Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: Public apology...
From:	pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:02:17 -0400

>
>
> In case anyone was not sure this message is good-natured ribbing and
> not sarcasm.

Gods! Now we even have disclaimers! Save us from too much political
correctness! lol!

Pythia

>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:

Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html</a>
<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>


Subject:	Re: To Pythia re: my post
From:	pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:24:35 -0400

I was just making light of it! I just wish we didn't have such a touchy list
here...with people feeling they have to explain jokes...and having to
apologize all the time... thats all I meant!

It wasn't meant personally.

Best, Pythia

Masterofhistory wrote:

> From: Masterofhistor--------sterofhistor--------..
>
> If you knew me, you would have not have written that.
>
> Avidius Tullius Callidus
> Paterfamilias, gens Tullia
> Candidate for Tribune of the People
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
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_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:

Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html</a>
<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Ok..Round 2 unsuccessful
From:	Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:02:38 -0400

>

Does anyone know how they are able to coordinate this attack?It is insane in
there.
They are fast and there is no way to chat!

Pythia

--
_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:

Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html</a>
<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>


Subject:	Re: On Michael Grant
From:	Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:04:27 -0400

Oplonti--------... wrote:

> From: Oplonti--------...
>
> Salvete,
> Thanks to the people who shared their opinions on the historian Michael Grant.
> I appreciate your thoughts. A note to Pythia - it was Michael Wood who did
> the PBS special on Alexander the Great, not Michael Grant.
> Valete,
> Quintus Poppaeus Sabinus

Thank-you, I stand corrected! And my apologies to Michael Wood! Anyone associated
with Queens University in Belfast can't be all bad!! lol

Pythia...(humbled)....

>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
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--
_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:

Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html</a>
<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>


Subject:	Re: On Michael Grant
From:	Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:04:52 -0400

Oplonti--------... wrote:

> From: Oplonti--------...
>
> Salvete,
> Thanks to the people who shared their opinions on the historian Michael Grant.
> I appreciate your thoughts. A note to Pythia - it was Michael Wood who did
> the PBS special on Alexander the Great, not Michael Grant.
> Valete,
> Quintus Poppaeus Sabinus

Thank-you, I stand corrected! And my apologies to Michael Grant! Anyone associated
with Queens University in Belfast can't be all bad!! lol

Pythia...(humbled)....

>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.

--
_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:

Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html</a>
<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>


Subject:	Re: On Michael Grant
From:	Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:15:52 -0400

Sorry about this letter! I was so wiped out from the WAR OF THE CHATROOM, I got mixed
up!

Pythia

pythia wrote:

> From: pythia kingan@--------
>
> Oplonti--------... wrote:
>
> > From: Oplonti--------...
> >
> > Salvete,
> > Thanks to the people who shared their opinions on the historian Michael Grant.
> > I appreciate your thoughts. A note to Pythia - it was Michael Wood who did
> > the PBS special on Alexander the Great, not Michael Grant.
> > Valete,
> > Quintus Poppaeus Sabinus
>
> Thank-you, I stand corrected! And my apologies to Michael Wood! Anyone associated
> with Queens University in Belfast can't be all bad!! lol
>
> Pythia...(humbled)....
>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> > service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
> > <a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>
> --
> _______________________________________________________________________
> the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:
>
> Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
> <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html</a>
> <a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.

--
_______________________________________________________________________
the Studio at the Sign Of The Harp:

Beautuful and Unique Jewelry inspired by the Ancient World.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp/jewelry.html</a>
<a href="http://www.signoftheharp.com" target="_top" >http://www.signoftheharp.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Forwarded Newsletter - ADLOCVTIO :)
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:41:49 -0400 (EDT)

Most Honored Roman!

I most respectfully ask if you have contacted the Commander of the IXth
Legio Hispana for a similar honor of having the IXth Legios newsletter
as well. Since I am attached to both the IXthe and XXth Legions as a
Miles Immunes in enginneering matters, I believe it would be
advantagious to Nova Roma to receive such as well as the XXth Legio
Valera Victrix newsletter.

Very Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Determining the need for Quaesters
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:48:18 -0400 (EDT)

I was kind of wondering about that myself. Being new to the
organization, I would like to help if I can. I am reluctant to stand
for office, until I have observed the Nova Roma for a year, because
frankly I am not sure how it operates, and what the actual organization
of the institution is. I understand the apparent structure but not the
unapparent one. I think that I can be of some assistance, but I am not
sure what needs to be done. I am really not all that interested in
being a priest, I have some small skill as a military tribune
(engineering) and some experience with naval / marine matters.

I think that most probably I would be of use as a Quaestor assigned to
an elected officer for the purpose of the naval / marine matters if
there was a need for that. However, if no Quaestors are selected for
specific needs, I am not sure how I can help. The present Consul
indicated that there was some interest in Roman maps, models, and
drawings of
engineering works, both military and civil. If such an interest exists,
and Quaestors are appointed, the Senate should be appraised of it, needs
established and Quaestor
positions announced by the Senate. If Quaestors are elected, then
should I stand for election as a Quaestor for the above specialties, or
wait until the Senate has established the need? I am willing to offer
my efforts and
time, such as they are, but I believe they should be applied where they
are needed or desired..

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Rome's Religion and attachment to te land of Rome
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:49:04 -0400 (EDT)

Ave Honored Roman!

Is this not a situation that is answered in the modern day by the
declaration that a foriegn countries legation boundaries are in fact a
transplanted part of that nation so long as both nations involved agree
formally? That is certainly the situation of a ship bearing the flag of
any nation. It automatcally becomes a part of the nation whose flag it
flies. That same idea does not currently apply to an airplane of a
given country, although with some of the horrible "accidents" in this
century, it may well ultimately go that way. Anyway, does not the idea
of a political deligation residing on "Roman Soil" take in consideration
the necessity of religion also being on native soil by declaration of
the Nova Roman Religious Authority?

Salve Honored Roman!

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 01:31:04 EDT

Salvete, Omnes,

Wow, this Chat Room thing has really been a pain in the podex!! As everyone
knows, the Barbarians managed to get five people together, (or at least five
screen names) and broke into the Chat... and booted out all the Citizens!

First off - I was afraid of this possibility, and am VERY glad that we waited
before raising the boot to a full hour, or three hours as some folks were
suggesting.

Secondly, I've just spent $19.95 and upgraded the chat room to the highest
level of security and features they offer. We'll be able to actually moderate
the board, (which we could NOT do before, despite all the calls for a
moderator!) and ban individual Email addresses. Here is the full list of extra
options as listed by Beseen:

*****************

*Features:
BanningThis is an online, easy to use feature that allows you, the chat room
host, to both ban and un-ban visitors to your chat room.� You'll have access
to your banning list and be able to edit, add or delete banned chatters.� Our
most popular feature!

Word Filter -A very cool feature that allows you to filter out any unwanted
words.� You pick the words and the replacement words!� For example, any time
someone types in a curse word it will be replaced by "golly" (or whatever
word) you want.� Very cool indeed!

Actions List - Create your very own list of actions and emotions.� An
action/emotion is a way for a chatter to signify to others that he or she has
done something.� A simple action would be: "sigh". When a chatter used this,
"** sigh **" would appear in the chat room.

No Top Ad Banner - Vinyl rooms do not contain the top ad frame from Beseen.com
(other ad placements remain within the chat room).� This gives your chat room
a lot more space and frees the chat experience from the intrusive rotating
banners on the top of the page.

Gender Symbols - Let the visitors to your chat room display their gender by
placing a MALE or FEMALE symbol next to their handle.

Graphic Titles - Add more zing to your chat room with an image of your choice
at the top of the message window (in addition to your title).

*************************

Hopefully this will do the trick! Again, my most humble apologies to everyone
who was inconvenienced by the problems we've had. I've paid for the change out
of my own pocket in compensation!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul


Subject:	Re: ChatWars
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 01:43:42 -0500 (CDT)

Pythia said...
>Sorry about this letter! I was so wiped out from the WAR OF THE
>CHATROOM, I got mixed up!

...to which Marius replies:

YOU were wiped?!? What about ME??

*** MariusFimbria finds himself a quiet corner of the barracks and
collapses ***
---
__________ _<~) __________
<-\\\\@@@@@) /##\ (@@@@@////-> M�ria Villarroel legion6@--------
<-\\\@@@@(#####@@@@///-> Historical Re-Creationist
<-\\\*##*///-> and Citizen of Rome
o---<<<<||SPQR||>>>>---o Latin lessons, History lectures
///\\\ Role-playing Games, too!

aka Lucius Marius Fimbria on the weekends


Subject:	Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	Claudia Aprica quinta_claudia_lucentia_aprica@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 04:03:36 -0700 (PDT)

> I've paid for the change out
> of my own pocket in compensation!
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Consul

I always knew we were lucky to have Cassius as a consul! Thanks,
Cassi, for your kindness, concern and generosity towards our community
- I'm sure all of us really apprciate this kind of action.
Tibi magnas gratias agimus!
Valete,
Q. Claudia Lucentia Aprica.
==
**********************************************************************
Drop in on my gens - <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133</a>
**********************************************************************


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:20:20 -0400

C--------us622@-------- wrote:
>
> From: C--------us622@--------
>
> Salvete, Omnes,
>
> Wow, this Chat Room thing has really been a pain in the podex!! As everyone
> knows, the Barbarians managed to get five people together, (or at least five
> screen names) and broke into the Chat... and booted out all the Citizens!
>
I wonder how they knew that it took five people?
Just wonderin'.

Paranoid as Fox Mulder,
-- flavia Claudia


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:23:33 -0400

Claudia Aprica wrote:
>
> From: Claudia Aprica quinta_claudia_lucentia_aprica@--------
>
> > I've paid for the change out
> > of my own pocket in compensation!
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > Consul
>
> I always knew we were lucky to have Cassius as a consul! Thanks,
> Cassi, for your kindness, concern and generosity towards our community
> - I'm sure all of us really apprciate this kind of action.
> Tibi magnas gratias agimus!
> Valete,
> Q. Claudia Lucentia Aprica.
>
You cives don't know the half of it.
Among other things, he kicked in an enormous amount of postage for the
Eagle. (That $5 only goes so far.) And we won't even MENTION the pending
coinage issue.
Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!

-- F. Claudia


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:51:18 EDT

In a message dated 10/22/98 7:22:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
m--------oon@-------- wr--------:

<< I wonder how they knew that it took five people?
Just wonderin'.

Paranoid as Fox Mulder,
-- flavia Claudia
>>

They knew because those rules were posted right on the site!! If you scrolled
down past where you type in comments at the bottom, all the chatroom
instructions and information were posted. Kinda like a giftwrapped invitation
from Beseen.com if you ask ME... "Attention all strangers! You need THIS many
friends to take this room away from it's owners, so that they'll have to come
and spend money with us!" ;)

See, I can get paranoid with the best of 'em... ;)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	Ricci razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:32:41 -0700

> From: C--------us622@--------
>
> Salvete, Omnes,
>
> Wow, this Chat Room thing has really been a pain in the podex!! As everyone
> knows, the Barbarians managed to get five people together, (or at least five
> screen names) and broke into the Chat... and booted out all the Citizens!
>
> First off - I was afraid of this possibility, and am VERY glad that we waited
> before raising the boot to a full hour, or three hours as some folks were
> suggesting.
>
> Secondly, I've just spent $19.95 and upgraded the chat room to the highest
> level of security and features they offer.

Would I send my contribution to the Chat War Chest to the NR address?Whom would I
make the check out to?
Yes. This is important to me.
Pila aren't free.

Valete
C. Aelius Ericius
Praetor, Pontiff, Paterfamilias


Subject:	A bit of humour in a mad world!!
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 06:21:40 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete quirites!!!

Well, all seems to be war at the moment so I thought I'd send you a
copy of a poem a friend wrote for me to cheer you all up!!

Nocturnia travels a moonlight beam
Along the Apian Way.
Her toga flows in gentle breeze
golden hair illumined
by soft pale rays.

Nocturnia whispers in lovers ears,
Giving them words to say,
She strums her lute to the
Beat of their hearts
and then she is on her way.

She finds her way through
The cobbled streets,
To the halls where the gods do play.
There, in flickering light,
to the gods delight
She dances the night away.

So there you are :)

A. I. C. Nocturnia


Subject:	Lusitania page....
From:	"Antonio M. R. C. Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:42:09 +0100

Salvete!

I think that the Lusitania page is already reachable at:
<a href="http://aurelius.inesc.pt/Lusitania" target="_top" >http://aurelius.inesc.pt/Lusitania</a>

Part of the contents is still in Portuguese, but I will translate it very
soon. Also, I will write some text to accompany the maps of Lusitania.

Valete!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)


Subject:	Re: Lusitania page....
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:28:47 EDT

Salve,

I couldn't get to your site... either your server is down or the site itself
just isn't up yet. I can't wait to see the thing though... I've been very
interested in learining more about your Provincia!

When you're sure it's running, please do feel free to post the address to the
internet list. We'll also get this forwarded to Patricia Cassia, so that she
can link to it from the Nova Roma site! :)

Vale,

Cassius

In a message dated 10/22/98 9:38:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
amg@-------- writes:

<< Salvete!

I think that the Lusitania page is already reachable at:
<a href="http://aurelius.inesc.pt/Lusitania" target="_top" >http://aurelius.inesc.pt/Lusitania</a>

Part of the contents is still in Portuguese, but I will translate it very
soon. Also, I will write some text to accompany the maps of Lusitania.

Valete!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)
>>


Subject:	Re: Lusitania page....
From:	"Antonio M. R. C. Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:39:41 +0100

Forgot to turn on my server... =))))))))))) Sorry!

Now it is accessible!

Vale!

-----Original Message-----
From: C--------us622@-------- C--------us622@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 3:31 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Lusitania page....

>From: C--------us622@--------
>
>Salve,
>
>I couldn't get to your site... either your server is down or the site
itself
>just isn't up yet. I can't wait to see the thing though... I've been very
>interested in learining more about your Provincia!
>
>When you're sure it's running, please do feel free to post the address to
the
>internet list. We'll also get this forwarded to Patricia Cassia, so that
she
>can link to it from the Nova Roma site! :)
>
>Vale,
>
>Cassius
>
>
>In a message dated 10/22/98 9:38:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>amg@-------- writes:
>
><< Salvete!
>
> I think that the Lusitania page is already reachable at:
> <a href="http://aurelius.inesc.pt/Lusitania" target="_top" >http://aurelius.inesc.pt/Lusitania</a>
>
> Part of the contents is still in Portuguese, but I will translate it very
> soon. Also, I will write some text to accompany the maps of Lusitania.
>
> Valete!
>
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> (Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)
> >>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
>service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
><a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:38:42 -0400

>>
>> Salvete, Omnes,
>>
>> Wow, this Chat Room thing has really been a pain in the podex!! As
everyone
>> knows, the Barbarians managed to get five people together, (or at least
five
>> screen names) and broke into the Chat... and booted out all the Citizens!
>>
>> First off - I was afraid of this possibility, and am VERY glad that we
waited
>> before raising the boot to a full hour, or three hours as some folks were
>> suggesting.
>>
>> Secondly, I've just spent $19.95 and upgraded the chat room to the
highest
>> level of security and features they offer.
>
>Would I send my contribution to the Chat War Chest to the NR address?Whom
would I
>make the check out to?
>Yes. This is important to me.
>Pila aren't free.
>
>Valete
>C. Aelius Ericius
>Praetor, Pontiff, Paterfamilias

Salvete
These expenses evenly distributed will not be onerous for any of us.
Yes this is important to me as well. Quaestor should have the information
posted soon.
Valete L Equitius Cincinnatus

BTW if you are able to get ICQ I recommend it check out at Mirabilis.com


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	pjane pjane@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:56:12 -0400 (EDT)

Australicus wrote:

>I shall tax myself $5 so that the Treasury might reimburse you for your
>out-of-pocket expenses (I'm sure you don't want to emulate Marcus Crassus
>and finance wars on your own!). To what address should citizens send tax
>payments?

To Nova Roma, P.O. Box 1897, Wells, ME 04090 USA. Make the check out to
Nova Roma. The treasury will then reimburse Cassius.

Thank you for setting a most noble example, Australicus!

Patricia Cassia


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:44:17 -0400

>Claudia Aprica wrote:
>>
>> From: Claudia Aprica quinta_claudia_lucentia_aprica@--------
>>
>> > I've paid for the change out
>> > of my own pocket in compensation!
>> >
>> > Valete,
>> >
>> > Marcus Cassius Julianus
>> > Consul
>>
>> I always knew we were lucky to have Cassius as a consul! Thanks,
>> Cassi, for your kindness, concern and generosity towards our community
>> - I'm sure all of us really apprciate this kind of action.
>> Tibi magnas gratias agimus!
>> Valete,
>> Q. Claudia Lucentia Aprica.
>>
> You cives don't know the half of it.
>Among other things, he kicked in an enormous amount of postage for the
>Eagle. (That $5 only goes so far.) And we won't even MENTION the pending
>coinage issue.
>Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!
>
>-- F. Claudia

Ave et Salvete
Yes Indeed. Now let us do the same!
Valete L Equitius Cincinnatus


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:20:56 EDT

> You cives don't know the half of it.
>Among other things, he kicked in an enormous amount of postage for the
>Eagle. (That $5 only goes so far.) And we won't even MENTION the pending
>coinage issue.
>Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!
>
>-- F. Claudia

Sounds like it's time to discuss that MOST ROMAN of traditions --
taxation!

What have the candidates for public office to say about that and the
liquidity of the Res Publica?

L. Sergius Aust.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.


Subject:	The Lusitania server is now accessible....
From:	"Antonio M. R. C. Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:16:54 +0100

Had to turn it off again, but now it is accessible.

Vale!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)


Subject:	A "taxing" question...
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:15:30 EDT

In a message dated 10/22/98 11:22:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LSergAust@-------- writes:

<<
Sounds like it's time to discuss that MOST ROMAN of traditions --
taxation!

What have the candidates for public office to say about that and the
liquidity of the Res Publica?

L. Sergius Aust.
>>

While I'm all in favor of money, *I'll* happily comment on the issue... ;)

Hopefully Nova Roma will be able to get by without setting up a system of
taxation. All things considered, our monetary needs are pretty low, and I'd
hate to limit Citizenship to only those who can send us money.

This issue was debated a great deal at the creation of Nova Roma. Several
ideas have been considered...

Basically, we're hoping that we can fund Nova Roma through commerce. We've got
the deal with Amazon.com books, and another with JBL statues so that NR gets a
portion of every sale to Citizens. There are a few other companies selling
Classical goods which we also hope to approach. We've also had, (and will have
again!) T-shirts and other "collectible" items on which Nova roma will profit.
We've also set up the Ordo Equester... which will also be donating a portion
of each sale to Citizens into the treasury.

In additon to all that there is a BIG plan for coinage... minted Nova Roma
coins which will be both commemorative and useful for trade tokens at events,
etc. It's a several hundred dollar startup process, and I haven't been able to
fund it yet, but it WILL happen. Probably next Spring by the way things are
going. Nova Roma should be able to make excellent profit on that alone when
it's up and running.

Right at the moment "The Eagle" is not a money maker, since we're charging
less than the cost of production. However, there has been a sort of "offhand"
profit... subscribers checks have been going into the treasury, but the
newsletter itself hasn't been funded FROM the treasury. Flavia Claudia has
been graciously subsidizing the cost of the specialty color paper, envelopes,
and color printer ink out of her own pocket... and I've donated several rolls
of stamps to keep the project going.

In short, we've got a treasury with something like $140 in it right now, but
to date nobody has really needed it to pay anything out. Of course that *will*
happen, and sooner than later... but hopefully this grace period will help us
in getting more money generated. We've already got two new applications for
the Ordo Equester, etc, and I've been hearing that people have been getting
the word on Pythia's fine jewelry... I coulda sworn I heard there were a
couple of orders pending for her in the chatroom a couple of nights ago!

Oh, one more thing. We're working on non-profit incorporation now, and that
will allow citizens to make tax-deductable donations. Between that and varous
commerce interests, Nova Roma will hopefully do well!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:30:08 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 m--------oon@-------- wrote:

> From: m--------oon@--------
>
> C--------us622@-------- wrote:
> >
> > From: C--------us622@--------

> I wonder how they knew that it took five people?
> Just wonderin'.
>
> Paranoid as Fox Mulder,
> -- flavia Claudia

Because at least one of them is subscribed to this mailing list and is
reading this right now. They've revealed enough in their infantile
babblings in the forum to show that they have information they could only
have read here.

Palladius

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.


Subject:	Chat room infiltration
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:54:11 EDT

In a message dated 98-10-22 12:30:17 EDT, you write:

<< Because at least one of them is subscribed to this mailing list and is
reading this right now. They've revealed enough in their infantile
babblings in the forum to show that they have information they could only
have read here. >>

This should come as no surprise. If you are going to defeat your enemy, you
should know of him. Shame that we can't hire foederati. These kids would
make good ones. BTW I'd suggest that all citizens remain on their guard.
These are bored kids, who get great delight out of bugging us noble Romans.

If there is any other way they can do injury to us, they are going to find out
what it is and do it. We should close as many loopholes as possible.

They don't call me " Cunctator" for no reason.
Vale!!
Q Fabius Maximus.


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:15:37 -0400

Salvete Quirites
Since Palladius and I are running unopposed we have left the talking
to others.
But now that we have been asked, I will make a brief statement for myself.
I expressed feelings of doubt to Germanicus when he went to email
citizenship applications. How committed are these people, many are only
names on a list. Even many of the Patrician Gens have never been heard from.
They have ventured little (a stamp or two) or nothing (ok typing on a
computer and some time) and gained citizenship and a vote.
We had hoped to gain more citizens before broaching this subject. But
who could think that Nova Roma would be able to meet it's goals without
funds?
I have made comments on the mail list and posted to the Message Board
endorsing JBL statues, Amazon.com, Nova Roma T-shirts and Pythia's Jewelry.
How many citizens have supported these endeavors? Out of approximately 160
citizens how many subscribe to the Eagle? Or does even every gens subscribe?
I am in favor of some form of Dues, Tax or whatever you want to call
it. How much? Certainly enough to pay for the website and whatever Forum
details we need. How do we ensure that citizens pay? This we can't do at
present we will need to pass legislation.
Printing the Eagle, t-shirts and casting coins could be debated as
separate issues.
Valete L Equitius Cincinnatus

>> You cives don't know the half of it.
>>Among other things, he kicked in an enormous amount of postage for the
>>Eagle. (That $5 only goes so far.) And we won't even MENTION the pending
>>coinage issue.
>>Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!
>>-- F. Claudia
>
>Sounds like it's time to discuss that MOST ROMAN of traditions --
>taxation!
>What have the candidates for public office to say about that and the
>liquidity of the Res Publica?
>L. Sergius Aust.


Subject:	Taxation and the treasury
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:23:59 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 LSergAust@-------- wrote:

> From: LSergAust@--------
>
> > You cives don't know the half of it.
> >Among other things, he kicked in an enormous amount of postage for the
> >Eagle. (That $5 only goes so far.) And we won't even MENTION the pending
> >coinage issue.
> >Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!
> >
> >-- F. Claudia
>
> Sounds like it's time to discuss that MOST ROMAN of traditions --
> taxation!
>
> What have the candidates for public office to say about that and the
> liquidity of the Res Publica?

Salvete! Both Lucius Equitius and myself have discussed this quite a bit.
Our main goal as consuls will be growth, both of the population and of the
treasury. The former is absolutely necessary for the latter. We need
people to put money into the treasury. We seem to be doing well on people,
with a steady increase in citizens. When we elect a quaestor whose main
job will be advertising and the promotion of Nova Roma I believe our
population will increase at a greater pace. By the way, no citizen has
offered to run for that position yet. Please consider running for this
vital position if you think that you would be able to help us promote Nova
Roma.

How to increase the treasury? The fairest way probably would be direct
taxation. However, there are many problems with that. It is not
enforceable except by connecting payment to removal of citizenship, for
it is the the only leverage we have over citizens. I am completely against
that. Not all citizens have the means to be taxed on top of whatever taxes
their macronation levels on them.
So what are our options? Our consul has mentioned several already: buy
from the businesses in the Macellum (we have one at the moment but two
more are pending), buy books from the page connected to Amazon.com and but
statues from JBL. Nova Roma receives a cut from all of these.

The other idea is something that several people have already mentioned:
direct donations to the treasury. I checked with Cassius the other day and
people can do this at any time. Within a few weeks donations will be tax
deductible as well for American citizens and taxpayers.

I have for awhile been thinking of the idea of using the
consulship--if elected-- as a "bully pulpit" to ask for donations when
needed but have wondered if that would make us appear too much like a PBS
fundraiser ("and for a $50 donation you get a Nova Roma T-Shirt" or
something on that order) or that only the same people would keep sending
money. However, judging by the willingness of people
today to give money when needed, I am less worried about appearances and
more confident in the goodwill of our citizens who have the means to
contribute (and not everyone would have the means I realize that). Such
donations would be voluntary and no lists would be published to twist the
arms of those not able to donate. As Cincinnatus mentioned in another
message, if spread among many, the cost will not be great. I am sending a
check today to the Nova Roma treasury. In addition to the website, there
is the coinage project now on hold. Please send what you can.

The address has been mentioned already but I will mention it again:

Nova Roma
P.O. Box 1897
Wells, ME 04090

Checks are made out to Nova Roma.

thank you for listening,

Valete!

Decius Iunius Palladius

Consular Candidate

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	4D. Iunius Palladius4 amcgrath@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:28:23 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Lucius wrote:

> From: 4Lucius4 v--------l@--------
>
> Salvete Quirites
> Since Palladius and I are running unopposed we have left the talking
> to others.
> But now that we have been asked, I will make a brief statement for myself.
> I expressed feelings of doubt to Germanicus when he went to email
> citizenship applications. How committed are these people, many are only
> names on a list. Even many of the Patrician Gens have never been heard from.
> They have ventured little (a stamp or two) or nothing (ok typing on a
> computer and some time) and gained citizenship and a vote.
> We had hoped to gain more citizens before broaching this subject. But
> who could think that Nova Roma would be able to meet it's goals without
> funds?
> I have made comments on the mail list and posted to the Message Board
> endorsing JBL statues, Amazon.com, Nova Roma T-shirts and Pythia's Jewelry.
> How many citizens have supported these endeavors? Out of approximately 160
> citizens how many subscribe to the Eagle? Or does even every gens subscribe?
> I am in favor of some form of Dues, Tax or whatever you want to call
> it. How much? Certainly enough to pay for the website and whatever Forum
> details we need. How do we ensure that citizens pay? This we can't do at
> present we will need to pass legislation.
> Printing the Eagle, t-shirts and casting coins could be debated as
> separate issues.
> Valete L Equitius Cincinnatus

For those citizens worried that running as a team means that we are
automatons with the same opinion, you see that is not case! However, we
will *work together* on funding and growth.

Valete!

Decius Iunius Palladius

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

4Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?4

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	4Lucius4 vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:45:33 -0400

>> From: 4Lucius4 v--------l@--------
>>
>> Salvete Quirites
>> Since Palladius and I are running unopposed we have left the
talking
>> to others. But now that we have been asked, I will make a brief statement
for >>myself.
>> But who could think that Nova Roma would be able to meet it's goals
without
>> funds?
>> I am in favor of some form of Dues, Tax or whatever you want to
call
>> it. How much? Certainly enough to pay for the website and whatever Forum
>> details we need. How do we ensure that citizens pay? This we can't do at
>> present we will need to pass legislation.
>> Printing the Eagle, t-shirts and casting coins could be debated as
>> separate issues.
>> Valete L Equitius Cincinnatus
>
>For those citizens worried that running as a team means that we are
>automatons with the same opinion, you see that is not case! However, we
>will *work together* on funding and growth.
>Valete!Decius Iunius Palladius

Yes Indeed! As you all can see there has not been a great deal of
clandestine planning :-) We do however agree that Continued Growth and
Funding are essential. I just hope that we will see greater participation
from All citizens.
Valete Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus


Subject:	Taxation
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:49:59 -0400 (EDT)

Taxation is a bugaboo which faces us all, but which if the Roman World
is to prosper, must have consideration. In the empire the roads and
bridges built for Rome were used constantly by the citizens, who paid
the taxes of the Empire that supported the Legios who in turn built the
roads of the Empire.

Todaay for the most part our road is an eletronic one, but no less
important for that. We must maintain our communication medium, for that
is the glue that binds Nova Roma together, just as friendship and a
common interet of things Roman impell us to gather in this electronic
place.

If the position of elected officers are expected to finance the everyday
operations of our 4country4 then ony the wealthy will in time stand for
election and we will find ourselves in the hands of those whose interest
is wealth and the accumulation of such as a primary effort rather than
the pursuit and study of Roman Culture.

Dex had the right of it when it was suggested that every business idea
that flourisihed within Nova Roma also contribute in some concrete
(Roman Concrete only please!) way to the institution.

Marcus Minucius Audens
Military Tribune of Engineering

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Taxation and the treasury
From:	4RMerullo4 merullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:51:50 -0400

Salvete magistri et cives

You guys are making me feel guilty! Deci Iuni, Luci Equiti, you are proving
to be adept in the arts of real world politics. Having read your posts on
this thread, I briefly felt the urge to whip out my credit card and head for
the Macellum. If Nova Roma doesnt pan out, then someone in Washington will
surely have need of good speechwriters (the foregoing paragraph totally in
jest).

For what it's worth, I have made some book purchases (if anyone hasnt looked
at the bookstore in the Macellum, check it out - fiction, reference, history
on different periods and topics) and have an order pending at the Studio at
the Sign of the Harp (Pythia's Roman jewelry). I hope to contribute more in
this way in the future.

I think that those among us who can should be ready to pay for things that
we enjoy, as necessary. I agree with Marcus Cassius Iulianus' comments on
this, and, having read his post, dont see that Nova Roma is on the verge of
disappearing for lack of funds.

Nonetheless, I think that I, like other cives, shall benefit from the
upgraded chat room, and therefore I'll join Palladius, Australicus and
others in sending a check to Nova Roma. But, before I do that, I'll wait
for Marcus Cassius, or Patricia Cassia, to confirm that the address in Maine
is working properly. I sent ground mail there a few weeks ago and it
bounced. I alerted Marcus Cassius to this and re-sent the mail; as of now,
I for one dont know whether that address is receiving all its mail.

Perhaps we should wait before we all send our checks?

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

-----Original Message-----
From: D. Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 1:24 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Taxation and the treasury

>From: 4D. Iunius Palladius4 amcgrath@--------
>
>
>On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 LSergAust@-------- wrote:
>
>> From: LSergAust@--------
>>
>> > You cives don't know the half of it.
>> >Among other things, he kicked in an enormous amount of postage for the
>> >Eagle. (That $5 only goes so far.) And we won't even MENTION the pending
>> >coinage issue.
>> >Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!
>> >
>> >-- F. Claudia
>>
>> Sounds like it's time to discuss that MOST ROMAN of traditions --
>> taxation!
>>
>> What have the candidates for public office to say about that and the
>> liquidity of the Res Publica?
>
>
>Salvete! Both Lucius Equitius and myself have discussed this quite a bit.
>Our main goal as consuls will be growth, both of the population and of the
>treasury. The former is absolutely necessary for the latter. We need
>people to put money into the treasury. We seem to be doing well on people,
>with a steady increase in citizens. When we elect a quaestor whose main
>job will be advertising and the promotion of Nova Roma I believe our
>population will increase at a greater pace. By the way, no citizen has
>offered to run for that position yet. Please consider running for this
>vital position if you think that you would be able to help us promote Nova
>Roma.
>
>How to increase the treasury? The fairest way probably would be direct
>taxation. However, there are many problems with that. It is not
>enforceable except by connecting payment to removal of citizenship, for
>it is the the only leverage we have over citizens. I am completely against
>that. Not all citizens have the means to be taxed on top of whatever taxes
>their macronation levels on them.
>So what are our options? Our consul has mentioned several already: buy
>from the businesses in the Macellum (we have one at the moment but two
>more are pending), buy books from the page connected to Amazon.com and but
>statues from JBL. Nova Roma receives a cut from all of these.
>
>The other idea is something that several people have already mentioned:
>direct donations to the treasury. I checked with Cassius the other day and
>people can do this at any time. Within a few weeks donations will be tax
>deductible as well for American citizens and taxpayers.
>
>I have for awhile been thinking of the idea of using the
>consulship--if elected-- as a 4bully pulpit4 to ask for donations when
>needed but have wondered if that would make us appear too much like a PBS
>fundraiser (4and for a $50 donation you get a Nova Roma T-Shirt4 or
>something on that order) or that only the same people would keep sending
>money. However, judging by the willingness of people
>today to give money when needed, I am less worried about appearances and
>more confident in the goodwill of our citizens who have the means to
>contribute (and not everyone would have the means I realize that). Such
>donations would be voluntary and no lists would be published to twist the
>arms of those not able to donate. As Cincinnatus mentioned in another
>message, if spread among many, the cost will not be great. I am sending a
>check today to the Nova Roma treasury. In addition to the website, there
>is the coinage project now on hold. Please send what you can.
>
>The address has been mentioned already but I will mention it again:
>
>Nova Roma
>P.O. Box 1897
>Wells, ME 04090
>
>Checks are made out to Nova Roma.
>
>
>thank you for listening,
>
>Valete!
>
>
>Decius Iunius Palladius
>
>Consular Candidate
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
>
> Non scholae sed vitae discimus.
>
> Seneca
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> 4Such things have often happened and still happen,
> and how can these be signs of the end of the world?4
>
> Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
> Extant 331-363 A.D.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
>service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
><a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>


Subject:	Re: A bit of humour in a mad world!!
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:55:01 -0400

A. Iulia wrote:

> From: 4A. Iulia4 iuliacaesaria@--------
>
> Nocturnia whispers in lovers ears,
> Giving them words to say,
> She strums her lute to the
> Beat of their hearts
> and then she is on her way.
>

So, umm...Nocturnia...
I guess you're saying you don't want to join the Vestals?

Nice poem, girl!

-- F. Claudia


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	4Patrick Dunn4 saevvs@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:13:22 PDT

>> I've paid for the change out
>> of my own pocket in compensation!
>>
>> Valete,
>>
>> Marcus Cassius Julianus
>> Consul
>

Let it be written that this year, M. Cassius Julianus, Consul of Rome,
spent his own money to build a wall to keep the barbarians out of our
fair city. Ave Juliane! Ave Juliane! Ave Juliane!

--M. Gladius Saevus


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:17:43 -0400

Lucius wrote:

> From: 4Lucius4 v--------l@--------
>
>
> I expressed feelings of doubt to Germanicus when he went to email
> citizenship applications. How committed are these people, many are only
> names on a list. Even many of the Patrician Gens have never been heard from.
> They have ventured little (a stamp or two) or nothing (ok typing on a
> computer and some time) and gained citizenship and a vote.

I'm a little worried about that, myself. I received a message from someone
wanting to join gens Claudia, but told me nothing about himself or what he
wanted from Nova Roma. I let him in, because I don't want to exclude people from
NR, but I felt uneasy about it. In the future, I think I'll insist on more
information, perhaps send back a short questionnaire. Do the Censors let someone
in a gens without asking the pater/materfamilias first? I don't know whether
this person was granted citizenship before he wrote to me, or not.

> I have made comments on the mail list and posted to the Message Board
> endorsing JBL statues, Amazon.com, Nova Roma T-shirts and Pythia's Jewelry.
> How many citizens have supported these endeavors? Out of approximately 160
> citizens how many subscribe to the Eagle?

I can answer that. Thirty subscriptions. I've tried to add value to the Eagle by
including material that you can't find on the Website and the list, which is
really difficult, because so many people post on the list and we have so much
great info on the website. My goal is to make the Eagle (someday!) a journal of
literary and philosophical debate on all things Roman, with some humor and
graphics thrown in, and extend it to more pages. This will probably mean cutting
out the color -- because it will have to go to a copy shop for publishing and
color copying is very expensive -- and going to a larger, 8 1/2 x 11 page size.
It would be great to see it on the newsstands someday, in a snazzier format.

> I am in favor of some form of Dues, Tax or whatever you want to call
> it. How much? Certainly enough to pay for the website and whatever Forum
> details we need. How do we ensure that citizens pay? This we can't do at
> present we will need to pass legislation.

We can't ensure that, at the moment. But I'm certainly not opposed to a
'voluntary taxation' temporarily, and I'll be glad to kick in my share. Perhaps
it isn't a set amount, but whatever the citizen can afford. We have lots of
impoverished students, but we also have some people making nice salaries. Uh
oh....is this Marxism? Oops!

I like the chat room, I use it, and I'm willing to kick in some money to pay my
share of the $19.95 a month it's costing us to maintain it. This is kind of like
the PBS Fund Drive pitch!

> Printing the Eagle, t-shirts and casting coins could be debated as
> separate issues.

I think they should be separate issues.

Flavia Claudia Juliana


Subject:	Citizenship and the Eagle
From:	pjane pjane@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:50:48 -0400 (EDT)

>Do the Censors let someone
>in a gens without asking the pater/materfamilias first? I don't know whether
>this person was granted citizenship before he wrote to me, or not.

As far as I know, citizenship is freely granted but gens membership is up
to the pater/materfamilias. I share the concerns about citizenship being a
privilege not valued by all who possess it; as web-Quaestrix, I recently
had occasion to e-mail the leaders of several gentes and found a couple of
them had e-mail addresses that didn't work.

>My goal is to make the Eagle (someday!) a journal of
>literary and philosophical debate on all things Roman, with some humor and
>graphics thrown in, and extend it to more pages. This will probably mean
>cutting
>out the color -- because it will have to go to a copy shop for publishing and
>color copying is very expensive -- and going to a larger, 8 1/2 x 11 page
>size.
>It would be great to see it on the newsstands someday, in a snazzier format.

Excellent goal, o Virgo Maxima! Speak to our senior Consul before making
decisions about copying - I happen to know that he's about to become
centurion to a small squadron of copiers.


Subject:	Amazon
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:39:43 -0400 (EDT)

I have been buying Roman Books regularly from Amazon, but I have no idea
how to buy books from Amazon, through Nova Roma. If someone can point me
to that information, I should be happy to bring that idea into fruation
here at 4Vine Hill.4

Which brings up another point. How man people in Nova Roma know how to
access the contacts that we already have?

In addition, I wish to make the following suggestion. While there are
many things 4in the works4 $140.00 is not much to maintain a Newsletter
and a High-Tech Chatroom with. In every other institution one pays for
full postage and printing of the newsletters. My four regiments in Cvil
and Rev. War require Annual Dues from $25.00 to $65.00 per year, and I
deal with them far less than my involvement with Nova Roma. My point
being that I am proud to pay dues to belong to a worthwhile and
intresting institution. Nova Roma is as interesting an institution as
any that I belong to, and it costs me less than any other. I really
don't like the idea of any elected or appointed officer being required
to kick in money to keep others happy who do not donate. Ancient Rome
did not, and neither should we. If their are those who cannot afford
monitarily to donate, our officers can certainly find service projects
to be accomplished equal to the required 4taxes.4

My personal feeling, based on 14 years of re-nacting experience, is that
Nova Roma sells itself short, in money, requirements of support, and in
methods of appointing or electing officers. My further personal feeling
is that candidates for elective or appointive office should donate a
stipend to Nova Roma for the privelage of standing for office, or in
lieu of money a measurable offer of time and effort to benefit the
organization. As long as Nova Roma requires nothing of her membership
aside from the privaledge of belonging, only a small percentage of the
membership will involve themselves. It has in the past and continues to
be ever so in every volunteer organization in the U.S. and Nova Roma is
no different in that respect. I am sure that there are a lot of you who
will disagree with what I have said, but before you leap to the keyboard
to put this new mmber in his place ask around you if what I have said is
not true; Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Quilting Clubs, Rotarians, Lions
Clubs, etc. are all institutions for the betterment of their
communities, and all have exactly the same problems.

Forty-five years of voluntary effort have shown me that when you believe
in something, you donate your time, effort, and money, to the, extent
that you can, support the leadership in an active way, and forward the
principles of the organization in your neighborhood and through any
contacts that you might have, personally, fraternally or professionally.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Citizenship and the Eagle
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:36:54 -0400

pjane wrote:

> Excellent goal, o Virgo Maxima! Speak to our senior Consul before making
> decisions about copying - I happen to know that he's about to become
> centurion to a small squadron of copiers.

Well...DUH. Where'd ya think I was going? Office Maximus?


Subject:	Re: A bit of humour in a mad world!!
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:13:12 -0700 (PDT)

I think I'll steer clear of the vestals!!!!

Yeah it IS a nice poem and I'm really grateful to my friend!

A. I. C. Nocturnia

---m--------oon@-------- wrote:
>
> From: m--------oon@--------
>
>
>
> A. Iulia wrote:
>
> > From: "A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
> >
> > Nocturnia whispers in lovers ears,
> > Giving them words to say,
> > She strums her lute to the
> > Beat of their hearts
> > and then she is on her way.
> >
>
> So, umm...Nocturnia...
> I guess you're saying you don't want to join the Vestals?
>
> Nice poem, girl!
>
> -- F. Claudia
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>


Subject:	Eagle Subscription
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:26:40 -0400 (EDT)

I would strongly recommend that you immediately raise the price of the
Eagle Subscription to at least $12.00 (and in light of the proposed
Postage Increase, even more).

I publish a newsletter (Black Watch Gazette) for the 42nd Regiment of
Foot. It goes to about 45 subscribers and everyone (except schools) are
charged $12.00 (schools-$6.00). The newsletter for the Garibaldi Guard
(39th New York Volunteer Regiment ) is also published at the rate of
$12.00 per year.

Especially, if you plan to make it a magazine of cultural information
and debate, the value of the magazine will reach it's own level of value
as it is more circulated. I applaud your aims and if there is anything
that I can do to assist you in this effort, please contact me. Have you
had time to consider my offer of the Letters of Eumenes Thalian
Diomedes?

Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Lusitania page...
From:	"Antonio M. R. C. Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:43:13 +0100

Salvete!

The page is now tested from outside the building.

You're welcome to

<a href="http://aurelius.inesc.pt/Lusitania" target="_top" >http://aurelius.inesc.pt/Lusitania</a>

Valete!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)


Subject:	Roman writing instruments
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:35:21 -0400

For those of you with more money than Marcus Crassus, and who have a
passion for collector's edition fountain pens, you must go to
www.bittner.com and see the MontBlanc Octavian, a silver filigree
number. the Italians weigh in with the Montegrappa Aphrodite, a silver
sculpture fountain pen, and Delta offers the Pompeii, a fabulous red &
gold pen for ONLY $1195. (that's eleven HUNDRED ninety-five.), the
Jubilee in gold with a sculpted frieze of the Vatican Piazza around the
cap for $1495, and a real bargain -- the Colosseum for $575 (which is
actually my favorite). The Jubilee was commissioned to celebrate the
Vatican's 2000th anniversary, if you're inclined to such things. I guess
the Pope gets one free. Maybe we can get a free Pompeii for the Pontifex
Maximus? And how about freebies for Vestals, I say!

Oh, and don't miss the Michel Perchin "Gothic" very limited edition
(only 10 made) sculpted gold, red enamel and pave diamond fountain pen,
which comes in an $8000 box (not included) handmade by Lord Linley. The
pen itself is a mere $42,000.

For those who shy away from this little bauble, they also have authentic
papyrus, reed pens with authentic Egyptian ink that must be dissolved in
water, and real quill pens with handmade vellum paper. These are kits
available from Savoir Faire (www.herbin.com), and really interesting.
Perfect for writing your wills, Citizens!

-- Flavia Claudia with her Sheaffer pen and her Big Chief tablet


Subject:	Re: Eagle Subscription
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:42:56 -0400

Salvete

I would strongly recommend that you immediately raise the price of the
Eagle Subscription to at least $12.00 (and in light of the proposed
Postage Increase, even more).

This should come under consideration, but not such a large jump at once. And
not this year, let us see how things go before we make too many changes.

Have you had time to consider my offer of the Letters of Eumenes Thalian
Diomedes?

These would be a great addition. I really miss getting them in the IX
Legio Hispania news letter. Great stuff.

Valete L Equitius Cincinnatus


Subject:	Re: Amazon
From:	"RMerullo" merullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:47:46 -0400

Salve Marce Minuci

-----Original Message-----
From: James Mathe--------math669642reng@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 2:40 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Amazon

You said-

I have been buying Roman Books regularly from Amazon, but I have no idea
how to buy books from Amazon, through Nova Roma. If someone can point me
to that information, I should be happy to bring that idea into fruation
here at "Vine Hill."

I say-
Point your browser to <a href="http://novaroma.org/" target="_top" >http://novaroma.org/</a>. Once there, you'll see a sort
of column on the left with the heading 'Contents'. In this column are links
to various pages on the Nova Roma website. One such link is labeled
'Macellum' (marketplace). If you click on that, you'll find a link labeled
'bookstore'. Read the material under 'bookstore' before you begin shopping
so as to ensure that Nova Roma gets a portion of the sale.

(Deletion)

You said-
any that I belong to, and it costs me less than any other. I really
don't like the idea of any elected or appointed officer being required
to kick in money to keep others happy who do not donate. Ancient Rome
did not, and neither should we. If their are those who cannot afford

I say-
Actually, people who held the office of Aedile, and other magistrates, did
sometimes make large expenditures out of their own pockets to impress their
constituents and build up a following. This was sometimes putting on lavish
games, feasts, and sometimes paying for public works such as columns. If I
ever hold office, I do not intend to attempt this; I think that it was very
bad practice, one of the worst aspects of government in the Republic.

You said-
monitarily to donate, our officers can certainly find service projects
to be accomplished equal to the required "taxes."

I say-
Uh oh! Does this mean that I may find myself with a shovel in my hand, in
some cold extremity of the midwest, manacled to a bunch of other tax-dodging
Novaromans, laboring to build The Arch of Caecilius Metellus or something?
I am joking of course. Actually, I would'nt mind doing some hard labor for
Nova Roma's benefit, except that I have little time left over subtracting
work and completion of my own humble domicile.

You said-
My personal feeling, based on 14 years of re-nacting experience, is that
Nova Roma sells itself short, in money, requirements of support, and in
methods of appointing or electing officers. My further personal feeling
is that candidates for elective or appointive office should donate a
stipend to Nova Roma for the privelage of standing for office, or in
lieu of money a measurable offer of time and effort to benefit the
organization. As long as Nova Roma requires nothing of her membership
aside from the privaledge of belonging, only a small percentage of the
membership will involve themselves. It has in the past and continues to
be ever so in every volunteer organization in the U.S. and Nova Roma is
no different in that respect. I am sure that there are a lot of you who
will disagree with what I have said, but before you leap to the keyboard
to put this new mmber in his place ask around you if what I have said is
not true; Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Quilting Clubs, Rotarians, Lions
Clubs, etc. are all institutions for the betterment of their
communities, and all have exactly the same problems.

I say-
You obviously have a lot more civic experience than I do. Good, maybe you
can teach me a thing or two. But, I dont understand how making people pay
to belong to Nova Roma is going to elicit more involvement. It will serve
to diminish the number of applications for citizenship, as those who are
lukewarm about the idea wont bother to join; but it will not, as far as I
can see, make the rest of us suddenly more creative, energetic, or possessed
of greater amounts of free time to commit.

You say-
Forty-five years of voluntary effort have shown me that when you believe
in something, you donate your time, effort, and money, to the, extent
that you can, support the leadership in an active way, and forward the
principles of the organization in your neighborhood and through any
contacts that you might have, personally, fraternally or professionally.

I say-
What you say here makes good sense to me. I am open to suggestions.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Re: Eagle Subscription
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:30:41 EDT

Salve!!

As a newsletter editor of a quarterly myself, $5.00 does seem a bit paltry for
all the minor expenses occured in publishing and mailing . The price should
be increased to at least $12.00.
People who contribute regulary to the publication could get an reduced
subscription rate as an incentive to do some writing for us.

Next, about taxation. That is going to be hard to implement. How about the
donativum instead? Have each citiizen who wishes, sponser the chat room for
the month. Credit can given. "The Chat Room is sponsered this month by:"

As for additional funds for, let's say, an emergency, I'd say use an appeal.
Much like raising an army. "The Consul needs x amount for x."

Just some thoughts

Vale
Q Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Nova Roma
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:57:20 -0400 (EDT)

Thank you very much for your kind response. I like the points that you
make, and in respons perhaps I can clarify some of my statements.

First of all, thanks for the directions to "Amazon." I wonder how many
of the Nova Roma Membership had the same problem. I am fairly new to
the internet and E-Mail, and I tend to think in terms of "Snail Mail"
and older styles of communication. I suppose that I will learn in time.

In regard to money / effort as a "payment" for the priveledge to stand
for office, I am reminded about the Greek age who felt that men in
political office should pay the State for the privaledge of
administering the laws of the state and making decisions for the
citizens of the state. It is true that many romans standing for office
littereally bribed the voters with various games and gifts, but that is
the worst of the practice. The more reasonable way would be to take on
some financial or research element as a point of progress for your time
in office in addition to your duties; Example: to pledge to support the
Eagle Mailing Costs during your term of office and then sell the idea to
some business in our area to support this financially with the promise
of free advertisement for 180+ of the Nova Roma Membership.

I was not thinking in terms of "hard labor" but rather of bringing to
the membership through the "Eagle"or other communication medium, that
which you are aware of in relation to Roman Culture. Just as my
specialty is military engineering, then you could bring your specialty
before the membership. You might not think what you know about Roman
Culture and Nova Roma significant, but others, like myself, would be
very happy to know what you know, and would support that effort.

You are of course very correct that the 10% of the Nova Roma Membership
that presently supports the 90% of what we do and say will not get more
money or time in which to do it. However, the task of any organization
is to better allote the tasks in it's membership to a larger proportion
of it's membership. "Luke warm" applicants will not "warm up" unless
they are challenged. One of the most important tenents of the Volunteer
Effort is to contact your new members, make them feel welcome in the
minimal amount of time, give them a worthwhile task, and then do not
allow them to fail. Reward them publicly and bring them in again in a
new and hopefully more meaningfull task. This philosophy is being
worked out in every Volunteer organization in the country to a varying
degree of response. In that way you increase the number working on the
task, "warm up" new members in the institution, and train tomorrows
leaders today. The Consul has good point that "in the future" Nova
Roma should become self-supporting, so what we have to do is to finance
the institution from other sources untl that time comes. Notifying /
reminding the membership about the activities that we now have is a
start. Surveying your neighborhood for interested people looking for
something new (Elderly Housing omplexes); Elder Hostel should be aware
of us, Senior Citizens Centers also should be talked with. Contact
schools in your area about providing Roman Programs for World History
Classes. Local Radio Station talk hosts who are searching continuously
for new information. Contact local newspapers for planned Roman
activties. Seek out sponsors for a Roman Window Display or short Roman
Program. Seek out local libraries and offer a one hour program once a
year on Roman Culture. These are just a few ideas which I have used in
the past with military re-enactments with quite a bit of success.

I am a member of several organizatins to which I contribute my efforts
and some cash. I am not wealthy, so I contribute more time and effort
than cash. Every grocery store in my area and every other business that
posts notices to the public has a message about the organization,
addressing it's most interesting aspects. When I visit friends or
relatives I always let them know about my organization and what it is
doing, and am prepaired to provide a source of information upon request
or evidnce of interest (flier or card). All my fraternal contacts are
aware that I am interested in Roman Military and Roman Culture, so I
become a kind of "Roman Expert" to those who are my friends and
asociates. In business, you make contacts and often just a mention of
what you do and where your interests lie, will produce a request to
discuss the matter further over cocktails or in a more persnnal time. I
have recruited several people into my regiments, just on the basis of
knowing that I was a contact for further information, In the
re-nactment season people who are currently doing someting where they
would lik a change are often interested in the fact that you represent
something new. Probably the best recruiting methods are the direct ones
where you put out 1000-2000 fliers out in one day. There is actually a
kind of expectation rule that you can figure out in the matter of
average response that can be anticipated from this procedure.

Places where Roman History and Roman Artifacts are displayed, sold, or
made should be aware of Nova Roma and persuaded by offers to make
Novaromans aware of their services and wares in return for the
purveyor's agreement to advertise Nova Roma. Book Stores, History
Magazines, History Book Clubs, Museums, Libraries are all places in
which to display information.

Marcus Minucius Audens
Miltary Triibune of Engineering

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	latest chat room configuration
From:	pjane pjane@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:14:24 -0400 (EDT)

Thanks to Consul Cassius' action, the chat room now has the capacity to
permanently ban troublemakers. Currently the only people who can do this
are Cassius and myself; I will leave it to the governing bodies of Nova
Roma to decide whether more people should be given this power.

Speaking for myself, I will not use this power lightly, and would certainly
not dream of banning anyone over mere differences of opinion, however
forcefully worded. However, we can now ban those who insult the dignitas of
Nova Roman Citizens.

Participants will note two changes: 1) Numbers appear ahead of your handle.
This represents your IP address, and is a necessary evil if the banning
function is to work.

2) Each message is now time-stamped. This is because the old time-stamp
didn't work right.

I'm sorry there's been so much trouble over the chat room! It's a great way
to build Nova Roman community, and I hope it will continue to be used for
that purpose.

Patricia Cassia


Subject:	Re: Eagle Subscription
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:55:21 -0400

James Mathews wrote:

> I would strongly recommend that you immediately raise the price of the
> Eagle Subscription to at least $12.00 (and in light of the proposed
> Postage Increase, even more).

Not my decision!

> . Have you
> had time to consider my offer of the Letters of Eumenes Thalian
> Diomedes?
>

Is this something you want to submit to the Eagle? Just write it and e-mail it to
me. Thanks!

F. Claudia


Subject:	Re: Eagle Subscription
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:08:27 -0400 (EDT)

Those are some great ideas. They would be fairly easy to set up, the
Consuls could decide what a real emergency is or is not, and the
Treasury would certainly be placed on a firmer basis.

Marcus Municius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Eagle Subscription
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:05:47 -0400

SFP55@-------- wrote:

> From: SFP55@--------
>
>
> Next, about taxation. That is going to be hard to implement. How about the
> donativum instead? Have each citiizen who wishes, sponser the chat room for
> the month. Credit can given. "The Chat Room is sponsered this month by:"

Nice idea. Maybe each gens could sponsor? Legios? Vestals?....wait a minute...!

> As for additional funds for, let's say, an emergency, I'd say use an appeal.
> Much like raising an army. "The Consul needs x amount for x."

"... and if he doesn't get it, the Proscription Lists will be printed in this
month's Eagle!"

I can see it now: Marcus Cassius Julianus -- The TERMINATOR!

Seriously, any jump in subscription rates for the Eagle should be determined by
me, the Consuls and maybe the new Tribune of the Plebs after the elections. The
reason the price was originally set at $5 (as I understand it -- I wasn't Curatrix
then) was because it was only in black & white and come out only 10x a year. I
arbitrarily made the decision to go to 12x a year, but I don't want to arbitrarily
increase the price without some approval and discussion from the Senate and the
People.

-- F. Claudia


Subject:	Re: Eagle Subscription
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:21:38 -0400 (EDT)

I did not suppose that the decision to raise the subscription rate
rested with the Magazine Editor. However, I think that it should be
considered by all members, since current experience indicates that
$12.00 is charged in similar circumstances, with considerably less time
and effort spent in Editing and Producing a similar end product.

I asked about the articles at the suggestion of the honored Consul to
give you the opportunity to let me know what the Magazine will accept.
since military material does not seem to be a big thing in Nova Roma,
Since I have never seen a copy of your magzine, that was, I thought, a
reasonable action to take.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Web site update
From:	pjane pjane@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:37:36 -0400 (EDT)

A few of you found favor with Cassius' words on the list yesterday,
describing why Nova Roma matters. With his permission, I've added them to
the Frequently Asked Questions file on the Web site, under "Is this some
kind of role-playing group?"

At Lucius Equitius' kind suggestion I also updated the Current Events page
to reflect what we know about the 1999 Roman Days, and added information
for the Concordia ritual planned in Maine for Jan. 16.

If your gens or provincia is planning a gathering, let us know! We like to
hear about Nova Roman community even when we can't take part physically.
Patricia Cassia


Subject:	Re: Nova Roma
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:44:36 -0400

Ave et Salvete
This sounds like the kind of person the Senate is looking for to run
for Quaestor.
Seems like you are just the man for the job, and experinced too! How about
it M Minucius Audens?
Valete L Equitius Cincinnatus

-----Original Message-----
From: James Mathe--------math669642reng@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 5:04 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Nova Roma

Thank you very much for your kind response. I like the points that you
make, and in respons perhaps I can clarify some of my statements.

First of all, thanks for the directions to "Amazon." I wonder how many
of the Nova Roma Membership had the same problem. I am fairly new to
the internet and E-Mail, and I tend to think in terms of "Snail Mail"
and older styles of communication. I suppose that I will learn in time.

In regard to money / effort as a "payment" for the priveledge to stand
for office, I am reminded about the Greek age who felt that men in
political office should pay the State for the privaledge of
administering the laws of the state and making decisions for the
citizens of the state. It is true that many romans standing for office
littereally bribed the voters with various games and gifts, but that is
the worst of the practice. The more reasonable way would be to take on
some financial or research element as a point of progress for your time
in office in addition to your duties; Example: to pledge to support the
Eagle Mailing Costs during your term of office and then sell the idea to
some business in our area to support this financially with the promise
of free advertisement for 180+ of the Nova Roma Membership.

I was not thinking in terms of "hard labor" but rather of bringing to
the membership through the "Eagle"or other communication medium, that
which you are aware of in relation to Roman Culture. Just as my
specialty is military engineering, then you could bring your specialty
before the membership. You might not think what you know about Roman
Culture and Nova Roma significant, but others, like myself, would be
very happy to know what you know, and would support that effort.

You are of course very correct that the 10% of the Nova Roma Membership
that presently supports the 90% of what we do and say will not get more
money or time in which to do it. However, the task of any organization
is to better allote the tasks in it's membership to a larger proportion
of it's membership. "Luke warm" applicants will not "warm up" unless
they are challenged. One of the most important tenents of the Volunteer
Effort is to contact your new members, make them feel welcome in the
minimal amount of time, give them a worthwhile task, and then do not
allow them to fail. Reward them publicly and bring them in again in a
new and hopefully more meaningfull task. This philosophy is being
worked out in every Volunteer organization in the country to a varying
degree of response. In that way you increase the number working on the
task, "warm up" new members in the institution, and train tomorrows
leaders today. The Consul has good point that "in the future" Nova
Roma should become self-supporting, so what we have to do is to finance
the institution from other sources untl that time comes. Notifying /
reminding the membership about the activities that we now have is a
start. Surveying your neighborhood for interested people looking for
something new (Elderly Housing omplexes); Elder Hostel should be aware
of us, Senior Citizens Centers also should be talked with. Contact
schools in your area about providing Roman Programs for World History
Classes. Local Radio Station talk hosts who are searching continuously
for new information. Contact local newspapers for planned Roman
activties. Seek out sponsors for a Roman Window Display or short Roman
Program. Seek out local libraries and offer a one hour program once a
year on Roman Culture. These are just a few ideas which I have used in
the past with military re-enactments with quite a bit of success.

I am a member of several organizatins to which I contribute my efforts
and some cash. I am not wealthy, so I contribute more time and effort
than cash. Every grocery store in my area and every other business that
posts notices to the public has a message about the organization,
addressing it's most interesting aspects. When I visit friends or
relatives I always let them know about my organization and what it is
doing, and am prepaired to provide a source of information upon request
or evidnce of interest (flier or card). All my fraternal contacts are
aware that I am interested in Roman Military and Roman Culture, so I
become a kind of "Roman Expert" to those who are my friends and
asociates. In business, you make contacts and often just a mention of
what you do and where your interests lie, will produce a request to
discuss the matter further over cocktails or in a more persnnal time. I
have recruited several people into my regiments, just on the basis of
knowing that I was a contact for further information, In the
re-nactment season people who are currently doing someting where they
would lik a change are often interested in the fact that you represent
something new. Probably the best recruiting methods are the direct ones
where you put out 1000-2000 fliers out in one day. There is actually a
kind of expectation rule that you can figure out in the matter of
average response that can be anticipated from this procedure.

Places where Roman History and Roman Artifacts are displayed, sold, or
made should be aware of Nova Roma and persuaded by offers to make
Novaromans aware of their services and wares in return for the
purveyor's agreement to advertise Nova Roma. Book Stores, History
Magazines, History Book Clubs, Museums, Libraries are all places in
which to display information.

Marcus Minucius Audens
Miltary Triibune of Engineering

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Taxation fears
From:	amethystcrystallight@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:01:34 -0500

Salvete --

I know the taxation is very new, but.........

I am not a 'supporting citizen'. I would love to subscribe to the Eagle
but, frankly, I cannot afford it. Not even at a 'paltry' $5.00. I saved
the long past emails on books because someday I might find these books in
the library. Buying them it out of the question. I cannot buy my
children new things (Terry and I wear hand-me-downs and shop in thrift
stores exclusively). I suppose it would not be an understatement to say
"I'm so poor I can't pay attention". I don't use Juno because it is such
a wonderful e-mail system, I use it because it's free and I can afford
that.

I can....gee, what CAN I do?? I can use my artistic talents or
calligraphy talent (freehand or using the ol pen) to draw up posters or
flyers or something. But I cannot afford to send it to a printer or even
back to someone who can. I can give my opinion (which is worth about
what I make a year). Well, maybe I can't offer anything.

The taxation issue scares me so much I came pretty close to deleting it
without even reading it (and I read EVERYTHING my dear Pallidus writes).
I haven't paid taxes in many years, (at least not on say, groceries) even
to the US government (if you can't guess why, you really DO live in a
fantasy world -- yes, that was meant to be a funny). It is not my fault,
but I feel so shamed sometimes I don't know what to do.

I suppose I allowed myself to be blinded by the tax issue, although I
knew it would come up someday. You never get something for nothing. I
am a citizen who cannot afford any taxes. Will I someday have to give up
my citizenship because of it. Hell, right now I am not considered a
'productive' member of society. I do not know that I could bear being
'unproductive' or 'shamed' in TWO societies.

I post fearfully..........

Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
amethystcrystallight@--------
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>

___________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: Taxation fears
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:22:52 -0400

Salvete Quirites
Rumor Volat!
There is no tax. There is not even a proposed tax.
But neither can we expect Marcus Cassius Julianus to pay for
everything himself. We are coming up with some good ideas for raising funds.
Please don't Panic.
Valete L Equitius Cincinnatus
-----Original Message-----
From: Amethyst C Light amethystcrystallight@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 6:09 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Taxation fears

>From: amethystcrystallight@-------- (Amethyst C Light)
>
>Salvete --
>
>I know the taxation is very new, but.........
>
>I am not a 'supporting citizen'. I would love to subscribe to the Eagle
>but, frankly, I cannot afford it. Not even at a 'paltry' $5.00. I saved
>the long past emails on books because someday I might find these books in
>the library. Buying them it out of the question. I cannot buy my
>children new things (Terry and I wear hand-me-downs and shop in thrift
>stores exclusively). I suppose it would not be an understatement to say
>"I'm so poor I can't pay attention". I don't use Juno because it is such
>a wonderful e-mail system, I use it because it's free and I can afford
>that.
>
>I can....gee, what CAN I do?? I can use my artistic talents or
>calligraphy talent (freehand or using the ol pen) to draw up posters or
>flyers or something. But I cannot afford to send it to a printer or even
>back to someone who can. I can give my opinion (which is worth about
>what I make a year). Well, maybe I can't offer anything.
>
>The taxation issue scares me so much I came pretty close to deleting it
>without even reading it (and I read EVERYTHING my dear Pallidus writes).
>I haven't paid taxes in many years, (at least not on say, groceries) even
>to the US government (if you can't guess why, you really DO live in a
>fantasy world -- yes, that was meant to be a funny). It is not my fault,
>but I feel so shamed sometimes I don't know what to do.
>
>I suppose I allowed myself to be blinded by the tax issue, although I
>knew it would come up someday. You never get something for nothing. I
>am a citizen who cannot afford any taxes. Will I someday have to give up
>my citizenship because of it. Hell, right now I am not considered a
>'productive' member of society. I do not know that I could bear being
>'unproductive' or 'shamed' in TWO societies.
>
>I post fearfully..........
>
>Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
>amethystcrystallight@--------
><a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at <a href="http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html" target="_top" >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html</a>
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>


Subject:	Re: Taxation fears
From:	pjane pjane@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:44:04 -0400 (EDT)

Amethystia asked:

>Will I someday have to give up
>my citizenship because of it. Hell, right now I am not considered a
>'productive' member of society. I do not know that I could bear being
>'unproductive' or 'shamed' in TWO societies.

That was certainly not the case in ancient Rome - if you were born a
Citizen, you were a Citizen, regardless of the state of your purse. I feel
quite sure that the leaders of Nova Roma are aware of the financial
constraints some Citizens face. I also feel certain others would join me
in disapproving any proposal that would establish financial requirements
for joining our little organization.

The issue of how to fund our activities has many facets. Do not be afraid
to join the debate; your opinion matters. Out of spirited debate, such as
that on this list, come ideas and solutions.

Patricia Cassia


Subject:	Re: Taxation fears
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:36:20 EDT

>I can....gee, what CAN I do?? I can use my artistic talents or
>calligraphy talent (freehand or using the ol pen) to draw up posters or
>flyers or something. But I cannot afford to send it to a printer or even
>back to someone who can. I can give my opinion (which is worth about
>what I make a year). Well, maybe I can't offer anything.
>
>The taxation issue scares me so much I came pretty close to deleting it
>without even reading it (and I read EVERYTHING my dear Pallidus writes).
>I haven't paid taxes in many years, (at least not on say, groceries) even
>to the US government (if you can't guess why, you really DO live in a
>fantasy world -- yes, that was meant to be a funny). It is not my fault,
>but I feel so shamed sometimes I don't know what to do.
>
>I suppose I allowed myself to be blinded by the tax issue, although I
>knew it would come up someday. You never get something for nothing. I
>am a citizen who cannot afford any taxes. Will I someday have to give up
>my citizenship because of it. Hell, right now I am not considered a
>'productive' member of society. I do not know that I could bear being
>'unproductive' or 'shamed' in TWO societies.

Goodness, don't be "fearful!" I seriously doubt that the notion of
revoking citizenship for not contributing money would even make it to a
vote. It would be too odious an action, and Nova Roma needs citizens too
much. And you do contribute ideas and discussion, which is what keeps
Nova Roma going at this point in its history.

No fire or shelter within 500 miles of Nova Roma for anyone seeking to
exile Amethystia Inunia!

L. Sergius Aust.

in ullam rem ne properemus.


Subject:	Re: Taxation fears
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:36:14 EDT

>That was certainly not the case in ancient Rome - if you were born a
>Citizen, you were a Citizen, regardless of the state of your purse.

That was certainly true with regard to citizenship. However the state of
your purse very definitely determined whether you were in the Senate.
And, until Gaius Marius' reforms to cope with the loss of tens of
thousands of wealthy Romans fighting the Germans, the state of your purse
even determined if you were allowed to serve in the legions.

I would not favor taking away citizenship for failure to pay taxes. It
might be appropriate to make voting rights contingent upon taxes, but
that would require further thought and debate.

A more proactive approach might be to add a(nother!) page on the Web
site, listing the names of contributing citizens, as both recognition and
incentive. If you listed the amounts of citizens' contributions, you
could even elicit some competition, as some strove not to have the
smallest contributions listed there.

L. Sergius Aust.

aut amat aut odit mulier: nihil est tertium.
Publilius Syrus


Subject:	Re: Taxation
From:
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:36:10 EDT

>In the empire the roads and
>bridges built for Rome were used constantly by the citizens, who paid
>the taxes of the Empire that supported the Legios who in turn built the
>roads of the Empire.
Actually, I think you'll find that it was the Empire and _not_ the Roman
citizens who paid the bulk of the taxes -- or rather had the taxes ripped
and beaten and squeezed out of them by contractual tax collectors, which
was a big part of the reason to keep garrison legions everywhere, and a
big part of why the empire ultimately fell.

I think it's important to increase our census of citizens. But adding new
citizens with little or no interest in contributing to Nova Roma won't
help one bit. I'm not convinced that online citizenship applications were
a good idea. However, that remains to be seen. I do think that all
citizens should be willing to contribute a little money, no matter
whether we desparately need it now or not, just as a token of willingness
to contribute. Afterall, in Roma Antiqua, if you didn't meet up to the
minimum standard of wealth, you couldn't be a senator or even a foot
slogger in the army, patrician or not.

Vale,
L. Sergius Aust.

p.s. Nothing personal intended, Marcus Minucius, but I've been looking
for the appropriate place to use this particular signature, and I just
can't wait any longer!

itane? tua mater!


Subject:	Re: Taxation fears
From:	Ricci razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:07:32 -0700

Salvete

LSergAust@-------- wrote:

> A more proactive approach might be to add a(nother!) page on the Web
> site, listing the names of contributing citizens, as both recognition and
> incentive. If you listed the amounts of citizens' contributions, you
> could even elicit some competition, as some strove not to have the
> smallest contributions listed there.
>
> L. Sergius Aust.
>

I don't like this idea. I have not "contributed money" to Nova Roma before
today.
But I have paid money out of my pocket on some projects for Nova Roma.
I even kept the receipts for a while, just in case I wanted to prove it. I
threw them
away because I thought such would be churlish. Besides, incurring expenses
was
part of what Roman magistrates did. [I will not engage in the other side of
the coin of
what Roman governors were known to do, skim money from the province for their

personal ... Reward(?). :-) ]

Of course citizens can buy statues to themselves. Those of the appropriate
ego size can
give a donation with the stipulation that their name is broadcast.
[Humor warning: This has been an attempt at humor. You may now go about your
business.}

another 2 as in the cista of private opinion

Valete

Caius Aelius Ericius
Praetor of California Province


Subject:	Re: Taxation and the treasury
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:11:13 EDT

I have kept quiet somewhat during this issue because...well...my damn mailbox
is just too full.

But anyway...while I am not opposed to taxation, I would like to inquire as to
the amount and the frequency of such a thing.

Personally I believe we can forgoe the tax in favor of now charging a small
and humble one time processing fee for new applicants requesting citizenship.
This will help keep somewhat of a steady stream of money incoming to the
treasury and discourage any "barbarians" from joining our Republic as a spy or
infiltrator.

If such a fee be imposed, a date should be set (perhaps Jan 1 1999) but not
mentioned in any literature.

While we have applications coming in from the Internet, perhaps we can approve
applications but withhold formal citizenship until such a fee is paid to the
treasury. This of course will require that Quaestors promptly cash checks
coming in so as applicants do not feel cheated or tricked.

Furthermore, this e-mail list should be restricted to Citizens Only. If
infiltrators are coming in, it is now just too damn easy for them to plug into
our domestic queries.

Ok...that's my 2 cents.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: A "taxing" debate
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:23:45 -0500 (CDT)

I came home today to find my whole mail box full up with Nova Roma
e-mails. Taxes???
Wait a minute. I know we need funds to do virtually anything but I have
an idea. Has anyone here heard of the Link Exchnge Affiliate Program???
There was I believe at least a thousand potential advertisers to choose
from along with their terms. They pay either per click or on a
commission basis depending on who is being dealt with. This could help
pay for some of our expenses if we just set aside some space on our
websight. Nothing has to prevent us from putting entirely Roman related
commerce on- does it? Like a school group selling candy bars we should
be able to encourage economic growth where we can get it. - especially
from pay per click advertisers who cost citizens or visitors nothing and
can help supplement us- we could also get something we could use too-
like the advertiser that sells Lobster on ice overnight was one I would
like to try once in a while ( that one is on commission too- I think 5%
or 10% )- Any reason why we shouldn't use this service- L.Ex.?- check
it out everyone at
http]://revenue.linkexchange.com/

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	Re: A "taxing" debate
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:26:12 -0500 (CDT)

I think I wrote that a little wrong- here

<a href="http://revenue.linkexchange.com/" target="_top" >http://revenue.linkexchange.com/</a>

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	Re: Taxation
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:15:15 EDT

In a message dated 98-10-22 13:50:16 EDT, you write:

<< we will find ourselves in the hands of those whose interest
is wealth and the accumulation of such as a primary effort >>

You mean this isn't the e-mail list of the Ferengi Alliance? Oh my stars and
planets! I'm in the wrong quadrant!

--D'amien L'uciat D'ehtsi
Praetor General of the Romulan Star Empire
(and still High Priest of Fashion Extraordinairre!)


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	"Robert Woolwine" Alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:31:48 -0700

Oh..trying to put us on the spot..eh...lol

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Quaestor
-----Original Message-----
From: LSergAust@-------- LSergAust@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 8:22 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!

>From: LSergAust@--------
>
>> You cives don't know the half of it.
>>Among other things, he kicked in an enormous amount of postage for the
>>Eagle. (That $5 only goes so far.) And we won't even MENTION the pending
>>coinage issue.
>>Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!
>>
>>-- F. Claudia
>
>Sounds like it's time to discuss that MOST ROMAN of traditions --
>taxation!
>
>What have the candidates for public office to say about that and the
>liquidity of the Res Publica?
>
>L. Sergius Aust.
>
>
>
>certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>


Subject:	Re: Amazon
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:29:12 EDT

In a message dated 98-10-22 14:39:57 EDT, you write:

<< My further personal feeling
is that candidates for elective or appointive office should donate a
stipend to Nova Roma for the privelage of standing for office, or in
lieu of money a measurable offer of time and effort to benefit the
organization. As long as Nova Roma requires nothing of her membership
aside from the privaledge of belonging, only a small percentage of the
membership will involve themselves. It has in the past and continues to
be ever so in every volunteer organization in the U.S. and Nova Roma is
no different in that respect. I am sure that there are a lot of you who
will disagree with what I have said, but before you leap to the keyboard
to put this new mmber in his place ask around you if what I have said is
not true; Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Quilting Clubs, Rotarians, Lions
Clubs, etc. are all institutions for the betterment of their
communities, and all have exactly the same problems.
>>

Please don't take this as an attack...but we are not the Boy Scouts or the
Girl Scouts or the Lions or the Elks. We are NOVA ROMA! And if we were to
ask that applicants for office offer a stipend, we would be limiting those
positions only to a select few. We shouldn't base our leadership on the
ability or willingness to pay a stipend (even if it is a humble one).

I think the answer lies in a one time processing fee for citizenship
application or a yearly citizens tax (dues). This decision is best left to
the Consuls after December's election. I think it will make for good
campaigning!

--Dexippus
<<who can neither deny nor confirm his running for Consul>>


Subject:	Re: Chat Room Woes... and a Victory!
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:24:13 EDT

In a message dated 98-10-22 14:24:43 EDT, you write:

<< Do the Censors let someone
in a gens without asking the pater/materfamilias first? I don't know whether
this person was granted citizenship before he wrote to me, or not. >>

The censors do assign a gens to new citizen applicants without asking the
pater/materfamilias. Recently someone has joined Nova Roma under my gens but
I did not receive any communication from the Censors to validate this person's
claim of gens sponsorship.

But before anyone goes checking the Gens list and attacking Iustina Luciania
Orbianna, let me say that she did contact me before applying for citizenship
and formally requested sponsorship by Gens Luciania. We have conversed often
and after gaining a general idea of the type of person she is (not a
"barbarian"), I gave her permission to apply for citizenship under my Gens'
sponsorship.

I did not rebuke the Censors for including her in my Gens because unofficially
she has been made a member. We are currently finalizing the details of her
membership in Gens Luciania. At the completion of such, I will formally
acknowledge her as part of my family and introduce her to my fellow citizens.

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania

<<Orbianna...if you're reading this....see ya at Samhain! : ) >>>>>


Subject:	Re: A "taxing" debate
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:46:23 -0500 (CDT)

I am very against being any mandatory fee as a condition of gaining
citizenship- also being an international organization would any of you
really like to ever be bothered trying to convert pesos, rubles,
lira,etc.- I doubt it-lol.
I think a pretty good indicator for seeing what type of real
participation/interest we have is to find out of all the citizens who
are online how many are/are not subscribed to this e-mail list. Who
would want their e-mail box stuffed to overcapacity with Nova Roma posts
often if they weren't interested in the dialog? Yes I know not all of
the citizens are online too.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	Re: Eagle Subscription
From:	"Robert Woolwine" Alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:55:00 -0700

-----Original Message-----
From: m--------oon@-------- m--------oon@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 2:12 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Eagle Subscription

>From: m--------oon@--------
>
>
>
>SFP55@-------- wrote:
>
>> From: SFP55@--------
>>
>>
>> Next, about taxation. That is going to be hard to implement. How about
the
>> donativum instead? Have each citiizen who wishes, sponser the chat room
for
>> the month. Credit can given. "The Chat Room is sponsered this month
by:"
>
>Nice idea. Maybe each gens could sponsor? Legios? Vestals?....wait a
minute...!
>
>> As for additional funds for, let's say, an emergency, I'd say use an
appeal.
>> Much like raising an army. "The Consul needs x amount for x."
>
>"... and if he doesn't get it, the Proscription Lists will be printed in
this
>month's Eagle!"

Hey..thats my department..!

>I can see it now: Marcus Cassius Julianus -- The TERMINATOR!
>
>
>Seriously, any jump in subscription rates for the Eagle should be
determined by
>me, the Consuls and maybe the new Tribune of the Plebs after the elections.
The
>reason the price was originally set at $5 (as I understand it -- I wasn't
Curatrix
>then) was because it was only in black & white and come out only 10x a
year. I
>arbitrarily made the decision to go to 12x a year, but I don't want to
arbitrarily
>increase the price without some approval and discussion from the Senate and
the
>People.
>
>
>-- F. Claudia
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>


Subject:	Re: Taxation fears
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:59:14 EDT

Leading Senator:
"Therefore fellow Senators I ask you....shall we continue to build luxurious
and extravagant buildings for the rich? Or shall we strive to build
affordable housing for the poor? What say thee Senators?"

Senators:
"@#%& The Poor!"

(as Paraphrased from Mel Brooks' "History of the World Part I")

I don't think this would go well in NR's Senate...not even amongst us
Patricians!

--Dexippus


Subject:	Better taxes through reproduction?? :-)
From:	amethystcrystallight@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:05:43 -0500

On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:44:04 -0400 (EDT) p-------- p--------@--------
writes:

>That was certainly not the case in ancient Rome - if you were born a
>Citizen, you were a Citizen, regardless of the state of your purse.

hehehe.....weeeeellll

If nothing else, I can give Nova Roma one (if not the ONLY) born Citizen.
Well, not 'give'...but you know what I mean (I hope). I'm knittin as
fast as I can!!!!

Feeling much better about the tax thing now (as long as I am not asked to
populate Nova Roma with 'natural' citizens).

(Humor warning: NO!! Nova Roma is NOT going to be given my second born
in lieu of cash!!)

And thanks for the support L. Sergius

<<<No fire or shelter within 500 miles of Nova Roma for anyone seeking to

exile Amethystia Inunia!

L. Sergius Aust.>>>

Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
amethystcrystallight@--------
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at <a href="http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html" target="_top" >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html</a>
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


Subject:	Re: A "taxing" debate
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:04:45 EDT

In a message dated 98-10-22 21:29:45 EDT, you write:

<< Has anyone here heard of the Link Exchnge Affiliate Program???
There was I believe at least a thousand potential advertisers to choose
from along with their terms. They pay either per click or on a
commission basis depending on who is being dealt with. This could help
pay for some of our expenses if we just set aside some space on our
websight. Nothing has to prevent us from putting entirely Roman related
commerce on- does it? >>

This is a good idea and would get our name out into the mainstream.

--Dexippus

Edina: "I PR things, darling!"
Saphy: "Like What? Pop-Specs?"
Edina: "Yes! Pop-Specs!"
Saphy: "And what else, mum?"
Edina: "Pop-Specs...and....and...and...."
Patsey: "Lu-Lu!!!!"
Edina: "Yes! Lu-Lu!"


Subject:	Re: Eagle Submissions
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:24:52 -0400

James Mathews wrote:
>>
> I asked about the articles at the suggestion of the honored Consul to
> give you the opportunity to let me know what the Magazine will accept.
> since military material does not seem to be a big thing in Nova Roma,
> Since I have never seen a copy of your magzine, that was, I thought, a
> reasonable action to take.
>
Oh no, we'd appreciate military material...we just haven't had any so
far! Please feel free to send it along. I try to keep articles to about
500 words, but anything longer can be serialized.

-- F. Claudia


Subject:	Re: A "taxing" debate
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:27:29 -0500 (CDT)

How could that get OUR name onto the mainstream unless WE were
selling something and paid the huge fee to be listed on the affiliate
program? This was just so that we could get affiliates perhaps on our
page and then the people who come through the Nova Roma sight from
wherever and could click on them- generating our kickback per click or
through commission- it wouldn't get us any additional hits or public
exposure. Too bad it can't do that though.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	Re: Taxation fears
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:33:24 -0400

Amethyst C Light wrote:
>

>
> I can....gee, what CAN I do?? I can use my artistic talents or
> calligraphy talent (freehand or using the ol pen) to draw up posters or
> flyers or something. But I cannot afford to send it to a printer or even
> back to someone who can. I can give my opinion (which is worth about
> what I make a year). Well, maybe I can't offer anything.
>
> my citizenship because of it. Hell, right now I am not considered a
> 'productive' member of society. I do not know that I could bear being
> 'unproductive' or 'shamed' in TWO societies.
>
Whatta ya mean you're not considered "productive" and "can't offer
anything"? You certainly contribute a lot to this list and we enjoy
hearing from you! And from healing help you've requested for other
people, it's obvious you're a nice person, too.

Besides, you're going to produce a little Citizen. I call that DAMN
productive!

-- Flavia Claudia