| Subject: |
Re: Auxiliary Citizenship |
| From: |
legion6@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 00:35:36 -0600 (CST) |
|
Aaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Okay, now we've *all* done it: even the Mighty Marius has now
accidentally posted a personal messsage for one Citizen to the whole
darn List.
My humblest apologies to Dexippus, and I hope this has not blown the
peace effort outta the water...(Pudding, anyone?)
Sheesh.
--MariusFimbria [blushing deeply]
|
| Subject: |
'Pagan' redefined? (was Re: Auxiliary Citizens) |
| From: |
legion6@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 02:42:46 -0600 (CST) |
|
MariusFimbria said:
>>If even *I* cannot find a home here, who have practiced the Via (if
>>not the Religio) solo for almost eight years, what hope is there for
>>anyone who is not actually a Roman Pagan?
...to which Sergius Austalis replied:
>Oh goodness, you've opened the box again!! :-)
>
>Can we not agree that "pagan" has nothing to do with Republican Rome.
>The Religio Romana was not paganism, not Hellenism, not [whathaveyou]
>-- it was the Religio Romana. Nobody was "pagan" until the Christians
>came along and labeled everybody else with that.
>[snip]
>So what is a "Roman Pagan?" A Roman who's still running from
>Constantine's agents?
...and I, MariusFimbria, reply:
Ah-HAH-Ha-ha! [wipes tears of laughter from cheeks]
Yes, why not? It'd solve all *kinds* of difficulties for me--you see,
being a heretical-sect Christian m'self, I am *also* still on the run
from Constantine's agents...or their modern descendents...
...ergo, I'm a pagan too!
[pumps fist] YYESSSS! >({|:-D
Bless you and thank you, Sergius Austalis!
--MariusFimbria
|
| Subject: |
Re: Updates to the Sodalis Pro Infantia |
| From: |
Mater2Two@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:21:04 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-07 00:47:05 EST, you write:
<< Thank you for remembering our pets. Cassius and I
will send you a picture when we can manage to get four cats, two dogs and
a lizard to pose together... ;) >>
WOW!!!!! Um, I suppose I could take 2 different pictures (2 cats and a dog in
one and 2 cats a dog and a lizard in another). But only for you guys!!! LOL
Venators 3 cats will be on the site in the next couple of hours!! I
overhauled the page again. I couldn't find age specific information on kids,
so I divided it into boys and girls.
I think the only pages without ANY nformation on them are the Stories page and
the Citizenship page. If there were special rights or something involving
growing up and becoming a citizen I can't find any information on the web
about it.
Crys
|
| Subject: |
ICQ# |
| From: |
amethystcrystallight@--------) |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:50:40 -0600 |
|
Salvete --
I knew I forgot something. I have an ICQ# now so if anybody is
interested it's 25130121 The BeSeen chatroom overwhelms my poor
little harddrive with constantly refreshing so I won't be going in there
much anymore.
Fara Med Godanum! -- Crys and Terry and Lapis Stone (due late Feb.)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina and Primus Ivnia Terrelina
amethystcrystallight@-------- / mater2romani@--------
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at <a href="http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html" target="_top" >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html</a>
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
|
| Subject: |
Re: Auxiliary Citizenship |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:12:59 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-06 16:56:00 EST, you write:
<< On this issue, yes. But don't count your chickens just yet; you and I
have deep differences and are diametrically opposed when it comes to
the question of how far Nova Roma needs to go to accommodate people who
do not think just like you. Your unbending outlook on things like
religious requirements for citizenship and/or magistracies, translating
our founding documents for non-primarily-English-speakers, and other
matters close to my heart has placed a gulf between us that will
require a little bit more than a rope-bridge to cross. >>
Well...that wasn't a private e-mail so don't expect me to reply in private
either. This is totally out of left field. Sorry if my passion for
preserving the Pagan origins of this organization gets your goat (no pun
intended) or that you feel I'm some Nazi because I don't think the
constitution should be translated into several hundred languages and dialects.
If you're going to build that bridge, doll...please don't insult me.
<<<I am actually willing to make the effort to cross the chasm, if you are
willing to do the same. By all accounts you are a hard-working citizen
and a worthwhile person to get to know. But I do not respond well to
sexual humor, in-your-face paganism, or being told on almost every
issue that if I don't approach Nova Roma the same way you do, I need to
pack it up and go home. I'm sure you did not aim most of those
comments specifically at me. All the same, they are the chief obstacle
to my being able to feel completely welcome here.>>>
Have I ever stated I was not open to discussion or compromise? No...I don't
think so. Except of course the ability of magistrates to perform their sacred
duties with good concious when the need arises. I don't think that's much to
ask. Sorry you don't take well to sexual humor, but I don't make excuses for
who or what I am and don't apologize for it either. I've come out of too many
closets to let what other people feel or think about me to worry myself over.
And "in-you-face-Paganism"? Oh...ok...well, I'm Pagan...I'm Queer...I'm
Here...Get Use To It.
<<<Dex, you are entitled to your opinions and to the free expression
thereof. We can, I think, agree to disagree on many things while still
holding each other as fellow Romans-in-spirit. But this
love-it-or-leave-it, my-way-or-the-highway jingoism has got to stop. I
am probably one of the most incredibly tolerant members of my faith you
will ever encounter.
As are you entitled to your own opinions and free expression. But where do
you get this accusation of my being "love it or leave it...my way or the high
way". Have I ever gave the impression that I have all the answers? Have I
ever said that I alone know what's right for Nova Roma? Clearly not. If I
have strong opinions regarding the Religio and how it correlates to this
organization it is because that what was communicated to me by the FOUNDERS
when I became a citizen. Where ever the change of focus came from, I clearly
don't know.
<< If even *I* cannot find a home here, who have practiced the Via (if not the
Religio) solo for almost eight years, what hope is there for anyone who is not
actually a
Roman Pagan? And where do you suppose we're going to find enough of
those on the planet to run the whole show with no need for the rest of us?>>
Again...coming out of left field here! You and everyone else are most welcome
here. But I must ask that if being involved in a Roman Pagan organization
(let's not make any mistake that is what Nova Roma is...read the web page,
please) is going to cause anyone undue distress over spiritual committments,
then why are those people here? Again...I would not join the Mormon
Tabernacle Choir and then bitch and moan that I'm not being given my
representation as a Witch.
<<But on the associate memberships, I agree with you that, if we're going
to have them, it should not be up to the Censors to decide which type
of citizenship any of us gets. I am not one to turn down a good idea
or a useful thought just because of who it came from! Let this be a
start, then, to mending things between us. I would like to be your
friend, and for you to consider me likewise.>>
Well...I don't know if that was really an olive branch, but I like the way you
are thinking. It's good to have diverse ideas....it keeps the blood pumping.
I do consider you a friend (and hope you do I). Some of my best friends are
my worst enemies! Ha Ha Ha!
In love and light,
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Auxiliary Citizenship |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:14:08 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-06 18:07:04 EST, you write:
<< Can we not agree that "pagan" has nothing to do with Republican Rome. The
Religio Romana was not paganism, not Hellenism, not [whathaveyou] -- it
was the Religio Romana. Nobody was "pagan" until the Christians came
along and labeled everybody else with that. >>
Yes, but if you have such a slew of diverse religions as we do here in Nova
Roma, you must classify what the "state" religion is. As delegated by our
Founders, it is Roman Paganism.
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: The position of Tribune Plebis |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:16:36 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-06 18:07:48 EST, you write:
<< I suggest that we retain the title of the position for
tradition's sake and to distinguish it from other tribunes (such as
military tribunes), but allow it to be voted on by all citizens. >>
I can agree with that.
<<Do I not recall that there are some positions open only to patricians?
(Priesthoods?)
If we let the patricians into the "plebian tribune" positions, are we
going to let plebians into those other positions?>>
It is my understanding that priesthoods are open to all. If that is not the
case then I will agree that it should be. Patrician or Plebe, I thought we
were equal here.
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Auxiliary Citizenship |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:20:39 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-07 01:35:47 EST, you write:
<< My humblest apologies to Dexippus, and I hope this has not blown the
peace effort outta the water...(Pudding, anyone?)
>>
LOL...well bite your tongue when you read my reply! : )
Peace effort? Well, let's just say we should have a summit in Geneva or
someplace nice and tranquil! LOL
Pudding? I'll be there...with bells on!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Terminology ("Roman Pagan") |
| From: |
"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:47:48 -0800 (PST) |
|
>
> From: p-------- p--------@--------
>
> Fimbria brings up an interesting point: The practitioners of the
Religio
> Romana never called themselves "Pagans" and probably wouldn't have
> understood if you asked them what religion they belonged to. They
were
> Romans, and honored the Gods and Goddesses of Rome, and that was it.
>
> Today's practitioners often (but not always) refer to themselves as
Roman
> Pagans, because if you say your religion is "Roman" everyone assumes
you
> mean Roman Catholic.
I, personally, came to Paganism first and when I came across the
Religio Romana and started to practice it I called myself a Roman Pagan.
I visit a Pagan chatroom almost as much as our own Taverna (which some
people can testify to being a *lot*), and when I say I follow the
Religio Romana they haven't a clue what I mean, actually not many
understand Roman Paganism either, but there's more chance they'll
understand what I mean if I say that.
Noct'a
|
| Subject: |
Re: Terminology ("Roman Pagan") |
| From: |
Cheri Scotch CheriS@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:18:59 -0500 |
|
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Iulia [SMTP:iuliacaesaria@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 2:48 PM
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Terminology ("Roman Pagan")
>
> From: "A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
>
>
> I, personally, came to Paganism first and when I came across the
> Religio Romana and started to practice it I called myself a Roman Pagan.
> I visit a Pagan chatroom almost as much as our own Taverna (which some
> people can testify to being a *lot*), and when I say I follow the
> Religio Romana they haven't a clue what I mean, actually not many
> understand Roman Paganism either, but there's more chance they'll
> understand what I mean if I say that.
>
Here's your chance to educate. Most "pagans" don't know a damned
thing about paganism. Not before Gerald Gardner anyway,and they barely know
who HE is. They know Celtic -- or think they do -- because all the Llewellyn
books talk about it and it's just so trendy and everyone knows you can't be
a witch unless you're Celtic (read: Irish -- they stop there.) They might
admit that, OK, Asatru exists. Somewhere. They have this friend who thinks
that Thor Rules. And some of them might have seen part of "I,Claudius" while
surfing towards the Fox network to watch "Charmed."
But to them, pagan is heathen and heathen is Irish Celtic.
Greek, Roman, Etruscan....the reaction is usually "duh". Although
they might know about something called Sumerian because the Necronomicon is,
like, so cool.
If I sound disgruntled it's because I just finished an interview in
which the interviewer asked me if I believe in witches. I said no, but I DO
believe in the Medusa, which kind of put an end to a wasted hour of clueless
questions. She also asked me how I could practice paganism because none of
it was ever written down, so didn't we have to make it all up?
Where's Homer, Virgil, Cicero, et al when you need 'em?
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Terminology ("Roman Pagan") |
| From: |
dean6886@--------) |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:59:32 -0600 (CST) |
|
That is so very true that the majority of people don't have a clue
in the world as to what Roman Paganism really is. Even in school I
believe they just say something to the effect of well- "the Romans just
adopted Greek deities and called them by different names" or something
to that effect and then add that animals were killed in sacrifices or
some other obscure reference and that's about it. Unless someone happens
to take a more specialized college class on the ancient Romans and
particularly religion or have enough interest in Roman civilization and
culture to read on their own, one would never really know what it's all
about.
In time maybe a few pamphelets and even a book or two published by Nova
Roma would be in order. Just something that would express the feel of
Religio Romana- the Lares, Penates, the Roman holidays and how they were
changed often by the Catholic church into different meanings while
retaining pagan customs, the concepts of augury and other forms of
divination, oracles, differences between public and private religious
practice, wedding and funeral customs, oaths, rituals both ancient and
reinvented, on Sybil, the role of priesthoods, etc. etc. etc.
Granted such a project might not be underway for quite some time and any
such thing would require the full endorsement of the pontiffs. Our own
websight is even rather vague about all this to the general public and I
can understand why so many people would find difficulty understanding
the Religio Romana. It is also important to emphasize in any
publications the universal adaptability of the Religio Romana and its
ability to cross cultures in an evolutionary way especially in modern
times and concerning private family rituals. The
difference in private and public religion is a very important point too.
Though the public religion has nothing to do with let's say Wicca there
can be a great deal of adaptability for members of the Wiccan community
or any other religious community to mix and match in private religious
worship. Just
something to think about,
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Auxiliary Citizenship |
| From: |
"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:59:22 -0800 (PST) |
|
---
> Yes, but if you have such a slew of diverse religions as we do here
in Nova
> Roma, you must classify what the "state" religion is. As delegated
by our
> Founders, it is Roman Paganism.
>
> --Dexippus
This is true!!
This is a section of the Declaratio Religionis Romanae
“We hold that a Roman Pagan may be defined as a person who actively
performs rites, rituals, and/or prayers to any or all of the gods and
goddesses of ancient Pagan Rome as the majority of their spiritual
involvement. We acknowledge also that individuals may at times work
with Roman deities without considering themselves as Roman Pagans.”
Noct'a
A Roman Pagan!
|
| Subject: |
Religio Romana |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:04:44 -0500 |
|
Salvete Dexippe et alii
Actually, 'Religio Romana' is left as is, untranslated, as the name of the
state religion in several places on the website. Why not stick with that
term? Noone calls catholicism 'Religio Romana'; they may confuse 'Roman
religion' with catholicism, but that's a different matter.
>
>Yes, but if you have such a slew of diverse religions as we do here in Nova
>Roma, you must classify what the "state" religion is. As delegated by our
>Founders, it is Roman Paganism.
>
>--Dexippus
>
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Patrician-only priesthoods was The position of Tribune Plebis |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:59:41 -0500 |
|
Salvete Dexippe et alii
>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In a message dated 98-12-06 18:07:48 EST, you write:
>
>
><<Do I not recall that there are some positions open only to patricians?
>(Priesthoods?)
>If we let the patricians into the "plebian tribune" positions, are we
>going to let plebians into those other positions?>>
>
>It is my understanding that priesthoods are open to all. If that is not
the
>case then I will agree that it should be. Patrician or Plebe, I thought we
>were equal here.
>
The Rex and Regina Sacrorum have to be patrician. I think that there is one
other position like this but I cannot find it now.
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Terminology ("Roman Pagan") |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" amg@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:13:51 -0000 |
|
Salvete!
>The
>difference in private and public religion is a very important point too.
In this aspect, things are not as easy. While we can consider the main Roman
pantheon to be official, as well as state religions such as the Sol
Invictus, things are more complex when we move to the Mystery Religions.
Here there was more commitment, and we can identify that feeling we call
'faith'. Mystery Religions were more like Christianism... The only
difference being that they accepted the worship of other deities as equally
valid.
Valete!
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)
-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Troy dean6886@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Monday, December 07, 1998 9:00 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Terminology ("Roman Pagan")
From: dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)
That is so very true that the majority of people don't have a clue
in the world as to what Roman Paganism really is. Even in school I
believe they just say something to the effect of well- "the Romans just
adopted Greek deities and called them by different names" or something
to that effect and then add that animals were killed in sacrifices or
some other obscure reference and that's about it. Unless someone happens
to take a more specialized college class on the ancient Romans and
particularly religion or have enough interest in Roman civilization and
culture to read on their own, one would never really know what it's all
about.
In time maybe a few pamphelets and even a book or two published by Nova
Roma would be in order. Just something that would express the feel of
Religio Romana- the Lares, Penates, the Roman holidays and how they were
changed often by the Catholic church into different meanings while
retaining pagan customs, the concepts of augury and other forms of
divination, oracles, differences between public and private religious
practice, wedding and funeral customs, oaths, rituals both ancient and
reinvented, on Sybil, the role of priesthoods, etc. etc. etc.
Granted such a project might not be underway for quite some time and any
such thing would require the full endorsement of the pontiffs. Our own
websight is even rather vague about all this to the general public and I
can understand why so many people would find difficulty understanding
the Religio Romana. It is also important to emphasize in any
publications the universal adaptability of the Religio Romana and its
ability to cross cultures in an evolutionary way especially in modern
times and concerning private family rituals. The
difference in private and public religion is a very important point too.
Though the public religion has nothing to do with let's say Wicca there
can be a great deal of adaptability for members of the Wiccan community
or any other religious community to mix and match in private religious
worship. Just
something to think about,
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
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|
| Subject: |
Re: Terminology ("Roman Pagan") |
| From: |
Cheri Scotch CheriS@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:14:43 -0500 |
|
> From: dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)
>
> That is so very true that the majority of people don't have a clue
> in the world as to what Roman Paganism really is.
>
>
True. But people who are blithely and insistently calling themselves
"Pagan" should -- at the very least-- have some idea of what it is.
grumble,grouse, gripe.....
Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Books |
| From: |
Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:48:51 -0500 |
|
Salvete omnes!
I just came across two books which people may find interesting (& might be
added to the bookstore)
Jo-Ann Shelton, "As the Romans Did: A Soucebook for Roman Social History",
2nd ed, Oxford, OUP, 1998 ISBN 0-19-508974-X (paperback; L.Stg 9.99)
is as its name suggests a collection of translations of sources,
with explanations. Chapters include ... 2. Family life (including Fathers,
Mothers, fertility & birth, raising children ...) ... 5. Domestic &
Personal concerns (including meals, ... illness, death...) ... 10.
Government & Politics (enough of that!:)) 11. The Roman Army ... 13. Women
in Roman Society... 15. Religion & Philosophy
Mary Beard, John North & Simon Price, "Religions of Rome", 2 vols,
Cambridge, CUP, 1998, ISBNs 0-521-31682-0 and 0-521-45646-0 (paperbacks:
L.Stg. 15.95 each)
Title is self-explanatory. Vol I is a history from early Rome down
to the Christian emperors (the last chapter). Vol 2 is a sourcebook with
lots of pics & including calendar, religious places, festivals &
ceremonies, sacrifices, divination...
Vale,
M.Mucius Scaevola Magister
|
| Subject: |
What Shoud I do??? |
| From: |
"Márcio Oliveira" marcio-oliveira@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:22:14 -0200 |
|
To anybody that can answer me:
I'm Severo Tracius, from Brazil and I can to this nation a few days ago.
I'm completely lost and I wanna know how can I help the improvement of
this nation and how can I work here.
Thanks for Attention
Severo Tracius Primus
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13:03:27 1998
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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Terminology ("Roman Pagan")
From: Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Iulia [SMTP:iuliacaesaria@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 2:48 PM
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Terminology ("Roman Pagan")
>
> From: "A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
>
>
> I, personally, came to Paganism first and when I came across the
> Religio Romana and started to practice it I called myself a Roman
Pagan.
> I visit a Pagan chatroom almost as much as our own Taverna (which some
> people can testify to being a *lot*), and when I say I follow the
> Religio Romana they haven't a clue what I mean, actually not many
> understand Roman Paganism either, but there's more chance they'll
> understand what I mean if I say that.
>
Here's your chance to educate. Most "pagans" don't know a damned
thing about paganism. Not before Gerald Gardner anyway,and they barely
know
who HE is. They know Celtic -- or think they do -- because all the
Llewellyn
books talk about it and it's just so trendy and everyone knows you can't
be
a witch unless you're Celtic (read: Irish -- they stop there.) They
might
admit that, OK, Asatru exists. Somewhere. They have this friend who
thinks
that Thor Rules. And some of them might have seen part of "I,Claudius"
while
surfing towards the Fox network to watch "Charmed."
But to them, pagan is heathen and heathen is Irish Celtic.
Greek, Roman, Etruscan....the reaction is usually "duh". Although
they might know about something called Sumerian because the Necronomicon
is,
like, so cool.
If I sound disgruntled it's because I just finished an interview in
which the interviewer asked me if I believe in witches. I said no, but I
DO
believe in the Medusa, which kind of put an end to a wasted hour of
clueless
questions. She also asked me how I could practice paganism because none
of
it was ever written down, so didn't we have to make it all up?
Where's Homer, Virgil, Cicero, et al when you need 'em?
-- Flavia Claudia
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I have to add my commiserations to Flavia Claudia's gripes. I am a Pagan
myslf far outside of the Religio, which being a syncrestic person i
added into my religion. My own path is very Dianic, but I run across
many people who know diddly about Diana Herself or any other Goddess
except maybe Brighid. I've been researching the old orders of Diana and
Iuno to help establish their rites for NovaRoma and maybe one day when I
have a real life again I will be finished.
Vale
L. Iunia Cypria
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