Subject:	Marconius'Catholic post
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:28:36 +0000

I just thought you all might like to know that Marcus' diatribe was
copied from the "tradcath" list, and is a syndicated column by Joseph
Sobran.

So he did not actually author it...he copied it and bestowed it upon
us...which is even more peculiar....

All the best, and may we continue to reap the blessings of OUR Gods!
Pythia

Subject:	Re: Marconius'Catholic post
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 13:17:50 +0000

Lucius wrote:

"
>
> I am so SORRY! I had mistaken L M R for a valuable citizen in the
> past. I had agreed with him, Privately, that some of the posts to the list
> were not 'Pietas' et 'Pudicita', I was then morified to see what he had
> done. However, He has shown himself to be no friend of Nova Roma but instead
> against us.

Yes, I too agreed with Marconius about the tone of some of the posts to
this list...but this latest was so out of line! I add my voice to those
who insist he should be exiled...but I imagine he has already exhiled
himself.

Best, Pythia

Subject:	Re: Yule Celebrations(reports from around the globe)
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:56:03 EST

In a message dated 98-12-26 21:13:22 EST, you write:
<< SO did any body get any Roman theme gifts like I did? >>
Umm since most of my friends know i'm a Roman Historian, I got:

"The World of Josephus"
"Beyond the Inhabited World. Life beyond the Limes."
"Caesar against the Celts"
"War and Imperialism in Republican Rome."
"Training the Roman Cavalry"
Some Rare books This should get some of you salivating :)
"Soldier and Civilian in the Later Roman Empire."
"Agricola and Roman Britian"

I also got some Byzantine books and Xenophon's novel "Cyropaedia"
(Life of Cyrus the Great.)

Friends who came to my party brought not one, not two, but 3 Bacchuses!!
Statues that is.

I also got a HUGE plaque of the Forum in relief, 62" x 40" as a gift. I am
not sure where I'm going to put this.

As for the posts about the tree, Germans would bring a potted tree in.
I do the same. Mine is a 6' mountain pine, potted in a 3, 4" redwood box.
Before bringing the tree in, I smoke it, using oil smoke, this drives all the
creepy crawlys away, then wet it down, completly. I use a grow-aid in the
soil while the tree is indoors. The tree is brought in the 14th, and taken
out by the 27th.
Two weeks is about what exposure the tree can stand. Since my party is always
on the 2 friday of Dec, it means that the people that first show up at my
party, get the honor of bringing the the tree in. The tree is decorated by
each person who comes the party, i only use home made ornaments, candy,
and tinsel. (for Saturnalia). I found that the tree adds continunity for my
Christian friends, and the tree triming is always well received and has made
my parties big successes.

Valete
Q Fabius Maximus
(Former Altarboy, Holy Spirit Catholic Church)

Subject:	Re: Marconius'Catholic post
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:30:41 -0800

Salve, L. Equitius Cincinatus.

Time for my diet of Corvus. But first I'll quote you here:

Lucius wrote:
<snip>

> I am not Consul until next week, which means that I cannot yet
> convene the Senate for a vote, but I am Flamen Martialis, priest of the
> guardian deity of Roma, and as such I pronounce Lucius Marconius Romanus,
> 'Sacer' to Mars.
> Since we cannot actually sacrifice him under civil law for his

> <snip>

> blasphemies, Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus et Flamen
> Martialis

Why the Corvus for a midnight snack? Marconi's two latest posts. One could say
him being declared "sacer" would make Fannius's words legal. On that side of
it, Sulla believes that Fannius has violated the Constitution and should be
punished. Article I, Section 5. The part about Civil law, etc. I've sent a
post to Fannius suggesting that he post some sort of apology to "the good
citizens of Nova Roma" in hopes of defusing the legalistic ones. I hope I did
right. I hope I did it right. Lucius, can you get the Senate moving on the
matter of getting Marconi out of our hair? The sooner the better. Really!

Waiting for the next shot to fall,
C. Aelius Ericius
Praetor ad Californiam Provinciam
Pontiff
Insertor Caligae in Os

Subject:	An apology
From:	"Juan Correa" gehn@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:52:48 -0800

After having time to reflect on what I have said to Michael Marconi I
realize that my words were too severe and unjustified. Yes, I did threaten
Marconius, but by no means did I intend to deliver upon that threat, even if
I had an opportunity to do so.

At the moment that I replied to Marconius' email (subject: Jesus and the
liberals...) I simply wrote the harshest words I could produce at that
moment and sent it out instantly without thinking. I realize that I was
wrong and should have ignored Marconius' post or written a more polite
reply. When I wrote the reply I was furious at what he had posted. The
reasons for my feelings at that moment would take far too long to explain in
detail. My feelings were influenced by personal experience and what the
Christian Church has done through history.

I realize that I cannot change the past, but if there were a way to change
the past I would prevent myself from sending those words. All I can do now
is place myself at the mercy of the Senate, may it do what it considers
just.

Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives

Subject:	Re: Marconius'Catholic post
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 01:15:33 -0800

Ave Omnes,

Ok, let me first clarify Ericius statement. First I believe both
citizens have violated the Constitution. I have been in discussion with
Fannius and I have contacted Marconius. Fannius has responded to me,
and as apologized publically to the list. I am satisfied with his
response. I have yet to hear from Marconius.

My main concern regarding Fannius is quite simply the threatening of a
citizen...but even beyond that the threatening of a human being. While
Marconius is a citizen of Nova Roma, he is still a Roman. Hence the
threatening of physical harm is something we as Romans and Human Beings
should not have to tolerate at all. Hence my view that he has violated
Article 1 Sec. 5 which states, "Where conflicts between these arise, the
civil law shall prevail...." My concern was for every Roman, not just
Marconius, we all have some disagreements. But threatening physical
harm is NEVER the answer. And, as an elected Magistrate of Nova Roma, I
will do my duty to make certain all citizens are safe and allowed to
voice their opinions and concerns without fear of repercussion, whether
phyiscal or mental in nature.

However, I have had correspondence with Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives.
And, while he has admited what he stated. He has apologized. And I
personally am assured as to his sincere apology.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Praetor Urbanis - Elect

Razenna wrote:

> Salve, L. Equitius Cincinatus.
>
> Time for my diet of Corvus. But first I'll quote you here:
>
> Lucius wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> I am not Consul until next week, which means that I cannot
>> yet
>> convene the Senate for a vote, but I am Flamen Martialis, priest of
>> the
>> guardian deity of Roma, and as such I pronounce Lucius Marconius
>> Romanus,
>> 'Sacer' to Mars.
>> Since we cannot actually sacrifice him under civil law for his
>
>> <snip>
>
>> blasphemies, Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus et
>> Flamen Martialis
>
> Why the Corvus for a midnight snack? Marconi's two latest posts. One
> could say him being declared "sacer" would make Fannius's words
> legal. On that side of it, Sulla believes that Fannius has violated
> the Constitution and should be punished. Article I, Section 5. The
> part about Civil law, etc. I've sent a post to Fannius suggesting
> that he post some sort of apology to "the good citizens of Nova Roma"
> in hopes of defusing the legalistic ones. I hope I did right. I hope
> I did it right. Lucius, can you get the Senate moving on the matter
> of getting Marconi out of our hair? The sooner the better. Really!
>
> Waiting for the next shot to fall,
> C. Aelius Ericius
> Praetor ad Californiam Provinciam
> Pontiff
> Insertor Caligae in Os

Subject:	Re: Yule Celebrations(reports from around the globe)
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 04:54:48 -0500 (EST)

I got a nice gladius!! Does that count?? The Commander of the XXIVth
will be tickled as will the Commander of the XXth. Hmmmmmmmmm!! I
guess you had to be there !!

M. Minuciu (Adens)

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Ousting
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 05:04:06 -0500 (EST)

Relax Crys;

Nobody is going to get ousted!!! First of all the Senate has not yet
announced their agreement to even countenance their willingness to
consider such. Before anyone goes especially you, I'm sure thet the
membership will insure that of all people you would be singled out to
stay. Any thing like this especially with the Constitutional choices
not all in place, there will be some considerable discussion, and if the
Senate decides to let it go until after Jan.1st, here will be a couple
of Pleb Tribunes and other officers to hear from, so unpack your litle
ole it bag and hang around. Your no going anywhere except maybe south
to sample the GulfSea water !!!!!!! Ha Ha.

M. Minucius (Audens)

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Provacateurs (was: Jesus/liberals)
From:	"Manius Viaus Greco" greco@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 07:15:27 -0800

Salvete, omnes.

While I have not been active on the list for some time, I
have been following this thread with interest. I've dealt
with this type of problem before in administrating other
(pagan) organizations.

If this individual is to have his citizenship revoked, so
be it. That step is not likely to solve the problem,
however. The only way to do that is to make matters such as
this mailing list strictly moderated and accessible to only
those people whom the Consuls and Senators have personally
met and approved.

This is unfortunately one of the limitations in the
security of the medium.

My problem with the course being taken is this: with
software I have on my system now, and which is freely
available on the 'net to whoever wants it, I could fake
similar emails and make them appear that they are coming
from any citizen on this list. All it would take is some
basic finger info and a little research. Combine it with a
"denial of service" attack (making it impossible for the
target to respond in their own defense) it would be
relatively easy to ruin someone's reputation and place
their citizenship in danger of revocation. This is in fact
a common tactic for intergroup conflict (primarily between
online occult organizations) used on usenet and email
lists. Free services are especially at risk due to the
limited options available to the maintainers for
configuration.

The recent post regarding the Christmas death threat is a
case in point. If emails are going to be used as evidence
for the revocation of citizenship, some way of
authenticating the posts needs to be found and used
consistently. Otherwise we put ourselves at risk from the
hands of someone with a little savvy and the right tools.

Judgment needs to remain cool -- that's why the gods lived
in the heights.

Valete,
M. Viaus Greco


_________________________________________________________
Better than free email: shared calendar, files, and more...
Get your 'virtual briefcase' at <a href="http://www.visto.com/info" target="_top" >http://www.visto.com/info</a>

Subject:	Re: Ousting
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:15:25 EST

In a message dated 98-12-27 05:04:12 EST, you write:

My dear Audens (and everyone else...that is et al??)

> Relax Crys;

hehehe.....seems the closer I get to giving birth, the more people are telling
me to relax <G>

>
> Nobody is going to get ousted!!! First of all the Senate has not yet
> announced their agreement to even countenance their willingness to
> consider such.

Well, at the very least (as I try to relax <G>) someone should do something!!!
All due respect to Christianity, I do not care for conversion tactics.
Especially if they are obnixious (at best).

>Before anyone goes especially you, I'm sure thet the
> membership will insure that of all people you would be singled out to
> stay.

That's sweet. More than one person has said that to me. It's flattering.

>Any thing like this especially with the Constitutional choices
> not all in place, there will be some considerable discussion, and if the
> Senate decides to let it go until after Jan.1st, here will be a couple
> of Pleb Tribunes and other officers to hear from,

I would daresay that the Senate WILL put things off until January and maybe
longer. Then, I am waddling (walking), talking example of impatience these
days.

> so unpack your litle
> ole it bag and hang around. Your no going anywhere except maybe south
> to sample the GulfSea water !!!!!!! Ha Ha.
>

OH OH!!!!!!! A vacation?!?!?! That's so sweet of you Audens!!!!<G>

Well, I'll unpack my cyberbag (for now) and start preparing my hospital bag.
sigh. Many people invision Lapis ruining all my well laid plans and coming
before the section date (and yet not being premature). So, I'll pack for that
anyway.


> M. Minucius (Audens)

Crys (transfering togas from travelling bag to hospital bag)

Subject:	Re: Yule Celebrations(reports from around the globe)
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:15:35 EST

In a message dated 98-12-27 04:54:51 EST, you write:

> I got a nice gladius!! Does that count??

OK....I give up. Whats a gladius?? Is it some nice man to maybe do dishes
and babysit?? If so I would like to borrow him <G>.

Crys (trying to convince Terry that toys really DO belong in her playroom)

Subject:	Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:15:40 EST

In a message dated 98-12-27 04:16:16 EST, Sulla writes:

>
> Ok, let me first clarify Ericius statement. First I believe both
> citizens have violated the Constitution. I have been in discussion with
> Fannius and I have contacted Marconius. Fannius has responded to me,
> and as apologized publically to the list. I am satisfied with his
> response. I have yet to hear from Marconius.

It seems to me that Marconius is too 'holier than thou' (no pun intended) to
reply to ANYONE. I, too, believe both have violated the Constitution (which I
have managed to reread). However.........


>
> My main concern regarding Fannius is quite simply the threatening of a
> citizen...but even beyond that the threatening of a human being. While
> Marconius is a citizen of Nova Roma, he is still a Roman. Hence the
> threatening of physical harm is something we as Romans and Human Beings
> should not have to tolerate at all. Hence my view that he has violated
> Article 1 Sec. 5 which states, "Where conflicts between these arise, the
> civil law shall prevail...." My concern was for every Roman, not just
> Marconius, we all have some disagreements. But threatening physical
> harm is NEVER the answer. And, as an elected Magistrate of Nova Roma, I
> will do my duty to make certain all citizens are safe and allowed to
> voice their opinions and concerns without fear of repercussion, whether
> phyiscal or mental in nature.
>
> However, I have had correspondence with Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives.
> And, while he has admited what he stated. He has apologized. And I
> personally am assured as to his sincere apology.

Yes......here it is....

However (as stated above) I think the threat was stated in anger. I think
Marconiusis the worse of the two evils. Fannius should apoligize (which he
has) and get a good talking to about thinking before posting (i.e a good sharp
slap on the wrist). Marconis, by his very words ("> I wish to save souls>")
is violating the Constitution. Unless he reciently learned to read, he knew
we were MOSTLY Pagan when he signed up. So......he seems to have come in with
the intent of converting the majority of us (that means you too
Sulla.....being Jewish and not Christian....no matter how non-practicing you
may be).

The threats?? Hmmmmm. Maybe Dex should get in some sort of trouble for
threatening to immasculate the entire male populace (I think he was refering
to ALL males and not just those in NR) and maybe we should get Noct'a too for
agreeing with him. And Noct'a has thwacked at least ONE person I know of (I
refuse to gve up names). That's assult!!!! Isn't it? How many times have I
said "Sulla you should be slapped"?? What about the receint banter about
bondage (which probably started this whole mess)?

Honest, I am not trying to get anyone in trouble, but in the US anyway, it is
not illegal to simply say "I'm going to KILL you!!". If that were the case
most of this country would be in prison. Lapis father has stated in no
uncertain terms he wishes his son were not (ie dead). Minnesota does not
consider him a threat to my son, even if I do.

So, what's the answer? Watch your words? Disagree with a smile on your face?
I honestly don't get it. Somebody please 'splain.

>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
> Praetor Urbanis - Elect

Crys (who dosen't really expect her questions to be answered half the time,
unless she threatens someone <G>)

Subject:	Re: Yule Celebrations(reports from around the globe)
From:	Nodigio@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:38:36 EST

In a message dated 12/27/98 9:16:12 AM Central Standard Time,
M--------2Two@-------- writes:

> Whats a gladius??

It's a Roman short sword.
My ex is a swordsmith, and makes knives and swords and other such
ironmongery....damascus, plain, historical, and magical. Name a sword, and
I've probably pumped the forge during its making, and held it, and sharpened
it, and fought with it (don't have the strength to hammer it out,
though....some of those hammers weigh 10 pounds!!!!), and applied aloe to
burns caused by the forging of it... It was (and still is, to an extent) my
job to draw out the sword (or other item he wishes to forge), model it in clay
or carve it of wood so he could get a clear idea of how to make it. Needless
to say, my ex and I are friends (we were before our marriage, during it, and
remain so 8 years after the marriage ended.)

Secunda Floria Zonara

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?) my view Olivia
From:	Asseri@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:49:03 EST

In a message dated 12/27/98 10:17:56 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
M--------2Two@-------- writes:

<< So, what's the answer? Watch your words? Disagree with a smile on your
face?
I honestly don't get it. Somebody please 'splain

Crys (who dosen't really expect her questions to be answered half the time,
unless she threatens someone <G>)

Salve! All on this fine Sunday morning,
A long time ago in another life, I was heavily in Star Trek Fandom. I
belonged to a fan group called STARFLEET, and served as a regional officer of
Chaplains. There was woman that was in a chaplain in a Virginia chapter that
was giving a lot of people grief over their "real world" faiths. It turned
out that she had to get permission from her very conservative church to join
SF and in turn it was with the understanding that she was to bring as many
into the fold as possible. Sheesh what a headache she was.
Marconius post sounded just like her, rude and not very inviting.
Yes, I believe that marconius took the first swing and on Christmas Day no
less. Yes, I to believe that some sort of censorship needs to be done.
Banishing him may or may not be the best answer but I shall leave that to
those that I voted in place.

Nuts abound in life and most of them are unrepentant.

P.A. Olivia
(she who often writes her SCA name instead)

Subject:	Re: Jesus and the Liberals( or those that are blasphamious)
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:14:02 -0500

At 23:12 25/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>From: michael marconi mdm8@--------
> I remember all the negative e-mails that flooded the mailing list when
>I spoke, less than enthusiastically, about pagan Gods and morality. Many
>of you so-called pagans blatantly attacked all my issues and especially
>those which dealt anything that resembled or concerned your various
>God(s). Many of the same individuals are now the perpetrators of these
>anti Christian e-mails. Apparently you most believe that it is perfectly
>all right for to bash Christianity, and at the same time too hell with
>those that show displeasure in your conglomeration of myths and folk
>tales which you have the audacity to call a religion or a God. AT LEAST
>JESUS HAD WALKED THE EARTH AND HAD PERFORMED DOCUMENTED MIRACLES- you
>surly could not say likewise for the likes of Thor, Poseidon, Mercury,
>Diana..
Umm... I don't know about the rest of you, but after reading this first
paragraph I had difficulty reading the rest, though I did. It's not
generally good rhetoric to insult the audience whom you wish to convince of
your arguement.
After having my religion insulted on what I consider to be "homegrounds" I
am from now on choosing to delete any and all correspondence received from
one L--------s Marconi--------oman--------mdm8@--------). L--------ly there is a block
option in Eudora.
Because of your brazen insults, Romanus, you have lost the ability to
communicate your thoughts at all to me and any chances you had at
"enlightening" me.
And as for documented miracles, well there have been many others who have
walked this earth and performed documented miracles, but they are not
worshipped as "God."
And I would never take it upon myself to insult any aspect of the
Christian god, thus I do not appreciate your insulting of my pantheon. If
you have incurred their wrath, then so be it. May you suffer unto greatness
in the eyes of your jealous god as you so wish. As far as I'm concerned,
you no longer exist on this list.




> If your looking for the one and true God than I highly advise you to
>put away your old foolishness and pride and turn your hearts towards the
>traditional Catholic latin mass- not the new/modern mass of post Vatican
>II. Than you will more than likely, as I have, experience the truth. God
>is far greater than any of your false deities. And the magic in praying
>to the Saints, performing the church rituals and prayers is far greater
>than any witchcraft, pagan rituals... It is just a sad fact that very
>few Catholics now know of the full potential that radiates via the
>church which itself is nurtured by God's grace.
>
>
>HARD SAYINGS
>
>One of the most common charges against the Christian Right is that
>it's not "truly" Christian. Liberals call the Christian Right harsh,
>intolerant, judgmental, puritanical, eager to impose its views on
>others, and generally opposed to the spirit of Jesus.
>
>If Jesus were here, we are told, he would be gentle, nonjudgmental,
>and pluralistic, on the side of civil rights, gay rights and the
>welfare state; he would abhor the negativism of those who profess to
>speak in his name.
>
>Unfortunately, the Jesus of the Gospels bears no resemblance to this
>nice liberal Jesus. Liberals would find him downright un-Christian.
>
>Pluralism? Jesus claimed to be "the light of the world" and "the
>bread of life." He said things like this: "You are from beneath; I am
>from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world." He told
>his enemies: "You are from your father the devil."
>
>Jesus warned his disciples: "He who loves father or mother more than
>me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me
>is not worthy of me. And he who will not take up his cross and follow
>me is not worthy of me."
>
>Can't we all just get along? Isn't being nice what Christianity is
>all about? "Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth; I
>came to bring not peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man at
>odds with his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the
>daughter-in-law against the mother-in-law. And a man's enemies will
>be those of his own household."
>
>As for the idea that Jesus would be indulgent toward private acts
>between consenting adults, it was consent itself that he condemned:
>"Whoever looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery
>with her in his heart." You can't get much more puritanical than
>that!
>
>"So if your hand or your foot offends you, cut them off, and throw
>them away," he said. "And if your eye offends you, tear it out and
>throw it away."
>
>Tolerance? He told his apostles: "And whoever will not receive you,
>nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake
>the dust off your feet; truly I say to you, it shall be more
>tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment
>than for that city."
>
>He also warned that "of every idle word that men speak, they shall
>give account on the day of judgment." Time and again he said things
>liberals would find, well, severely disappointing: "The Son of Man
>shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom
>all things that offend, and them who do iniquity, and shall cast them
>into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
>" "The angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the
>just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire." "Whoever offends
>one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for
>him if a millstone were hung about his neck and if he were drowned in
>the depths of the sea."
>
>One trembles to say it, but all in all, Jesus probably wouldn't
>qualify for membership in People for the American Way. The Christian
>Right is at least much more in his style. Many of his sayings were so
>stern and frightening that they drove away his weaker disciples:
>"This is a hard saying," they would mutter; "who can accept it?"
>
>They are still hard sayings. They were necessary because Jesus had
>come to warn men that their souls were in danger, in need of
>repentance and redemption.
>
>After 2,000 years, Jesus is still hated. That may be the best clue to
>what he was and is; nobody today hates Julius Caesar. Caesar doesn't
>trouble you about your soul.
>
>But those who hate Jesus don't say so openly; they merely profess to
>admire a watered-down edition of his message, without the hard
>sayings.
>
>It comes down to this: Do we have souls, or not? If not, no problem.
>But what if we do?
>
>Valete!
>Lucius Marconius Romanus
>
>
>---
>Yo--------e c--------ntly s--------ribed to tradcath as: [mdm8@--------]
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----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Christianos ad leonem!" -Tertullian

Subject:	Answering attacks of Christian preecher Marconius
From:	Antonio Manuel Grilo amg@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:09:37 +0000 (WET)

Salve Marconi!

Your words were a blasphemy against the Roman nation. Nevertheless, I
shall answer you about religious aspects only, as a worshipper of Mithras.

You speak about salvation of souls and you may feel proud of your words,
just like a St. Ciprian or whatever. You give it just as a matter of
faith, but that is not worth of a true Creator God. That is worth of the
most wicked idol! For the Mystery of Mithras religions offera
salvation not to those who have faith, but to those who are good and honest
in their lives
, be they mithraists, worshipers of Cybele, jews... Or even Christians.
For the Mithraists, only the wicked receive punishment, and to be a mithraist
only means that you can reach salvation more quickly. It is a path more
difficult to follow than that of Christ... But much more worth of praise.
So Marconius, be good and honest and respect those who are so,
independently of their religion. Be modest, for that is an important
virtue, which I think your God Christ will take into account when
deciding the fate of your soul. So if you want to save souls, don't give
useless speeches about faith and Christ. Talk about honesty instead, for
Mithras has already created the path of salvation by spilling
the blood of the bull!

Vale!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
(Propraetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)

Subject:	Re: Patrician Status
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:23:12 -0500

At 13:36 25/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>From: Dexippus@--------
>In a m--------g--------t--------2/24/98 2:58:07 PM EST, al--------us@-------- writ--------/font>
><< Congrats Audens for now being a member of us, fellow bluebloods...who,
> as Ericius, once posted, have been lifted by
> Fortuna...lol...Well..anyway, you are now one of us. Congratulations. >>
>
>I second that! I'm just trying to get through 78 postings! Don't you people
>ever take a holiday?
>
<laugh> I second that as well! On both counts! Congratulations, Audens.
This is indeed good news.

Vale and Bright Blessings,
Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Christianos ad leonem!" -Tertullian

Subject:	Re: Jesus and the Liberals( or those that are blasphamious)
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:27:57 -0500

At 14:14 25/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In --------ss--------d-------- 12/25/98 0:51:52 AM EST, LSergAust@-------- writes:
>
><< Do we not need a law making it a crime for any citizen to publicly attack
> or hold up to public ridicule another citizen's religion? To refer to the
> Religio Romana or to any citizen's private religion as a "conglomeration
> of myths and folk tales which you have the audacity to call a religion or
> a God" is, to my thinking, sowing discord and intolerance that we don't
> need here. >>
>
>This and Romanus's flagrant disregard for his fellow citizen's personal
>spiritual beliefs is grounds for expulsion! I request the Senate to make it
>so.
>
I second that!!!!!!!!!!
Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Christianos ad leonem!" -Tertullian

Subject:	Re: Jesus and the Liberals( or those that are blasphamious)
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:29:27 -0500

At 14:44 25/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In a m--------g--------t--------2/25/98 2:19:38 PM EST, al--------us@-------- writ--------/font>
>
><< Dex..I dont think it would be the Senate...but the Censors...
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
> Praetor Urbanis - Elect >>
>
>Then I call upon the Censors to take the appropriate measures of expelling
>this disease from our midsts.
>
I second that as well!!! But seriously, there is no reason for us to sit
here and endure such behavior on our own "homeground." Deleting only does
so much :-(

Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Christianos ad leonem!" -Tertullian

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	Ira Adams iadams@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 11:35:02 -0600

Amethystia Ivnia Crystallina wrote:
[snip]
>.... Marconis, by his very words ("> I wish to save souls>")
>is violating the Constitution. Unless he reciently learned to read, he knew
>we were MOSTLY Pagan when he signed up. So......he seems to have come in with
>the intent of converting the majority of us (that means you too
>Sulla.....being Jewish and not Christian....no matter how non-practicing you
>may be).
[snip]
It is not all that clear that Marconius violated the Constitution --
wishes are not crimes. It is his conduct, not his wish, that is
unacceptable. It is hard to find any specific clause in the Constitution
that Marconius' conduct violates, but we all seem to agree that his
conduct is unacceptable and that we should not have to tolerate it here.

>Honest, I am not trying to get anyone in trouble, but in the US anyway, it is
>not illegal to simply say "I'm going to KILL you!!". If that were the case
[snip]
A credible threat against another person certainly is illegal in any
locality in the U.S. that I've ever been in. Go out into the streets of
wherever you are, pick someone out, and start shouting that you're going
to kill that person, and see what happens. {Actually, Amethystia Ivnia,
please DON'T do this.]
It is also a crime in Nova Roma, because to threaten harm against a
citizen violates their rights under Article II, Sec. 6.6.

So, no matter how offended we may be by Marconius' conduct, and no matter
how sympathetic we might feel toward Fannius' conduct, the fact is that
Fannius' actions were even more clearly illegal than were Marconius'
actions.

As far as Marconius is concerned, it may be that the most appropriate
response would be for other citizens to simply shun him by deleting his
posts unread.

But since both have been formally accused of criminal conduct, it is time
for the preatores urbani to get on with applying the law.

Salve et bona fortuna,

L. Sergius Aust.


************************************************************
I don't do .INI, .BAT, .CFG, or .SYS files. I don't assign
apps to files. I don't configure peripherals or networks
before using them. I don't manage IRQs and DMA channels,
either. My computer works for me, not the other way around.
I have a Macintosh.

Subject:	Re: Marconius'Catholic post
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:34:39 EST

Salvete Quirites!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla writes (re: Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives):
[snip]
>...Hence my view that he has violated
>Article 1 Sec. 5 which states, "Where conflicts between these arise, the
>civil law shall prevail...."
[snip]

Is there a conflict between Nova Roman and civil law here? Fannius
appears to me to have violated Marconius' guaranteed "right to remain
sovereign and SECURE WITHIN ONE'S own home, PERSON, and property;"
(Article II, Section 6.6.[emphasis mine]). I don't see how Article I,
Section 5 applies here.

Marconius has every right to charge Fannius. Our current praetores
urbanae (Decius Iunius and Lucius Equitius) would seem to be the ones who
should be administering the application of this law, since the charge has
been brought during their term of office. Lucius Cornelius does not have
that authority yet.

As far as Marconius' crime and punishment are concerned, Patricia Cassia,
as quaestor, has the duty to assist an assigned magistrate. I don't see
where the Constitution gives a quaestor any imperium allowing her to
abrogate a citizens constitutionally-guaranteed right to participate in
this forum (Article II, Section 6.4), no matter how richly he may deserve
it. He has not yet been convicted of a threat to the Republic, so nobody
seems to be yet entitled to forbid him to participate in this list
(unless maybe a praetor urbanis declares his conduct to actually pose an
"imminent and clear danger to the Republic."). Such authority probably
should exist, but it seems that right now it doesn't exist in law.

Quirites, can we PLEASE PROCEED ACCORDING TO OUR LAWS and not according
to our feelings? This past year has been characterized by extra-legal
proceedings and something approaching mob-rule at times. Will our
magistrates please perform their DUTIES?

Manius Viaus Greco wrote:
[snip]
>If this individual is to have his citizenship revoked, so
>be it. That step is not likely to solve the problem,
>however. The only way to do that is to make matters such as
>this mailing list strictly moderated and accessible to only
>those people whom the Consuls and Senators have personally
>met and approved.
[snip]
This idea is clearly unconstitutional. I, too, would like to see tighter
moderation of this list, with less oh-so-cute private chitchat AND less
personal attacks even when they don't reach the level of Fannius'
un-Roman outburst. However, we need to make some accomodation for
moderating the list without violating Article II, Sect. 6.4.

Perhaps we could have a "Nova Roma Forum List" for serious matters, and a
"Nova Roma Suburan Alley list" for the other stuff, with the former
tightly moderated and the latter "anything goes."

I suppose what I'm saying is, can we please start acting little more
Roman?

To those who have read this far, gratii.

Lucius Sergius Australicus


ita, te adloquor.

(Yeah, I'm talking to you.)

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:41:37 -0800

M--------2Two@-------- wrote:

> From: M--------2Two@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-12-27 04:16:16 EST, Sulla writes:
>
> >
> > Ok, let me first clarify Ericius statement. First I believe both
> > citizens have violated the Constitution. I have been in discussion with
> > Fannius and I have contacted Marconius. Fannius has responded to me,
> > and as apologized publically to the list. I am satisfied with his
> > response. I have yet to hear from Marconius.
>
> It seems to me that Marconius is too 'holier than thou' (no pun intended) to
> reply to ANYONE. I, too, believe both have violated the Constitution (which I
> have managed to reread). However........

> >
> > My main concern regarding Fannius is quite simply the threatening of a
> > citizen...but even beyond that the threatening of a human being. While
> > Marconius is a citizen of Nova Roma, he is still a Roman. Hence the
> > threatening of physical harm is something we as Romans and Human Beings
> > should not have to tolerate at all. Hence my view that he has violated
> > Article 1 Sec. 5 which states, "Where conflicts between these arise, the
> > civil law shall prevail...." My concern was for every Roman, not just
> > Marconius, we all have some disagreements. But threatening physical
> > harm is NEVER the answer. And, as an elected Magistrate of Nova Roma, I
> > will do my duty to make certain all citizens are safe and allowed to
> > voice their opinions and concerns without fear of repercussion, whether
> > phyiscal or mental in nature.
> >
> > However, I have had correspondence with Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives.
> > And, while he has admited what he stated. He has apologized. And I
> > personally am assured as to his sincere apology.
>
> Yes......here it is....
>
> However (as stated above) I think the threat was stated in anger. I think
> Marconiusis the worse of the two evils. Fannius should apoligize (which he
> has) and get a good talking to about thinking before posting (i.e a good sharp
> slap on the wrist). Marconis, by his very words ("> I wish to save souls>")
> is violating the Constitution. Unless he reciently learned to read, he knew
> we were MOSTLY Pagan when he signed up. So......he seems to have come in with
> the intent of converting the majority of us (that means you too
> Sulla.....being Jewish and not Christian....no matter how non-practicing you
> may be).
>

Marcoinus is aware..I consider myself attacked as much as you....as I told Ericius
in the Taverna when we originally had this conversation with him.

>
> The threats?? Hmmmmm. Maybe Dex should get in some sort of trouble for
> threatening to immasculate the entire male populace (I think he was refering
> to ALL males and not just those in NR) and maybe we should get Noct'a too for
> agreeing with him. And Noct'a has thwacked at least ONE person I know of (I
> refuse to gve up names). That's assult!!!! Isn't it? How many times have I
> said "Sulla you should be slapped"?? What about the receint banter about
> bondage (which probably started this whole mess)?
>

Come on Crys! There is a differnece between the banter that goes on the
Taverna.....and physical threats. The concern I had was pure and simple physical
threats should not be tolerated...as I have said I have spoken with Agelastus and
I am satisfied with his apology.

>
> Honest, I am not trying to get anyone in trouble, but in the US anyway, it is
> not illegal to simply say "I'm going to KILL you!!". If that were the case
> most of this country would be in prison. Lapis father has stated in no
> uncertain terms he wishes his son were not (ie dead). Minnesota does not
> consider him a threat to my son, even if I do.
>

Well..yes and no..Crys..it might be considered illegal to threaten....I dont
really want to go into semantics regarding this...but. well...My concern is for
All citizens...not just the present situation...but if this happens to occur in
the future...

>
> So, what's the answer? Watch your words? Disagree with a smile on your face?
> I honestly don't get it. Somebody please 'splain.
>
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
> Praetor Urbanis - Elect
>

Again its me! :)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Praetor Urbanis - Elect


>
> Crys (who dosen't really expect her questions to be answered half the time,
> unless she threatens someone <G>)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.

Subject:	Re: Patrician Status
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 13:38:54 EST

On a.d. IX Kal. Ianuarius, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus
announced
on behalf of the Senate of Nova Roma:
>Salvete Quirites
> I would like to make the announcement that the Senate has voted
>unanimously
>to include Gens Minucia within the Patrician Gentes. I hope that everyone
>will join
>me in congratulating Marcus Minucius Audens, Quaestor elect.
> May the Gods continue to bless Nova Roma with many more citizens like
>him.
>
I hate to be the Grinch That Stole Saturnalia, but in reading the
Constitution, I note that this action has to be approved or disapproved
by the Comitia Populi. The Senate has no power to make laws or elevate
gentes on its own. This should not be interpreted as an attempt to take
such an honor away from Marcus Minucius -- I'm certain he richly deserves
it. But, Dear Gods!, when are we going to start proceeding in accordance
with our LAWS????

Perhaps one of our quaestors should be detailed to the duty of reviewing
the legality of each action of our Senate and magistrates, since it
appears that the laws are often being overlooked or ignored. A
parliamentarian may be needed here.

Lucius Sergius Australicus


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Subject:	Re: Jesus and the Liberals( or those that are blasphamious)
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:08:17 EST

In a message dated 12/27/98 1:47:11 AM EST, mdm8@-------- writes:

<< I demand that Juan Correa's NR citizenship be stripped away from him on
the grounds that he knowingly and willfully threatened death to all the
NR Christian citizens. If I am stripped of my citizenship so should
Correa. >>

I believe his post was in response to the anger he experienced in reading your
post. And while I agree he should be reprimanded, I do not believe it should
be you calling for such. You have shown yourself to be as vicious and vile as
Correa in posting your Anti-Pagan message and should ritely be stripped of
your citizenship immediately. The remaining citizens will decide the fate of
Correa in turn.

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus

EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS

Subject:	Re: Darn!!!!
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:10:51 EST

In a message dated 12/27/98 2:10:14 AM EST, mdm8@-------- writes:

<< I wish to save souls while he threatens to
kill the Christian citizens of NR. He is a clear and present danger and
as such he must loss his citizenship! >>

You are in no position to be calling for such! You have violated our
Constitution and are now receiving the consequences of doing such. You should
ritely be stripped of your citizenship and all NR activities. You continue to
propegate your mission to convert the Pagan citizens of Nova Roma.

We will deal with Correa in turn but you have no say or right in this.

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus

EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS IMMEDIATELY

Subject:	Re: Patrician Status
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:24:23 -0500

Salvete Quirites

>On a.d. IX Kal. Ianuarius, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus
>announced
>on behalf of the Senate of Nova Roma:
>>Salvete Quirites
>> I would like to make the announcement that the Senate has voted
>>unanimously
>>to include Gens Minucia within the Patrician Gentes. I hope that everyone
>>will join
>>me in congratulating Marcus Minucius Audens, Quaestor elect.
>> May the Gods continue to bless Nova Roma with many more citizens like
>>him.
>>
>I hate to be the Grinch That Stole Saturnalia,

Then why don't you write the Senate instead of the Mail-list first?

> but in reading the
>Constitution, I note that this action has to be approved or disapproved
>by the Comitia Populi. The Senate has no power to make laws or elevate
>gentes on its own.

See ART VII sec 9 of the Constitution "Should the Censors determine that a
given Patrician gens is extinct, they may recommend to the Senate that a
given Plebian family be elevated to the rank of Patrician. The Senate may
then confirm the recommendation by majority vote."

Which is what we the Senate have done in every instance this first year. If
there is a problem it is that the Censores have not yet plublished the List
of Tribes and Centuries and who is in them.

Also there are a few contradictions in the Constitution but if you read ART.
V sec.1 "The supreme policy-making power of Nova Roma shall be invested
within the Senate,..." The Senate does have authority to include Gens
Minucia within the Patrician Gentes.

>This should not be interpreted as an attempt to take
>such an honor away from Marcus Minucius -- I'm certain he richly deserves
>it. But, Dear Gods!, when are we going to start proceeding in accordance
>with our LAWS????
>
Good Question, I suppose when the Censores Form and Plublish the Tribes and
Centuries.

>Perhaps one of our quaestors should be detailed to the duty of reviewing
>the legality of each action of our Senate and magistrates, since it
>appears that the laws are often being overlooked or ignored. A
>parliamentarian may be needed here.

No, this is a duty of the Praetores Urbani.

Vale. L Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus

Subject:	Re: An apology
From:
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:24:03 EST

In a messa--------ated 12/27/98 3:51:15 AM EST, --------@-------- writes:

<< After having time to reflect on what I have said to Michael Marconi I
realize that my words were too severe and unjustified. Yes, I did threaten
Marconius, but by no means did I intend to deliver upon that threat, even if
I had an opportunity to do so. >> etc.

Citizens of Nova Roma, I call you now to act in due response to the violations
of our Constitution, the threats against our Citizens one and all, and to the
continued decay of our unity.

I have called for the immediate dismissal of Lucius Marconius Romanus on the
grounds that he has violated two articles of our Constitution on more than one
occasion and has shown no interest in the further development of Nova Roma and
the ideals we hold (i.e. the restoration of the Religio Romana, the Pagan
Religion of Ancient Rome). His posts have been insulting, degrading,
attacking, and down-right vile.

We now have seen citizen Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives publically threaten
not only the forementioned vandal above, but all Christian citizens of our
Republic. This too must not go unanswered.

In light that this seems to be Fannius' first offense and for one which he has
posted a public apology explaining his anger and his haste in writing a
response, I call for the Senate, Censors, or whatever institution be
responsible to publically reprimand Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives for his
threat. Fannius should be placed on a probation period of sort in which the
violation of such will result in immediate revocation of citizenship.

Lucius Marconius Romanus has been informed once before of his wrongful posting
and disruption of the harmony of our Republic. This second offense, this
ministrial christian/catholic propaganda post on the Birthday of Sol Invictus
Mithras, must be answered with the immediate revocation of his citizenship.
He must not be allowed re-entry into Nova Roma as he has shown himself to be
an enemy of the state and Senate. He must furthermore not have any say in the
decision regarding Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives as his citizenship
revocation should be retroactive to the day of his vile post.

I call upon you, Friends, Romans, Countryfolk...let us act in unison against
this decadense and the further corruption of our Republic!

Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
Augur, Nova Roma

Subject:	Re: Ousting
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:30:10 EST

In a message dated 12/27/98 5:04:09 AM EST, jmath669642reng@-------- --------es:

<< Nobody is going to get ousted!!! First of all the Senate has not yet
announced their agreement to even countenance their willingness to
consider such. >>

I hereby reinforce my statement that if the vile and disruptive post of Lucius
Marconius Romanus goes unanswered without a revoking of citizenship, then I
will have to rethink my involvement in this organization.

I will not be a party or contribute to the development of an organization that
allows my person, my spiritual beliefs, or my conciousness to be personally
attacked, ridiculed, or degraded!

EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS NOW!

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
Augur, Nova Roma

Subject:	Re: Provacateurs (was: Jesus/liberals)
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:37:10 EST

In a message dated 12/27/98 10:15:30 AM EST, greco@-------- writes:

<< The recent post regarding the Christmas death threat is a
case in point. If emails are going to be used as evidence
for the revocation of citizenship, some way of
authenticating the posts needs to be found and used
consistently. Otherwise we put ourselves at risk from the
hands of someone with a little savvy and the right tools. >>

I do not believe this is a valid concern as of yet. Romanus has previously
posted an Anti-Pagan message with no response claiming that someone else was
using his e-mail handle without his permission. He has openly acknowledged
that it was of his origin and the same with his second anti-Pagan post on xmas
day.

Fannius' threat too was verified as his own by his own apology and the board.
No one has claimed his threat to be of unknown origin.

Let's not become paranoid on this board. I do believe we need to screen new
citizens to ensure that they will not be disruptive to this list. But that
can be done with a very short interview and a careful eye. Let's not censure
this list.

--Dexippus

EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS NOW!

Subject:	Re: Ousting
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:40:17 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/27/98 10:15:38 AM EST, M--------2Two@-------- writes:

<< I would daresay that the Senate WILL put things off until January and maybe
longer. Then, I am waddling (walking), talking example of impatience these
days. >>

This I will not tolerate! This is an easy open and shut case! Romanus has
clearly violated our Constitution on more than one account within less than a
3 week period. I call for his IMMEDIATE dismissal as a citizen of Nova Roma.
Any less is a slap in the face to the Pagan citizens (and all citizens) of
this Republic!

Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
Augur, Nova Roma

EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS NOW!

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:44:48 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/27/98 10:16:26 AM EST, M--------2Two@-------- writes:

<< However (as stated above) I think the threat was stated in anger. I think
Marconiusis the worse of the two evils. Fannius should apoligize (which he
has) and get a good talking to about thinking before posting (i.e a good
sharp
slap on the wrist). Marconis, by his very words ("> I wish to save souls>")
is violating the Constitution. Unless he reciently learned to read, he knew
we were MOSTLY Pagan when he signed up. So......he seems to have come in
with
the intent of converting the majority of us (that means you too
Sulla.....being Jewish and not Christian....no matter how non-practicing you
may be). >>

Crystallina has shown herself wise!

--Dexippus

EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS NOW!

Subject:	Re: Apology
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:57:54 EST

In a message dated 12/27/98 12:25:40 PM EST, mdm8@-------- writes:

<< It is true that much of what I had said was often derogatory, or
taken for such, and in a manner that was unbecoming a Roman. But, I was
sickened by the barrage of attacks against Christianity which had
occurred in the last couple of months. These attacks ranged from the
sublime, too ridiculing, too vile attacks upon the Pope and the Vatican.
My response to the said attacks was one of fury and vice. My choice of
word usage was often wrong or misunderstood -and for which I am deeply
saddened. I apologize! I have no ill content for any citizen of NR. Juan
Corrae words, like my own, were said in the heat of anger. Often when
one's anger is his driving force the brain ceases to function and the
mouth takes over. >>

I do not accept this apology!

People of Rome do not be fooled! There have been no attacks upon Christianity
or the Catholic Pope on this list. We have spoken of our uneasiness with
sitting down at xmas dinner with our Christian families and how it has made us
feel uncomfortable. We have spoken of our alternative beliefs and practices
and our own personal views of this season.

It is Romanus who has violently attacked the Pagan Faiths! It is Romanus who
has previously been reprimanded for his previously violations! It is Romanus
who has attacked not only the Pagan Citizens of Nova Roma but both our sacred
and secular institutions!

Let us do right by our Nation! EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS NOW!

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
Augur, Nova Roma

Subject:	Re: Marconius'Catholic post
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 15:02:00 EST

In a message dated 98-12-27 12:35:42 EST, you write:

> This idea is clearly unconstitutional. I, too, would like to see tighter
> moderation of this list, with less oh-so-cute private chitchat AND less
> personal attacks even when they don't reach the level of Fannius'
> un-Roman outburst. However, we need to make some accomodation for
> moderating the list without violating Article II, Sect. 6.4.
>
> Perhaps we could have a "Nova Roma Forum List" for serious matters, and a
> "Nova Roma Suburan Alley list" for the other stuff, with the former
> tightly moderated and the latter "anything goes."


And my childrens posts would go where????

Crys (Don't make me get up and waddle over there -- Nova Roma Suburban Alley
INDEED)

Subject:	Re: Apology
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 15:01:56 EST

In a message dated 98-12-27 12:25:49 EST, you write:

> These attacks ranged from the
> sublime, too ridiculing, too vile attacks upon the Pope and the Vatican.


HUH???? I remember someone talking about rading the Vatican and throwing the
Pope out, but *I* didn't think they were serious.

>Often when
>one's anger is his driving force the brain ceases to function and the
>mouth takes over.

You must have temper control problems then, cause you've acted a fool more
than once.

Crys

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 15:01:58 EST

In a message dated 98-12-27 12:35:18 EST, you write:

> A credible threat against another person certainly is illegal in any
> locality in the U.S. that I've ever been in. Go out into the streets of
> wherever you are, pick someone out, and start shouting that you're going
> to kill that person, and see what happens. {Actually, Amethystia Ivnia,
> please DON'T do this.]

Good!!! Then Lapis father is in a great deal of trouble for threatening the
life of his child then? Funny, the state of MN dosen't seem to thnk it's such
a big deal.

As far as threatening people in the street.......I could always blame
'hormonal mood swings' <G>. This happens all the time in Chicago. Seems no
one there cares either. It gets written off as insanity.

Crys (COO-COO COO-COO)

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 15:03:25 EST

In a m--------g--------t--------2/27/98 12:35:04 PM EST, iadams@-------- writ--------br>
<< It is not all that clear that Marconius violated the Constitution --
wishes are not crimes. It is his conduct, not his wish, that is
unacceptable. It is hard to find any specific clause in the Constitution
that Marconius' conduct violates, but we all seem to agree that his
conduct is unacceptable and that we should not have to tolerate it here. >>

I must disagree! Marconius has violated at least two articles of our
constituion on two seperate occasions:

Article I Sec. 2 which states Nova Roma's primary functions shall be to
promote the study and practice of the Ancient Roman Pagan Religion


Article VI Sec. 1 which states that , Citizens need not be practitioners
of the Religio Romano, BUT may not engage in any activity that
intentionally blasphemes or defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its
practitioners.

This is just cause for dismissal.

Fannius' actions were the result of being insulted by Marconius Romanus and
will be dealt with appropriately. He has offered a public apology and has
agreed to accept whatever punishment befall him from our Senate.

Marconius' meager attempt at an apology continued to show his blatant Anti-
Pagan sentiment by declaring his christian mission "to save souls". He has
shown himself no friend of Rome.

EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS!

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
Augur, Nova Roma

Subject:	Re: Marconius'Catholic post
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 15:07:25 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/27/98 12:35:14 PM EST, LSergAust@-------- writes:

<< Marconius has every right to charge Fannius. Our current praetores
urbanae (Decius Iunius and Lucius Equitius) would seem to be the ones who
should be administering the application of this law, since the charge has
been brought during their term of office. Lucius Cornelius does not have
that authority yet. >>

Marconius has no right to charge Fannius. Fannius has been declared with
making unwarranted threats and will be dealt with seperately. Marconius is
trying to use Fannius to alleviate himself from prosecution.

EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS IMMEDIATELY!

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
Augur, Nova Roma

Subject:	Re: Provacateurs (was: Jesus/liberals)
From:	"Juan Correa" gehn@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:11:43 -0800

This is how easy it is to send an email and make it appear from another
source, although upon close inspection of the headers it is possible to see
where it really comes from.

Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives

-----Original Message-----
From: Dexippus@-------- [m--------o:Dexippus@--------]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 1998 11:37 AM
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Provacateurs (was: Jesus/liberals)

From: Dexippus@--------

In a message dated 12/27/98 10:15:30 AM EST, greco@-------- writes:

<< The recent post regarding the Christmas death threat is a
case in point. If emails are going to be used as evidence
for the revocation of citizenship, some way of
authenticating the posts needs to be found and used
consistently. Otherwise we put ourselves at risk from the
hands of someone with a little savvy and the right tools. >>

Subject:	Re: Provacateurs (was: Jesus/liberals)
From:	"Juan Correa" gehn@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:21:46 -0800

I messed up on this one, I accidentally sent from my real account instead of
a from a fake address. I tried it again with the fake address and it appears
that the list will filter out messages sent to it from unsubscribe
addresses. Which is good, but all one needs to do is to get an account with
a fake email address and then it would work. But, if I or someone else tried
this on an individual instead of the list it would work.

Lucius Fannius

-----Original Message-----
From: Juan Correa [mailto:--------@--------]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 1998 12:12 PM
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Provacateurs (was: Jesus/liberals)

From: "Juan Correa" --------@--------

This is how easy it is to send an email and make it appear from another
source, although upon close inspection of the headers it is possible to see
where it really comes from.

Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives

-----Original Message-----
From: Dexippus@-------- [m--------o:Dexippus@--------]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 1998 11:37 AM
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Provacateurs (was: Jesus/liberals)

From: Dexippus@--------

In a message dated 12/27/98 10:15:30 AM EST, greco@-------- writes:

<< The recent post regarding the Christmas death threat is a
case in point. If emails are going to be used as evidence
for the revocation of citizenship, some way of
authenticating the posts needs to be found and used
consistently. Otherwise we put ourselves at risk from the
hands of someone with a little savvy and the right tools. >>


------------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	JoeBloch@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 15:52:24 EST

Salvete Omnes,

In a message dated 12/27/98 12:35:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
iadams@-------- writ--------br>
> It is hard to find any specific clause in the Constitution
> that Marconius' conduct violates, but we all seem to agree that his
> conduct is unacceptable and that we should not have to tolerate it here.
>

Actually, it is very easy to find that clause. Check our Section VI, Paragraph
1, which states (in part):

"Citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana, but may not engage
in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or defames the Gods, the Religio
Romana, or its practitioners..."

I could present you with a list of exerpts from Romanus' 12/24 email that
fulfill those conditions admirably. If you read the first and second
paragraphs carefully, I'm sure you can make your own list.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Co-Founder, Senator

Subject:	Re: No thanks
From:	missmoon missmoon@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:03:44 -0500

michael marconi wrote:
>

>
> Corrae is a
> threat to all the citizens. I wish to save souls while

Thanks a lot, but nobody here needs their 'souls saved' especially by
you.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Fannius' punishment
From:	missmoon missmoon@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:12:43 -0500

Juan Correa wrote:

> I realize that I cannot change the past, but if there were a way to change
> the past I would prevent myself from sending those words. All I can do now
> is place myself at the mercy of the Senate, may it do what it considers
> just.
>
>
>Well, Fannius....speaking as a private person and not for the Senate, this particular Senator (as a Vestal) orders you to extend your wrist...

***SLAP!***

Bad, bad Fannius!!

I can see where you were really angry, but let's consider what Patricia
Cassia once suggested: write your e-mail, but wait a few hours before
you send it. We have an awful lot of nice Christian and Jewish citizens
here who are tolerant and don't proseletyze. Try to consider their
feelings, first. At least your apology speaks well for your dignitas.

-- Flavia Claudia Juliana

Subject:	Re: Provacateurs (was: Jesus/liberals)
From:	m--------oon m--------oon@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:16:29 -0500

Manius Viaus Greco wrote:
>

>
> The recent post regarding the Christmas death threat is a
> case in point. If emails are going to be used as evidence
> for the revocation of citizenship, some way of
> authenticating the posts needs to be found and used
> consistently. Otherwise we put ourselves at risk from the
> hands of someone with a little savvy and the right tools.

This is why the Gods invented the low-tech telephone. The Consuls have
access to the Citizen database with real-world addresses and phone
numbers, so it's pretty easy to talk to the people involved. If someone
gave us a fake phone or address, that kind of speaks for itself, doesn't
it?
>
Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Apology not accepted
From:	m--------oon m--------oon@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:22:28 -0500

michael marconi wrote:
> My
> choice of word usage was often wrong or misunderstood -and for which I
> am deeply saddened. I apologize! I have no ill content for any citizen
> of NR. Juan Corrae words, like my own, were said in the heat of anger.
> Often when one's anger is his driving force the brain ceases to
> function and the mouth takes over.
>
Okay, that **may** explain the first instance. So what explains your
stated mission of "saving souls"? If that's what you're here for, go
find some street corner and hand out your tracts, but don't presume to
lecture any of us on what our souls need. Look to your own soul.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Internet Skills?????
From:	jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:27:16 -0500 (EST)

I thank you very much for this information. It is a thought-provoking
message indeed!! Ido not know agrat deal (virtually nothing) about the
technical side of the web, but I am aware that as we stand relatively at
a standstill in our technical point for whatever reason, others more
interested in pressing the envelope hve gone far beyond our present
scope. I will have the honor of taking office as Quaestor on the 1st of
January, and would ask your willingnes to be a technical advisor to me
at least over the net year for the technical side of our involvement
with the net. Your duties would be light, answering a few questions
about the area you have responded so well to. I can promise youfull
credit for anything derived from your information.

Thank you for your your technical and moral insight in this matter. I
do not think that your comments apply to either gentleman in this case
as both have admitted to their actions and one at least ontinues to
bombard the NR with the same Christian Nonsence that has driven many
peple away from Christianity to seek out a more loving and friendly
belief.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Marconius'Catholic post
From:	Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:34:13 -0800

Salve Omnes...

Ok Crys.....I think its time..for you to start your back alley NR list. Its
time! :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla

M--------2Two@-------- wrote:

> From: M--------2Two@--------
>
> In a message dated 98-12-27 12:35:42 EST, you write:
>
> > This idea is clearly unconstitutional. I, too, would like to see tighter
> > moderation of this list, with less oh-so-cute private chitchat AND less
> > personal attacks even when they don't reach the level of Fannius'
> > un-Roman outburst. However, we need to make some accomodation for
> > moderating the list without violating Article II, Sect. 6.4.
> >
> > Perhaps we could have a "Nova Roma Forum List" for serious matters, and a
> > "Nova Roma Suburan Alley list" for the other stuff, with the former
> > tightly moderated and the latter "anything goes."
>
> And my childrens posts would go where????
>
> Crys (Don't make me get up and waddle over there -- Nova Roma Suburban Alley
> INDEED)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.

Subject:	Gladius
From:	jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:50:19 -0500 (EST)

Ahhh, My Dear such sweet innocence!!! The gladius is the thrusting
sword designed for the use of the legions, believed by many to be
derived from a Spanish Sword. It is the mark of the Legio Shield and
Sword line, and the use of it and other attendant weapons of the
legions. It certinly is the servant of the empire if any inanimate
object ever was and has won the Republic the dubious name of empire. It
was therefore a great "servant" of the Roman Soldier, but alas, of it's
many attributes, was not designed for the slicing of "onions.

Your Humble Servant;
Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Patrician Status
From:	jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 18:06:59 -0500 (EST)

Salve. Iustina Luciania Orbianna;

I thank you for your most kind words and thoughts. I have often been
both amused and impresded with your posts to this list, and I welcome
the opportunity to get to know you better. I am honored to call friend

Vale, My Friend

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Fwd: [NRBack_Alley] Welcome to <a href="mailto:NRBack_Alley@--------" >NRBack_Alley@--------</a>
From:
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 18:16:50 EST

Salvete,

Sulla it is done!! Anybody who is interested please emailme and I will add
you to the list. This list IS unpublished, and I would appreciate being asked
before anyone joins the list on their own. I am not kidding, this is NOT a
joke. I'm done pussyfooting around worried about who I am going to offend.
Apparently ignoring isn't working and a branch list has been mentioned more
than once. I am not a Senator, but I *am* the owner and moderator of this
list.

So if you want to kid around about invading the Vatican or joke about
Bondage.....let me know and I'll add you on. If you offend easially.....don't
even ask.

Valete,

Crys (hanging out in her cyber-back-yard waiting to get talked to)

Subject:	Re: Jesus/liberals
From:	"Manius Viaus Greco" greco@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 15:39:12 -0800

Salvete, omnes.

I wrote:

> >If this individual is to have his citizenship
> revoked, so
> >be it. That step is not likely to solve the problem,
> >however. The only way to do that is to make matters
> such as
> >this mailing list strictly moderated and accessible
> to only
> >those people whom the Consuls and Senators have
> personally
> >met and approved.

To which L. Sergius Australicus replied:

> This idea is clearly unconstitutional. I, too,
> would like to see tighter
> moderation of this list, with less oh-so-cute private
> chitchat AND less
> personal attacks even when they don't reach the
> level of Fannius'
> un-Roman outburst. However, we need to make some
> accomodation for
> moderating the list without violating Article II,
> Sect. 6.4.

I agree that such a restriction is a severe stopgap and
most likely unconstitutional. My point in mentioning it was
to demonstrate the measures that would need to be taken to
control the type of postings made, preventatively. It was
not a formal recommendation.

But it does reflect the reality that we face.

Do our Senators and Consuls have the experience and the
knowledge to deal with a potentially hostile on-line
environment? Does our Constitution?

This is asked with respect and in a spirit of genuine
inquiry.

Valete,
M. Viaus Greco

_________________________________________________________
Better than free email: shared calendar, files, and more...
Get your 'virtual briefcase' at <a href="http://www.visto.com/info" target="_top" >http://www.visto.com/info</a>

Subject:	Re: Fwd: [NRBack_Alley] Welcome to <a href="mailto:NRBack_Alley@--------" >NRBack_Alley@--------</a>
From:
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 18:36:24 EST

Girlfriend...

You add me to that list! <<SNAP>> And I promise to let the flood gates open
as I have been holding back here for sometime!

CULTIVATE YOUR INNER DIVA!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: No thanks
From:	jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:04:19 -0500 (EST)

Actually my dear, I can not thank him for anything he has done. I am a
Christain and all of you know that, but I am a Christain with a great
love of all things Roman especially military and naval because of my pst
background. But I tell you now, that we the unannounced, hopefully
quiet and level-headed (still working on that, Sorry!!) have been
hounded into our homes, places of work and churches of the Protestant
Faith by the "fire and gospel" believers such as this stupd fellow who
is disrupting this NR. I do not thank him for hs effort as it is the
same effort that led Phillip of Spain to force Jews into damaged ships
and causd hm to sink in the depths of the Mediterranean as a means of
ridding the world of such.

His is the kind that fought the wars of the lowlands and murdered
civilans over the differences between ideas of scripture, and his is the
relion that burned the Last of the Great Knights of Malta at the stake
for the Christain conquests at the word of the church that dispatched
the knights.

No my dear, I do not thank Marconius for anything except a headache and
the sureity that such are they not held under strong leash or totally
banished would not go to "any" lengths to hang "your immortal soul" upon
his religious scalp belt. Marconis is not interested in any degree
whatever in "saving your soul" he is only interested in portraying his
"game bag" to higher authority. His motives are clear to one who has
fled this sort of thing from childhood to adulthood. His clumsy
stupidity in attempting to carry out a relatively straight forward
mission should not mask his true intent. Dexippus is absolutely right,
this mongrel will lie in his teeth, because his religion does not count
lying to those not of the faith a lie. His priest will absolve him of
all lying sins for a donation to the church and he will be free to
strike again. Believe me citizens I know how these peope work, I once
was one of them for a short time before my conscience forbade me
further. Ihave come to Christ in my own way and did not need such as he
to publish lies and half truths about the bible. I know this letter is
hard to take, on your own ground, but itis the simple truth and the
warnings of Dexippus again are right on.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Beware the lies of the fanatic when he is in pursuit of prey!!!!

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Gladius
From:	Mater2Two@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:37:43 EST

In a message dated 98-12-27 17:50:47 EST, you write:

> but alas, of it's
> many attributes, was not designed for the slicing of "onions.


DAMN!!!! Oh well.....guess I'm stuck washing my own dishes and slicing my own
onions.

Crys (never gets a break <G>)

Subject:	Re: Catholicism and Christianity
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:41:10 -0800 (PST)

>
> A. Iulia wrote:
>
> > From: "A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
> >
> > > Actually, Catholics are Christians. There are several sects of
> > Catholicism
> > > (Roman, Anglican,
> >
> > Actually Anglicans are Church of England - protestants.
> > They just tend to be very high CofE so confusing them with Catholics
> > is easy LOL
> >
> > >
> > > Vartarius Quentius
> > > www.livinghistory.org
> >
> > Noct'a
>
> Actaully Noct'a, I've known a number of Anglicans and Episcoplaians
(the
> Yank name for the same kirk) refer to themselves as Anglo-Catholics.
As
> differentiated from Roman-Catholics.

LOL well in Brit, they'd not like to be referred to as Catholics!


> Ericius
> (who is married to a nominal one)
>
Noct'a

Subject:	Re: Okay, I couldn't resist...
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:56:22 -0800 (PST)

>
> michael marconi wrote:
> >
> > If your looking for the one and true God
>
> No, but I AM looking for a good set of speakers...
>
>
> > II. Than you will more than likely, as I have, experience the
truth. God
> > is far greater than any of your false deities.
>
> Even MICHAEL JORDAN??? Never!
>
> Deities with falsies? Are we talkin' silicone, or just good ol'
> fashioned foam rubber?
>
>
> > Pluralism? Jesus claimed to be "the light of the world" and "the
> > bread of life."
>
> Umm. Did he say pumpernickle or 7-grain?
>
> He said things like this: "You are from beneath; I am
> > from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."
>
> This is TRUE! I saw it on X-Files!
>
> > Jesus warned his disciples: "He who loves father or mother more than
> > me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than
me
> > is not worthy of me. And he who will not take up his cross and
follow
> > me is not worthy of me."
>
> So did Jim Jones, I think. Take up your Kool-Aid and follow me, he
said.
>
> > Can't we all just get along? Isn't being nice what Christianity is
> > all about?
>
> Not the kind you practice, I notice.
>
> "Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth; I
> > came to bring not peace, but a sword.
>
> Great! Will he bring me one?? I could use a real good Gladius.
>
> For I have come to set a man at
> > odds with his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the
> > daughter-in-law against the mother-in-law.
>
> This is news? I saw this on Melrose Place.
>
> And a man's enemies will
> > be those of his own household."
>
> Damn. Good help is sure hard to find.
> >
>
> > "Whoever looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery
> > with her in his heart." You can't get much more puritanical than
> > that!
> >
> Or more Presidential! Just ask Jimmy Carter!
>
> > "So if your hand or your foot offends you, cut them off, and throw
> > them away," he said. "And if your eye offends you, tear it out and
> > throw it away."
>
> EEEEUUUWWWW! Is this a religious tract or a Stephen King short story?
> And you shouldn't throw perfectly good parts away when you can get big
> bucks for 'em on the Transplant Black Market. "Got any livers?" "Go
> fish!"
> >
> > Tolerance? He told his apostles: "And whoever will not receive you,
> > nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake
> > the dust off your feet;
>
> My Mom told me always to wipe my feet before coming into the
house,too.
> Little did I know she was being Scripturally Correct!
>
> >
> > One trembles to say it, but all in all, Jesus probably wouldn't
> > qualify for membership in People for the American Way.
>
> Sure he would! I'm a member and I'd sponsor him myself!
>
> The Christian
> > Right is at least much more in his style.
>
> I'd love to hear HIS opinion on that.
>
> >
> > After 2,000 years, Jesus is still hated.
>
> He is? First I'd heard of it. I thought he was a pretty nice guy,
> myself.
>
> > what he was and is; nobody today hates Julius Caesar
> Caesar doesn't
> > trouble you about your soul.
>
> No,but he did pass on a few rather embarrassing little social
diseases,
> that scamp.
> >
> >
> > It comes down to this: Do we have souls, or not? If not, no problem.
> > But what if we do?
>
> If we do, I sure hope Dis takes MINE 'cause I certainly don't want to
> share any heaven with YOU.

Why Claudia, ye've opened my eyes to a whole new world inside the Bible!

Thank ye!

>
> -- Flavia Claudia
>

Noct'a

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:38:41 -0500

Salvete Luci Sergi et alii cives




:From: Ira Adams iadams@--------
:
:It is not all that clear that Marconius violated the Constitution --

I think that he did. The Constitution, Article VI paragraph 1 states -

Citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana, but may not engage
in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or defames the Gods, the
Religio Romana, or its practitioners,

A trial would seem to be in order to determine whether Romanus' post
constituted defamation, but, there is certainly a case there for it.

:wishes are not crimes. It is his conduct, not his wish, that is
:unacceptable. It is hard to find any specific clause in the Constitution
:that Marconius' conduct violates, but we all seem to agree that his
:conduct is unacceptable and that we should not have to tolerate it here.

Well, I think that Lucius Equitius and I, at least, have found the clause.
See above.
:
:A credible threat against another person certainly is illegal in any
:locality in the U.S. that I've ever been in. Go out into the streets of
:wherever you are, pick someone out, and start shouting that you're going
:to kill that person, and see what happens. {Actually, Amethystia Ivnia,
:please DON'T do this.]
:It is also a crime in Nova Roma, because to threaten harm against a
:citizen violates their rights under Article II, Sec. 6.6.

I believe all of what you say in this paragraph to be true.
:
:So, no matter how offended we may be by Marconius' conduct, and no matter
:how sympathetic we might feel toward Fannius' conduct, the fact is that
:Fannius' actions were even more clearly illegal than were Marconius'
:actions.

I am not sure about that. Both seem blatantly illegal to me.
:
:As far as Marconius is concerned, it may be that the most appropriate
:response would be for other citizens to simply shun him by deleting his
:posts unread.

And then put him on trial.
:
:But since both have been formally accused of criminal conduct, it is time
:for the preatores urbani to get on with applying the law.

I agree.
:
:Salve et bona fortuna,
:
:L. Sergius Aust.
:
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Marconius'Catholic post
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:42:16 -0500

Salvete Lucii et alii



:From: LSergAust@--------
:
:Lucius Cornelius Sulla writes (re: Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives):
:[snip]
:>...Hence my view that he has violated
:>Article 1 Sec. 5 which states, "Where conflicts between these arise, the
:>civil law shall prevail...."
:[snip]
:
:Is there a conflict between Nova Roman and civil law here
:(Article II, Section 6.6.[emphasis mine]). I don't see how Article I,
:Section 5 applies here.

I did not see that either.
:
:Marconius has every right to charge Fannius. Our current praetores
:urbanae (Decius Iunius and Lucius Equitius) would seem to be the ones who
:should be administering the application of this law, since the charge has
:been brought during their term of office. Lucius Cornelius does not have
:that authority yet.

True, although Lucius Cornelius is at least as entitled to voice an opinion
as I am or anyone else here.
:
:As far as Marconius' crime and punishment are concerned, Patricia Cassia,
:as quaestor, has the duty to assist an assigned magistrate. I don't see
:where the Constitution gives a quaestor any imperium allowing her to
:abrogate a citizens constitutionally-guaranteed right to participate in
:this forum (Article II, Section 6.4), no matter how richly he may deserve
:it. He has not yet been convicted of a threat to the Republic, so nobody
:seems to be yet entitled to forbid him to participate in this list
:(unless maybe a praetor urbanis declares his conduct to actually pose an
:"imminent and clear danger to the Republic."). Such authority probably
:should exist, but it seems that right now it doesn't exist in law.

I believe everything that you say in this paragraph above to be correct.
:
:Quirites, can we PLEASE PROCEED ACCORDING TO OUR LAWS and not according
:to our feelings? This past year has been characterized by extra-legal
:proceedings and something approaching mob-rule at times. Will our
:magistrates please perform their DUTIES?

"Me too".
:
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Constitutional watchdogging was Re: Patrician Status
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:50:41 -0500

Salvete Luci Sergi et alii



:From: LSergAust@--------
:
:On a.d. IX Kal. Ianuarius, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus
:announced
:on behalf of the Senate of Nova Roma:

Good job reckoning time the right way! What does 'a. d.' stand for? I need
to get with the program with time reckoning.

---Cincinnatus' elevation announcement snipped---------

:I hate to be the Grinch That Stole Saturnalia, but in reading the
:Constitution, I note that this action has to be approved or disapproved
:by the Comitia Populi. The Senate has no power to make laws or elevate
:gentes on its own. This should not be interpreted as an attempt to take
:such an honor away from Marcus Minucius -- I'm certain he richly deserves
:it. But, Dear Gods!, when are we going to start proceeding in accordance
:with our LAWS????
:
:Perhaps one of our quaestors should be detailed to the duty of reviewing
:the legality of each action of our Senate and magistrates, since it
:appears that the laws are often being overlooked or ignored. A
:parliamentarian may be needed here.
:

I do not know that we need to go so far as to build this responsibility into
a magistrate's duties; I for one think that you are doing a terrific job of
comparing the actions of the Senate and magistrates to the Constitution and
informing us of discrepancies.

As long as there's a number of cives that read the Constitution and maintain
this type of discourse, I am confident that we'll be all right. The only
scenarios in which such voluntary policing wont work involve usurpations of
power by some senators and/or magistrates, which will implode Nova Roma
rapidly. The whole issue will then become moot, as we'll all go our
separate ways quickly I'm sure.

:Lucius Sergius Australicus
:
:
Valete


Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Ousting
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:57:12 -0500

Salvete Dexippe et alii

How about putting him on trial and deleting his posts until it's resolved?

:
:This I will not tolerate! This is an easy open and shut case! Romanus has
:clearly violated our Constitution on more than one account within less than
a
:3 week period. I call for his IMMEDIATE dismissal as a citizen of Nova
Roma.
:Any less is a slap in the face to the Pagan citizens (and all citizens) of
:this Republic!
:
:Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
:Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
:Augur, Nova Roma
:
:EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS NOW!
:
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Apology
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:01:22 -0500

Salvete omnes


:
:> These attacks ranged from the
:> sublime, too ridiculing, too vile attacks upon the Pope and the Vatican.
:
:
:HUH???? I remember someone talking about rading the Vatican and throwing
the
:Pope out, but *I* didn't think they were serious.
:
And how did you surmise that these posts were not serious? Did you not
think that they might offend someone?

Really, folks, if we use this forum as a place to ridicule anything, we'll
eventually have more enemies in our midst and more violators to put on
trial.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Apology not accepted
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:07:42 -0500

Salvete Flavia Claudia et alii



:From: m--------oon m--------oon@--------
:
:michael marconi wrote:
:> My
:> choice of word usage was often wrong or misunderstood -and for which I
:> am deeply saddened. I apologize! I have no ill content for any citizen
:> of NR. Juan Corrae words, like my own, were said in the heat of anger.
:> Often when one's anger is his driving force the brain ceases to
:> function and the mouth takes over.
:>
:Okay, that **may** explain the first instance. So what explains your
:stated mission of "saving souls"? If that's what you're here for, go
:find some street corner and hand out your tracts, but don't presume to
:lecture any of us on what our souls need. Look to your own soul.

And let's not forget that, on top of the offensive, unconstitutional content
of the message, it was plagiarized as well, as Patricia Cassia, I believe,
pointed out.

The fact that the apology does not explain this really makes it worthless in
my estimation.
:
:-- Flavia Claudia
:
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Fwd: [NRBack_Alley] Welcome to <a href="mailto:NRBack_Alley@--------" >NRBack_Alley@--------</a>
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:09:50 -0500

Salvete Crystallina et alii



:Salvete,
:
:So if you want to kid around about invading the Vatican or joke about
:Bondage.....let me know and I'll add you on. If you offend
easially.....don't
:even ask.

I think that it's a good idea.
:
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Gladius
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:25:57 -0500 (EST)

My dear Crys;

Please elevate your teary eyes beyond that of the grey kitchen washtub,
and fix your faculties upon the Glory and Honor brought to the Repubic
by such an instrument, wielded in hands of a Roman Officer dedicated to
the growth of the Roman Ideals. Military Glory which blazes across the
heavens of our world with such a brilliance as to still leave the faint
fire of glory upon it's broken remains 2000+ years later.

Really My dear, can the slicing of onions compare with that!!!!!!!!!<G>
(-: (-: (-;

M. Minucius (Audens)

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Ousting
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:30:48 -0800 (PST)

>
> << No more sexual inuenos(although I may have missed the ones
> that offended, or I just don't offend very well), no more kidding
around --
> we
> stick to the facts, the history as it relates to Roma and Rome
only. This
> way
> no one is ever insulted. Then, it would be SO boring, I would
unsub from the
> list at least. >>
>
> I too would leave in a heartbeat!

As would I


> --Dexippus
>
> EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS!

Noct'a

Subject:	Re: Catholicism and Christianity
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:30:23 -0500 (EST)

You would be much better off calling Canadian Navy "limies" The effct
is the same, instant dislike and pandemonium, but dealt with in a much
baser attitude and action. <G> (-: (- (-:

M. Minucius (Audens)

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 18:56:57 -0800 (PST)

> Sulla.....being Jewish and not Christian....no matter how
non-practicing you
> may be).
>
> The threats?? Hmmmmm. Maybe Dex should get in some sort of
trouble for
> threatening to immasculate the entire male populace (I think he was
refering
> to ALL males and not just those in NR) and maybe we should get
Noct'a too for
> agreeing with him. And Noct'a has thwacked at least ONE person I
know of (I
> refuse to gve up names). That's assult!!!! Isn't it? How many
times have I
> said "Sulla you should be slapped"?? What about the receint banter
about
> bondage (which probably started this whole mess)?
>
LOL yeah, I've been thwacked too!!!
LOL


> Crys (who dosen't really expect her questions to be answered half
the time,
> unless she threatens someone <G>)

Hey! I'll answer anythin ye want sweetie!

Unless it's who thwacked me LOL!

Noct'a
*Rubbing botty after thwacks (MEG)*

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?) my view Olivia
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:08:10 -0800 (PST)

>
> Salve! All on this fine Sunday morning,
> A long time ago in another life, I was heavily in Star Trek Fandom. I
> belonged to a fan group called STARFLEET, and served as a regional
officer of
> Chaplains.


Kaplah!

You belonged to Starfleet?
WOW!!
I can't afford it :(


Noct'a
*Decides not to insult anyone (mentioning no names) in Klingon coz
someone may know it*
I

There was woman that was in a chaplain in a Virginia chapter that
> was giving a lot of people grief over their "real world" faiths. It
turned
> out that she had to get permission from her very conservative church
to join
> SF and in turn it was with the understanding that she was to bring
as many
> into the fold as possible. Sheesh what a headache she was.
> Marconius post sounded just like her, rude and not very inviting.
> Yes, I believe that marconius took the first swing and on Christmas
Day no
> less. Yes, I to believe that some sort of censorship needs to be
done.
> Banishing him may or may not be the best answer but I shall leave
that to
> those that I voted in place.
>
> Nuts abound in life and most of them are unrepentant.
>
> P.A. Olivia
> (she who often writes her SCA name instead)
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius my view Olivia now StarTRek
From:	Asseri@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 22:45:51 EST

In a message dated 12/27/98 10:07:27 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
iuliacaesaria@-------- writes:

<< Kaplah!

You belonged to Starfleet?
WOW!!
I can't afford it :( >>
It was a veryyy long time ago. Actually it was Starfleet International. A less
expensive group. But I would belong in a heart beat..oh wait a minute there
was an Orginal trek episode about Rome..So that means I can get my Trek and
Roman fix from one group!!
ohh will wonders never cease!! Nova Roma covers it all...
(Hope I didn''t offend any Trekkers )

In servcie
P.A. Olivia

Subject:	Re: Patrician Status
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 23:32:10 EST

From: "Lucius" v--------l@--------
[snip]
>>I hate to be the Grinch That Stole Saturnalia,
>
>Then why don't you write the Senate instead of the Mail-list first?
Because I don't know any other way to address the Senate than through
this list. If there is a posted email address for mailing the Senate,
then I confess to have missed it. Please point me to it.

>> but in reading the
>>Constitution, I note that this action has to be approved or disapproved
>>by the Comitia Populi. The Senate has no power to make laws or elevate
>>gentes on its own.
>
>See ART VII sec 9 of the Constitution "Should the Censors determine that a
>given Patrician gens is extinct, they may recommend to the Senate that a
>given Plebian family be elevated to the rank of Patrician. The Senate may
>then confirm the recommendation by majority vote."
This appears to contradict the section which makes the Comitia Populi
responsible for approving/disapproving such actions.
>
>Which is what we the Senate have done in every instance this first year. If
>there is a problem it is that the Censores have not yet plublished the List
>of Tribes and Centuries and who is in them.
Agreed.
>
>Also there are a few contradictions in the Constitution but if you read ART.
>V sec.1 "The supreme policy-making power of Nova Roma shall be invested
>within the Senate,..." The Senate does have authority to include Gens
>Minucia within the Patrician Gentes.
This is not a contradiction -- it makes clear that the Senate makes
policy and recommends laws, while the Comitiae make the laws. That is how
it worked in Roma Antiqua, also.
>
>>This should not be interpreted as an attempt to take
>>such an honor away from Marcus Minucius -- I'm certain he richly deserves
>>it. But, Dear Gods!, when are we going to start proceeding in accordance
>>with our LAWS????
>>
>Good Question, I suppose when the Censores Form and Plublish the Tribes and
>Centuries.
>
>>Perhaps one of our quaestors should be detailed to the duty of reviewing
>>the legality of each action of our Senate and magistrates, since it
>>appears that the laws are often being overlooked or ignored. A
>>parliamentarian may be needed here.
>
>No, this is a duty of the Praetores Urbani.
OK, I'm glad there's somebody to do this. I understand that there's still
a lot of confusion and ambiguity, and somethings are probably open to
interpretation one way or another. Just so long as somebody is watching
it.

>
>Vale. L Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Subject:	Re: Marconius'Catholic post
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 23:32:15 EST

From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In --------ss--------d-------- 12/27/98 12:35:14 PM EST, LSergAust@-------- writes:
>
><< Marconius has every right to charge Fannius. Our current praetores
> urbanae (Decius Iunius and Lucius Equitius) would seem to be the ones who
> should be administering the application of this law, since the charge has
> been brought during their term of office. Lucius Cornelius does not have
> that authority yet. >>
>
>Marconius has no right to charge Fannius. Fannius has been declared with
>making unwarranted threats and will be dealt with seperately. Marconius is
>trying to use Fannius to alleviate himself from prosecution.

Marconius is a citizen who was publically threatened by Fannius.
Marconius has a right to charge Fannius. It is not for you or for me to
say what will be done about it. I fully expect that the magistrates who
are responsible for dealing with it will deal with it. We can certainly
express our opinions about it, and I think we have both done so.

>EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS IMMEDIATELY!
>
Marconius delendum est? ;-)

Vale,
L. Sergius Aust.

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 23:32:13 EST

From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In a m--------g--------t--------2/27/98 12:35:04 PM EST, iadams@-------- writ--------/font>
>
><< It is not all that clear that Marconius violated the Constitution --
> wishes are not crimes. It is his conduct, not his wish, that is
> unacceptable. It is hard to find any specific clause in the Constitution
> that Marconius' conduct violates, but we all seem to agree that his
> conduct is unacceptable and that we should not have to tolerate it here. >>
>
>I must disagree! Marconius has violated at least two articles of our
>constituion on two seperate occasions:
>
>Article I Sec. 2 which states Nova Roma's primary functions shall be to
>promote the study and practice of the Ancient Roman Pagan Religion
This is not really relevant to prosecuting Marconius.
>
>Article VI Sec. 1 which states that , Citizens need not be practitioners
>of the Religio Romano, BUT may not engage in any activity that
>intentionally blasphemes or defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its
>practitioners.
You're right here. I looked for that section earlier, but overlooked it.
>This is just cause for dismissal.
>
>Fannius' actions were the result of being insulted by Marconius Romanus and
>will be dealt with appropriately. He has offered a public apology and has
>agreed to accept whatever punishment befall him from our Senate.
Wrong venue -- the Senate is not a court. Marconius must stand trial.

>Marconius' meager attempt at an apology continued to show his blatant Anti-
>Pagan sentiment by declaring his christian mission "to save souls". He has
>shown himself no friend of Rome.
>
>EXPEL LUCIUS MARCONIUS ROMANUS!
>
>--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
>Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
>Augur, Nova Roma
I agree that Marconius deserves exile or revocation of citizenship for
blasphemy, but it needs to be done legally. (Remember what happened to
Cicero for summarily executing Roman citizens without a trial.)

L. Sergius Aust.


id quod circumiret, circumveniat.

(What goes around, comes around.)

Subject:	Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 23:32:18 EST

>From: JoeBloch@--------
>
>Salvete Omnes,
>
>In a message dated 12/27/98 12:35:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>iadams@-------- writ--------/font>
>
>> It is hard to find any specific clause in the Constitution
>> that Marconius' conduct violates, but we all seem to agree that his
>> conduct is unacceptable and that we should not have to tolerate it here.
>>
>
>Actually, it is very easy to find that clause. Check our Section VI,
>Paragraph
>1, which states (in part):
>
>"Citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio Romana, but may not engage
>in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or defames the Gods, the
>Religio
>Romana, or its practitioners..."
>
>I could present you with a list of exerpts from Romanus' 12/24 email that
>fulfill those conditions admirably. If you read the first and second
>paragraphs carefully, I'm sure you can make your own list.
>
>Vale,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>Co-Founder, Senator
Agreed. I thought that was there but I somehow failed to find it in a
quick look through what I thought were the relevant sections. He has
clearly violated this provision.

I am painfully aware of how he blasphemed and defamed the Religio as well
as everyone's private religious preferences. Now I only hope that we
handle it legally instead of by a lynching.

Vale,
Lucius Sergius Australicus

Subject:	Re: Catholicism and Christianity
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Dec 1998 22:07:45 -0800

I've also found fun in calling Aussies Limeys. I was quick when i was
younger.
(VBEG) =({;-)

C. Aelius Ericius

James Mathews wrote:

> You would be much better off calling Canadian Navy "limies" The effct
> is the same, instant dislike and pandemonium, but dealt with in a much
> baser attitude and action. <G> (-: (- (-:
>
> M. Minucius (Audens)
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Catholicism and Christianity
> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:41:10 -0800 (PST)
> From: "A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
> Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>
> From: "A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
>
> >
> > A. Iulia wrote:
> >
> > > From: "A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
> > >
> > > > Actually, Catholics are Christians. There are several sects of
> > > Catholicism
> > > > (Roman, Anglican,
> > >
> > > Actually Anglicans are Church of England - protestants.
> > > They just tend to be very high CofE so confusing them with Catholics
> > > is easy LOL
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Vartarius Quentius
> > > > www.livinghistory.org
> > >
> > > Noct'a
> >
> > Actaully Noct'a, I've known a number of Anglicans and Episcoplaians
> (the
> > Yank name for the same kirk) refer to themselves as Anglo-Catholics.
> As
> > differentiated from Roman-Catholics.
>
> LOL well in Brit, they'd not like to be referred to as Catholics!
>
>
> > Ericius
> > (who is married to a nominal one)
> >
> Noct'a
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.