Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: Classics wasTerminology ("Roman Pagan") my view
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:17:05 +1100 (EST)

>
> << My father was a Heavy-Duty Diesel Mechanic
> and a very good one. He ended his life as a Maintenance
Superintendant
> at a very large Dam Project in Turkey, >>
> Hmm my father was a bricklayer for Harvester. He served in W.W.II
and had
> hopes of being a History teacher or at least a professor. The war
changed that
> but it gave him a good understanding of the greater mechanics of
life. He was
> unable to go to school but he gave to my brothers and I the zest to
learn.
> My parent knew that they may not able to give us a college education
so they
> made sure we got the most of our public education. Yes, public
schools. As a
> family they were involved in what we did. WE watched educational
program
> together and they made sure we learned from the simplest of car trips.
> the biggest thing is that too many parent leave education to just the
> classroom!
> My late father and I built catapults together and planted gardens,
my late
> mother helped me find ricotta cheese (no mean feat in the 70's) to
make sacred
> cakes and Roman green beans for Latin class in high school.
> It is however never too late to educate your selves, you can make up
for the
> lost time a bit.avale yourself to the resources around you already.
>

I've never had any official classics education.
My dad used to read me myths when I was a kid and I loved them.

My little brother went to a private music school (one of the best in
England) and he had Classics lessons so I read all of his books!

I just teach myself what I can and spend a lot of time in the library!

You may think it's hard to teach yourself but, really, it isn't!

> PA Olivia
> who is missing her parents this year,

Noct'a


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:31:09 +0000

I know it's a little long but how 'bout "Olympianism"?

Best, Pythia


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:23:13 +0000

Dex,

Gentile is from the Latin, and I don't think it means unclean...I think
it is related to the word "gente".

Perhaps you were thinking of "goyim" which is indeed Hebrew, but it does
not mean unclean either. It means "foreigner", or outsider. So who ever
"tought" you what gentile meant was talking through their hat!

Pythia, (whose "command" of Hebrew is questionable, but who knows a bit
more than you average bear about it!)

Dexippus@-------- wrote:
>
> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-12-11 14:02:15 EST, you write:
>
> << "Gentile" is used in one source I have seen
> quoted, but "pagan" is the one that stuck. >>
>
> Perhaps Sulla can help shed some light on this...
>
> I was taught that the word "gentile" was a hebrew word that meant "unclean".
>
> Can Sulla or anyone with a good command of Hebrew confirm this?
>
> --Dexippus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
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Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:35:32 +0000

>
> Oh...and besides...you'll eventually have to define "Olympianism" as a Pagan
> faith.
>
> --Dexippus : )

Not if I don't choose to. I really loath this whole debate about the
word "Pagan". I hate that word...it is totally meaningless for someone
like me. If I say I am pagan in the so-called "Pagan" community, people
want to know where my pentacle is, or if I am Gardnerian,Celtic,
solitary or eclectic, none of which applies to me. I don't "use" my
Gods(as in "what pantheon do you use?"), I worship them, and I don't
call quarters. (and I can't STAND gargoyles!)

All of the above is all well and good if one is a Wiccan, a witch,
Celtic or whatever, but I am none of those things. I don't really spend
a lot of time figuring out what to call myself in terms of a label. I
have been a polytheist practically my whole life. If someone else wants
to call me "pagan" fine, but since it conjures up a whole image that
doesn't fit, its their problem, not mine.

Pythia


Subject:	Re: Religion & S&M
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:51:05 +0800 (SGT)

---Cheri Scotch CheriS@-------- wrote:
>
> From: Cheri
> >
> > From: M--------2Two@--------
> >
> > Salvete --
> >
> > It almost looks like we are headed for another lovely religious
debate (oh
> > goody).
> >
> Gods preserve us!
>

This we do NOT need!!!
> > Do I want to take Sulla and Audens (for example...again...sorry
guys) out
> > back
> > and beat them into conversion?
> >
> I DO,I DO, I DO!!! I don't care about religious conversion...I just
> think tying 'em up would be fun.
>
Oooooh yes!!!!!

Tying them up, outside in the courtyard behind the Taverna?
I can just imagine it!

Noct'a

> -- Flavia Claudia
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
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>


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:03:10 EST

In a message dated 12/11/98 4:19:45 PM Central Standard Time, kingan@--------
writes:

> (and I can't STAND gargoyles!)
>

***sigh**** carefully shoving all the handmade gargoyle statues behind the
ones of Minerva, Bacchus, Juno, and Jupiter.....

Secunda Floria Zonara


Subject:	Re: Stoicism
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:24:02 EST

In a message dated 12/11/98 7:18:24 PM Central Standard Time,
saevvs@-------- writes:

> Anyone have another viable philosophy that might?
>

Platonism? Epicureanism? Ionism? Pythagoreanism? Eleaticism? Sophism?
Socratism? Pyrrhonism? Megarianism? Etrerian? Cynicism? Hedonism?
Cyrenaicism? Aristotelianism? Gnosticism? Manicheism? Alexandrianism?
Discordiamism?Patristicism? Erisianism? Eudaemonism?

Ummmm - I'm reaching a blank, now. I know there's more, but I just can't
remember any others right now.

I follow Discordianism as a life philosophy. I think it fits well with being
a Roman Shintoist.

Secunda Floria Zonara


Subject:	Re: final definition of pagan
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:20:39 +1100 (EST)

Flavia Claudia said:
> Reason #30 is: "They've placed all their computers in a pile, set
them on
> fire, and are doing a pagan naked dance around the blaze."
>
> So there you are.We're happy nekkid dancers.
>

Oh when will ye learn?

No happy pagan nekkid dances!!
It's:

Happynekkidpagandances!

> -- Flavia Claudia

Noct'a

*Dancing around her computer as she types!*


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:44:02 +1100 (EST)

> I'm not Sulla and I'm not Jewish but I can add to the confusion by
telling you
> that
> "gentile" is what the memebers of the Church of Latter Day Saints
call those not
> of their religion.
> You all know L.D.S., don't you. As *their* tv ads say, "We're the
Church of
> Latter Day Saints, the Mormons."

They have a TV ad??????

Noct'a
A Pagan, a Roman Pagan, whatever!


Subject:	Re: Religion & S&M
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:48:28 +1100 (EST)

>
> < think tying 'em up would be fun. >>
>
>
> Can I hold the whip? I have a degree in bondage!

Oh :(
I was quite looking forward to that!
Maybe we could share!

> --Dexippus

Noct'a
*Queen of all things tie-uppable!


Subject:	Re: Stoicism
From:	SDmtwi@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 04:10:29 EST

> I have come to the conclusion, after much soul searching, that Stoicism
> does not work for me. Anyone have another viable philosophy that might?

Salve,
In order to answer that question adequately, I'd have to know why you felt
Stoicism to be inadequate for your needs.

Vale,
T. Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Getting Straight
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:08:35 -0500 (EST)

Since you chose to make your cautionary message public, my reply is the
same. The message about hedonism was written and sent before I read
yours. I have extensive resources at hand in my lovely, and use them
often. Your last message or so have erroniously indicated. your
thoughts about who I take seriously and who I do not.

I tell you now, my dear, my messages have not considered your reactions
at all, as the elements of them were not directed to you.

You are certainly welcome to read them if you wish, and comment on them
if you feel inclined, but, I have not written to or about you, or with
you particularly in mind since I do not know you,and until such time as
we find a common ground of interest, will probably not know you better.

I am flattered that you are concerned for my writing hand, but after 62
years of dealing with that problem, I believe that I have it under
control to my satisfaction.

I am further flattered at your concern that I should think your messages
serious, but to be quite frank I do not usually consider such from
anyone unless they have a strong background in that which I am
interested, so you may rest quiet on that point as well.

Your Servant; (-: (-: (-: (-: (-:

M. Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:23:53 EST

In a message dated 12/12/98 1:12:05 AM Central Standard Time,
iuliacaesaria@-------- writes:

> But not all people who are circumcised are Jewish!
>

Especially in America where doctors will circumcize little boy babies if the
parents don't raise a great huge fuss about it. You know, the "Oops, we
assumed you wanted it done - too late now" syndrome. They hide the form you
have to sign in among all the other pre-admission forms for a maternity
patient, and give it to the mother to read and sign while in labor. Sneaky.
And if you refuse to sign it - they send in "doctors" to tell you it's a
medically necessary procedure, and if you don't get it done for your son, then
he'll be damaged and scarred for life. Only in America would a Jewish
convention become the medical norm (it was all those Jewish mommas saying they
wanted their sons to grow up to be Rabbis or Doctors.....).

Secunda Floria Zonara


Subject:	Re: Getting Straight
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:46:49 EST

In a message dated 12/12/98 5:08:39 AM Central Standard Time,
jmath669642reng@-------- --------es:

> I am further flattered at your concern that I should think your messages
> serious, but to be quite frank I do not usually consider such from
> anyone unless they have a strong background in that which I am
> interested, so you may rest quiet on that point as well.
>

Oh! Ouch! I am soooooooo glad this was not directed at me. (At least - I
hope it wasn't!) I don't think I should have to list my pedigree in order for
me to be heard and considered seriously. I think it rather pedantic and rude
to demand up front that I list all my accomplishments throughout my life in
order to be taken seriously. Nor am I so narrow that I would only consider
conversing with people who had "a strong background in that which I am
interested".

>until such time as
>we find a common ground of interest, will probably not know you better.

Nova Roma is not a common enough ground to at least attempt to get to know any
other member of it better? I may be in the wrong country. I am certainly
glad this attitude is not prevalent (at least by my observations), and I
shan't leave over the attitude of a few people.

Having deleted the original post, I don't know whom M. Audens is addressing.
I hope it's not me. And yes - most people read most of the posts to a public
board, so, M Audens, I did read your message. When a post is not addressed
to a specific person, most people tend to read the public posts, and may
assume it bears some relevance upon themselves. If it is directed to a
specific person, unless it is relevant to what else is happening on the list,
it is best taken private. That is so that those who read all posts on a list
don't wonder if it is directed at them.

I personally tend to make my posts general and applicable to all, and assume
all other posts are written the same way. If I wish to address a specific
individual - publicly -, then I include their name in a public post so they
and the readers of the post know whom it intends to address. It is rare for
my entire post to be toward a specific person, so usually only the part
bearing their name is directed to them. It's common courtesy, avoids
confusion, and ought to be part of the great unwritten netiquette.

Secunda Floria Zonara
Who feels M Audens considers her an ignorant and unworthy of knowing
freedwoman because she's not militarily/navally inclined


Subject:	OT (wasRe: Terminology)
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:26:06 -0800

> From: "A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
>
> > You all know L.D.S., don't you. As *their* tv ads say, "We're the
> Church of
> > Latter Day Saints, the Mormons."
>
> They have a TV ad??????
>
> Noct'a
> A Pagan, a Roman Pagan, whatever!

They, the "Saints" have many TV ads. Quite nicely done, too. You often don't
know what the nice thing is about until the tag line, maybe not until the
end sign board comes up. And the door to door workers dress like FBI or
MIBs. ("like MIBs"???) [and forget it. a black toga would just make you
look like a Berber]

Ericius


Subject:	Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:08:57 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/11/98 4:30:32 PM EST, M--------2Two@-------- writes:

<>

Oh I knew some words at 17! Good for you though handling it the way you did!

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Queen Mary!!??
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:08:15 EST

I--------message dated 12/11/98 4:28:47 PM EST, CheriS@-------- writes:

<>

I guess I have to start queening it up some more. Can't go having my
reputation ruined with people thinking I'm straight! Perish the thought!

<<Another one (straight) said he'd blow off a previous party invitation to
join Dex's Pagan CarolFest in NYC.>>

Oh Yes! It's going to be FABULOUS! So far 30-35 Pagans are joining me in
gathering at the tree in Rockefeller Center on Sunday December 20 to sing
pagan adapted lyrics to some of the season's most cherished carols. So come
one come all! We're meeting at the tree at 2:00pm. Look for me in the
leather jacket and bells!

It's a legal event. The NYC Events Commission knows about it and has given
it's ok. We don't need a permit since we won't be setting up sound equipment.
The purpose is to show a positive appearance of Paganism. All the carols are
"clean"...yeah it was tough, but I did it (ha ha).

<<I'm honored that Dex feels comfortable enough with us to Queen it
up, knowing he's not gonna take any shit here. Also, his posts are funny!
Usually. (Now, Dex...if you're gonna throw a ruby slipper at me, throw the
pair! Size 8) >>

Pair Size 8! Comin' right out ya!

--Dexippus
Divus Maximus Extremus


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:10:30 EST

In a m--------g--------t--------2/11/98 4:35:43 PM EST, v--------l@-------- writ--------br>
<< Some/most people will call them all Pagans because
they don't know any better. "Hindu" " Shinto" "Ifa" "Ah, there all just
Pagans." But we know better. >>

Yes...this is true.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:11:35 EST

In a message dated 12/11/98 5:09:10 PM EST, kingan@-------- writes:

<< Perhaps you were thinking of "goyim" which is indeed Hebrew, but it does
not mean unclean either. It means "foreigner", or outsider. So who ever
"tought" you what gentile meant was talking through their hat! >>

Thanks for the education Pythia. : )

--Dexippus
Goy Boy Extraordinairre


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:14:46 EST

In a message dated 12/11/98 5:19:53 PM EST, kingan@-------- writes:

<< I hate that word...it is totally meaningless for someone
like me. If I say I am pagan in the so-called "Pagan" community, people
want to know where my pentacle is, or if I am Gardnerian,Celtic,
solitary or eclectic, none of which applies to me. I don't "use" my
Gods(as in "what pantheon do you use?"), I worship them, and I don't
call quarters. (and I can't STAND gargoyles!) >>

Yes..this is true and only shows the ignorance of those who think "pagan"
refers only to Wiccans, Witches, Gardnerians, or Celtic re-invented religion.

Don't fret though Pythia! You are a Goddess no matter what you choose to call
yourself! : )

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:17:39 EST

In a m--------g--------t--------2/11/98 6:00:19 PM EST, raz--------@-------- writ--------br>
<< "gentile" is what the memebers of the Church of Latter Day Saints call
those not
of their religion.
You all know L.D.S., don't you. As *their* tv ads say, "We're the Church of
Latter Day Saints, the Mormons."
>>

Yes...but the term is originally found in Judeo-Christo writings to refer to
"outsiders". I was told by someone who was Orthodox Jewish that it meant
"unclean". But I don't like to take just one person's word for something.
Maybe to his community that is what it meant, but perhaps the original and
true meaning is something different.

Sulla! Where are you?

--Dexippus : )


Subject:	Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:19:38 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/11/98 8:07:27 PM EST, M--------2Two@-------- writes:

<< Dex, your the PERFECT man for me..good with kids (and cook em when their
bad)
and won't demand sex from me (like I haven't had enough of THAT <G>)!!!!

I say we have the first NR marriage!!!!!!!! >>

Let's do it! I can use the tax benefits! : )

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:23:52 EST

In a m--------g--------t--------2/11/98 8:56:46 PM EST, al--------us@-------- writ--------br>
<< Well yes. it does..but its also a catchall word for anyone who does not
follow
the covenant of Abraham. In other words..not circumcised. >>

Sulla, thanks for educating us on this. But let's say someone like me who is
circumcised but is not Jewish (i.e. does not follow the covenant of
Abraham)...does the definition "unclean" apply?

I ask because I often get insulted by the use of the word "gentile" by
monotheist fanatics who use it to refer to me or other Pagans (ok all...excuse
the word if you don't like it!). 'Cause after smelling some of the people who
like to throw that word around me, I must say that my dog's bum is cleaner
than most of them! : )

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:25:08 EST

In a message dated 98-12-12 12:19:53 EST, you write:

<>

Let's do it! I can use the tax benefits! : )

--Dexippus >>

OK.....you do, I do....it's done....I promise to honor and share my
dresses!!!!!!


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:26:21 -0800

Yes..Gentile referred to unclean....it was not a positive term...but a term used
to separate Jews from Non-Jews espcially the Samaratins...in Northern
Israel...after the fall of the Northern Kingdom, because they called themselves
Jews initially.....so...we had to separate the us from everyone else.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

Dexippus@-------- wrote:

> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a m--------g--------t--------2/11/98 6:00:19 PM EST, raz--------@-------- writ--------/font>
>
> << "gentile" is what the memebers of the Church of Latter Day Saints call
> those not
> of their religion.
> You all know L.D.S., don't you. As *their* tv ads say, "We're the Church of
> Latter Day Saints, the Mormons."
> >>
>
> Yes...but the term is originally found in Judeo-Christo writings to refer to
> "outsiders". I was told by someone who was Orthodox Jewish that it meant
> "unclean". But I don't like to take just one person's word for something.
> Maybe to his community that is what it meant, but perhaps the original and
> true meaning is something different.
>
> Sulla! Where are you?
>
> --Dexippus : )
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.


Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:29:22 EST

In a message dated 12/11/98 10:24:23 PM EST, jmath669642reng@-------- --------es:

<>

Well...speaking as someone who went to Club Hedonism in Jamaica, please allow
me to answer that. Those clubs are not for true Hedonists! They are for
bored corporate types who don't get out much and want to live out a wife
swapping fantasy!

Oh what a horrible vacation that was! But the cute cuban boy serving me
drinks was quite a treat! : )

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Maybe I am a pagan...
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:27:21 EST

In a message dated 12/11/98 9:35:52 PM EST, rmerullo@-------- writes:

<< It is not my desire not to be called "pagan" of which I have been speaking,
but rather my desire not to call myself, you and all of Nova Roma
"non-christian", "non-jew", "non-muslim", which is what I believe the
contemporary meaning of "pagan" to be. >>

I can understand that. But perhaps in educating the public about the Religio
Romana, we can help others to see that "pagan" is not a "non-" word as you put
it.

<<But Dexippe, I most definitely do live in the hills, heavily forested hills
at that. Hey, maybe I am a pagan...perhaps this is the easy way out for me
from this ever-tougher-to-argue debate?>>

LOL...ok...you got me there! You're a Pagan 'cause you live in the hills! I
guess I'm ot a pagan 'cause I live in the suburbs! ha ha ha : )

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Religion & S&M
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:31:14 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/11/98 11:55:09 PM EST, Nodigio@-------- writes:

<< Any term chosen will
have it's detractors. I say let's stay with what they founders chose, and
deal with it. Or not. Me, I'm a Roman Shintoist. That fits quite
comfortably with being called a Roman Pagan - or just plain Pagan, or mainly
just plain weird. Do I care? Nope. I'm not going to get my toga all
twisted
up over mere -words-! I get more offended at being called female than I do
at
being called Pagan. >>

Good for you Zonara! Perhaps we can call ourselves Roman Taoists or
something?

: )

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:31:39 -0800

Yes..it still does apply...there was more to the covenant of Abraham than just
being circumsized......there are TONS of rituals...I dont know them all...I dont
really practice and I have never had a bar miahvtz (sp). I have never been to a
synogague....I was rasied as a Christian. Regardless, I do know most of the High
Holidays.....Passover, Yom Kippur, and well...speical holidays for loved ones. My
grandmother pracitise..and..well..its very interesting in my
opinion...besides...our calender is over 5750 years old..not the current 1998/9
one..lol!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

Dexippus@-------- wrote:

> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a m--------g--------t--------2/11/98 8:56:46 PM EST, al--------us@-------- writ--------/font>
>
> << Well yes. it does..but its also a catchall word for anyone who does not
> follow
> the covenant of Abraham. In other words..not circumcised. >>
>
> Sulla, thanks for educating us on this. But let's say someone like me who is
> circumcised but is not Jewish (i.e. does not follow the covenant of
> Abraham)...does the definition "unclean" apply?
>
> I ask because I often get insulted by the use of the word "gentile" by
> monotheist fanatics who use it to refer to me or other Pagans (ok all...excuse
> the word if you don't like it!). 'Cause after smelling some of the people who
> like to throw that word around me, I must say that my dog's bum is cleaner
> than most of them! : )
>
> --Dexippus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.


Subject:	Re: Religion & S&M
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:33:07 EST

In a message dated 12/12/98 2:17:30 AM EST, iuliacaesaria@-------- writes:

<< Oh :(
I was quite looking forward to that!
Maybe we could share! >>

Sharing is good. You take the down stroke...I take the up stroke! : )

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:39:27 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/12/98 12:25:31 PM EST, M--------2Two@-------- writes:

<< OK.....you do, I do....it's done....I promise to honor and share my
dresses!!!!!! >>

Fierce! And I promise to love and share beauty tips!

There! We're married! HUZZAH!

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:40:47 EST

In a m--------g--------t--------2/12/98 12:26:40 PM EST, al--------us@-------- writ--------br>
<< Yes..Gentile referred to unclean....it was not a positive term...but a term
used
to separate Jews from Non-Jews espcially the Samaratins...in Northern
Israel...after the fall of the Northern Kingdom, because they called
themselves
Jews initially.....so...we had to separate the us from everyone else. >>

Sulla...again...thanks for the education. You've been most helpful : )

--Dexippus
One clean gentile


Subject:	Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:41:36 EST

In a message dated 98-12-12 12:40:03 EST, you write:

<< Fierce! And I promise to love and share beauty tips!

There! We're married! HUZZAH!

--Dexippus
>>

That was SO much easier than last time!!!!!!!!!! Now...I don't have to change
Gens do I??


Subject:	Since ya done brought it up......
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:48:04 EST

In a message dated 98-12-12 10:24:04 EST, you write:

<< And if you refuse to sign it - they send in "doctors" to tell you it's a
medically necessary procedure, and if you don't get it done for your son,
then
he'll be damaged and scarred for life. >>

This is exactly why I hhaven't brought the subject up with my doctor. I know
it's not "medically necessary" but I don't know if I should have it done with
Lapis.

Congrats!!! We have gone from a discussionon Paganism to whether or not I
sholud have Lapis circumsized. Any suggestions??

Crys (one confused Mater)


Subject:	Re: OT (wasRe: Terminology)
From:	Anita Megas amgunn@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:45:04 -0600

Razenna wrote:

> From: Raz-------- raz--------@--------

> They, (SNIP) [and forget it. a black toga would just make you
> look like a Berber]
>
> Ericius

"Berber"s, what's wrong with Berbers? Mine does a wonderful job on my hair.

Venator


Subject:	Re: Terminology (wandering)
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:00:32 -0800

Dexippus@-------- wrote:

> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a m--------g--------t--------2/12/98 12:26:40 PM EST, al--------us@-------- writ--------/font>
>
> << Yes..Gentile referred to unclean....it was not a positive term...but a term
> used
> to separate Jews from Non-Jews espcially the Samaratins...in Northern
> Israel...after the fall of the Northern Kingdom, because they called
> themselves
> Jews initially.....so...we had to separate the us from everyone else. >>
>
> Sulla...again...thanks for the education. You've been most helpful : )
>
> --Dexippus
> One clean gentile

I'd still like to know something of the history of the word, it etimology. It
sure looks Latin in origin, not Hebraic. One of the things I learned in my Anthro
Linquistics class was to Never trust the folk history of a word. It might be
correct, but chances were it ain't. Does anyone know the Hebrew root word for
this Latin sounding word? If "gentile" was supposed to come from a later period
than 6th Cent bce, like 3rd Cent ce, I could see it being a backward slap at the
oppressors [;-)]. That appears to be part of the history of "schmuck". In
Yiddish /shmuk/ is a nasty word. In German it belongs to the group of words to
describe "Rich Folk", like ostentaiously dressed with jewelry. Such an Overlord to
the Poor Folk would be a /shmuk/.


Subject:	Re: Marriage of Crystallina and Dexippus
From:	Anita Megas amgunn@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:48:28 -0600

Heill og Saell my Friends!

I am so happy that you found each other. Dex will be a strong, if slightly
different, Pater.
Crystallina has already shown us how strong and insightful she is.

Besides, sharing wardrobe and beauty products will help on economizing living
expenses also!

If I recall correctly, in marriage one could combine the Gens Nomen to found a new
Gens line.
Ergo: Damianus Lucianus-Iunius Dexippus and Amethystia Luciana-Iunia Crystallina,

Pater and Mater to Primus Luciana-Iunia Terrelina, et alia.

Good Luck, and thanks for the Good Humor!

Venator


Subject:	Faith and Religion (Long)
From:	Anita Megas amgunn@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:20:53 -0600

Strenuus Salus et Bonum Fortuna Omnes, Salvete!

I should like to offer some thoughts.

We are, all of us, trying to overcome almost 2000 years of a person's
Faith and Religion being defined by forces outside of themselves.

As a convenient label, I and my co-Religionists use the word Asatru.
This is not a historical styling beyond Scandanavian Linguistic and
Archaeo-Sociological studies started in the 19th century of the Common
Era. My Northern Ancestors didn't have a name for their Faith and
Religion, It Just Was. They lived with the Holy Ones as part and parcel
of their existence. If asked, they would (probably) simply answer "Vor
Tru," "Our Faith."

In 1969 (which I look upon as the first steps of my Faith-Religion
journey), I participated in the "Confirmation" ritual of the Roman
Catholic Church. I came close to refusing, which would have been quite
the revolt in my family. The big row I had with the priest, was over
steadfastly wanting to take my father's name as a "Confirmation name,"
rather than that of a saint of the Church. He backed off when I loudly
made the point, in front of my parents, that he was telling me that my
dad wasn't good enough to be the primary role model in my life. Here
the Church was trying to define for me a proper Religious expression of
my internal Faith.

When Anita and I were to be married, the position of both our cradle
Religions was "If you don't have this Marriage blessed in the
Church....." (Anita was raised a in the Greek Orthodox Religion, but she
is now an Agnostic Deist.) We were going to say "F*** It!" and just
hire a Justice of the Peace to perform a wedding. Finally we
compromised, to some relief for our mothers, on a religious ceremony.
We were wed by a Congregationalist minister in an old Presbyterian
meeting house.

What are these examples to the topic? The Church in each case was
trying to be the controlling factor in defining the "Proper Religious
Act."

I didn't have any Religion for quite some time. I knew what my Beliefs
and Faith were. I knew what Deities, Practices and Philosophies
interested, strengthened and comforted me. I knew which Persons
interested, amused and enriched me.

When I bought and started wearing my first Thorshammer pendant, I was a
decade away from hearing the words "Asatru" or "Odinism" in reference to
the Faith I had. It was just "Minn Tru," "My Faith."

In Nova Roma I am known as an Asatruar. I accept this as an apt
declaration of the Religious expression of my Faith; which is somewhat
different from those whose Faith is expressed in the giving of Honor and
Worship to the Olympians, YHVH, Yeshua ben Yusef called Jesus Christos,
the Holy Ones of Gaul, Aegyptos, Germania, Syria, Britannia, India,
etc......

All of us are here because we wish and strive to be Roman, to greater or
lesser extents.

The Public and State Religion IS the giving of Honor and Respect to the
Ceremonies centering around the Olympians. I, as a member of a foreign
cult in my Personal Religious Practice, don't want this to change. For
me, the bedrock of the character and culture of Rome is the Public
Ackowledgement of the Olympians.

I had stated at one point that I would not stand for office due to
religious scruple. I came to the conclusion that the Olympians are
cousins within the broader Indo-European Family of the Aesir and Vanir
to whon I give Honor, Respect and Worship. So, there is no conflict in
my participating in the Public Ceremonies of the Religio Romana (Religio
Noster). I am confident that the nation we are trying to build will
continue to respect Private Practice (Religio Privatus - Fides Meus).
But, should there continue to be Religious exclusion from some offices?
I believe so. (I will never be able to set aside Fides Meus to become
Flamen Mercurius, for example.) A Nation and State are built on Common
Goals and Stated Aims; Compromise and Accomodation are required to make
things work.

Will we stop trying, therefore, to fit each other in comfortable
niches? I think not. "Pigeon-holing" is human nature. As is trying to
change the 'habitat' in which we reside so it is more comfortable.
I'll just do my bit to help things along.

The discussion within this line of thought has been pleasantly cordial -
Mille Gratias.

-Sententia Meus-

Venator


Subject:	LDS Church
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:57:16 -0500 (EST)

The door to door workers are called in country missionaries, and they
pledge a year or so to the church to such work, usually before they go
onto cllege , military, etc. They can be persistant, but usually a
gentle "I am not interested" will deal with them. While I am not LDS, I
have dealt with them through BSA (Boy Scouts) for some years and they
all seemed to have a very close bond within their religion and a strong
belief. Actually not a bad combination or goal to strive for. While,
as I said, I do not ascribe to there beliefs, the church and those that
I have come in contact with across the country, have been hardworking,
kind and generous people who work hard within their religion, and just
as hard to further the communities in which they live.

M. Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:08:31 -0500 (EST)

Now that is realy interesting! I know about the Club because my wife
is a travel manager, but my impression from those who had gone was that
it was a vaacation to live through the year for! The closest I ever got
was next door, but there didnt seem to be much outside activity.

Of course, wife swapping can be quite interesting if that is your bag.
I got into that in the British Navy at Malta. I guess dart tournements
and curried chicken get monotonous after a while but it was REALLY new
to me!!!!

M. Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Terminology (wandering)
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:11:59 -0800

Pythia wrote:

> From: Pythia kingan@--------
>
> Razenna wrote:
>
> That appears to be part of the history of "schmuck". In
> > Yiddish /shmuk/ is a nasty word. In German it belongs to the group of words to
> > describe "Rich Folk", like ostentaiously dressed with jewelry. Such an Overlord to
> > the Poor Folk would be a /shmuk/.
>
> Have you ever heard of the "male member" referred to as "the Family
> Jewels"? Shmuck means jewel.
> In fact, I have a box of Christmas tree ornaments from Germany, and the
> box is clearly labelled Baumshmucken,
> "tree jewels".(At least I HOPE thats what it means! LOL, No, it really
> does!)
>
> Best, Pythia
>

That's what I am talking about, O Pythia! And the Tannenbaum decorationsillustrate my
point. Your tree will be "geschmuecket", "Highly decorated", like a 1890 grand dame with
all the "family jewells" hanging from everywhere she can put them. So the armende yid
sees the rich folk go into the fancy restaurant and says, "That's a real schmuck!" And
nobody will argue.


Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:45:20 -0500

Dexippus@-------- wrote:
>
>
> Well...speaking as someone who went to Club Hedonism in Jamaica, please allow
> me to answer that. Those clubs are not for true Hedonists! They are for
> bored corporate types who don't get out much and want to live out a wife
> swapping fantasy!
>
> Oh what a horrible vacation that was! But the cute cuban boy serving me
> drinks was quite a treat! : )
>
> --Dexippus

Is anyone but me absolutely hysterical with laughter at imagining Dex
let loose among the stuffed-shirt corporate wife-swappers and their
bored ladies? would this give them a new perspective on life or WHAT??

Dex, I hope you got your money from THAT vacation refunded!

-- Flavia Claudia
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
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> <a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.


Subject:	Re: Men beware
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:52:09 -0500

You guys might not want to read the following reply without a stiff
drink first...
>
> From: M--------2Two@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-12-12 10:24:04 EST, you write:
>
> << And if you refuse to sign it - they send in "doctors" to tell you it's a
> medically necessary procedure, and if you don't get it done for your son,
> then
> he'll be damaged and scarred for life. >>
>

>
There is a men's group that is outraged that this procedure ws done on
them without their consent, and they've gone to some odd lengths (no
pun!) to rectify the situation. Reconstructive surgery, naturally, but
also a small device like a barbell attached to the penis in order to
stretch the skin and restore the appearance of an uncircumcised one.
(Hey, I'm just the reporter here!)

So if you don't have your kid circumcised, can it be done later if he
chooses?

Haven't seen one in a while, but assuming nothing much has changed,
-- Flavia Claudia


Subject:	Re: Men beware
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:44:23 EST

In a message dated 12/12/98 7:54:13 PM Central Standard Time,
m--------oon@-------- wr--------:

> So if you don't have your kid circumcised, can it be done later if he
> chooses?

Circumcision can be done at any time of life. Babies get no anesthesia for it
to be done, but older children and adults so (the ages old and FALSE theory
that A) babies nervous systems are not well developed and they can't feel it,
and B) they won't remember it when they get older, anyway). Origianlly, among
the Jewish tribes, it was a sacrifice demanded of them by their God, and a
sacrifice is only a sacrifice if you know what you're doing, so you'd have to
be an adult to be circumcised (IMO). I don't know how or why they started
doing it at age 8 days - or why the American medical system is so gung-ho on
the procedure. It is a cosmetic operation in many instances, and as far as I
know, only the Jewish religion requires circumcision as part of the beliefs.

Secunda Floria Zonara