Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:16:29 +0000 (GMT)

> <<> without the desire and/or the want for restraint(s)
>
> Restraints? Dex (oh mighty bondage diva!), you field THIS one!>>
>
> Oh I have restraints! Wat'cha need girl? Arms? Legs? Collars? Dog
> leashes? Chest harness? Gential harnesses? I have you...wat'cha
need?

hehe! Ye agreed to share right!!

Ooooh!! Roll up! Roll Up!!


> The official word from Olympus is: "Eat, Drink, and Be Merry! And
take a
> daily enema!"

> --Dexippus : )

Noct'a
Official queen of all things tie-uppable,...etc

Subject:	Re: Interests...WAS: The Doctors Visit (Part 2)
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:03:03 +0000 (GMT)

Has been nice chatting with you in the Taverna, I'm sure you have lots
to lend to our list.

Hope you enjoy! :)

Noct'a

Subject:	Re: Morality
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:20:20 +0000 (GMT)

> <<
> About the common people's lives in Rome, the only real reporting
> we have about the Roman people are in the upper class. The lower
> class was rarely reported about, except in passing by historians.
> Obviously the "Movers & Shakers" of Rome were more interesting
> then the vulgar.

I would have thought that the 'vulgar' as you choose to call them
would have been far more interesting.
It is far better to know how the comman man lived than the airs and
graces of the rich few.


> Valete
> Q. Fabius >>

Nocturnia

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:41:27 -0500 (EST)

Salvete Lucius Marconius Romanus;

Although I agree that you have a point in the subject of specific sexual
messages on this list, I would point out to you that the founders of
this micro-nation were not governed by the culture or philosophy of the
Pilgrim Fathers of America.

As a British friend of mine indicated to me, when I mentioned that the
play we were watching in London last year, was a little specific in the
above area. His reply was,"we're the ones that stayed here when the
Pilgrims sailed, remember."

I remind you of that fact because this mico-nation is a refuge for those
who wish to practice religion in their ways, which is often criticised
outside this place. This is also a place where we must find a common
ground with ourselves, and make this effort work.

Yes, it is true that many of the messages on this net are very sexually
specific, but a visit to Pompeii or any of the old roman cities will
provide you with a detailed look into a healthy sexual view as a natural
and wonderful thing rather than a deeply shameful act to be performed
behind closed doors. It is further correct that in the last few weeks
in my personal recruiting efforts for Nova Roma, I have been told that,

"oh I left that group because thier talk list was so sex specific, and I
did not care for it"

I believe that message should be brought to the Nova Romans as something
to seriously consider doing "something" about, and now it has. Some of
you have indicated to me that you believe that I hate you because You do
not share my interests, and that is certainly not correct, but I have
talked with you privately to straighten out our differences, and I think
in the fullness of time most of our differences will be settled in just
that way.

And now I return to you sir, and tell you now that there is no place on
this net for anyone who blatently insults my friends in the despicabale
way that you have without a retort in anger. I have not been angry here
before but I am now!!!!!!! Where were you during this first election??
What offices have you and do you hold now? What efforts have you
involved yourself in for the GOOD of this micronation? For that matter,
just who are you, and by what right do you burst in here with your
insults and your accusations?

You do not care one dried fig, for this Nova Roma or you would have the
common sense to know that you will never succeed so much as one tiny
grain of sand with your insults, your accusations and your blustering
self-rightousness, which to honest Romans is more to feared than any of
the evils that lurk at the edge of darkness Begone thou apparition and
bother us no more until you may have learned the basis of a gentleman.
Samsain is over-and we have no need of so vile and intemperate a beast
within our midst.

Marcus Minucius Audens
Military Tribune

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Hedonism censorship
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:33:19 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 01:04:08 EST, you write:

<< If these messages are meant to be funny-- I failed to see the joke >>
Salve Lucius Marconius Romanus!

Actually they are met to be funny. You are new, we have just come off our
annual election and a lot of of what you are reading is remains of that.

Our campaigning was high spirited, as is everything we do on this list.
So I can understand as an outsider (with quite a noble name) you would be
nonpulsed by the strange posts. Be assured that these people have Nova Roma's
best interests at heart.

Next, if you are "assuming" a role as protector of our early republic like
your namesake, bravo, very well done. If you are serious, now that becomes a
problem. First we are all adults. As such, nothing that man does sexually
should really shock you. Second if you are invoking the gods, you should know
that they (at least the Greeks') are as debauched and perverted as they come.
Therefore I doubt that they'll abandon us. (Our Vestal is very devout. I'm
sure Vesta hasn't received this sort of attention in centuries!)
My third and final point is this group dislikes censorship of any kind. What
you are suggesting is censorship. Plain and simple. So please get to know us
all before you attack people. You'll find that this is a bright, informed,
and well educated group. Not the slobbering degenerates that you have painted
us.
Civis Romanus sum, Odi profanum vulgus.
Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus
Paterfamilias Gens Fabia

Subject:	Fwd: Beautiful Error Messages
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:41:45 EST

Heck, even *I* thought this was cute.....

Subject:	Deus Sol Invictus (statement)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:27:31 -0000

Salvete omnes!

Some days ago I proposed the recognition of Deus Sol Invictus as part of the official Religio Romana, offering myself to be a priest or at least help with some research work. At the time Patricia Cassia asked me a small statement and/or bibliography, which I am now providing.

In the ancient world, the worship of the Sun was more or less universal and took several forms. In Rome, the Sun appears to have made part of the original (indigenous) Roman pantheon, this deity being later known during Republic and Empire as Sol Indiges. This deity had a temple or shrine on the Quirinal Hill and another within or near the Circus Maxmus. Nevertheless, like its greek counterpart Helios, its role was more or less insignificant, being considered a minor deity.
The importance of the Solar cult in Rome started to grow with the introduction of religions from the Midle East, where it had a proeminent religious role, namely in Syria. Here, the tutelar gods called Baals, were originally worshiped as gods of fertility and life force, having no connection with the Sun. Nevertheless, during the helenistic period, the Baals started to have a sincretic character being identified with Greek deities. As a consequence, some of them were in fact identified with Helios and/or Apollo. One of such was the Baal of Emesa called Elagabalus (or Heliogabalus), which was adored in the form of a phalic black stone fallen from the heavens as a metheorite, considered as a gift from the Sun.
In 218 AD, the priest of Elagabalus at Emesa was proclaimed Emperor of Rome by the troops stationed near the city, and adopted the same name of his worshiped deity. During his short reign (218 - 222 AD), he was the first Emperor trying to introduce solar monotheism in Rome, by means of amalgamating all the religions around his worshiped Baal, and to do this the young Emperor not even hesitated to make sacrifice in his temple in all possible fashions, namely performing the tauroboliums in honour of Cybele (the Emperor also requested to be castrated like the Galii, but it seems that he was just circumcised). In exchange for these ceremonies, the Emperor requested the relics present in the temples of other deities to be transferred to the temple of Elagabalus, Who now concentrated all deities in one. This fact and the together with the extravagant festivities in honour of Elagabalus, as well as the Emperor's deliberate licenciousness greatly revolted the people of Rome and the Praetorian Guard, contributing to his murder in 222 AD.
After the death of Emperor Elagabalus, the idea of solar monotheism was put aside, and the black stone was sent back to Emesa. This state of thngs was kept until the reign of Emperor Aurelian (270 - 275 AD). It was said that the mother of Aurelian was a priestess of the Sun, and even his old family (Aurelii) was thought to be the Sun's progeny. The solar devotion of the Emperor increased during his campaign in Syria, where as was already said, the Sun received much devotion in a sincretic form with the tutelar Baals. Aurelian visited the Temple of Elagabalus at Emesa and attributed his victory over Queen Zenobia of Palmyra to his solar protector. After this victory he ordered the solar temple at Palmyra to be rebuilt, and another temple to be built in Rome itself, establishing the worship of the Sun as Deus Sol Invictus as the official state religion of Rome. In order to serve at the temple, he formed a new college of priests, called the Pontifices Solis, or Pontifices Dei Solis or Pontifices Dei Solis Invicti. The 25th December was consecrated to His worship as the day of His ressurection. It was called Dies Dei Solis Invicti (Christian Christmas was by then the 6th January - more about this later). Unfortunately, nothing is known on how the solar ritual was performed in the temple.
Solar monotheism had returned to Rome after fifty years, synthesising in only one deity the major deities of all pantheons. As such, although Sol Invictus was directly identified with the physical Sun Helios or Sol Indiges, He was the source of all life, and as such His concept also included all the Syrian Baals. This idea was in accordance with the Stoic view of fate being ruled by the cosmic entities. Also, recalling Neoplatonist theories, the physical Sun was not more than the physical image of the Divine Light, represented by Apollo, and as Kosmocrator and creator of all things he could also be identified with Zeus/Jupiter. Nevertheless, the deity that Sol Invictus most absorbed was that of Mithras. It seems that since Persian conquest of Assyria and Babylon, Mithra started to be identified with the Sun-God Shamash. Even if the Roman Mithras had little to do with the Persian Mithra, maybe his role as Kosmocrator (a role previously attributed to Helios, the king of all planets and stars) was enough to identify it with Helios, earning Him the epithet of Sol Invictus at least since the times of Commodus). As Kosmocrator, Mithras is the ruler of the entire Universe and stays above the visible Sun Helios. He performs the role of Divine Light (Mithras/Apollo) while Helios is his physical manifestation. Hence they being depicted together in Mithraic symbolism, while Mithras is almost always the dominant character. The new official religion was well received by mithraists who identified him with their God. Nevertheless, the Mysteries of Mithras did not stop and existed simultaneously with the official public religion of Deus Sol Invictus.
The official cult of Deus Sol Invictus persisted after Aurelian. In 307 AD in Carnuntum, Diocletian, Galerius and Licinus consecrated a sanctuary to "Mithras Sol Invictus, the favourer of their Empire", and even Constantine asked for His protection during the first quarter of his reign... Until the last battle of Roman Paganism was fought at Chrysopolis (18th September 324) by the troops of Deus Sol Invictus under Licinus.
Some years later Later, Emperor Julian (361-363 AD) revived the cult for the last time...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In order to revive the ancient cult of Heliogabalus or Deus Sol Invictus or Mithras Sol Invictus, we must bear in mind the following:
- Little is known about the official worship procedures and liturgy, but little is better than nothing.
- The cult was highly sincretic, joining aspects of Syrian, Greek, Persian and Roman religion. In Deus Sol Invictus we can identify the attributes of Mithras, Apollo, Jupiter/Zeus, Helios, Sol Indigites, the Syrian Baals, and even aspects of Mesopotamic religion.
- Solar monotheism was in perfect harmony with Hellenistic and Roman philosophy concepts.
- Politheism was not only tolerated... It was accepted as carrying divine truth, the several aspects of the One God Sol Invictus.
This has the consequence that whoever attempts to revive the cult must perform extensive research on all these aspects in order to recreate all this sincretism almost from scratch. He/She must also feel like it... As this revival must rely in inner intuition and feelings as much as in extensive research. I've already started this work, and offer myself to be a Pontifex Dei Solis Invicti. Nevertheless, I think that originally the role of Pontifex Dei Solis Invicti was assigned from among the members of the Collegium Pontificum. As such, there are two alternatives for the cult in Nova Roma:
1- We overlook the decision of the Emperors (we are a Republic) and make the Pontifices Dei Solis Invicti as a new college at the same level of the Flamines, i.e. under the authority of the Collegium Pontificum.
2- We follow tradition and assign that role from among the Pontifices of the Collegium. In this way, although not a Pontifex, I offer myself to help the assigned Pontifices in their research.
I'd like to know the opinion of the Collegium Pontificum about this all.

The bibliography is vast, and I'm still collecting it. Here are some valuable books:
-Sir James G. Frazer, "The Worship of Nature"
- Frnz Cumont, "La Theologie Solaire du Paganisme Romain"
- Franz Cumont, "The Mysteries of Mithras"
- David Ulansey, "The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries"
- Joscelin Godwin, "Mystery Religions"
- Jaime Alvar et al, "Cristianismo Primitivo y Religiones Mistericas"

For Syrian religion you can start with the wonderful WWW page at
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2938/templetoc.html" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2938/templetoc.html</a>
Here you can find an exaustive listing of valuable bibliography.

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:56:28 -0500

> Since the Gods are not setting any noticeable moral standards for the
>citizens, unless they are acting indiscreetly, and what appears to be a
>lack of interest amongst the general citizenry-- I have decided, with the
The Gods set any nocticeable moral standards? Ha! <laugh><laugh
again><laugh even harder> Please read up on your mythology! We can't even
think to compare to the general debauchery in which the Gods participate!
And tomorrow Saturnalia begins... Today you mention morals only because it
is the day of Sapientia, the eve of Saturnalia, but tomorrow... well,
tomorrow wisdom will more than likely cease to be easily found. Read up on
Saturnalia, amice, and read some good Roman history, for Romans, though
they may have thought themselves to be moral, were not in a place to
complain of moral standards.

And I certainly hope you are not a Christian/non-pagan speaking
sarcastically and insulting our gods. If so, you are in the wrong place for
that.

Orbianna
(in an attempt to regain some respect for her Gods)

Diana T. Hanley Bergman
proserpina@--------
orbianna@--------
----------------------------
Don't you know of tormented souls? They need dreams and action and the
purest of passion. And so we throw ourselves into fancies and madness. -
Flaubert

Linguam compescere virtus non est minima. -Anonymous

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:14:56 EST

Marcus Minucius Audens inscribed (perhaps without pausing to think):
[snip]
>And now I return to you sir, and tell you now that there is no place on
>this net for anyone who blatently insults my friends in the despicabale
>way that you have without a retort in anger. I have not been angry here
>before but I am now!!!!!!! Where were you during this first election??
>What offices have you and do you hold now? What efforts have you
>involved yourself in for the GOOD of this micronation? For that matter,
>just who are you, and by what right do you burst in here with your
>insults and your accusations?
[and snip again]

Salve, Marcus Minucius

I am not aware of anyone who has -- or even could have -- invested you
with any sort of authority to say who has a place on the net and who
doesn't. If you are angry (and certainly there's enough silly drivel and
nasty pettiness here to make anyone angry from time to time) then you
certainly have a right to express your anger, as does Lucius Marconius.
But everyone here has a place on the net -- no-one requires your approval
or mine to use this medium, and suggestions otherwise arouse MY anger.
Let's try to keep a semblance of reality in our postings, shall we? -- if
only to set an example for some others here!

And, BTW, what offices have YOU held here (besides an honorary tribunate
devoid of any responsibilities)? There's a well-known Christian
admonishment about who throws the first stone, that probably has
application here.

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus

(Scuta portate!)



id quod circumiret, circumveniat.

(What goes around, comes around.)

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:25:01 -0500

>And now I return to you sir, and tell you now that there is no place on
>this net for anyone who blatently insults my friends in the despicabale way
>that you have without a retort in anger. I have not been angry here before
>but I am now!!!!!!! Where were you during this first election?? What
>offices have you and do you hold now? What efforts have you involved
>yourself in for the GOOD of this micronation? For that matter, just who are
>you, and by what right do you burst in here with your insults and your
>accusations? You do not care one dried fig, for this Nova Roma or you
>would have the common sense to know that you will never succeed so much as
>one tiny grain of sand with your insults, your accusations and your
>blustering self-rightousness, which to honest Romans is more to feared than
>any of the evils that lurk at the edge of darkness Begone thou apparition
>and bother us no more until you may have learned the basis of a gentleman.
>Samsain is over-and we have no need of so vile and intemperate a beast
>within our midst. Marcus Minucius Audens Military Tribune Fair Winds and

Well said, brother! And for another of my two cents... Again, this is a
*pagan* organization, and we celebrate beauty in sexual endeavors. Our
bodies and the wonderful things they can do with other bodies is an
incredibly beautiful artform. Just ask Venus.
If our sexual explicitness is bothersome, then delete the messages. There
are other sorts of messages that are highly valuable and well worth the
continued effort to remain on the list.

Orbianna

Diana T. Hanley Bergman
proserpina@--------
orbianna@--------
----------------------------
Don't you know of tormented souls? They need dreams and action and the
purest of passion. And so we throw ourselves into fancies and madness. -
Flaubert

Linguam compescere virtus non est minima. -Anonymous

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:29:46 -0500

At 08:14 16/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>From: LSergAust@--------
>
>Marcus Minucius Audens inscribed (perhaps without pausing to think):
>[snip]
>>And now I return to you sir, and tell you now that there is no place on
>>this net for anyone who blatently insults my friends in the despicabale
>>way that you have without a retort in anger. I have not been angry here
>>before but I am now!!!!!!! Where were you during this first election??
>>What offices have you and do you hold now? What efforts have you
>>involved yourself in for the GOOD of this micronation? For that matter,
>>just who are you, and by what right do you burst in here with your
>>insults and your accusations?
>[and snip again]
>
>Salve, Marcus Minucius
>
>I am not aware of anyone who has -- or even could have -- invested you
>with any sort of authority to say who has a place on the net and who
>doesn't. If you are angry (and certainly there's enough silly drivel and
>nasty pettiness here to make anyone angry from time to time) then you
>certainly have a right to express your anger, as does Lucius Marconius.
>But everyone here has a place on the net -- no-one requires your approval
>or mine to use this medium, and suggestions otherwise arouse MY anger.
>Let's try to keep a semblance of reality in our postings, shall we? -- if
>only to set an example for some others here!
>
>And, BTW, what offices have YOU held here (besides an honorary tribunate
>devoid of any responsibilities)? There's a well-known Christian
>admonishment about who throws the first stone, that probably has
>application here.
>
>Vale,
>
>Lucius Sergius Australicus

For the sake of the gods would you all please stop this! This man was only
trying to stand up for the dignity of *us*, Nova Roma. Please take into
account his intentions before burning him. This is supposed to be a place
of friendship and happiness. Can we please leave all of our pettiness and
hurtful words OUT of this list?

Today is Wednesday, of Mercury. Let's let our intellect take our words into
account before they are spoken.

Thank you, dear wing-footed Mercury.

Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Christianos ad leonem!" -Tertullian

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:23:37 -0500

> -----Original Message-----
> From: michael marconi [SMTP:mdm8@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 1:07 AM
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Hedonism
>
> Salvete!
>
>     If these messages are meant to be funny-- I failed to see the joke.
> But if these messages are sincere than I honestly feel that Nova Roma
> should have a separate mailing list & chat room for the sexual deviants
> and other potential trouble makers. At least than 'we' could keep tabs as
> to were they were, and at the same time keep the NORMAL mailing list open
> for meaningful and descent dialogue.
>
>
Yer a nut, pal. Get professional help.

-- FC 

Subject:	Focus on royalty was Morality
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:48:12 -0500

Salvete Iulia et alii

Yes, I too would be interested in knowing more about the lives of
not-so-famous, or vulgar, Romans (vulgar here meaning common, not anything
insulting).

But it seems that Roman historians exhibit some of the same tendencies as
modern writers, like a fascination with royalty. It was more interesting to
write about, and read about, such-and-such emperor's incestuous relations
than about the daily struggles of some common citizens.

But with archaelogical digging and analysis continuing, there must be some
newer work that broadens its scope to include the lives of common people.
Has anyone any comments on the books in the Macellum in this regard? Are
they based on the same historical texts as Gibbons and Mommsen, or is there
more emphasis on reconstruction from analysis of archaeological sites?


Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
>> About the common people's lives in Rome, the only real reporting
>> we have about the Roman people are in the upper class. The lower
>> class was rarely reported about, except in passing by historians.
>> Obviously the "Movers & Shakers" of Rome were more interesting
>> then the vulgar.
>
>I would have thought that the 'vulgar' as you choose to call them
>would have been far more interesting.
>It is far better to know how the comman man lived than the airs and
>graces of the rich few.
>
>
>> Valete
>> Q. Fabius >>
>
>Nocturnia
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>

Subject:	Re: Morality
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:23:59 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 01:03:00 EST, you write:

<< I would have thought that the 'vulgar' as you choose to call them
would have been far more interesting.
It is far better to know how the comman man lived than the airs and
graces of the rich few. >>


I have found a little information, but I would love to put information on the
regular Roman on the page. Can anyone help?

Crys

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:27:21 EST

In a message dated 98-12-15 21:25:38 EST, you write:

<< hehe! Ye agreed to share right!!

Ooooh!! Roll up! Roll Up!!
>>


Yep! I always share my toys!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Enlightenment Please (was: Hedonism)
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:23:57 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 01:04:09 EST, you write:

<< If these messages are meant to be funny-- I failed to see the joke. But
if these messages are sincere than I honestly feel that Nova Roma should
have a separate mailing list & chat room for the sexual deviants and other
potential trouble makers. At least than 'we' could keep tabs as to were they
were, and at the same time keep the NORMAL mailing list open for meaningful
and descent dialogue.
Since the Gods are not setting any noticeable moral standards for the
citizens, unless they are acting indiscreetly, and what appears to be a lack
of interest amongst the general citizenry-- I have decided, with the help of
the divine logos, to add by distaste in these vial acts, and by doing so I
hope, with the help of others, to rid Nova Roma of the filth, perverted,
amoral, anti-community and loathsome creatures that might, and in all
probability will, harm the great intentions that the good citizens hope to
achieve.

Valete!
Lucius Marconius Romanus
Fortuna fortibus favet.
>>


Ummmm, I don't know exactly what your idea of 'moral' is, and I don't know
which gods you might be talking about. So I will ask for some enlightenment,
if you would be so kind.

As far as those on this list being immoral, I have to ask if you know
something I perhaps don't. What I know of the people I think you are upset
with:

Claudiia is our Vestal. I'm not 100% certain that she isn't the most
outspoken, sarcastic, hilarious and warped Vestial to ever tend the fire, but
I personally like her. She is NOT a Catholic Nun, gods be praised for it!!!
Heck, she's even knittin a blanket for my Lapis.

Dex....oh my, wherever to begin??? Start by rereading the above about Claudia
and replacing her with him and Vestal with Auger. He's not knitting anything
as far as I know, but he's personally helped me in decisions regarding my son
(not the baby boy soup either, BTW), and I am grateful to have him in my life.

Iunia?? She tends the Taverna and has a lovely sense of humor. She's really
a wonderful person.

Maybe *I* am one of these deviants you speak of, although you haven't exactly
insulted me personally. I hold no degrees, but reciently I have done research
that I may put up my page for Nova Roma. And ya know what I found? The
Romans, by todays standards, were a pretty wild bunch. By todays standards,
they were disrespectful to women (women often had little or nothing to say
about who they married), child molesters (many women married quite young and
members of both sexes had sex with 'underaged' people), and overall perverts.
But they gave the world much. Maybe we should give it all back?

No one has tried to marry me off to some old phart in a more profitable gens
(heck, mine is one of the originals, I think. That would leave me to marry
Cassius or Germanicus or someone and they are both taken and, no offence guys,
I'm just not interested). Pallidus has not tried to sell my children to
finance the down pament on a house or car (children were passable as legal
tender, to be traded or sold at the Paterfamilas discression, did you know
that?).

So, maybe I would not be so upset with your posts if you simply explained your
defininition of 'moral' for me. The gods weren't 'moral' (Jupiter played
around and everytime Juno caught him he turned his lover into some animal or
other), at least MY Patron dieties weren't (Juno, Jupiter and
Minerva...well...maybe Minerva was). I am no expert on the gods, so I may be
missng specifically which one(s) you are thinking of.

Someone suggested to me you were perhaps playacting, since the list is sorta
dead now that the elections are past. That actually makes the most sense to
me. I sure hope that's it, because if it isn't, you don't know much about the
gods of Rome.

Someone mentioned the Saturnalia.....which was/is a week long party!!!!!!!!!!
I refuse to get angry with you as it would ruin my daughters good cheer (I am
killing myself to make this a good holiday and she will not know of my own
sadnesses and worries). I will not be getting drunk, nor will I be
participating in even 'moral' or 'normal' sexual acts (sigh....). I will be,
most likely, washing the walls of the marks she puts there with her first set
of markers and crayons (just call me CinderSaturn) cooking nummy foods for her
to eat and watching her have the time of her life.

I must also ask if you are...what are we calling it....a worshipper of the
Roman Gods? Because it dosen't seem like it. You, much to my chagrin (did I
spell that right?) seem to be a self appointed Parish Priest. The Romans
weren't and should not be even today, Purists. They loved the
body....anybodys body sometimes. I don't want Terry to grow up a loose
immoral little trollup, but I don't want her to be ashamed of her body or be
afraid of it (like her mother was raised to be before she developed some
sense). Does this, too, make me immoral? Does it make me a bad mother? I
don't think so.

This carefully written post has taken me over an hour to write. So if you
could take a minute or two to define 'morality' for me, I would appreciate it.

Well, standinng on this soapbox has my back hurting.

Crys (who tried to keep her big fat keyboard shut, and has at least tried to
keep hormones out of it since she couldn't)

Subject:	Re: Holiday Greetings
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:26:33 EST

In a message dated 98-12-15 17:07:31 EST, you write:

<< Awww, that's sweet!!! Thanks!!! I got all misty eyed again. Almost makes
up
for the baby boy soup -- almost. >>

LOL...not you baby boy! He's now my son by marriage, right?

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:39:10 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 01:04:08 EST, you write:

<< If these messages are meant to be funny-- I failed to see the joke. But
if these messages are sincere than I honestly feel that Nova Roma should
have a separate mailing list & chat room for the sexual deviants and other
potential trouble makers. At least than 'we' could keep tabs as to were they
were, and at the same time keep the NORMAL mailing list open for meaningful
and descent dialogue.
Since the Gods are not setting any noticeable moral standards for the
citizens, unless they are acting indiscreetly, and what appears to be a lack
of interest amongst the general citizenry-- I have decided, with the help of
the divine logos, to add by distaste in these vial acts, and by doing so I
hope, with the help of others, to rid Nova Roma of the filth, perverted,
amoral, anti-community and loathsome creatures that might, and in all
probability will, harm the great intentions that the good citizens hope to
achieve. >>


Ok...did anyone else take offense to this?

I'm sorry that you are just so pure as the driven snow that a mere mention of
sexual exploitation bends you into a catortion of grievances and dispair! I'm
sorry that you seem to feel that the open and honest persona of some people
here intermingled with a little humor is "filth, perversion, amoral, and anti-
community". So much as I don't recall seeing you on this board all too much.

I, for one, am not going to walk on egg shells around this list just because
someone may be a bit taken back by something I may mention. If this offends
you then delete my posts as you see them come in and you won't have to deal
with them. But no one here is going to segment this list into different
trails because you or anyone else has a problem with a little sexual humor.
And being that the topic was "Hedonism", it fit the bill.

C'mon folks...we're all adults! Let's stop the freakin' insanity already!

--Dexippus
"Fed up with this Shit!"

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:43:04 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 02:41:35 EST, you write:

<< I have not been angry here
before but I am now!!!!!!! Where were you during this first election??
What offices have you and do you hold now? What efforts have you
involved yourself in for the GOOD of this micronation? For that matter,
just who are you, and by what right do you burst in here with your
insults and your accusations? >> etc.

You Go Audens!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:40:27 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 02:22:36 EST, you write:

<< I understand your concern regarding the recent posts on the
list....However, one, we are all adults. 2) nothing really explict has
really been discussed. 3) you have the ulitmate control by just
deleteing the mail if you find it personally offensive. >> etc.

Finally a voice of reason! Thanks Sulla!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Roman rudeness
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:00:46 -0600 (CST)

MariusFimbria sez:

Salvete omnes...

I have had many thoughts on the subject of Roman moral standards and
modern perceptions thereof, which I will be happy to share at length if
the thread has not completely passed me by ere I get a chance to really
sit down and *write* anything. In the meantime, I wanted to offer up
some 'points to ponder', if you will, just so anyone who might be
either dreading or anticipating the long version (or just plain
wondering where Marius Fimbria stands on all this) might know where I'm
coming from...

Something the scholars and classicists tend to forget: We of Rome were
and are a passionate people. A Roman didn't do anything halfway, from
conquest to building things to scrawling graffiti to slapping his hairy
thighs and laughing at bawdy jokes. We lived life back then at a depth
and intensity that would be considered impolite by modern standards.
In short, we are not to be confused with the marble statues we left
behind.

The Celts, for example, are known for the beauty, fire and passion of
their character; the Romans are often characterized as almost
mechanical in their coldness and precision. Yet the Gauls, within a
generation or two of Caesar's conquests, had settled quite splendidly
into being Gallo-Romans--*without*, I think, undergoing any wrenching
changes of character. Simply put, the distance between 'being' Celtic
and 'being' Roman cannot have been too far to walk!

On sexual morality in particular, it just wasn't a major big deal back
then. Sex was considered to be just another appetite of the body, to
which no Roman felt enslaved; if you were hungry, you ate something; if
your body was experiencing the urge for sex, you had sex with someone.
You were not thought any less of for taking a lover than you would
have been for hiring a cook to cater a banquet. It is strange that in
this modern era, our very denial of sex has given it such power over
us. A Roman took care of the need in a timely manner, and so was not
bothered by it the rest of the time. He certainly did not obsess over
it the way Americans do.

On censorship, I think Marconius' outburst may be an example of the
kind of thing the founders were wishing to avoid when they were
debating whether to admit people of non-[Roman-polytheistic] (see? I
fixed it so it doesn't say 'pagan' anymore! >({|;-) ) faiths. I
wasn't there for the debate, so can only guess, but I have sensed a
general fear that, if we open the door too wide, the Christian Fundies
are going to get in and start kicking everybody else around the corner.
(Personally, I don't see that kind of Christian being comfortable
joining Nova Roma in the first place.) Marconius certainly has a right
to his opinion, but it cannot be assumed that his is the 'Christian'
view (I don't know *what* religion he is, actually, or what role his
faith [if any] has played in shaping his morality); or, if he *is* a
Christian, that all Christians necessarily agree with him.

Finally, I get tired of being lectured by outsiders (as in complete
non-Romans, not people like Marconius) on Roman morality. I used to
get it all the time from my church friends, which is one reason I no
longer go to church. I have taken to reminding such busybodies that it
was not the Romans who came up with drug wars, industrial waste and
drive-by shootings...

--Well, I'll be blessed! You guys got the long version after all!!
>({|:-) >({|:-) >({|:-) >({|:-) >({|:-) >({|:-) >({|:-) >({|:-)

--L Marius Fimbria (Rotten Rowdy Roman)

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:55:08 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 08:15:11 EST, you write:

<< And, BTW, what offices have YOU held here (besides an honorary tribunate
devoid of any responsibilities)? There's a well-known Christian
admonishment about who throws the first stone, that probably has
application here. >>

Audens has been a tremendous value-added to this organization and I object to
any attempt to question him otherwise!

Perhaps that well-known Christian admonishment does apply here, but please
practice what thou preacheth!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:56:42 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 09:22:49 EST, you write:

<< Yer a nut, pal. Get professional help. >>


Our chief Vestal has spoken! So Be It! : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Enlightenment Please (was: Hedonism)
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:59:53 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 10:37:21 EST, you write:

<< Dex....oh my, wherever to begin??? Start by rereading the above about
Claudia
and replacing her with him and Vestal with Auger. He's not knitting anything
as far as I know, but he's personally helped me in decisions regarding my son
(not the baby boy soup either, BTW), and I am grateful to have him in my
life. >>


No...not knitting...but still planning on that Gold Lame Toga! When is the
next Roman Days?

--Dexippus

Subject:	keepin' it clean
From:	Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:16:18 -0500

Personally (I'm not presuming to speak for anyone else!) I'm tired of these
self-appointed moralists who consider it their duty to keep the e-list,
neat, tidy, impeccably scholastic, politically correct, flufflybunny happy
and unendurably boring.

Not that I don't enjoy the contributions of scholars and amateur scholars
and historians -- they're GREAT! I've picked up more interesting takes on
Roman customs here than in a month of Tacitus. And more diet-destroying
recipes than are good for me.

BUT I've also gotten to know more of our Cives' personalities through the
lively (and sometimes heated) exchanges, arguments, jokes, smart-ass
remarks, and peeks into personal lives. For me, this took Nova Roma out of
the realm of dry facts and into the very human aspects of the group.

If we decide to regress into simply another cerebral and dry study group --
I think I'll put my energy into the SCA or something.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Deus Sol Invictus (statement)
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:52:05 EST

Graecus,

This is most interesting. Thanks for the education.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Holiday Greetings
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:12:40 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 10:47:28 EST, you write:

<< LOL...not you baby boy! He's now my son by marriage, right? >>

Yup!!!! I'll be expcting child support beginning the first 15th of the month
after his birth (unless you'd like to start early)!! LOL Oh yea...that's not
your problem....DAMN

How'd the carroling go...that was the 10th right?

Crys

Subject:	Re: Enlightenment Please (was: Hedonism)
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:35:56 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 11:11:37 EST, you write:

<<
No...not knitting...but still planning on that Gold Lame Toga! When is the
next Roman Days?

--Dexippus >>

YEA!!!! When IS it exactly? I'm goin if I have to load both babies in the
wagon and drag that sucker to....to.....to....

OK....WHERE is it exactly?? <G>

Crys (praying to all the gods I manage to get a drivers license and a working
station wagon so she dosen't have to walk to...to...to....to the Roman Days!!)

Subject:	Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:	pallasathene@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:10 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, omnes!

I know it's probably a little late and I apologize for this, but lately I've been so busy that up is down and down is up!

Anyway, I am interested in the practices and the traditions that Roma Antiqua observed to celebrate Saturnalia. I am only aware of the practice of gift-giving. What did they use to decorate, etc?

Thanks for the input!

Studiose,

Minervina Iucundia Flavia
Praetor SE USA Provincia

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Subject:	Re: keepin' it clean
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:50:03 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 11:15:23 EST, you write:

<< If we decide to regress into simply another cerebral and dry study group --
I think I'll put my energy into the SCA or something.

-- Flavia Claudia >>

I, personally (not speaking for anyone else either) would unsub from this list
so fast it would make your head spin!!! However, as I stated earlier, to get
me outta Nova Roma, your gonna have to MOVE me, and I'm gaining weight by the
second, so you'd better get some help!!! <G> Audens mentioned people unsubin
from the list because of the content, which is incomprehensible (GODS you
people got me using big words now) to me. Accept or delete and move on. Life
is really quite simple when ya boil it down.

Crys (on her way to the store now, honest. Saturnalia is tomorrow and I'm
gonna EAT DRINK AND BE MERRY!!!, Then I'll go back to being the moodswinging,
note takin, waddling and wonderful human being you all love -- well, most of
ya anyway!)

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:	Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:01:54 -0500

> -----Original Message-----
> From: p--------s--------ne@-------- [SMTP:p--------s--------ne@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 11:48 AM
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: [novaroma] Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
>
> From: p--------s--------ne@--------
>
> Salvete, omnes!
>
> I know it's probably a little late and I apologize for this, but lately
> I've been so busy that up is down and down is up!
>
> Anyway, I am interested in the practices and the traditions that Roma
> Antiqua observed to celebrate Saturnalia. I am only aware of the practice
> of gift-giving. What did they use to decorate, etc?
>
See this month's EAGLE with our Celebrity Princeps Saturnaliacius!
Except we don't have an article on decorating -- who do I look
like? Marthia Stewartia? I think I remember something about cutting a tree,
dragging that sucker to one of the temples, and hanging stuff on it (not
captured barbarians -- other stuff.)

Always putting in a plug for the newsletter,
-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:	jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:46:54 -0500 (EST)

As I understand it, most of the Saturnalia decorations are very much up
to you (and your pocketbook) and a logical outlook on the season. The
Yule Log, the tree, ornanments and decorations that today's Christians
use were brought from elsewhere and are acceptable (except maybe for the
angel at the top of the tree. Candles and candle decorations with
bright colors, ribbons or strips of brightly colored cloth hung in
decorative shapes. Decorative hangings and festive table decrations
were well thought of. Don't forget the family shrine or gods, offerings
of cakes and wine should be made and the decorations here should also
reflect your house decorations.

Candles in the windows are supposed to be a New England Idea, but I
suspect that a candle(s) in the portico were used as luminaria are used
many places today. Home made dishs of flower petals and buds with
lingering aroma, put a pan of applejuice / cider on the stove to heat
gently and use apple pie spice in the juice to give the house a
wonderful odor.(Falernian wine heavily spiced is veryyyyyy good too)
I'm sure a half dozen of Venator's "Fire Cherries" will make you think
more clearly "than ever before (but reserve time for a nap later)."

The house should be warm, with warm blankets or comforters at convienant
places, and should smell good and should reflect your own festive ideas.
When things all come together. You will "feel" that it is right. I
like "one color themes" where blue. or red or silver predominate in a
window scene or the decoration of a door. One prominant door in my
house is the "Greeting Door" where all the greetiings of Saturnalia are
placed. Little incence cones burning at the shrine or in small
decorative dishes around the house help with good smells. Evergreen and
bright berries like holly and mistletoe, as well as any plants or trees
in your area that smells or looks good. Our laurel here in CT stays
green all year and can be made into a nice decoration. Colored paper
cut into nice designs can be used.

Don't forget the cookies and sweetbreads either and try to make time to
bake something every day. Most important is the enjoyment. You must
schedule a time for just sitting and enjoying your decorated place be it
a castle or a cave or anything in between, You should be the one to
enjoy your creation the most.

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia traditions, new and old
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:26:54 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 13:19:12 EST, you write:

<< As I understand it, Saturnalia was a time for role reversals, and Nova
Romans might enjoy trying some as part of their celebrations. For
instance, the partner who usually does the cooking or cleaning or
shopping or wrapping might get a break or switch jobs.
>>
Tommorow and friday, Bandwagon Productions will be run by the assistants.
Hopefully, we will lose no major deals because of this. However my assistants
love this holiday now. Monday I have a big meeting at Universal, so it's only
for two days, this year.

Q Fabius
(Whose Partners think He is crazy.)

Subject:	Ago gratias pro scientia Deus Sol Invictus (statement)
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:26:38 -0500

Salvete Antoni Grylle et alii

I thank you for this very informative post. Even if, in true Nova Roman
fashion, other scholarly citizens step forward to punch holes in some of the
historical content :).

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
-----Original Message-----
From: Antonio Grilo amg@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Cc: C--------us622@-------- C--------us622@--------
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:21 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Deus Sol Invictus (statement)


Salvete omnes!

Some days ago I proposed the recognition of Deus Sol Invictus as part of
the official Religio Romana, offering myself to be a priest or at least help
with some research work. At the time Patricia Cassia asked me a small
statement and/or bibliography, which I am now providing.

Subject:	Morality reading was Hedonism
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:53:22 -0500

Salvete Diana et alii

-----Original Message-----
From: Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:48 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Hedonism


>From: Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
>
Read up on
>Saturnalia, amice, and read some good Roman history, for Romans, though
>they may have thought themselves to be moral, were not in a place to
>complain of moral standards.
>
Could you perhaps post a book title or two where I and others could read
about lives of common Romans, including their morality? Can you recommend
anything in the Macellum in this regard?

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Deus Sol Invictus
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:22:12 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 07:23:03 EST, you write:

<< Elagabalus (or Heliogabalus) >>
Oh Gods, Graecus. He's Empire, not Republic. And you want to add another
perverted cult to Rome, after the fire we are under now? Can't we hold off a
little? (You know what offering you place on the Black Stone, right?)

Q Fabius

Subject:	Re: Deus Sol Invictus
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:04:30 -0000

Salve amice Q. Fabie!

><< Elagabalus (or Heliogabalus) >>
>Oh Gods, Graecus. He's Empire, not Republic.
True. But Nova Roma is the heir not only of the Republic. This was a
previous discussion. Nova Roma is a Republican heir of all Roman culture
from its beginning until the altar of Victory was removed from the Senate.
If you want toforget the Empire, you have to forget men like Seneca, Marcus
Aurelius and many others who contributed for the greatness of Roman culture
as we regard it today.

>And you want to add another
>perverted cult to Rome, after the fire we are under now? Can't we hold off
a
>little? (You know what offering you place on the Black Stone, right?)
The cult of Elagabalus was not preverted. Later writers greatly exagerated
the licenciousness of Emperor Elagabalus, mainly due to sexual prejudices
(Elagabalus is likely to have been transsexual) specially among the army.
Elagabalus' intentios were (it seems) more philosophic as the cult of Syrian
cult of Baal Elagabal already was. He wanted to revive paganism around his
God. He was badly understood at the time and his private life took its toll
on his objective.
Emperor Aurelian had a different character. He had a 'clean' personal life
and was more diplomatic and philosophic.
Julian was a philosopher.
So... Where is the preversion in philosophy?

Vale!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)


-----Original Message-----
From: SFP55@-------- SFP55@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 6:42 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Deus Sol Invictus


>From: SFP55@--------
>
>In a message dated 98-12-16 07:23:03 EST, you write:
>
><< Elagabalus (or Heliogabalus) >>
>Oh Gods, Graecus. He's Empire, not Republic. And you want to add another
>perverted cult to Rome, after the fire we are under now? Can't we hold off
a
>little? (You know what offering you place on the Black Stone, right?)
>
>Q Fabius
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:38:22 EST

In a message dated 12/16/98 10:49:19 AM Central Standard Time,
p--------s--------ne@-------- writes:

> Anyway, I am interested in the practices and the traditions that Roma
Antiqua
> observed to celebrate Saturnalia. I am only aware of the practice of gift-
> giving. What did they use to decorate, etc?

Many of the decorations involved greenery - swathes, garlands, wreaths, etc -
being hung over doorways and windows, and ornamenting stairs. Ornaments in
the trees included sun symbols, stars, and faces of the God Janus. Trees were
not brought indoors (the Germans started that tradition), but decorated where
they grew. Food was also a primary decoration - gilded cakes in a variety of
shapes were quite popular, and children and birds vied for the privilege of
denuding the trees of their treats. The commonest shapes were fertility
symbols, suns and moons and stars, baby shapes, and herd animal shapes
(although, to be honest, it's hard to tell if some of those ancient cookie
cutters are supposed to be goats or deer). I would imagine coins were also a
popular decoration/gift. People were just as likely to be ornamented as the
trees. Wearing greenery and jewelry of a sacred nature was apparently common,
based on descriptions, drawings, and the like from the era. Although the
emphasis was on Saturn, Sol Invictus got a fair share of the revelry as well.
Gold, because the sun is yellow, is always a sure choice for a good Saturnalia
decoration.

For modern Saturnalia, those golden glass ball ornaments are ideal, as are
gold sun faces, gold stars, and gilded anythings. GIlding nuts and pine cones
and nestling them among the swags and wreaths of greenery would be a lovely
way of acknowledging the ancient roots of this ceremony. Indoor trees are not
ancient Roman, but if you have plants growing indoors, decorating them would
certainly be in the spirit of the holidays. If you just have to have the now
traditional indoor tree, try decorating it in gold ornaments with a solar
theme. Swathe it in bright red or purple ribbons (2 colors quite in favor
with the Romans, and looks great with the gold ornaments). Top the tree with
a sun, rather than a star, for after all, this is a solar celebration.

The biddest part of Saturnalia was attitude more than decoration. Feasting,
drunkenness, merrymaking, hopefully the conception of more children (or at
least enjoying those activities which led to conception!), pranks, gift
giving, role reversals (not true ones, only symbolic ones - slaves weren't
really free to make a freedman's decisions and anything they did or decreed
would reverse at the end of Saturnalia, children weren't really adults and
could not enter into any binding contracts or make business deals, etc) and so
forth. The role reversals seemed to be more for minor privileges - slaves and
children got to be waited on for meals, and to lead the rituals, and to
participate in the revelry as if they were their parents/masters. The
parents/masters jokingly played the part of slaves and children by waiting on
them and making rude and bawdy jokes at their expense. Sometimes, it
descended into cruelty.

On a modern note - wild parties with lots of food and drink is good. Letting
the children of the household lead the common rituals, and waiting on them
(assuming you don't do so in everyday circumstances....) at mealtimes, and
defering to them in decisions on party ideas would work for role reversals.
No children in the house? Maybe you can borrow one for a day. We don't have
slaves (a blessing and a sadness - I think it's be great to have someone to do
my chores, and all I had to do was provide basic food, clothing, and a place
to sleep - on the other hand, I'd hate to be the slave...), but, for a nice
touch of role reversal, we could purchase the services of a nanny or a
housekeepr for the duration of Saturnalia. It would be a role reversal of
sorts, for instead of being the slave of your home, someone else would be
doing the chores and cooking and childcare while you got to party down!

Dancing and singing in the streets is now frowned upon, unless you can get a
parade permit. A parade, if you could organize it, would be fun. Imagine -
giant floats of the Gods tended by the priests and acolytes, musicians and
dancers, contortionists to amaze and delight, acrobats and jugglers, all in
honor of Saturn! Scattering something similar to the Mardi Gras coins would
be cool, too. Instead of people lining up to watch the parade, they'd be
encouraged to get out in the street and dance, too! Too bad we don't have
enough Nova Romans in any one city to carry this off....

Secunda Floria Zonara

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia traditions, new and old
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:59:39 -0500 (EST)

Well, I wish my slave-driving boss observed Saturnalia!

Hmmm...I liked the suggestion of role reversals to be practiced my our NR citizens, who wants to be a governor for a week?

Minervina Iucundia Flavia
Praetor SE USA Province
---- you wrote:
> From: SFP55@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-12-16 13:19:12 EST, you write:
>
> << As I understand it, Saturnalia was a time for role reversals, and Nova
> Romans might enjoy trying some as part of their celebrations. For
> instance, the partner who usually does the cooking or cleaning or
> shopping or wrapping might get a break or switch jobs.
> >>
> Tommorow and friday, Bandwagon Productions will be run by the assistants.
> Hopefully, we will lose no major deals because of this. However my assistants
> love this holiday now. Monday I have a big meeting at Universal, so it's only
> for two days, this year.
>
> Q Fabius
> (Whose Partners think He is crazy.)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>


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Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	"Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:03:42 PST

>Salvete!
>
> If these messages are meant to be funny-- I failed to see the joke.
But
>if these messages are sincere than I honestly feel that Nova Roma
should
>have a separate mailing list & chat room for the sexual deviants and
other
>potential trouble makers. At least than 'we' could keep tabs as to were
they
>were, and at the same time keep the NORMAL mailing list open for
meaningful
>and descent dialogue.
> Since the Gods are not setting any noticeable moral standards for
the
>citizens, unless they are acting indiscreetly, and what appears to be a
lack
>of interest amongst the general citizenry-- I have decided, with the
help of
>the divine logos, to add by distaste in these vial acts, and by doing
so I
>hope, with the help of others, to rid Nova Roma of the filth,
perverted,
>amoral, anti-community and loathsome creatures that might, and in all
>probability will, harm the great intentions that the good citizens hope
to
>achieve.
>
>Valete!
>Lucius Marconius Romanus
> Fortuna fortibus favet.
>
>


Go paedicare yourself.

--M. Gladius Saevus

Subject:	Birthdays
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:05:41 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, omnes!

Hey, since we are on the subject of celebrations and traditions, how did the Romani Antiqui celebrate birthdays? I ask this, because mine is right around the corner. (January 2nd HINT HINT!)

Studiose,

Minervina Iucundia Flavia
Praetor SE USA Provincia

PS: I will will promptly send anyone who responds with the answer of "Toga Party" a computer virus! ;O)

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Subject:	Re: Holiday Greetings
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:59:25 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 11:27:34 EST, you write:

<< Yup!!!! I'll be expcting child support beginning the first 15th of the
month
after his birth (unless you'd like to start early)!! LOL Oh yea...that's not
your problem....DAMN>>

Yeah...you better watch that! Or else he might end up in the soup afterall!
LOL


<<How'd the carroling go...that was the 10th right? >>


Nope...it's this Sunday (the 20th). So far 35 Pagans are planning to attend.
Yes Siree Bob...PAGANS! (ha ha).


I'll let you all know how it goes.


--Dexippus

Subject:	Morality reading was Hedonism
From:	Mike Ma--------r MikeMa--------r@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:21:27 -0500

Merullus wrote ...

>... a book title or two where I and others could read
>about lives of common Romans, including their morality?

There's a fair bit in Shelton, "As the Romans Did" (I posted this title on
the list a few days back). I guess that a good deal about the popular
morality of their time could also be found in the comic playwrights, e.g.
Plautus.

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	Mike Ma--------r MikeMa--------r@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:21:23 -0500

Sulla wrote ...

>... one, we are all adults. 2) nothing really explict has
>really been discussed. 3) you have the ulitmate control by just
>deleteing the mail if you find it personally offensive. Many of the
>individuals who have contributed to the psuedo-sexual jokes do
>contribute to meaningful ideas to the various debates that we have
>constantly going on in the Mailing Lists. Remember....you are an adult,
>if you dont like it...delete it..no one forces you to read it.

>As for imposing your own values and norms on the mailing list...if you
>attempt to do that..you wont have very many friends....so please.
>Dont, attempt it..or you will be very disenchanted with your experience
>with NR.

Hear, Hear!

An epitaph discovered at Rome:

"Baths, wine and sex ruin our bodies. But what makes life worth living
except baths, wine and sex?"
(Shelton, As the Romans Did, 308, translated from CIL 6.15258)

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:15:38 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 12:01:34 EST, you write:

<< I think I remember something about cutting a tree,
dragging that sucker to one of the temples, and hanging stuff on it (not
captured barbarians -- other stuff.) >>


I forgoe the tree...can't seem to get myself to bring a dying tree in the
house. As I watch everyone tie them onto the roofs of their cars lately, they
all seem like dead corpses. So I would usually buy a potted pine and decorate
it and keep it alive until the thaw and then plant it in the woods, but they
don't seem to take well there either.

So this year I went to one of the Tree Butcheries and asked for one of the
trunks they may have cut off to size it for the picky families. It's a nice
size log. So I brough it home and placed it on a bed of pine branches (also
taken from the butchery). I adheared three candles to the log (one white, one
red, and one green) to symbolize the cycle of life, death, and rebirth. I
decorated the log and branches with red beads and lights. It's rather pretty.

So this is my Yule Log. Without a fire place to burn it traditionally, I
thought the candles made an acceptable Neo-Pagan adaption. I'm planning a
small ritual on December 22 where I will light the candles to remind me of the
Sun's rebirth (white candle) and the promise of new beginnings and hope in the
new year, the fulfillment of oaths and deeds during the year (the red
candle...symbolizing the Sun at it's zenith), and the time of meditation and
contemplation (the green candle ...symbolizing the Sun at it's rest...it's
return to the underworld).

Ok...maybe too much info than you wanted, but hey...thought you might be
interested.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:06:54 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 11:48:13 EST, you write:

<< Anyway, I am interested in the practices and the traditions that Roma
Antiqua observed to celebrate Saturnalia. I am only aware of the practice of
gift-giving. What did they use to decorate, etc? >>


I remember reading somewhere that the Statue of Saturnus was unbound for this
Festival (it was usually kept with it's feet and arms bound in rope). I also
recall that the Romans celebrated with feasting and dancing. All work, war,
and business was set aside during the festival. Prisoners could be released
and no one was executed. Slaves traded places with their masters. Also,
someone was chosen as the Lord of Misrule...I think he was killed in the end.
Oh well C'est La Vie!

How do I plan to celebrate in our modern age? Well...since the festival runs
for seven days, I plan to do something wild on each day. The Pagan Yule Carol
is part of it (yep...planned it that way). Unfortunately I have to work, but
I plan on spreading good cheer throughout the office by wearing loud clothes
(well...more loud than usual) and a different Renaissance hat each day (have
lots from the Ren Fairres). I usually feed my dog after I have had
dinner...so during that week, little Artemis will receive her food first. Oh
and I'm trying to work in an Orgy! Yeah...so get over it you prudes! (you
know who you are). : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:25:49 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 14:46:07 EST, you write:

<< Top the tree with
a sun, rather than a star, for after all, this is a solar celebration. >>

A star works if your practicing a "Wiccan" type of spirituality. But Zonara
is right...for a Roman feel, a Sun or Solar object is best.

Last night at our company's Holiday Party, one of the Vice Presidents was
commenting on my broach pin (a brass Sun encircled by stars). It was given to
me as a Yule gift last weekend so I wore it to the party. He asked what it
meant and I told him that it was my Yule Gift. He said "What gift?". So I
went on to explain it...didn't say Pagan or Wiccan as I don't think he would
have understood it but I got the point across by saying that I celebrate the
Winter Solstice rather than Christmas.

Anyway...my point...he went on to say that since he is Jewish and his wife is
Catholic, their Menorah is encircled by a wreath and a Star of David tops the
Christmas Tree which is also decorated with Dredels.

So..all in all...whatever toots your flute will work!

Happy Holidays!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:	jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:29:34 -0500 (EST)

Thank You Secundia Floria Zonara for the detailed listing of the
Saturnalia decorations and ceremonies. My offering was a little
general, but you gave a good listing I shall save it for next year.
Thanks again!

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:10:31 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 17:28:04 EST, Dex writes:

<< Lord of Misrule...I think he was killed in the end. >>
Symbolic death only The office died, not the person.

Q Fabius

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:58:02 EST

In a message dated 98-12-16 17:28:21 EST, you write:

<< Oh
and I'm trying to work in an Orgy! Yeah...so get over it you prudes! (you
know who you are). : )

--Dexippus >>


Ummmm, DAMN, I seem to have misplaced your address!!!!!!!

Crys (packing)

Subject:	Re: Deus Sol Invictus
From:	Claud----------------oon@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:20:28 -0500

SFP55@-------- wrote:
>
> From: SFP55@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-12-16 07:23:03 EST, you write:
>
> << Elagabalus (or Heliogabalus) >>
> Oh Gods, Graecus. He's Empire, not Republic. And you want to add another
> perverted cult to Rome, after the fire we are under now? Can't we hold off a
> little? (You know what offering you place on the Black Stone, right?)

Besides, Elagabalus had the temerity to abduct a Vestal and force her
into marriage, using as his excuse that the Vestals were married to the
god Helios, i.e.: him. This alone would condemn the guy to eternal
disapproval in my book. Not only did he dishonor a Vestal, but he used
erroneous religious information to do it.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: alternative tree suggestion
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:28:41 -0500

Dexippus@-------- wrote:
>
> So I would usually buy a potted pine and decorate
> it and keep it alive until the thaw and then plant it in the woods, but they
> don't seem to take well there either.

I went to Home Depot and got a terrific potted 5ft Norfolk Pine (not the
usual pine that's supposed to go outside)-- it's meant to be a low-light
houseplant! Takes lights and decorations real well, and stays around all
year as it's own contribution to home decor! About $40. A bargain,
considering how much you'll spend on cut trees over the years.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia history
From:	Claudia missmoon@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:38:16 -0500

Dexippus@-------- wrote:
>

> I remember reading somewhere that the Statue of Saturnus was unbound for this
> Festival (it was usually kept with it's feet and arms bound in rope).

Saturnalia festivitis began with ritual and sacrifices in the Temple of
Saturn. The statue of the god was hollow and filled with olive oil, as a
symbol of his agricultural functions. His feet were bound with woolen
strips, that were unbound at Saturnalia.

After the rituals, the Senators (who had to be present) dismissed the
crowd with the cry of "Io, Saturnalia!", a sign for the happy
festivities of family parties and other private gatherings to begin. The
traditional gifts were wax tapers and little dolls, although gifts of
silver later became traditional.

The custom of the Lord of Misrule was appropriated by the you-know-whos
and survived through to English Christmas traditions.

So...where's my silver tea service, Dex?

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Hedonism censorship
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:59:57 -0500

At 13:10 17/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Pythia kingan@--------
>I don't think of my Gods as debauched and perverted. There are many
>stories told from many viewpoints
> depending upon the religious (or lack of) motivations of the story
>teller. Personally I look to Hesiod, and Aesop for guidance as too the
>nature of the Gods.

Salve, Pythia.
Of course your Gods are not debauched and perverted. That's just a label
that has been assigned to their behavior from the very narrow perspective
of our society. Such behavior does go against our social mores whether you
read Hesiod or Ovid or whomever. It doesn't mean they are bad. I adore my
Gods, and I think I have won their favor. May your Gods continue to favor
you as well.

Vale,
Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Christianos ad leonem!" -Tertullian

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia history
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:06:02 EST

In a message dated 12/16/98 7:40:50 PM EST, m--------oon@-------- wr--------:

<< So...where's my silver tea service, Dex? >>

Comin' right at ya! (_)- (Tea for Flavia Claudia)

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:33:09 EST

In a message dated 12/16/98 5:31:16 PM Central Standard Time,
jmath669642reng@-------- --------es:

> My offering was a little
> general, but you gave a good listing I shall save it for next year.

I'm honored. Thank you.

Having followed the Roman path for 40 plus years, I've garnered quite a list
of ways to celebrate all of the diffrent Roman feast days. Most of them
involve the same elements: feasting, dancing, music, rituals to the gods,
sex, games, and gifts (usually to the Gods, but often to one another as well).
Only the emphasis seems to change: which Gods are honored and who gets the
gifts. Sometimes certain foods are preferred over others - red foods at
Lupercalia, and fierce foods at Vestalia, and meats at the Fall Bacchanalia.
It's a luscius time, festivals are.

Secunda Floria Zonora

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:15:38 EST

Hello All,

I just wanted to share a quick Saturnalia idea that popped into my head today
while brooding over nothing to do at work.

As the Muse would have it, I was sitting around thinking of a way to
acknowledge each of the days of the Saturnalia festival. Being of the modern
age with our Pagan-unfriendly bosses making us work during this Festive
Holiday and scrambling to buy gifts for both Pagan and non-Pagan friends and
family, how can we take a few moments to honor each day of the Saturnalia
whether or not we plan festivities for the whole week?

Well...I came up with this. I went to the store after work and bought seven
small candle holders. (The ones I bought are real seasonal. They are made of
brass with little pine-cones, holly berries, and red ribbons tied around
them). I also bought seven red candles. When I got home, I placed some pine
branches (yes...left over from the Yule Log decorations mentioned in my
previous post) on my permanent altar where I do my meditations and prayers.
Then I encircled the seven candle holders around the center of the altar.

I guess you can see where this is going. Each day I plan to offer a prayer to
Saturnus and Ops and light a candle for that day's festivities. It's kinda
like a Pagan Menorah. At the end of the seven days, the Circle of Saturn will
be completely ablaze (during which time Yule will have also been celebrated).

So...just another inventive Saturnalia suggestion if anyone wants to adopt it
too. Sorry that it's such short notice, but like I said, I was just inspired
this afternoon.

Bright Blessings!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Saturnalia Practices and Traditions
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:49:19 EST

In a message dated 12/16/98 10:42:41 PM Central Standard Time,
Dexippus@-------- writes:

> I was just inspired
> this afternoon.

Inspiration strikes when and where it will, with no care for other activities
or deadlines....Thank you for sharing this one. As our Auger, we look to you
for such inspirations.

Secunda Floria Zonara

Subject:	OFFICIAL NOVA ROMA VOTE RESULTS
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:46:53 EST

Salvete, Omnes,

At last, the votes for the 1998 Nova Roma elections have been officially
counted!
The voter turnout was fairly low - out of 174 possible votes only 53 official
votes were cast. An additional three votes had to be discounted due to invalid
voter codes. There were also 17 Citizens who did not receive voter codes as
their Email addresses turned out to be inactive. The end result was
comparable to that of a medium-low voter turnout in a U.S. election...

In order of ballot listing, the election winners are:

CONSULAR ELECTION:

Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus - 42 votes

Decius Iunius Palladius - 40 votes


PRAETOR URBANIS ELECTION:

Lucius Cornelius Sulla - 29 votes

Marcus Mucius Scaevola Magister - 26 votes

(Quinta Claudia Lucenta resigned from the race after the ballot had been put
up, she received a total of 30 votes anyway, and would have won had she
remained in the race.)


QUAESTOR ELECTION:

Patricia Cassia - 45 votes

Marcus Minucius Audens - 34 votes

Stephanus Ullerius Venator - 37 votes


TRIBUNE OF THE PLEBS ELECTION:

Quintus Caecilius Metellus - 14 votes

Avidius Tullius Callidius - 18 votes

(Antonius Gryllus Graecus received 10 votes)


PLEBIAN AEDILE ELECTION:

Antonius Gryllus Graecus - 19 votes


Many congratulations to our new Magistrates for the coming year! I am sure
that all of them will work toward the benefit of Nova Roma! :) The elected
candidates will officially take office on January 1, 1999.

And finally, a brief commentary on the election turnout...

The low voter turnout is not as surprising as it may at first seem. While Nova
Roma has over 180 registered Citizens at that point, that does not mean that
everyone registered is terribly active. (Also, something like 10 newer
citizens joined after the "registration" deadline and did not receive voter
codes.) Just like in "major" nations, there are people who are content to be
on the official rolls without being in the thick of things. There are only
something less than 80 people subscribed to the Internet List for instance.
There is in addition the possibility that the "election process woes" we
suffered this year turned some Citizens away from participating. Next year
we'll have more experience and will no doubt have a much more Civilized
election season!

Everyone who participated in this election, both candidates and voters, should
be proud. A Micronation of less than 200 people has taken on one of the most
complex and difficult election systems ever devised, and managed to survive
it! :)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:25:59 -0800 (PST)

OK this is a LONG message
I have used 3 emails and responded to bits of them so just keep
reading through it and you'll get to the end eventually! :)


> Although I agree that you have a point in the subject of specific
sexual
> messages on this list, I would point out to you that the founders of
> this micro-nation were not governed by the culture or philosophy of
the
> Pilgrim Fathers of America.

Very true!

> As a British friend of mine indicated to me, when I mentioned that the
> play we were watching in London last year, was a little specific in
the
> above area. His reply was,"we're the ones that stayed here when the
> Pilgrims sailed, remember."

Yeah, we did!

> I remind you of that fact because this mico-nation is a refuge for
those
> who wish to practice religion in their ways, which is often criticised
> outside this place. This is also a place where we must find a common
> ground with ourselves, and make this effort work.
>
> Yes, it is true that many of the messages on this net are very
sexually
> specific, but a visit to Pompeii or any of the old roman cities will
> provide you with a detailed look into a healthy sexual view as a
natural
> and wonderful thing rather than a deeply shameful act to be performed
> behind closed doors. It is further correct that in the last few weeks
> in my personal recruiting efforts for Nova Roma, I have been told
that,

It is perfectly natural and to be seen as such!
I am not ashamed of such things.
We are not prude here!
> And now I return to you sir, and tell you now that there is no place
on
> this net for anyone who blatently insults my friends in the
despicabale
> way that you have without a retort in anger. I have not been angry
here
> before but I am now!!!!!!! Where were you during this first
election??
> What offices have you and do you hold now? What efforts have you
> involved yourself in for the GOOD of this micronation? For that
matter,
> just who are you, and by what right do you burst in here with your
> insults and your accusations?
> You do not care one dried fig, for this Nova Roma or you would have
the
> common sense to know that you will never succeed so much as one tiny
> grain of sand with your insults, your accusations and your blustering
> self-rightousness, which to honest Romans is more to feared than any
of
> the evils that lurk at the edge of darkness Begone thou apparition
and
> bother us no more until you may have learned the basis of a gentleman.
> Samsain is over-and we have no need of so vile and intemperate a beast
> within our midst.

I thank you Audens, amicus mihi.
You are correct in what you say and I thank you for defending me and
Dex thus. It is not for anyone to say we are unmorale or 'filthy' or
pervderted!
This is not what the mailing list is about!

> Marcus Minucius Audens
> Military Tribune
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>

>Salvete!

>If these messages are meant to be funny-- I failed
>to see the joke.

I'm sorry you fail to see the humour

>But if these messages are sincere than I honestly feel
>that Nova Roma should have a separate mailing list & >chat room for
>the sexual deviants and other potential trouble
>makers.

Excuse me?
Are you calling Dex, Flavia Claudia (only our Chief Vestal!) and
myself trouble causers?
On what basis do you make this assumption?
We are causing no trouble at all, we are just having a
bit of fun!

>At least than 'we' could keep tabs as to were they >were, and at the
same time keep the NORMAL mailing >list open for meaningful and
descent dialogue.

So you believe you have some right over us? You can keep tabs on us eh?
Why should you get that right?
If we were seriously offending a lot of people someone else would have
said something and, us not being the trouble causing malignants you
would have us be, we would not continue to post messages with this
sort of content.

>Since the Gods are not setting any noticeable moral
>standards for the citizens, unless they are acting >indiscreetly,

So you now what the Gods are doing?
How can you say such a thing?
The Gods are doing what they wish to do and no one can ask them to do
more than that!
>and what appears to be a lack of interest amongst the general citizenry

I don't think there's a lack of interest, the rest of the citizens are
probably reading and enjoying the fun!
>-- I have decided,with the help of the divine logos,

You have the say-so of the 'Divine Logos'?

>to add by distaste in these vial acts,
>and by doing so I hope, with the help of others, to >rid Nova Roma of
the filth, perverted, amoral, anti->community and loathsome creatures
that might,
>and in all probability will, harm the great >intentions that the good
citizens
>hope to achieve.

What?
I'm sorry but this is ridiculous!
I am not any of these thing which you would have me be!
I can safely assure you that Dex and Claudia aren't either!
If I was anti-community, why on earth would I have become a citizen?
So you wish to rid Nova Roma of me?
You have a heck of a job!

Valete!
Lucius Marconius Romanus


If ye don't like, delete!

Noct'a

An alleged filthy, perverted, amoral, anti-community and loathsome
creature

Subject:	Re: Hedonism
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:27:11 -0800 (PST)

OK this is a LONG message
I have used 3 emails and responded to bits of them so just keep
reading through it and you'll get to the end eventually! :)


> Although I agree that you have a point in the subject of specific
sexual
> messages on this list, I would point out to you that the founders of
> this micro-nation were not governed by the culture or philosophy of
the
> Pilgrim Fathers of America.

Very true!

> As a British friend of mine indicated to me, when I mentioned that the
> play we were watching in London last year, was a little specific in
the
> above area. His reply was,"we're the ones that stayed here when the
> Pilgrims sailed, remember."

Yeah, we did!

> I remind you of that fact because this mico-nation is a refuge for
those
> who wish to practice religion in their ways, which is often criticised
> outside this place. This is also a place where we must find a common
> ground with ourselves, and make this effort work.
>
> Yes, it is true that many of the messages on this net are very
sexually
> specific, but a visit to Pompeii or any of the old roman cities will
> provide you with a detailed look into a healthy sexual view as a
natural
> and wonderful thing rather than a deeply shameful act to be performed
> behind closed doors. It is further correct that in the last few weeks
> in my personal recruiting efforts for Nova Roma, I have been told
that,

It is perfectly natural and to be seen as such!
I am not ashamed of such things.
We are not prude here!
> And now I return to you sir, and tell you now that there is no place
on
> this net for anyone who blatently insults my friends in the
despicabale
> way that you have without a retort in anger. I have not been angry
here
> before but I am now!!!!!!! Where were you during this first
election??
> What offices have you and do you hold now? What efforts have you
> involved yourself in for the GOOD of this micronation? For that
matter,
> just who are you, and by what right do you burst in here with your
> insults and your accusations?
> You do not care one dried fig, for this Nova Roma or you would have
the
> common sense to know that you will never succeed so much as one tiny
> grain of sand with your insults, your accusations and your blustering
> self-rightousness, which to honest Romans is more to feared than any
of
> the evils that lurk at the edge of darkness Begone thou apparition
and
> bother us no more until you may have learned the basis of a gentleman.
> Samsain is over-and we have no need of so vile and intemperate a beast
> within our midst.

I thank you Audens, amicus mihi.
You are correct in what you say and I thank you for defending me and
Dex thus. It is not for anyone to say we are unmorale or 'filthy' or
pervderted!
This is not what the mailing list is about!

> Marcus Minucius Audens
> Military Tribune
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>

>Salvete!

>If these messages are meant to be funny-- I failed
>to see the joke.

I'm sorry you fail to see the humour

>But if these messages are sincere than I honestly feel
>that Nova Roma should have a separate mailing list & >chat room for
>the sexual deviants and other potential trouble
>makers.

Excuse me?
Are you calling Dex, Flavia Claudia (only our Chief Vestal!) and
myself trouble causers?
On what basis do you make this assumption?
We are causing no trouble at all, we are just having a
bit of fun!

>At least than 'we' could keep tabs as to were they >were, and at the
same time keep the NORMAL mailing >list open for meaningful and
descent dialogue.

So you believe you have some right over us? You can keep tabs on us eh?
Why should you get that right?
If we were seriously offending a lot of people someone else would have
said something and, us not being the trouble causing malignants you
would have us be, we would not continue to post messages with this
sort of content.

>Since the Gods are not setting any noticeable moral
>standards for the citizens, unless they are acting >indiscreetly,

So you now what the Gods are doing?
How can you say such a thing?
The Gods are doing what they wish to do and no one can ask them to do
more than that!
>and what appears to be a lack of interest amongst the general citizenry

I don't think there's a lack of interest, the rest of the citizens are
probably reading and enjoying the fun!
>-- I have decided,with the help of the divine logos,

You have the say-so of the 'Divine Logos'?

>to add by distaste in these vial acts,
>and by doing so I hope, with the help of others, to >rid Nova Roma of
the filth, perverted, amoral, anti->community and loathsome creatures
that might,
>and in all probability will, harm the great >intentions that the good
citizens
>hope to achieve.

What?
I'm sorry but this is ridiculous!
I am not any of these thing which you would have me be!
I can safely assure you that Dex and Claudia aren't either!
If I was anti-community, why on earth would I have become a citizen?
So you wish to rid Nova Roma of me?
You have a heck of a job!

Valete!
Lucius Marconius Romanus


If ye don't like, delete!

Noct'a

An alleged filthy, perverted, amoral, anti-community and loathsome
creature

Subject:	Re: OFFICIAL NOVA ROMA VOTE RESULTS
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:27:56 -0600

Strenuus Salus et Bonum Fortuna Omnes, Salvete!

> QUAESTOR ELECTION:
>
> Stephanus Ullerius Venator - 37 votes

I thank one and all for the confidence you have shown me by your precious gift of
a vote. I pledge that I shall do my best as a Quaestor for the People,
Constitution and Senate of Nova Rome.

I shall continue my efforts to found a Sodalis Coqueroro et Coquus, to craft
booklets as fund-raisers for our Nation and to be a strong advocate for Public
Religio/Private Belief.

Again, Mille Gratias - Piparbarbus Ullerius Venator - Quaestor elect
(Once known as - Stephanus Ullerius Venator)