Subject:	Re: Terminology (wandering)
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:40:30 +0000

Razenna wrote:

That appears to be part of the history of "schmuck". In
> Yiddish /shmuk/ is a nasty word. In German it belongs to the group of words to
> describe "Rich Folk", like ostentaiously dressed with jewelry. Such an Overlord to
> the Poor Folk would be a /shmuk/.


Have you ever heard of the "male member" referred to as "the Family
Jewels"? Shmuck means jewel.
In fact, I have a box of Christmas tree ornaments from Germany, and the
box is clearly labelled Baumshmucken,
"tree jewels".(At least I HOPE thats what it means! LOL, No, it really
does!)

Best, Pythia

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:42:16 +0000

Dexippus@-------- wrote:
>


>
> Don't fret though Pythia! You are a Goddess no matter what you choose to call
> yourself! : )
>
> --Dexippus

Dex, you're a doll, I wish I could join you in NYC! Have fun.

Pythia

Subject:	Augery, imagination or both?
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:07:25 +0000

I just have to write about what I saw today! Kewler than kewl! We took
my daughter for an interview at Groton Academy, the boarding school in
Groton Massachusetts. As we were getting the tour of this classic
English style school, we were taken to the impressive stome chapel (The
school was founded as an Episcopal school).

As the student tour guide was describing the place I noticed a large
stone memorial plaque for one of the earlier headmasters, on the wall.
As I was trying to make out which winged saint was represented (I
figured, "it's a church, right?") It suddenly dawned on me that I was
looking at releif carving of Zeus, holding Pegasus' reigns in one hand
(Those were Pegasus' wings, I saw behind Him) and guiding the smaller
figure of the headmaster with the other hand! Hot damn! I said to the
tour guide, "this has to be a great place, they have a picture of Zeus
in the church!"

Later, at lunch in a small restaurant, I looked at my daughter and
noticed she was wearing a necklace with a bead decorated with a stroke
of lightening. Then I looked over her head. She was sitting under a
print of an owl, the totem of Athena!

Best, Pythia

Subject:	Re: Terminology (wandering)
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:03:42 -0500

Salvete omnes

"gentile" is not a Hebrew word. It comes from "gens", a word that we should
know around here.

Someone could perhaps believe that the word was Hebrew only because it is
used in English translations of Judaic literature (such as the Bible) to
identify non-Jews.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
-----Original Message-----
From: Raz-------- raz--------@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Saturday, December 12, 1998 1:59 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Terminology (wandering)


:From: Raz-------- raz--------@--------
:
:
:
:Dexippus@-------- wrote:
:
:> From: Dexippus@--------
:>
:> In a m--------g--------t--------2/12/98 12:26:40 PM EST, al--------us@--------
writes:
:>
:> << Yes..Gentile referred to unclean....it was not a positive term...but a
term
:> used
:> to separate Jews from Non-Jews espcially the Samaratins...in Northern
:> Israel...after the fall of the Northern Kingdom, because they called
:> themselves
:> Jews initially.....so...we had to separate the us from everyone else. >>
:>
:> Sulla...again...thanks for the education. You've been most helpful : )
:>
:> --Dexippus
:> One clean gentile
:
:I'd still like to know something of the history of the word, it etimology.
It
:sure looks Latin in origin, not Hebraic. One of the things I learned in my
Anthro
:Linquistics class was to Never trust the folk history of a word. It might
be
:correct, but chances were it ain't. Does anyone know the Hebrew root word
for
:this Latin sounding word? If "gentile" was supposed to come from a later
period
:than 6th Cent bce, like 3rd Cent ce, I could see it being a backward slap
at the
:oppressors [;-)]. That appears to be part of the history of "schmuck". In
:Yiddish /shmuk/ is a nasty word. In German it belongs to the group of
words to
:describe "Rich Folk", like ostentaiously dressed with jewelry. Such an
Overlord to
:the Poor Folk would be a /shmuk/.
:
:
:------------------------------------------------------------------------
:Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
:service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
:<a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
:

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:23:35 -0500

Salvete Dexippe et alii

:
:<< Some/most people will call them all Pagans because
: they don't know any better. "Hindu" " Shinto" "Ifa" "Ah, there all just
: Pagans." But we know better. >>
:
:Yes...this is true.
:
:--Dexippus

I am glad that you agree that "pagan" does not accurately identify any of
those religions but is rather used as a blanket term to cover 'em all up.

This position rather undermines the validity of "pagan" for describing Nova
Roma; but, someone did tell me in a private e-mail that he found Nova Roma
by searching the web for references to "pagan", thus showing that someone in
search of the Gods of Rome can find NR by means of this word. For this if
no other reason I see that the word should be left in use in our literature.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm heading back to my pagan hills before the
lictors can drag me up to the virtual Tarpeian Rock.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
:

Subject:	Re: Screwballism
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 02:08:38 -0500

michael marconi wrote:
>
> Salvete!
>
> I had been reading the mailing and was surprised to see that a
> certain number of our citizens think highly of hedonism and its'
> self-indulgent pursuit of pleasure as a way of life.

I see it's time for another course on "The uses of humor and how to
recognize it."

> What a shame! If it was true that the early Romans practiced
> hedonism, than that was their own misguided, selfish and egotistical
> doings. We, being the "New Rome" must not sink to that low of a moral
> standard or we to shall surely crumble.

I guess that's me and you, Dex, with our low moral standards! Where are
those nuns with the knuckle-rulers when you need 'em? Thank the gods
there's someone willing to set the high moral tone we need around here!
Oh, if only Cato were to return and lead us to righteous glory against
the modern Carthage!


-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Screwballism
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 03:56:56 EST

In a message dated 98-12-13 02:11:01 EST, you write:

<< I guess that's me and you, Dex, with our low moral standards! >>

OH OH and me and me!!!!!!!!!

Remember now, I am legally married but neither of my children are my
husbands.....OK...not EITHER husbands!!!

Plus I just married my dear Dex, so now I got 2 husbands....WOW

Ya can't keep up with me without a scorecard!!!!!!

Crys -- Miz Morals (or is that Morales??? No....Neither husband is Hispanic)

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:28:30 EST

In a message dated 12/13/98 12:46:58 AM Central Standard Time, mdm8@--------
writes:

>
> I had been reading the mailing and was surprised to see that a certain
> number
> of our citizens think highly of hedonism and its' self-indulgent pursuit of
> pleasure as a way of life.
> What a shame!


I don't think it's a shame. I think the pursuit of pleasure is the ultimate
aim and purpose in life. I know I certainly wouldn't strive to live a life of
pain and suffering. I am certainly not thrilled with the prospect of being
rewarded with lashes for any effort or job I may choose to undertake. I refuse
to do any job whose ultimate end is agony and despair. I LIKE receiving a
paycheck so I can go out and make my life easier, to indulge in the pleasures
and luxuries that make me happy. I feel good when I can pay my bills on time
and in full. I revel in sharing my wealth (such as it is) and leading others
along the path of pleasure. I see nothing shameful in hedonism. Without it -
I wouldn't have a roof over my head, comfortable clothes to wear, food to eat,
a vacuum cleaner, a TV, a computer (how hedonistic can one get!!), a car, or
any of life's other material pleasures. I wouldn't have the opportunity to
meet the people I have met, or to learn of new indulgences (chimineas!!). My
whole life's goal has always been to relax and have time to have fun - and I
snatch the opportunity whenever I can. Without hedonism as a life goal, I
would be: A) dead, most likely, for I would not have received the medical
treatments I needed to survive, B) living in a ramshackle hut somewhere with a
dirt floor and a leaky roof (been there - didn't like it at all), C) have a
swarm of unwanted children and still be pregnant, D) eat turnips and rutabagas
and okra and zucchini as main foodstuffs, and E) be bound to an area I could
walk around in. No thank you. If striving to be free from pain and to have
fun, to reach for pleasure, is hedonistic - then paint me a hedonist!!!!!

Secunda Floria Zonara

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:55:15 -0800

Salvete Omnes,

I believe that there is nothing wrong with trying to maximize pleasure and minimize
pain,
That in essence would be hedonism. Tell me of a person, ok..execpt maybe Cato the
Younger
who wanted to increase the pain in their life. But, hedonism needs to be tempered
with Reason.
I believe that there is a balance...a golden mean (yes Aristotleanism) between
excessive
behavior and Reason. Otherwise....why live if you cannot enjoy life! Life is to be
enjoyed
in its fullest! :)

Ok..I am off my Soapbox! :) [the one that was recovered from Ericius and Cicero]

Lucius Corenelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

michael marconi wrote:

> From: michael marconi mdm8@--------
>
> Salvete!
>
> The acting out or the living of a 'pure' hedonistic lifestyle is not prudent,
> and in the long run is very detrimental to the social and spiritual morals that
> our' New Rome' needs to have in order for it to thrive as a living an viable
> reality. When one's personal needs mainly revolve around his/her own fetishes
> without the desire and/or the want for restraint(s) -- than this person would add
> little to the overall community and could rightly be labeled as being
> self-centered and usually amoral. Greed did not make the Romans great; family
> values and the sense of a strong community were the cement that held Rome
> together-- not the hedonist! Maybe one of the reasons the Roman Empire fell were
> that the Gods lost favor with their hedonistic practices and they (Gods) were
> disheartened by the individuals' attempt to pervert traditions.
>
> Valete
>
> Lucius Marconius Romanus
>
> Nodigio@-------- wrote:
>
> > From: Nodigio@--------
> >
> > In a message dated 12/13/98 12:46:58 AM Central Standard Time, mdm8@--------
> > writes:
> >
> > >
> > > I had been reading the mailing and was surprised to see that a certain
> > > number
> > > of our citizens think highly of hedonism and its' self-indulgent pursuit of
> > > pleasure as a way of life.
> > > What a shame!
> >
> > I don't think it's a shame. I think the pursuit of pleasure is the ultimate
> > aim and purpose in life. I know I certainly wouldn't strive to live a life of
> > pain and suffering. I am certainly not thrilled with the prospect of being
> > rewarded with lashes for any effort or job I may choose to undertake. I refuse
> > to do any job whose ultimate end is agony and despair. I LIKE receiving a
> > paycheck so I can go out and make my life easier, to indulge in the pleasures
> > and luxuries that make me happy. I feel good when I can pay my bills on time
> > and in full. I revel in sharing my wealth (such as it is) and leading others
> > along the path of pleasure. I see nothing shameful in hedonism. Without it -
> > I wouldn't have a roof over my head, comfortable clothes to wear, food to eat,
> > a vacuum cleaner, a TV, a computer (how hedonistic can one get!!), a car, or
> > any of life's other material pleasures. I wouldn't have the opportunity to
> > meet the people I have met, or to learn of new indulgences (chimineas!!). My
> > whole life's goal has always been to relax and have time to have fun - and I
> > snatch the opportunity whenever I can. Without hedonism as a life goal, I
> > would be: A) dead, most likely, for I would not have received the medical
> > treatments I needed to survive, B) living in a ramshackle hut somewhere with a
> > dirt floor and a leaky roof (been there - didn't like it at all), C) have a
> > swarm of unwanted children and still be pregnant, D) eat turnips and rutabagas
> > and okra and zucchini as main foodstuffs, and E) be bound to an area I could
> > walk around in. No thank you. If striving to be free from pain and to have
> > fun, to reach for pleasure, is hedonistic - then paint me a hedonist!!!!!
> >
> > Secunda Floria Zonara
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > At last! The perfect gifts for baseball fans...or anyone. Merchandise from
> > the Sonoma County Crushers, champions of the Western Baseball League (USA).
> > Go to <a href="http://www.icatmall.com/crushers" target="_top" >http://www.icatmall.com/crushers</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> At last! The perfect gifts for baseball fans...or anyone. Merchandise from
> the Sonoma County Crushers, champions of the Western Baseball League (USA).
> Go to <a href="http://www.icatmall.com/crushers" target="_top" >http://www.icatmall.com/crushers</a>

Subject:	Re: Hedonism (not really...)
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:13:02 -0800

...unless freedom of speech is a hedonistic pursuit. Actually, is
is more often the opposite of hedonism since speaking one's mind
is usually akin to standing up in a free-fire zone. Anyway...

This started out as a salute to

L. Cornelius Sulla -- the Inventor of the Collapsible Fire
Resistant Roman Soapbox.

Io! Evoe!

C. Aelius Ericius
(erstwhile friend of the accused)

Subject:	The Oath of Office for Magistrates of Nova Roma
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:55:13 -0800

Salvete, Quirites!

Today is the Ides of December. A number of citizens will be
entering into the office of magistrate for the coming year (1999
c.e, 2752 a.u.c.). I thought I would post the Oath of Office to
the List so that all might see it. Yes, everybody can (?) access
the web site, but I've read here a number of times that some
people had not seen this or that. So, here it is. In the Old
Republic all the magistrates for the new year would process to
the Forum at first light on New Year's Day for the rituals of
investiture. McCullough begins one of her books with the event.
I hope the omens for our new year are propitious.

Valete,
C. Aelius Ericius



Oath of Office

I, (name) do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova
Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people
and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, (name) swear to do honor to the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and
to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, (name) further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of (title of magistracy) to the
best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their
will and favor, do I accept the position of (title of magistracy)
and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities

attendant thereto.

Subject:	Re: Terminology (wandering)
From:	Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:47:01 -0500

Razenna wrote:

>I'd still like to know something of the history of the word, it etimology.
It
>sure looks Latin in origin, not Hebraic. One of the things I learned in
my Anthro
>Linquistics class was to Never trust the folk history of a word. It might
be
>correct, but chances were it ain't. Does anyone know the Hebrew root word
for
>this Latin sounding word? If "gentile" was supposed to come from a later
period
>than 6th Cent bce, like 3rd Cent ce, I could see it being a backward slap
at the
>oppressors [;-)].

The English word "gentile" is derived from Latin "gentilis", member of a
gens (or of a people) (Chambers' Dictionary). What I don't know is what the
Greek (New Testament) or Hebrew (Old Testament) words were which the
translators of the King James Bible in the early 1600s used "gentile" to
translate, or whether "gentilis" had been the Latin translation used by
Jerome's "Vulgate" (around 400 CE) in either case.

The use of "gentile" I referred to in the post that started this particular
hare running is from Peter Brown, "Authority and the Sacred: Aspects of the
Christianisation of the Roman World" (Cambridge, CUP, 1995) p. 3. The
passage is rather fun and I therefore quote more of it:

"Some time in fourth-century Britain, Annianus, son of Matutina, had a
purse of six silver pieces stolen from him. He placed a leaden curse in the
sacred spring of Sulis Minerva at Bath, in order to bring the miscreant to
the attention of the goddess. On this tablet, the traditional list of
antithetical categories, that would constitute an exhaustive description of
all possible suspects - 'whether man or woman, boy or girl, slave or free'
- begins with a new antithesis 'seu gentilis seu christianus quaecumque',
'whether a gentile or a christian, whomsoever'. ... Christianisation, at
the shrine of Sulis Minerva at Bath, means knowledge of yet another
world-wide category of persons whose deeds were open to the eye of an
effective goddess of the post-Constantinian age."

Here "gentilis" is plainly not a christian term of abuse, right? (Unless
christians also asked Sulis Minerva to curse people, which, on the more
general story Brown tells, is quite possible).

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:12:31 PST

>> I had been reading the mailing and was surprised to see that a
certain
>> number
>> of our citizens think highly of hedonism and its' self-indulgent
pursuit of
>> pleasure as a way of life.
>> What a shame!

Gleh.

Hedonism, like Stoicism, is one of those words used to describe
something it never, originally, described. Just as Stoics aren't
emotional, but claim to have control over their emotions (ha!), so
Hedonists are not pleasure seeking, but consider pleasure the highest
good.

Pleasure, they say, is the highest good, but that doesn't mean that one
goes and wallows in it. Some pleasures of better than others.
Determining which pleasures are worthy of persuing is the goal of
hedonism -- sex is great, but only lasts a few seconds. Reading a poem
can effect a whole life. Does that make the poem better than sex,
despite its being less intense?

--M. Gladius

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:14:14 PST

> Salvete!
>
> The acting out or the living of a 'pure' hedonistic lifestyle is
not prudent,
>and in the long run is very detrimental to the social and spiritual
morals that
>our' New Rome' needs to have in order for it to thrive as a living an
viable
>reality. When one's personal needs mainly revolve around his/her own
fetishes
>without the desire and/or the want for restraint(s) -- than this person
would add
>little to the overall community and could rightly be labeled as being
>self-centered and usually amoral. Greed did not make the Romans great;
family
>values and the sense of a strong community were the cement that held
Rome
>together-- not the hedonist! Maybe one of the reasons the Roman Empire
fell were
>that the Gods lost favor with their hedonistic practices and they
(Gods) were
>disheartened by the individuals' attempt to pervert traditions.
>
>Valete
>
>Lucius Marconius Romanus

If the gods ever lost favor, it was because the Romans stopped making
the appropriate offerings. I don't think the gods ever lost favor -- I
think Rome lost the gods, not vice versa.

Again, you mischaracterize hedonism.

--Patrick

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 15:49:19 -0500

michael marconi wrote:
>
> From: michael marconi mdm8@--------
>
> Salvete!
>
> The acting out or the living of a 'pure' hedonistic lifestyle is not prudent,
> and in the long run is very detrimental to the social and spiritual morals that
> our' New Rome' needs to have in order for it to thrive as a living an viable
> reality.

Thank you SO much for setting your own standards for morality for the
rest of us. We uneducated masses so appreciate it. Where would we be
without you and Pat Robertson?

When one's personal needs mainly revolve around his/her own fetishes

Oooh...sounds like a bit of personal relevance here!

> without the desire and/or the want for restraint(s)

Restraints? Dex (oh mighty bondage diva!), you field THIS one!

-- than this person would add
> little to the overall community and could rightly be labeled as being
> self-centered and usually amoral. Greed did not make the Romans great;

But it did help expand the provinces.

family
> values and the sense of a strong community were the cement that held Rome
> together-- not the hedonist!

"Family values"! Ah, the buzzword of choice for the self-sanctified
egoist.


Maybe one of the reasons the Roman Empire fell were
> that the Gods lost favor with their hedonistic practices and they (Gods) were
> disheartened by the individuals' attempt to pervert traditions.

>
As for Marconius' presumption to speak for the Gods...isn't this a job
for the Augurs? Augurs? Any imput from Olympus?

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 15:51:59 -0500

Patrick Dunn wrote:
>
>>
> Pleasure, they say, is the highest good, but that doesn't mean that one
> goes and wallows in it. Some pleasures of better than others.
> Determining which pleasures are worthy of persuing is the goal of
> hedonism -- sex is great, but only lasts a few seconds.

Um. Not if you're doing it right.

Reading a poem
> can effect a whole life. Does that make the poem better than sex,
> despite its being less intense?

Depends. If the poem is one of Ovid's, you can easily combine the two
activities.
>
-- F. Claudia

Subject:	Re: The Oath of Office for Magistrates of Nova Roma
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:52:00 -0500 (EST)

Thanks for the thought!! It was a nice touch! Are we going to have
some kind of Internet ceremony on First Night? I suppose I should be
directing this question to the Consuls, but you always seem like you are
up on what is being planned.

Is there some sort of ceremony that I should do at home here, at a given
time to do honor to the Gods properly?

What did the officers that were appointed last year do upon appointment?

Are the consuls (newly elected) going to try and run this outfit with
the few who have stood for office or will they appeal to the Senate to
make appointments to fill out those positions for which no-one has run?
I am asking questions at this point, so please don't anybody out there
get upset. Are the old consuls before stepping down, going to complete
the work of the last year before stepping down, or pass those items on
to the newly elected consuls?

I know for a fact that there are two sodalicums pending before the
Senate for approval, and I am sure there is probably other business
pending as well, how is that to be dealt with?

I have some other questions as well, but i am hoing that something will
be put on the list about after-election procedures and how each of the
newly elected officers will pick up their dties and how that is to be
done.

Your Servant;
M, Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: A story about labels, racism and sterotypes
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:50:04 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/12/98 12:42:00 PM EST, M--------2Two@-------- writes:

<< Now...I don't have to change
Gens do I?? >>

Nah...why get the lawyers involved!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Since ya done brought it up......
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:51:14 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/12/98 12:49:09 PM EST, M--------2Two@-------- writes:

<< Congrats!!! We have gone from a discussionon Paganism to whether or not I
sholud have Lapis circumsized. Any suggestions?? >>


Well...I would offer my suggestions but some might find them distasteful. So
with respect to the list, I will remain silent on this issue : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:00:46 EST

In a message dated 12/12/98 5:08:52 PM EST, jmath669642reng@-------- --------es:

<< Now that is realy interesting! I know about the Club because my wife
is a travel manager, but my impression from those who had gone was that
it was a vaacation to live through the year for! >>

I guess if that's your thing. Although look at it from my stand point:

Vacationer: "Hey boy...wanna $#*& my wife while I watch?"

Me: "Uh...no...I'd rather $#*& you while your wife plays tennis."

Vacationer: "Uh..no..sorry. I'm not into that"

Me: "Oh well...NEXT!"

LOL : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Augery, imagination or both?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:02:30 EST

In a message dated 12/12/98 5:51:41 PM EST, kingan@-------- writes:

<< Later, at lunch in a small restaurant, I looked at my daughter and
noticed she was wearing a necklace with a bead decorated with a stroke
of lightening. Then I looked over her head. She was sitting under a
print of an owl, the totem of Athena! >>

Enroll your daughter! The gods have spoken!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:06:13 EST

In a message dated 12/12/98 8:50:25 PM EST, m--------oon@-------- wr--------:

<< Is anyone but me absolutely hysterical with laughter at imagining Dex
let loose among the stuffed-shirt corporate wife-swappers and their
bored ladies? would this give them a new perspective on life or WHAT??>>

Yeah..it was a real drag (no pun intended). See my other post in response to
Venator. Oh those corporates think they're so "hip" as long as their wives
are doing the bending.

<<Dex, I hope you got your money from THAT vacation refunded! >>


Nope...the travel agency wouldn't refund it saying that they can't guarantee
"a good time". So since then all my travel agents have been gay or gay
friendly. This way they know not to send me to "Club Breeder" again (no
offense to all).


--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Men beware
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:11:11 EST

In a message dated 12/12/98 8:54:15 PM EST, m--------oon@-------- wr--------:

<< There is a men's group that is outraged that this procedure ws done on
them without their consent, and they've gone to some odd lengths (no
pun!) to rectify the situation. Reconstructive surgery, naturally, but
also a small device like a barbell attached to the penis in order to
stretch the skin and restore the appearance of an uncircumcised one.
(Hey, I'm just the reporter here!) >>


This is true. My friend had the procedure done. He's really into leather and
body piercing and didn't think it would be much different than the Prince
Albert he already has. He showed it to me. Looks like it's uncircumcized,
but it doesn't cover the whole head (sorry for being graphic, but we're all
adults right?).

I sometimes am a bit disgruntled at having been circumcized at an age that I
could not consent. For me, I can see being uncircumsized as much a
proclamation for being a Pagan as being circumcized is for being Jewish. But
I don't think I'm gonna go for this procedure. Such a big issue over a little
tissue.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:15:44 EST

In a message dated 12/13/98 1:26:15 AM EST, rmerullo@-------- writes:

<< I am glad that you agree that "pagan" does not accurately identify any of
those religions but is rather used as a blanket term to cover 'em all up.

This position rather undermines the validity of "pagan" for describing Nova
Roma; but, someone did tell me in a private e-mail that he found Nova Roma
by searching the web for references to "pagan", thus showing that someone in
search of the Gods of Rome can find NR by means of this word. For this if
no other reason I see that the word should be left in use in our literature.
>>

Of course. The term is used to describe those pre-christian religions of
Europe. It doesn't really reflect Asian, Native American, or others. Sorry
if I was unclear.

Have fun in the Hills.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Screwballism
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:21:48 EST

In a message dated 12/13/98 2:11:01 AM EST, m--------oon@-------- wr--------:

<< I guess that's me and you, Dex, with our low moral standards! Where are
those nuns with the knuckle-rulers when you need 'em? Thank the gods
there's someone willing to set the high moral tone we need around here!
Oh, if only Cato were to return and lead us to righteous glory against
the modern Carthage! >>


Yes I have often been called the "bad influence". Oh well...it's a role I
play well. See my last post regarding over endulgence and self denial.

No Nuns please! Been there...done that...hung her up by her habit!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:20:09 EST

In a message dated 12/13/98 1:46:38 AM EST, mdm8@-------- writes:

<< I had been reading the mailing and was surprised to see that a certain
number
of our citizens think highly of hedonism and its' self-indulgent pursuit of
pleasure as a way of life.
What a shame! If it was true that the early Romans practiced hedonism,
than
that was their own misguided, selfish and egotistical doings. We, being the
"New
Rome" must not sink to that low of a moral standard or we to shall surely
crumble. >>


Well...as someone who endulges in the spirit of Hedonism on occasion, let me
answer with a quote from a very wise man who came from a life of plenty but
gave it all up for a life of self sacrifice:

"Be it known that neither the over endulgence nor the denial of the flesh
shalt bring enlightenment but that which can only be attained by treading the
middle road. Everything in moderation." -- Siddarta Gautama, The Buddha.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: The Oath of Office for Magistrates of Nova Roma
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:25:41 EST

In a m--------g--------t--------2/13/98 1:55:39 PM EST, raz--------@-------- writ--------br>
<< Today is the Ides of December. A number of citizens will be
entering into the office of magistrate for the coming year (1999
c.e, 2752 a.u.c.). >>

Who won the elections? Although with some running unopposed it would be easy
to tell, it still would be nice to have an official victory listing.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:31:19 EST

In a message dated 12/13/98 3:51:24 PM EST, m--------oon@-------- wr--------:

<< Thank you SO much for setting your own standards for morality for the
rest of us. We uneducated masses so appreciate it. Where would we be
without you and Pat Robertson? >>

Flavia...you and I are hatched from the same egg! Go on with your bad self,
girl!


<<> without the desire and/or the want for restraint(s)

Restraints? Dex (oh mighty bondage diva!), you field THIS one!>>

Oh I have restraints! Wat'cha need girl? Arms? Legs? Collars? Dog
leashes? Chest harness? Gential harnesses? I have you...wat'cha need?

<<As for Marconius' presumption to speak for the Gods...isn't this a job
for the Augurs? Augurs? Any imput from Olympus?>>

The official word from Olympus is: "Eat, Drink, and Be Merry! And take a
daily enema!"

--Dexippus : )

Subject:	Help with Latin
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:36:28 EST

Ok all you latin speakers. I need some help...

I need the Latin translation for "We have people for that"

It's the slogan for the SCA's Diva Household. We're looking for the Latin
phrasing as our motto.

Thanks all in advance.

--Dexippus
Divus Maximus Extremus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:56:43 -0500 (EST)

Not only did you in every liklihood spoil the hell out of his vacation
(and his wife's) but he probably had a few sleepless nights wondering
who you might tell or what you might say in public about he (and his
wife).LOL!!!

The first time I ever met (saw) a female impersonator was just outside
the Naval Base in East Philly. There was a very good sandwich shop
where we used to pick up sandwiches after the evening meal, in prep for
the inevitable card games. This guy was dressed in a ballet tu-tu and
ballet slippers. He was, I later found out, a dock-worker and he looked
it with a very muscular figure, a lot of black body hair and a heavy 5
o' clock shadow. He was playing cards with the owners of the place and
we walked in, myself and a new kid even greener than I was. Thank God I
had the good sense to keep my mouth shut but my companion did not. He
bellowed out Gee Jim, there's a Q----!! The lovely would be lady folded
his cards, walked over to my companion, grabbed him by the front of his
undress jumper and slammed him against the wall, and asked a couple of
obvious qustions about noses, blood and so forth. The Kid was instantly
terrified and speechless. I told the guy that my sailor friend was just
a green kid and didn't have much sense, and the guy mumbled something
about damn swabbies, told the counterman to give these damned sailors
their sandwiches first and get them "Outa There."

Needles to say, the young sailor didn't go with me after sandwiches any
more, and I always got long pretty well with the guy. He even came down
to the ship's open house at my invitation, dressed in men's clothes for
the occasion. He confided to me that he wasn't all that comfortable,
but wished us a "Great Voyage to the West Coast." He was ex-Navy but
had some different ideas about his life. Neat guy to have on your side
down by the civilian docks along the Delaware River!! (-: (-:

M. Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Morality was Hedonism
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:21:18 -0500

Salvete Luci Marcone et alii

Your post brings up an interesting thought: how conservative/liberal was
the morality of Roma in the days of the Republic? How well do those terms
apply to Roman morality?

My own view is that a lot of the wild partying imagery, vomitoria and
endless feasting and orgies etc., is due to some Roman authors' recording
excesses of a few emperors. I rather doubt that most Roman families would
seem morally loose by contemporary standards.

What do some of the NR historians have to say about this? Callide, are you
around nowadays?

: What a shame! If it was true that the early Romans practiced hedonism,
than
:that was their own misguided, selfish and egotistical doings. We, being the
"New
:Rome" must not sink to that low of a moral standard or we to shall surely
crumble.


Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Turnips - good Roman food was Hedonism
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:30:58 -0500

Salvete Floria et alii

-

:From: Nodigio@--------
:
:In a message dated 12/13/98 12:46:58 AM Central Standard Time,
mdm8@--------
:writes:
:
:> of our citizens think highly of hedonism and its' self-indulgent pursuit
of
:> pleasure as a way of life.
:> What a shame!
:
:
:I don't think it's a shame. I think the pursuit of pleasure is the
ultimate
:aim and purpose in life. I know I certainly wouldn't strive to live a life
of
:pain and suffering. I am certainly not thrilled with the prospect of being
Without hedonism as a life goal, I
:would be: A) dead, most likely, for I would not have received the medical
:treatments I needed to survive, B) living in a ramshackle hut somewhere
with a
:dirt floor and a leaky roof (been there - didn't like it at all), C) have a
:swarm of unwanted children and still be pregnant, D) eat turnips and
rutabagas
:and okra and zucchini as main foodstuffs, and E) be bound to an area I
could
:walk around in. No thank you. If striving to be free from pain and to
have
:fun, to reach for pleasure, is hedonistic - then paint me a hedonist!!!!!

Hey! Who do you think you are to slander turnips and zucchini!

My mashed turnip is appealing to almost everyone who has ever tried it, and
zucchini can be the base of a lot of tasty dishes.

Think before you malign innocent, healthful and defenseless vegetables!
:
:Secunda Floria Zonara
:
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
seemingly opinionated about everything

Subject:	Gentile etymology
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:44:05 -0500

Salvete Erici et Scaevola Magister et alii



:From: Mike Ma--------r MikeMa--------r@--------
:
:Razenna wrote:
:
:>I'd still like to know something of the history of the word, it etimology.
: It
:>sure looks Latin in origin, not Hebraic. One of the things I learned in
:
:The English word "gentile" is derived from Latin "gentilis", member of a
:gens (or of a people) (Chambers' Dictionary). What I don't know is what the
:Greek (New Testament) or Hebrew (Old Testament) words were which the
:translators of the King James Bible in the early 1600s used "gentile" to
:translate, or whether "gentilis" had been the Latin translation used by
:Jerome's "Vulgate" (around 400 CE) in either case.
:
Is it possible that "gentile" became used this way because early Christians
were adopting Biblical names in departure from the Roman gens-based naming
conventions?

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:46:26 -0500

Salvete omnes

:hedonism -- sex is great, but only lasts a few seconds. Reading a poem
:can effect a whole life. Does that make the poem better than sex,
:despite its being less intense?
:


Call me illiterate if you like, but I have yet to find a poem that good.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:05:46 -0800

Hold it..that is not Hedonism...but Utilitiarism...in particular John Stuart
Mill...there is a difference here....you are crossing philosophical
skills...please Read John Stuart Mill's - On Utilitarianism. He uses a very
similar example in his work.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

Gaius Marius Merullus wrote:

> From: "Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
>
> Salvete omnes
>
> :hedonism -- sex is great, but only lasts a few seconds. Reading a poem
> :can effect a whole life. Does that make the poem better than sex,
> :despite its being less intense?
> :
>
> Call me illiterate if you like, but I have yet to find a poem that good.
>
> Valete
>
> Gaius Marius Merullus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> At last! The perfect gifts for baseball fans...or anyone. Merchandise from
> the Sonoma County Crushers, champions of the Western Baseball League (USA).
> Go to <a href="http://www.icatmall.com/crushers" target="_top" >http://www.icatmall.com/crushers</a>

Subject:	What's Next???
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:30:29 -0500 (EST)

For some reason this didn't "take"when I sent it previously. Sorry for
the cluttering.

M. Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	ATTN: Cassius-voter code???
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:37:04 EST

I sent the following on 12/7/98 at 18:02 EST. To date it has not yet been
read. Sorry to clutter up the public list with what was intended to be a
private message, but at this point I am at a loss as to how else to obtain my
voter code. Truth be told, I am not even sure if it is a moot point yet or
not. Hopefully this forum will get a reply, either from cassius or someone
else with access to the information I need.

Thanks!

Priscilla Vedia Serena

<<Can you send me your "real" name and address? >>

Karen Bloch
e-m-------- Justicecmo@--------
350 Baldwin Rd Apt C9
Parsippany, NJ 07054

<<Oh, you DID become a Citizen before the end of November, right?>>

I'll say so! LOL Would have thought the *Vedia* might have struck a chord.
Hope things are well up North.

Give my best to Pat as well! TTYS!

Karen/Priscilla :P

Subject:	Re: ATTN: Cassius-voter code???
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:56:50 EST

In a message dated 12/13/98 9:38:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JusticeCMO@-------- writes:

<<
I sent the following on 12/7/98 at 18:02 EST. To date it has not yet been
read. Sorry to clutter up the public list with what was intended to be a
private message, but at this point I am at a loss as to how else to obtain my
voter code. Truth be told, I am not even sure if it is a moot point yet or
not. Hopefully this forum will get a reply, either from cassius or someone
else with access to the information I need.
>>

Aw, crap. Sorry about this, Karen... I just found your reply letter from 12/7
sitting in my unread mail! (Everything else was routine list chatter I hadn't
gotten to.) I'll Email you privately with your voter code right after
finishing here. My apologies! Don't worry, there's still time to vote. I won't
actually get to the official tally until after work tomorrow evening.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Since ya done brought it up......
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:36:11 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/13/98 4:53:12 PM Centr--------t--------rd Time, Dexippus@--------
writes:

> Well...I would offer my suggestions but some might find them distasteful.
So
> with respect to the list, I will remain silent on this issue : )
>


Aawwww - speak up!! I've certainly aired MY views!! And I want to know
yours, too. Particularly as I presume you have said appendage? I don't, so
my opinions are as relevant as a mermaid's to a centaur's!

Secunda Floria Zonara

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:34:57 PST

>From: "Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:46:26 -0500
>Reply-to: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Hedonism
>
>From: "Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
>
>Salvete omnes
>
>:hedonism -- sex is great, but only lasts a few seconds. Reading a
poem
>:can effect a whole life. Does that make the poem better than sex,
>:despite its being less intense?
>:
>
>
>Call me illiterate if you like, but I have yet to find a poem that
good.
>
>Valete
>
>Gaius Marius Merullus

Never would I stoop to calling any citizen illiterate, no matter how I
may feel about poetry. Let me just assure you that I am torn over
whether a return of the proper worship of the gods, or a return of an
appreciation of poetry, will most benefit our society.

As far as the other threads which have grown out of this, let me just
say I'm disgusted that a discussion of philosophy so quickly dissolves
into nonsense and name calling. I am not repulsed by Dexippus (I myself
am gay), but by the lack of gravitas I see displayed about a matter our
spiritual ancestors considered of utmost importance. My stomach is
turned.

--M. Gladius

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:37:13 PST

>Hold it..that is not Hedonism...but Utilitiarism...in particular John
Stuart
>Mill...there is a difference here....you are crossing philosophical
>skills...please Read John Stuart Mill's - On Utilitarianism. He uses a
very
>similar example in his work.
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
>Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

I have, of course, read Mill. And Bentham. And Sartre. And Kant. And
Nietzsche. And Seneca. And Epictetus. And M. Aurelius. And, and,
and, and. . .





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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Hedonism

Salvete!

I had been reading the mailing and was surprised to see that a
certain number
of our citizens think highly of hedonism and its' self-indulgent pursuit
of
pleasure as a way of life.
What a shame! If it was true that the early Romans practiced
hedonism, than
that was their own misguided, selfish and egotistical doings. We, being
the "New
Rome" must not sink to that low of a moral standard or we to shall
surely crumble.
Think of the crazy people with their vile deeds that could one day lurk
the streets
of our "New Rome". Do we want that to happen -NO! You could pick up just
about any
Roman history book and read about the various screwballs that lowered
the moral and
dignity of the decent citizens of Rome-let us not repeat the sins of the
past.
Salvete

Lucius Marconius Romanus
Fortuna fortibus favet.

Claudia wrote:

> From: Claud----------------oon@--------
>
> Dexippus@-------- wrote:
> >
> >
> > Well...speaking as someone who went to Club Hedonism in Jamaica,
please allow
> > me to answer that. Those clubs are not for true Hedonists! They
are for
> > bored corporate types who don't get out much and want to live out a
wife
> > swapping fantasy!
> >
> > Oh what a horrible vacation that was! But the cute cuban boy
serving me
> > drinks was quite a treat! : )
> >
> > --Dexippus
>
> Is anyone but me absolutely hysterical with laughter at imagining Dex
> let loose among the stuffed-shirt corporate wife-swappers and their
> bored ladies? would this give them a new perspective on life or WHAT??
>
> Dex, I hope you got your money from THAT vacation refunded!
>
> -- Flavia Claudia
> >
> >
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>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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(USA).
> Go to <a href="http://www.icatmall.com/crushers" target="_top" >http://www.icatmall.com/crushers</a>

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Hedonism
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:14:14 PST

From: "Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------



> Salvete!
>
> The acting out or the living of a 'pure' hedonistic lifestyle is
not prudent,
>and in the long run is very detrimental to the social and spiritual
morals that
>our' New Rome' needs to have in order for it to thrive as a living an
viable
>reality. When one's personal needs mainly revolve around his/her own
fetishes
>without the desire and/or the want for restraint(s) -- than this person
would add
>little to the overall community and could rightly be labeled as being
>self-centered and usually amoral. Greed did not make the Romans great;
family
>values and the sense of a strong community were the cement that held
Rome
>together-- not the hedonist! Maybe one of the reasons the Roman Empire
fell were
>that the Gods lost favor with their hedonistic practices and they
(Gods) were
>disheartened by the individuals' attempt to pervert traditions.
>
>Valete
>
>Lucius Marconius Romanus

If the gods ever lost favor, it was because the Romans stopped making
the appropriate offerings. I don't think the gods ever lost favor -- I
think Rome lost the gods, not vice versa.

Again, you mischaracterize hedonism.

--Patrick


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I agree with Patrick.