:24 PDT

>Salvete
> I would like to know where the original post was sent. If this
is a
>vote that was sent to the Censors then it is very inappropriate for a
vote
>to be posted on the list.
> As to the ambiguous language, I have already said that is how I
>MEANT to write it. So why do we still hear complants about it? Although
I do
>not see how "Either Latin and/or English" is ambiguous.
> Who says "and/or" should not be used for formal (whatever that
is)
>writing? According to "A Writer's Reference" by Diana Hacker , pg.54.
>"AND/OR avoid the awkward comstruction and/or EXCEPT in technical or
legal
>documents." In The Little Brown Handbook, 2nd Ed. pg.548."AND/OR is
awkward,
>and can be confusing. A sentence like "the decsion will be made by hte
mayor
>and /or the the counsil implies that either one or the other or both
will
>make the decision. If both will, use and; if either will, use or. Use
and/or
>only when you mean three options." AND.That is what I MEANT,all 3
options.
>I never said that it wasn't "awkward". SO, can we drop this discussion
>already?
> Valete Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus

Why is submitting a vote publically improper? I think everyone knows
how *I* voted on the issue. Although I do think that it should be
stressed that votes should be sent to the censors; let's keep everything
tidy, please.

And Cicinnate, I would sooner fall out of my toga in public than let you
have the last word -- let *anybody*, in the name of the Lord of Many,
have the last word! ;)

You meant three options? Then I object on the grounds that I don't want
official missives flying in Latin, because I (and the great majority of
us) cannot yet read Latin, and if I don't get that passive form of the
verb, I may *never* read Latin.

Here's what it said, and try not to let your dislike of me interfere
with your reason:

Three possibilities:

#1. Official communications may be written in English.

#2. Official communications may be written in Latin AND English.

#3. Official communications may be written in Latin.

Now, stop being an ass, and if you want the damned law to pass, reword
it to exclude #3 and I'll vote for it most happily.

--M. Gladius Saevus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:39:46 PDT

>D. Iunius Palladius wrote: > I do have Roman blood in my veins! MAKE
ME
>EMPEROR! PLEASE! : )
>>
>> Ah Dex, you're not one of those Italians who are under the
>> mistaken impression they are descended from the Romans when for the
most
>> part they are descended from the the Vandals, Visigoths and such? ;)
>>
>> Palladius
>
>Heh1 Palladius! They were f-----g someone. And what is a century or
so
>compared to over a millenium of Legionary R&R? Or is your next line
>going to be that every wop has a n----r in the woodpile? Yeah. I'm
>going to regret sending this.
>
>Ericius

Wow. I admire that -- to have one's tongue so firmly in one's cheek.
I'd end up biting my off, but then, I'm clumsy with my mouth. (Shut up,
Dexippe! I hear your thoughts!) *grins*

Seriously, most of us have Roman blood, probabily. My ancestors are
Irish and Germanic, but I bet at least *one* Roman soldier spent a night
in the arms of some red-headed Isabel in my family tree.

--M. Gladius Saevus

Subject:	Re: Kaiser Karl I / Charlemagne
From:	SDmtwi@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:02:41 EDT

> Hmm, when did the Holy Roman Empire die out?
> Emperor Franz II abolished it in 1806.

Of course, as Voltaire said, it wasn't any of the three....

T. Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	Re: Official Languages
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:50:28 -0400

->>Salvete

>> Who says "and/or" should not be used for formal (whatever that
>is)
>>writing? According to "A Writer's Reference" by Diana Hacker , pg.54.
>>"AND/OR avoid the awkward comstruction and/or EXCEPT in technical or
>legal
>>documents." In The Little Brown Handbook, 2nd Ed. pg.548."AND/OR is
>awkward,
>>and can be confusing. A sentence like "the decsion will be made by hte
>mayor
>>and /or the the counsil implies that either one or the other or both
>will
>>make the decision. If both will, use and; if either will, use or. Use
>and/or
>>only when you mean three options." AND.That is what I MEANT,all 3
>options.
>>I never said that it wasn't "awkward". SO, can we drop this discussion
>>already?
>> Valete Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus
>
>Why is submitting a vote publically improper? I think everyone knows
>how *I* voted on the issue. Although I do think that it should be
>stressed that votes should be sent to the censors; let's keep everything
>tidy, please.



Good! Sorry I received your posting before I received the Original. I don't
know how that happened.

>And Cicinnate, I would sooner fall out of my toga in public than let you
>have the last word -- let *anybody*, in the name of the Lord of Many,
>have the last word! ;)


I really don't care about the last word, but I am correct here.


>You meant three options?<<YOU BET'CHA>> Then I object on the grounds that
I don't want
>official missives flying in Latin, because I (and the great majority of
>us) cannot yet read Latin, and if I don't get that passive form of the
>verb, I may *never* read Latin.


Again, why would we ever do this, we want everyone to understand what is
going on. Think about this, if you received a message in a language you
didn't understand what would you do? Find out what it meant, ignore it,
throw it out. We're trying to get things done so why waste time sending
messages hardly anyone gets.


>Here's what it said, and try not to let your dislike of me interfere
>with your reason:


Good Grief! How did you come to the conclusion I have a dislike for you? As
a matter of fact I almost always agree with AND/OR (hehe) enjoy what you
have to say.


>Three possibilities:
>#1. Official communications may be written in English.
>#2. Official communications may be written in Latin AND English.
>#3. Official communications may be written in Latin.



You see some things should be in Latin, at the presant time Religious
things.


>Now, stop being an ass, and if you want the damned law to pass, reword
>it to exclude #3 and I'll vote for it most happily.
>--M. Gladius Saevus


You really didn't need to stoop to calling me an ass.

Vale et Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:08:14 -0700

Salus et Fortuna D. Iunius Palladius:

Regards your comment regarding the makeup of the background of the
current nationality know as Italian.

You are correct.

My mother claims Italian as her nationality. Research into our family
background does show Goths, Vandals, Lombards and Franks for ancestors.
It also shows Greeks and Romans (with indication of Latin, Sabine,
Umbrian and other tribal descent).

Some of these, in period, proudly claimed to be Roman, by virtue of
citizenship, birthright or earned. Rome was the power to emulate.
Regardless of who came later, a goodly part of current Italian Ethnics
can claim to be, culturally at least, of Roman descent to some degree or
another.

Because of a long search, along both Patrilineal and Matrilineal lines
of descent, I answered the call of the Scandinavian-Germanic Holy Ones.
I am particularly fond of Ullr. He is the Patron of Hunting, Archery,
Winter, Honorable Combat and Oath Giving, amongst other attributes.

Will this make me less of a citizen of the ethereal Nation of Nove Roma?
(Or an eventual Temporal State?) I think not. I shall absent myself
from public office because I have prior profession to the Aesir and
Vanir and could not fulfill the religious duties thereof. I will attend
Rites led by Priests of the Religio Romana, because I see the Holy Ones
of Olympus as southern cousins to my own Gods and Goddesses. I will
present my opinions and vote. Should there be a call in the future for
monetary support, I will help as resources allow. I may even found a
small Tavern and Shrine for wayward Germanics.

Right now, let's have some pleasure with the bringing to some fruition
of the goals established by the Founders of Nove Roma. Let us strive to
use proper Grammer, Rhetoric and Scriptoral skills in our communications
(and of course, a bit of Gaudia et Jocularia).

Nota Bene Omnes: I am thoroughly enjoying the discussions on the list
and the information give and take in the Forum.

May All the Holy Ones continue Blessings upon our efforts,

S. Ullerius Venator

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	Nathan Hicks moman@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:15:24 -0400

Palladius wrote:
>
> Ricci wrote:
> >
> > Palladius wrote:
> > >
> > > Ah Dex, you're not one of those Italians who are under the
> > > mistaken impression they are descended from the Romans when for the most
> > > part they are descended from the the Vandals, Visigoths and such? ;)
> > >
> > > Palladius
> >
> > Heh1 Palladius! They were f-----g someone. And what is a century or so
> > compared to over a millenium of Legionary R&R? Or is your next line
> > going to be that every wop has a n----r in the woodpile? Yeah. I'm
> > going to regret sending this.
>
> Huh?


We Aelii are cut from Juvenal's cloth, Deci: when native skill
declines, indignation crafts our verse.

Speaking of that man, it was he who said 'Iam pridem Syrus in
Tiberim defluxit Orontes et linguam et mores....' or 'For some
time already the Syrian Orontes has flowed down into the Tiber
and our language and our customs....'

I'm not a person to be politic with words, so I'll just say it:
the thinning of true Roman blood and culture by foreign peoples
and manners was the ruin of Rome. Juvenal foresaw this and we,
in our retrospection, must see the same. When a nation depends
upon the servitude of foreign races, it is ruinous more to the
conquerors than to the conquered.


Nathan Hicks
Cnaeus Aelius Rusticus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	AstUsari@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:56:02 EDT

Marcus,

The Byzantine Empire was part of the Roman Empire. It's laws were a
codification of Roman Law, and it's people thought of themselves as Romans
{they were all, save for slaves, Roman citizens, thanks to Caracalla} and
continued to think so after the Western half had fallen. What "de-Romanized"
them? Certainly not the fall of the actual city?!?! If possession of the
city makes one Roman, then Nova Romans are not Romans either. Was it the fact
that the Byzantine Empire was a Christian Empire? If so, then why not alter
the Nova Roma constitution to allow only worshippers of Roman gods to be
citizens?
The Byzantines certainly were Romans. If Nova Romans consider themselves
Roman by virtue of their emphasis on the word "nova", then remember that
Constantinole was called "New Rome" when it was innaugurated as the Imperial
Capital. The Byzantines have as good a claim, if not better, to be considered
Romans.

Gaius Festus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:59:30 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Nathan Hicks wrote:

&g--------rom: Na-------- Hicks moman@-------- >
> Palladius wrote:
> >
> > Ricci wrote:
> > >
> > > Palladius wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ah Dex, you're not one of those Italians who are under the
> > > > mistaken impression they are descended from the Romans when for the most
> > > > part they are descended from the the Vandals, Visigoths and such? ;)
> > > >
> > > > Palladius
> > >
> > > Heh1 Palladius! They were f-----g someone. And what is a century or so
> > > compared to over a millenium of Legionary R&R? Or is your next line
> > > going to be that every wop has a n----r in the woodpile? Yeah. I'm
> > > going to regret sending this.
> >
> > Huh?

> We Aelii are cut from Juvenal's cloth, Deci: when native skill
> declines, indignation crafts our verse.

Your skill has not declined by any means.

> Speaking of that man, it was he who said 'Iam pridem Syrus in
> Tiberim defluxit Orontes et linguam et mores....' or 'For some
> time already the Syrian Orontes has flowed down into the Tiber
> and our language and our customs....'

> I'm not a person to be politic with words, so I'll just say it:
> the thinning of true Roman blood and culture by foreign peoples
> and manners was the ruin of Rome. Juvenal foresaw this and we,
> in our retrospection, must see the same. When a nation depends
> upon the servitude of foreign races, it is ruinous more to the
> conquerors than to the conquered.

When I made my original comment, I had in mind a recent conversation, one
of several I've had, when explaining Nova Roma to people. On several
occasions people usually say "but since the Italians are *really*
descended from the Romans this should be something they should do" or
something along those lines. My response is usually that the Italians have
about as much Roman blood as the rest of us. Most of us are descended
*biologically* from the waves of barbarians who swept through the west.
Even by the fall of the empire, the original Roman stock was almost gone,
since it had been overwhelmed by the masses of people brought to Rome as
slaves over the centuries. You quote Juvenal's famous quote about the
Syrian Orontes flowing into the Tiber and where he lamented that in all
quarters of Rome, Greek was as prevalent as Latin. The barbarian invasions
simply finished the job of wiping out the Romans biologically. However,
culturally Rome survived and we are *all* heirs to that legacy. Some in
Europe may live among the actual ruins of Rome but their legacy too is
primarily cultural ad because they are descended from the Romans.

I guess those conversations were in the back of my mind when I responded
to Dex's comment about having Roman ancestry.

Palladius

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:05:37 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 AstUs---------------- wrote:

> From: AstUs----------------

> The Byzantine Empire was part of the Roman Empire. It's laws were a
> codification of Roman Law, and it's people thought of themselves as Romans
> {they were all, save for slaves, Roman citizens, thanks to Caracalla} and
> continued to think so after the Western half had fallen. What "de-Romanized"
> them? Certainly not the fall of the actual city?!?! If possession of the
> city makes one Roman, then Nova Romans are not Romans either. Was it the fact
> that the Byzantine Empire was a Christian Empire? If so, then why not alter
> the Nova Roma constitution to allow only worshippers of Roman gods to be
> citizens?
> The Byzantines certainly were Romans. If Nova Romans consider themselves
> Roman by virtue of their emphasis on the word "nova", then remember that
> Constantinole was called "New Rome" when it was innaugurated as the Imperial
> Capital. The Byzantines have as good a claim, if not better, to be considered
> Romans.

The Byzantines considered themselves Greeks with only a passing nod to
their Roman legacy. They spoke Greek, their art was Greek, they lived in
the Eastern Mediterranean which was always more Hellenic than Roman. Even
Julian, admired by many Roman neo-pagans barely spoke Latin. They always
saw a vast cultural difference between themselves and the west. This
continued long into the Christian era when they had nothing but animosity
and distrust for the west, even before the Crusades.

Palladius


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:06:35 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 AstUs---------------- wrote:

> From: AstUs----------------
>
> In a message dated 8/14/98 1:35:30 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> Dexippus@-------- writes:
>
> << I have always kept to the belief that
> the fall of Rome, at least from a spiritual perspective, was caused by the
> Roman's abandonement of the ancient Gods in favor of Christianity. It was a
> well maintained belief of the ancient Romans that as long as the Gods were
> given the proper daily sacrifice and worship, Rome would stand forever. >>
>
> Then how do you explain the fact that the Eastern Empire lived on for another
> thousand years?

You mean that Greek empire in the East? ;)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	AstUsari@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:49:52 EDT

Palladius,

Considering the huge influence Greece had upon Rome {to Cato's distress} isn't
it rather blind to speak of Roman and Greek as if they were two totally
different worlds? Put another way...what would Rome have been like WITHOUT the
Greek input?

However, I trust that you, since you do not consider the entire Eastern Empire
as worthy of the name "Roman" {try telling that to the REAL Romans, if they
were still alive today} would ask that Nova Roma's Territorial Claims be
altered so as not to claim any of the lands of the Eastern Empire.

Can't have it both ways folks!

By the way, so what if Latin was not widely used in the Eastern Empire. Most
Nova Romans don't know Latin either!

Gaius Festus

Subject:	Re: elvis in dreamland
From:	Ricci razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:22:53 -0700

m--------oon@-------- wrote:> >
> Oddly enough, for more scholarly clarification on this topic, see this
> month's EAGLE. Only $5 a year, such a bargain.
> -- F. Claudia
>

$5 a year! I thought Germanicus was hawking the Eagle for $3 a year.

Ericius

Subject:	Re: Official Languages
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:56:38 PDT

>>You meant three options?<<YOU BET'CHA>> Then I object on the grounds
that
>I don't want
>>official missives flying in Latin, because I (and the great majority
of
>>us) cannot yet read Latin, and if I don't get that passive form of the
>>verb, I may *never* read Latin.
>
>
>Again, why would we ever do this, we want everyone to understand what
is
>going on. Think about this, if you received a message in a language you
>didn't understand what would you do? Find out what it meant, ignore it,
>throw it out. We're trying to get things done so why waste time
sending
>messages hardly anyone gets.

This law could become practically permanent. Could you imagine, two
hundred years from now, an unscrupulous poliitician taking advantage of
the loophole in order to push through a bill? I certainly can.

>
>
>>Here's what it said, and try not to let your dislike of me interfere
>>with your reason:
>
>
>Good Grief! How did you come to the conclusion I have a dislike for
you? As
>a matter of fact I almost always agree with AND/OR (hehe) enjoy what
you
>have to say.

I presumed it by your downright angry dismissal of my perfectly good
points. Since it wasn't reasonable for you to be so curt in a civil
conversation, I assumed you had other reasons.

>
>
>>Three possibilities:
>>#1. Official communications may be written in English.
>>#2. Official communications may be written in Latin AND English.
>>#3. Official communications may be written in Latin.
>
>
>
>You see some things should be in Latin, at the presant time Religious
>things.

. . . Which are all also written in English, because while some of us
can pronounce Latin, we still can't read it fluently. So #1 and #2
still stand, without a need for #3.

>
>
>>Now, stop being an ass, and if you want the damned law to pass, reword
>>it to exclude #3 and I'll vote for it most happily.
>>--M. Gladius Saevus
>
>
>You really didn't need to stoop to calling me an ass.

You're right. I didn't. It was improper of me. I apologize.

--M. Gladius Saevus

Subject:	Re: Dreamland {cont} and Paul
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:08:22 PDT

Festus wrote:

>So, did Christianity bring about the fall of Rome? Hell no....the rot
was
>setting in long before Constantine {one of my heros, for his trying to
undo
>Diocletians bungling and naive tetrarchy}. Indeed, one may ask if the
failure
>of the gods to save Rome before the rot had spread is a sign of
impotence.

You've got *straaaaange* heroes.

It's not a sign of impotence. It's a question of whether the Roman
empire was still worthy of the gods. The gods don't turn away from
people any more than the sun winks out when I close my eyes. People
turn away from the gods. Rome abandoned the gods, and They, for
whatever reason, left Rome to its devices.

And what, pray tell, *was* this "rot"? Jerry Springer? Young children
killing each other? The whole nation arguing over whether or not Caesar
left a stain on Lewinski's toga? (yeah, she wore a toga, I betcha.
heh)

--M. Gladius Saevus