Subject:	Re: Casual Enthusiasts vs Life
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:45:15 EST

In a message dated 12/4/98 10:19:37 PM Central Standard Time,
rmerullo@-------- writes:

>
> I think that you are right in pointing to Religio Romana as the force that
> can bind us together, Dexippe, even though it will prevent many casual
> enthusiasts of Rome from joining.
>

But if they're casual enthusiasts of Rome, would they be good citizens for
Nova Roma? Nova Roma is a micronation. This requires a certain degree of
commitment. Can a casual enthusiast be comfortable in the commitment required
of a citizen?

This brings up the interesting question - are there levels of citizenship - or
should there be? Mind you, my thoughts are currently on some old Heinlein
novels - Starship Troopers, to be exact (OK and maybe a bit of Podkayne of
Mars and Rolling Stones, and Citizen of the Galaxy.....). Should some be "low
level" citizens who mainly lurk in the background, sometimes offering a
thought or two, but mostly being just a warm body? And others be "mid level"
citizens who offer interesting information and resources, play at being
members, (and here the RPGers come to mind, the holiday re-enactors), and are
still primarily warm bodies? And others be "high level" citizens who
contribute in several ways and offer support, perhaps even hold office
periodically or lead subgroups within the micronation - but have a home life
that is Romaesque in the way of a collector or dedicated hobbyist? And still
others who are "prime" citizens, who live, eat, breathe, are Nova Romans?

Let me pause here to classify myself as currently being somewhere between mid
and high level.

Back to the levels of citizenship and 'casual enthusiasts'. I think there is
a place for all levels of participation, BUT (you knew there was a 'but'
didn't you?) I think the right to vote shouldn't be freely given to anyone who
expresses an interest in joining Nova Roma (call me elitist, OK?). People
who, over time and by example of their actions and participation in things
Nova Roman, earn the right to run for and hold office would also earnt the
right to decide policy, cast votes, etc. That means that 'high' and 'prime'
level citizens would be the ones to make decisions, whereas 'casual
enthusiasts' who don't feel the same degree of commitment, don't have the
burden of making decisions. They can come and play, stay a while, maybe
progress up through the levels - or walk away. The higher they progress up
the levels, the greater their commitment to Nova Roma, and the less likely
they would be to abandon an office, or to make a decision that might hurt Nova
Roma.

Ah well, just a bit of meandering inspired by a chance phrase......Don't take
what I said seriously (unless you are serious)

Secunda Floria Zonara

Subject:	Re: A separate list for campaigning
From:	"D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 01:54:01 -0500 (EST)

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Claudia wrote:

> From: Claud----------------oon@--------
>
> D. Iunius Palladius wrote:
> >
> > From: "D. Iunius Palladius" amcgrath@--------
> >
> >> Rather than exclude rough and tumble politics, I would be in favor of
> > setting up a separate list for it.
>
> Wonderful idea! Palladius, still up for a little one-on-one arm
> rasslin'? Or would you rather wait for Venator to fill the
> pudding-wrestling pit? I was kind of looking forward to this -- what
> other chance does a Vestal have for full-contact sports with a guy of
> the opposite male gender?

The pudding wrestling has potential. Only with witnesses though, Claudia,
I would hate to see you buried alive for the sanctity of the office! :)

So is there going to be a wrestling pit at the Concordia ritual? We can
advertise, "Wrestling for Harmony!" or "A Headlock will bring you peace!"


Palladius



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: A separate list for campaigning
From:	Amgunn@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:51:00 EST

Hailsa et Avete!

Double Fudge Mocha, with a Raspberry Mint sauce over the top is what I propose
for the Pudding Pit. Just as soon as we have a Consul, Senator or other
Personage ready with a site, a kitchen and funds for the ingredients, oh say,
about 50 or 60 gallons ought to do, with a reserve of 20 or so .

Vertu Saell and Valete

Venator

Subject:	Re: Casual Enthusiasts vs Life
From:	Amgunn@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:50:59 EST

Hailsa et Avete!

Foederati vice Cives? Many Organizations I belong to have auxiliary/non-
voting memberships for those who either can not or will not make a level of
commitment necessary to 'get the job done', as it were.

The Auxiliary members of my Sportsman's club for instance, pay less for
membership, but don't have a vote - and there access to our shooting grounds
is limited. Full members vote, have their own key to the grounds and are
expected to participate in work days. It is a system which works well. Or
the much beloved SCA, you have to be a member to be an officer, or to fight
for the Crown, seems to have worked fine for 30 years and more...

mea sententia

Vertu Saeell and Valete

Venator

Subject:	Re: The position of Tribune Plebis
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 11:33:12 EST

In a message dated 12/4/98 4:52:45 PM EST, amcgrath@-------- writes:

<< The position does provide protection for the plebeians. While there is
less of a distinction bewteen patricians and plebeians in Nova Roma than
ancient Rome, there is one similarity between the ancients and us that is
obvious: the patricians, having been here first, have an early lock on the
power in Nova Roma. >>

I would disagree with you here. Patricians do not have a lock on the power in
Nova Roma. Anyone can run for Consul and anyone can be appointed to the
Senate regardless of class

<<Is it fair that plebeians only can run for the position of Tribune of the
Plebs? Maybe not, but it is Roman. >>

But Plebeians can run for other positions. They are not only restricted to
running for Tribune.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: A separate list for campaigning
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sat, 05 Dec 1998 08:45:25 -0800

Venator wrote: {[ I added his name myself. It helps identify
Who I'm quoteing. (hint) ]}

> Hailsa et Avete!
>
> Double Fudge Mocha, with a Raspberry Mint sauce over the top is what I propose
> for the Pudding Pit. Just as soon as we have a Consul, Senator or other
> Personage ready with a site, a kitchen and funds for the ingredients, oh say,
> about 50 or 60 gallons ought to do, with a reserve of 20 or so .

There is an old Science Fiction fandom story about a pool full of lime jello...
Anybody have a hot-tub to offer as a pudding dish, for the Glory of Nova Roma (of
course).

Ave Roma Immortalis.

Ericius

>

Subject:	Re: Casual Enthusiasts vs Life
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 11:48:21 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/5/98 0:46:34 AM EST, Nodigio@-------- writes:

<< This brings up the interesting question - are there levels of citizenship -
or
should there be? >> etc.

Well...as I may agree with you in spirit, I think it would be quite subjective
to define someone's level of citizenship.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: A separate list for campaigning
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 11:49:14 EST

In a message dated 12/5/98 1:54:11 AM EST, amcgrath@-------- writes:

<< The pudding wrestling has potential. Only with witnesses though, Claudia,
I would hate to see you buried alive for the sanctity of the office! :) >>

I will gladly wrestle in the pudding as Claudia's champion!

--Dexippus
Pudding Wrestler Extraordinairre

Subject:	Re: A separate list for campaigning
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 11:50:00 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/5/98 8:51:07 AM EST, Amgunn@-------- writes:

<< Double Fudge Mocha, with a Raspberry Mint sauce over the top is what I
propose
for the Pudding Pit. J >>

PISTACCIO! PISTACCIO! PISTACCIO!

--Dexippus
<<nut freak>>

Subject:	Re: Pudding For Peace
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:23:41 -0500

Dexippus@-------- wrote:
>
> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 12/5/98 1:54:11 AM EST, amcgrath@-------- writes:
>
> << The pudding wrestling has potential. Only with witnesses though, Claudia,
> I would hate to see you buried alive for the sanctity of the office! :) >>
>
> I will gladly wrestle in the pudding as Claudia's champion!

Well, it looks like we're about to have a Nova Roma free-for-all
Pudding-fest! And after what we've been through lately, it couldn't come
at a better time.

And, Palladius...I also think this would be a perfect event for
Concordia! Body-slammin' for Concord! It worked for Jesse Ventura!

EVERYBODY INTO THE PUDDING!!!

-- Flavia Claudia
Vestal and Pudding Champ

Subject:	Re: Casual Enthusiasts vs Life
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:31:50 -0500

Amgunn@-------- wrote:
>
> From: Amgunn@--------
>
> Hailsa et Avete!
>
> Foederati vice Cives? Many Organizations I belong to have auxiliary/non-
> voting memberships for those who either can not or will not make a level of
> commitment necessary to 'get the job done', as it were.
>

>
This is very interesting. Come to think of it, I'm a member of a couple
of professional organizations that also have 'auxiliary' or 'associate'
members, who can't vote. They also are not expected to take on as much
responsibility: they can "lurk' so to speak. To vote or become officers
they have to meet some requirements and apply for the privilege.

Some potential Citizens may not even WANT this level of involvement, but
they'd like to stay connected. In Ancient Rome, not everyone could vote,
either -- you had to be a full Citizen of Rome. That's one reason that
Citizenship was so highly prized. Refusal to extend Citizenship to all
of Italy also contributed to the Social Wars, but I think we can avoid
that part!

Perhaps we could give people this choice when they apply for
Citizenship?

It's worth discussing, and probably a good subject for the new Senate to
consider.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Casual Enthusiasts vs Life
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:46:00 -0500

Claudia wrote:
>
Replying to my own message...now this is pathetic.

>
> Perhaps we could give people this choice when they apply for
> Citizenship?
>
One of the perks of selective Citizenship comes at election time. As
we're seeing right now, it's an enormous chore to assign voting codes
and tribes to the entire roll of Citizens -- and we can be pretty sure
that some of these Citizens won't even care to vote (just like in
Massachusetts' gubernatorial elections!)

If there's some kind of "auxiliary" Citizenship, perhaps an Aux Cive
must become a full Cive to be assigned to a voting tribe or get a voting
code. We're also spending a lot on the election Eagle -- if we only sent
it to full Cives eligible to vote, we'd save a bundle.

Perhaps we should also start thinking about the perks of Citizenship vs.
not being one. Being a Citizen should carry a certain level of
responsibility -- what does everyone think?

--Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Auxiliary Citizenship
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:28:14 -0500 (EST)

I also belong to a shooting club that has Auxiliary Memeber, who cannot
vote or hold office. In this particular case both of those functions
require more time and effort, and we are always full up with Aux.
Members. We set a limit of 25% Aux. Membership and found it necessary
recently to up that to 35%.

Now this organization is one with a primative black powder range,
primitive camp-ground, and a primitive place to meet monthly during the
summer months.

I started as an Aux. member because I had committments limiting my
involvement with the club. After two years I registered as a full
member and was elected President four months later. The point being
that one can have an auxiliay membership that can at some point be
benefcial to the club as growth occurs.

I agree that because of our membership mix (about 70 active--150 +
total) that the offer of a Aux. Membership might be appealing to those
who have other commitments. I aske the Nova Roma member who was
accepted into NR maybe two months ahead of myself why he never appears
on Onelist or in the Chatroom. He explained that he is very busy with
his new activity (Flashman Club) and he forgets about the Onelist and
has forgotten his Chatroom password. Here is a gentleman who was very
active in a British Roman Legio, an administrative officer, who enjoys
belonging to NR, but is taken up with other commitments.

I agree that the idea has a lot of merit, and perhaps an offer should be
made to all the Non-active members to consider such a Membership cange.

M. Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Auxiliary Citizenship
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:17:09 -0600 (CST)

Salvete omnes!

I think the idea of associate memberships has some merit. But
Dexippus' point is also well-taken (yes, I'm actually agreeing with him
on something! >({|;-) ): How would we go about determining who was
what?

It is one thing to offer the choice of associate membership at the time
of application; it is quite another to have someone go down the list of
current Citizens and say 'Hmm...is this one a 1st-level or a 5th-level
Civis?' I must say I am not at all comfortable with that concept.
(Who *knows* where I'd wind up...<g>) It would be of necessity a
highly-subjective process, and if the standards of participation were
built around things like List contributions or Chatroom presence, it
would be patently unfair to anyone without regular computer access.
(We would be in effect saying that you have to own a computer to be a
full Citizen.)

I think we can avoid that tangle by leaving our present Citizenry
un-classifed for the moment. Any one of us who wants to become an
associate should be permitted to do so. Membership in the (Auxilia?
Foederati? Friends and Allies of the Roman People?) can then be made
available to new applicants at the outset; that way the category is
entirely self-selected, with no judgement calls necessary except on the
part of the applicant. This has a further advantage: It allows those
who are 'not quite sure' about us yet to have a kind of trial
membership.

On a related note: How well are we progressing on processing new
applications? My Florida recruit submitted his before the campaign
season began, and has still not heard from anyone besides his Praetor.

Valete for now...
---
__________ _<~) __________
<-\\\\@@@@@) /##\ (@@@@@////-> Märia Villarroel legion6@--------
<-\\\@@@@(#####@@@@///-> Historical Re-Creationist
<-\\\*##*///-> and Citizen of Rome
o---<<<<||SPQR||>>>>---o Latin lessons, History lectures
///\\\ Role-playing Games, too!

aka Lucius Marius Fimbria on the weekends

Subject:	Updates to the Sodalis Pro Infantia
From:	amethystcrystallight@--------)
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:23:57 -0600

Salvete --


I have made some major additions to the Sodalis Pro Infantia webpage!!
The welcome page has a little picture on it of a Roman Family. I have
added a truckload of information to the Pregnancy and Childbirth page.
There is new information on the History page. The newest picture (about
a week old) of Terrelina is in the Family album.


You can't tell me that the only people in NR with children under 15 are
myself and Cincinatus!!!! But I will assume the two of it are it, since
I haven't gotten any pics of anyone elses kids!! If you are suddenly
remembering that YOU have children under 15, and that there might be a
picture of them on your harddrive or webpage somewhere, please email the
picture to M--------2Two@-------- (Juno won't give me pictures...you get wh--------r> you pay for) or email the web address to either the AOL address or the
Juno address.


So that those civies without human children will not feel left out, I
will be adding a NRPets page provided the pet owners can come up with
pictures of their pets. They don't have to be dogs or cats...rats and
snakes and spiders count too (I think <G>). I looked and looked but
couldn't find any information on the web about ancient roman pets. I
know peacocks were both pets and snacks (I will concentrate on the pet
aspect, Venator can give recipes for when the pet is so badly behaved it
will become dinner), but I can't find any information. Can anyone help?


This ends this report. Thank you!! I'm having a great time doing
this!!!!


Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
amethystcrystallight@-------- / mater2romani@--------
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at <a href="http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html" target="_top" >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html</a>
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Subject:	Re: The position of Tribune Plebis
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:49:58 -0500 (EST)

Actually, as I have given some thought to your questions, why don't we
have a Patrician Tribune or why have Tribunes at all, I find that it is
a very good one. One part of the answer lies in the fact that the Class
situation evolved in the Roman Republic over many years and in Nova Roma
it was a relatively quick decision. Outside of the reasons given by my
esteemed colleague, which was essentially that it was an important
function in the Roman Republic and should be retained in Nova Roma for
that reason, I can agree with that on principle, but can see the
possible down-side as well.

Perhaps one way to look at the situation, is that "if it ain't broke,
don't fix it." We have not yet experienced a problem with the Pleb
Tribune. If it comes to that we should address the problem at that
time. We really do need to try and stay as close to the original
Republican standards as possible until we find that they simply will not
work in this time period.

M. Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Several Subjects
From:	SDmtwi@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:01:31 EST

Si vales, valeo.
Well, I take a month's hiatus from being electronically enabled, and look
what I come back to. Unfortunately, I find that I don't have the stamina to
read all of the 1600+ messages in my inboxes. However, I do have a little to
say about what I have read.
First, I'm dismayed at losing some very good people from offices due to the
recent political bickering. I was especially saddened to see Quinta Claudia
step down. To date, I've been rather impressed with her.
Second, I agree fully with Lucius Marius' points about full and auxiliary
members. I would think that it would be especially hard for the censors to
make an educated decision as to the level of commitment of each member at this
time. His point about excluding the electronically challenged was exactly on
target.
Third, gens Labiena will be larger by one member in about six months. Appia
Claudia and I verified this about two weeks ago, and we had the first sonogram
done this past Wednesday. Both mother and child are in great health. If you
would like, Amethystia Iunia, I'd be happy to send the current picture of our
under 15 year old to you for inclusion on the Sodalis Pro Infantia webpage.
We've gotten over our initial shock (we weren't trying for a child), and now
we're pretty happy and excited about the prospect of being parents.

Valete,
T. Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	Re: Several Subjects
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:15:09 EST

>>Third, gens Labiena will be larger by one member in about six months. Appia
Claudia and I verified this about two weeks ago, and we had the first sonogram
done this past Wednesday. Both mother and child are in great health. If you
would like, Amethystia Iunia, I'd be happy to send the current picture of our
under 15 year old to you for inclusion on the Sodalis Pro Infantia webpage.
We've gotten over our initial shock (we weren't trying for a child), and now
we're pretty happy and excited about the prospect of being parents.>>


OHHHHHH That's wonderful news!!! I was begining to be worried I would have
to make NR Naturals all by myself!!!!!!! Congrats!!!!


I would love to have the picture for the page, just email the address and I'll
go get it.

BTW...in my braindead state, I forgot to add the address for the webpage (DUH)

<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/roma/sodwel.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/roma/sodwel.htm</a>

You guys should check the brand new information on the pregnancy
page...considering how they handled pregnancy and childbirth in the old days
I'm glad I didn't have to do it back then!!!! <G>

Crys

Subject:	Re: Auxiliary Citizenship
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sat, 05 Dec 1998 13:04:38 -0800

Salvete.

If this idea of gradations of membership and activity is
seriously considered, there is a Roma Antiqua structure that we
might be able to adapt, with minor cutting, welding and painting.

The tribes.

The Urban tribes were the ones that had the most say in the
voting.

I'm sure some of our more creative, and more sane members can
think out a set blueprints for the project. Then, of course, we
shall all chime in with suggestions. What we want is to have
things work (without pieces dropping out of the bottom of the
vehicle [big Friendly smile] ).

Ericius

Subject:	Re: The position of Tribune Plebis
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:59:05 EST

{SNIP}

>Perhaps one way to look at the situation, is that "if it ain't broke,
>don't fix it." We have not yet experienced a problem with the Pleb
>Tribune. If it comes to that we should address the problem at that
>time. We really do need to try and stay as close to the original
>Republican standards as possible until we find that they simply will not
>work in this time period.
>
>M. Audens

I think we've already experienced problems with the _absence_ of a
tribunis plebis. Had I been one, I would have vetoed the actions that
altered the voting process and excluded Germanicus from the Senate for
what I consider silly, petty reasons. We obviously need this magistrate
as a check on the behavior of other magistrates, patrician or plebian.

I also think it is as appropriate now as it was in Roma Antiqua for this
tribune to be restricted to the plebian class. It is obvious that some of
those who were here earliest have a tendency to "lord it over" the rest
of us, lecturing us on what Nova Roma is for (always to forward their
personal interests, regardless of what the Founders advertised on the Web
site), and making extra-legal decisions on their own or in consultation
with the other "Boni."

I hope the Tribunes elected as of the Idus will take their
responsibilities seriously. They are needed if Nova Roma is to be kept on
track.

As far as a category of "second class citizenship" (or whatever someone
chooses to call it) is concerned, I agree with those who find the notion
unacceptable. I can see a need for the Censors to keep a record of what
citizens maintain contact with and participate in the life of the
Republic, and I can foresee it might be useful to allow the Republic to
suspend or revoke the citizenship of those who don't even stay in touch
or who engage in actions harmful to the Republic. This would be the
equivalent of the ancient penalty of exile. But the idea of someone
deciding that some citizens should have second class citizenship is
repugnant.

(sigh) I suppose now I must don my cyberlorica for the inevitable
vituperation to be heaped upon those who disagree with the Boni. I can
take it.

L. Sergius Aust.


re vera, cara mea, mea nil refert.

(Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.)

Subject:	Attention Plebeans
From:	Masterofhistory masterofhistory@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:33:24 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

I just want to take the rostrum for a moment to urge those of you who
have not voted yet to take the time to do so. This is your Republic,
excercise your rights.
The Tribune is not the cause of the Republic's problems but one of the
solutions, vote Tullius for Tribune!

Respectfully,
Avidius Tullius Callidus
Paterfamilias, gens Tullia
Candidate for Tribune of the People

Subject:	Re: Casual Enthusiasts vs Life
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:54:50 -0500

Salvete Claudia et omnes

:Replying to my own message...now this is pathetic.

Sounds like something I'd do.
:
:>

:If there's some kind of "auxiliary" Citizenship, perhaps an Aux Cive
:must become a full Cive to be assigned to a voting tribe or get a voting
:code. We're also spending a lot on the election Eagle -- if we only sent
:it to full Cives eligible to vote, we'd save a bundle.

I would rather see the Eagle subscription rate raised than divide Nova
Romans into classes, some of which merit receiving the Eagle and some of
which do not. As far as the difficulty of assigning codes and voters to
tribes etc., the task has been described as difficult by some but as very
easy by others. These assignment tasks do not sound that difficult to me,
but of course I'm only a privatus with no experience in such things. But,
with the use of a spreadsheet program, I would think that numbers could be
generated and matched to cives pretty quickly.
:
:Perhaps we should also start thinking about the perks of Citizenship vs.
:not being one. Being a Citizen should carry a certain level of
:responsibility -- what does everyone think?

I think that citizenship should continue to be bestowed liberally. Let
candidates for offices be judged on the basis of their commitment to the
organization's goals, first and foremost Religio Romana, and it seems to me
that Nova Roma will grow (by no means exponentially) and achieve its goals.

There is no way to ensure that everyone who joins is serious, and it seems
to me that efforts to achieve this would be counter-productive.
:
:--Flavia Claudia
:
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Auxiliary Citizenship
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:11:20 -0500

Salvete Audens et alii

you wrote-

-------require more time and effort, and we are always full up with Aux.
Members. We set a limit of 25% Aux. Membership and found it necessary
recently to up that to 35%.

Now this organization is one with a primative black powder range,
primitive camp-ground, and a primitive place to meet monthly during the
summer months.---------------------

But the organization that you describe focuses on a specific activity; the
latter takes place in a physical, not virtual, place. You use a firing
range to use a certain type of muzzle-loading or other weapon, right? In
such a case as that, the issue may arise of access to the firing range, or
some other practical consideration that necessitates graded membership.

Nova Roma is not, it seems to me, a club that meets to use a facility.
Sure, we go to the chat room and talk etc., but that is only part of what we
are about.

Of course I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I can say that when I
applied for citizenship, I did so after some careful thought and hesitation,
because I was asking to join a sovereign micronation. In applying, I was
declaring that I esteemed the idea of Rome so highly as to want to re-build
it in my own life in concert with others who felt similarly. This
declaration seems pretty non-trivial to me, since it contains spiritual and
political elements.

It seems to me that anyone who makes such a declaration can be called a
citizen. Whether they are a heavily involved citizen or just a lurking one
is a different matter of course, but where is the compelling reason to sort
us out on this basis?

---deletion---------------
you wrote-
member and was elected President four months later. The point being
that one can have an auxiliay membership that can at some point be
benefcial to the club as growth occurs.
-------------------------------
Likewise, I believe that lurking citizens here may become active,
contributing ones over time. This becomes less likely if we say "Hey
Lurker! You dont get no Eagle with your crummy second-class citizenship!"
or something along those lines. What will more likely follow is an increase
in defections.



M. Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Seniority, AuxCits, Tribs
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sat, 05 Dec 1998 16:06:27 -0800

The recent post of Sergius re. Tribs and citizen prompted this
thought, though it doesn't really have much to do with what he,
or others have said... Maybe. It does bring up some old business,
i. e. the Tribes.

We should all be told what Tribes and Centuries we are in. ASAP.
{Remember folks, the key word in there is *Possible*. It ain't
*Possible* if your twelve other things at once. Relax. But don't
procrastinate.}

The Tribes should be Named, not Numbered. Besides being more
accurate, it is Nicer.

People keep going on about this Seniority trip. That some of the
NRomans are an entrenched cabal. So... List everybody's sign on
date (e.g. it need only be like 8/6/51) after their name on the
gentes list. I believe that what this will do is illustrate that
there is not much span in time between anybody. AND as NRoma
goes on in time All of the cits of the first five or so years
will be the Oldies. Who, of course, will be accused of being
stodgy defenders oa all things wrong, et cetera. <Big Wink and a
Smile ;-)>

Ericius.

Subject:	Re: A separate list for campaigning
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:14:54 -0800 (PST)

>
> Double Fudge Mocha, with a Raspberry Mint sauce over the top is what
I propose
> for the Pudding Pit. Just as soon as we have a Consul, Senator or
other
> Personage ready with a site, a kitchen and funds for the
ingredients, oh say,
> about 50 or 60 gallons ought to do, with a reserve of 20 or so .
>
> Vertu Saell and Valete


When when when when when ??????????????????????




Noct'a
Queen pudding fighter!

Subject:	Re: Marius
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:18:44 -0500

legion6@-------- wrote:
>
> On a related note: How well are we progressing on processing new
> applications? My Florida recruit submitted his before the campaign
> season began, and has still not heard from anyone besides his Praetor.
>
I still have the list. Who is he?

-- FC

Subject:	Re: Voter Codes
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:39:35 -0500

Gaius Marius Merullus wrote:
>
>
> which do not. As far as the difficulty of assigning codes and voters to
> tribes etc., the task has been described as difficult by some but as very
> easy by others.

You're right, Merullus, there seems to be some ongoing discussion on how
easy or how hard this is. Assigning the codes themselves is real easy --
Microsoft Access just generates an autonumber in about two seconds.

The nasty part comes from e-mailing everyone SEPARATELY to give them
their codes. And when you consider the Cives who didn't give us valid
e-mail addresses in the first place, and the ones who have changed
addresses but didn't tell us, and the people who don't have e-mail at
all and must be notified by snail mail (unless, of course, they didn't
give us an address EITHER), then I think you can see the problem. And
that's just the U.S. Cives.

Ever since Germanicus stated that assigning the codes was easy, and that
if it had been left to him everything would have run smooth as silk,
some people assume that to be the truth. Like many things, the truth is
kind of complicated. Maybe the whole thing could have been started
earlier, but think back on how much stuff has been going on, has needed
to be done, and is getting done -- all at once. I'm amazed that we've
come as far as we have so quickly. It's taken a lot of work on the part
of several people -- and if one of those people wasn't YOU (not you,
Merullus, this is a collective YOU), then pitch in and volunteer to do
it better. Everyone loves a volunteer!

If anyone knows a real easy way to do this, I'm sure the Consuls, the
Censors, the Senate, the Praetors and the Quaestor would be overjoyed to
hear it. There haven't been nearly enough of them to do the work. Let's
hope the election and the coming year remedy that!

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Seniority, AuxCits, Tribs
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sat, 5 Dec 1998 20:12:20 -0800 (PST)

OK, I think yes it may work to have different levels of citizenship,
but I also agree with Dex.
How can we class people like that?



> The Tribes should be Named, not Numbered. Besides being more
> accurate, it is Nicer.

Yes names would be nicer, more personal


>AND as NRoma
> goes on in time All of the cits of the first five or so years
> will be the Oldies. Who, of course, will be accused of being
> stodgy defenders oa all things wrong, et cetera. <Big Wink and a
> Smile ;-)>
LOL, yes they would!
But as for now, who're the oldies?

>
> Ericius.


Valete!

Noct'a

Subject:	Re: Seniority, AuxCits, Tribs
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:53:48 -0800

A. Iulia wrote:

> OK, I think yes it may work to have different levels of citizenship,
> but I also agree with Dex.
> How can we class people like that?

Implication being, Do we really want to do that. No.

> > The Tribes should be Named, not Numbered. Besides being more
> > accurate, it is Nicer.
>
> Yes names would be nicer, more personal
>
>
> >AND as NRoma
> > goes on in time All of the cits of the first five or so years
> > will be the Oldies. Who, of course, will be accused of being
> > stodgy defenders oa all things wrong, et cetera. <Big Wink and a
> > Smile ;-)>
> LOL, yes they would!
> But as for now, who're the oldies?

Anyone who has been through this campaigning season is OLD!!!

Still,
Ericius.