Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: underwear and apologies
From:
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:11:22 EST

In a message dated 11/16/98 4:47:19 PM Central Standard Time,
p--------@-------- writes:

> Second, within the past couple of weeks someone (Zonara?) posted a few
> thoughtful and informative paragraphs on Roman underwear.

Nope, wasn't me, I don't do underwear - togas, and himations, and sandals, and
mead and wine and dormice, yes, but not underwear.

Secunda Floria Zonara


Subject:	Re: Patrician and plebeans
From:	amethystcrystallight@-------- (Amethyst C Light)
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 02:58:30 -0600

On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:22:18 -0800 (PST) Masterofhistory
masterofhistor--------.. writes:

>That was a main reason
>for establishing the office of Tribune of the Plebs, to calm the
>uproar that the plebeans were raising against the domination of the
>patricians.
>
>Nieuhr concluded
>that the Plebeans were a group of people originally alien to the
>'Roman' community. These two gentlemen provide the basis for the
>popular view of what the Patrician and Plebeans were. From their
>assumptions stem the ideas that the Plebeans were not full citizens
>or
>constituted a servile caste.
>
>Consider that the first and perhaps most famous Consul (Probably
>titled Praetor) was L. Junius Brutus, was a Plebean. In the first
>century of the Republic, Plebeans held the likely singular office of
>Consul (Praetor) at least 20 times.
>I agree that this is far from a majority, but it shows that Plebeans
>could stand for election, did and were elected to the high office.

>This makes the
>Tribunate appear less like a concession by a ruling class to their
>powerless clienta and more like an attempt at creating a system of
>check and balance.
>
>Respectfully,
>Avidius Tullius Callidus
>Paterfamilias, gens Tullia
>Candidate for Tribune of the People
>

NOW I remember why I liked history so much!!!!!

Now I have "We shall Overcome" going through my head!!

'Nuther question: Were you born into a Gens, or did you get to pick and
choose??

Maybe I should stop reading my email in the dead of night...........just
eat, drink and waddle my silly butt back to bed!!! All this stimulation
CAN'T be good for me!!!

Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
amethystcrystallight@-------- / mater2romani@--------
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>

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Subject:	The city of Arles
From:	Fabio Incutti incutti@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:01:04 +0100

Ave quirites,

an interesting new appeared on today's edition of "Il Messaggero" (the most important Roman newspaper).

The Major of Arles, France, announced that the most recent studies on the well known fresco of a city, found in the Domus Aurea, revealed that the city itself is the ancient Arles.

Experts could say that from the comparison of the theatre depicted in the fresco and from a number of other particulars.

I'll try to acquire more information for all of you interested.

Valete omnes.

Primus Fabius
-----------------
Mihi Fortuna Adiuvat, Invidia Perit


Subject:	The city of Arles
From:	Fabio Incutti incutti@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:30:09 +0100

Ave quirites,

Paolo Poeschi, Major of the city of Arles, France, has announced that the city depicted in the fresco found in the Domus Aurea is Arles.

This should come from the exact idemtification of some particulars of the fresco.

No comment by the Italian Authority for Archeology, which has not confirmed the discovery yet.

Arles is located in the south of France, was conquered by Romans in 125 B.C.. In the city it's possible to see an ancient Roman theatre with 26000 seats buildt under Vespasian.

Valete.

Primus Fabius
-----------------
Mihi Fortuna Adiuvat, Invidia Perit


Subject:	Fwd: [novaroma] The city of Arles
From:	Claudia Aprica quinta_claudia_lucentia_aprica@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 03:40:37 -0800 (PST)

---Fabio Incutti incutti@-------- wrote:
>
> Fro--------abio Incutti incutti@--------
>
> Ave quirites,
>
> Paolo Poeschi, Major of the city of Arles, France, has announced
that the city depicted in the fresco found in the Domus Aurea is Arles.
>
> This should come from the exact idemtification of some particulars
of the fresco.

This is, of course, an interesting theory, but it does remind me
somewhat of an article I read a few months ago in 'The Times', where a
British Archaeologist tried to claim that the fresco represented the
city of London, and I feel it should be treated with the same
scepticism.
The representation is really very generic, and could be mapped
onto virtually any Roman city you would care to name. It shows
elements such as a colonnaded area, a river, city walls, and a
theatre, but they are shown in a fairly simplistic manner, suggesting
that they are intended more as 'symbols' of these buildings, than a
realistic representation of particular buildings in an actual town.
It's tempting, of course, for the inhabitants of any Roman town to try
to appropriate the image, but I really don't think anyone will ever
prove conclusively that the fresco shows any specific town.
Some important points to bear in mind arise from the context of
the painting. It's from the Domus Aurea, and extremely extravagant
palace built by Nero after A.D. 64, and abandoned after his death in
68 - Vespasian, who became emperor in 69, did everything he could to
distance himself from Nero and his regime, including building the
Colosseum in the former grounds of Nero's palace. By Trajan's reign
(98 - 117), the palace had been partially demolished, and a set of
baths built over it.
The fresco must therefore have been painted in a very narrow date
range between Nero's palace being finished and his death - this almost
completely rules out London's claim for a start, because London was a
very new city at this time, and almost certainly _didn't_ have all the
required elements of theatre, colonnades, walls etc. I don't know the
date of the theatre at Arles, and it may very well have existed when
the painting was made, but this is still a simple details which needs
checking before we believe the Mayor's claim.
Secondly, the painting is located in a the pleasure-palace of an
extremely arrogant emperor. The article I read in 'The Times'
immediately made me ask - what would such a man want with a painting
of an insignificant provincial city like London on his wall? Although
Arles probably meant more to Nero than London, it still seems very
unlikely to me that he would want a picture of it in his palace. The
most likely solution is either than the picture is simply a generic
painting of _a_ city, to decorate the walls of the emperor's palace,
or that if it is any particular city, it is most probably meant to
represent Rome, where Nero lived and held his power.
To me as an urban archaeologist, the painting is very interesting
as an insight into the way cities were perceived and depicted in early
imperial Rome, but, tempting though it may be, I don't think trying to
identify the painting with any particular city will really get us
anywhere.
Valete,
Q. Claudia Lucentia Aprica.
Candidate for Praetor Urbanus.
==
**********************************************************************
Drop in on my gens - <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133</a>
**********************************************************************


Subject:	Attn: Campaign of Antonius Gryllus Graecus for the office of Tribune of the Plebs.
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:19:21 -0000

Salve cives!

To have a Constitution is not enough. Rome needs a man able to defend it.
Vote Antonius Gryllus Graecus for the office of Tribune of the Plebs!

"Mea vita pro Re Publica!" - Antonius Gryllus Graecus


Subject:	Re: Fwd: [novaroma] The city of Arles
From:	amethystcrystallight@--------)
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:42:20 -0600

On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 03:40:37 -0800 (PST) Claudia Aprica
quinta_claudia_lucentia_aprica@-------- writes:
but I really don't think anyone will ever
>prove conclusively that the fresco shows any specific town.
> Some important points to bear in mind arise from the context of
>the painting.

Don't get mad at me, but.....: are a fresco and a painting the same
thing? If they aren't, then what is a fresco?

::::unashamedly asking for a translation::::

Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
amethystcrystallight@-------- / mater2romani@--------
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>

___________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Speaking of Togae....
From:	flavia@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:58:42 -0600

Salvete, Romani!
SVVBE

It's nice to know that there's someone else out there who knows how
to make a toga (Zonara)! As much as Cassius has hounded me, I am
presuming there is great wealth in making togae! ; )Perhaps we
should join the Ordo of Equestors... <$ka-ching$>

Also, for your viewing pleasure, hopefully, I will be able to get
the pictures of me in my Halloween costume this year (as Medusa) and
publicize it before someone else does, this being election time and
all!

Studiose,

Minervina Iucundia Flavia
Praetrix SE USA Provincia
-----------------
Origin--------ext from Nodigio@--------

From: Nodigio@--------

In a message dated 11/16/98 4:47:19 PM Central Standard Time,
p--------@-------- writes:

> Second, within the past couple of weeks someone (Zonara?) posted a
few
> thoughtful and informative paragraphs on Roman underwear.

Nope, wasn't me, I don't do underwear - togas, and himations, and
sandals, and
mead and wine and dormice, yes, but not underwear.

Secunda Floria Zonara

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Subject:	Re: Speaking of Togae....
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:49:20 -0500

flavia@-------- w--------:

> F-------- flavia@--------
>
>
>
> Salvete, Romani!
> SVVBE
>
> It's nice to know that there's someone else out there who knows how
> to make a toga (Zonara)! As much as Cassius has hounded me, I am
> presuming there is great wealth in making togae! ; )Perhaps we
> should join the Ordo of Equestors... <$ka-ching$>
>
> Also, for your viewing pleasure, hopefully, I will be able to get
> the pictures of me in my Halloween costume this year (as Medusa) and
> publicize it before someone else does, this being election time and
> all!
>

I LOVE the Medusa! I really want to see this pic (especially as I understand
she used real snakes!) and put it in the Eagle!

-- Flavia Claudia


Subject:	Re: Frescos and paintings (was: The city of Arles)
From:	Fabio Incutti incutti@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:55:18 +0100

Ave,
Frescos is a painting depicted directly on the wall durung the latest phase of its construction, when it is still wet. Of course, fresco technique can be used on pre-existing walls, giving to the wall itself a new superficial white _cover_ and painting it when it is still wet (in italian, _fresco_, from which the name of the technique).

As you can imagine, once fresco is located, you can't move it away as you could do with a painting, so the technique has been used to decorate churches, villas, etc.

There is a lot of examples of fresco painting in Italy, the most famous of which are, I guess, Leonardo da Vinci's _Cenacolo_ (the latest dinner of Jesus) in Milan and the Creation of the World in Sistin Chapel (Rome, Vatican).

----------
Da: Amethyst C Light[SMTP:amethystcrystallight@--------]
Inviato: marted� 17 novembre 1998 13.42
A: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Oggetto: [novaroma] Re: Fwd: [novaroma] The city of Arles

From: amethystcrystallight@-------- (Amethyst C Light)

Don't get mad at me, but.....: are a fresco and a painting the same
thing? If they aren't, then what is a fresco?

Vale

Primus Fabius

Mihi Fortuna Adiuvat, Invidia Perit


Subject:	Crazy people....
From:	Magnus /The Emperor/ Ingmarsson emperor@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:18:01 +0100 (MET)

Do check out the links from this page.... :-<

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Baja/8137/rome.html" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Baja/8137/rome.html</a>

I don't know weather to laugh or cry, but hopefully this can be used to
really make the EU become a world government and boy wouldn't the people
that beliave this make their own prophecy come true...

Then it is just up to us at Nova Roma to really make the EU-world govt.
into the Roman Empire. :-D

Magnus Hadrianus, Proconsul of the Thule Provincia and European Federalist


Subject:	Re: Patrician and plebeans
From:	"RMerullo" merullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:36:22 -0500

Salvete Crystallina et alii

Well, a pattern is forming: Crystallina asks a question, Merullus answers
with general info, then Callidus fills in and provides a more accurate
answer.

According to this pattern, I should probably stop posting my simplistic
answers, shouldnt I?

Well, for what it's worth....

-----Original Message-----
From: Amethyst C Light amethystcrystallight@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:56 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Patrician and plebeans

In Roma antiqua, citizens were generally born into gentes, which were either
patrician or plebeian. Two exceptions: slaves who were manumitted
generally joined the gens of the manumitter (usually former master), and,
people occasionally were adopted into a gens, like Publius Claudius/Clodius,
who joined a Plebeian gens so that he could become a tribune and make
trouble for the Senate. I believe that non-Romans, upon receiving
citizenship, generally started new gentes as clients of the benefactor, the
senator or magistrate most responsible for extending citizenship to them.

Callide, how much of what I said is true?

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Re: Age
From:	"RMerullo" merullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:48:27 -0500

Salvete Crystallina et alii

I believe that the maioritas begins at age XVI.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
-----Original Message-----
From: Amethyst C Light amethystcrystallight@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 11:23 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Age

>From: amethystcrystallight@-------- (Amethyst C Light)
>
>Salvete --
>
>
>Could someone confirm for me the age when children could become
>citizens?? Was it 16 or 18??
>
>
>
>Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
>amethystcrystallight@-------- / mater2romani@--------
><a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at <a href="http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html" target="_top" >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html</a>
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
><a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>


Subject:	Re: Patrician and plebeans
From:	"RMerullo" merullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:00:41 -0500

Salvete Avidi Tulli et alii

I guess that my patrician vs. plebeian brew suffered in the distillation.

Thank you for this piece Avidi Tulli.

>
>This is certainly the distilled traditional version of the division of
>the 'orders' Mommsen thought the Plebeans were the class of clienta
>attached to Patrician gentes, sort of like serfs.

Could you please provide me with the title of Mommsen's work, in which he
makes this assertion? I should probably add it to my reading list.

Nieuhr concluded
>that the Plebeans were a group of people originally alien to the
>'Roman' community. These two gentlemen provide the basis for the
>popular view of what the Patrician and Plebeans were. From their
>assumptions stem the ideas that the Plebeans were not full citizens or
>constituted a servile caste

----Good clarification snipped only for brevity---

>The Tribunate dates to ca494 in the early Republic. This makes the
>Tribunate appear less like a concession by a ruling class to their
>powerless clienta and more like an attempt at creating a system of
>check and balance.

My assumption that the tribunate was created as a concession to the Plebs
was tinged by the story of the secession of the Plebs. Did the latter event
not have some causative effect on esablishment of the tribunate? When were
the Plebs supposed to have seceded, anyway?

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Re: Age
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:58:26 -0500

Salvete
Art.II, no.2 ..."Individuals fifteen years or older but not yet
eighteen may attain Citizenship through the normal application process with
the written permission of their parent or legal guardian."...

Vale, L Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus

>Salvete Crystallina et alii
>I believe that the maioritas begins at age XVI.
>Valete
>Gaius Marius Merullus

>>Could someone confirm for me the age when children could become
>>citizens?? Was it 16 or 18??
>>
>>Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Subject:	Re: Speaking of Togae....
From:	flavia@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:43:30 -0600

-----------------
Or--------al Text from m--------oon@--------

From: m--------oon@--------

flavia@-------- w--------:

> F-------- flavia@--------
>
>
>
> Salvete, Romani!
> SVVBE
>
> It's nice to know that there's someone else out there who knows how
> to make a toga (Zonara)! As much as Cassius has hounded me, I am
> presuming there is great wealth in making togae! ; )Perhaps we
> should join the Ordo of Equestors... <$ka-ching$>
>
> Also, for your viewing pleasure, hopefully, I will be able to get
> the pictures of me in my Halloween costume this year (as Medusa)
and
> publicize it before someone else does, this being election time and
> all!
>

I LOVE the Medusa! I really want to see this pic (especially as I
understand
she used real snakes!) and put it in the Eagle!

-- Flavia Claudia

It's Iucundia, again..

Me and my BIG mouth....
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Subject:	Re: Patrician and plebeans
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:09:17 -0500

RMerullo wrote:

> From: "RMerullo" merullo@--------
>
> Salvete Crystallina et alii
>
> Well, a pattern is forming: Crystallina asks a question, Merullus answers
> with general info, then Callidus fills in and provides a more accurate
> answer.

You guys make a great team! Talk about a Triumvirate...

-- Flavia Claudia


Subject:	Roman calendar...
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:30:09 -0000

Salvete omnes!

I know this is a tough moment to ask these things but...
What is the current status of the Calendar in the Nova Roma Web page? The Main calendar page starts with Quinctilis until December. Meanwhile, individual month pages are only valid from Martius to Junius...

Valete!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)


Subject:	Oops was Re: Age
From:	"RMerullo" merullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:18:49 -0500

Salvete

I meant that maioritas in Roma Antiqua started at age 16 (I think though am
probably wrong). I did not understand that the question related to Nova
Roma.

But, since the question is relevant to Nova Roma, shouldnt the legal age of
maturity in NR be based on that of Roma Antiqua? What does everyone think?

My own opinion (of course I have an opinion on this, like everything else)
is that it should, since we are trying to re-build all elements of Roma
Antiqua with a few notable exceptions ("compromises to modern sensibilities"
was the phrase, right?), and I see nothing offensive in 16 as the age of
maturity (if 16 was in fact the Roman age of maturity).

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius v--------l@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 1:14 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Age

>From: "Lucius" v--------l@--------
>
>Salvete
> Art.II, no.2 ..."Individuals fifteen years or older but not yet
>eighteen may attain Citizenship through the normal application process with
>the written permission of their parent or legal guardian."...
>
> Vale, L Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus
>
>
>>Salvete Crystallina et alii
>>I believe that the maioritas begins at age XVI.
>>Valete
>>Gaius Marius Merullus
>
>
>>>Could someone confirm for me the age when children could become
>>>citizens?? Was it 16 or 18??
>>>
>>>Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
>>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>


Subject:	Re: Patrician and plebeans
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:01:09 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Masterofhistory wrote:

> From: Masterofhistor--------sterofhistor--------..
>
> Salvete omnes,

> It is only an assumption that the Senate was originally a body of
> Patrician elders, true, mostly Patrician names appear in it but these
> records never designate Patrician or Plebean. Also consider that
> several names of the gentes had Plebean and Patrician branches.
> Originally, in the early Republic the Senate had no defined function
> not even the weight of its traditions, it could not convene without
> the magistrates' authority. And even if the Senate was a body of
> ex-magistrates, as it became, there would be many Plebeans in it.
> Consider that the first and perhaps most famous Consul (Probably
> titled Praetor) was L. Junius Brutus, was a Plebean.

Forgive me for coming to the defense of my spiritual ancestors but
I must! :)

Some recent scholars have made the claim that *perhaps* he was a Pleb but
will not say definitely because it cannot be proved defintively. More than
likely he was a patrician, as the Romans of the later Republic believed
and that the later Iunii simply took claim to the name of the Iunii
Brutii. Marcus Iunius Brutus, the plebiean who killed Caesar, was not an
actual descendant of Lucius Iunius Brutus, Consul and Patrician.

Palladius

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.


Subject:	Re: Patrician and plebeans
From:	amethystcrystallight@--------)
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:10:42 -0600

On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:36:22 -0500 "RMerullo" merullo@--------
writes:
>From: "RMerullo" merullo@--------
>
>Salvete Crystallina et alii
>
>Well, a pattern is forming: Crystallina asks a question, Merullus
>answers
>with general info, then Callidus fills in and provides a more
>accurate
>answer.
>
>According to this pattern, I should probably stop posting my
>simplistic
>answers, shouldnt I?
>

OH NO YOU DON'T!!!!!!! You're not getting off the hook THAT easily!!!
<G> Between the two of you I am understanding just fine thank you!!!
You know me: Slow and simple wins the race!!

>Well, for what it's worth....
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Amethyst C Light amethystcrystallight@--------
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:56 AM
>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Patrician and plebeans
>
>
>In Roma antiqua, citizens were generally born into gentes, which were
>either
>patrician or plebeian. Two exceptions: slaves who were manumitted
>generally joined the gens of the manumitter (usually former master),
>and,
>people occasionally were adopted into a gens, like Publius
>Claudius/Clodius,
>who joined a Plebeian gens so that he could become a tribune and make
>trouble for the Senate. I believe that non-Romans, upon receiving
>citizenship, generally started new gentes as clients of the
>benefactor, the
>senator or magistrate most responsible for extending citizenship to
>them.
>
>Callide, how much of what I said is true?
>
>Gaius Marius Merullus
>

Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
amethystcrystallight@-------- / mater2romani@--------
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>

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Subject:	Re: Oops was Re: Age
From:	amethystcrystallight@--------)
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:24:38 -0600

On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:18:49 -0500 "RMerullo" merullo@--------
writes:
>From: "RMerullo" merullo@--------
>
>Salvete
>
>I meant that maioritas in Roma Antiqua started at age 16 (I think
>though am
>probably wrong). I did not understand that the question related to
>Nova
>Roma.
>

::::grins mischievously:::: ALL will be revealed.......AFTER the
elections!!! I am asking the questions for a reason though. It really
ISN'T just to keep you guys hopping (but that's fun to watch too <G>)

Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
amethystcrystallight@-------- / mater2romani@--------
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>

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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


Subject:	Re: Oops was Re: Age
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:31:54 -0500

Salvete
I don't think she specified either Nova Roma or Roma Antiqua but the
age seems to be 16-17 for the wearing of the Toga virilis on an annual feast
day.
Vale L Equitius

>I meant that maioritas in Roma Antiqua started at age 16 (I think though am
>probably wrong). I did not understand that the question related to Nova
>Roma.
>
>But, since the question is relevant to Nova Roma, shouldnt the legal age of
>maturity in NR be based on that of Roma Antiqua? What does everyone think?
>
>My own opinion (of course I have an opinion on this, like everything else)
>is that it should, since we are trying to re-build all elements of Roma
>Antiqua with a few notable exceptions ("compromises to modern
sensibilities"
>was the phrase, right?), and I see nothing offensive in 16 as the age of
>maturity (if 16 was in fact the Roman age of maturity).
>>
>>Salvete
>> Art.II, no.2 ..."Individuals fifteen years or older but not yet
>>eighteen may attain Citizenship through the normal application process
with
>>the written permission of their parent or legal guardian."...
>>
>> Vale, L Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus
>>
>>
>>>Salvete Crystallina et alii
>>>I believe that the maioritas begins at age XVI.
>>>Valete
>>>Gaius Marius Merullus
>>
>>>>Could someone confirm for me the age when children could become
>>>>citizens?? Was it 16 or 18??
>>>>Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
>>>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Subject:	Epistola pro Flavium Vedium Germanicum.
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:16:16 -0000

Salvete omnes!

I'm writing this letter because the Constitutional crisis of this weekend seems to have sealed the fate of the cursus honorum of citizen Flavius Vedius Germanicus.
I just want you, fellow citizens, to evaluate what would happen had Germanicus not spoken on favour of Nova Roma. Right now he would most certainly be a Senator.
I make an appeal to you and to our noble Senate...
Don't let your clemency be partial. You were willing to forgive Germanicus for his give up of citizenship and would even restore his rank of Senator... Can you not forgive the fact that he - now as a citizen - has a different opinion from yours?
People and Senate of Rome, Don't forget that even if he committed errors, it was for the sake of Nova Roma, for the sake of Nova Roma's noble Constitution, definition of rights and duties of all citizens. And above all, remember that there was no self interest on his acts, for right now he would most certainly be a Senator.
I'm sure the Senate of Nova Roma will be fair on its decision.

Valete omnes!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)


Subject:	Oops was Re: Age
From:	Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:34:08 -0500

Salvete omnes

16 isn't right for Roma Antiqua. To give a very very simplified version
(especially as I'm writing this at home without books to hand)

a) Everyone who had a living male ancestor (father, grandfather ...) was in
"patria potestas" and lacked independent legal capacity (couldn't own
property, except the "peculium" the paterfamilias allowed them, or make
(fully) binding contracts or sue (without the paterfamilias). Married
women, if married some forms, passed from the potestas of their father to
the "manus" of their husband (which was similar but not identical); if
married by other forms they remained in their father's potestas. Either sex
could be emancipated by formal legal methods. However, it doesn't seem that
adults were all emancipated, because the lawyers went on talking about the
peculia, contracts and businesses of sons in power well down into the
Empire.

b) Suppose you have no ancestor, and therefore would be a paterfamilias but
are young

i) below 14 are "impuberes" - this affects mainly the validity of marriage
but also some other activities

ii) below 25 are "pupilli", who have to have a "tutor" to do certain sorts
of legal transactions.

Age of majority therefore varies for different purposes; but the nearest
approach is probably 25. For citizenship purposes we should probably stick
to legal age for your civil jurisdiction...

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister


Subject:	an Opinion of L.Equitius Cincinatus
From:	Ricci razenna@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:06:01 -0800

This is an endorsement of Lucius Equitius Cincinatus for the
office of Consul.

I could go into a bunch of the standard electioneering phrases
and ceterae. --- He's what Nova Roma needs! He embodies the old
Roman virtues! ... and the whole lot, many more that I've picked
up through years of elections in Mundania before Nova Roma ever
came along. And I could tailor them to Nova Roma, and Roma
Antiqua. It would even be fun, but I would lose the point of the
exercise. The point being that I believe Lucius Equitius
Cincinatus is the candidate for Consul to vote for.

These are some of the opinions I've formed of Equitius in the
months I've known him here in Nova Roma, and why I believe he
should be elected Consul
... he is honest.
... he understands family (that is on thing Nova Roma is about,
isn't it?)
... he is loyal and understands commitment and discipline. Yes,
I draw some of this opinion of Equitius from his naval career.
But even those people who have questions about the validity of
the military experience should grant that anyone who pursues a
career that is under paid, dangerous, demanding, often
humiliating, the source of many domestic strains and which a
large portion of the community despises has definitely shown
himself to be committed to what he has undertaken and loyal to
something beyond himself. The self discipline comes with the
turf.
Equitius is also a human being. During this past year I've
experienced his temper, his opinions and (the Gods spare us) his
sense of humor.

My vote for Consul will be for Lucius Equitius Cincinatus.

I sign this as nothing other than myself,

Caius Aelius Ericius
Citizen of Nova Roma


Subject:	Re: Roman calendar...
From:	Claud----------------oon@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:13:09 -0500

pjane wrote:
>
> From: p-------- p--------@--------
>
> Quoth Antonio Grilo:
>
> >What is the current status of the Calendar in the Nova Roma Web page? The
> >Main calendar page starts with Quinctilis until December. Meanwhile,
> >individual month pages are only valid from Martius to Junius...
>
> It is waiting for me to finish the month pages and for someone else
> (volunteers, please?) to finish writing the descriptions of the holidays.
>
Patricia, I'll volunteer to do the description of the holidays, because
I do it ANYWAY for the Eagle. However, if anyone ELSE wants to do it and
e-mail it to the Webmaster AND to the Eagle (did you guys catch the
subtle hint, there?)

-- Flavia Claudia


Subject:	Re: candidates
From:	Masterofhistory masterofhistory@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:10:51 -0800 (PST)

salvete,

Thank you for posting the candidates Claudia, I hope everyone takes
notice. One thing is missing, didn't Marcus Mucius Scaevola Magister
enter the contest for Praetor Urbanus? I remember reading a statement
of his a while ago.

Respectfully,
Avidius Tullius Callidus
Paterfamilias, gens Tullia
Candidate for Tribune of the People