Subject:	Re: The constitution was Explanations
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 09:16:55 -0500

Mike Macnair wrote:


> . On religious grounds, too, the essence of
> classical public religion is the PUBLIC PERFORMANCE of ceremonies, not the
> inner belief of the participants - which was certainly pretty diverse by
> the late Republic.

Yes, I agree...for unlike contemporary Christianity which is very concerned
with the inner beliefs, ancient religion focused on actions. In the same vein,
it is possible to be an observant Orthodax Jew, and an agnostic (though not an
atheist) without committing a sin.

>
>
> The more general issue which is raised is I guess this. For those of us
> who, like myself, were attracted by Nova Roma primarily as a place in which
> the classical Religio is cherished and our religious belief can find
> collective expression, including the recognition of the numina of public
> life, there will always be a certain worry about downplaying the Religio -
> because, after all, NR is a small but very fast-growing group, & there are
> relatively few neo-classical pagans out there, but a hell of a lot of
> Christians & atheists who are more or less into classical civilization.

And there are also many more Celtic/Norse/Wicca and Craft based pagans out
there as well.

>

> NR
> therefore could easily as it grows more or less accidentally cease to
> provide collective space for the followers of the Religio. Accepting
> Germanicus' interpretation of the Constitution & that one of our founders,
> an ex-Consul, should be a Senate member, is one thing. Making larger
> amendments to the Constitution to downplay the Religio would be another
> altogether.
>
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

I joined for the same reasons, and I have the same concerns. With all due
respect to everyone, I do not want to see the commitment to the Olympian
Deities diluted to accomodate either "the religions of the Book" or pagans from
the majority religions. If this causes people to search their own hearts and
perhaps adopt the universalism the Public Religio was meant to foster, than
that is a good thing.

Best, and ever in the service of the Olympians,
Pythia



> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject:	Re: Asatrur
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 00:58:14 -0800

Heill og Saell Roman Folk - Salus et Fortuna Omnes;

Asatru is a modern reconstruction of the Religious expression of the
Beliefs know by the pre-Christian German and Nordic Peoples. We give
Honor and Friendship to a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses know as the
Aesir and Vanir. These are two families of Deities who were at war, but
through treaty and an exchange of hostages, settled into a peaceful
(mainly) relationship.

Asatru is Retro-Heathen in the same way as is Nova Roma, a revival based
on the available documentary and archaeological evidence.

As in Nova Roma, there is a vast array of personalities in evidence in
the membership. Some tolerant of other views and some intolerant. Some
who come in to partake of the offered re-creation, others who wish to
snipe from within.

I came to Nova Roma because of a lifelong interest in Roman history,
culture and military/engineering achievement. I also came to Nova Roma
understanding that the Official State Religion is Roman Paganism, so be
it. I understand that anyone is welcome, if they respect this purpose.

Please ask yourselves: if you can't, why are you here?

In Frith and Faith - Benedictus

Piparskegg Ullrsson - Stephanus Ullerius Venator

aka Steven P. Robinson

Subject:	Re: Completely lost!! Almost literally!!
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 01:00:47 -0800

Health and Luck Amethyst!

Fear not, your home will be safe.

In Service, Venator

Subject:	Re: religious wars
From:	"Michael Cessna" clinkerbuilt@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 00:03:21 PST

Subject: [novaroma] Re: religious wars
>>
Salevte, omnes!,

I have refrained from comment on this subject, to date, as I try
very hard not to 'get in anyone's face' when it comes to religion. I
don't like Christians trying to brow-beat me into a system of beliefs
that I have little or no feeling for--and I can't say that I'm
particularly thrilled at the implications of fellow Pagans trying to do
the same thing.

One of the primary reasons for my interest in NR is my belief in the
essential quality of the early Republic. Not the Empire. At the end of
the day, I honestly doubt that I would wish to live under a monarchial
or imperial system of government...but, then, never having done so, who
can say?

Yes, the 'being' of the early Republic (and the Empire that
followed) was intricatly enmeshed with the beliefs and practices of what
is now termed a 'Pagan' religion. And, w/o my sources in front of
me(l'academe for "Off the top of my head"), I do believe that members of
the Senate, magistrates, etc, did have specific religious functions.....

On the other hand, I also recall the station of women, throughout
most of the Roman period, as being quite unenviable, at least as
compared to what is known of Celtic practices. Women in both the
Republic and Empire were not permitted citizenship; if I'm incorrect on
this, please, someone give me a reference I can look up. In NR, however,
women enjoy the benefis of full citizenship, when they 'sign on', no
strings attached.

In addition, slavery was a normal practice throughout the ancient
world, and Rome was certainly no exception.(And, please, don't tell me I
have to explain 'Spartacus' to anyone!) Yet, without looking at the
constitution, I'm pretty sure that, if slavery is mentioned at all, not
only is it in the negative, but it is specifically proscibed.

If these practices,to perhaps over-simplify the situation, both of
which were integral to the charactor of Roma Aeterna, can be altered to
suit the character of Nova Roma, why not religion?

Now, don't misunderstand me, here. After six years in the Naval
Legions of the Western Barbarians, I would never even consider making
the statement that religion was not important. Pietas[sp?] is certainly
one of the(if not THE) most important characteristic of a society. But
NR is, I think we can all agree, greater than the sum of its parts.

Is there REALLY no room for debate on this? Does the only attraction
for citizenship in Nova Roma lay in the beliefs of the Old Gods? Is
there nothing else?

Gnaeus Marius Asiaticus

Subject:	Re: Explanations
From:	"Nathan Hicks" moman@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:09:19 -0500

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Dunn saevvs@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 11:27 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Explanations


>From: "Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
>
>Is anyone keeping track of which candidates are flamming whom, so I can
>make sure not to vote for any of them?


I can't keep track of the politicking either. I'm now resigned
to the only other option: voting for Jesse 'The Body' Ventura.
At the very least, he and his co-Consul will make an excellent
tag-team.


Rusticus

Subject:	Re: religious wars
From:	Mike Mac-------- m.mac--------@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:53:17 +0000

Gnaeus Marius Asiaticus wrote:

...
> Is there REALLY no room for debate on this? Does the only attraction
>for citizenship in Nova Roma lay in the beliefs of the Old Gods? Is
>there nothing else?

Yes! - But ... NR is a voluntary organisation. As far as those of us
attracted to the worship of the Old Gods in its roman form are concerned,
there isn't another voluntary organisation which does the business - so
people who have this starting point are entitled to worry about being
diluted out of existence by the desire to accommodate non-supporters of the
Religio who are more generally into civic republicanism or classical
civilisation - which are interests well covered by other voluntary
organisations.

As it happens, I don't think that accepting Germanicus as a member of the
Senate actually threatens this problem. But some of the arguments which
have been put up for doing so - & notably this post of Asiaticus' - do do
so.

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	(no subject)
From:	Fabio Incutti incutti@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:33:15 +0100

Salvete omnes,
As a very new citizen, I've read with the greatest interest the present debate that and I hope that my points will help to clarify the matter.
1) About amendments to the constitution. Every constitution of every nation could be amended, in order to keep the law updated with the "social feeling". At the same time, a few basic statements of the constitution itself are strictly connected with the idea of associated life that citizens have and, for this reason, they cannot be changed (right of vote, equality, dignity of the person, etc.). In the present case, the idea of rebuilt Roman Republic and its values can not exist without the restoration of Roman religion. The Alma Mater was a "confessional" nation and, for this reason, can not abandone the point without turning in something else.
For the above reason, if we all agree, the present situation should be evaluated under the light of present constitution.
2) A possible way-out. Our constitution didn't "create" individual magistrates (i.e. "Sempronius will be censor"), but offices, abstract positions to be held, from time to time, by individuals. If this is true, it is not the magistrate as an individual who is required to honor the gods of Rome; it is the "office" of the magistrate that must comply with the state religion, to ensure that the office itself will always respect and act in full respect of constitution. Therefore, there is no point of conflict for the magistrate as an individual to refuse to tribute honors to the gods of Rome, even if, as a private, he does not belive.

Pro bono pacis.

Primus Fabius

Subject:	pro bono pacis
From:	Fabio Incutti incutti@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:35:25 +0100

Sorry, my finger was faster than my mind and I clicked "send" before giving a title to the message; it was: Pro bono pacis.

Salvete

Primus Fabius

Subject:	You're not "completely lost", you were just temporarily misplaced! ;)
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:17:41 EST

In a message dated 11/5/98 12:45:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
amethystcrystallight@-------- writes:

> I don't mean to appear stupid or uninformed, but it *has* been some time
since I have been able to actually *read* the NR web page, Constitution,
etc.

It seems that there are a few folks who haven't been able to do this! ;) The
info is right on the Nova Roma website. Actually, we're fairly fortunate that
we've been able to publish most everything to the Internet. At least people
can return to the site if something comes up that they don't remember!


>I joined Nova Roma looking for other Roman Pagans. I was the only one I
knew, then I met another who aimed me at Nova Roma. Here I have found
what I was looking for -- a Family of Roman Pagans (and Others -- I
consider you *all* my Family, Pagan or no, like it or no). The
historical restoration part is, I admit, over my head and beyond my
understanding. Frankly the religious aspects were *all* I was interested
in.

Rome is a pretty big subject, most everyone has a "favorite" area of interest.
There are plenty of people within Nova Roma follwing the Religio Romana, so
there's no reason to suddenly feel alienated! However, there are also people
who are simply interested in other aspects of Roman culture. No reason for it
to be something that's "over your head", there's nothing particularly scary
about folks being interested in ancient cooking, costuming, brewing, or
whatever! :)

> Nova Roma *is* and still *will be* about and for Roman Pagans, right?

For you, and many others, yes. For others, Nova Roma will be a Micronation,
and a place where historical culture can be explored and participated in. The
Religio Romana will always be respected and preserved, but surely we don't
want to suddenly become intolerant and start having problems with others over
belief, which is a very personal thing. This is why Nova Roma has made a clear
distinction between Public and Private religion from the start...

>I
try to keep my life simple (and my gods have seen to this *quite*
efficiently). I haven't read too many books on Rome, it's history, or
anything like that. I am not a historian, or a restorian (is that even a
word?) or anything like that. I'm just a Roman Pagan and a Mommy (not
necessarily in that order). I would like to use my ordination to some
use, and have applied to one of the Priesthoods, but that's about as
'complicated' as I'd like to get. I'll probably vote, provided the whole
process doesn't wind up confusing or nauseating me too much (I know
voting is important, but a confused voter is a useless voter -- that much
I *do know).

You, and everyone else, are always welcome to partipate only in the aspects of
Nova Roma which interest you best.

> So all I want to know is, I guess, is that Roman Paganism still has it's
place here. If it doesn't, where do *I* go?

LOL! Of course Roman Paganism still has it's place here. It's the State
Religion, and will always remain a major focus of Nova Roma. We're working on
re-establishing the Priesthood, and will in the future be holding public rites
and events, and hopefully we'll be able to rebuild many of the ancient Pagan
areas of worship into flourishing religious systems once again.

However, this doesn't mean that Religio Romana will be the ONLY focus in Nova
Roma, or the only thing that gets discussed on the list, live chat, message
board, etc. Just as there are people with no interest in religion, there are
also Roman Pagans who have a LOT of general historical interest... so it's
always gratifying to see that other aspects of Roman Civilization are being
explored as well!


Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:05:55 EST

In a message dated 11/4/98 2:20:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
legion6@-------- write--------r>
<< Salvete omnes...

>This whole thread and the attendant dialogue in the chatroom have
touched upon several points which I had previously raised in a personal
correspondence with Consul Cassius. The occasion that time was a
proposal that got floated (as such proposals have been every now and
again since I was first accepted for Citizenship) to make me a Quaestor
of some sort, with partial responsibility for the Citizen database.

Yes, this certainly did happen. Fimbria happens to be very knowledgable on
several Roman subjects, not the least of which is a wonderful understanding of
Roman names. I'd hoped that she could be a Quaestor, keeping a copy of the
Citizen list. This unfortunately didn't work out - for the simple reason that
her computer simply didn't have enough memory to handle the task. :(

>For those of you new to the List, or who have not had the opportunity
to chat with me on these matters, let me present the crux of the
matter: I am a very tolerant, yet devout, Christian. I have also been
practicing the Via, if not the Religio, Romana for many years on a deep
personal and philosophical level. On top of that I seem to have skills
which are occasionally highly sought-after in our young Republic. The
net result of this combination of circumstances has been less than
happy for me or for Nova Roma. You see, for the first time in my Roman
life I feel I am being asked to choose between my Christianity and my
Romanitas, the twin wellsprings of my soul. I was not expecting this
and do not like it.

No one EVER asked Fimbria to choose between her Romanitas and her
Christianity. She and I corresponded a few times... she has chosen (and had
opportunity) to post one of these personal correspondence letters to the list.
I, and hopefully everyone else, will continue to respect Fimbria's faith and
personal boundaries.

>Here is what I said to Consul Cassius on the matter:

> ---quote---
You may be wondering where my thought processes are going as far as
accepting the Quaestorship (or any other office within Nova Roma) is
concerned...

> The last time we discussed this publicly it led into a very nice
exchange between Cornelius Sulla and myself about our respective
religious experiences. In the process he asked me what a Pelagian
Christian (the sect I belong to) believes. (I am extremely condensing
this, so if it sounds brusque it isn't meant to be.) I explained about
Pelagius' teaching that man's free will is just as important to his
salvation as God's grace--since without either God's grace or man's
choice, the thing doesn't happen. I said this belief tends to show up
in daily life as a basic unwillingness to wait until one is told to
before doing something cool; that if God has given one the interest,
the ability, and the opportunity to perform a task, it would be
redundant to rotate on one's thumb until given His specific permission
as well. And no sooner had I typed this when I thought 'BINGO!!
--there's my answer!'

> So the upshot of it is that I would not have any religious objection to
serving Nova Roma in whatever capacity I may. Now there is only that
niggling matter of the oath...on which subject you have said:

>It states that the Magistrate is willing to work with the Pagan format
>of Nova Roma... i.e. will show respect for the Religio Romana and
>not "work against it" publicly even though it's not their private
>path. This does NOT mean that you have to do Pagan rituals, or profess
>a faith you don't share.

> Let's have a look at the thing. Keep in mind that what may not be a
problem for people of one faith may be very much an obstacle for people
of another (you wouldn't try to sell a computer to a Luddite, would
you...?):

>I, (name), do hereby solomnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma,
>and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate
>of Nova Roma.

>No problem there, unless we get in a populares-vs.-optimates situation
down the road (then the best interests of the People and the best
interests of the Senate may be two different animals entirely); but
there is no religious reason why I could not swear to do this.

>As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, (name), swear to do honor to the Gods
>and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,...

> *Now* we run into trouble. What is meant here by 'honor'? There is a
very great difference between being asked to do a thing and being asked
merely not to interfere with others doing a thing. This clause does
not say 'I will not *work against* the Gods of Rome'; it says that I
will actively *honor* Them. I cannot simply refrain, if I am reading
this correctly; I must partake. There is no option here to stand by
and let the experts handle it.

>...and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

> This I do and have done my entire Roman life (seven years and growing).

>I, (name), further swear to fufill the obligations and
>responsibilities of the office of (title) to the best of my abilities.

>No problem there either, unless the obligations and responsibilities
should include religious ones. I am assured that such is not the case
with my proposed Quaestorship, but I am discussing this on a more
general level (as in, you are likely to keep running into this as long
as Nova Roma remains open to anyone who is not a Roman Pagan).

>On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
>and Goddesses of the Roman People and by Their will and favor, do I
>accept the position of (title) and all the rights, privileges,
>obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

>This does not bother me personally. One reason I am not an evangelist
is that I have never been so sure of anything that I could say with a
straight face that the world must needs be what I think it is, or else.
It violates nothing to say, "Okay, I believe in one God, but there may
be others out there; and if there are, They are certainly watching me
do this and They don't seem to mind." But coupled with paragraph 2
it's a bit of a speed bump.

>Now the fun part (or, are you *quite* certain this is as benign as
everybody says it is?):

> Per Article VI, Section 1 of our Constitution (and before I figured out
I was a Roman I had a serious enthusiasm for constitutional law),

>...All magistrates and Senators, as officers of the State, shall be
>*required* [emphasis mine] to observe the Sacred Days of the Year, and
>to *honor and offer sacrifice to* [emphasis mine again] the Gods and
>Goddesses that made and make Rome great. ...

> Now what am I supposed to do with that? Again, I am being required to
participate (actively, by the sound of it) rather than merely asked not
to keep others from doing so...
---end quote---

>I had made what I thought was a thorough reading of the Constitution
and the Web site before I applied for Citizenship. I had pretty well
accepted that, in the great framework of Nova Roman affairs, I was
going to be a just-plain-Roman. We will need many such, if only to
give our Magistrates something to do and someone to do it for! <g>
But then I kept getting offered things, indeed beginning with my
Praetor's initial contact-slash-recruiting pitch.

As far as I know, Fimbria is a pretty neat, (and richly skilled!) person, so
it has been only natural that Nova Roma would be interested in working with
her, especially since she's kept up her participation. However, as far as I
know, she was only "offered" two things... her local Praetor wrote to her once
about something, and I asked her once if she'd like to help maintain the
Citizen list, since she wrote to me out of the blue with a good amount of
advice on Citizen names, etc.

>Let me make this plain: I am not ambitious for office. I am more than
willing to do whatever work is required, with or without a fancy
nameplate. But the whole religious-qualification thing bothers me on a
more general level. Can any nation afford to arbitrarily deny itself
the services of any willing and capable Citizen, for any reason
including religious ones? Is Nova Roma, even at this early stage,
going to cut off Her nose to spite Her face?

The religious policy of Nova Roma has been clear from the start. Certainly it
is not something that has been created to bring division among Citizens. The
issues in this particular instance have been with Fimbria's *personal*
boundaries, rather than with policy itself. Fimbria has been good (and
moderate) enough in her beliefs to accept Citizenship, and to participate on
the lists, live chat, etc.

However, the thought of being a Magistrate has made her personally
uncomfortable. In such a capacity she'd be asked to be publically respectful
of the Religio Romana, and even possibly to be respectfully present if a rite
were to be held at a public Roman event. Those conditions were simply more
than she was personally comfortable with, and that's perfectly OK! :)

> Something has to give here. Either we allow [non-Roman] Pagans and
non-[Roman Pagans] to rise to the level of their abilities; or we quit
offering them positions they cannot in good conscience accept,
involving duties they cannot perform with any sincerity. If in fact
the Constitution means '...an it harm none, do as you will'; if the
intent of the Founders was (as is repeatedly asserted) that anyone with
the talent and the inclination should be able to ascend the Cursus
Honorum, why, then, the thing ought to be amended to say so clearly and
in a manner not to be mistaken. If such is not the case, then it is
irresponsible for our materials (Web site, etc.) or our Magistrates to
hint otherwise.

Again, the religious policy of Nova Roma has been quite clear. Fimbria is
simply uncomforable with it. Other people have NOT been uncomfortable with it.

>It's a strange and wonderful world that tosses me into the same boat as
a Norse Pagan, a Jew, and a former Consul--all dear friends, as much as
anyone can be in cyberspace. I mean that--I couldn't ask for better
companions on this little roller-coaster policy ride... But back to
the issue: This is not, as I've stated above, the last time this
question is going to come up. We need to get this hashed out and
properly decided; it will save future Citizens of non-Roman faiths a
lot of frustration and getting their hopes up.

It already HAS been decided, and about as equitably as anything I've ever
personally seen. Nova Roma makes clear distinction between Public and Private
religion, and accepts anyone... so long as they have an interest in ancient
Rome.

Magistracy is a little different than Citizenship, however. Non Religio Romana
Magistrates are welcomed... so long as they agree not to try and upset the
foundation on which Nova Roma was built.

The Constitution and Oath have been written specifically so that only
"moderate" non-Pagans will become Magistrates. This will ensure that no
Fundamentalist Citizen could ever take the reigns of the Mictonation and begin
actively working against the Relgio Romana. On the other side of that fence,
Nova Roma has specific provisions that there is a difference between Public
and Private religion, and that non Pagan Citizens will be welcomed and invited
to participate. Fair's fair.

On a personal note... I am a Pagan who follows the Religio Romana. I try to
work hard at being tolerant of other faiths as much as I can. For instance,
I have no problem whatever in attending the occasional Christian service, and
sitting respectfully. I'll even take Communion when offered, realizing the
link between that and the Communion within Mithraism, a great spiritual
interest of mine. (I happen to consider this the equivalent of an "offering"
by the way, which Frimbria seemed to have an issue with.) I very much welcome
ANY non-Pagan Citizen to follow the political Cursus Honorum, so long as they
are able to afford the same considerations for my path that I do theirs. If
they cannot do this, then surely other ancient Roman interests within Nova
Roma are more suited to them.

> In the dreaded words of the loyal housewife, "Honey, we gotta talk..."!

And we have been talking, pretty amiably, too! We may never agree on this
issue, but hopefully we can agree not to let it divide us completely. Anyone
out there care to start a thread on ancient Roman triremes or something? ;)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

Subject:	Re: Uphold the Constitution
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:12:18 EST

In a message dated 11/4/98 8:51:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
m--------oon@-------- wr--------:

<<
Masterofhistory wrote:

> What's wrong with all of you? This is Germanicus you are talking
> about. I and many Nova Romans would be happy to see him back in the
> Senate. Constitution, I kept reading... Germanicus helped write the
> thing! We ought to be more welcoming and more generous to the man who
> helped start it all.

>I'm glad he's back too, and I welcome him as a fellow Citizen.
But no one has the right to override the Constitution. If Thomas Jefferson
came back and announced he'd like to be President but he didn't want to go
through all that election stuff, I'd still say, "Sorry, Tommy..YOU helped
write it, now YOU abide by it, just like the rest of us." It works, and it
works for everyone.

That's all very well and good, but no one is talking about overriding the
Constitution here. It certainly would be if the issue was suddenly posting
Germanicus for CONSUL again... but Senate is not an elected post and it's
perfectly legal to consider him for such a Senatorial position. Germanicus HAS
abided by the Constitution, just like the rest of us... he's applied to the
Senate for a non-elected position, and has waited for the Senate to make a
decision.

>The NR Constitution stands for all of us, not the selected few. No one
stands above it. Or are you suggesting that it might be appropriate for us
to switch from a Republic to an Empire? I like Germanicus, but he ain't
Julius Caesar (and look what happened to HIM!)

Again, this would make perfect sense if the issue was for the Consulate.
However, it isn't, so this argument seems a bit of a non sequiter.

> I think Germanicus did the honorable thing by withdrawing his request. Now
let's do the right thing and honor his request and have no more of this
unconstitutional debate. No one person shall ever be allowed to tear Nova
Roma apart, and Germanicus obviously did not have that in mind.

Now the debate itself is unconstitutional? I'm afraid that also is not the
case.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Elections
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:23:46 EST

Salvete Omnes!

I was just wondering if there were any plans to put up the long-awaited Contio
(voter guide), and if there were going to be any scheduled debates for the
three candidates for the Tribunate?

I, for one, would appreciate seeing a comprehensive listing of who was running
for what office. Even when those people are unopposed, it'd be nice to see
who's going to be what in the coming year. (Especially since there are still
nine days for potential candidates to announce themselves for office.) Could
someone post such a list of candidates?

The US elections are just over. Let's get into the swing of the NR elections.
At least the Tribune race should be exciting!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Subject:	Another book for the bookstore - Roman Realities
From:	"RMerullo" merullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:33:21 -0500

Salvete Patricia Cassia et alii

I just finished 'Roman Realities' by Finley Hooper. This is a quick history
of Roma from early Republic to the end of the Western Empire, with more time
spent on the late Republic (Cicero, Caesar, Triumvirates) than any other
period. I think that this is a good book for anyone interested in covering
a lot of the general history in short time.

Published 1979 by Wayne State University Press, Detroit, Michigan
ISBN: 0-8143-1593-3

Enjoy.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Theocracy was Constitution/Explanations
From:	"Merullo" Merullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:18:31 -0500

Salvete


-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Dunn saevvs@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 10:27 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Constitution/Explanations


You wrote -
>
>We're setting ourselves up for a theocracy here. Is that what we want?
>If so, I'll support it (after all, it's *my* religion in charge for a
>change!), but I think you want to think before you do. (That was a
>collective "you")
>

I say -
As a small part of that collective "you", I'll provide feedback to your
query.

I disagree that Nova Roma is headed for theocracy, even if (and it's
unlikely anyway) the religious participation of magistrates is maintained.
Why? Because, in a theocracy, God (in some form) is held at the center and
above all the machinery of the state and citizenry, as in, say, the
Byzantine Empire (my favorite theocracy). Or in post-revolution,
present-day Iran.

But Nova Roma seeks to re-build the Roman Republic, where worship of the
Roman Gods was an integral part of Roman life, but, was not "source of
authority" of the officials wielding power. Indeed, no Republic can ever be
a real theocracy, because power is given to people through elections, and
the law serves the citizen rather than God or God's appointed Earthly
mouthpiece.

I think that the reign of Diocletian is important to examine for contrast
with the Republic and even the Principate in regard to this issue. Under
Diocletian, the Emperor was no longer "First among the Citizens", but rather
the Autocrator (was'nt this term first used for Diocletian?), serving in
lieu of the Gods on Earth. There was little or no such thing as religious
freedom: Christians were persecuted as never before, because their
differing belief amounted, quite accurately, to a disagreement with the
premise legitimizing the authority of the Emperor. So the Roman Empire
evolved (or, better to say, decayed) into a pretty theocratic state. The
tables would be turned later, of course, in that the Christians would have
their decades to persecute the Pagans, but it became, at least in my view,
very much the same in its net results - oppression based on religious
intolerance.

Nova Roma is not headed for this as of now. Hell, some citizens here seem
to object even to acknowledging that Diocletian ever lived, let alone
entertain the idea of adopting elements of his world.

Can anyone here imagine any of us prostrating ourselves before (insert name
of NR official), Son of Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, Born God and Emperor?
You'll have to impale me first to force my corpse into prostration.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
>
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Subject:	Re: religious wars
From:	"Merullo" Merullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:18:37 -0500

Salvete Gnaee Mari et alii

You posed some interesting questions:
>
> If these practices,to perhaps over-simplify the situation, both of
>which were integral to the charactor of Roma Aeterna, can be altered to
>suit the character of Nova Roma, why not religion?

I think that Nova Roma can strive to re-build Religio Romana, which it is
undertaking (according to its web-published literature) as the social
foundation for a re-built Republic. Religio Romana is at the top of the
agenda, not the bottom or middle (again based on NR literature).

Will the results of this re-building effort ever be a duplicate of Religio
Romana as practiced in Roma Antiqua during the Old Republic? I wouldn't bet
on it. But it may be rewarding nonetheless.
>
> Now, don't misunderstand me, here. After six years in the Naval
>Legions of the Western Barbarians, I would never even consider making
>the statement that religion was not important. Pietas[sp?] is certainly
>one of the(if not THE) most important characteristic of a society. But
>NR is, I think we can all agree, greater than the sum of its parts.

I definitely agree with you here.
>
> Is there REALLY no room for debate on this? Does the only attraction
>for citizenship in Nova Roma lay in the beliefs of the Old Gods? Is
>there nothing else?

Not at all, from my point of view. I came with an interest in, no, actually
a strong biased admiration of, Roman history. But, I was pretty slow to
submit an application to join, and have for the time being dismissed the
idea of serving as a magistrate because of the emphasis on belief in Religio
Romana. I respect that emphasis, though, because I think that Germanicus'
and Iulianus' premise of Religio Romana as the foundation for the whole
thing is very sound. And, as Iulianus has recently reminded us, there is no
compulsory practice of the Religio Romana here; citizens can believe, or
not believe, however they wish.

The stickiest issues right now seem to involve, though, to what extent
magistrates, and separately perhaps, senators, should be required to honor
Religio Romana. I of course have no answer, other than what I have already
posted on the subject.

Vale Gnaee Mari et valete amici


Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Call for Civic Involvement
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:26:52 EST

Salvete!

In answer to my own question about who's running for what, I've plumbed the
depths of the list archives and the message board and come up with the
following candidates (if I've missed anyone, please let me know):

Consul (2): Decius Iunius Palladius, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
Tribune Plebis (2): Avidius Tullius Callidus, Antonius Gryllus Graecus,
Quintus Caecilius Metellus
Praetor Urbanis (2): Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica
Curule Aedile (2): No candidates
Plebian Aedile (2): No candidates
Quaestor (3): Patricia Cassia

So, we only have one office for which there are more candidates than positions
(Tribune Plebis), two offices which are completely empty, and one office with
2/3 empty positions.

Come on, people, this is terrible!

Aediles: These folks are in charge of public ceremonies, gatherings, etc. Are
you planning on holding a NR feast, festival, or gathering next year? (Why
not???). Do you have experience in setting up these sorts of things? Can you
give that advice to others who might want to set things up? Come on, all you
SCAdians (experienced autocrats especially) and reenactors! This is for you!!!

Quaestors: These are the administrative minions of the other magistrates,
particularly the Censors and Consuls. Do you know how to run a database? Know
web design? Can you answer questions from new applicants and/or the press?
Send out mailings and work up flyers? Computer folks and office types, here's
your niche!

(Please note that this next part has nothing to do with the people already
standing for office, but is more a general call for people to participate.)
And for the rest of the jobs, why don't we see more people trying for them!? I
wouldn't mind seeing some real electioneering going on. Surely some of you
have a vision for how Nova Roma should be progressing. Next year is going to
be critical for us. With questions of religion, recruitment, relations with
other micronations, etc. all on our plate in the upcoming year, let your voice
be heard! Sure, Consul takes up a lot of time and energy, but the rewards are
more than equal to the task. Show us your vision, put your imprint on Nova
Roma, and run for Consul!

And Praetor Urbanis, that oft-overlooked job, is no less critical. The
Constitution makes provision for an entire coterie of laws, the Leges Novae
Romae. So far, there isn't one! You can help guide Nova Roma in its formative
years; help us come up with the general principles that will form the basis of
our legal code. There are sure to be lots of laws put in place by the Comitiae
next year; your filling this position could be crucial in seeing that they are
interpreted correctly and put into practice justly and fairly. Those with a
legalistic bent, come on and be the Chief Justice Marshall of Nova Roma!

There are still nine days (until November 14th, according to the web site) for
candidates to declare themselves. I urge everyone to seriously consider
running for office, to enliven and enrich our political process. The system
can't work without everyone's participation; come on and participate!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Subject:	Re: Elections
From:	"Antonio M. R. C. Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:47:35 -0000

Salvete omnes!

>(voter guide), and if there were going to be any scheduled debates for the
>three candidates for the Tribunate?
I'd be very glad! Especially to have a debate with Consul and Tribune
candidate Metellus, in order to prove that he is a candidate of the
Patricians and not of the Plebeians!!! =))))

Valete!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)


-----Original Message-----
From: JoeBloch@-------- JoeBloch@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 2:24 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Elections


>From: JoeBloch@--------
>
>Salvete Omnes!
>
>I was just wondering if there were any plans to put up the long-awaited
Contio
>(voter guide), and if there were going to be any scheduled debates for the
>three candidates for the Tribunate?
>
>I, for one, would appreciate seeing a comprehensive listing of who was
running
>for what office. Even when those people are unopposed, it'd be nice to see
>who's going to be what in the coming year. (Especially since there are
still
>nine days for potential candidates to announce themselves for office.)
Could
>someone post such a list of candidates?
>
>The US elections are just over. Let's get into the swing of the NR
elections.
>At least the Tribune race should be exciting!
>
>Valete,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>

Subject:	Re: Call for Civic Involvement
From:	"Antonio M. R. C. Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:09:16 -0000

Salvete omnes!

>So, we only have one office for which there are more candidates than
positions
>(Tribune Plebis), two offices which are completely empty, and one office
with
>2/3 empty positions.
What if there are vacant positions after the elections? Will the Censors or
the Senate appoint volunteers?

Valete!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)

-----Original Message-----
From: JoeBloch@-------- JoeBloch@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 4:29 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Call for Civic Involvement


>From: JoeBloch@--------
>
>Salvete!
>
>In answer to my own question about who's running for what, I've plumbed the
>depths of the list archives and the message board and come up with the
>following candidates (if I've missed anyone, please let me know):
>
>Consul (2): Decius Iunius Palladius, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
>Tribune Plebis (2): Avidius Tullius Callidus, Antonius Gryllus Graecus,
>Quintus Caecilius Metellus
>Praetor Urbanis (2): Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica
>Curule Aedile (2): No candidates
>Plebian Aedile (2): No candidates
>Quaestor (3): Patricia Cassia
>
>So, we only have one office for which there are more candidates than
positions
>(Tribune Plebis), two offices which are completely empty, and one office
with
>2/3 empty positions.
>
>Come on, people, this is terrible!
>
>Aediles: These folks are in charge of public ceremonies, gatherings, etc.
Are
>you planning on holding a NR feast, festival, or gathering next year? (Why
>not???). Do you have experience in setting up these sorts of things? Can
you
>give that advice to others who might want to set things up? Come on, all
you
>SCAdians (experienced autocrats especially) and reenactors! This is for
you!!!
>
>Quaestors: These are the administrative minions of the other magistrates,
>particularly the Censors and Consuls. Do you know how to run a database?
Know
>web design? Can you answer questions from new applicants and/or the press?
>Send out mailings and work up flyers? Computer folks and office types,
here's
>your niche!
>
>(Please note that this next part has nothing to do with the people already
>standing for office, but is more a general call for people to participate.)
>And for the rest of the jobs, why don't we see more people trying for
them!? I
>wouldn't mind seeing some real electioneering going on. Surely some of you
>have a vision for how Nova Roma should be progressing. Next year is going
to
>be critical for us. With questions of religion, recruitment, relations with
>other micronations, etc. all on our plate in the upcoming year, let your
voice
>be heard! Sure, Consul takes up a lot of time and energy, but the rewards
are
>more than equal to the task. Show us your vision, put your imprint on Nova
>Roma, and run for Consul!
>
>And Praetor Urbanis, that oft-overlooked job, is no less critical. The
>Constitution makes provision for an entire coterie of laws, the Leges Novae
>Romae. So far, there isn't one! You can help guide Nova Roma in its
formative
>years; help us come up with the general principles that will form the basis
of
>our legal code. There are sure to be lots of laws put in place by the
Comitiae
>next year; your filling this position could be crucial in seeing that they
are
>interpreted correctly and put into practice justly and fairly. Those with a
>legalistic bent, come on and be the Chief Justice Marshall of Nova Roma!
>
>There are still nine days (until November 14th, according to the web site)
for
>candidates to declare themselves. I urge everyone to seriously consider
>running for office, to enliven and enrich our political process. The system
>can't work without everyone's participation; come on and participate!
>
>Valete,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
>service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
><a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>

Subject:	Filling Empty Magistracies
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:20:09 EST

In a message dated 98-11-05 12:07:11 EST, Antonius Gryllus Graecus writes:

> What if there are vacant positions after the elections? Will the Censors or
> the Senate appoint volunteers?

Unfortunately, they cannot. (The Censors never come close to having such
powers vis-a-vis magistrates.) Specifically, paragraph I.6. of the
Constitution states "From the time of ratification until the first scheduled
elections, the Senate may fill all offices by Senatus Consulta, as necessary."
and V.9. states "If any other magistrate should vacate his or her office
before the regular end of the term, the Senate shall appoint a magistrate to
fill it through the end of the term."

Thus, the special conditions that have allowed the Senate to make appointments
are gone as of November 14th. After that time, the Constitution only allows
for them to fill offices where a magistrate leaves, not one that was never
filled in the first place. It's a quirk in the way the Constitution is
written, which was under the assumption that the mechanisms of government
would be fully in place as of 1999. We never considered the possibility that
there wouldn't be a full slate of candidates for the first elections.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Subject:	Re: Call for Civic Involvement
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:31:28 -0500

>Salvete omnes!
>What if there are vacant positions after the elections? Will the Censors or
>the Senate appoint volunteers?
>Valete!
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)


Salvete Quirites
I believe that this first year has set the precedent for Senatorial
appointments. Any empty posts would be open to qualified applicants. The
preferred method is by election.
Valete, L Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus

Subject:	New cult for NR!
From:	m--------oon@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 12:15:28 -0500

A new foreign cult has been proposed for Nova Roma: that of the
mysteries of Cornholio.

As I understand it, these are ecstatic rites involving ingesting great
amounts of sugar and caffiene and wearing a ceremonial hood attached to
a knit-fabric tunic, while holding the arms in a prayerful position.
Cornholio has his own Oracle, and the method of divination is
interesting: the Augur (who is a young male), sits almost motionless
before a great glass altar, on which the will of the God is projected.
As Cornholio is associated with music and setting stuff on fire, both
are revealed through the Augur. The pronouncements of the God through
the Augur come in only a "yes-no" form which is expressed in the God's
particular language: "This sucks" or "This doesn't suck." The greater
interpretation of these cryptic phrases is left to the flamen
Cornholius, who always takes a particular cognomen common to this
worship: Beavis, of the gens Capitapodex. (I may have mistranslated the
Latin for this.)

The adolescent priests of Cornholio (limited to two) are celebate, not
by choice but by the insistence of the God's female worshippers.

I believe that this proposal should come before the Pontifices for
consideration immediately.

-- Flavia Claudia Juliana

Subject:	Re: New cult for NR!
From:	"Antonio M. R. C. Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:56:52 -0000

Salvete omnes!

>As I understand it, these are ecstatic rites involving ingesting great
>amounts of sugar and caffiene and wearing a ceremonial hood attached to
>a knit-fabric tunic, while holding the arms in a prayerful position.
Are you kidding? Sugar and caffeine in ancient Rome? Where have you read
this thing?
Anyway, for me this looks as shocking as the cult of Magna Mater! =)

Vale!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)

-----Original Message-----
From: m--------oon@-------- m--------oon@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 5:45 PM
Subject: [novaroma] New cult for NR!


>From: m--------oon@--------
>
>A new foreign cult has been proposed for Nova Roma: that of the
>mysteries of Cornholio.
>
>As I understand it, these are ecstatic rites involving ingesting great
>amounts of sugar and caffiene and wearing a ceremonial hood attached to
>a knit-fabric tunic, while holding the arms in a prayerful position.
>Cornholio has his own Oracle, and the method of divination is
>interesting: the Augur (who is a young male), sits almost motionless
>before a great glass altar, on which the will of the God is projected.
>As Cornholio is associated with music and setting stuff on fire, both
>are revealed through the Augur. The pronouncements of the God through
>the Augur come in only a "yes-no" form which is expressed in the God's
>particular language: "This sucks" or "This doesn't suck." The greater
>interpretation of these cryptic phrases is left to the flamen
>Cornholius, who always takes a particular cognomen common to this
>worship: Beavis, of the gens Capitapodex. (I may have mistranslated the
>Latin for this.)
>
>The adolescent priests of Cornholio (limited to two) are celebate, not
>by choice but by the insistence of the God's female worshippers.
>
>I believe that this proposal should come before the Pontifices for
>consideration immediately.
>
>-- Flavia Claudia Juliana
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
>service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
><a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>

Subject:	Re: Call for Civic Involvement
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:53:40 -0800

You left out one...Germanicus, (good another candidate)!!! =)

Marcus Minucius Audens is running for Quaestor too!

So. we need one more Quaestor for a full house! (not forgetting all the
Aediles!)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis


-----Original Message-----
From: JoeBloch@-------- JoeBloch@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:29 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Call for Civic Involvement


>From: JoeBloch@--------
>
>Salvete!
>
>In answer to my own question about who's running for what, I've plumbed the
>depths of the list archives and the message board and come up with the
>following candidates (if I've missed anyone, please let me know):
>
>Consul (2): Decius Iunius Palladius, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
>Tribune Plebis (2): Avidius Tullius Callidus, Antonius Gryllus Graecus,
>Quintus Caecilius Metellus
>Praetor Urbanis (2): Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica
>Curule Aedile (2): No candidates
>Plebian Aedile (2): No candidates
>Quaestor (3): Patricia Cassia
>
>So, we only have one office for which there are more candidates than
positions
>(Tribune Plebis), two offices which are completely empty, and one office
with
>2/3 empty positions.
>
>Come on, people, this is terrible!
>
>Aediles: These folks are in charge of public ceremonies, gatherings, etc.
Are
>you planning on holding a NR feast, festival, or gathering next year? (Why
>not???). Do you have experience in setting up these sorts of things? Can
you
>give that advice to others who might want to set things up? Come on, all
you
>SCAdians (experienced autocrats especially) and reenactors! This is for
you!!!
>
>Quaestors: These are the administrative minions of the other magistrates,
>particularly the Censors and Consuls. Do you know how to run a database?
Know
>web design? Can you answer questions from new applicants and/or the press?
>Send out mailings and work up flyers? Computer folks and office types,
here's
>your niche!
>
>(Please note that this next part has nothing to do with the people already
>standing for office, but is more a general call for people to participate.)
>And for the rest of the jobs, why don't we see more people trying for
them!? I
>wouldn't mind seeing some real electioneering going on. Surely some of you
>have a vision for how Nova Roma should be progressing. Next year is going
to
>be critical for us. With questions of religion, recruitment, relations with
>other micronations, etc. all on our plate in the upcoming year, let your
voice
>be heard! Sure, Consul takes up a lot of time and energy, but the rewards
are
>more than equal to the task. Show us your vision, put your imprint on Nova
>Roma, and run for Consul!
>
>And Praetor Urbanis, that oft-overlooked job, is no less critical. The
>Constitution makes provision for an entire coterie of laws, the Leges Novae
>Romae. So far, there isn't one! You can help guide Nova Roma in its
formative
>years; help us come up with the general principles that will form the basis
of
>our legal code. There are sure to be lots of laws put in place by the
Comitiae
>next year; your filling this position could be crucial in seeing that they
are
>interpreted correctly and put into practice justly and fairly. Those with a
>legalistic bent, come on and be the Chief Justice Marshall of Nova Roma!
>
>There are still nine days (until November 14th, according to the web site)
for
>candidates to declare themselves. I urge everyone to seriously consider
>running for office, to enliven and enrich our political process. The system
>can't work without everyone's participation; come on and participate!
>
>Valete,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
>service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
><a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>

Subject:	Re: Thank you was Explanations
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:03:00 EST

In a message dated 11/4/98 10:48:44 PM Central Standard Time,
C--------us622@-------- writes:

<< , (except
for Citizenship, which we've never refused anyone) >>

Ah! That explains why I was accepted.......

Secunda Floria Zonara

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:08:37 PST

>I suspect that neither Christians, Jews, nor Moslems can honorably pay
>worship or homage to the ancient gods/goddesses. Their religions pretty
>much forbid it. Nova Roma must decide if we really want to be crippled
>from the start by restricting our leadership/public servants to a small
>group of people who choose to try to imitate a long-dead religious
>tradition.

Speak for yourself. I'm not "imitating" anything, and to me there's
nothing "long dead" about the religion I believe in.

Subject:	Re: Completely lost!! Almost literally!!
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:10:47 PST

>So all I want to know is, I guess, is that Roman Paganism still has
it's
>place here. If it doesn't, where do *I* go?
>
>
>Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)

The day that Nova Roma no longer concerns itself with restoration of the
worship of the gods, is the day I no longer have anything to do with it.

I'm just not certain so much religious weight should be placed upon our
secular authorities.

--M. Gladius Saevus

Subject:	Constitution, Explanations, Germanicus
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:13:06 -0500 (EST)

Salvete! I have remained silent publically on this debate up until now
though I have participated in and listened to many of the the private
debates over this issue. I have have frankly been torn over this issue
and the arguments many have made reflect much of what I have been
thinking.

The magistrate positions of Nova Roma and the Senate are all posts of
a *semi*-religious nature. There is no escaping that, and frankly, the
positions were designed to be such. Why? Because these, but especially
the Senate more so than even than the pontiffs, are the defenders of
the Religio Romana. Nova Roma has a state religion, and as such the
magistrates of the state are a part of the state religion. They do not
have to *believe* in the Gods of Rome but they must on occasion
participate in the rites of the Religio Romana (for example, Senators
always offered sacrifice at the Altar of Victory before debate or
discussion). They must not act against the Religio and they must defend
it against any attempt to undermine it or supplant it with another
religion. Like the ancients we are not so concerned with what you
believe as how you act. Call that pagan paranoia perhaps but it
cannot be helped. We want to ensure that the Religio Romana stays
at the core of Nova Roma.

However, Nova Roma has grown much beyond the initial mission of
reviving the Religio Romana, that cannot be denied, and we hope that
there is room for all within Nova Roma. When Nova Roma was founded, there
was much discussion that magistrates, and especially Senators, be
believing practitioners of the Religio Romana. We realized that that was
too limiting but at the same time wanted to ensure that those in power
would not act against the State Religion. That was when the idea of an
oath of office was brought up. The oath does not stress belief, it
stresses
action. "To do honor" is a public act, not an act of private belief.
However, if someone cannot in good conscience do the public act, the
"pinch of incense," that Germanicus did say he was willing to perform,
then they could not carry out the duties of a magistrate or hold the
rank of senator.

That being said, in the case of Germanicus, I think there is no
religious objection to his being appointed to the Senate because he has
no problem with publically honoring the Gods of Rome in his actions as a
Senator. However, many people have raised the objection to me of such
quick reinstatement on other grounds, namely that he left abruptly,
returned as abruptly and how long will he stay this time? It is a
reasonable question and many have suggested a probationary period of
anywhere from a few months to a year. After he has been back a certain
length of time as a citizen, then he would be reinstated as Senator. I
think that a year is too long and that perhaps something between 3-6
months is reasonable. I agree that such a waiting period would allay any
fears that people have that any appointment is being done in haste and
favoritism and it would lessen fears that he will not be with us for the
long term but even so I am not sure how to act on this matter. Germanicus
would be a useful voice in the Senate but that would also be the case
after a probationary period also.

We the Censors along with the advice of the Senate will continue to debate
the issue among ourselves while listening to everyone's input and come to
a decision for what we think is best for our fledgling Republic of New
Rome.



Valete!


Decius Iunius Palladius


Candidate for Consul, Censor, Senator, Pontiff


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Domus Aurea
From:	Fabio Incutti incutti@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:20:51 +0100

Salvete,
think someone will be interested in this.
A new discover has been made during the exploration of Neron's Domus Aurea.
A huge theater has been discovered, having octagonal shape, impluvium, rotating floor, artificial light, and every kind of grandeur.
If and when drawings of the place will be published, I will post to anyone interested.

Primus Fabius

Subject:	Re: Domus Aurea
From:	m--------oon@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 14:30:28 -0500

Fabio Incutti wrote:

> Fro--------abio Incutti incutti@--------
>
> Salvete,
> think someone will be interested in this.
> A new discover has been made during the exploration of Neron's Domus Aurea.
> A huge theater has been discovered, having octagonal shape, impluvium, rotating floor, artificial light, and every kind of grandeur.
> If and when drawings of the place will be published, I will post to anyone interested.
>
> Primus Fabius

Thank you, Fabius! I think we'll ALL be interested. This is a fascinating discovery, please keep us informed.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Domus Aurea
From:	Claudia Aprica quinta_claudia_lucentia_aprica@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:44:42 -0800 (PST)

Fabius,
Wow! I _am_ interested in the Domus Aurea discoveries. Some very
interesting stuff is being brought up there (remember the
wall-painting of a city a while back?).
Please do post anything more you hear!
Tibi gratias ago,
Aprica.





==
**********************************************************************
Drop in on my gens - <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133</a>
**********************************************************************

Subject:	Attn: Campaign of Antonius Gryllus Graecus for the office of Tribune of the Plebs
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:53:01 -0000

[This message contained attachments]

Subject:	Political parties in Rome...
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:00:29 -0000

Salvete omnes!

The discussion about Reunion gave me an idea...

Couldn't we restore the Popular and Senatorial parties that existed during the Republic? I wish I could be a member of the Popular Party! =)

Valete!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)

Subject:	Political parties in Rome...
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:01:24 -0000

Salvete omnes!

The discussion about Reunion gave me an idea...

Couldn't we restore the Popular and Senatorial parties that existed during the Republic? I wish I could be a member of the Popular Party! =)

Valete!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)

Subject:	Attn: Campaign of Antonius Gryllus Graecus for the office of Tribune of the Plebs
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:08:57 -0000

Vote Antonius Gryllus Graecus, the face of a Roman, the face of the people!
Vote Antonius Gryllus Graecus for the office of Tribune of the Plebs!

"I'll show my face for the people!" - Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Picture Attachments:

Subject:	Re: Political parties in Rome...
From:	JoeBloch@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:06:28 EST

In a message dated 98-11-05 16:02:58 EST, you write:

> Couldn't we restore the Popular and Senatorial parties that existed during
> the Republic? I wish I could be a member of the Popular Party! =)
>

Yeah, but why would we want to? Or don't you think we argue enough? ; )

Germanicus

Subject:	Attn: Campaign of Antonius Gryllus Graecus for the office of Tribune of the Plebs
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:11:17 -0000

[This message contained attachments]

Subject:	Re: Legislating religion was Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:10:11 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 16:46:45 EST, you write:

<< Hmmm. Maybe this should happen again. Arm yourselves, pagans, and take back
the
Vatican Hill from the Infidels! Reclaim the cathedrals built on the ruins of
pagan temples. Sacrifice to Jupiter and Juno in the Pantheon -- and later, in
your jail cells. >>

I can support that! In fact...when I do get myself to Italy...it's on my list
of things to do! Stand back John Paul...Dexippus is coming...and he's pissed!
: )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Call for re-affirmation (long and impolite)
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:17:59 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 17:50:57 EST, you write:

<< Of course I am going to be verbally raked over the coals, then thrown from
the virtual Tarpeian rock, for all this >>

I agree with you Merullus. However I don't support amending the constitution
to solve this problem. For me...there is no problem. If one can not fulfill
the position with the requirements thus stated, then don't desire to be in
that position...plain and simple.

I am now left asking myself, what is the face of Nova Roma? What is it that I
pledged citizenship to? It may not be the same organization it was when I
first logged onto <a href="http://www.novaroma.org" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org</a> and spoke to Germanicus about the
goals and dreams of the organization.

As the splash page once said:

"Because Rome stands as the bedrock of western culture...
Because Roman Virtues are more important than Family Values...
Because the Ancient Gods are calling..."

<<emphasis on the last sentence>>

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Attn: Campaign of Antonius Gryllus Graecus
From:	JoeBloch@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:19:36 EST

Heehehehehehe!

You're having too much fun with this campaign _not_ to win!

Germanicus

Subject:	Re: Legislating religion was Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:13:20 -0500

Dexippus@-------- wrote:

> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-11-04 16:46:45 EST, you write:
>
> << Hmmm. Maybe this should happen again. Arm yourselves, pagans, and take back
> the
> Vatican Hill from the Infidels! Reclaim the cathedrals built on the ruins of
> pagan temples. Sacrifice to Jupiter and Juno in the Pantheon -- and later, in
> your jail cells. >>
>
> I can support that! In fact...when I do get myself to Italy...it's on my list
> of things to do! Stand back John Paul...Dexippus is coming...and he's pissed!
> : )

Drop a house on his sister, honey. Make him give up that big ol' tacky ring, too!
We can sell it to Elizabeth Taylor or Elton John and fill the Treasury.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Dexippus multum scit
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:27:05 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 18:20:36 EST, you write:

<< As soon as the Senate resolves its most immediate concerns, I think that it
should consider deifying Dexippus for this clearly divine revelation. >>

<<The proposal to deify Dexippus was made in jest.>>

Well...you're not the first man to call me a God! ha ha ha

--Dexippus
High Priest of Fashion Extraordinairre
Divus Maximus
oh...and did I mention....GOD?!? <<ha ha>>

Subject:	Re: Dexippus multum scit
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:29:09 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 18:35:44 EST, you write:

<< To deify someone..dont they have to be deceased? >>

That might depend on who you ask...I have been termed "Undead" by some of my
goth friends...does that count?

--Dexippus
<<Oh Please! Oh Please! Make me a God! I'll eat Ambrosia!>>

Subject:	Re: Asatrur
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:34:17 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 18:58:49 EST, you write:

<< It's Phoenician. Masculine of the Goddess Astarte I believe. >>

I thought it as Germanic-Nordic...ya know...follower of Odin.

Hey Venator...clarify this will ya!?!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:33:32 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 18:51:09 EST, you write:

<< No..I dont see a contradiction. at all..I dont have a problem respecting
the beliefs of the State, or of other private individuals. >>

Sulla...I don't mean to play Devil's Advocate here because I do like
you...but...

Isn't there something in the literature that says that magistrates must (in
the least) perform the daily lararium rites?

Can someone confirm that for me?

--Dexippus

Subject:	Childlike facination -- was -- Attn: Campaign of Antonius Gryllus Graecus for the office of Tribune of the Plebs
From:	amethystcrystallight@--------)
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:38:56 -0600

tehehehe....it's just like television (this is a good thing???)!!!!

On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:08:57 -0000 "Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
writes:
>Vote Antonius Gryllus Graecus, the face of a Roman, the face of the
>people!
>Vote Antonius Gryllus Graecus for the office of Tribune of the Plebs!
>
>"I'll show my face for the people!" - Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>Picture Attachments:
>

Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
amethystcrystallight@--------
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>

___________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: Dexippus multum scit
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:35:30 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 19:16:55 EST, you write:

<< But this discussion is irrelevant...our Dex is already divine! (Just
check those golden "do me NOW!" pumps...)
>>

UUUGHHH! You've been threw my wardrobe? Gotta remember to lock that door!

--Dexippus
<The Divine Divus Maximus>

Subject:	Re: religious wars
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:47:18 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 19:37:49 EST, you write:

<< If Nova Roma had been a strictly Pagan organization with no other
beliefs allowed, there STILL would be conflict between...say, the Pagans
and the Wiccans and the Asatru. >>

I can only speak for myself. My personal spiritual practice has its
foundation in Wicca. In so much as when I worship, I cast a circle, call
quarters, bless salt and water...the whole shabang. The Deities I relate to
as God and Goddess are Roman.

In the Declaration of Roman Paganism, Nova Roma defines a Roman Pagan as
anyone who worships the Ancient Gods and Goddesses of Rome in either the
reconstructed practice of the Religio Romana or in a modern form (I take this
as being "Wiccan-ish").

Perhaps it is because my Deities are Roman that I have no problem performing
strictly Religio rites when need be. But I personally hold to the belief that
ALL GODS ARE ONE GOD AND ALL GODDESSES ARE ONE GODDESS. This is not
monotheism...what is meant by this statement is that underlying all the
manifestations of God or Goddess is an ultimate source of "power". I call
this Divinity. So whether Divinity chooses to manifest itself as Jupiter,
Venus, Diana, Odin, Hecate, Aman-Ra, Yahweh, Ganesha, or whatever...it's still
coming from the same source. However...this is not to say that each archetype
isn't distinct and individual. They each have their own personal likes,
dislikes, etc. The power comes from the same source, but the energy revealed
by the archetypes is different (and this is what we connect to depending upon
our needs and wants).

This personal belief of mine has allowed me to take part in Celtic rituals,
Greek rituals, Native American rituals, and Santeria rituals without feeling a
betrayal against my own Patrons and Matrons. In the end...it's ultimately
Divinity that is being worshiped and not just the archetype.

Now...if others who follow a different path can do the same thing when it
comes to their participation in public office of Nova Roma and in honoring and
worshiping the Gods of our Religio, then I am fine with that. But if it's
going to cause stress on them and a failure to honor the Gods and Goddesses
who Nova Roma has sworn allegiance to, then please forgoe the position...for
your own spiritual ease and for that of Nova Roma.

I don't think we are in a religious war...we're just trying to iron this all
out.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: religious wars
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:48:38 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 20:16:17 EST, you write:

<< A solution. Hmmm. Well, we do have pontiffs, and in the absense of
anyone as yet being chosen Pontificus Maximus they have the final
authority on any religious question, discussion, debate, ritualistic
expression, etc. They have the final say with anything that would affect
the Religio Romana. Maybe at this point we should let them confer and
hopefully concur on religious expressions included as part of the duties
of each and every magistrate and end any petty bickering before it
really begins. >>

Great...there goes another 6-12 months waiting! Sorry Pontiffs...just pulling
y'all legs! ha ha ha

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:55:16 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 22:19:34 EST, you write:

<< what is the
value of forced worship? What kind of a gift is a coerced gift? It's
not a gift at all. >>

I don't think anyone is forcing worship here. If you can't do it...hey,
that's ok...but then the office isn't available to hold.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:58:15 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 22:27:03 EST, you write:

<< Don't we pass up a tremendous amount of talent this way?

We're setting ourselves up for a theocracy here. Is that what we want?
If so, I'll support it (after all, it's *my* religion in charge for a
change!), but I think you want to think before you do. (That was a
collective "you") >>

"Collective You" understood : )

I think in order to be true to the historic practices of Rome, we need to
maintain the practice as it is outlined in the constitution.

I don't think we alienate any talent. Everyone has been most helpful in
offering their knowledge and ideas. Let's not assume that unless one is
holding office that they won't be heard or listened to.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:53:02 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 21:52:33 EST, you write:

<< I wasn't going to get into this one, but, if I'm quoted (or
paraphrased)... >>

Venator...I didn't mean to draw you in...but welcome to the discussion! : )

<<After due consideration and in consultation with the Oracle at Delphi
(which some of my Celtic ancestors visited a time or two long, long
ago), Ullr and Athene, I have come to the conclusion that the Olympians
are cousins of the Northern Holy Ones, within the larger Indo-European
Family.

>From the meaning put forth by the informed commentators on this list,
the message board and in the Taverna, I could Publically and in good
Faith give Honor to the Religio and the Olympians and not compromise my
personal Religious Practice and Faith. >>


And that's great! See my last post on my personal belief in the relationship
of the Gods. You may not subscribe to the exact same belief as I do...but you
have found that honoring and worshipping in the Religio is not detrimental to
your own spiritual pursuit or antagonistic to the Asatru.


<<I have stated before that I shall support the Religio, as the Official
State Religion. We are trying to Re-Create Rome of the Republican-Pagan
period. So, I see no need to change the wording of the Constitution.
If a person thinks they can be a good Citizen in the 90% of Roman life
which is areligious, but can not give the Honor due to the Patron
Deities of Rome, then -unfortunately- this does and should, disbar them
from any office which calls for such Honoring.>>

Absolutely!

<<There should be no religious bar to Citizenship. Our beloved Rome was a
Cosmopolitan culture; the Crossroads of the known world. Nova Rome
should be the same>>

Once again...I concur.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Explanations
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:01:07 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 23:09:49 EST, you write:

<< Magistrates are NOT required to
be active within Religio Romana. However, being respectful of the Religio
Romana is.
>>

Again I call for confirmation. I do remember seeing someone in the literature
that magistrates must in the least perform the daily lararium rites.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Thank you was Explanations
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:09:46 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 23:48:42 EST, you write:

<< I would agree with you, Flavia, if this were a purely religious post.
However,
the Senate is a Civil body rather than a religious one. >>

Again...not sure on this...asking for confirmation. It would seem to me that
as the ancient Romans did not seperate their state from their religion, why
are we now trying to do the same?

I seem to be reminded of an earlier event when I had requested to begin a
Collegium of Wicca and was hurled blats of opposition. I did let it go having
fully understood that the Nova Roma model is to be based solely upon the
Ancient one. If this is no longer the case then I renew my request to begin a
Collegium of Wicca and would ask that others do the same for a Collegium of
Asatruar, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and other "foreign" faiths.

<<Obviously, Germanicus' reasons for leaving Nova Roma were completely
unique...
certainly he did not leave us on a whim,>>

Hold on Cassius, I think by Germanicus' own statement that it was on a whim.
Which I think he then stated he regretted.

<<Germanicus and I worked for over three years setting up the
foundations for Nova Roma. Hundreds of hours of research and planning. When
the project was finally put into motion, Germanicus put forth a truly
Herculean effort to see that Nova Roma would succeed. He's invested literally
hundreds of dollars into Nova Roma directly, spent yet another few hundred
hours designing the website and writing the Constitution, and done everything
possible to ensure Nova Roma's survival>>

Agreed...but then why relinquish it so easily and in such haste? Again..this
doesn't fortify my faith.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Completely lost!! Almost literally!!
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:14:27 EST

In a message dated 98-11-05 00:46:23 EST, you write:

<< Nova Roma *is* and still *will be* about and for Roman Pagans, right? >>

That is unclear at this time.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:13:21 EST

In a message dated 98-11-04 23:50:24 EST, you write:

<< Nova Roma must decide if we really want to be crippled
from the start by restricting our leadership/public servants to a small
group of people who choose to try to imitate a long-dead religious
tradition. >>


Ok...now I have taken offense to this.

And now I ask the Founders to clarify for me. When I became a citizen of Nova
Roma it was after having understood that this was a Pagan organization
dedicated to the restoration of Ancient Roman Religion and Culture. This was
not just a D&D role playing game...this was not just a Roman SCA...this was
not just a Classics Interest Group.

If this organization is not a Pagan led community than I ask the Founders to
please re-state our mission and intent. I, and others, may wish to reconsider
involvement at this time.

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus

Subject:	Re: New cult for NR!
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:23:11 EST

In a message dated 98-11-05 12:45:05 EST, you write:

<< A new foreign cult has been proposed for Nova Roma: that of the
mysteries of Cornholio. >>

Sounds like we've had that here from the start.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	"L.Cornelius Sulla" Alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:32:13 -0800

No..not that i have seen..in the Constitution..I have all 9 pages of it
here.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dexippus@-------- Dexippus@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 2:28 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Constitution/Explanations


>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In a message dated 98-11-04 18:51:09 EST, you write:
>
><< No..I dont see a contradiction. at all..I dont have a problem
respecting
> the beliefs of the State, or of other private individuals. >>
>
>Sulla...I don't mean to play Devil's Advocate here because I do like
>you...but...
>
>Isn't there something in the literature that says that magistrates must (in
>the least) perform the daily lararium rites?
>
>Can someone confirm that for me?
>
>--Dexippus
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>

Subject:	Re: Elections
From:	FJGA@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:40:21 EST

Antonius I do believe you need to get your head examined. I chose to be a
Plebian and represnt their interest in NovaRoma when their were only 3
existing Patrician Gens. So please spare everyone the nonsense and attempt to
stand on a platform that is not based in science fiction.

Metellus

Subject:	Re: Thank you was Explanations
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:59:26 -0500

>
> <<Germanicus and I worked for over three years setting up the
> foundations for Nova Roma. Hundreds of hours of research and planning. When
> the project was finally put into motion, Germanicus put forth a truly
> Herculean effort to see that Nova Roma would succeed. He's invested literally
> hundreds of dollars into Nova Roma directly, spent yet another few hundred
> hours designing the website and writing the Constitution, and done everything
> possible to ensure Nova Roma's survival>>
>

(WARNING! THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE READ BY THE
SATIRE-IMPAIRED. SERIOUS INJURY COULD RESULT. I AM A PROFESSIONAL --
DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.)
This really does have historical precident from Ancient Rome! Money
equals Public Office! Just like in the old days! Now, if I tot up how
much time & money I've spent on NR, do I get an automatic appointment to
the Senate? (I thought I was doing it for love, but now I see that I was
incredibly naive.) I mean, it wouldn't be nearly as much as Germanicus
and Cassius have spent, but still...I should at least be a couple of
rungs up on the Cursus Honorum, maybe a junior Senator.

And they say big campaign money is a new idea. Pish tush.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	"L.Cornelius Sulla" Alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:05:07 -0800

As I understood NR..we are a Micronation...as a political body it is more
THAN just the religion..according to our Mission...we have real intentions
of forming an Nation.

That seems more than Religious to me.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis
-----Original Message-----
From: Dexippus@-------- Dexippus@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 3:02 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Constitution/Explanations


>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In a message dated 98-11-04 23:50:24 EST, you write:
>
><< Nova Roma must decide if we really want to be crippled
> from the start by restricting our leadership/public servants to a small
> group of people who choose to try to imitate a long-dead religious
> tradition. >>
>
>
>Ok...now I have taken offense to this.
>
>And now I ask the Founders to clarify for me. When I became a citizen of
Nova
>Roma it was after having understood that this was a Pagan organization
>dedicated to the restoration of Ancient Roman Religion and Culture. This
was
>not just a D&D role playing game...this was not just a Roman SCA...this was
>not just a Classics Interest Group.
>
>If this organization is not a Pagan led community than I ask the Founders
to
>please re-state our mission and intent. I, and others, may wish to
reconsider
>involvement at this time.
>
>--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject:	Political Discussion
From:	"L.Cornelius Sulla" Alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:14:22 -0800

I have seen this Religious discussion go on and on..and I have posed this question to some Citizens..now I am going to post it to everyone. Is NR more important than the relgion or is the Religion more important than the State. Becuase as I see it..the State is more important than the religion...That is not saying that the religion is not important..or that I am trivilizing the issue...I am not. BUT, as a political scientist, this can create a major shift in the emphasis of our "microNation." WE are an Nation. and the development of Nations forced religious issues in the back drop...becuase Religion serves as a divesive instead of a Cohesive force when it comes to the State. Religion has been used as a tool of the State since Ancient times...not the other way around.

Now, I expect alot of response to this..and let me state my personal opinion. I believe that the State is more important than the religion. I believe that the religion will survive, as it has up to this point. But, the State needs nurturing and support from all elements of society. That is my PRIMARY concern..is the growth and development of the State. As a citizen, who supports the Goals of Nova Roma. I am offering my services to the State to accomplish its goals...Political, Social and Religious. I have my own beliefs and some of them differ from the Majority, and that is perfectly fine....that is life in a Republic.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

Subject:	Re: Political Discussion
From:	dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:45:08 -0600 (CST)

Which is more important- the state or religion you ask??? Well to
be blunt I believe they're equally important within Nova Roma and cannot
be seperated without disintegrating the organization itself as we know
it. In ancient Rome there was no seperation of so-called church and
state philosophy nor should there be any here.
I view Nova Roma as a pagan organization that wanted revivalism of
its beliefs in the modern world while giving open avenues to people of
other beliefs cultural and other classical learning opportunities,--- a
sort of resourse center for people to learn and study and a foundation
for reenactment groups, etc. All the varied peoples that come to Nova
Roma for one reason or another who apply for citizenship strengthen this
micronational state through the exchange of information, participation,
possibly future revenues through products or event fees, etc. All the
people involved for one reason or another strengthen he Religio Romana
in a highly organized structure while yet benefitting from interests in
the classics, reenactment, etc. Again that is just my view and I
ASS-U-ME that was also at the forefront of thought when Nova Roma was
founded- could I be wrong?
This is why I think it is very important, putting the voting issues
aside for a moment that we use Nova Roma as a central base and yet also
have that guild concept where everyone can be happy in their own corner
of Nova Roma in their own circles yet still interact as one whole unit-
governmentally, socially, in community, etc.etc.
There may not be any seperation of church and state as a whole but we
should all be able to work through this and each find within Nova Roma
exactly what we were looking for when we became citizens. Many of us
might just find some interests we didn't have before using the
guilds/collegiums idea. Yes --- I would like some feedback on this too.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Re: triremes
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:32:32 EST

>>In a message dated 11/4/98 2:20:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
legion6@-------- write--------r>
Anyone out there care to start a thread on ancient Roman
triremes...

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul<<

The Consul commands.
The Roman Navy, according to Livy, got its start in 311 BC (439
AUC). Ten triremes were either built or leased in Campania for
the use of pirate control. While on patrol, the commander,
Publius Cornelius, landed at Pompeii, for supplies. (Fleets had
enough provisions to stay at sea for three days.) While this was
carried out, some bright individual (Livy says not) came up with
the idea to raid the Grecian countryside for loot. Finding easy
pickings, they, now no better than the pirates they were
supposed to suppress, entered into Oscan territory. Since Rome
was at war with the Samnites, this brought forth a response from
an enemy levy.

The Roman freebooters fell back towards the fleet, but as they did
so they ran into a hastily raised Greek levy which killed many of them,
before they could regain the safety of the fleet. Not an
very auspicious beginning to the Roman navy.

The ten triremes continued on, year after year, doing their best
to suppress piracy, when in 291, the squadron invaded the
territorial waters of Taranto. The Greeks defended their
territory with their own small fleet. The resulting clash routed
the Romans. The Senate was so shaken, that they passed a
resolution that scrapped the navy, and requested that the Greeks
on the Central Italian coast take up the cause of anti-piracy, whose cost
the cost of which the Romans subsidized (probably with tribute).

The last appearance of the trireme in the early Republican Navy
was the 10 ships that were built during the large construction
program of 260. These would see action in a reserve role, at the
battle of Ecnomus. They are not mentioned in the battles of Cape
Hermaeum, or the Agates Isles. Because they were too small to
deploy the corvus, they had fallen out of favor, replaced by the
Quinquireme, a larger battle platform.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
Roman military historian. 

Subject:	Re: Political Discussion
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:36:00 EST

Salvete.

I feel a little silly posting a "me too" message to the list... but this
posting was right on target in my opinion. Bravo! :)

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus



In a message dated 11/5/98 6:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dean6886@-------- --------es:

<<
Which is more important- the state or religion you ask??? Well to
be blunt I believe they're equally important within Nova Roma and cannot
be seperated without disintegrating the organization itself as we know
it. In ancient Rome there was no seperation of so-called church and
state philosophy nor should there be any here.
I view Nova Roma as a pagan organization that wanted revivalism of
its beliefs in the modern world while giving open avenues to people of
other beliefs cultural and other classical learning opportunities,--- a
sort of resourse center for people to learn and study and a foundation
for reenactment groups, etc. All the varied peoples that come to Nova
Roma for one reason or another who apply for citizenship strengthen this
micronational state through the exchange of information, participation,
possibly future revenues through products or event fees, etc. All the
people involved for one reason or another strengthen he Religio Romana
in a highly organized structure while yet benefitting from interests in
the classics, reenactment, etc. Again that is just my view and I
ASS-U-ME that was also at the forefront of thought when Nova Roma was
founded- could I be wrong?
This is why I think it is very important, putting the voting issues
aside for a moment that we use Nova Roma as a central base and yet also
have that guild concept where everyone can be happy in their own corner
of Nova Roma in their own circles yet still interact as one whole unit-
governmentally, socially, in community, etc.etc.
There may not be any seperation of church and state as a whole but we
should all be able to work through this and each find within Nova Roma
exactly what we were looking for when we became citizens. Many of us
might just find some interests we didn't have before using the
guilds/collegiums idea. Yes --- I would like some feedback on this too.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>>

Subject:	Re: Constitution, Explanations, Germanicus
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:49:10 EST

>That being said, in the case of Germanicus, I think there is no
>religious objection to his being appointed to the Senate because he has
>no problem with publically honoring the Gods of Rome in his actions as a
>Senator. However, many people have raised the objection to me of such
>quick reinstatement on other grounds, namely that he left abruptly,
>returned as abruptly and how long will he stay this time? It is a
>reasonable question and many have suggested a probationary period of
>anywhere from a few months to a year. After he has been back a certain
>length of time as a citizen, then he would be reinstated as Senator. I
>think that a year is too long and that perhaps something between 3-6
>months is reasonable. I agree that such a waiting period would allay any
>fears that people have that any appointment is being done in haste and
>favoritism and it would lessen fears that he will not be with us for the
>long term but even so I am not sure how to act on this matter. Germanicus
>would be a useful voice in the Senate but that would also be the case
>after a probationary period also.
>
>We the Censors along with the advice of the Senate will continue to debate
>the issue among ourselves while listening to everyone's input and come to
>a decision for what we think is best for our fledgling Republic of New
>Rome.
>
>
>
>Valete!
>
>
>Decius Iunius Palladius

Salve, Decius Iunius.

My own opinion is that Germanicus' explanation for his sudden departure
was fully satisfactory, and that the interests of Nova Roma would best be
served by accepting him back in the Senate without any such probationary
period.

Profound religious experiences occur rarely in anyone's life, and can be
difficult to understand and to quickly assimilate into one's life. A
little confusion, perhaps some hasty decisions, are understandable under
the circumstances. It doesn't imply that Germanicus has somehow become
"unstable" or unreliable. Indeed, it suggests just the opposite.

At the same time, I think Nova Roma needs his services and his insights
now more than ever. There is a lot going on, a lot of conflict of
opinions and goals, a lot of changes, I think it would be a disservice
to the Res Publica to exile him, even temporarily, from participation in
the deliberations of the Senate.

L. Sergius Australicus

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:49:02 EST

>From: "Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
>
>
>>I suspect that neither Christians, Jews, nor Moslems can honorably pay
>>worship or homage to the ancient gods/goddesses. Their religions pretty
>>much forbid it. Nova Roma must decide if we really want to be crippled
>>from the start by restricting our leadership/public servants to a small
>>group of people who choose to try to imitate a long-dead religious
>>tradition.
>
>Speak for yourself. I'm not "imitating" anything, and to me there's
>nothing "long dead" about the religion I believe in.
Well, (1) that was intended as a value-free description and not as an
insult to anyone, and (2) it was actually inaccurate to the extent that
none of us CAN "imitate" the Religio Romana because we have only tidbits
and fragments of information about it -- we don't have enough information
to enable us to imitate it.

I actually have no idea what religion you "believe in" but the Religio
Romana hasn't been actively practised for many centuries, which certainly
seems to make "long-dead" an accurate adjective. It also shouldn't be
offensive to anyone who isn't just looking to take offense. If the
sight/sound of the word "dead" being used in reference to something
important to you is threatening or unpleasant for you, then I apologize
for having made you uncomfortable.

Pax?

L. Sergius Aust.

post scriptum: Can we all try to sign these posts with our Roman names?
Many people's mail names don't match their Roman names and it's hard to
be sure, sometimes, to whom I'm responding. Gratii.



in ullam rem ne properemus.

Subject:	Re: Asatrur
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:02:23 -0800 (PST)

Salvete


I was informed, by an Asatru friend of mine, that it's like Odinism.
Is this right?

A. I. C Nocturnia


---JoeBloch@-------- wrote:
>
> From: JoeBloch@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-11-04 18:59:08 EST, you write:
>
> > << Asatrur? You got me
> > there. I am not familiar with that religion at all. If it is
> polytheistic,
> >
> > now you have a fighting chance. >>
> > Salve, Gaius Marius
> > It's Phoenician. Masculine of the Goddess Astarte I believe.
> > Vale
> > Q. Fabius
>
> Sorry, no. It's Norse. Asa meaning "Gods" and "tru" meaning
"trusting in".
> Asatru is the modern incarnation of the old Norse pagan religion.
Asatruar are
> people who follow Asatru.
>
> Germanicus
>
>
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>

Subject:	Re: Asatrur
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:16:19 EST

In a message dated 98-11-05 20:03:29 EST, you write:

> I was informed, by an Asatru friend of mine, that it's like Odinism.
> Is this right?

There are some important, yet subtle, differences between Odinism and Asatru.
But yes, in terms of public consumption they are very closely related. (Then
again, there is also Theod, Odianism-- not to be confused with Odinism--,
Vanatru, Skertu, etc. all cousins in the Germanic Pagan camp.) I must confess
I'm not completely familiar with Odinism to be able to render a complete
comparison.

Germanicus

Subject:	Re: Explanations
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:34:40 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites!

OK, what's going on???
Why on earth are we arguing about religion?
I thought that one of the places these petty arguments would not be is
here!!
Arguing over religion is one of the worst things we could do. Not only
does it tear us apart but it is upsetting to people to have their
beleifs refused.
This is NOt what Nova Roma is about.
As it says on the web site:


"Q: Do I have to be Pagan to join?

A: Absolutely not! Although about 60% of our Citizens are currently
pagans of one ilk or another, and the public "State" religion of Nova
Roma is the Religio Romana, we in no shape, matter, or form require
Citizens to practice Roman Paganism. The one exception to this is our
magistrates; because they are not only civil servants but also have
functions within the Religio Romana, we ask that they at least be
willing to fulfill those religious functions. We have absolutely no
interest in the private religious lives of any of our Citizens. All
that's required is a love of all things Roman. "


That last sentance sums it up!!

Does it matter what religion we are?
As long as we love Rome and continue to work for the good of Nova Roma.

I agree that the Constitution is a thing to be respected and not
changed at our very whim and fancy, but this is a serious need!!
How can someone fulfill a promise to a God that they don't believe in?
I know I wouldn't be able to fulfil that sort of a promise!

It would be good if the oaths of office were re-written I think.

I also think that we should stop all this petty argumentation, wars
have been fought over religious differences and we don't want to stir
any unhappy feelings whatsoever!

A. I. C Nocturnia



---Dexippus@-------- wrote:
>
> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-11-04 05:40:16 EST, you write:
>
> << I've just received more postings. The above statement is not
true, as
> Germanicus is willing to pay public honour to the Gods! So, I think
that all
> issues about the legitimacy of Germanicus application to the Senate
are
> nonsense from now on. >>
>
> Again...I hope I am not causing a rift here...but I think the issue
goes beyon
> just a religious one. The way I see it...do we so easily and so
quickly re-
> appoint a former magistrate who so recently and so quickly resigned
all
> positions (including citizenship). I think this goes beyond
Germanicus and
> includes future magistrates wo may do so as well.
>
> I just think that a "cooling" period need be in place. Perhaps
after the
> December elections or the middle of next year...who knows.
Again...I'm not
> advocating that Germanicus never be appointed to another Magistrate
position.
> Only that we need time to heal. Germanicus is very knowledgable in
Roman
> affairs and he could share his wisdom and knowledge as a consultant
for the
> time being. Why are we in a rush to re-appoint?
>
> And what's all this religious bashing going on? Frankly...I don't
care if
> someon is a Hare Krishna and wants to be in office in Nova Roma.
But I don't
> believe we should alter the constitution so that the said Hare
Krishna doesn't
> have to honor or pay due homage to the Gods of Rome. Nova Roma
(whether you
> like it or not...and whether Germanicus still adheres to it or not)
was
> founded upon the Religio Romana. To now back-peddle from this will
lead us
> down the path the original Roma once tread when the Gods were
ignored (IMHO).
>
> --Dexippus
>
>
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>

Subject:	Re: Asatrur
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:37:20 -0800 (PST)

Tibi gratias ago Germanici.

Actually I believe my friend is Odinist, not Asatru.
I asked him if he knew what Asatru was before you rejoijed and he said
it was like Odinism.

Noct'a



---JoeBloch@-------- wrote:
>
> From: JoeBloch@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-11-05 20:03:29 EST, you write:
>
> > I was informed, by an Asatru friend of mine, that it's like Odinism.
> > Is this right?
>
> There are some important, yet subtle, differences between Odinism
and Asatru.
> But yes, in terms of public consumption they are very closely
related. (Then
> again, there is also Theod, Odianism-- not to be confused with
Odinism--,
> Vanatru, Skertu, etc. all cousins in the Germanic Pagan camp.) I
must confess
> I'm not completely familiar with Odinism to be able to render a
complete
> comparison.
>
> Germanicus
>
>
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> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:52:27 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 11/5/98 8:06:07 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, LSergAust@--------
writes:

>>I suspect that neither Christians, Jews, nor Moslems can honorably pay
>>worship or homage to the ancient gods/goddesses. Their religions pretty
>>much forbid it. Nova Roma must decide if we really want to be crippled
>>from the start by restricting our leadership/public servants to a small
>>group of people who choose to try to imitate a long-dead religious
>>tradition.
>
>Speak for yourself. I'm not "imitating" anything, and to me there's
>nothing "long dead" about the religion I believe in.

> Well, (1) that was intended as a value-free description and not as an
insult to anyone, and

I'm personally glad that you didn't mean to insult anyone! This must have been
one of those posts that was written one way, but just got read another. Even
*I* took offence at this...

> (2) it was actually inaccurate to the extent that
none of us CAN "imitate" the Religio Romana because we have only tidbits
and fragments of information about it -- we don't have enough information
to enable us to imitate it.

In actuality, the Religio Romana is the most well documented ancient Western
Pagan relgion. These comments would have been dead on about Celtic religion,
for instance, where little or nothing was ever written... but there is plenty
of Roman evidence extant. Unless of course you've specifically sought to
research Roman Pagan Religion I can only believe you're making assumptions
based on general historical reading.

The household rites, which were the basis of personal religion within ancient
Rome, have survived basically intact. Daily rites are included on the website,
and as soon as time allows, a wealth of other religious information will be
appearing there.

I'll happily concede that not everything about ancient Religio Romana has not
survived, and there are even a few large gaps in modern knowledge. However,
there is certainly more than enough surviving material for a serious and
spiritually sound modern renewal of the Roman pagan religion.

> I actually have no idea what religion you "believe in" but the Religio
Romana hasn't been actively practised for many centuries, which certainly
seems to make "long-dead" an accurate adjective. It also shouldn't be
offensive to anyone who isn't just looking to take offense. If the
sight/sound of the word "dead" being used in reference to something
important to you is threatening or unpleasant for you, then I apologize
for having made you uncomfortable.

Actually, you're quite correct. Religio Romana itself HAS been dead! The
ancient rites have not been practiced for centuries, the ancient priests
themselves are long since ashes, and the ancient temples themselves have long
been ruins. However, the Roman Goddesses and Gods themselves have remained
very real and vital - and so has the human desire to seek them and restore
their influence in the world.

There are now people actively worshipping the ancient Gods, in as much the
ancient way as is possible. Because of that I must say this: "Religio Romana
was dead, yet now it lives again."

> Pax?

Absolutely! This religious debate is nothing that needs divide Nova Roma.
There has been, and will be a clear division between Public and Private
religion. Citizens are not required to believe in the Public Religio Romana,
and in fact may worship privately however they choose to, or not to.

The issue here has in fact been the role of Magistrates, not the Religio
Romana itself. Non- Roman pagans are perfectly welcome to be Magistrates, so
long as they agree not to try and harm the Religio Romana, and are willing to
be respectful during religious events. That's all there really is to the
issue, and all there ever was.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	m--------oon@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:54:26 -0500

LSergAust@-------- wrote:
>
> From: LSergAust@--------
>
> >From: "Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
> >
> >
> >>I suspect that neither Christians, Jews, nor Moslems can honorably pay
> >>worship or homage to the ancient gods/goddesses. Their religions pretty
> >>much forbid it. Nova Roma must decide if we really want to be crippled
> >>from the start by restricting our leadership/public servants to a small
> >>group of people who choose to try to imitate a long-dead religious
> >>tradition.
> >
> >Speak for yourself. I'm not "imitating" anything, and to me there's
> >nothing "long dead" about the religion I believe in.
> Well, (1) that was intended as a value-free description and not as an
> insult to anyone, and (2) it was actually inaccurate to the extent that
> none of us CAN "imitate" the Religio Romana because we have only tidbits
> and fragments of information about it -- we don't have enough information
> to enable us to imitate it.

While that might be true about many neo-pagan religions who claim
antiquity without the anthropological evidence to support it, it
certainly isn't true about Roman religion. We have plenty of
information, more than enough to continue its practice.Certainly as much
information as religions that have gone through many, many reforms and
have only a tenuous connection to their original roots.

We are not "imitating" anything. That implies fakery.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: triremes
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:59:38 EST

Salve,

Wow, that was fascinating! No, I'm not kidding... I hadn't read a word of this
before. Fancy the Romans being pirates themselves! Longus Johnius Silverus?
Blackbeardius? ;)

I do remember the story of Roman's replicating a navy from a Carthaginian ship
which they found washed on shore... what sort of ship was that? The first
Trireme, or something else?

Yeah, I'm just a sucker for historical stuff, and have a library which
concentrates a lot on cultural topics, but little on military and engineering
subjects!

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

In --------ss--------d-------- 11/5/98 7:39:12 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, SFP55@--------
writes:

<<
The Consul commands.
The Roman Navy, according to Livy, got its start in 311 BC (439
AUC). Ten triremes were either built or leased in Campania for
the use of pirate control. While on patrol, the commander,
Publius Cornelius, landed at Pompeii, for supplies. (Fleets had
enough provisions to stay at sea for three days.) While this was
carried out, some bright individual (Livy says not) came up with
the idea to raid the Grecian countryside for loot. Finding easy
pickings, they, now no better than the pirates they were
supposed to suppress, entered into Oscan territory. Since Rome
was at war with the Samnites, this brought forth a response from
an enemy levy.

The Roman freebooters fell back towards the fleet, but as they did
so they ran into a hastily raised Greek levy which killed many of them,
before they could regain the safety of the fleet. Not an
very auspicious beginning to the Roman navy.

The ten triremes continued on, year after year, doing their best
to suppress piracy, when in 291, the squadron invaded the
territorial waters of Taranto. The Greeks defended their
territory with their own small fleet. The resulting clash routed
the Romans. The Senate was so shaken, that they passed a
resolution that scrapped the navy, and requested that the Greeks
on the Central Italian coast take up the cause of anti-piracy, whose cost
the cost of which the Romans subsidized (probably with tribute).

The last appearance of the trireme in the early Republican Navy
was the 10 ships that were built during the large construction
program of 260. These would see action in a reserve role, at the
battle of Ecnomus. They are not mentioned in the battles of Cape
Hermaeum, or the Agates Isles. Because they were too small to
deploy the corvus, they had fallen out of favor, replaced by the
Quinquireme, a larger battle platform.
>>

Subject:	Images of Ischia di Castro (Viterbo)
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:08:06 EST

Salve Ohmes
Images (12) of Ischia di Castro are on Ivan Boni's site: "Archeologia
Italiana" <a href="http://www.archeologia.coma" target="_top" >http://www.archeologia.coma</a>
There is a description of the archaeological site of the city of Ischia di
Castro (Viterbo), with photos.
Thought you'd like to know.

Valete
Q. Fabius

Subject:	Re: Attn: Campaign of Antonius Gryllus Graecus for the office of Tribune of the Plebs
From:	m--------oon@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:08:00 -0500

Antonio Grilo wrote:
>
> Vote Antonius Gryllus Graecus, the face of a Roman, the face of the
> people!
> Vote Antonius Gryllus Graecus for the office of Tribune of the Plebs!
>
> "I'll show my face for the people!" - Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>
> Picture Attachments:

If I was a Plebian, I'd vote for this guy. You can't say he's not
putting everything he's got into the campaign!


-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Political Discussion
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:32:38 EST

Since this list is where we can most effectively debate issues, I think a
"me too" message is perfectly appropriate for lending support to the side
of the debate you choose to support. I agree also with Gaius Drusus'
posting.

L. Sergius Aust.

>From: C--------us622@--------
>
>Salvete.
>
>I feel a little silly posting a "me too" message to the list... but this
>posting was right on target in my opinion. Bravo! :)
>
>Vale,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Political Discussion
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:32:35 EST

Well stated, Lucius Cornelius. However, I think an essential feature of
the "Roman Way" is that religion was central in the life of the nation --
both public and private. And I think it important that we have it that
way in Nova Roma. I just don't think it desireable that we have a
draconian law to bind everyone to a _particular form of religious
practice_ as a requirement for full participation. That is where my
dissention mainly lies.

L. Sergius Aust.

>I have seen this Religious discussion go on and on..and I have posed this
>question to some Citizens..now I am going to post it to everyone. Is NR
>more important than the relgion or is the Religion more important than the
>State. Becuase as I see it..the State is more important than the
>religion...That is not saying that the religion is not important..or that
>I am trivilizing the issue...I am not. BUT, as a political scientist,
>this can create a major shift in the emphasis of our "microNation." WE
>are an Nation. and the development of Nations forced religious issues in
>the back drop...becuase Religion serves as a divesive instead of a
>Cohesive force when it comes to the State. Religion has been used as a
>tool of the State since Ancient times...not the other way around.
>
>Now, I expect alot of response to this..and let me state my personal
>opinion. I believe that the State is more important than the religion. I
>believe that the religion will survive, as it has up to this point. But,
>the State needs nurturing and support from all elements of society. That
>is my PRIMARY concern..is the growth and development of the State. As a
>citizen, who supports the Goals of Nova Roma. I am offering my services to
>the State to accomplish its goals...Political, Social and Religious. I
>have my own beliefs and some of them differ from the Majority, and that is
>perfectly fine....that is life in a Republic.
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
>Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:32:23 EST

It seems to me that the statement to which Dexippus refers is somewhere
in the Religio pages, referring to the least to be expected in a devout
Roman household. But that's just working from memory.

L. Sergius Aust.

>From: "L.Corn--------s Sulla" Al--------us@--------
>
>No..not that i have seen..in the Constitution..I have all 9 pages of it
>here.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dexippus@-------- Dexippus@--------
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 2:28 PM
>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Constitution/Explanations
>
>
>>From: Dexippus@--------
>>
>>In a message dated 98-11-04 18:51:09 EST, you write:
>>
>><< No..I dont see a contradiction. at all..I dont have a problem
>respecting
>> the beliefs of the State, or of other private individuals. >>
>>
>>Sulla...I don't mean to play Devil's Advocate here because I do like
>>you...but...
>>
>>Isn't there something in the literature that says that magistrates must (in
>>the least) perform the daily lararium rites?
>>
>>Can someone confirm that for me?
>>
>>--Dexippus


aut amat aut odit mulier: nihil est tertium.
Publilius Syrus

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:32:42 EST

>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In a message dated 98-11-04 23:50:24 EST, you write:
>
><< Nova Roma must decide if we really want to be crippled
> from the start by restricting our leadership/public servants to a small
> group of people who choose to try to imitate a long-dead religious
> tradition. >>
>
>
>Ok...now I have taken offense to this.

Hell's Bells! That's what makes it so hard to have a real discussion in
this group -- so many people just determined to react to how something is
said rather than to WHAT is said. Gods forbid that we should be able to
have any freedom of expression here.

Lucius Damianus Dexippus, that statement was not intended to offend
anyone, and if it was offensive to you, then I apologize for having
precipitated your discomfiture.

Lucius Sergius Australicus


aut amat aut odit mulier: nihil est tertium.
Publilius Syrus

Subject:	Re: triremes
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:32:13 EST

In a message dated 98-11-05 21:05:30 EST, you write:

<< I do remember the story of Roman's replicating a navy from a Carthaginian
ship which they found washed on shore... what sort of ship was that? The
first Trireme, or something else? >>
No the Greeks supplied plans for the first roman tries.

You are thinking about the light quinquereme caught around Lilybaeum.
for more about that and other things ancient naval, see my article "Mare
Nostrum"
at <a href="http://www.west.net/~howie/hmgs_news_reviews.html" target="_top" >http://www.west.net/~howie/hmgs_news_reviews.html</a>

Vale
Q. Fabius

Subject:	Hej Dex! was Re: Asatrur
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 19:27:02 -0800

Hej Dexippus;

Please see my post of veeeery early Thursday morning.

Blessings, Venator akak Ullrsson

Subject:	Re: Thank you was Explanations
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:32:29 EST

>From: m--------oon@--------
>
>>
>> <<Germanicus and I worked for over three years setting up the
>> foundations for Nova Roma. Hundreds of hours of research and planning. When
>> the project was finally put into motion, Germanicus put forth a truly
>> Herculean effort to see that Nova Roma would succeed. He's invested
literally
>> hundreds of dollars into Nova Roma directly, spent yet another few hundred
>> hours designing the website and writing the Constitution, and done
everything
>> possible to ensure Nova Roma's survival>>
>>
>
>(WARNING! THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE READ BY THE
>SATIRE-IMPAIRED. SERIOUS INJURY COULD RESULT. I AM A PROFESSIONAL --
>DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.)
>This really does have historical precident from Ancient Rome! Money
>equals Public Office! Just like in the old days! Now, if I tot up how
>much time & money I've spent on NR, do I get an automatic appointment to
>the Senate? (I thought I was doing it for love, but now I see that I was
>incredibly naive.) I mean, it wouldn't be nearly as much as Germanicus
>and Cassius have spent, but still...I should at least be a couple of
>rungs up on the Cursus Honorum, maybe a junior Senator.
>
>And they say big campaign money is a new idea. Pish tush.
>
>-- Flavia Claudia

Ah, Yes! You jogged my memory. In running down the list, I forgot that
important "historic Roman practice" of giving lavish bribes to voters! By
all means let's adhere to that one. Do we get to band together to set the
going rate, or do we just bargain individually with each candidate?

;-)

(All professional offense-takers, please note the smiley)

L. Sergius Aust.



certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:32:20 EST

>I think in order to be true to the historic practices of Rome, we need to
>maintain the practice as it is outlined in the constitution.

Come on now, Dex -- we are making little effort to be true to the
historic practices of Rome. If we were, none of the women here would dare
be intruding opinions into these discussions, the juveniles would be
slapped down when they presumed to offer advice to their elders, most of
our population would be slaves, and we would be killing our neighbors to
loot their temples and treasuries. And those are just a few of the
historic practices of Rome. Most of these historic practices are
prohibited explicitly by the Constitution of Nova Roma. Isn't it just a
little bit disingenuous to pretend that this one issue is the sine qua
non of our being Roman.

Following the logic of your own very cogent and meaningful exposition of
your religious ideas, what is essentially Roman is not the name and form
of address used for the Divine, but the recognition of the centrality of
the Divine in every aspect of the State, public and private. That is what
was the Roman way.

Nova Roma is not and should not and never will be an exact recreation of
Roma Antiqua! If we ever reach the point of having a large population,
the majority of citizens are unlikely to embrace the Religio Romana, for
a number of reasons that I'm sure you don't need spelled out for you. If
the Constitution is interpreted in a way to exclude people who are not
devout Religio Romana adherents from our governing bodies, Nova Roma will
be crippled and will never amount to much.

I am comfortable with a requirement that office holders must respect and
support the official State religion. I am not comfortable with a
requirement that they be active practioners of the official State
religion. And that is without any connection to my own religious views
(which I don't think I have discussed with anyone here). That is purely
out of concern for the best interests of Nova Roma.

L. Sergius Aust.


sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

Subject:	Cleopatras' City
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:37:55 -0800

Ave Omnes!

Anyone else catch the news blurp this morning on the archaeological
discoveries in the harbor at Alexandria? Know more about it?

Vale, Venator

Subject:	A Founder - A Senator
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:46:52 -0800

Salvete Omnes;

Nuff said.

Valete, Venator

Subject:	OT: Asatru, Odinism, Theodish... Info
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:54:45 -0800

Salvete Omnes!

If anyone is interested, I will answer questions via e-mail, to the best
of my understanding and belief. Let's get back to thongs Roman.

Valete, Venator

aka

Piparskegg Ullrsson, Ullrsgothi

Subject:	Re: OT: Asatru, Odinism, Theodish... Info
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:08:39 -0800

Salvete Omnes!

> Let's get back to thongs Roman.

Gads, the thick fingers I have sometimes, THINGS Roman.

I know Dex >({;{)

Valete, Venator

Subject:	Re: OT: Asatru, Odinism, Theodish... Info
From:	JoeBloch@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:08:22 EST

In a message dated 98-11-05 22:01:48 EST, you write:

> Let's get back to thongs Roman.

I, for one, would welcome a discussion about Roman undergarments. I understand
there are several mosaics of bikini-clad Roman girls practicing sports. I've
got the tunic and the toga, but what to wear underneath???

Well SOMEONE had to lighten the mood!

Germanicus

Subject:	Re: OT: Asatru, Odinism, Theodish... Info
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:34:51 -0800

Waes Hael et Salve!

JoeBloch@-------- wrote:
>
> From: JoeBloch@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-11-05 22:01:48 EST, you write:
>
> > Let's get back to thongs Roman.
>
> I, for one, would welcome a discussion about Roman undergarments. I understand
> there are several mosaics of bikini-clad Roman girls practicing sports. I've
> got the tunic and the toga, but what to wear underneath???
>
> Well SOMEONE had to lighten the mood!
>
> Germanicus
>
I expected Dex to be the first to jump on this typo >({;{)

Fara Med Godanum and Vale, Same as Always

Subject:	Re: OT: Asatru, Odinism, Theodish... Info
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:34:16 -0800 (PST)

Salvete!

Sorry couldn't resist replying to this one!!


The strophium is the Roman brassiere. It is a band of soft linen 6" to
8" wide (or a folded wider strip), long enough to go around the body
at least twice. It can be worn in several ways, for example placing
the center of the band at the back and crossing the ends in front to
support the breasts, then wrapping the ends around and tucking them in
again. Evidence is scarce, however, and pins or ties may have been used.

While the tunica often served as an undergarment, there are also
references to the supparum, subucula, and (for matrons) indusium,
which may all be slip-like garments, hanging from the waist. Dancing
girls are shown wearing "bikini briefs", and a pair of woman's panties
made of leather have been found, but it is not known if these were
common items of apparel.



LOL

Noct'a (I thank Marius Fimbria for this!!)

---JoeBloch@-------- wrote:
>
> From: JoeBloch@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-11-05 22:01:48 EST, you write:
>
> > Let's get back to thongs Roman.
>
> I, for one, would welcome a discussion about Roman undergarments. I
understand
> there are several mosaics of bikini-clad Roman girls practicing
sports. I've
> got the tunic and the toga, but what to wear underneath???
>
> Well SOMEONE had to lighten the mood!
>
> Germanicus
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>

Subject:	Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	"L.Cornelius Sulla" Alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:35:07 -0800

Oh..well I have only printed the Constitution..at most I gutted (a study
term) the Religio pages...never really read them detailed (YES I ADMIT I
have not read the Religio Pages).

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis


-----Original Message-----
From: LSergAust@-------- LSergAust@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 6:38 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Constitution/Explanations


>From: LSergAust@--------
>
>It seems to me that the statement to which Dexippus refers is somewhere
>in the Religio pages, referring to the least to be expected in a devout
>Roman household. But that's just working from memory.
>
>L. Sergius Aust.
>
>>From: "L.Corn--------s Sulla" Al--------us@--------
>>
>>No..not that i have seen..in the Constitution..I have all 9 pages of it
>>here.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Dexippus@-------- Dexippus@--------
>>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>>Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 2:28 PM
>>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Constitution/Explanations
>>
>>
>>>From: Dexippus@--------
>>>
>>>In a message dated 98-11-04 18:51:09 EST, you write:
>>>
>>><< No..I dont see a contradiction. at all..I dont have a problem
>>respecting
>>> the beliefs of the State, or of other private individuals. >>
>>>
>>>Sulla...I don't mean to play Devil's Advocate here because I do like
>>>you...but...
>>>
>>>Isn't there something in the literature that says that magistrates must
(in
>>>the least) perform the daily lararium rites?
>>>
>>>Can someone confirm that for me?
>>>
>>>--Dexippus
>
>
>aut amat aut odit mulier: nihil est tertium.
> Publilius Syrus
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
>service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
><a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>

Subject:	Re: Political parties in Rome...
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:53:56 EST

In a message dated 98-11-05 16:11:34 EST, you write:

<< Or don't you think we argue enough? ; ) >>

But that's the Roman tradition! Argue we must for a better Rome! : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Legislating religion was Re: Constitution/Explanations
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:56:05 EST

In a message dated 98-11-05 16:30:23 EST, you write:

<< Drop a house on his sister, honey. Make him give up that big ol' tacky
ring, too!
We can sell it to Elizabeth Taylor or Elton John and fill the Treasury. >>

Screw his sister! <<snap>> What's HE gonna look like with a chimney on him?

The ring is mine! I claim it for Nova Roma! I fight Liz and Elton tooth and
nail for it!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: The rewards of voting
From:	"L.Cornelius Sulla" Alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:05:05 -0800

Why should we bribe when most of us..execpt for the Tribs of the Plebs are
running unopposed...there is no reason to Bribe the Masses!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis
-----Original Message-----
From: m--------oon@-------- m--------oon@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 9:05 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: The rewards of voting


>From: m--------oon@--------
>
>LSergAust@-------- wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ah, Yes! You jogged my memory. In running down the list, I forgot that
>> important "historic Roman practice" of giving lavish bribes to voters! By
>> all means let's adhere to that one. Do we get to band together to set the
>> going rate, or do we just bargain individually with each candidate?
>
>No, I think collective bargaining is definitely the way to go. Let's
>call in the Teamsters to represent us poor oppressed voters! So far, I
>haven't gotten as much as a tacky bumper sticker from this crop of cheap
>candidates. No question that they're all qualified and I'd be glad to
>have any of them represent Nova Roma -- BUT let's see some trinkets for
>us voters!
>
>Bribe early and bribe often!
>>
>>
>> L. Sergius Aust.
>>
>> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
>Now THAT'S funny!
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
>service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
><a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>