| Subject: |
Re: Modern Roman Fiction |
| From: |
"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:51:42 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 Oplonti--------... wrote:
> From: Oplonti--------...
>
> Salvete,
> The novels by Lindsey Davis are my favorites - fun and exciting, with a very
> good (for the most part) historical background. Saylor's books are good also.
> His "A Murder on the Appian Way" is a masterpiece. I haven't read McCullogh -
> had the impression that her books fell into the "romance novel" genre.
> Re the web site: I can't get in either.
I've only sampled Roman mysteries. I've read the first Lindsey Davis
novel, Silver Pigs. It was fair but I never felt any sense that she was
really trying to get the "feel" of ancient Rome, even one of her
interpretation. Of course, she admits the first few books were spoofs of a
sort of mysteries of the Spillane type (or so she says on her site) so
maybe I should read one of her later ones. I've been meaning to try the
Saylor ones but haven't yet. I've begun the SPQR series by John Maddox
Roberts finally and found that surprisingly good, far superior to the
Davis.
I believe McCullough is the best of the current Roman fiction. Her
scholarship is prodigious. Her glossary is longer than most other Roman
novels and she clearly knows her material. She owns the entire Loeb
library and makes good use of it. Her books paint a convincing and
thorough picture of everyday Roman life. If that is a Romance then it is a
romance but not in the sense you mean it. Any fiction set in the past is a
romance but it is not one in the "Harlequin" sense. Someone else here said
her novels are epic and I would agreen with that definition.
Palladius
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non scholae sed vitae discimus.
Seneca
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"
Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Modern Roman Fiction |
| From: |
p-------- p--------@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:16:22 -0400 (EDT) |
|
>Taste do vary. I find Saylor and McCullogh to be dry and not very "human" I
>feel Davis has better command of the basic human condition. We know that the
>Ancients had slang and base sence of humor on very day matters. But to each
>their own.
Absolutely! I like McCullough because she gives you the most information
about the religion and what the women were doing. They're not romance
novels - more like history-with-conversations.Yes, she builds Caesar up
into a semi-romantic hero and tries to ignore the gay side, but she never
does so at the expense of telling you what was happening in the battlefield
and in the Senate.
Patricia Cassia
"Men are from earth. Women are from earth. Deal with it."
|
| Subject: |
Re: Modern Roman Fiction |
| From: |
Oplontian@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:15:07 EDT |
|
Salvete,
OK, fellow citizens, you've convinced me. My next foray into fiction will be
to try a McCullough novel.
The first in the Davis series - Silver Pigs - is rather uneven. The later
novels are much improved. Saylor's writing gets better and better with each
new book. Their styles are rather different - Davis is light, fast, and
frothy (perhaps too much so, if you're not in the mood for it); Saylor is
deeper, slower, more thoughtful. The SPQR series by Roberts is good too -
closer to Saylor in style, but more hard edged.
As for McCullough - well, I guess I'm going to find out !
Valete,
Quintus Poppaeus Sabinus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Modern Roman Fiction |
| From: |
"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:42:25 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 Oplonti--------... wrote:
> From: Oplonti--------...
>
> Salvete,
> OK, fellow citizens, you've convinced me. My next foray into fiction will be
> to try a McCullough novel.
> The first in the Davis series - Silver Pigs - is rather uneven. The later
> novels are much improved. Saylor's writing gets better and better with each
> new book. Their styles are rather different - Davis is light, fast, and
> frothy (perhaps too much so, if you're not in the mood for it); Saylor is
> deeper, slower, more thoughtful. The SPQR series by Roberts is good too -
> closer to Saylor in style, but more hard edged.
> As for McCullough - well, I guess I'm going to find out !
I hope you enjoy them! Start at the beginning of the series, with the
First Man in Rome. Be prepared to put in time, they are long. When
I said her glossaries are longer than most other Roman novels I wasn't
comparing glossaries, I meant that her glossary alone is longer than most
entire novels! They are chock full of info.
Palladius
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non scholae sed vitae discimus.
Seneca
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"
Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.
|
| Subject: |
Roman Fiction |
| From: |
Masterofhistory masterofhistory@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:12:50 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve Nova Romans,
The list has been full of praise for the modern fiction series which
are set in Rome. Sad to say, I have not found these books in the
local stores yet. I do live in a backwards area so I am not too
suprised. Can we obtain copies from Amazon via the Nova Roma
bookshop?
Also, has anyone read the not-so-modern Roman fiction? I refer to, of
course R. Graves, his I Claudius and Claudius the God are standards.
For a look at late antiquity, his Count Belisarius is interesting,
though not as captivating as the Claudius set. Frazier's The Golden
Bough was very influential in its day but is a bit long for most in
the roaring 90s. Then there are a few book in this catagory whose
authors I cannot remember offhand: Quo Vadis (made into a movie w/
Peter Ustinov as Nero); and a series of two books about 3rd century AD
Rome, Aurelian, and the second titled Zenobia. These were written in
the last century I think and are a bit campy and ponderous but
nevertheless are interesting if you can find them.
Avidius Tullius Qf Callidus, Praedans
Paterfamilias, gens Tullia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Roman Fiction |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:19:37 -0400 |
|
>Salve Nova Romans,
>
>The list has been full of praise for the modern fiction series which
>are set in Rome. Sad to say, I have not found these books in the
>local stores yet. I do live in a backwards area so I am not too
>suprised. Can we obtain copies from Amazon via the Nova Roma
>bookshop?
>>Avidius Tullius Qf Callidus, Praedans
>Paterfamilias, gens Tullia
Avete Romani
Good idea!
I supose since I have all the books I should compile a list to send to
Germanicus [master of the web] . I'll start right away.
Anyone thinking of getting any of these books perhaps you could wait
for a few days.
Valete Lucius Equitius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Modern Roman Fiction |
| From: |
pjane pjane@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:55:53 -0400 (EDT) |
|
>I hope you enjoy them! Start at the beginning of the series, with the
>First Man in Rome. Be prepared to put in time, they are long.
Decius Iunius is right! I enjoyed several of the books in the series in
unabridged audio versions from Books On Tape. The reader, Donada Peters,
has a wonderful British accent, and she and McCullough between them have
kept me awake on many a long drive.
Patricia Cassia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Roman Fiction |
| From: |
pjane pjane@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:55:56 -0400 (EDT) |
|
>Then there are a few book in this catagory whose
>authors I cannot remember offhand: Quo Vadis (made into a movie w/
>Peter Ustinov as Nero); and a series of two books about 3rd century AD
>Rome, Aurelian, and the second titled Zenobia.
If anyone knows the author of Zenobia, let me know! I would very much enjoy
reading campy 19th-century fiction about her. My most enterprising cat is
named Zenobia...
Patricia Cassia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Roman Fiction |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:04:25 -0400 |
|
>The list has been full of praise for the modern fiction series which
>are set in Rome. Sad to say, I have not found these books in the
>local stores yet. I do live in a backwards area so I am not too
>suprised. Can we obtain copies from Amazon via the Nova Roma
>bookshop?
Look for them in the bookstore (that is, our bookstore, on the web site)
this weekend!
Germanicus
|
| Subject: |
Re: McCullough |
| From: |
Ricci razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:39:28 -0700 |
|
TLRegin--------.. wrote:
>
> From: TLRegin--------..
>
> In a message dated 8/16/98 12:18:05 PM, you wrote:
>
> <<
> But take it as you find it: McCullough is obstinate on the fact that
> Gaius Julius was *never* involved with guys. It was all a
> misunderstanding and/or vicious Senate gossip, she says. >>
>
> I find it hard to believe that Gaius Julius was not involved with guys
> because according to "A History of Sexuality, Vol. 1-3 by Michel Foucault" it
> was a very common thing to be involved with "boys". It was considered
> perfectly fine for an older man to take a young "boy" under wind for tutelage
> and love them.
> The hitch to this whole thing was that the man was always supposed to
> dominate and not submit. And the "boys" lost honor if they submitted. Now,
> Gaius Julius may not have submitted - but chances are, IMHO, he "tutored" a
> young "boy".
>
> Tertia Libertania Regina
I had thought of doing this as an article for "the Bird", but I had to
chime in here. In my readings, I've never come across what you say for
Romans. That older men took a boy under his tutelage and make love to
them. Your cited source is impressive, yet I'm not sure about it. For
some Greeks societies, yes. But not all of them, nor all periods. The
Spartans, Yes! I don't recall ever coming across this custom for Romans.
BUT...
BUT... The Romans did not think "much" of youths having "affairs",
"flings" with their their pals. At one point I was beginning to get the
impression these outhful games were considered almost normal, then the
sources dried up. All this is, of course, about the upper class, and it
was regarding Caesar's time. It was not considered "normal" for Roman
men (probably went for "respectable" ladies too) to let their emotions
carry them away. In one book, I think it was some dry scholarly thing
on family life (Roman), it was said that when the Romans said someone
was "effeminate" it was meant that they were letting their emotions rule
them. [Those of us who got to know the BBC Livia Augusta of I, Claudius
would not call Livia Augusta "effeminate".] Marcus Antonius supposedly
[all of this is "supposed"] was heavily involved with his best friend.
The Family didn't freak out until they began to talk about eloping to
Greece, or some other "more civilized" part of the world. They were
sent away to the army instead. Seperate armies, I assume. Love,
Romantic Love, was considered a desease. A type of mental illness.
Remember Catullus and Lesbia? Remember your first crush? (Ahhh! But it
was grand!)
This is not about being Gay. This is not about being Bisexual. This is
not about being heterosexual. Our terms would not be comprehensible to
the ancients. We must always keep in mind, Anceint Roma was an Alien
culture. Despite all that we have in common. Even after trimming away
the parts that do not apply to our times (e.g. slavery, the Games, etc.)
it is still alien. Like the morals of brutality, the morals of
sexuality were different from the ground up.
Okay. That article is defused. Now the rest of you may fire when you
are ready.
Caius Aelius Ericius
post scriptum:
Sorry about all the "__"s, but the terms are just so slippery, or
loaded, that I had to throw in those qualifying marks.
|
| Subject: |
Some resources |
| From: |
ngrotto@--------) |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:05:23 -0500 |
|
Salvete,
Just thought that other citizens might find these interesting:
I've been looking for a good book on learning Latin grammar, but most of
the ones that I've found were either too limited (quotation books) or
classroom textbooks. Then I stumbled across one at Barnes & Noble last
night called _Latin for People: Latin Pro Populo_ by Alexander and
Nicholas Humez. Not only is it a good instructional guide, it's also got
a good sense of humor (the last chaper is called "Ex Post Facto or, What
to Do Until Volume II Arrives in the Mail"). It runs about USD13. It
doesn't cover anything after the basics, but the authors recommend
pursuing what they call the "traditional course of study" after getting
the basics down: basic grammar, then Caesar's De Bello Gallico, then
Virgil's Aeneid, and so on.
I also found a company doing web hosting and development with the vaguely
reminiscent name of "Acta Divina." According to the company, this why
they chose the name:
"1. This was the name of a Roman newspaper published by the Roman
government. The Roman newspapers were posters placed on the walls of city
buildings. These newspapers told of army victories, new taxes, festivals,
and new laws.
"Acta Divina Technologies Corp. was incorporated in the province of
British Columbia in the country of Canada on May 18, 1998. With the goals
of becoming the largest Internet company. Currently Acta Divina provides
the services of Internet hosting, web design, web promotion and other
related services. The Acta Divina Network was introduced a few months
later, providing an all in one stop to the Internet. Thus providing an
easier way to browse the Internet and also providing many key services to
develop the Internet. Many people have spent their time to make the
growing site possible in the hopes of seeing the goals completed. And
they continue to view and participate in the seed that they planted. For
the roots of Acta Divina will some day reach over the expanse over the
Internet to every person. And its branches will carry those people beyond
the skies."
Not that this is specifically a plug for them, but I find it interesting
that the owners are planning to develop their network as the modern
equivalent to this newspaper. They seem to take the goal seriously --
they provide free hosting to technology and r&d companies and tend to
support anything which is cutting-edge in development (including
modifying their servers to support emerging technologies) or unique and
constructive in viewpoint.
Their url is <a href="http://www.actadivina.com/" target="_top" >http://www.actadivina.com/</a>
[the site is currently undergoing a full redesign, so not everything is
implemented yet]
Valete,
Manius Viaus Greco
|
| Subject: |
Re: Roman Fiction |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:07:26 -0400 |
|
Masterofhistory wrote:
>
> From: Masterofhistor--------sterofhistor--------..
>
> Salve Nova Romans,
>
> The list has been full of praise for the modern fiction series which
> are set in Rome. Sad to say, I have not found these books in the
> local stores yet. I do live in a backwards area so I am not too
> suprised. Can we obtain copies from Amazon via the Nova Roma
> bookshop?
>
> Also, has anyone read the not-so-modern Roman fiction? I refer to, of
> course R. Graves, his I Claudius and Claudius the God are standards.
> For a look at late antiquity, his Count Belisarius is interesting,
> though not as captivating as the Claudius set.
I had forgotten about Count Belisarus.It was recommended to me years ago
as one of Graves' most interesting books. Thanks for reminding me!
Almost anything is available through Amazon.com! Good luck!
- F. Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Modern Anceint & Roman Fiction |
| From: |
Ricci razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:19:51 -0700 |
|
m--------oon@-------- wrote:
> I had forgotten about Count Belisarus.It was recommended to me years ago
> as one of Graves' most interesting books. Thanks for reminding me!
>
> Almost anything is available through Amazon.com! Good luck!
>
> - F. Claudia
Others of Robert Graves's historical novels that I found along my path
of anceint questing are
Homer's Daughter -- not the best, but Graves's skill and
scholarliness are up to *his* par.
Hercules My Shipmate -- About the Golden fleece, as "history" and it
takes in a lot of the "hhistory" of the Myths.
Ericius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Some resources |
| From: |
Ricci razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:21:05 -0700 |
|
"Acta Divina" wasn't it "Acta Diurna"?
Ericius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Roman Fiction |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:37:35 -0400 |
|
>> suprised. Can we obtain copies from Amazon via the Nova Roma
>> bookshop?
>
>I had forgotten about Count Belisarus.It was recommended to me years ago
>as one of Graves' most interesting books. Thanks for reminding me!
>Almost anything is available through Amazon.com! Good luck!
>- F. Claudia
Salvete
If you have any book that you think would be of interest to 'Cives
Novae Romae', that Amazon.com carries make a list. Include title, author and
ISBN, and send to the webmaster, so we can put them in our list. That way
Nova Roma can reap some benefit.
Valete Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
|
