Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	michael marconi mdm8@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:49:11 -0500

Salvete!

I had been reading the mailing and was surprised to see that a certain number
of our citizens think highly of hedonism and its' self-indulgent pursuit of
pleasure as a way of life.
What a shame! If it was true that the early Romans practiced hedonism, than
that was their own misguided, selfish and egotistical doings. We, being the "New
Rome" must not sink to that low of a moral standard or we to shall surely crumble.
Think of the crazy people with their vile deeds that could one day lurk the streets
of our "New Rome". Do we want that to happen -NO! You could pick up just about any
Roman history book and read about the various screwballs that lowered the moral and
dignity of the decent citizens of Rome-let us not repeat the sins of the past.
Salvete

Lucius Marconius Romanus
Fortuna fortibus favet.

Claudia wrote:

> From: Claud----------------oon@--------
>
> Dexippus@-------- wrote:
> >
> >
> > Well...speaking as someone who went to Club Hedonism in Jamaica, please allow
> > me to answer that. Those clubs are not for true Hedonists! They are for
> > bored corporate types who don't get out much and want to live out a wife
> > swapping fantasy!
> >
> > Oh what a horrible vacation that was! But the cute cuban boy serving me
> > drinks was quite a treat! : )
> >
> > --Dexippus
>
> Is anyone but me absolutely hysterical with laughter at imagining Dex
> let loose among the stuffed-shirt corporate wife-swappers and their
> bored ladies? would this give them a new perspective on life or WHAT??
>
> Dex, I hope you got your money from THAT vacation refunded!
>
> -- Flavia Claudia
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> > service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
> > <a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> At last! The perfect gifts for baseball fans...or anyone. Merchandise from
> the Sonoma County Crushers, champions of the Western Baseball League (USA).
> Go to <a href="http://www.icatmall.com/crushers" target="_top" >http://www.icatmall.com/crushers</a>

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	michael marconi mdm8@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:47:52 -0500

Salvete!

The acting out or the living of a 'pure' hedonistic lifestyle is not prudent,
and in the long run is very detrimental to the social and spiritual morals that
our' New Rome' needs to have in order for it to thrive as a living an viable
reality. When one's personal needs mainly revolve around his/her own fetishes
without the desire and/or the want for restraint(s) -- than this person would add
little to the overall community and could rightly be labeled as being
self-centered and usually amoral. Greed did not make the Romans great; family
values and the sense of a strong community were the cement that held Rome
together-- not the hedonist! Maybe one of the reasons the Roman Empire fell were
that the Gods lost favor with their hedonistic practices and they (Gods) were
disheartened by the individuals' attempt to pervert traditions.

Valete

Lucius Marconius Romanus

Nodigio@-------- wrote:

> From: Nodigio@--------
>
> In a message dated 12/13/98 12:46:58 AM Central Standard Time, mdm8@--------
> writes:
>
> >
> > I had been reading the mailing and was surprised to see that a certain
> > number
> > of our citizens think highly of hedonism and its' self-indulgent pursuit of
> > pleasure as a way of life.
> > What a shame!
>
> I don't think it's a shame. I think the pursuit of pleasure is the ultimate
> aim and purpose in life. I know I certainly wouldn't strive to live a life of
> pain and suffering. I am certainly not thrilled with the prospect of being
> rewarded with lashes for any effort or job I may choose to undertake. I refuse
> to do any job whose ultimate end is agony and despair. I LIKE receiving a
> paycheck so I can go out and make my life easier, to indulge in the pleasures
> and luxuries that make me happy. I feel good when I can pay my bills on time
> and in full. I revel in sharing my wealth (such as it is) and leading others
> along the path of pleasure. I see nothing shameful in hedonism. Without it -
> I wouldn't have a roof over my head, comfortable clothes to wear, food to eat,
> a vacuum cleaner, a TV, a computer (how hedonistic can one get!!), a car, or
> any of life's other material pleasures. I wouldn't have the opportunity to
> meet the people I have met, or to learn of new indulgences (chimineas!!). My
> whole life's goal has always been to relax and have time to have fun - and I
> snatch the opportunity whenever I can. Without hedonism as a life goal, I
> would be: A) dead, most likely, for I would not have received the medical
> treatments I needed to survive, B) living in a ramshackle hut somewhere with a
> dirt floor and a leaky roof (been there - didn't like it at all), C) have a
> swarm of unwanted children and still be pregnant, D) eat turnips and rutabagas
> and okra and zucchini as main foodstuffs, and E) be bound to an area I could
> walk around in. No thank you. If striving to be free from pain and to have
> fun, to reach for pleasure, is hedonistic - then paint me a hedonist!!!!!
>
> Secunda Floria Zonara
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> At last! The perfect gifts for baseball fans...or anyone. Merchandise from
> the Sonoma County Crushers, champions of the Western Baseball League (USA).
> Go to <a href="http://www.icatmall.com/crushers" target="_top" >http://www.icatmall.com/crushers</a>

Subject:	Re: Augery, imagination or both?
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:47:47 +0000

Dexippus@-------- wrote:
>
> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> In a message dated 12/12/98 5:51:41 PM EST, kingan@-------- writes:
>
> << Later, at lunch in a small restaurant, I looked at my daughter and
> noticed she was wearing a necklace with a bead decorated with a stroke
> of lightening. Then I looked over her head. She was sitting under a
> print of an owl, the totem of Athena! >>
>
> Enroll your daughter! The gods have spoken!

First she has to get in!! Light those candles Bro!

Pythia

Subject:	Re: Help with Latin
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:05:31 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/13/98 5:37:20 PM Centr--------t--------rd Time, Dexippus@--------
writes:

> "We have people for that"

"Opifices pro Minervae". It's not a literal translation so much as it is one
in spirit with the meaning of the phrase. It actually means "we have workers
of all trades". Close enough?

Secunda Floria Zonara

Subject:	Re: Turnips - good Roman food was Hedonism
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:12:46 EST

In a message dated 12/13/98 6:53:15 PM Central Standard Time,
rmerullo@-------- writes:

> Hey! Who do you think you are to slander turnips and zucchini!
>
> My mashed turnip is appealing to almost everyone who has ever tried it, and
> zucchini can be the base of a lot of tasty dishes.
>
> Think before you malign innocent, healthful and defenseless vegetables!
> :


Uuummmm! Ok! I've thought about it! I still don't like turnips, rutabagas,
okra, and zucchini. On the other other hand, I DO like verjuice, dormice,
bunny stew, cabbage, kohlrabi, jicama, olives, figs, dates, and pretty much
everything else (lightly braised parsnips with clarified butter and a
sprinkling of celery salt - yum!) Pig's feet. Head Cheese. Leberwurst.
Shrimp. Octopus. Squid. I'll stop now. I have to go fix dinner.


Secunda Floria Zonara

Subject:	Re: Morality was Hedonism
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:04:27 EST

<< My own view is that a lot of the wild partying imagery, vomitoria and
endless feasting and orgies etc. I rather doubt that most Roman families
would seem morally loose by contemporary standards. >>

Salvete

The question of Roman morality in the republic is a good one.
The Orgy, has of course, become a Roman term for sexual license
and overeating, but Rome itself didn't start the Orgy. The
Greco/Macedonians did. The Orgy was part of the Dionysian ritual.
It was not native to central Italy, it came from the Greek south
of Italy where Dionysus was worshipped. First inscriptions
referring to the ritual in central Italy date back to the fifth
century BCE in Campania, evidence there indicates they came from Cumae.

They were imported into Rome from Campania in the second century
BCE under the guise of the Lydian name, Bacchus, and the Orgy was
renamed the Bacchanalia. Trouble erupted because of the ritual
which was considered a mystery, was not really investigated until
initiates told of numbers of maidens deflowered, youths murdered, and
suicides caused during them, so that by 186 BCE the Senate
attempt to repress them. The Senate issued a decree, in an
attempt to lessen the orgaistic effects of the ritual (for more
on this one should read Livy, book 39 8-18) but could not
complete the ban on them.

It would seem that the relief of winning the 2nd Punic war and
the sudden influx of wealth from their overseas conquests caused
the Romans, at least upper class ones, to loosen their usual
stiff morals. Thus means a humanistic party God like Bacchus
would be very popular.
As more Greek and Asia Minor culture was imported into Rome by
Sulla and his minions, sexual debauchery became the norm rather
then the exception. During Augustus' reign, the cult went a
revival that became a ritual, weekly, rather then yearly and
continued strongly until the end of the first century AD.

Dionysus' origins are also of interest. Macedonians, Epriots and
Thracians all kept his rituals year round, (Don't forget Phillip
I met Olympus at one, from that wild orgy likely came Alexander)
Apparently he originates in Thrace, where he was a fertility god(
his servants are 1/2 men and goats) Thracians raised goats for
meat, and they are also a symbol of fertility. (Rumors have it
the donkey show may have got its start in Thrace!)

Interestingly Caesar's Palace in LV calls him the god of wine,
and while, this might been true for other cultures, it IS not
true for Rome. (Amazing how much misinfo gets spread that way.)
While it is tempting to call him such, this Roman Dionysus was
more a god of the emotions, which often led Romans to invoke him
when they did something emotional: "Bacchus forced me, or made
me!"
Ovid makes mention that if Bacchus was with you were
irresistible.
In Asia Minor, he is a God of the trees, and this of course could
include wine. But he is not a fertility god, he is not a
vegetation god to the Romans. So much misinfo is spread because
he was this in other cultures like the Ionian.
If forced to pin him down today, I'd call him the god of parties,
Romans like Japanese, believed that a man should be drunk at
parties, and have Bacchus with you. After my party friday, and a
studio party Sat., believe me, Bacchus was with me all weekend!!

Valete

Q Fabius.


Subject:	Elections in Nova Roma
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:13:01 -0000

Salvete omnes!

Were the votes already counted?

Valete!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)

Subject:	Re: Turnips - good Roman food was Hedonism
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:05:41 -0500

Salvete Floria et alii

All this talk about food makes me wonder, is it appropriate to submit
recipes for publication on the website or Eagle only if they are very
authentic?

I have a couple of dishes that I like and are simple, and I am sure would be
worth trying for other cives, but they are not real Roman dishes, because
'new' foods like pasta and rice are used.

I would be happy to send recipes to Patricia Cassia if 100 % authenticity is
not required.



>From: Nodigio@--------
>
>In a message dated 12/13/98 6:53:15 PM Central Standard Time,
>rmerullo@-------- writes:
>
>
>Uuummmm! Ok! I've thought about it! I still don't like turnips,
rutabagas,
>okra, and zucchini.

Well, if you're really sure...but I shall continue to enjoy turnip on a
semi-regular basis.

On the other other hand, I DO like verjuice, dormice,

What are these two things?

>bunny stew, cabbage, kohlrabi, jicama, olives, figs, dates, and pretty much
>everything else (lightly braised parsnips with clarified butter and a
>sprinkling of celery salt - yum!) Pig's feet. Head Cheese. Leberwurst.
>Shrimp. Octopus. Squid. I'll stop now. I have to go fix dinner.

The word "hedonist" does not spring to mind to describe this diet :). Most
people seem willing to try turnip, but fewer will try octopus or squid,
which I like very much. Actually, I like everything that you have named
except pigs' feet (I had them pickled once, that was enough for me) and head
cheese (never tried it, but would be willing).

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
>
>
>Secunda Floria Zonara
>

Subject:	Re: Turnips - good Roman food was Hedonism
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:14:33 -0500

>Salvete Floria et alii
>
>All this talk about food makes me wonder, is it appropriate to submit
>recipes for publication on the website or Eagle only if they are very
>authentic?
>
>I have a couple of dishes that I like and are simple, and I am sure would
be
>worth trying for other cives, but they are not real Roman dishes, because
>'new' foods like pasta and rice are used.
>
>I would be happy to send recipes to Patricia Cassia if 100 % authenticity
is
>not required.
>
Salvete,
I for one would love to hear of any recipes. Thanks

Vale L Equitus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:06:54 EST

In a message dated 98-12-13 18:56:53 EST, you write:

<< Not only did you in every liklihood spoil the hell out of his vacation
(and his wife's) but he probably had a few sleepless nights wondering
who you might tell or what you might say in public about he (and his
wife).LOL!!! >>


Yeah...I guess so! : )

<<The lovely would be lady folded
his cards, walked over to my companion, grabbed him by the front of his
undress jumper and slammed him against the wall, and asked a couple of
obvious qustions about noses, blood and so forth. >>

Wow! See what happens when you push Dorothy too far!

--Dexippus : )

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:16:22 EST

In a message dated 98-12-14 00:35:04 EST, you write:

<< I am not repulsed by Dexippus (I myself
am gay), but by the lack of gravitas I see displayed about a matter our
spiritual ancestors considered of utmost importance. My stomach is
turned. >>


Has there been a lack of gravitas? Maybe I've just been reading between the
lines too much...

--Dexippus : )

Subject:	Re: Since ya done brought it up......
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:12:45 EST

In a message dated 98-12-13 23:37:51 EST, you write:

<< Aawwww - speak up!! I've certainly aired MY views!! And I want to know
yours, too. Particularly as I presume you have said appendage? I don't, so
my opinions are as relevant as a mermaid's to a centaur's!
>>

Hmmm...well...I was just going to suggest snip it and mail it off to me. I'll
find some use for it. : P~~~~

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Morality was Hedonism
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:28:36 -0500

Salvete Cassia et alii

>Thank you for this thought-provoking point! What might these authors have
>had in mind when promoting such an image? Were they Christians seeking to
>prove the corruption of the empire? Politicians seeking a return of the
>republic?
>
>Patricia Cassia
>


While I barely qualify as even an armchair historian, I do not recall any
Christian historians of Rome (I'm talking about more or less 'contemporary'
sources not modern-day historians). Not too long ago I read Mommsen's (sp
suspect) 'Provinces of the Roman Empire', in which he makes a couple of
frustrated negative remarks about Roman historians for focusing on palace
scandals rather than events and circumstances that had greater impact on
larger segments of the Empire's population. Suetonius comes to mind as the
worst offender for this; he was not Christian, was he?

I think that Suetonius and other historians were indulging their curiosity,
and that of their audience, in a spirit similar to that of tabloid writers
today.

So, even if all the dirt on the Julio/Claudian emperors were true (I doubt
it), how much does that tell us about the lives of other Romans? And yet
when people talk about the decadence of the Roman Empire, I believe that it
is those stories, like the ones from the Lives of the #(12?) Caesars, of
which people are thinking.

I have often heard complaints about how boring and irrelevant the study of
history is; ancient history in particular is described as a series of dates
of battles and maps of expanding and shrinking territories controlled by a
series of ethnic groups and states. It was amusing to read Mommsen's work,
which certainly fit the mould well (but lacked maps), and yet find within it
the author's frustrated hint at an explanation: the historical record is
largely made up of what people find interesting and decide accordingly to
commit to paper, floppy, stone tablet or whatever medium; history is thus
not so much the summary of all events and happenings as the sum of people's
most prominent interests. In the absence of a solid contemporary record on
economics, religion and other facets of life in various parts of the Empire,
how much choice did Mommsen have about topics for his book?

Sorry for the digression.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Help with Latin
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:14:04 EST

In a message dated 98-12-14 00:06:56 EST, you write:

<< "Opifices pro Minervae". It's not a literal translation so much as it is
one
in spirit with the meaning of the phrase. It actually means "we have workers
of all trades". Close enough? >>


Thanks Zonara...but I think Merullus' translation works better in the spirit
of the words for use by Diva Household.

"Homines ad hoc habemus" -- "We have PEOPLE for that!"

--Dexippus : )

Subject:	Re: Help with Latin
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:48:30 -0500

>
>Thanks Zonara...but I think Merullus' translation works better in the
spirit
>of the words for use by Diva Household.
>
>"Homines ad hoc habemus" -- "We have PEOPLE for that!"
>
>--Dexippus : )
>

This would be "We have people for this!"

The Latin for "that" is "ille, illa, Illud" or "iste, ista, istud"

Vale L Equitius

Subject:	Gentile etymology
From:	Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:51:32 -0500

Merullus wrote:

>Is it possible that "gentile" became used this way because early
Christians
>were adopting Biblical names in departure from the Roman gens-based naming
>conventions?

I quite like this idea. Another way of putting it would be that the
Christians have abandoned the sacra familiae and their families in favour
of the "christian fellowship".

However, a little further research on "gentile" in the Christians'
scriptures has produced the following information:

1) According to a Bible Concordance, "Gentiles" is first used in the KJV in
the New Testament - once in John, thereafter in Acts and the Epistles. So
whatever the original word is, it's Greek, not Hebrew. I still don't know
what the Greek is.

2) The Latin in the Vulgate is "gentes", not "gentiles", at least at the
first 7 references listed in the Concordance.

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Re: Madder dye
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:29:10 -0500 (EST)

Mark;
I don't suppose that you found out if Cocaneal was a dye known in Roman
Times?????

To all members of Armalist / NovaRoma:

Bye the way, I now have a fully functional 33 foot papyrus scroll with
rolling spindles. My original intention was to use it to record
engineering information and sketches. We (Mathew Amt, XXth Legio and I)
had early discussed this project and it is now ready for the information
/ data / pictures and text. My problem is that I do not speak or read
latin much less write it. I want to use the scroll as a example of a
display of Roman Period library literature and reference, and also as a
on-site reference work for a builder (architechturus).

I am uncertain on how to proceed with this project, and could use some
advice. Are then any available books written in latin discussing any
aspects of building with English translations. I believe that for
maximizing the interest of the public, both text and drawings should be
used, and a translation of the text should be provided.

The original idea was to put sketches and latin text into the scroll,
and have English Translation of the text next to it for easy reading.
Any ideas, comments or criticisms are solicited on this project.

Your Most Humble and Inquiring Servant;

Jim Mathews / Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: ATTN: Cassius-voter code???
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:12:24 EST

In a message dated 98-12-13 22:57:07 EST, you write:

> My apologies! Don't worry, there's still time to vote. I won't
> actually get to the official tally until after work tomorrow evening.

No problem at all....thanks!

:)

Subject:	Hic ille iste etc.
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:13:42 -0500

Salvete Luci Equiti et alii


>From: "Lucius" v--------l@--------
>
>>
>>"Homines ad hoc habemus" -- "We have PEOPLE for that!"
>>
>>--Dexippus : )
>>
>
>This would be "We have people for this!"
>
>The Latin for "that" is "ille, illa, Illud" or "iste, ista, istud"
>
>Vale L Equitius
>

That is true. However, which do you think was used most, or, which would be
used by default to refer to something? I bet "hic haec hoc" ahead of the
other two.

I do not have my grammar reference handy, but, as I recall, "ille illa
illud" would usually be used when there would be more than one pronoun in a
sentence -- that is, comparing this to that. "iste ista istud" was used
least in classical Latin, wasnt it?

I believe that "hic haec hoc" was the demonstrative pronoun of choice in
classical Latin; I could be wrong though.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Since ya done brought it up......
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:29:54 EST

In a message dated 98-12-14 13:39:41 EST, you write:

<< Dexippus@-------- wrote:


> Hmmm...well...I was just going to suggest snip it and mail it off to me.
I'll
> find some use for it. : P~~~~
>
> --Dexippus

Oh Dex....this is just TOO much information......


Pythia >>

I MUST agree Dex love!!! However, tis IS handy information to use with my
darling male childs FATHER!!!!!! You snail mail address again??? <G>

Crys (looking for a good Ginsu)

Subject:	The Doctors Visit (Part 1)
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:30:07 EST

Salvete --

Today was my 5th ultrasound. They seem to want to make certain Lapis dosen't
turn breech on em (although for me it is a mute point now).

He is wonderful. His size is fine and everything is where it ought to be. No
pictures this time (maybe I can get one tomorrow). They are also going to
determine his weight for me (he just FEELS so heavy to me). His heartrate was
great. They really like him as a subject. He's cooperative, even though his
sister antagonizes him to the best of her ability.

Terry likes seeing her brother on television. She pounds on my belly to make
him move and annoy the ultrasound tech (where ever she got THAT from, *I* will
never know) <G>.

Tomorrow we have our regular 2 week appointment. I'll keep you all informed.

My body is preparing for birth. My hips are spreading and the Braxton Hicks
contractions and the constaint tendon pulling is keeping me in a varying
amount of discomfort/pain pretty much all the time. But I must confess, I
love being pregnant but I am still ready to have this baby (was that an
oxymoron??)!!

And still no date for the section. It would make my life easier, as my aunt
wants to come up a week ahead of time so she and Terry can get reaquainted.
Maybe if I keep pushing, they will let me schedule it and then reschedule if
needs must (and I see no reason why they should).

Still hoping for my February 15th birthday!!!!

Crys (feeling tired and pained and annoyed at damn near everything)

Subject:	Re: Hic ille iste etc.
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:45:30 -0500

>>>"Homines ad hoc habemus" -- "We have PEOPLE for that!"
>>>
>>>--Dexippus : )
>>
>>This would be "We have people for this!"
>>The Latin for "that" is "ille, illa, Illud" or "iste, ista, istud"
>>Vale L Equitius
>>
>
>That is true. However, which do you think was used most, or, which would
be
>used by default to refer to something? I bet "hic haec hoc" ahead of the
>other two.
>
>I do not have my grammar reference handy, but, as I recall, "ille illa
>illud" would usually be used when there would be more than one pronoun in a
>sentence -- that is, comparing this to that. "iste ista istud" was used
>least in classical Latin, wasnt it?
>
>I believe that "hic haec hoc" was the demonstrative pronoun of choice in
>classical Latin; I could be wrong though.
>
>Valete, Gaius Marius Merullus


Hic is this and ille is that. Two different words and ideas.
Don't make it any more than it is, ok

Vale L Equitius

Subject:	Re: Suetonius was Morality
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:45:59 EST

Salvete!!
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus was never a Christian. He was an Equestrian, a
lawyer and son of Suetonius Laetus.

His political posts included: military tribune (which he had
transferred to a cousin), Trajan awarded him the duty "ius trium
liberorum" though he wasn't qualified, was "ab epistulis" to
Hadrian. He was dismissed from this service because of a breech
of court etiquette, and only with his last work "Public Offices"
was he restored to Imperial favor.

He is important because not only does he tell of the lives of the
rulers of Rome, but unlike Tacitus his contemporary, he tells his
stories in a clear straightforward manner. He also adds his
sources, though after his dismissal from the inner court these
had died up, and his work becomes harder to check for accuracy.

With Suetonius the writing of biographies has entered a new
period. Gone is the eulogistic treatment of great men. He does
not moralize like so many previous Greek and Roman writers.
Instead he coolly reports facts, collecting them into bundles of
information, and he does loves entertaining stories, though he'll
often temper the sensationalism by relating "so&so his enemy say
this to be true."

Suetonius' works influenced many future Roman writers. His work
style can also be seen in 9th, 14th 16th century biographies.
Pliny described him best. He was a quiet studious man, devoted
to writing.

I see him as professional scholar, one who wrote for the love of
writing, while still trying to be objective reporter. He would
have fit in well with today's writers.

Q. Fabius 

Subject:	Re: Hic ille iste etc.
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:03:42 -0500

>From: "Lucius" v--------l@--------
>

>>>The Latin for "that" is "ille, illa, Illud" or "iste, ista, istud"
>>>Vale L Equitius
>>>
>>
>
>Hic is this and ille is that. Two different words and ideas.
>Don't make it any more than it is, ok
>
>Vale L Equitius
>


Please explain then how "ille illa illud" and "iste ista istud" are both
"that"

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Suetonius
From:	Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:08:57 -0500

> -----Original Message-----
> From: SFP55@-------- [SMTP:SFP55@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 4:46 PM
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Suetonius was Morality
>
> From: SFP55@--------
>
> Salvete!!
> Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus was never a Christian. He was an Equestrian,
> a
> lawyer and son of Suetonius Laetus.
>
I find it amusing that his congomen was Tranquillus. His biographies
certainly stirred things up, and it's unfortunate that some of the most
controversial of them were lost. I'm always wistful when Suetonius says
things like "Titus was born in a back room on --- Street: the house is still
standing and open to the public today." If only that were as true now as it
was then.


> With Suetonius the writing of biographies has entered a new
> period. Gone is the eulogistic treatment of great men. He does
> not moralize like so many previous Greek and Roman writers.
> Instead he coolly reports facts, collecting them into bundles of
> information, and he does loves entertaining stories, though he'll
> often temper the sensationalism by relating "so&so his enemy say
> this to be true."
>
That's what I love about Suetonius. He tells a good story, but makes
no bones about saying that his source may have been unreliable. Unlike many
historians who insist that their sources never lied to them. Somewhat like
Kenneth Starr and Charles Godfrey Leland!
>
>
> I see him as professional scholar, one who wrote for the love of
> writing, while still trying to be objective reporter. He would
> have fit in well with today's writers.
>
Especially Dominick Dunne!

Subject:	Re: Morality
From:
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:42:35 EST

Salvete

About the common people's lives in Rome, the only real reporting
we have about the Roman people are in the upper class. The lower
class was rarely reported about, except in passing by historians.
Obviously the "Movers & Shakers" of Rome were more interesting
then the vulgar. I'm sure though, some of the current morality
of the uppers trickled down to lower class much the same as
England's in the middle & late 19 century.

Valete
Q. Fabius


Subject:	Re: Hic ille iste etc.
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:21:43 -0500

>
>>>>The Latin for "that" is "ille, illa, Illud" or "iste, ista, istud"
>>>>Vale L Equitius
>>>>
>>
>>Hic is this and ille is that. Two different words and ideas.
>>Don't make it any more than it is, ok
>>Vale L Equitius
>
>Please explain then how "ille illa illud" and "iste ista istud" are both
>"that"
>
>Gaius Marius Merullus
>
Iste, Ista, Istud, demonstrative pronoun and adjective , that of yours,
that;
sometimes with contemptuous force.
Ille, Illa, Illud, demonstrative adjective and pronoun, that, the former,
the famous;
at times weakened to he, she, it, they

L Equitius

Subject:	Fw: Ancient Roman engineering drawings and specs
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:44:08 -0500

-----Original Message-----
From: Maryscats@-------- Maryscats@--------
To: ARMALIST-L@-------- ARMALIST-L@--------
Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Ancient Roman engineering drawings and specs


>To Jim Mathews and all Armalisters:
>
>Helpful books for this project would be, as Mike Bishop suggested,
Vitruvius
>Pollio, On Architecture, the Loeb Classical Library Nos. 251, V. I-V (ISBN:
>0674992776) and 280, VI-X (ISBN: 0674993098). They can be purchased through
>Amazon.com and are $19.95 each. As you all know, the Loeb editions have the
>Latin (red covers) on the left side of the page and English on the right,
or
>the Greek on the left (green covers) and English on the right.
>
>Another volume is the Loeb edition (No. 174) of Frontinus, Stratagems and
>Aqueducts of Rome, ISBN 0674991923, also available through amazon.com at
>$19.95.
>
>The description of the bridge in Julius Caesar's de Bello Gallico, Book IV,
>Section 17 seq. is also a good example of Roman building. The Loeb edition
>(No. 72) is ISBN 0674990803 and like the other Loeb editions, can be
purchased
>from amazon.com at $19.95. OBTW, these prices are plus shipping and
handling
>which amounts to between $3 and $4.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Mary

May we add these to the Macellum? Please.

Subject:	Re: Suetonius was Morality
From:	"Gaius Triumphius" poeticfiend@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:28:25 PST

Salvete!

I am reading Lives of the 12 Caesars right now for the first time and am
almost finished. I could not agree more with this descriptiion of the
writing of Suetonius. I would highly recommend this book to anyone
interested in an easy to read look at the lives of the Caesars.

P.S Did he write anything else like this?


- Gaius Triumphius




>He is important because not only does he tell of the lives of the
>rulers of Rome, but unlike Tacitus his contemporary, he tells his
>stories in a clear straightforward manner. He also adds his
>sources, though after his dismissal from the inner court these
>had died up, and his work becomes harder to check for accuracy.
>
>With Suetonius the writing of biographies has entered a new
>period. Gone is the eulogistic treatment of great men. He does
>not moralize like so many previous Greek and Roman writers. >Instead he
coolly reports facts, collecting them into bundles of
>information, and he does loves entertaining stories, though he'll
>often temper the sensationalism by relating "so&so his enemy say
>this to be true."
>
>I see him as professional scholar, one who wrote for the love of
>writing, while still trying to be objective reporter. He would
>have fit in well with today's writers.
>
>Q. Fabius 
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.

Subject:	Re: Terminology
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:46:11 -0800 (PST)

> True that was just an example of what typically separates a Jew from a
> Non-Jew, especially during the ancient times. There are other
factors, such
> as not eating pork (and again...Muslims dont eat pork too) but there
are a
> host of restrictions that tend to separate Jews from non-Jews.

Well my Dad's circumcised and a Vegetarian, that doesn't make him a Jew!
So the factors are not the same nowadays as in olden times, I guess.
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
> Candidate for Praetor Urbanis

Noct'a



> "A. Iulia" wrote:
>
> > From: "A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
> >
> > > Well yes. it does..but its also a catchall word for anyone who
does
> > not follow
> > > the covenant of Abraham. In other words..not circumcised.
> >
> > But not all people who are circumcised are Jewish!
> >
> >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
> > > Candidate for Praetor Urbanis
> >
> > Noct'a
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your
subscription
> > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>

Subject:	Re: Morality
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:57:44 EST

In a message dated 98-12-14 17:08:15 EST, you write:

<<
About the common people's lives in Rome, the only real reporting
we have about the Roman people are in the upper class. The lower
class was rarely reported about, except in passing by historians.
Obviously the "Movers & Shakers" of Rome were more interesting
then the vulgar. I'm sure though, some of the current morality
of the uppers trickled down to lower class much the same as
England's in the middle & late 19 century.

Valete
Q. Fabius >>


Forgive my oversensitivity, but I sorta resent the choice of words.

My life, by both todays standards and those of damn near any past period is
considered 'immoral' or 'vulgar' or something of similar bad taste or the
opinion of some .... some .... person who has the nerve to judge me and my way
of life. I have lived on both sides of the fence (I have been pretty well-to-
do and I have wished I WAS poor so maybe I would have some money) and know
that the 'upper-crust' spends a lot of time preaching about that which they
know absolutely nothing about (except what they have heard, read or seen in
little bits and pieces passing in their chariot, wagon, or while channel
surfing) then doing anything to change it.

I have seen the 'morality' of the uppers and am not interested in having any
of it trickling on me!! Thanks anyway.

Walk a mile ... not even .. in my Roman sandles. You may find out I have more
morals than you originally judged me to have.


Crys (Once a "Mover & Shaker" -- now quite vulgar...personally I prefer the
latter)

Subject:	Re: Turnips - good Roman food was Hedonism
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:54:58 -0600

Salvete Omnes et Ave Merullus!

Do as I have done and shall continue to do. The "authentic," documentable
recipes I submit for my column in the "Eagle" are labeled as such, all others I
title as "Old Family Recipes" (most being good, solid European "peasant"
cooking, including my favorite 'boiled dinner' of ham, potatoes, carrots,
cabbage and turnips.)

Write away Amici, as the proponent of a Sodalis Coqueror et Coquuus, I welcome
the effort of all brewers and cooks.

Valete et Vale - Venator

RMerullo wrote:

> From: "RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
>
> Salvete Floria et alii
>
> All this talk about food makes me wonder, is it appropriate to submit
> recipes for publication on the website or Eagle only if they are very
> authentic?
>
> I have a couple of dishes that I like and are simple, and I am sure would be
> worth trying for other cives, but they are not real Roman dishes, because
> 'new' foods like pasta and rice are used.
>
> I would be happy to send recipes to Patricia Cassia if 100 % authenticity is
> not required.
>
> The word "hedonist" does not spring to mind to describe this diet :). Most
> people seem willing to try turnip, but fewer will try octopus or squid,
> which I like very much. Actually, I like everything that you have named
> except pigs' feet (I had them pickled once, that was enough for me) and head
> cheese (never tried it, but would be willing).
>
> Valete
>
> Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Fw: Ancient Roman engineering drawings and specs
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:26:53 -0500 (EST)

Lucius writes in relation to Latin works about building:

<< May we add these to the Macellium? Please>>

Absolutely!!! It will probably interest a lot of people in looking into
latin as a form of communication instead of a form of torture. Just
kidding (-; (-: (-:
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Loeb Classical Library in the Macellum
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:11:53 -0800

> Vitruvius
> >Pollio, On Architecture, the Loeb Classical Library Nos. 251, V. I-V (ISBN:
> >0674992776) and 280, VI-X (ISBN: 0674993098). They can be purchased through
> >Amazon.com and are $19.95 each. As you all know, the Loeb editions have the
> >Latin (red covers) on the left side of the page and English on the right,
> or
> >the Greek on the left (green covers) and English on the right.
> >
> >Another volume is the Loeb edition (No. 174) of Frontinus, Stratagems and
> >Aqueducts of Rome, ISBN 0674991923, also available through amazon.com at
> >$19.95.
> >
> >The description of the bridge in Julius Caesar's de Bello Gallico, Book IV,
> >Section 17 seq. is also a good example of Roman building. The Loeb edition
> >(No. 72) is ISBN 0674990803 and like the other Loeb editions, can be
> purchased
> >from amazon.com at $19.95. OBTW, these prices are plus shipping and
> handling
> >which amounts to between $3 and $4.
> >
> >Hope this helps.
> >
> >Mary
>
> May we add these to the Macellum? Please.

If it would be permitted by Amazon.com I could see all their Loeb books being
added to the Macellum. Our interests are so eclectic that whatever ones are
selected would have people not interested in them, and people would be
interested in volumes Not listed. If they could all be listed, and I doubt that
Amazon has all the Loebs, then Nova Roma would have that much more chance to
garner that 10% (or WHATEVER) that we get from each purchase. You know Amazon
is not losing on the deal, they're business people.

Ericius.

Subject:	Re: Since ya done brought it up......
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:20:07 EST

In a message dated 12/14/98 1:39:57 PM EST, kingan@-------- writes:

<< Oh Dex....this is just TOO much information...... >>


Yeah...which is why I tried to stay clear of the conversation but Zonara
dragged me into it.

But it goes so well with New Born Baby Boy Soup!

--Dexippus
<<stirring the pot>>

Subject:	Re: Help with Latin
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:21:12 EST

In a m--------g--------t--------2/14/98 1:48:38 PM EST, v--------l@-------- writ--------br>
<< This would be "We have people for this!"

The Latin for "that" is "ille, illa, Illud" or "iste, ista, istud"

Vale L Equitius >>

Lucius...can you complete the phrase for me then?

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Loeb Classical Library in the Macellum
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:12:42 -0500 (EST)

That's great idea Ericius!! Who is in charge of putting stuff on the
Macellum? I will be glad to wait before ordering these books in order
to get them on our list. I'm not up on our listing, but I want to take
advantage of that prospect. I also have a list of military and naval
books that I would like to have considered for this M-list.

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Turnips - good Roman food was Hedonism
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:40:50 EST

In a message dated 12/14/98 10:49:38 AM Central Standard Time,
rmerullo@-------- writes:

> I DO like verjuice, dormice,
>
> What are these two things?

Verjuice is unripe grape juice - usually, but not always, fermented. Many
modern people think substituting something like nuac nam duplicates it
adequately. Dormice are of the rodent persuasion, taste somewhat like young
bunny, are about the size of quail - 2 or 3 make an adequate serving per
person. Both are ancient Roman foods.

Secunda Floria Zonara