Subject:	Vacation time (yippee!)
From:	Claudia Aprica quinta_claudia_lucentia_aprica@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:11:19 +1100 (EST)

Salvete, cives!
Today is the last day of my term here at Oxford, and I will be
going home for Saturnalia tomorrow. Because all my internet and e-mail
access is based here at the University, I won't be able to get access
to any of it until January 6th (or thereabouts), when I return. I just
wanted to let everyone konw that, in case anyone is wondering why they
can't get hold of me over the next three weeks. Any e-mails which are
sent to me over that time, however, I will reply to just as soon as I
get back
Before I go, I also want to remind all European citizens that the
post of European distributor of the Eagle is still up for grabs.
Although I have made arrangements with my cousin, Flavia Claudia, to
send out the December Eagle (so subscribers don't need to worry about
missing out!), I do want to lay down this post as soon as possible.
Although it's not a directly political post in itself, it's a good way
of making a positive contribution to Nova Roma, and might also make
whoever holds it more attractive in the eyes of the electorate, should
they hope to go on to a political career! If anyone is interested in
this post, please leave me an e-mail, and I'll get back to you when I
return to Oxford.
Meanwhile, may I wish everyone a happy Saturnalia, and I will
look forward to hearing how the elections went when I return!
Valete,
Q. Claudia Lucentia Aprica.




==
**********************************************************************
Drop in on my gens - <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133</a>
**********************************************************************

Subject:	Re: Latin phrases for modern life (mildly humorous)
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:06:03 +0000

jane wrote:
>
> From: -------- p--------@--------
>
> This was forwarded by a friend, and was probably compiled from a number
> of published sources. I'm not expert enough to vouch for the Latin, but
> some of them are cute - Patricia
>
> > Die dulci fruere.
> > Have a nice day.
> >
> > Mihi ignosce. Cum homine de cane debeo congredi.
> > Excuse me. I've got to see a man about a dog.

I thought my Father-in-law was the only one who used this phrase! This
list must come from Great Britain. This is what a polite gentleman says
at a cocktail party when he needs the "Cloakroom". (in other words..the
John!)

Pythia

Subject:	Re: Latin phrases for modern life (mildly humorous)
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:20:25 -0600 (CST)

Salvete, omnes...

I can't let this continue. The entire list was lifted, intact, from
Henry Beard's _Latin for All Occasions (Latinum pro Occasionibus
Omnibus)_ and _Latin for Even More Occasions (Latinum pro Multibus
Plurimus Occasionibus)_, two wonderful and whacky (and still in-print!)
compilations of Dr. Beard's original translations (into Latin) of
common modern phrases.

Mine are at work--if anyone is interested in Occupational Latin,
Computational Latin, Recreational Latin, Sports-Fanatical Latin, an
all-purpose Latin oration, and/or an all-purpose translation of a Latin
inscription, these two books are the place to go, and I'll be more than
happy to provide publication data on request.

If I sound a little touchy it's because I recently saw an entire Web
site that was nothing but a rip-off of these two books--unattributed,
of course!

Minding the copyright statutes...
---
__________ _<~) __________
<-\\\\@@@@@) /##\ (@@@@@////-> Märia Villarroel legion6@--------
<-\\\@@@@(#####@@@@///-> Historical Re-Creationist
<-\\\*##*///-> and Citizen of Rome
o---<<<<||SPQR||>>>>---o Latin lessons, History lectures
///\\\ Role-playing Games, too!

aka Lucius Marius Fimbria on the weekends

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:26:21 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 00:17:50 EST, you write:

<< But so is "Christian" (are you Catholic, Protestant, Born-
Again, etc.). >>
Salve
I was never a Christian. I was a Catholic. We fought a war over that. It
was called the 30 years War. Catholics lost. So be it. Now I'm a Roman. I
worship the early Gods of Rome. You grow.
Vale
Q Fabius

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:43:54 -0500

Salvete Luci Sergi et Damiane Luciane et alii

Dexippus replied to me-
>
>>The term "Pagan" identifies who we are. Just as "Christian", "Muslim",
>>"Jew",
>>"Gay", whatever else...identifies a person. And while I agree that labels
>>should matter nothing, we (society) tends to rely on them.
>>
>>
>>--Dexippus


To which Australicus replied->
>That's part of the problem -- "pagan" DOESN'T identify who we are. It
>lumps us together with all sorts of vastly different groups who have in
>common ONLY that they are not Christian. "Roman" identifies who we are --
>"pagan" only identifies who we AREN'T.
>
>
This is true. I neither have a desire, nor see a justification, to identify
myself and other Nova Romans as "non-something", which is what "pagan" is in
the way that you apply it, Dexippe.

I hope to learn Religio Romana here in Nova Roma, and I support it as the
source of unity for us. I therefore sincerely hope that noone misconstrues
what I am saying as anti-Religio Romana -- it is not the case!

I think that terms "Roman pagan", and more so "pagan Roman" do have utility:
when discussing history, the latter term is useful to distinguish those
periods in which polytheism were prevalent from the later imperial times,
when to be anything but Christian could be dangerous to one's health. The
dichotomy "christian vs. non-christian", in my view, makes sense in that
sort of context. (It is still a simplistic dichotomy that may occasionally
create false impressions, as an example of which, it is naive to believe
that noone practiced Religio Romana under Theodosius)

But here in Nova Roma, we are trying to build something -- a new society
which takes the best elements of the Roman Republic and makes them live
again. I cannot see the sense in declaring this effort to be
"non-christian" or "non-islamic"; why not identify ourselves and each other
as what we are instead of dwelling on what we are not?

In addition, there are christians in Nova Roma; and at least one Muslim I
think; and at least one Jew. What sense is there in using "pagan" to
describe Nova Roma in light of this?

Again, this is not an attack on Religio Romana, and it most certainly is not
an attempt to water it down.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:19:59 -0500

Salvete Audens et alii

You wrote-


I think that Dexhas a good point. While modern labels shoud not mean
anything to us, they really do

I reply -

Of course we all know the labels and many of their connotations. If a label
is really accurate, it may make sense to use it in those contexts in which
it retains its validity.

Your words:
if we choose to begin to educate the
general public around us. We have mentioned several places on the
onelist that we (Nova Roma) should begin to try to be more involved with
the world outside Nova Roma, and begin an education program for the
"other worlders". We have made a begining with Crys' Roman Chilren Web
Page and Venator's proposed work with wine, recipes, and all is sure to
be interesting to outsiders as well.

I say-
Yes, I am happy that we are off to a good start. I do not think, however,
that part of our education efforts should be to declare that we are Roman
pagans. I submit the following reasons:

1. It has yet to be demonstrated that the term "Roman pagan" has any
validity contemporarily, the definition on our official website
notwithstanding.
2. Such a declaration does not actually educate anyone about Rome, not even
about the Gods of Rome.

Your words:

So, if you would educate someone, in the adult world, you should have
some idea about what his / her words or terms mean to them, before you
can correct the thought in their mind. I think, at least o the basis of

I reply:
I think that I have a pretty good handle on the English Language, including
stereotypes and labels in common use in the USA. I do not know every single
one, of course, just as noone else does...

-----Your valuable further thoughts deleted for space---

Now don't get upset with my words, as they are only revealing what a
person entering your world for the first time perceived even though he


I conclude-
I promise that I shall do my best to keep my cool, Audens, and I must say,
your eloquence and respect for reason provide me with an example to follow.
I hope that noone will take offense to my expression of my own opinions,
after all, that is all that they are.

Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Military Tribune

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Latin phrases for modern life (mildly humorous)
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:27:10 -0500 (EST)

Please provide the publication data

Marcus Municius Audens
Military Tribune

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Terms and Sterotypes
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:12:06 EST

Salvete --

It almost looks like we are headed for another lovely religious debate (oh
goody).

If Nova Roma is supposed to be a Roman Pagan, Pagan, People who follow/worship
the Gods of Rome (WHATEVER) group, then what is the problem? The Christians
who don't like anything but Christianity will consider us 'Pagan' regardless
of what we say or try to teach them. Education is the key, but it gets tiring
beating your head against a brick schoolhouse.

Yup, 'Pagan' is a sterotype, as are all the other terms, among them 'Jew',
'Christian' (my aunt is Roman Catholic and considers herself "Christian'), and
some others I will not list here for fear of insulting the oversensitive
(although the term 'The Man' comes to my own mind, which lumps damn near
everybody together, male and female).

So far no one has insulted me by simply being a....hmmmm....'Non worshiper of
the Ancient Roman Gods' (that term probably isn't safe either). I cannot
think of any other 'religious' organization where members of all religions are
welcomed as are the citizens of Nova Roma.

I am no expert, but didn't the 'Worshipers of the Ancient Roman Gods' become
'Christian' because it seemed like the healthiest idea at the time? If Sulla
( sorry hon, your the only NR I know for a fact is Jewish) comes to my house
and puts a 30-ought-6 under my chin and strongly suggests I may want to become
Jewish -- guess what??????? Shalom!!!!!!! At least I'll make HIM believe
it!!!! It's safer. Basically history demonstrates that when 'Christians'
began....um....converting people, they were seriously 'My way or the Highway'
about it. You either worshiped what they wanted or you died. Heck, they
still do it today.

Do I want to take Sulla and Audens (for example...again...sorry guys) out back
and beat them into conversion? NO!! I really don't care what they believe
in, I like em! Do I think Dex should give up the Wicca he has tacked on to
his 'Religio' or that Venator should give up the 'Asatru' part of him? Again
no (and sorry, guys)!!! And *I* am not giving up Norse Rune reading for
anybody...so there!

Sterotypes are a bitch (I know first hand) and I live for blowing them out of
the water (as anyone who speaks to me, then sees me will attest. I am afraid
I just don't fit the sterotype for my race...sigh...I'm sooooo
disssapointed...NOT). However, they are with us and may be with us to stay (I
lost the fight to have race removed from Terrys birth certificate and may lose
the fight with Lapis too -- granted, they are black, but they are also
'Indian', 'White', 'German', 'Polish' and 'Jewish').

So, unless we call ourselves something that tells what sort of 'religious'
organization this is (unless it isn't a religious organization again/anymore
in which case, I give up cause this is getting annoying) without confusing
people as to the funky 'Pagan'/'Christian' mix we have then we should just
leave it alone, accept and move on. PLEASE!!!!!!

BTW...I cannot access Juno right now (long story) so if ya want to yell at me
privately, yell into this mailbox cause the other one is closed for the
moment.


Crys

Subject:	Re: Religion & S&M
From:	Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:27:03 -0500

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M--------2Two@-------- [SMTP:M--------2Two@--------]
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 1:12 PM
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: [novaroma] Terms and Sterotypes
>
> From: M--------2Two@--------
>
> Salvete --
>
> It almost looks like we are headed for another lovely religious debate (oh
> goody).
>
Gods preserve us!

> Do I want to take Sulla and Audens (for example...again...sorry guys) out
> back
> and beat them into conversion?
>
I DO,I DO, I DO!!! I don't care about religious conversion...I just
think tying 'em up would be fun.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:45:40 EST

Salvete --

A wierd subject for a post perhaps, but bear with me. I was remembering this
story and thought some of you might like it. But just in case, let us first
find our delete keys....ready?

All this talk about labeling and what a 'Roman Pagan' is and all that gunk got
me to thinking about my experience with a poor, befuddled girl who really
didn't know any better................

I went to a therapudic boarding school in the Berkshire Hills (MA). I was
one, of maybe 10 black students in the whole school. There was this girl
(white) with some pretty serious brain damage or something going on. Her name
was Caroline. She would, every single time she saw one of the black students,
call out "Nigger" in sort of a sing song (remember, she wasn't right...and
apparently her parents weren't either, as she picked that word up somewhere).
Yours truly was the only black student with the temper control to think of a
way to deal with Caroline, maybe even get her to stop the namecalling and
putting her very life in jeapordy.

So one day when she saw me and called me "Nigger", I threw myself on the
ground at her feet, threw my arms around her leggs and in my worst 'stupid
slave' voice said, "Miz Ca'line!! Miz Ca'line!! Oh, Please don beet me Miz
Ca'line!". She was stunned! She didn't know what to do. Everytime after
that I would say to her "Howz u doin Miz Ca'line?" and go into my act. I
kept this up until the day I left the school.

She asked me why I did that, and I told her that if she didn't like my doing
it, she should stop calling me and the others "Nigger" ("Why, Miz
Ca'line...you don wan me a talkin like this, you don be a callin US dem bad
names you be callin us!"). And she actually managed to cut it out some (she
was really to far gone to stop....she was pretty sad) and the staff and other
black students understood what I was doing, so I didn't get ridden too much
about demeaning myself in front of Caroline. Besides, it was effective.

The end. If it didn't educate, I sure hope my little story entertained.

Crys

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:01:09 -0500

Salvete omnes,

Actually I think "Roman Pagan" works OK, because

a) there wasn't really a collective name for the Roman state cults other
than "religio" as opposed to the "superstitio" (of Christians, magicians,
etc) until it became necessary to distinguish those who worshipped the old
gods from the new monotheism. "Gentile" is used in one source I have seen
quoted, but "pagan" is the one that stuck. Anyhow, many if not most writers
on Rome use the expression "pagan" for the old polytheistic religion, so
anyone who knows anything about Rome is likely to recognise this meaning.
It has also been recently argued that "paganus" meant "a worshipper
of the local gods" (of the pagus, in modern terms county) rather than being
derogatory ("a country bumpkin"): Ronald Hutton, "The Pagan Religions of
the Ancient British Isles" (pbk ed., Oxford, Blackwell, 1993), preface to
the paperback edition at xiv, citing P. Chuvin, "A Chronicle of the Last
Pagans", transl. J. Raffan, Cambridge, Mass., 1990, 7-9, and Robin Lane
Fox, "Pagans and Christians", London, 1986 (no page ref).

b) "pagan" certainly originally refers to OUR gods, as opposed to "heathen"
or its antecedents which, having been lifted from the OT, was applied to
Anglo-Saxon gods. It is therefore not merely negative ("non-Christian" or
"non-monotheistic"). I don't see why we should allow possible confusion
with modern sub-Gardnerian versions to stop us using a term which
originally referred fairly specifically to classical Graeco-Roman religion.

Valete,
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:16:55 -0500 (EST)

Salve Gaius Marius Merullus

I always enjoy your messages because of your obvious organization and
well thought arguments. In this case, my friend I beleve that we are on
the same side, and merely discussing the point from a different angle.

I don't think that we should succumb to any label that is fixed upon us
by another entity / society any more than you do. One of my points,
which I obviously did not make well, was that in educating the public
one must be aware of the way that they look upon such as we, and the
words / labels that they will / may utilize in the description of our
Religio Romana

The term "Roman Pagan" is as you say a term which has no contemporary
validity "except in the minds of those who have already determined that
meaning for themselves" (in ignorance perhaps and most likely) but it
still remains in their usage. In order to educate them, you must first
know what the terms mean to them and then logically shake the foundation
of the term within their own minds. Just telling them won't do it. It
is kind of like most supervisors, if you approach them (in general) with
a new idea, it must be carefully considered because it is not his / her
idea. But if you can convince the supervisor that it is his / her idea,
the proposal has a much better chance to be successful. In the same
way, the public must be appoached with the idea of educating them.

My earlier comments did not doubt that your grasp of English was
anything but complete. My comment was directed at the great American
public. Now remember, I am in this place as a learner. I hope in the
fullness of time to be able to offer some wisdom in the areas of the
Roman World where I have some small experience, but that is not the area
of religious belief. In this area I am a tyro and very much the
student. My earlier comments and those above relate to dealing with the
public initially on their terms and in the final issue on our terms to
correct an obvious misconception. I will "open my head" so to speak to
your and the many others, who have something to teach me about this
facinating idea about the worship of the Gods of Rome (Religio Romana)
and all of it's aspects. In a very small way I have already delved into
the worship of Mithras and have found a facinating parallel with the
Christain beliefs that cannot be ignored.

In closing, my friend, I am looking forward to this adventure in
submerging myself in the culture of Nova Roma, and in the anticipation
of at some time in the future being able to bring the light of
understanding to the eyes of a single person, whose misunderstanding has
limited his / her view of our world.

Marcus Municius Audens
Militar Tribune

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Terms and Sterotypes
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:23:35 -0500

Salvete Crystallina et alii




>From: M--------2Two@--------
>
>It almost looks like we are headed for another lovely religious debate (oh
>goody).

I share your enthusiasm :). I love debate. If it's political, I'll take
it, if it's religious, I'll take it.

>
>If Nova Roma is supposed to be a Roman Pagan, Pagan, People who
follow/worship
>the Gods of Rome (WHATEVER) group, then what is the problem?

No problem as far as I can tell, just a difference of opinion. Some of us
are of the opinion that Nova Roma should be described as "Roman pagan";
some of us are of the opinion that it should not be so described. We are
debating presumably to try to prove the merits of our position.

The Christians
>who don't like anything but Christianity will consider us 'Pagan'
regardless
>of what we say or try to teach them.

You may be right about that. As far as I understand, it was that type of
Christian, that is, the intolerant kind, that invented the term 'Pagan' to
refer to people following other religions in and around the Empire. To me,
accepting the term 'Pagan' as a blanket term to describe non-christian (or,
the expanded contemporary U.S. meaning, non-mainstream monotheistic) is to
acquiesce to that intolerance. If, however, someone means something
specific when they say 'Pagan', that is different: perhaps you could
enlighten me?

Education is the key, but it gets tiring
>beating your head against a brick schoolhouse.


Yes it does, but at least the headache provides reassurance of one's
existence.

>
>Yup, 'Pagan' is a sterotype, as are all the other terms, among them 'Jew',
>'Christian' (my aunt is Roman Catholic and considers herself "Christian'),

I disagree that 'Christian' or 'Jew' are stereotypes. They are lables, to
which some positive and negative stereotypes have been attached.
Furthermore, I can recognize both of those as valid labels, because I know
Christians and Jews and understand basically the religions and history
represented by the two groups. I suffer from ignorance, however, as to what
'Pagans' are, except 'non-x's', where 'x' is christian, jew, etc.

>
>I am no expert, but didn't the 'Worshipers of the Ancient Roman Gods'
become
>'Christian' because it seemed like the healthiest idea at the time? If
Sulla

To be sure, many converted out of faith. Look at the tragic tale of the
Empire; so many people suffered under the Severans and militaristic
emperors that a religion promising life after death, and denying the
importance of the events of this world, must have looked very appealing.

>( sorry hon, your the only NR I know for a fact is Jewish) comes to my
house
>and puts a 30-ought-6 under my chin and strongly suggests I may want to
become
>Jewish -- guess what??????? Shalom!!!!!!! At least I'll make HIM believe
>it!!!! It's safer. Basically history demonstrates that when 'Christians'
>began....um....converting people, they were seriously 'My way or the
Highway'
>about it. You either worshiped what they wanted or you died. Heck, they
>still do it today.

And yes, coercion was involved. Although, let us not forget that coercion
was employed to keep people away from Christanity as well (notably under
Diocletian).
>

>
>Sterotypes are a bitch (I know first hand) and I live for blowing them out
of
>the water (as anyone who speaks to me, then sees me will attest. I am
afraid
>I just don't fit the sterotype for my race...sigh...I'm sooooo
>disssapointed...NOT). However, they are with us and may be with us to stay
(I
>lost the fight to have race removed from Terrys birth certificate and may
lose
>the fight with Lapis too -- granted, they are black, but they are also
>'Indian', 'White', 'German', 'Polish' and 'Jewish').

Yes, I have no doubt that stereotypes are with humanity for the long haul.
If you think Americans overapply them, I'd like to introduce you to some of
my Russian and Kazakh friends. (Oh no! I just stereotyped Russians and
Kazakhs!:))
>
>So, unless we call ourselves something that tells what sort of 'religious'
>organization this is (unless it isn't a religious organization
again/anymore
>in which case, I give up cause this is getting annoying) without confusing
>people as to the funky 'Pagan'/'Christian' mix we have then we should just
>leave it alone, accept and move on. PLEASE!!!!!!

I disagree that we should leave it alone. I have opinions, you have
opinions, let us share from them and learn from each other. As Dexippus
quotes R. King, "Cant we all just get along?" If we really want to get
along, and, even better, befriend and support each other in earnest, we
should have enough faith in each other to hear each other out.
>
>BTW...I cannot access Juno right now (long story) so if ya want to yell at
me
>privately, yell into this mailbox cause the other one is closed for the
>moment.
>
I am yelling at your aol account as instructed :).

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:29:46 -0500

Salvete Crystallina et alii

Good for you. It would have been easier to think of an equally insulting
name and yell it back at her, or even easier than that to feign indifference
and then malign her later; instead you did somethning exceptionally brave
and creative, and, at least to some extent, it worked. Te et tuam rem
gestam laudo - I praise you and your deed.
>
>She asked me why I did that, and I told her that if she didn't like my
doing
>it, she should stop calling me and the others "Nigger" ("Why, Miz
>Ca'line...you don wan me a talkin like this, you don be a callin US dem bad
>names you be callin us!"). And she actually managed to cut it out some
(she
>was really to far gone to stop....she was pretty sad) and the staff and
other
>black students understood what I was doing, so I didn't get ridden too much
>about demeaning myself in front of Caroline. Besides, it was effective.
>
>The end. If it didn't educate, I sure hope my little story entertained.
>
It did both. Thank you for sharing that.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:59:01 -0500

Salvete Scaevola et alii



>From: Mike Ma--------r MikeMa--------r@--------
>
>Salvete omnes,
>
>Actually I think "Roman Pagan" works OK, because
>
>a) there wasn't really a collective name for the Roman state cults other
>than "religio" as opposed to the "superstitio" (of Christians, magicians,
>etc) until it became necessary to distinguish those who worshipped the old
>gods from the new monotheism. "Gentile" is used in one source I have seen
>quoted, but "pagan" is the one that stuck. Anyhow, many if not most writers
>on Rome use the expression "pagan" for the old polytheistic religion, so
>anyone who knows anything about Rome is likely to recognise this meaning.

Yes, the term certainly has utility in distinguishing among periods and
groups in historical contexts. But, I do not see how this can be applied to
Nova Roma. We do not exist in a context wherein we require a label to
identify us as non-Christian, or non-monotheistic.

> It has also been recently argued that "paganus" meant "a worshipper
>of the local gods" (of the pagus, in modern terms county) rather than being
>derogatory ("a country bumpkin"): Ronald Hutton, "The Pagan Religions of
>the Ancient British Isles" (pbk ed., Oxford, Blackwell, 1993), preface to
>the paperback edition at xiv, citing P. Chuvin, "A Chronicle of the Last
>Pagans", transl. J. Raffan, Cambridge, Mass., 1990, 7-9, and Robin Lane
>Fox, "Pagans and Christians", London, 1986 (no page ref).

Thank you for this background.
>
>b) "pagan" certainly originally refers to OUR gods, as opposed to "heathen"
>or its antecedents which, having been lifted from the OT, was applied to
>Anglo-Saxon gods. It is therefore not merely negative ("non-Christian" or
>"non-monotheistic"). I don't see why we should allow possible confusion
>with modern sub-Gardnerian versions to stop us using a term which
>originally referred fairly specifically to classical Graeco-Roman religion.

You have presented a very coherent body of arguments on the origin and origi
nal meaning of "pagan", for which I am grateful. The reason that I believe
that perhaps we should not keep the label (who is Gardner?) is because the
word, based on what I have heard so far, has no contemporary meaning, other
than the negative. I believe that its contemporary connotation (albeit a
corruption of the word's original meaning) is exactly that, "non-Christian".
People in the U.S. at least use it practically interchangeably with
"heathen".

Now, some of the arguments against my position so far have been basically
"you cannot change the minds of the mainstream...people use labels, so we
are stuck with them." To an extent, this is true. And, I shall agree by
pointing out that I am basing my position on the labels and stereotypes
attached to them in contemporary English in my experience. I do not want to
call Nova Roma "Roman pagan" because I do not want to use a term to refer to
myself, to you, and to everyone else here that, along with "heathen", has
been made into an insult in contemporary English. I have nothing against
people who practice the multitude of non-monotheistic religions; how can I
when I am not a monotheist myself? In fact, the very opposite is the case;
I don't want to use a negative word to describe these people or myself.

Let us compare my understandings of the words "pagan" to "christian" or
"jew", as they are used in contemporary English in my experience, to see
part of the problem.

christian = worshipper of Christ (son of God, derived from Yahweh, see
"Jew")
Jew = worshipper of Yahweh
pagan = worshipper of ... the norse pantheon, the Hellenic pantheon,
Egyptian gods, Sumerian gods, Religio Romana, Wicca, insert another religion
here, insert another religion there

I submit that in contemporary usage, "pagan" is not descriptive of anything;
it is the negation of mainstream monotheism. To use this term to describe
Nova Roma seems to be a statement against mainstream monotheism, rather than
a statement for the Gods and Goddesses of Rome.

>
>Valete,
>M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
>
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Religion & S&M
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:25:27 -0500 (EST)

My Dear Flavia Claudia;

I think being tied up by you would be fun tooooooo! I t beats the hell
out of a Pudding bath (even with Raspberry Sauce).

You should not get so excited about these kinds of things, as losing
control is the first step toward............... Wow how did we get on
that subject!!!!!

Sorry, if I hurt anyone's feelings but this "debate" was just a
discussion about "educating the masses" and some of the ways to do it
that I have found to be effective in 14 years of explaining that "this
red coat is not Confederate M'aam it is a British Rev. War Uniform!!!"

Gee, we didn't even call each other any names either!!

Marcus Minucius Audens
Military Tribune
(Religio Romana beginner and student)

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	final definition of pagan
From:	Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:34:54 -0500

The last word on this subject is at The Dilbert Zone website's List of the
Day. Today's list is 233 ways to tell that your co-workers are disgruntled.

Reason #30 is: "They've placed all their computers in a pile, set them on
fire, and are doing a pagan naked dance around the blaze."

So there you are.We're happy nekkid dancers.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:42:28 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 11:29:36 EST, you write:

<< 1. It has yet to be demonstrated that the term "Roman pagan" has any
validity contemporarily, >>

But any word you choose will most likely have no contemporary validity. What
is Religio? Haven't heard that word in the cafe lately.

--Dexippus : )

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:40:18 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 11:28:55 EST, you write:

<< In addition, there are christians in Nova Roma; and at least one Muslim I
think; and at least one Jew. What sense is there in using "pagan" to
describe Nova Roma in light of this?
>>

Well...because Nova Roma is a Roman Pagan Organization. We can debate this
until the Moon falls from the sky, but that is what it was conceived to be and
that is what it is. We welcome all faiths to join us in our love of Rome but
our focus is fundamentally on the Religio Romana. "Nova Roma: Dedicated to
the Restoration of Classical Roman Religion, Culture, and Virtues" -- NR
homepage


<<I neither have a desire, nor see a justification, to identify
myself and other Nova Romans as "non-something", which is what "pagan" is in
the way that you apply it, Dexippe.>>

You can choose not to call yourself "pagan" if you please. But when you are
speaking to someone who does not follow a polytheistic or pantheistic religion
about your worship of the Ancient Gods and Goddesses of Rome and they turn
around and say, "Oh! You're a Pagan!"....you can't escape it. Ok...maybe you
don't live in the hills (pagan - country dweller) but in the modern usage of
the word that is what you are. You follow a polytheistic/pantheistic
spirituality of non-Abrahamic origin. It's an umbrella term. And while
perhaps we can come up with a word that fully describes our religious
practices here in Nova Roma (Romanists? Olympianism? Religioists?
Whatever...) in the end, you will have to describe that word to people and
you're eventually going to come down to just saying..."I'm a Pagan...a Roman
Pagan...I worship the Ancient Gods and Goddess of Rome."

--Dexippus : )

Subject:	Re: Religion & S&M
From:	Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:57:12 -0500

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jmath669642reng@-------- [SMTP:jmath669642reng@--------]
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 3:25 PM
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Religion & S&M
>
> From: jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/font>
>
> My Dear Flavia Claudia;
>
> I think being tied up by you would be fun tooooooo! I t beats the hell
> out of a Pudding bath (even with Raspberry Sauce).
>
> You should not get so excited about these kinds of things, as losing
> control is the first step toward............... Wow how did we get on
> that subject!!!!!
>
You've got to be kidding. I'm probably the only person here NOT
upset about this subject. Been there, done that, bored long, LONG ago.

-- FC

Subject:	Re: Terms and Sterotypes
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:45:25 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 13:20:10 EST, you write:

<< So, unless we call ourselves something that tells what sort of 'religious'
organization this is (unless it isn't a religious organization again/anymore
in which case, I give up cause this is getting annoying) without confusing
people as to the funky 'Pagan'/'Christian' mix we have then we should just
leave it alone, accept and move on. PLEASE!!!!!! >>


Love ya Crys!

--Dexippus
<not insulted>

Subject:	Re: Terms and Sterotypes
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:00:41 -0500 (EST)

I am very much in agreement with Gaius Marius Merullus in his comments
regarding my friends and associates. In the 18th century it was
forbidden to speak about 3 subjects in the Wardrooms in British warships
because they had resulted so many times in duels-to-the-death between
officers. Those subjects were women, politics and religion. That was
unfortunate that the officers of that period were so intolerant (of
course the closenes of a ship of war must have been wearing), but
hopefully we are not so cofined.

A large part of life is finding out who your friends are and comparing
ideas. I often find many of my ideas are modified by this sharing and I
value it. If I cannot disuss my ideas with a friend and "agree to
dsagree" without lilling each other then what value friendship? Must
all friends agree with the values of each other or may they be be
tolerant? I have a very good friend who aggrevates the devil out of me,
because he doesn't have the same values that I do about visiting guests,
but his friendshp is valuable enough to me that I tolerate it, and I
think enough of him, that because to broach the subject would, I am
sure, cause him some embarrassment. We also differ in many other areas,
and I have come to modify some of my opinions as he has some of his in
our fruitful association. That is, I believe, real friendship, and
because of this exchange I can trust him and he trust me. I want that
relationship with my friends in NR, and I can only get it through the
Internet, and letting others know who I am, so they will be encouraged
to reveal the same about themselves. How else does one know who they
can trust and who they may not?

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:53:05 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 13:50:27 EST, you write:

<< So one day when she saw me and called me "Nigger", I threw myself on the
ground at her feet, threw my arms around her leggs and in my worst 'stupid
slave' voice said, "Miz Ca'line!! Miz Ca'line!! Oh, Please don beet me Miz
Ca'line!". She was stunned! She didn't know what to do. Everytime after
that I would say to her "Howz u doin Miz Ca'line?" and go into my act. I
kept this up until the day I left the school. >>


Crys...it's amazing how we must think alike.

I used to work with a somewhat homophobic gentleman in my last job. And
whenever he would make mention of me he would say something like "Oh, well
just give it to Queen Mary over there" or "The faery will take care of it".

Now keep in mind that I do "queen it up" much more online than in real life so
his comments were a bit disheartening not only to me but to my other fellow
workmates.

So then I started really queening it up around him and making flirtation faces
at him in meetings and really making him uncomfortable with the whole thing.
He got so tired of me "pawing" on him that he stopped the name calling.

He quit a month later. Oh the power I weiled!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:55:05 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 14:02:15 EST, you write:

<< "Gentile" is used in one source I have seen
quoted, but "pagan" is the one that stuck. >>

Perhaps Sulla can help shed some light on this...

I was taught that the word "gentile" was a hebrew word that meant "unclean".

Can Sulla or anyone with a good command of Hebrew confirm this?


--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Terms and Sterotypes
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:59:35 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 14:27:21 EST, you write:

<< As Dexippus
quotes R. King, "Cant we all just get along?" If we really want to get
along, and, even better, befriend and support each other in earnest, we
should have enough faith in each other to hear each other out.
> >>


Absolutely!

But in the end...remember...it's MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!
<<only kidding...just playing games on a previous private post-made public>>

--Dexippus

<<Riddle me this, Batman...>>>

Subject:	Re: Religion & S&M
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:46:03 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 13:28:20 EST, you write:

<< I DO,I DO, I DO!!! I don't care about religious conversion...I just
think tying 'em up would be fun. >>


Can I hold the whip? I have a degree in bondage!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:07:06 EST

<< "Olympianism"? >>

I know I did suggest this too in a previous post. But the term is often
identified to closely with Greece rather than Rome. Other opinions?

Oh...and besides...you'll eventually have to define "Olympianism" as a Pagan
faith.

--Dexippus : )

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:06:01 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 15:15:24 EST, you write:

<< "Olympianism"? >>

I know I did suggest this too in a previous post. But the term is often
identified to closely with Greece rather than Rome. Other opinions?

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:04:58 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 15:02:11 EST, you write:

<< I submit that in contemporary usage, "pagan" is not descriptive of
anything;
it is the negation of mainstream monotheism. To use this term to describe
Nova Roma seems to be a statement against mainstream monotheism, rather than
a statement for the Gods and Goddesses of Rome.
>>

Merullus,

I disagree with you here. The term "pagan" does not state being "against"
anything. You may be focusing too much on the christian use of the word.
Let's remember that not too long ago the word "Muslim" struck fear in the
hearts of many. But now it denotes a member of a very faithful religion.

The term "Pagan" in it's modern usage denotes the follower of a spirituality
that is non-Abrahamic. Yes...again...it is an umbrella term. But in light of
its usage, it does describe at least a piece of Nova Roma and the Religio.
Our spirituality is non-Abrahamic...it does not originate from the Judeo-
Christo-Islamic faiths.

Let's not also forget that we are trying to make the Religio respected among
mainstream worship. Currently, it isn't taken seriously. So in doing our
part for the Religio we will do our part to further the re-defining of "pagan"
into a positive word

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:27:48 -0500

Salvete Quirites

From the Latin Dictionary:

Pagus-i, m. village; canton, province; country people,villagers

religio-onis, f. religion; religious scruple, sense of right, conscience;
misgivings; reverence,awe; (pej) superstition; sanctity holiness; sect,
cult; mode of worship; object of veneration, sacred object, sacred place;
divine service, worship, ceremonies; religious practice, ritual; religious
taboo; manifestation of divine sanction; (w.gen 0 scruple about, scrupulous
regard for

Since we are 'civilized' and referring to the worship of the Roman Gods,
I think that the term 'Religio Romanum' is the most appropriate. If however
you are referring to some other worship then perhaps the Religion of the
Celts, Germans, Norse, Japanese, American Natives (opps! I was born in the
US so that means me too) etc. Then call it that. If I say Santeria some
people know what I am talking about and others think they do and still
others don't have a clue. Some/most people will call them all Pagans because
they don't know any better. "Hindu" " Shinto" "Ifa" "Ah, there all just
Pagans." But we know better.

Just some thoughts.

Vale L Equitius Cincinnatus

Subject:	Re: Queen Mary!!??
From:	Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:29:28 -0500

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dexippus@-------- [SMTP:Dexippus@--------]
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 3:53 PM
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
>
> From: Dexippus@--------
> I used to work with a somewhat homophobic gentleman in my last job. And
> whenever he would make mention of me he would say something like "Oh, well
> just give it to Queen Mary over there" or "The faery will take care of
> it".
>
You should have used your most John Wayne voice, grabbed your
crotch, spit, and said, "Sure thing, Butch! And are we still on for a
little rough trade later?"
I kinda like "Queen Mary" though.

> Now keep in mind that I do "queen it up" much more online than in real
> life
>
He does! I know a few people who know him in real life and one of
them thought he was straight.
(Forgive the insult, Dex!) Another one (straight) said he'd blow
off a previous party invitation to join Dex's Pagan CarolFest in NYC.

I'm honored that Dex feels comfortable enough with us to Queen it
up, knowing he's not gonna take any shit here. Also, his posts are funny!
Usually. (Now, Dex...if you're gonna throw a ruby slipper at me, throw the
pair! Size 8)

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:18:58 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 15:03:44 EST, you write:

<< From: "RMerullo" rmerullo@--------

Salvete Crystallina et alii

Good for you. It would have been easier to think of an equally insulting
name and yell it back at her, or even easier than that to feign indifference
and then malign her later; instead you did somethning exceptionally brave
and creative, and, at least to some extent, it worked. Te et tuam rem
gestam laudo - I praise you and your deed. >>


I was 17, what did I know?? :-)

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:18:48 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 15:15:27 EST, you write:

<<
From: Pythia kingan@--------

I know it's a little long but how 'bout "Olympianism"?

Best, Pythia >>


I LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!!! Probably won't be able to spell it half the time, but I
like it!!!

:::::missing Juno spellchecker::::::

Crys

Subject:	Re: final definition of pagan
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:08:29 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 15:34:42 EST, you write:

<< Reason #30 is: "They've placed all their computers in a pile, set them on
fire, and are doing a pagan naked dance around the blaze."

So there you are.We're happy nekkid dancers.
>>

I can live with that! : )

--Dexippus
<<fanning the flames as we speak>>

Subject:	A note on the word "Pagan"...
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:03:20 EST

Salvete, Omnes,

I haven't been able to participate in the recent "terminology" thread due to
long hours at work. It's great to see a discussion on this list remaining
civil even when opinions have varied so wildly! :)

It seems to me that there is simply no one descriptive for "Religio Romana"
that will be understood by everyone, or will please everyone. That's one of
the reasons that terms have been used fairly loosely on the website...
everyone is free to use the religious names that seem best to them.

All of the terms that have been bounced around seem valid to me, as they
describe varying interests within the ancient religions. Pythia's vote,
"Olympianism", for instance, works wonderfully for many, but not as well for a
devotee of Mithras, a deity who wasn't one of the Olympians. However, the word
works *very* well for her, and there's no reason why she shouldn't use it.
It's certainly clear and understandable, just as most of the other descriptive
words so far discussed have been.

As far as the word "Pagan", this has been used simply because in ancient Rome
the followers of the Religio Romana often used it themselves. Even the Emperor
Julian used the word to denote the various ancient religions (although he used
the term "Hellenism" most often when referring to his own path).

Pagan might have been a derogatory word as far as Christian writings, but so
were many other words, such as "Goddess". Outside of the Church it was simply
the common term which allowed a speaker to differentiate between the ancient
polytheistic religions and the new monotheistic faiths.

My *personal* vote is that people can call me anything but "Late for
Dinner"... ;)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Terms and Sterotypes
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:19:04 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 14:27:16 EST, you write:

<< If, however, someone means something
specific when they say 'Pagan', that is different: perhaps you could
enlighten me? >>


OK...I'm a lemming, I confess!!!!

<<Yes, I have no doubt that stereotypes are with humanity for the long haul.
If you think Americans overapply them, I'd like to introduce you to some of
my Russian and Kazakh friends. (Oh no! I just stereotyped Russians and
Kazakhs!:))>>

Shame on you!!!! 40 lashes from Claudia for you!!!!!!!

<<As Dexippus
quotes R. King, "Cant we all just get along?" If we really want to get
along, and, even better, befriend and support each other in earnest, we
should have enough faith in each other to hear each other out.>>

sigh....unfortunately I am of the opinion that right now, we can't all get
along. I'm not trying to be intolerant, I have just seen too much, and Im to
young to have seen what I have seen...sigh</PRE></HTML>

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:59:43 -0800

> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-12-11 14:02:15 EST, you write:
>
> << "Gentile" is used in one source I have seen
> quoted, but "pagan" is the one that stuck. >>
>
> Perhaps Sulla can help shed some light on this...
>
> I was taught that the word "gentile" was a hebrew word that meant "unclean".
>
> Can Sulla or anyone with a good command of Hebrew confirm this?
>
> --Dexippus

I'm not Sulla and I'm not Jewish but I can add to the confusion by telling you
that
"gentile" is what the memebers of the Church of Latter Day Saints call those not
of their religion.
You all know L.D.S., don't you. As *their* tv ads say, "We're the Church of
Latter Day Saints, the Mormons."

Yeah. They seem to have gotten around the question of what they call themselves
and what other people call them and what label to use so people will know who
they are. It is called
*"Name Recognition"*

C. Aelius Ericius
of the Religio Romana, The Roman Pagans.

Subject:	pagan, Roman, et cetera
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:46:17 EST

Salvete omnes!

I presume to congratulate all on the decorum and restraint with which all
have taken part in this debate. It stands in heartening contrast to much
that went on the last previous time this topic came up here. I feel
better about our community for the way we are able to debate this now.

As long as no-one insists on calling me a "pagan" or a "Roman pagan" or
the like, I'm fully prepared to defend their right to refer to themselves
by any such terms if it's important to them to do so.

That some parts of the Web site refer to Nova Roma as a Roman pagan
organization is unfortunate from the point of view of those who find the
term objectionable, but it doesn't mean that, as has been suggested,
that's what Nova Roma is and will remain. After all, the question of
whether even the Constitution of the nation is binding has not, to my
knowledge, been settled. A few words here and there on Web pages
certainly can't be considered more definitive than the Constitution.
Anyway, in the long run, Nova Roma will be what we make of it. Whatever
else we may eventually make of it, I'm happy to see that we are making it
more civil than it seemed a while back.

Valete!

L. Sergius Aust.


sic friatur crustum dulce.

(Thus the cookie crumbles.)

Subject:	Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:49:58 EST

In a message dated 98-12-11 16:17:58 EST, you write:

<< Crys...it's amazing how we must think alike. >>

Dex, your the PERFECT man for me..good with kids (and cook em when their bad)
and won't demand sex from me (like I haven't had enough of THAT <G>)!!!!

I say we have the first NR marriage!!!!!!!!

Ya know I love ya!!

Crys

Subject:	Stoicism
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:18:02 PST

I have come to the conclusion, after much soul searching, that Stoicism
does not work for me. Anyone have another viable philosophy that might?

--M. Gladius Saevus

Subject:	Re: Stoicism
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:40:41 -0500

Patrick Dunn wrote:
>
> From: "Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
>
> I have come to the conclusion, after much soul searching, that Stoicism
> does not work for me. Anyone have another viable philosophy that might?
>
> --M. Gladius Saevus
>
Hedonism. It works for me.
At least...it USED to...
Now it's 'nihilism' in the sense of 'not gettin' any.'

I think your question's going to open a FASCINATING discussion! And I
betcha that Epicureanism comes up!

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Robert Woolwine alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:55:56 -0800

Well yes. it does..but its also a catchall word for anyone who does not follow
the covenant of Abraham. In other words..not circumcised.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

Dexippus@-------- wrote:

> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-12-11 14:02:15 EST, you write:
>
> << "Gentile" is used in one source I have seen
> quoted, but "pagan" is the one that stuck. >>
>
> Perhaps Sulla can help shed some light on this...
>
> I was taught that the word "gentile" was a hebrew word that meant "unclean".
>
> Can Sulla or anyone with a good command of Hebrew confirm this?
>
> --Dexippus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject:	Maybe I am a pagan...
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 21:11:17 -0500

Salvete Dexippe et alii


:
:Well...because Nova Roma is a Roman Pagan Organization. We can debate this
:until the Moon falls from the sky, but that is what it was conceived to be
and
:that is what it is. We welcome all faiths to join us in our love of Rome
but
:our focus is fundamentally on the Religio Romana. "Nova Roma: Dedicated
to
:the Restoration of Classical Roman Religion, Culture, and Virtues" -- NR
:homepage

Good point.
:
:
:<<I neither have a desire, nor see a justification, to identify
:myself and other Nova Romans as "non-something", which is what "pagan" is
in
:the way that you apply it, Dexippe.>>
:
:You can choose not to call yourself "pagan" if you please. But when you
are

It is not my desire not to be called "pagan" of which I have been speaking,
but rather my desire not to call myself, you and all of Nova Roma
"non-christian", "non-jew", "non-muslim", which is what I believe the
contemporary meaning of "pagan" to be. It is true that I have never
considered myself a pagan, but that is a different can of worms altogether.

:
:around and say, "Oh! You're a Pagan!"....you can't escape it. Ok...maybe
you
:don't live in the hills (pagan - country dweller) but in the modern usage
of

But Dexippe, I most definitely do live in the hills, heavily forested hills
at that. Hey, maybe I am a pagan...perhaps this is the easy way out for me
from this ever-tougher-to-argue debate?

:the word that is what you are. You follow a polytheistic/pantheistic
:spirituality of non-Abrahamic origin. It's an umbrella term. And while
:perhaps we can come up with a word that fully describes our religious
:practices here in Nova Roma (Romanists? Olympianism? Religioists?
:Whatever...) in the end, you will have to describe that word to people and
:you're eventually going to come down to just saying..."I'm a Pagan...a
Roman
:Pagan...I worship the Ancient Gods and Goddess of Rome."

Ah, maybe you're right. But can we not resist acquiescence to labeling, at
least among ourselves?
:
:--Dexippus : )
:

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Hedonism
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:23:54 -0500 (EST)

Have you given any thought to the subject ism??

I understand that it is extremely satisfying (to the individual) on a
short term basis, and I don't think that a lot of people survive for a
long term analysis.

I understand that there are several places around the world where you
can vacation that cater to Hedonists on a completely paid program, food,
loding, drinks and "games".

I am not much of an expert on this, as my beginning in the philosophy
got cut short by my wife when I got married. I do however have one or
two hard spots on my liver as a pleasant (????) memory of those days
long gone by.

M. Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:23:31 -0500

James Mathews wrote:
>
> Have you given any thought to the subject ism??
>
> I understand that it is extremely satisfying (to the individual) on a
> short term basis, and I don't think that a lot of people survive for a
> long term analysis.
>
Audens, I like you and I enjoy hearing your opinions, but we might as
well get one thing straight now...

If you're going to take everything I say seriously, you're going to get
a terrible case of typer's cramp!

Handing a BIG grain of salt to Audens,
-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Religion & S&M
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:52:07 EST

I--------message dated 12/11/98 2:57:22 PM Ce--------l Sta--------d Time, CheriS@--------
writes:

> You've got to be kidding. I'm probably the only person here NOT
> upset about this subject. Been there, done that, bored long, LONG ago.
>

No you're not. The reason I'm not responding to most of this thread is that I
went through this back in the 50s, and am done with it. Any term chosen will
have it's detractors. I say let's stay with what they founders chose, and
deal with it. Or not. Me, I'm a Roman Shintoist. That fits quite
comfortably with being called a Roman Pagan - or just plain Pagan, or mainly
just plain weird. Do I care? Nope. I'm not going to get my toga all twisted
up over mere -words-! I get more offended at being called female than I do at
being called Pagan.

Secunda Floria Zonara

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:02:12 -0800 (PST)

> Well yes. it does..but its also a catchall word for anyone who does
not follow
> the covenant of Abraham. In other words..not circumcised.

But not all people who are circumcised are Jewish!


> Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
> Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

Noct'a

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Robert Woolwine alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:18:21 -0800

True that was just an example of what typically separates a Jew from a
Non-Jew, especially during the ancient times. There are other factors, such
as not eating pork (and again...Muslims dont eat pork too) but there are a
host of restrictions that tend to separate Jews from non-Jews. Regardless,
the catch-all phrase is and was designeed initally as a put down on all
Non-Jews. I believe that it was first used as a phrase when the Samaratians
attempted to mingle with the Jews after the exile in the 6th century BC.
But thats enough for the history lesson today :) Sufficet to say, It was
not a term that the Jews used as a compliment, it was used to differentiate
themselves from any other race of people. While specifically, I am Jewish
because my mother is. I would also be technically a Gentile because my
father was not a Jew. It just so happens, that according to the Torah, I am
Jewish, becasue that is how the Jewish people delinate themselves and
maintain their genalogical records. I hope this does not muddle the waters
too much.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

"A. Iulia" wrote:

> From: "A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
>
> > Well yes. it does..but its also a catchall word for anyone who does
> not follow
> > the covenant of Abraham. In other words..not circumcised.
>
> But not all people who are circumcised are Jewish!
>
>
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
> > Candidate for Praetor Urbanis
>
> Noct'a
>
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