| Subject: |
Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 06 Sep 1998 00:38:31 -0400 |
|
The following proposal was sent to the College of Pontifices. It was the
opinion of one of the Consuls that it be posted to the list, although
the College of Pontifices has the last word to approve or disapprove.
I understand that there was a nasty argument on the List over the
Vestals at some time in the past. I joined after that, so I'm not privy
to what went on. I was told, however, that the opinion was that the
Vestals were an attempt by men to control women's spirituality. I doubt
that was true in Rome, but even if it was, Nova Roma's pontifical and
political structure is composed of women as well as men, and any office
is open to women. Nor is anyone being co-opted into the Vestals: it is a
VOLUNTEER organization. Virginity isn't a requirement, but a VOLUNTARY
vow of celibacy for a one year period is required, according to the
proposal. We are not playing "Vestal for the weekend" here: this is a
valid religious decision that a woman makes for herself.
Every attempt was made to adhere to historical accuracy, but this is an
organization particularly difficult to adapt for modern life.
Concessions must be made. However, a new Rome without an Order of
Vestals is missing a major part of Roman religion.
*******************************
The proposal is as follows:
To the College of Pontifices of Nova Roma I send greetings and this
proposal for the establishment of the Order of Vestals for Nova Roma.
-- Flavia Claudia Juliana
The Order of the Vestal Virgins was established at Mt. Alba by King
Numa. However, the practices of the priestesses of Vesta may have been
much older, but Numa (in good old Roman fashion and probably with advice
from his divine advisor, Egeria) formally established the organization
of the Order.
The duties of the Vestals were:
To tend the sacred fire of the Hearth of Rome, this Hearth being the
Temple of Vesta, and to carry the fire to the various Temples for the
sacrifices and lights.
To bring water to the Temple from the Well of Juturna for the services
of Vesta and the cleansing of the ritual objects.
To prepare the mola salsa (salt wafer) and the salt for ritual
sacrifices, although a Vestal could have no part in living sacrifices
To attend certain state rituals which required their presence, besides
their own rites. The private rites of Vesta were Mysteries kept entirely
within the Order. They also participated in the rites of the Bona Dea.
To have charge, with the Salii Priests of Mars, of all the sacred
objects of Rome
To offer public prayers for the safety of Rome and its citizens.
To keep the worship of the god Fascinus, who protects infants and
generals (all of the above from Pliny)
To remind the Rex Sacrorum of his sacred duty with the words "Are thou
on the watch, O king? Keep watch." (Servius)
To attend the following festivals: Parentatio; Lupercalia; Fornicalia;
Fordicia; Parilia; Bona Dea in May; Vesta;Consus; Ops Consiva; Jupiter;
sacrifice of the October Horse; Bona Dea in December
To perform religious duties including: Rekindling of the sacred fire in
March; Sacrifice to Vesta upon the election of the Pontifex Maximus;
gathering the first ears of corn for the mola salsa; throwing the Straw
Men into the Tiber.
To teach the rituals and Mysteries to new Vestals. For Nova Roma, this
may also include re-creating the rituals and ceremonies as closely as
possible to the originals.
The Order of Vestals for Nova Roma will carry out these ancient duties
as closely as possible, taking modern times into consideration. The
Order is a volunteer religious organization, and requires a commitment
to the Goddess Vesta.
The question of virginity
Oddly enough, the description of a virgin in Ovid, writing of Vesta, is
"Nor do you esteem Vesta to be anything but a living flame, and you see
no bodies produced from flame. Therefore she is truly a virgin, for she
sends forth no seed nor receives it..."
It is Plutarch's opinion that Numa thought that the nature of fire is
barren and brings forth nothing, so its care is fitting and proper to
virgins. Therefore, the idea of barrenness is as germaine to the Vestals
as virginity, virginity of necessity being a barren state. If we
consider virginity in that light, then the requirement of virginity in
the Nova Roman Vestals is somewhat served by a woman who has 1) not
produced children; 2) is not married or engaged during the term of her
service as a Vestal; 3) is not living in a conjugal relationship with a
man during her service as a Vestal; and 4) is willing to keep a vow of
chastity for the duration of her service as a Vestal. For Nova Roma,
this accommodation is probably as close as we can come. Actual virgins
are also welcome!
The Vestals were also considered to be "married" to the gods, therefore
the gods' human representative, the Pontifex Maximus, stands for the
gods as proxy in the ceremony between the Vestals and the deities, and
acts for the gods in accepting the Vestal in holy marriage. The Pontifex
Maximus is in the position of father, husband, and priest to the Order
of Vestals as a whole.
In Rome, girls from good families were adopted into the Order of
Vestals at about age 6 or 7, when they left their families and went to
live with the Order in the Domus Vestales. They served a term of 30
years: 10 spent learning, 10 spent in duties, and 10 spent in teaching.
At the end of that time, a Vestal retired with a pension from the State
and could marry, although marriage was rare.
For Nova Roma, including children in the order of Vestals could present
social problems that we just don't need. It has been suggested that the
Vestals are a way to include children in the Religio Romana, but Rome
had another provision for children, the Camilli and Camillae, children
who assisted at the religious rites of a particular god or goddess (sort
of the forerunners of altar boys). It might be a nice idea to revive
that order for Nova Roman children, but that would not be a function of
the Vestals.
The election and term of a Nova Roma Vestal
There shall be no more than six Vestals at any time. The Chief Vestal
(Virgo Maxima) is the oldest Vestal; when she retires, is removed from
office or if she dies, the next oldest takes her place.
Vestals are chosen from women who are at or above the legal age of
consent in their respective states, who volunteer for the Order, who
are Citizens of Nova Roma, and meet the requirements. Candidates are
chosen by the Virgo Maxima and the Pontifex Maximus and inducted in a
private ceremony conducted by the Pontifex Maximus.
A Vestal shall serve for a term of one year, during which time she must
take and keep a vow of chastity. At the end of that time, she may renew
her vows and continue with the Order, or she may leave, having served
Vesta and Nova Roma with honor.
A Vestal may leave the Order at any time before her year's term, but
will not be readmitted.
It is recommended that a Vestal wear the garments traditional to
Vestals at all Nova Roma events where appropriate.
A Vestal is entitled to be preceded by a lictor. Good luck trying to
get one, girls!
Removal of a Vestal
A Vestal may be removed for purposely breaking her vow or neglecting
her sacred duties. Her case will be reviewed by the Virgo Maxima and the
Pontifex Maximus; if they find reason to remove the Vestal, such reasons
shall be presented to the Senate. The Vestal has the right to have her
case heard in the Senate, which has the final judgement. This follows
Roman law.
Nova Roma will not bury disgraced Vestals alive. For one thing, we
don't want to go all the way to the Colline Gate to do it.
Secular duties of a Vestal
The Vestals shall have custody of all wills, treaties and important
documents. This follows Roman custom. For Nova Roma, the Vestals will be
happy to accept sealed copies of wills and documents, copies of Nova
Roma's treaties with other Micronations, and other State documents, to
be kept in a bank safe deposit box. Documents should be sealed with wax
(obligatory) and imprinted with the Citizen's personal seal (optional).
Please remember that any legal document should also be filed as usual
with your lawyer. Filing wills with the Vestals is symbolic only. The
Virgo Maxima and Pontifex Maximus will have keys to the box, which will
be opened in Nova Roma's name. At the end of either's term of office,
the VM or PM will turn over the keys to her/his successor.
The Hearth of Nova Roma
Since we have no central forum, the Temple of Vesta shall be a private
place in each Vestal's home, perhaps as part of her own lararium. She is
responsible for dedicating this flame to Vesta, on behalf of the Nova
Roman state, and keeping it burning. In this, we also make concession to
modern times and personal lives. Vestals may find it dangerous to keep a
flame burning unattended. Therefore, the Vestals may extinguish the
flame with proper respect, and re-light it, preferably every day, but at
least once a week, with proper ceremony and prayers for the citizens and
state.
Ceremonies, Mysteries, and Rites of the Vestals
These will be created by the Vestals after diligent study of the
ancient rites, and with the divine direction of Vesta.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
dean6886@--------) |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 01:18:44 -0500 (CDT) |
|
How excellent, but where on earth will we find the women necessary to
volunteer??? Was there really anyone so far that offered to voluteer
for at least a year?
Sorry, but in all seriousness and without being too explicit for
this list is the modern adaptation going to be a total ban on all forms
of sex or just prohibiting the Vestals from actions that could result
in pregnancy. Making some pretty liberal modern adaptations might mean
all the difference in the world as to who applies. The terminology
seemed flexible in context with the quote from Ovid and I was just
wondering if our pontifices had any thoughts on that for clarity.
I understand it's easiest and less embarrassing for
pontifices to just say no to discussing any thing other than complete
chastity for these women, but isn't it worth a discussion if it wasn't
done already to consider some liberal options if it could mean
eventually having 6 Vestals that wish to stay many years with valuable
experience. Ok, now I can get heckled off the mail list, but at least I
said it.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Insulting comments and Heathen Fronts |
| From: |
SDmtwi@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 02:33:32 EDT |
|
Salve,
It's late, and I can't resist.
> question anyone's interpretation or ideas. Especially from someone who
> breads Unicorns!!!!!
I rather wonder what breaded unicorn tastes like. Chicken, perhaps?
Vale,
T. Labienus Fortunatus
|
| Subject: |
We're THERE, dudes! |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 06 Sep 1998 02:37:47 -0400 |
|
Although I find the "Christians eaten by lions" in EXTREMELY poor taste,
so to speak, the rest of this theme park sounds like fun.
-F. Claudia
ROME (AP) - Lions will eat Christians and gladiators will die by the
sword once again in ancient Rome - at least through state-of-the-art
special effects at a new theme park.
The $258 million "Roma Vetus" project, announced this week, will have
palaces, forums and thermal baths built to three-quarter scale, as well
as an 180,000-seat amphitheater.
Visitors will be able to watch chariot races, gladiatorial contests and
even Christians being eaten by wild animals - thanks to Oscar-winning
special effects wizard Carlo Rambaldi, who created E.T. for director
Steven Spielberg.
All signs of modern life, including electricity, motor vehicles and
plastic will be banned, said the Milan-based company behind the project,
Filmholding. The park will be lit by gas, its only hotel will be heated
by water from a nearby thermal spring, and its food will be similar to
what ancient Romans ate.
Roma Vetus, due to be completed in two years, will cover around 1,460
acres and provide an estimated 5,000 new jobs. It will be located 60
miles northeast of Rome in the countryside near Orvieto.
AP-NY-10-23-97 1804EDT
|
| Subject: |
12 Caesars |
| From: |
pjane pjane@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 03:54:51 -0400 (EDT) |
|
F. Claudia wrote:
>I highly recommend Suetonius' "The Twelve Caesars." What great gossip --
>accurate or not! This guy was the Joan Rivers of Rome. Get the edition
>translated by Robert Graves, then read "I Claudius."
Been there, done that! I had both from Books on Tape, whence I also "read"
three of the McCullough books.
Patricia Cassia
---
"If a sufficient number of people who wanted to stop war
really did gather together, they would first of all begin
by making war upon those who disagreed with them. And it
is still more certain that they would make war on people
who also want to stop wars but in another way." - Gurdjieff
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
"Nathan Hicks" moman@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 05:52:20 -0400 |
|
From: dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)
> How excellent, but where on earth will we find the women necessary to
> volunteer??? Was there really anyone so far that offered to voluteer
> for at least a year?
The Vestal may abnegate from her duties at any time.
As the only consequence, she shall not be permitted
to hold that office again. When we see that option
rightly as a kind of panic button, then the proposal
seems to be much more reasonable and practicable.
> I understand it's easiest and less embarrassing for
> pontifices to just say no to discussing any thing other than complete
> chastity for these women, but isn't it worth a discussion if it wasn't
> done already to consider some liberal options if it could mean
> eventually having 6 Vestals that wish to stay many years with valuable
> experience.
Yet if the pontifices resolve upon more liberal ways,
I'll fear the verity in your words, Druse, when you
say that our Vestals have much experience.
Cnaeus Aelius Rusticus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Insulting comments and Heathen Fronts |
| From: |
TLRegina@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 06:12:28 EDT |
|
LOL - Doesn't everything taste like chicken?
T. L. Regina
Materfamilia Gens Libertania
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
pythia kingan@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 06 Sep 1998 10:29:06 -0700 |
|
I personally have no problem with this proposal. Although I cannot participate, I
imagine we have enough pius single childless women in Nova Roma who are serious
enough to make this commitment.
Pythia
--
_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:
Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html</a>
<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
pythia kingan@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 06 Sep 1998 10:34:16 -0700 |
|
Dean Troy wrote:
> From: dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)
>
> How excellent, but where on earth will we find the women necessary to
> volunteer??? Was there really anyone so far that offered to voluteer
> for at least a year?
> Sorry, but in all seriousness and without being too explicit for
> this list is the modern adaptation going to be a total ban on all forms
> of sex or just prohibiting the Vestals from actions that could result
> in pregnancy. Making some pretty liberal modern adaptations might mean
> all the difference in the world as to who applies. The terminology
> seemed flexible in context with the quote from Ovid and I was just
> wondering if our pontifices had any thoughts on that for clarity.
> I understand it's easiest and less embarrassing for
> pontifices to just say no to discussing any thing other than complete
> chastity for these women, but isn't it worth a discussion if it wasn't
> done already to consider some liberal options if it could mean
> eventually having 6 Vestals that wish to stay many years with valuable
> experience. Ok, now I can get heckled off the mail list, but at least I
> said it.
>
>
I think what this comes down to is how serious the person is, in their
commitment to the Gods. If you can't imagine anything more terrible than a
vow of chastity, (and please, does anyone really need a thorough
explanation? Most of us are adults here!),than you don't volunteer. To use a
hackneyed phrase, its a "calling".
Pythia
--
_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:
Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html</a>
<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: OT: Unicorn, anyone? |
| From: |
Molly Schneider stormborn@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 06 Sep 1998 07:53:08 -0700 |
|
> I rather wonder what breaded unicorn tastes like. Chicken, perhaps?
>
> Vale,
> T. Labienus Fortunatus
Young unicorn skewered and roasted slowly over a pit fire--more like a
mild form of goat. Excellent with mango chutney.
Honoria Lucia
FKPagan/Cousin/NA/Inn-mate
stormborn@--------
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~StormBorn/" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~StormBorn/</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Insulting comments and Heathen Fronts |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:11:34 EDT |
|
In a m--------g--------t--------/5/98 12:41:32 PM East--------Daylight Tim--------ingan@--------
writes:
<< This is the one part of the piece I actually find a little off, because it
seems
to validate racial theories of separate creation. Yeah, the Hebrew bible
belongs
to "the Hebrews", the way the Eddas belong to the Norse, I have a hard time
accepting that differant Gods created differant races. >>
I would agree, Pythia. However, if one takes the story as historical fact,
then your point is valid (different deities creating different races). But if
one views it as a simple myth then it doesn't go further than that.
I don't think that Divinity created different races based upon what archetype
Divinity chose for each race. But the OT does indicate that "Elohim" created
man and women and then later in the story, Yahwe creates Adam and Eve.
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: More about Heathen Fronts ETC. |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:15:05 EDT |
|
In a message dated 9/5/98 12:47:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Al--------us@-------- writ--------br>
<< I dont know if there are anyother Jews on NR, but as far as I
will go, I will not deny my heritage (which was the source of my problem at
my former employer), I will not deny my religion (which at this point I
really do not have one). And I will not allow myself to hear observe or
contribute to religious slurs about my relatives >>
And I, for one, would expect nothing less from you! : )
Everyone should be proud of their cultural history and origins. Diversity is
the spice of life. I would be pretty damn bored in life if everyone was the
same.
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: We're THERE, dudes! |
| From: |
pallasathene@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:24:55 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salvete, omnes!
SVVBE
Field trip!
(Although, I agree with Claudia with the Christians being eaten by lions being atrocious.)
Studiose,
Minervina Iucundia Flavia, Materfamilias
Praetor, SE USA
---- you wrote:
> From: m--------oon@--------
>
> Although I find the "Christians eaten by lions" in EXTREMELY poor taste,
> so to speak, the rest of this theme park sounds like fun.
> -F. Claudia
>
>
> ROME (AP) - Lions will eat Christians and gladiators will die by the
> sword once again in ancient Rome - at least through state-of-the-art
> special effects at a new theme park.
>
> The $258 million "Roma Vetus" project, announced this week, will have
> palaces, forums and thermal baths built to three-quarter scale, as well
> as an 180,000-seat amphitheater.
>
> Visitors will be able to watch chariot races, gladiatorial contests and
> even Christians being eaten by wild animals - thanks to Oscar-winning
> special effects wizard Carlo Rambaldi, who created E.T. for director
> Steven Spielberg.
>
> All signs of modern life, including electricity, motor vehicles and
> plastic will be banned, said the Milan-based company behind the project,
> Filmholding. The park will be lit by gas, its only hotel will be heated
> by water from a nearby thermal spring, and its food will be similar to
> what ancient Romans ate.
>
> Roma Vetus, due to be completed in two years, will cover around 1,460
> acres and provide an estimated 5,000 new jobs. It will be located 60
> miles northeast of Rome in the countryside near Orvieto.
>
> AP-NY-10-23-97 1804EDT
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------\r\nGet your free email from altavista.iname.com
|
| Subject: |
Re: Insulting comments and Heathen Fronts |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:28:56 EDT |
|
In --------ss--------d-------- 9/6/98 2:33:50 AM E--------rn D--------ght Time, SDmtwi@--------
writes:
<< I rather wonder what breaded unicorn tastes like. Chicken, perhaps? >>
LOL...lightly sauteed in a butter sauce!
If you haven't noticed, I can't spell when sleep-deprived! : )
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: We're THERE, dudes! |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:30:14 EDT |
|
I'm there! Count me in!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Insulting comments and Heathen Fronts |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 12:31:25 EDT |
|
In a message dated 9/6/98 12:22:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
iadams@-------- writ--------br>
<< I've never seen a Pagan tract. Where do you get them? It would be great
to be able to give those to Mormon missionaries and Jehova's Witnesses,
when they appear at my home and demand that I pray with them.
(BTW, who is Oberon Zell?) >>
I'm currently in Grand Rapids for the Labor Day weekend. When I get home, I
will take a look at the tract...I think they have an "order number" on the
back.
Oberon Zell is one of the founders (his wife, Morning Glory Zell is the other
founder) of the Church of All Worlds. It's a Pagan-Wiccan church that accepts
the unity of all religions.
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Grrr! I'm so angry! |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 12:41:59 EDT |
|
In a message dated 9/6/98 12:22:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
iadams@-------- writ--------br>
<< However at first glance,
some historical evidence would suggest that the polytheists can be and
have been just as viscious as the monotheists. >>
Yes...this is true and thank you for pointing it out. But I'm still curious
as to how many ideological "wars" were fought before monotheism's sweep of the
world. When you look at the crusades, Islam's jihads, the inquisitions,
etc....I'm curious if there were any Pagan equivalents in B.C. years.
<<And many people would say that you should count the Catholic Church among
the poytheists, since they pray not only to three different expressions
of the supreme God, but also to his mother(!) and to a whole pantheon of
demi-deified helpers (saints). To this extent, the sins of the Church are
those of polytheists and not of monotheists.>>
Well, I have heard it said that the Catholic Church is the biggest Pagan
Church in history. Though I can see the comparisons you make, I wouldn't go
so far as to officially call Catholics polytheistic (further than just a snite
remark). Perhaps that's from being raised a Catholic...who knows? But I do
remember my grandmother (Gods rest her soul) saying that's why God didn't like
Protestants because they always bothered him with their problems instead of
going to the "little gods" first. (My grandmother, I believe, was Paganis
Incommunicatis...she saw the saints as "little gods").
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
"Nathan Hicks" moman@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 14:24:33 -0400 |
|
-----Original Message-----
From: m--------oon@-------- m--------oon@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Sunday, September 06, 1998 12:40 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Proposal for Vestals (long)
>From: m--------oon@--------
>
>The question of virginity
>
> Oddly enough, the description of a virgin in Ovid, writing of Vesta, is
> "Nor do you esteem Vesta to be anything but a living flame, and you see
> no bodies produced from flame. Therefore she is truly a virgin, for she
> sends forth no seed nor receives it..."
> It is Plutarch's opinion that Numa thought that the nature of fire is
> barren and brings forth nothing, so its care is fitting and proper to
> virgins.
A quote from Ovid is always nice, but such metaphors aren't
enough for a thorough understanding of the ancients' views,
an aim which seems be the purpose behind these quotations.
The creator of a metaphor will usually disregard all of the
important details amid his haste to draw a vivid similarity
between two things. In the one by Plutarch, for an example,
although shown that fire is rather like virginity, we still
don't know any of the facts about either which can't be fit
neatly into a metaphor. Enumerating the many qualities that
are peculiar to one would remove that sudden "Yes! It is!"
moment toward which all metaphors strive.
That point doesn't really matter, since I mostly agree with
your proposal. However, I agree by necessity and not by the
given argument, which can't suffice for justification.
But now I turn more agreeable and offer a few suggestions to
the proposal:
> then the requirement of virginity in the Nova Roman Vestals is somewhat
> served by a woman who has 1) not produced children;
1.b) has not had an abortion, miscarriage, or prolonged but
unsuccessful attempt to conceive;
(I suggest this addition since, surely, such women would be
inauspicious attendants for the goddess of child-bearing!)
> The election and term of a Nova Roma Vestal
>
> There shall be no more than six Vestals at any time. The Chief Vestal
> (Virgo Maxima) is the oldest Vestal; when she retires, is removed from
> office or if she dies, the next oldest takes her place.
I suggest that the Virgo Maxima be instead determined by
the longest celibacy, being mindful that this distinction
wasn't necessary under the ancient conditions, but that a
new need arises for seeing the attainment of the worthiest
to the highest rank. Regarding this need further, I think
a preference perhaps ought to be placed upon those true
virgins having served beyond a year.
> Vestals are chosen from women who are at or above the legal age of
>consent in their respective states,
Their states? This needlessly calls in outside laws. Let's
just make it the age at which one is allowed the status of
full citizenship (18, or 16 with parental consent).
> who volunteer for the Order, who
> are Citizens of Nova Roma, and meet the requirements. Candidates are
> chosen by the Virgo Maxima and the Pontifex Maximus and inducted in a
> private ceremony conducted by the Pontifex Maximus.
> A Vestal shall serve for a term of one year
A short abstinence from sexual activity may be appropriate
in advance of the term's beginning. My encyclopedia states
a lifespan of two weeks with respect to the male ejaculate.
Three weeks, therefore, is a pious minimum interval.
(I anticipate that this is mostly unnecessary, but it does
patch up a potential argument against the legitimacy of our
compromises.)
> Nova Roma will not bury disgraced Vestals alive. For one thing, we
>don't want to go all the way to the Colline Gate to do it.
Possibly, we can agree to half-bury them for only a year?
> Therefore, the Vestals may extinguish the
> flame with proper respect, and re-light it, preferably every day, but at
> least once a week, with proper ceremony and prayers for the citizens and
> state.
I can understand the extinction of the flame, but requiring it
to be re-lit only once a week is perhaps too loosely observing
a duty which was quondam regarded as a vital and constant task.
If the requirement is to tend the Vestal fire at least once in
every two days, then we can reasonably expect the six vestals
to be maintaining a flame at one of their several shrines on
each day of the week.
Cnaeus Aelius Rusticus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 06 Sep 1998 15:36:01 -0400 |
|
Dean Troy wrote:
>
>eventually having 6 Vestals that wish to stay many years with valuable
> experience. Ok, now I can get heckled off the mail list, but at least I
> said it.
You shouldn't be heckled off. If I hadn't wanted opinions, I wouldn't
have posted it. And yes, we do have one volunteer. Women will either
agree or they won't. If they don't -- don't join. Simple enough.
-F. Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Insulting comments and Heathen Fronts |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 06 Sep 1998 15:40:02 -0400 |
|
Ira Adams wrote:
>
> From: Ira Adams iadams@--------
>
> Dexipuus inscribed:
>
> > "We Are the Other People"
> > by Oberon Zell >>
> >
> >I actually have this as a Pagan tract (you know, those funny little comic
> >strips that you can hand evangelists once they hand you one of their own). I
> >didn't know Oberon Zell had his hand in writing it? Or maybe he didn't? Oh
> >well...interesting reading and perspective, isn't it?
>
> I've never seen a Pagan tract. Where do you get them? It would be great
> to be able to give those to Mormon missionaries and Jehova's Witnesses,
> when they appear at my home and demand that I pray with them.
>
> (BTW, who is Oberon Zell?)
>
> L. Sergius Aust.
>
I have pagan tracts! We've benn handing them out for years here in Salem
at tourist time. Anyone wants one, e-mail me and I'll send it as a file
attachment. I hope.
-F. Claudia
P.S. I think the Julian Society has one, and our own Nova Roma page has
literature to print out.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 06 Sep 1998 15:49:37 -0400 |
|
Nathan Hicks wrote:
>
>
> > then the requirement of virginity in the Nova Roman Vestals is somewhat
> > served by a woman who has 1) not produced children;
>
> 1.b) has not had an abortion, miscarriage, or prolonged but
> unsuccessful attempt to conceive;
We are not even about to ask this question of a vestal. It smacks too
much of right-to-life issues, and we are not concerned with that here.
>
> (I suggest this addition since, surely, such women would be
> inauspicious attendants for the goddess of child-bearing!)
>
>
> I suggest that the Virgo Maxima be instead determined by
> the longest celibacy, being mindful that this distinction
> wasn't necessary under the ancient conditions, but that a
> new need arises for seeing the attainment of the worthiest
> to the highest rank. Regarding this need further, I think
> a preference perhaps ought to be placed upon those true
> virgins having served beyond a year.
>
Sorry, but the available historical records indicate that the Virgo
Maxima was the oldest Vestal. Age determined the office. It was assumed
that if she was the oldest, she had been a virgin longest. Logical
assumption.
Since we are not concerned with true virgins -- and in reality we aren't
asking, we're taking the woman's word for it. If she wants to swear
falsely before Vesta, it's going to be her problem. Nobody's suggesting
that we have her certified by a doctor, I hope?
>
> Their states? This needlessly calls in outside laws. Let's
> just make it the age at which one is allowed the status of
> full citizenship (18, or 16 with parental consent).
Sorry, but parental consent can be faked and often is, as those who
teach in the Wiccan religion know. Age of legal consent is more
appropriate.
>
>
> A short abstinence from sexual activity may be appropriate
> in advance of the term's beginning. My encyclopedia states
> a lifespan of two weeks with respect to the male ejaculate.
> Three weeks, therefore, is a pious minimum interval.
Good point. But again, we aren't asking her to swear to us -- just to
Vesta. And the initiation requirements and ceremonies will be written by
the Vestals and the PMax.
> Possibly, we can agree to half-bury them for only a year?
>
Maybe they'll just agree to sit in the dark for five minutes and not
breathe.
>
> I can understand the extinction of the flame, but requiring it
> to be re-lit only once a week is perhaps too loosely observing
> a duty which was quondam regarded as a vital and constant task.
> If the requirement is to tend the Vestal fire at least once in
> every two days, then we can reasonably expect the six vestals
> to be maintaining a flame at one of their several shrines on
> each day of the week.
>
Again, the duties of the offices will be determined by the Vestals.
-F. Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
legion6@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:18:34 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salvete omnes:
I like the proposal for the Vestals just the way it is. The worship of
Vesta and the keeping of the Hearth are an aspect of the Religio Romana
that has always appealed to me. I think it would be a mistake to make
*too* many concessions to modern ways here; I like to think of Romans
in general, including Roman women, as being/having been made of sterner
moral stuff.
---
__________ _<~) __________
<-\\\\@@@@@) /##\ (@@@@@////-> Märia Villarroel legion6@--------
<-\\\@@@@(#####@@@@///-> Historical Re-Creationist
<-\\\*##*///-> and Citizen of Rome
o---<<<<||SPQR||>>>>---o Latin lessons, History lectures
///\\\ Role-playing Games, too!
aka Lucius Marius Fimbria on the weekends
|
| Subject: |
Toscano |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 06 Sep 1998 19:37:42 -0400 |
|
Design Toscano's new catalog has some nice things of interest to Nova
Romans. They specialize in reproductions of statues, but they have a
really nifty $98 Gladius complete with ornamented scabbard, a good
reproduction of one that they say was excavated in Pompeii (but I think
it was actually found in Herculaneum). They also have a beautiful Hebe,
Romulus & Remus being suckled by the she-wolf (from the Museo
Capitolino), Pauline Bonaparte as Venus (from the Palazzo Borghese), and
a very charming Venus from the Museo Nazionale. And ladies, you've got
to see the Hercules from the Villa Farnese - woo hoo! There's also a
4-foot fountain with three lion's heads, if you've got a spare $1,350,
and a wonderful fountain depicting Bona Dea for $345. Some nice solid
marble columns, too, but they're not cheap. But you can get a Venus de
Milo squeaky toy for $8…
<a href="http://www.aaweb.com/toscano" target="_top" >http://www.aaweb.com/toscano</a>
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Toscano |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:23:13 -0400 |
|
>
>Design Toscano's new catalog has some nice things of interest to Nova
>Romans. They specialize in reproductions of statues, but they have a
>really nifty $98 Gladius complete with ornamented scabbard, a good
>reproduction of one that they say was excavated in Pompeii (but I think
>it was actually found in Herculaneum).
Salvete omnes
I just recieved this same cataloge and while I agree with everything
else, I must Disagree about the Gladius, DON'T buy it! It is junk! Looks
good, but sorry, no cigar.
>They also have a beautiful Hebe,
>Romulus & Remus being suckled by the she-wolf (from the Museo
>Capitolino), Pauline Bonaparte as Venus (from the Palazzo Borghese),
>a very charming Venus from the Museo Nazionale. And ladies, you've got
>to see the Hercules from the Villa Farnese - woo hoo! There's also a
>4-foot fountain with three lion's heads, if you've got a spare $1,350,
>and a wonderful fountain depicting Bona Dea for $345. Some nice solid
>marble columns, too, but they're not cheap. But you can get a Venus de
>Milo squeaky toy for $8…
><a href="http://www.aaweb.com/toscano" target="_top" >http://www.aaweb.com/toscano</a>
>-- Flavia Claudia
Yes, I am thinking of getting something from them myself. They do have some
nice things.
Valete L Equitius Cincinnatus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:37:34 -0400 |
|
>From: m--------oon@--------
>
>Dean Troy wrote:
>>
>>eventually having 6 Vestals that wish to stay many years with valuable
>> experience. Ok, now I can get heckled off the mail list, but at least I
>> said it.
>
>
>You shouldn't be heckled off. If I hadn't wanted opinions, I wouldn't
>have posted it. And yes, we do have one volunteer. Women will either
>agree or they won't. If they don't -- don't join. Simple enough.
>-F. Claudia
>
Evax!
Macte!
Huic Gaudemus!
Valete Lucius Equitius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Insulting comments and Heathen Fronts |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:42:11 -0400 |
|
>From: m--------oon@--------
>
>Ira Adams wrote:
>>
>> From: Ira Adams iadams@--------
>>
>> Dexipuus inscribed:
>>
>> > "We Are the Other People"
>> > by Oberon Zell >>
>> >
>> >I actually have this as a Pagan tract (you know, those funny little
comic
>> >strips that you can hand evangelists once they hand you one of their
own>> I've never seen a Pagan tract. Where do you get them? It would be
great
>> to be able to give those to Mormon missionaries and Jehova's Witnesses,
>> when they appear at my home and demand that I pray with them.
>>
>I have pagan tracts! We've benn handing them out for years here in Salem
>at tourist time. Anyone wants one, e-mail me and I'll send it as a file
>attachment. I hope.
>-F. Claudia
>
>P.S. I think the Julian Society has one, and our own Nova Roma page has
>literature to print out.
>
Ave et Savete
OK Great! Send one to me, Please!
Vale Atque Valete L Equitius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:07:50 -0400 |
|
>Salvete omnes:
>
>I like the proposal for the Vestals just the way it is. The worship of
>Vesta and the keeping of the Hearth are an aspect of the Religio Romana
>that has always appealed to me. I think it would be a mistake to make
>*too* many concessions to modern ways here; I like to think of Romans
>in general, including Roman women, as being/having been made of sterner
>moral stuff.
>
>aka Lucius Marius Fimbria on the weekends
Salvete Quirites
I agree Lucius Marius. I like the proposal as is, pending aproval of
the Pontificis, get things started!
Valete Lucius Equitius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposal for Vestals (long) |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:37:12 -0400 |
|
>Nathan Hicks wrote:
>> > then the requirement of virginity in the Nova Roman Vestals is
>> > served by a woman who has 1) not produced children;
>> 1.b) has not had an abortion, miscarriage, or prolonged but
>> unsuccessful attempt to conceive;
>
>We are not even about to ask this question of a vestal. It smacks too
>much of right-to-life issues, and we are not concerned with that here.
>>
Salvete Cives
I recieved the Proposal for Vestals Virgins and was inpressed by it.
Sure there will always be things that any one of us might want to do
differently. But it is good to see something being done to get the Vestals
Virgins back. We are all interested in having things done correctly, but let
us remember that this was a system that was around for about a millinia.
So,I think we can take a little time to get things right without delaying
getting things started. Let us hope that prospective Vestals understand the
spirit of this office. That they are indeed "Married to the Gods" and as
such are "sacer", which is why they were not actively executed but sealed
alive in a cave for any transgression.
>> (I suggest this addition since, surely, such women would be
>> inauspicious attendants for the goddess of child-bearing!)
>> a preference perhaps ought to be placed upon those true
>> virgins having served beyond a year.
>>
>Sorry, but the available historical records indicate that the Virgo
>Maxima was the oldest Vestal. Age determined the office. It was assumed
>that if she was the oldest, she had been a virgin longest. Logical
>assumption.
>
Sound good to me!
>Since we are not concerned with true virgins -- and in reality we aren't
>asking, we're taking the woman's word for it. If she wants to swear
>falsely before Vesta, it's going to be her problem. Nobody's suggesting
>that we have her certified by a doctor, I hope?
I think that we should trust someone's oath. We are all here because we want
to be.
>> Their states? (18, or 16 with parental consent).
>
>Sorry, Age of legal consent is more appropriate.
>>
I must agree, let us not give any reason to be prosecuted.
>> A short abstinence from sexual activity , is a pious minimum interval.
>
>Good point. But again, we aren't asking her to swear to us -- just to
>Vesta. And the initiation requirements and ceremonies will be written by
>the Vestals and the PMax.
>
Good!
>> Possibly, we can agree to half-bury them for only a year?
>>
>Maybe they'll just agree to sit in the dark for five minutes and not
>breathe.
>
I think we may consider exile as a suitable penalty for most transgressions
aginst established codes.
>>
>> I can understand the extinction of the flame,
>> to be maintaining a flame at one of their several shrines on
>> each day of the week.
>>
>Again, the duties of the offices will be determined by the Vestals.
>-F. Claudia
The Vestals and the Ponifex Maximus as stated above. I think that The
Vestals will also have Nova Roma's best interests in mind.
Valete L Equitius
|
| Subject: |
RE. a Lot of Things |
| From: |
Ricci razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 06 Sep 1998 20:32:56 -0700 |
|
I got back fro two days of off planet fun and find alomost a century of
Roman posts in my mail box.
to Lucius Marius Fimbria: The Fun-Dumbs. 1) I'd love to know the
evolution of that phrase word. 2) I've been a believer in the
Mediterranean gods since I was a kid long, long ago in a state far, far
away, but on the trail from there to Nova Roma I became a Witch. I
stopped associating with others in the Craft after some fun-dumb
factions became prevelent there. The fun-dumbs don't change my belief
system, only Great Ones influence that, but fun-dumbs affect who I work
with.
to Ullerius: on "Nazarite" or "Nazarene". I use Nazarene because i've
heard it more often and because an Arabic word for the religion is (this
is a common transliteration into Roman letters) _Nazarinyya_, which
obviously is connected to "Nazarene" in some way. There are a number of
reasons I do not like to use "Christian" on these pages. 1) it is a damn
long word to type. 2) I want to be esoteric so I will not offend
Christian friends (including my wife and her almost as lovely family).
3) Like our Christian frineds, and fellow citizens, I choose to fight
the dumb-fun Fundies arrogating the word "Christian" to their sole use.
Make them fight for every damn inch!
I'm going to try the chatroom now. I'll probably have more to say
later. i still have 49 unread messages to go!
Vale Ericius
|
