| Subject: |
Man and the Sacred |
| From: |
Pythia kingan@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:15:24 +0000 |
|
I just found this great site and though you all might be interested!
<a href="http://www.enteract.com/~jwalz/Eliade/man.html" target="_top" >http://www.enteract.com/~jwalz/Eliade/man.html</a>
Best, Pythia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Saturnalia Presents |
| From: |
Pythia kingan@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:41:40 +0000 |
|
GODS!! What a handsome devil!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Name: Dec29_Cincinnatus in Toga.jpg
> Dec29_Cincinnatus in Toga.jpg Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg)
> Encoding: base64
|
| Subject: |
RELIGI--------..! |
| From: |
Pythia kingan@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:13:38 +0000 |
|
Announcing a new list for those who practice the Religio to discuss
issues of personal piety.
Best Pythia
|
| Subject: |
Mainz Gladius |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:18:42 -0500 (EST) |
|
The Mainz pattern Gladius had a blade 20" to 22' inches long by about
21/4 ' to 3' wide. It was slightly wasp-waisted and had a longer and
sharper point , and is named for the dig where the first one was found.
The newer "Pompeii" type had parallel edges and a short point, which was
2' wide by 16" to 22" long.
M. Minucius
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: FREE TOO ROAM! |
| From: |
dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy) |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:15:54 -0600 (CST) |
|
Good bye Michael Marconi who has been proven once again worthy of
being expelled forever from Nova Roma for his ignorance and intolerance.
May you find one day the wisdom and the maturity you most desperately
need in your dealings with other human beings and my sincere desire that
you find what you are looking for in life at noone else's expense.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: FREE TOO ROAM! |
| From: |
anaxarete@-------- (Reina C E) |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:58:34 -0600 |
|
Michael,
You are thumping that Bible kinda hard now, ease up and stop before you
hurt yourself or keep going until you thump yourself unconscious, either
one would be ok.
Reina
*Sorry I could not help myself. I know I shouldn't answer*
___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at <a href="http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html" target="_top" >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html</a>
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
|
| Subject: |
Re: Togae |
| From: |
m--------oon m--------oon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 02:10:09 -0500 |
|
Razenna wrote:
>
> Salve Flavia Claudia.
>
> Have you thought of making togae for persons willing to render
> remuneration?
> Just wondering. (Sure, he is!)
>
> Vale.
> C. Aelius Ericius
Cassi's is giving me fits. Not because the toga's so difficult -- it's
not -- but because the wool is so heavy that it's a nightmare to work
with. I'd certainly consider being the Offical NR Toga Seamstress if
you're not wanting heavy wool!
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: FREE TOO ROAM! |
| From: |
m--------oon m--------oon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 02:14:09 -0500 |
|
michael marconi wrote:
>
( A whole buncha fanatical rambling...)
Can you say "A**H***"? I KNEW that you could!
And honey...I certainly hope you make your living other than as a
writer.
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Togae |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 02:29:17 -0500 (EST) |
|
I should think tough that heavy wool hangs straighter and would not flip
around so readily in a breeze.
Questions:
-I assume a tunic is worn underneath the toga?
-Do directions come with the finished garment?
-Is the purple stripe sewn or dyed?
-Could a Tribune's stripe be expanded to senatorial size at a later
date? -How much would you charge to make a toga for someone my size
( 6ft.-Size 3X--approx.) Heavy and light wool.
Marcus Minucius Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: Togae |
| From: |
dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy) |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 01:33:48 -0600 (CST) |
|
There we are- a true part-time business opportunity. We need a toga
maker and I'm sure quite a few of us would be interested in buying.
Ready for several hundred future orders?
|
| Subject: |
Re: Aw, Mikey... |
| From: |
m--------oon m--------oon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 02:34:53 -0500 |
|
michael marconi wrote:
>
>
> Well, it appears that some of you 'Romans will receive your
> Christmas gift a little late. But, better late than never. So it seems
> that I am about to loose my citizenship!
And we can see what you DIDN'T get for xmas...a life and a spellchecker.
> pulling in its own way(s) till this micro-nation is twisted and
> distorted in such a manner that it becomes unrecognizable.
The key word here, campers, is "twisted," but "distorted" is pretty apt,
too.
> this madness most be stopped, nation suddenly explodes with a bang.
Talk about somebody who could USE a Big Bang...
> And amongst the countless chards
Chards? Like in cottage cheese?
> being guided by the hand of God and returning too the original
> Catholic Church-the "Tridentine Mass".
Is this where, instead of those crunchy wafers and a tasty beverage, you
just get a measly stick of Trident gum?
> You can pray too a tree, sacrifice a bull to Zeus or a virgin to the
> mighty something volcano god.
Oh no ya don't! Any virgins around here get co-opted into the Vestals!
> Enough is enough-stop the madness!
We did, honey. We exiled you.
You cannot continue onward in
> this spiraling dance of mundane nonsense of blasphemy and human
> depravity. You are destined too an eternity in hell-or whatever you
> wish to name it.
My choice for Hell? A romantic evening with YOU. Talk about depraved.
> And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of women, burned in
> their lust one toward another:
OOh! Can we get video of this? Talk about a fundraiser for the Treasury!
>
> O glorious artist formerly known as Prince of the heavenly host, Saint Michael the Jackson, and Madonna of the conical brassiere,
>
> which is the Bride of the Lamb without spot;
Spot is apparently the lamb-herding dog, who went off to find the Best
Man of the Sheep and the Bridesmaids of the Turkeys.
> they had laid profane hands upon her most sacred treasures.
Now THIS sounds just plain dirty. MIkey, you little pervert. I hope
you're going to confession about this.
Bye, bye.
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Aw, Mikey... |
| From: |
dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy) |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 01:45:26 -0600 (CST) |
|
Flavia Claudia- I have enjoyed and just love your sense of humor and
seeming quick-wittedness. Well said...
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Recreating the Republic |
| From: |
Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 06:38:54 -0500 |
|
Australicus wrote:
>> Thank you, Propraetor! It is a frequently repeated mis-statement that
>> Nova Roma is an organization to promote pagan religion. According to the
>> official statements and documents, Nova Roma is dedicated to reviving
>> Roman culture and religion -- not pagan religion in general, and there
is
>>nothing to say that anyone here has to practice even the Religio Romana
>> to be a citizen. I wish we could put that debate to rest. Everyone's
>> religion is supposed to be their own private business.
and Crystallina responded:
>Maybe, in that case, we should chuck all the Priesthoods. A private
religio
>has no business being so damn public.
Hear Hear! It's of the essence of the Religio Romana that it has a public
character, since all activities including politics (gods help us) have a
divine aspect. Citizens aren't required to be personal believers, but what
we are reconstructing is Rome BEFORE THE REMOVAL OF THE ALTAR OF VICTORY.
Merullus wrote:
>... But, you should not expect that you can without any repercussion join
the Church Choir,
>and, after practice, make a bunch of jokes about the other Christian
church down
>the road. Sooner or later, someone will overhear you, misunderstand you,
>and decide to fix your wagon, if you know what I mean and I think you
do...
I'm sorry, but much sharper jokes about the Pope are commonplace in
Protestant congregations. Indeed, way back when I was an Anglican the
(Evangelicals) at Sts Peter & Paul Tonbridge Anglican church used to tell
jokes about the (Anglo-Catholics) at King Charles the Martyr Anglican
church Tunbridge Wells, and I assume vice versa since I've heard plenty of
Anglo-Catholic jokes against Evangelicals. I haven't heard anyone accusing
the Christians of cannibalism which was the standard Roman pagan smear at
their expense ...
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
|
| Subject: |
Re: Togae |
| From: |
Asseri@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:05:59 EST |
|
In a message dated 12/30/98 2:12:24 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
m--------oon@-------- wr--------:
<< but because the wool is so heavy that it's a nightmare to work
with. >>
The romans were wonderful weavers of wool. Their were ableto do weaves that we
have trouble dulicating with modern means. Most weights were very thin like
modern cotton gauze or light cotton. For Togae I recommand the lightest weight
you can get. Not a coat weight but a dress weight like a crepe or thin even
weave. Now is the time to find it and as spring gts closer it will go on sale.
p.a. Olivia
(shivering in Indiana)
|
| Subject: |
Re: Recreating the Republic |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:35:19 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-29 18:35:24 EST, you write:
<< Thank you, Propraetor! It is a frequently repeated mis-statement that
Nova Roma is an organization to promote pagan religion. According to the
official statements and documents, Nova Roma is dedicated to reviving
Roman culture and religion -- not pagan religion in general, and there is
nothing to say that anyone here has to practice even the Religio Romana
to be a citizen. I wish we could put that debate to rest. Everyone's
religion is supposed to be their own private business. >>
Again you are confused. The official documents state that Nova Roma is
dedicated to reviving "Ancient Roman Religion, Culture, and Virtues". This
most certainly is the Pagan Religion of Ancient Rome. Perhaps you should read
the documents entitled "What We Mean By Pagan Reconstructionism" and "The
Declaration of Roman Paganism"
Like it or not...love it or leave it...Nova Roma IS A PAGAN ORGANIZATION! We
welcome all to join us in our love of Rome and our pursuit to re-establish the
PAGAN RELIGION OF ROME as a viable and respected institution.
Yes...your own private religion...be it Christianity, Judaism, Mithraism,
Wicca, Buddhism, Taoism, Native American Religion, Shintoism, Hinduism, Hare-
Krishna or whater....is your own private concern and no one here will deny you
otherwise. But the official State Religion of Nova Roma is the Religio
Romana...the PAGAN RELIGION OF ROME.
The debate is settled...this is a Pagan Organization. You are welcome to stay
and join us or depart as you see fit. This is not a cult...but we are not
merely a Classics Studies organization. We have a set purpose to restore the
Religio and if you can't justify that to your own private religion, then I
need to ask why are you here?
--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Recreating the Republic |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:38:36 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-29 18:35:24 EST, you write:
<< Seriously, it's time Nova Romans joined ranks and quit trying to splinter
the population between "pagans" and "those other people." >>
No one is splintering the population except those who continue to strive to
make Nova Roma something it's not. This is a Pagan Organization that welcomes
others of differing faiths.
Just like the National Organization of Women is a women's political
organization that is also open to men. But if you dare think that any man
there would try to bend the notion of the NOW to be a men's interest group,
you're just kidding yourself.
Stop the nonsense now! Accept NR for what it is!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Recreating the Republic |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:40:05 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-29 19:10:23 EST, you write:
<< Maybe, in that case, we should chuck all the Priesthoods. A private
religio
has no business being so damn public. >>
And in case anyone didn't get it...Crys was being sarcastic here!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Crys' Back Alley Club |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:41:01 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-29 19:25:16 EST, you write:
<< I guess you better sign me up for your Back Alley Group. I have a
response for Dex, his !@@!#$#%$^&%$#!! thick skin, and his little
playlet, and I sure as the Devil can't voice my response on this list!!
I just don't have the polite vocabulary for it!!
>>
Oh...I can't wait to hear that one!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: FREE TOO ROAM! |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:51:11 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-30 00:58:01 EST, you write:
<< Well, it appears that some of you 'Romans will receive your
Christmas gift a little late. But, better late than never. So it seems
that I am about to loose my citizenship! I had expected as much, but I
thought that it would of occur much sooner. The reason that I lost, or
am about too loose, my citizenship is for the simple fact that what I
had said tugged at your insecure little pagan hearts. I made you
realize, or at least made your think about, that being a pagan and
performing the various pagan rituals were not the right way to achieve
everlasting salvation. >> etc. etc. etc.
Blah Blah Blah...yeah...yeah...yeah...
You're outta here buddy! And Good Riddens! So you wanted to get the last
word in? Huh...Praise The Great Lord Deletus!
Now take that to your confessional!
--Dexippus
<<who didn't bother to read this stupid post>>
|
| Subject: |
Re: RELIGI--------..! |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:48:16 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-29 22:57:55 EST, you write:
<< Announcing a new list for those who practice the Religio to discuss
issues of personal piety. >>
Ok...put me on this list too!
However, I think I need to voice a concern over so many lists. We all are
gonna see our mailboxes filled up rather quickly with multiple posts on
diferent lists and more people responding to exponential posts.
Can we see about limiting the number of lists? or something?
--Dexippus
<<78 e-mails is just way too much>>
|
| Subject: |
Re: FREE TOO ROAM! |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:54:25 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-30 01:16:28 EST, you write:
<< Good bye Michael Marconi who has been proven once again worthy of
being expelled forever from Nova Roma for his ignorance and intolerance.
May you find one day the wisdom and the maturity you most desperately
need in your dealings with other human beings and my sincere desire that
you find what you are looking for in life at noone else's expense. >>
Here Here!
Someone mentioned to me that his last rant had a special little piece for
me...sorry, didn't read it...I was worshiping Deletus at that moment. But as
Michael Marconi has so insisted that I will be going to Hell, I'll be sure to
save him a seat by the fire!
--Dexippus
<<Roasting Marshmallows with Beelzebub as we type>>
|
| Subject: |
Re: FREE TOO ROAM! |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:01:14 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-30 01:55:25 EST, you write:
<< Michael,
You are thumping that Bible kinda hard now, ease up and stop before you
hurt yourself or keep going until you thump yourself unconscious, either
one would be ok.>>
Is this guy off the list yet? Let's not wait around any longer as it's
obvious he's a !@#*&$! A@@H0LE!
Raina...don't be afraid to speak up! : )
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
FREE TOO ROAM! |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:01:56 -0500 |
|
Salvete Patricia Cassia et alii
Since this person's fate has already been decided, can he not be removed
from the list somehow?
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Toga |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:36:19 -0500 |
|
Salvete Marce Minuci et alii
-----Original Message-----
From: James Mathe--------math669642reng@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 11:23 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Toga
------------------------------------------------------
I think you look quite distinguished. If I might ask where did you have
it made and is the purple border dyed sewn in place? Isit a fairly
expensive piece or fairly reasonable? When I saw the picture, I am sure
that I could do a school session in one with my scroll. It sould be
good for a half hour at least. Do you have directions for putting it on
and is the toga rectangular, square or round.
Very interesting and quite educational.
Marcus Minucius Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
------------------------------------------------------
I too would be interested in learning more about togae. Marcus Minucius
asks about the purple border; I wonder, could anyone explain the
hierarchical significance of different types of borders? Is it true that
one had to hold an imperium-wielding office before one could wear a
purple-bordered toga? How would a Consul's toga be altered to indicate
consular status?
I think that the bordering on togae is a really neat device that I hope is
implemented here in Nova Roma. I also wonder, has anyone thought about
bordering a stola similarly? Claudia, dont you need a purple-bordered toga
or stola yourself now that you are a senator?
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Recreating the Republic |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:28:07 -0500 |
|
Salvete Marce Muci et alii
>Merullus wrote:
>
>>... But, you should not expect that you can without any repercussion join
>the Church Choir,
>>and, after practice, make a bunch of jokes about the other Christian
>church down
>>the road. Sooner or later, someone will overhear you, misunderstand you,
>>and decide to fix your wagon, if you know what I mean and I think you
>do...
>
>I'm sorry, but much sharper jokes about the Pope are commonplace in
>Protestant congregations. Indeed, way back when I was an Anglican the
>(Evangelicals) at Sts Peter & Paul Tonbridge Anglican church used to tell
>jokes about the (Anglo-Catholics) at King Charles the Martyr Anglican
>church Tunbridge Wells, and I assume vice versa since I've heard plenty of
>Anglo-Catholic jokes against Evangelicals. I haven't heard anyone accusing
>the Christians of cannibalism which was the standard Roman pagan smear at
>their expense ...
>
>M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
>
I do not dispute that people everywhere make jokes at others' expense,
everywhere. Does the fact that Anglicans, Catholics and others do it mean
that Romans should do it too?
I would also like to point out again that, while jokes told in person are
easily recognized as such, jokes written in this type of forum may or may
not be so; remember that, when you are telling a joke to a few friends, you
can see their faces and make a good guess as to what their mood is and how
they'll receive your joke. Here in this forum, you do not really know who
is going to read your joke, nor how they'll take it.
Now, does the recipient not have some responsibility to absorb the messages
and maintain his/her behavior irregardless of their content? Of course
he/she does have it. It is my theory that Romanus did not know what to make
of what he was reading, except to call it blasphemy and evil; clearly, he
lost control of himself and went on a mad mission to save our souls via
plagiarized Catholic propaganda. I therefore believe that it was quite
appropriate to exile him. (It would have been better in my opinion to do it
after a trial, but that is another can of worms)
I am not eager, however, to see more such cases in the future, and I
honestly believe that the number and severity of such cases can be limited
if we are reasonably cautious about making jokes about others' gods and
religions.
That is why I have been posting so many more-heated-than-usual messages the
last couple of days. It is not because I am "PC" or anything like that (and
if you have read my posts, you probably know that -- I'll voice an opinion
if I think that it is important, whether or not people will like to hear
it). Some people have even accused me of having a sense of humor.
Anyway, I like Domitianus, do not want Nova Roma to become a boring place.
I look forward to the next joke too. I just hope that we can avoid posting
messages that dump a lot of crap on other people.
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Togae apologies! |
| From: |
missmoon missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:09:02 -0500 |
|
jane wrote:
>
>
> This is in fact quite heavy wool. I got it from a company in Maine that
> makes coats (and has a factory outlet where the wool is $4/yard). What
> Claudia is (bless her heart) making is a winter toga, suitable for a
> Proconsul whose province is in the Frozen North.
Yeah, and the wool is totally beautiful, too, especially the purple.
I'm just so embarrassed that it's taken me since last SUMMER to finish
it, but those of you coming to Concordia can see Cassi in all his wooly
glory.
BTW, I'm also embarrassed that my message about togae went out on the
list -- once again a late-night e-mail reveller hits the wrong REPLY
button. I gotta start going to bed earlier.
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Pat as list moderator |
| From: |
missmoon missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:37:19 -0500 |
|
To all Citizens--
Notice of intent to introduce legislation into the Senate,
by Flavia Claudia Juliana, Senator
Several Citizens have mentioned the need for this list to be moderated.
We HAVE a Moderator, our Quaestor, Patricia Cassia.
Now, Patricia has always been hesitant to boot anyone off the list
because she believes that Citizens should be allowed to speak their
minds, and she's right. I hate to think of the outcry that would spring
up if she just deleted any messages she didn't like. She has usually
sent discreet e-mail to the offender, telling him or her to cut it out
or she or she is outta here. I think this is a good approach,
considering that NR has no official policies on the technicalities of
handling this type of problem. Laws, yes -- procedures, no. It is one
thing to pass an elegant law meticulously researched from Roma Antiqua,
quite another to sully one's hands with the technical procedures of
actually enforcing that law.
But she has not been given Imperium (so to speak) to actually Moderate
the list AND the Message Board. She should be. Her qualifications to run
the List and the Website are impeccable: she's a professional Web
designer and has made the Nova Roma site much more easily navigable as
well as beautiful. There have been rumblings that the Site should be
removed from her guardianship, and this is something I will not tolerate
without hearing from the Citizens. She had computer troubles for a
while, but who doesn't? The site still functioned like a well-oiled
machine. She ahs put in many hours on this site.
The late unpleasantness from Marconi was suspiciously well-timed (over
the holidays, right after Patricia announced a problem with her monitor,
posted very late at night, etc.).
I plan to introduce legislation in the Senate to empower Patricia Cassia
to moderate the list and Website at her discretion, and would welcome
feedback from Citizens before I do.
--Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Deathh in the family |
| From: |
Amethystia Crystallina aicrys@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:41:57 -0800 (PST) |
|
This didn't go through before....one too many 'o's in nova
roma.....great flippin day i'm having, really
Salvete all,
I just found out that my favorite uncle died. He was diabetic and
obese and many other things, so his death was not a surprise, but at
the same time it was, if you know what I mean.
My mother and uncle (at least) will be going to New York to see about
arrangements.
I know this is off of the NR path anyway, whiich seems to be a big
deal these days, but I wanted to let people know. I'm pretty upset by
the news, yet trying not to let my upset show to Terry. It's not all
that easy. So I posted to my 2 main groups hoping for support. The
people in the branches of the NR tree should mostly be still on this
main list (although I have heard of peoplle considering unsubbing from
it -- myself included) and I hope that there might still be some
sympathy from the main.
I'm sorry if I sound snippy or bitter or whatever, I just .. well, I
guess grief brings out the worst in me.
If you can give support I would appreciate it. I am taking this
harder than I thought I would. The death was not unexpected, but ...
well, he WAS my favorite uncle and I will miss him.
Before I start crying....
Valete,
==
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Iunia Crystallina (10/13/68)
Prima Iunia Terrelina (3/31/97)
Lapis Stone (Due mid-Feb)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Deathh in the family |
| From: |
Razenna razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:45:39 -0800 |
|
My profound condolences, Crys. I always hate how lame that
sounds, but the language is lacking
C. Aelius Ericius
|
| Subject: |
For Crys |
| From: |
missmoon missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:52:51 -0500 |
|
I'm so sorry Crys.
But please take comfort in the fact that the god of death is depicted as
a beautiful one for a good reason. He's kind and considerate, and bears
us off to where there is no pain or worry, wrapped in the love of those
who wish us well.
As a believer in the gods of the Underworld, I hope that Charon bears
your uncle smoothly across the river, and that Great Dis and gentle
Proserpina offer him the sweet cup of Forgetfulness that takes away the
memory of the troubles of this world, and lead him to the Elysian Fields
to the happy afterlife he deserves.
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Fannius |
| From: |
missmoon missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:21:08 -0500 |
|
To all Citizens--
Notice of intent to introduce legislation into the Senate,
by Flavia Claudia Juliana, Senator
In the matter of
Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives:
It has been requested by some Citizens that I introduce the matter of
Fannius' alleged threat to Michael Marconi into the Senate. I am most
unhappy about doing so. But such things are the duties of Senators.
However, there is no point to having laws in NR if they are not
applicable to everyone. We have a law against threatening another
Citizen and Fannius broke that law. His apology and his understanding of
the equality of the law speak well for Fannius, as we all saw in his
post of his apology.
I want to make it clear that I have e-mailed Fannius about this matter,
and am awaiting his reply. I refuse to bring formal charges against a
Citizen until I have had private communication with him/her.
All Citizens should be aware that there are varying penalties allowable
under the law, and that I am NOT calling for his expulsion from Nova
Roma.
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: For Crys |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" amg@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:33:48 -0000 |
|
You have my sympathy Chris!
But remember that Nabarze Mithras saved mankind by spilling the blood of the
Bull. Remember Cupidus and Psyche... Your uncle must be right now in the
company of Mithras himself, traversing the spheres of the seven planets
towards the palace of the Olympian Gods in Heaven.
Vale!
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
|
| Subject: |
TO ALL CITIZENS.. |
| From: |
missmoon missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:47:49 -0500 |
|
When I asked you for feedback, I forgot to request that you please
respond by PRIVATE e-ma-------- m--------on@-------- Don't just h-------->
"reply' on the list.
This is to keep down the number of posts. However, I want to hear from
Citizens on any matter that concerns them.
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pat as list moderator |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:25:04 -0500 |
|
Salvete Flavia Claudia et alii
>From: m--------oon m--------oon@--------
>
>To all Citizens--
>Notice of intent to introduce legislation into the Senate,
>by Flavia Claudia Juliana, Senator
>
>
Yes, I agree. Patricia Cassia has been doing a great job and should be
given imperium to moderate as she sees fit.
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Togae |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:11:03 -0500 |
|
Salvete Omnes
><< but because the wool is so heavy that it's a nightmare to work
> with. >>
>The romans were wonderful weavers of wool. For Togae I recommand the
lightest >weight you can get. Not a coat weight but a dress weight like a
crepe or thin even
>weave. Now is the time to find it and as spring gets closer it will go on
sale.
>p.a. Olivia (shivering in Indiana)
This is how I was abe to afford to make my Toga and Tunics (buying during
spring sales). This is great advise I only wish I could have gotten lighter
fabrics than I did.
Valete, L Equitius
|
| Subject: |
Will anyone ever get a trial was Fannius |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:16:08 -0500 |
|
Salvete Claudia et alii
First of all, I want to say Thank You Claudia, I am so appreciative of your
taking the time to inform us of what you are doing in the Senate. There may
never be another crisis like the one of November 13, owing to your
"glasnost'"-like approach.
>From: m--------oon m--------oon@--------
>
>In the matter of
>Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives:
>
>It has been requested by some Citizens that I introduce the matter of
>Fannius' alleged threat to Michael Marconi into the Senate. I am most
>unhappy about doing so. But such things are the duties of Senators.
While I do not know any more about the relevant facts than anyone else, I am
forced to ask, will anyone in Nova Roma ever get a trial, or will everyone
accused be judged by the Senate? Claudia, this question is not aimed at you
in particular, heck, you just said that you did not want the Senate to act
on this matter; it is aimed at the collective 'you', but especially at all
Senators, sitting Praetores and Preaetores-elect Urbani.
>
>However, there is no point to having laws in NR if they are not
>applicable to everyone. We have a law against threatening another
>Citizen and Fannius broke that law. His apology and his understanding of
>the equality of the law speak well for Fannius, as we all saw in his
>post of his apology.
Yes. But again, moving away from what Fannius did or did not actually do or
say and looking at the process being applied: of what law is Fannius
accused of violating? I would like to have a look at it, so that I can
better understand why the Senate is acting on it.
>
>I want to make it clear that I have e-mailed Fannius about this matter,
>and am awaiting his reply. I refuse to bring formal charges against a
>Citizen until I have had private communication with him/her.
I dont understand why or how you would bring charges against him. Is this
not the duty of a Praetor Urbanus? Why did we bother having a campaign and
election for Praetores Urbani, from which a candidate withdrew, apologizing
profusely and no doubt troubled over the decision?
Citizens, am I the only one here who would prefer that we have a court and
trial process to deal with violations of the law?
In the case of Romanus, there were strident calls for urgent action; it
could be argued that there was a risk of some sort of splintering within our
ranks had someone not taken official action quickly. But this is a
different animal altogether. Noone, save Romanus, ever called urgently for
action against Fannius. Fannius is not Enemy of the Gods, Fannius is not
Enemy of the People. He might have violated a law; sounds like he perhaps
should be put on trial. But he should not be punished by the Senate without
an adversarial trial.
By the way, Scaevola, Praetor Urbanus elect, pointed out that the Senate's
action on Romanus would be juridically appropriate as long as there were
some sort of hearing, in which both sides of the story were presented to the
Senate, that is, something like prosecution vs. defense. Was that ever
done? Is such planned for Fannius, or is it going to be debated and voted
like any other consultum?
>
>All Citizens should be aware that there are varying penalties allowable
>under the law, and that I am NOT calling for his expulsion from Nova
>Roma.
Good. Because expelling citizens without trials is not the way to go.
>
>-- Flavia Claudia
>
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Deathh in the family |
| From: |
Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:29:32 -0500 |
|
Salve Crystallina!
You wrote that
>I just found out that my favorite uncle died.
>...I know this is off of the NR path anyway, whiich seems to be a big
>deal these days, but I wanted to let people know. <snip>The
>people in the branches of the NR tree should mostly be still on this
>main list (although I have heard of peoplle considering unsubbing from
>it -- myself included) and I hope that there might still be some
>sympathy from the main.
I want to express my condolences. Always hard to do, I know; but all I can
say is, you shouldn't beat yourself up for feeling grief for an uncle.
Grief is natural.
This is NOT repeat NOT "off the NR path". For myself, I was drawn to look
for somewhere where the old gods might be worshipped - and hence to NR -
after the death of my father last spring. Births and deaths are times when
we are most clearly in the hands of the Gods; when we "remember that we are
mortal". May the Gods support you and your family in your time of grief.
Vale,
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
|
| Subject: |
Re: Will anyone ever get a trial was Fannius |
| From: |
dean6886@--------) |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:43:57 -0600 (CST) |
|
Ah- here is perhaps even something more relevent. We may have laws
and a citizen can break the law and as was written can be removed,
expelled, booted out- whatever out of Nova Roma. Yet short of that I
don't see any other punishments written down as laws.
When a district attorney in the US sees a case before him from a
great multitude of cases they decide which ones they would like to
prosecute. Some or rather many cases are simply dropped for one reason
or another. Some are officially charged, then arrested and then put
under either a grand jury system in some states or given a pre-trial.
The reason here is for a determination of enough evidence to be brought
forth to warrant a full trial after someone has been officially charged.
Then at the trial a jury will decide guilt or innocence. If guilty
another hearing is scheduled for sentencing. Then there is always an
appeal process.
Now the point I would like to make is that we should not prosecute
Fannius since virtually everyone here can agree who is STILL a citizen
that he should not be stripped of his citizenship. We do not have the
mechanisms in place as yet that could allow for a trial and even if that
were so we don't have any laws on the books setting punishments for set
crimes except for the boot. I think we could all get by with just an
official admonishment from the senate regarding Fannius' action with it
noted that his apology was accepted on condition that something like
this never is brought before any magistrate again from him.
I am just stating that you cannot make and enforce a law after the
fact or make and enforce any given punishment after the fact. I think
what Nova Roma needs to do now is set up those legal mechanisms and work
on passing some very basic laws. Though we are not following US law and
custom we can modify it to fit our needs and in accordance with ancient
Roman law.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Death in the family |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:47:44 -0500 |
|
Salve Crystallina!
>
>You wrote that
>>I just found out that my favorite uncle died.
>
>>...I know this is off of the NR path anyway, whiich seems to be a big
>>deal these days, but I wanted to let people know.
>
>Grief is natural.
>
>This is NOT repeat NOT "off the NR path". Births and deaths are times when
>we are most clearly in the hands of the Gods; when we "remember that we are
>mortal". May the Gods support you and your family in your time of grief.
>Vale,M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
I wish you Peace in this time of mourning...
Vale, L Equitius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pat as list moderator |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:53:23 -0800 |
|
Whow..here...do Quaestors have the authority to have Imperium...maybe she
shoudl be appointed Curule Aedile..that way she does have Imperium...just a
thought..
Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Praetor Urbanis Elect
RMerullo wrote:
> From: "RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
>
> Salvete Flavia Claudia et alii
>
> >From: m--------oon m--------oon@--------
> >
> >To all Citizens--
> >Notice of intent to introduce legislation into the Senate,
> >by Flavia Claudia Juliana, Senator
> >
> >
> Yes, I agree. Patricia Cassia has been doing a great job and should be
> given imperium to moderate as she sees fit.
>
> Valete
>
> Gaius Marius Merullus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Will anyone ever get a trial was Fannius |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" amg@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 20:29:59 -0000 |
|
Salvete!
>I dont understand why or how you would bring charges against him. Is this
>not the duty of a Praetor Urbanus? Why did we bother having a campaign and
>election for Praetores Urbani, from which a candidate withdrew, apologizing
>profusely and no doubt troubled over the decision?
>
>Citizens, am I the only one here who would prefer that we have a court and
>trial process to deal with violations of the law?
I agree with Merullo.
Vale!
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
-----Original Message-----
From: RMerullo rmerullo@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 8:19 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Will anyone ever get a trial was Fannius
>From: "RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
>
>Salvete Claudia et alii
>
>First of all, I want to say Thank You Claudia, I am so appreciative of your
>taking the time to inform us of what you are doing in the Senate. There
may
>never be another crisis like the one of November 13, owing to your
>"glasnost'"-like approach.
>
>
>>From: m--------oon m--------oon@--------
>>
>>In the matter of
>>Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives:
>>
>>It has been requested by some Citizens that I introduce the matter of
>>Fannius' alleged threat to Michael Marconi into the Senate. I am most
>>unhappy about doing so. But such things are the duties of Senators.
>
>While I do not know any more about the relevant facts than anyone else, I
am
>forced to ask, will anyone in Nova Roma ever get a trial, or will everyone
>accused be judged by the Senate? Claudia, this question is not aimed at
you
>in particular, heck, you just said that you did not want the Senate to act
>on this matter; it is aimed at the collective 'you', but especially at all
>Senators, sitting Praetores and Preaetores-elect Urbani.
>>
>>However, there is no point to having laws in NR if they are not
>>applicable to everyone. We have a law against threatening another
>>Citizen and Fannius broke that law. His apology and his understanding of
>>the equality of the law speak well for Fannius, as we all saw in his
>>post of his apology.
>
>Yes. But again, moving away from what Fannius did or did not actually do
or
>say and looking at the process being applied: of what law is Fannius
>accused of violating? I would like to have a look at it, so that I can
>better understand why the Senate is acting on it.
>>
>>I want to make it clear that I have e-mailed Fannius about this matter,
>>and am awaiting his reply. I refuse to bring formal charges against a
>>Citizen until I have had private communication with him/her.
>
>I dont understand why or how you would bring charges against him. Is this
>not the duty of a Praetor Urbanus? Why did we bother having a campaign and
>election for Praetores Urbani, from which a candidate withdrew, apologizing
>profusely and no doubt troubled over the decision?
>
>Citizens, am I the only one here who would prefer that we have a court and
>trial process to deal with violations of the law?
>
>In the case of Romanus, there were strident calls for urgent action; it
>could be argued that there was a risk of some sort of splintering within
our
>ranks had someone not taken official action quickly. But this is a
>different animal altogether. Noone, save Romanus, ever called urgently for
>action against Fannius. Fannius is not Enemy of the Gods, Fannius is not
>Enemy of the People. He might have violated a law; sounds like he perhaps
>should be put on trial. But he should not be punished by the Senate
without
>an adversarial trial.
>
>By the way, Scaevola, Praetor Urbanus elect, pointed out that the Senate's
>action on Romanus would be juridically appropriate as long as there were
>some sort of hearing, in which both sides of the story were presented to
the
>Senate, that is, something like prosecution vs. defense. Was that ever
>done? Is such planned for Fannius, or is it going to be debated and voted
>like any other consultum?
>>
>>All Citizens should be aware that there are varying penalties allowable
>>under the law, and that I am NOT calling for his expulsion from Nova
>>Roma.
>
>Good. Because expelling citizens without trials is not the way to go.
>>
>>-- Flavia Claudia
>>
>Valete
>
>Gaius Marius Merullus
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Will anyone ever get a trial was Fannius |
| From: |
Razenna razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:55:53 -0800 |
|
Salvete.
Dean Troy wrote:
Though we are not following US law and
custom we can modify it to fit our needs and in accordance with ancient
Roman law.
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
We have no need to modify US law for this purpose. Unless he has emigrated
we have a citizen in Brittania who is a student of Roman Law. One of his
interests on joining Nova Roma was to combine his interest in Roman Law with
his interest in Nova Roma.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Who will defend Fannius? |
| From: |
SFP55@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:13:02 EST |
|
In a message dated 12/30/98 12:44:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dean6886@-------- --------es:
<< I am just stating that you cannot make and enforce a law after the
fact or make and enforce any given punishment after the fact. I think
what Nova Roma needs to do now is set up those legal mechanisms and work
on passing some very basic laws. Though we are not following US law and
custom we can modify it to fit our needs and in accordance with ancient
Roman law.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus >>
Salvete. As soon as the Praetor Urbanus takes office he should began looking
into bringing charges against the citizen accused. As much as I agree with
what other citizens said, I feel we (Rome) must prosicute. I dislike the word
"make an example of" but in this case we must. If we don't, this will come
back to haunt us.
Now, who will defend Fannius? Does Fannius have a defense? There is nothing
alleged here, we have his comments in writing. Who among you lawyers that are
members of NR will undertake his defense?
As for the trial, it could be held in the chatroom. Both sides tell their
story, and have the Consuls and sitting Senate decide.
Valete
Q Fabius Maximus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pat as list moderator |
| From: |
SFP55@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:26:12 EST |
|
In a message dated 12/30/98 12:53:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
al--------us@-------- writ--------br>
<< Whow..here...do Quaestors have the authority to have Imperium...maybe she
should be appointed Curule Aedile..that way she does have Imperium...just a
thought.. >>
Salvete!
I agree with the distinguished Praetor elect, giving such power to an is
setting a dangerous
precedent, give her an office, perhaps an ad hoc appointment as a Curialis or
Decurio.
Vale
Q Fabius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Will anyone ever get a trial was Fannius |
| From: |
JoeBloch@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:28:39 EST |
|
Salvete Omnes!
I, for one, would absolutely LOVE to see the Leges Nova Romae (civil law of
Nova Roma-- I think-- my Latin ain't what it should be) in place. Indeed, our
current Praetors Urbanii were supposed to be researching such things... I know
we have a number of Citizens who either practice, are studying, or are
interested in Law.
I would urge the incoming Consuls to make the development of a civil law
system one of their priorities in the coming year. While the Senate acted
swiftly and legally this time, not every transgression can be brought before
the Senate, and not every transgressor needs to be expelled. The power of the
Senate in such cases, while drastic, is fairly limited in its options.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Co-Founder, Senator, all around nice guy
|
| Subject: |
Re: Who will defend Fannius? |
| From: |
dean6886@--------) |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:29:36 -0600 (CST) |
|
And then the question remains- what punishment short of expulsion
could there be? I don't believe we- Nova Roma have any laws on our books
regarding this matter. You cannot put a judgement on someone with a set
penalty without some sort of a law in place already. Ancient Rome had
their laws set and in place already- we Nova Roma don't. Unless you wish
to put him on trial for the set purpose of having him stripped of
citizenship and expelled I don't believe anything else can legally come
of it except an official admonishment. Also at this point who's
responsibility is it then to demand a criminal trial legally? The
Praetor Urbanus? The Senate? Any citizen?
Can someone have a fair trial in a chatroom especially since no real
procedures have been mandated within Nova Roma law? I believe at this
point any spur of the moment slopped together trial would not be in the
interest of justice and would end up more entertainment for some to see
how the process goes along in an arbitrary form of self-righteousness
without the necessary laws passed and procedures mandated by written law
within Nova Roma. A judge must follow in every court the letter of the
law to able to fulfill his/her duties properly. A decision cannot be
made arbitrarily in any trial.
Now if the Senate wishes to also expel Fannius at this point that is
a different matter.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Will anyone ever get a trial was Fannius |
| From: |
missmoon missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:37:12 -0500 |
|
Dean Troy wrote:
>
> Now the point I would like to make is that we should not prosecute
> Fannius since virtually everyone here can agree who is STILL a citizen
> that he should not be stripped of his citizenship.
NO ONE is even suggesting that he be stripped of his Citizenship! This
strikes me as far too harsh.
If you read my post again, you'll see that I was careful not to say
that. Please don't put words in my mouth - I have enough of 'em myself!
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Who will defend Fannius? |
| From: |
missmoon missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:47:59 -0500 |
|
SFP55@-------- wrote:
>
>
>
> In a message dated 12/30/98 12:44:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> dean6886@-------- --------es:
>
> << I am just stating that you cannot make and enforce a law after the
> fact or make and enforce any given punishment after the fact. I think
> what Nova Roma needs to do now is set up those legal mechanisms and work
> on passing some very basic laws.
We certainly do need to do that. The old term "Rome wasn't built in a
day" has never applied more than here in NR. It's just going to take
time and we have to improvise interim solutions. For instance, at the
moment we have no Praetor Urbanis, which is probably why the citizens
made the request of me.
> Salvete. As soon as the Praetor Urbanus takes office he should began looking
> into bringing charges against the citizen accused.
Well, this would certainly take ME off the hook! Actually, there is no
reason to rush into this. I was responding to a request from Citizens:
I'd like you all to know that this matter has not been overlooked, but
is being considered.
As much as I agree with
> what other citizens said, I feel we (Rome) must prosicute. I dislike the word
> "make an example of" but in this case we must. If we don't, this will come
> back to haunt us.
Unfortunately, this is true. Frankly, I don't see many people who were
all that offended by Fannius' post. At least, they haven't said so to
me. They were shocked, but not that offended, especially in light of
what he was responding to.
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Recreating the Republic |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:18:59 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-30 12:40:03 EST, you write:
<< I would also like to point out again that, while jokes told in person are
easily recognized as such, jokes written in this type of forum may or may
not be so; remember that, when you are telling a joke to a few friends, you
can see their faces and make a good guess as to what their mood is and how
they'll receive your joke. Here in this forum, you do not really know who
is going to read your joke, nor how they'll take it.
>>
That is why we have emoticons
: ) : ( : P~~~ : 0 etc.
And there is always LOL...ROFLMAO....and others
And there is too a general understanding that poking fun comes no where near
the extent of attacks that one "M" had implored.
Let us remember our virtue of Comitas!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pat as list moderator |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:24:46 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-30 13:39:27 EST, you write:
<< I plan to introduce legislation in the Senate to empower Patricia Cassia
to moderate the list and Website at her discretion, and would welcome
feedback from Citizens before I do. >>
Can you define "moderate"? I'm hesitant to lend support to anything that
would apply censorship.
Patricia Cassia is one of a fair mind, but I don't believe in censorship
regardless of who may be moderating.
And who said she should be removed from managing the website? If it wasn't
for Patricia, that site would have been history with Germanicus' "departure".
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Will anyone ever get a trial |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:29:55 -0500 |
|
-Salvete, Quirites
I would like to make a few statments.
>
>I, for one, would absolutely LOVE to see the Leges Nova Romae (civil law of
>Nova Roma-- I think-- my Latin ain't what it should be) in place. Indeed,
our
>current Praetors Urbanii were supposed to be researching such things...
So far none has asked me anything as Praetor Urbanus. (And yes I am still
Praetor Urbanus as is Decius Iunius Palladius until the first if January
when we will then be Consules) I have, however often posted answers to the
list when questions were posed or when matters needed clarification.
>I know we have a number of Citizens who either practice, are studying, or
are
>interested in Law.
>
>I would urge the incoming Consuls to make the development of a civil law
>system one of their priorities in the coming year.
Actually, my first concern is the development and Posting of the various
Tribes and Centuries so that things CAN be voted on Constitutionally. I have
been pushing for this since Before I proposed a vote for the establishment
of English and/or ( a phrase that is used in our constitution now ) Latin as
the languages of official business.
>While the Senate acted
>swiftly and legally this time, not every transgression can be brought
before
>the Senate, and not every transgressor needs to be expelled. The power of
the
>Senate in such cases, while drastic, is fairly limited in its options.
>Valete,Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>Salvete. As soon as the Praetor Urbanus takes office he should began
looking
>into bringing charges against the citizen accused.
Praetores are not the police, if a citizen has a complaint bring it to to us
as such.
Make a formal charge. We then may make a summerary finding or appoint a
judge who would appoint a prosecutor and hear the trial.
> As much as I agree with what other citizens said, I feel we (Rome) must
prosicute. >I dislike the word "make an example of" but in this case we
must. If we don't, this >will come back to haunt us. Now, who will defend
Fannius?
That is up to Fannius.
> Does Fannius have a defense? There is nothing alleged here, we have his
>comments in writing. Who among you lawyers that are members of NR will
>undertake his defense?
I'll leave this alone.
>As for the trial, it could be held in the chatroom. Both sides tell their
>story, and have the Consuls and sitting Senate decide.
>Valete, Q Fabius Maximus
In this particular case I would recuse myself because I, as Flamen
Martialis, declared "the outcast" Sacer.
Valete, L Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus 'til Friday :-)
|
| Subject: |
Re: TO ALL CITIZENS.. |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:27:55 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-30 14:50:09 EST, you write:
<< When I asked you for feedback, I forgot to request that you please
respond by PRIVATE e-ma-------- m--------on@-------- Don't just h-------->
"reply' on the list. >>
Oops...well...you (and everyone) now has my feedback.
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Will anyone ever get a trial was Fannius |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:30:37 EST |
|
In a message dated 98-12-30 15:19:53 EST, you write:
<< Fannius is not Enemy of the Gods, Fannius is not
Enemy of the People. He might have violated a law; sounds like he perhaps
should be put on trial. But he should not be punished by the Senate without
an adversarial trial. >>
Merullus,
I think that is why Flavia Claudia has announced that some action will be
taken but not without due consideration.
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Who will defend Fannius? |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:06:03 -0500 |
|
Salvete Fabi et alii
>From: SFP55@--------
>
>Salvete. As soon as the Praetor Urbanus takes office he should began
looking
>into bringing charges against the citizen accused.
I agree, to the extent that, if anyone is to do this, it should be a Praetor
Urbanus.
As much as I agree with
>what other citizens said, I feel we (Rome) must prosicute. I dislike the
word
>"make an example of" but in this case we must. If we don't, this will come
>back to haunt us.
>Now, who will defend Fannius? Does Fannius have a defense?
He can have a defense, even though his post is there for all to see
(actually, I do not have his post somehow). In order for him to be punished
for violating a law, certain conditions need to be met if Nova Roma is to
thrive as a Republic:
1. There must be a specific law that can be shown to have been broken,
2. It must be argued to the satisfaction of a jury (or at least a judge)
that the accused's actions actually violated that specific law.
There is nothing
>alleged here, we have his comments in writing.
"We" may have his writing, but "we" are not judges, or even a competent
jury. We are a mob. We can (as I do and shall) express opinion 'til the
cows come home, but pass judgement? We cannot.
Who among you lawyers that are
>members of NR will undertake his defense?
Well, the only NR lawyers of which I know are our Praetores Urbani elect.
Would it be appropriate for one of them to act as defense?
>As for the trial, it could be held in the chatroom. Both sides tell their
>story, and have the Consuls and sitting Senate decide.
It could be done that way, and I think that it would be fairer than just
having the Senate debate it then vote on it, but, I think that a Praetor's
court may be an even more appropriate venue. No such thing exists yet, but,
there is no reason that Fannius has to be tried and punished within the next
two days, is there?
>
>Valete
>Q Fabius Maximus
>
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Leges Novae Romae was Re: Will anyone ever get a trial was Fannius |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:39:37 -0500 |
|
Salvete Flavi Vedi et alii
>From: JoeBloch@--------
>
>
>I, for one, would absolutely LOVE to see the Leges Nova Romae (civil law of
>Nova Roma-- I think-- my Latin ain't what it should be) in place.
It doesnt matter whether your Latin is or isnt what it should be, Esteemed
Co-Founder, because you guys wrote it thus! The term is Leges Novae Romae,
and please, do not change it anytime soon! Let me finish this translation
first!
Indeed, our
>current Praetors Urbanii were supposed to be researching such things... I
know
>we have a number of Citizens who either practice, are studying, or are
>interested in Law.
I only know of two, the soon-to-be Praetores Urbani Scaevola et Sulla.
>
>I would urge the incoming Consuls to make the development of a civil law
>system one of their priorities in the coming year. While the Senate acted
>swiftly and legally this time, not every transgression can be brought
before
>the Senate, and not every transgressor needs to be expelled. The power of
the
>Senate in such cases, while drastic, is fairly limited in its options.
Me too.
>
>Valete,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>Co-Founder, Senator, all around nice guy
>
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
----
|
| Subject: |
Re: Who will defend Fannius? |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:30:39 -0500 |
|
Salvete Caie Druse et alii
From: dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)
You said-
And then the question remains- what punishment short of expulsion
could there be? I don't believe we- Nova Roma have any laws on our books
regarding this matter. You cannot put a judgement on someone with a set
penalty without some sort of a law in place already. Ancient Rome had
their laws set and in place already- we Nova Roma don't.
I say-
I dont think that this is entirely true. Roman law was mostly precedent law
(right, Sulla, Scaevola, anyone else?); a magistrate decided if there was
enough evidence to hold a trial, based on precedent, right? And about laws,
well, we have one package of law so far - the Constitution (Roma Antiqua
lacked a written constitution by the way). Someone already cited a
provision that he/she believed Fannius to have violated. I think that Roman
law was much less written in stone (despite the twelve tables) than you seem
to think. I may be wrong and welcome elucidation.
People, if we are waiting for a comprehensive legal code to exist before we
allow adversarial trials, we aint never gonna get no adversarial trials.
Accused people will be booted (like barbarians) by the Senate or exonerated
(let go free) by them, and anyone who is accused of breaking the law (which
will probably, then, continue to consist only of the Constitution) will face
the Senate of Nova Roma -- not a jury of their peers. (not that juries in
Roma Antiqua were always 'peers' -- didn't Sulla institute all-senator
juries for criminal trials?)
You said-
Unless you wish
to put him on trial for the set purpose of having him stripped of
citizenship and expelled I don't believe anything else can legally come
of it except an official admonishment. Also at this point who's
responsibility is it then to demand a criminal trial legally? The
Praetor Urbanus? The Senate? Any citizen?
I say-
I think that this is part of the duties of the Praetor Urbanus office. I do
not believe that it is the Senate's responsibility.
You say-
Can someone have a fair trial in a chatroom especially since no real
procedures have been mandated within Nova Roma law?
I say-
Maybe not. But it is probably preferable to having the Senate deal with it
with no trial whatsoever.
You say-
I believe at this
point any spur of the moment slopped together trial would not be in the
interest of justice and would end up more entertainment for some to see
how the process goes along in an arbitrary form of self-righteousness
without the necessary laws passed and procedures mandated by written law
within Nova Roma. A judge must follow in every court the letter of the
law to able to fulfill his/her duties properly. A decision cannot be
made arbitrarily in any trial.
Now if the Senate wishes to also expel Fannius at this point that is
a different matter.
I say-
Yes that is true. Let us be the impetus for the creation of Nova Roma's
first court, and a lex. Perhaps a Praetor Urbanus could hold a hearing,
after which he would notify Fannius either that he is warned and not to face
charges for this offense, or, that he will be tried at some future date. In
the interim, the praetores could work on both the court and the law. And
the comitiae could be made functional.
So far I have heard a lot of statements to the effect that I am rushing,
but, I believe that if there is no impetus to undertake these things, they
will not happen at all. This case provides such an impetus, doesnt it?
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Thanks and 3 or 4 month address |
| From: |
"A. I. Crystallina" aicrys@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:37:12 -0600 |
|
I would like to thank everyone who replied publically and privately to me about my uncle. It's been a rough day and some sunshine found it's way to me.
I have finally gotten this address mess sorted out. I have forwarded all the mail from either AOL or Yahoo to this address. As soon as the weather breaks a bit (it was 5 above today) I will go pay a second and maybe a third month on this email account. I have plans to move to Texas, but it is unlikely this will happen before mid-March or April. I don't know why I didn't just configure this box before ...then I wasn't thinking too well before.
Again, thanks for the ears (or eyes)and the smiles. I really needed them. I guess there is hope for you guys after all <G>.
Crys (tired)
|
| Subject: |
No prateor urbanus? was Who will defend Fannius? |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:55:37 -0500 |
|
Salvete Claudia et alii
>From: m--------oon m--------oon@--------
>
For instance, at the
>moment we have no Praetor Urbanis, which is probably why the citizens
>made the request of me.
I thought that we had two - Decius Iunius Palladius and Lucius Equitius
Cincinnatus. I thought that magistrates' terms coincided with calendar
years.
>
>
>
>-- Flavia Claudia
>
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: NOVA ROMA LAW |
| From: |
dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy) |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:07:30 -0600 (CST) |
|
Well, obviously we're not going to be trying murder and rape cases
here and we don't need a comprehensive legal code but I think we can
have a fair court system put into place and a reasonably good system
instituted that could handle any potential problems that come up. Short
of ever expelling a citizen there can be other measures implemented
including community service and even fining as is also done in some
cases within unions. A fine does not have to be excessive either and of
course a citizen possibly could have the option between community
service and paying a fine. A little more than an official reprimand and
far short of expulsion, I believe this could be an effective means of
controlling any future problems and yet further enhancing and endorsing
Nova Roma in the process.
Anyone else like to see laws in the future passed to that effect?
Just a passing thought.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Who will defend Fannius? |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:13:26 EST |
|
Salve Gaius Marius Merullus
We are in agreement. I have spoken with L. Cornelius, Praetor Urbanus elect,
and we need this to happen, not as a role playing drama like some citizens
have suggested, but proof that our little micro-nation has the ability to
handle these problems. Once we can do this, I think outbursts like Fannius'
will become a thing of the past. You are correct. I do not want a rush to
judgment, nor do I wish this handled today. But we have set the machinery in
motion, and that is good enough for me. Without Law, what is a civilization?
Citizens must learn to respect our laws, otherwise chaos will reign. As we
have all seen happen on this list.
Salve
Q. Fabius
|
| Subject: |
Toga! |
| From: |
Magnus Ingmarsson emperor@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:58:28 +0100 |
|
Caissa Wrote:
> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 10:28:41 -0000
> From: -------- p--------@--------
>Subject: Togae and wool
>
> >Cassi's is giving me fits. Not because the toga's so difficult -- it's
> >not -- but because the wool is so heavy that it's a nightmare to work
> >with. I'd certainly consider being the Offical NR Toga Seamstress if
> >you're not wanting heavy wool!
> This is in fact quite heavy wool. I got it from a company in Maine that
> makes coats (and has a factory outlet where the wool is $4/yard). What
> Claudia is (bless her heart) making is a winter toga, suitable for a
> Proconsul whose province is in the Frozen North.
That Proconslul would be me! :-D
> Patricia Cassia
Magnus Hadrianus, who wishes you all a wonderful new year with the launch of
the new sestertie (the EURO). :-)
|
| Subject: |
Re: NOVA ROMA LAW |
| From: |
"A. I. Crystallina" aicrys@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:08:10 -0600 |
|
From: dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)
Short
of ever expelling a citizen there can be other measures implemented
including community service and even fining as is also done in some
cases within unions.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
What about something like suspending him from the list (as he allegedly has a problem holding his temper on it) or something like that. Does he have asprations to office? Ban him from runnng for any office for, say 2 or 3 years.
The punishment has to be a learning expirence for the punishee (is that a word?). Ban me from running for office and I will not care,I don't aspire to it. Suspend me from the email list I abused for some period (I don't know...maybe a day per letter and capital letters are 2 days or something) and that would bother me.
You start ousting people for opening their mouths in (what I percieve as) self-defense and no one will open their mouths. There would be less email, sure, but hardly worth it, eh? And people remember. You oust someone the people think defended himself and come next election you may find yourself a plain ol civie and holding no office.
What do I know? Just an opinion.
|
| Subject: |
Why Try Fannius? |
| From: |
KWTY11A@-------- (MR GLENN K WEY) |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 20:46:04, -0500 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
Since our noble Senator Flavia Claudia Juliana has been placed in
the position of introducing a motion to try Lucius Fannius Agelastus
Dives for an alleged threat to the now exiled traitor Lucius Marconis
Romanus, I offer her my sincere sympathy in this unpleasant
undertaking.
However, considering that Fannius was responding to the action of
a now adjudged and exiled party; I for one would ask that the Senate
simply table this matter. When a citizen moves to defend one of the
two pillars of this community (Religio Romana and Via Romana) against
an openly illegal and direct assault on our Constitution, is it right
and just to then turn on a patriot?
If a law was infringed upon in his zeal to defend the Republic, is
not his open apology to the community sufficient in and of itself?
For those who say a trial must be held so that the rule of law is
to be maintained; I would ask how far are you willing to take this?
Are you willing to see exiled someone whose action were a response to
an attack on the Republic?
Is this really a trial which is being done to uphold the law, or
is it, as some including myself, are beginning to feel an action
which
certain elements of this community are seeking a tit-for-tat
reprisals?
Therefore I ask those responsible for bringing this matter to a
resolution that if you must introduce a motion to try Lucius Fannius
for his alleged threat to LuciusMarconis Romanus, that the a motion
to table sine die these charges be immediately introduced.
To all in this community I ask that we let this matter rest while
the forms of legality be observed. This will, I believe, better
serve the interests of all than continuing down this road of growing
suspicion. I would hope that both Christian and Pagans can learn
from these events and that we can avoid future ones by acting swiftly
as the Senate has done in clear and open cases and each of us
individually make an attempt to understand each others beliefs and
concerns.
I remain Respectfully your fellow Citizen,
Marcus Terentius Varro
|
| Subject: |
Re: Why Try Fannius? |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:16:39 EST |
|
Salve Marcus Terentius Varro
You have written:
>>If a law was infringed upon in his zeal to defend the Republic, is
not his open apology to the community sufficient in and of itself?<<
Threatening to hunt down and burn a citizen and his followers is a bit extreme
would you not think, dear Varro? Remember at the time, Marconi was still a
citizen.
>>For those who say a trial must be held so that the rule of law is
to be maintained; I would ask how far are you willing to take this?
Are you willing to see exiled someone whose action were a response to
an attack on the Republic?<<
I wouldn't say total exile is to be the punishment. Perhaps a lessening of
privileges?
>>Is this really a trial which is being done to uphold the law, or is it, as
some including myself, are beginning to feel an action which certain elements
of this community are seeking a tit-for-tat reprisals?<<
Now you are being plain silly. Are you saying that the Christian coalition is
behind
the request for justice? Not at all. But Roman law must be just and
impartial.
>>Therefore I ask those responsible for bringing this matter to a resolution
that if you must introduce a motion to try Lucius Fannius for his alleged
threat to Lucius Marconis Romanus, that the a motion to table sine die these
charges be immediately introduced.<<
And what happens the next time? And the next? Ponder on this.
Vale
Q Fabius
To all in this community I ask that we let this matter rest while
the forms of legality be observed. This will, I believe, better
serve the interests of all than continuing down this road of growing
suspicion. I would hope that both Christian and Pagans can learn
from these events and that we can avoid future ones by acting swiftly
as the Senate has done in clear and open cases and each of us
individually make an attempt to understand each others beliefs and
concerns.
I remain Respectfully your fellow Citizen,
>>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pictures |
| From: |
Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:27:24 -0800 (PST) |
|
Ave!
I just became a citizen today.
Magnus Hadrianus has an excellent idea. I do not see a list of links to
citizens' sites on the Nova Roma site. I suggest that such a list be added
to the Forum Romanum page. Additionally, If there are four such sites, then
together with the Nova Roma site, we could form our own web ring. Having
our own web ring would increase our visibility on the Web. I have just
completed the Temple of Mars web site
<a href="http://www.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/myth/mars/marsfrm" target="_top" >http://www.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/myth/mars/marsfrm</a>
.htm>. That puts us 40% of the way toward forming a web ring. Surely we
have at least three other sites, citizens!
Two existing web rings may be of interest to citizens:
Cives Romani <<a href="http://logomancy.simplenet.com/domus/ring.html" target="_top" >http://logomancy.simplenet.com/domus/ring.html</a>>
Roman Ring <<a href="http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-23983/romanring/start.html" target="_top" >http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-23983/romanring/start.html</a>>
A third ring is devoted to classical Greco-Roman culture:
The Delphic Oracle <<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7969" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7969</a>>
Vale!
M. Mala Gangalius
At 12:55 AM 12/31/98 +0100, Magnus Ingmarsson wrote:
>From: Magnus Ingmarsson emperor@--------
>
>Ave!
>
>Since I subscribe to the digest version of the list I miss out on al the
>nice attachments.
>
>I would like to share the experience of a certain citizen in a Toga and
>therefor I have the following suggestion:
>
>Why don't we link the homepages (or pages suitable for our romanselves) of
>the citizens who feel this is a good idea to the Nova Roma site?
>
>If there already is such a place I humbly ask for directions to get there.
>
>Vale!
>Magnus Hadrianus
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>
>
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
gangale@--------
Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>
The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>
The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>
The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>
World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Who will defend Fannius? |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:46:10 EST |
|
>From: dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)
>
> And then the question remains- what punishment short of expulsion
>could there be? I don't believe we- Nova Roma have any laws on our books
>regarding this matter. You cannot put a judgement on someone with a set
>penalty without some sort of a law in place already. Ancient Rome had
>their laws set and in place already- we Nova Roma don't. Unless you wish
>to put him on trial for the set purpose of having him stripped of
>citizenship and expelled I don't believe anything else can legally come
>of it except an official admonishment. Also at this point who's
>responsibility is it then to demand a criminal trial legally? The
Salve!
Offering only my humble (ha!) opinion, I think the chatroom would be an
awful venue for a trial. I would think it would have to be here, with
presentation of the charge, the evidence, the defense, followed by the
votes of those appointed as jurors, or something along those lines.
Everybody else would have to keep off the list until it was concluded. Or
maybe we could start a new, temporary list for a trial? It shouldn't be
happening all the time (I hope).
It's too awkward to hold any meaningful discourse in the chatroom.
L. Sergius Aust.
>Praetor Urbanus? The Senate? Any citizen?
> Can someone have a fair trial in a chatroom especially since no real
>procedures have been mandated within Nova Roma law? I believe at this
>point any spur of the moment slopped together trial would not be in the
>interest of justice and would end up more entertainment for some to see
>how the process goes along in an arbitrary form of self-righteousness
>without the necessary laws passed and procedures mandated by written law
>within Nova Roma. A judge must follow in every court the letter of the
>law to able to fulfill his/her duties properly. A decision cannot be
>made arbitrarily in any trial.
> Now if the Senate wishes to also expel Fannius at this point that is
>a different matter.
>
>
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Recreating the Republic |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:45:58 EST |
|
Again, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus, you try to pick a fight with me by
pretending that the founding documents say something other than what they
plainly say.
I know (from some of your posts) that you are bright and capable enough
that you can't be misreading them.
I also know (from some of your posts) that you and I have very similar
ideas about religion and divinity. So I have to conclude that you
continue to argue about this because you don't like me. Fine. By now, I
don't much like you either.
I've been making an effort to nicely ignore your remarks, but the effort
is tiring. So in the future I shall simply ignore your posts. I find it
amusing that you disagree with me and then you affirm what I said. But
your basic premise is so transparently inaccurate that it cannot stand
unanswered. Obviously YOU WISH for this to be a "pagan organization" but
that is not what the founding documents say it is. This is a ROMAN
organization, intended to revive ROMAN culture, ROMAN virtues, and ROMAN
religion. It is not intended to promote Wicca, Judaism, Hellenism,
Asatru, Hinduism, Buddhism, Hare Krishna, Moonieism, etc., etc.. Yes,
Nova Roma is dedicated to the restoration of _a_ "pagan" religion" -- the
Religio Romana, but it is not dedicated to "pagan religion." Get it
right! (Or not -- whatever -- I know longer care what you do with it.)
I have no problem with any of those other paths, or with anyone who likes
to call their own path "pagan," and many of the people here who privately
follow these paths are clearly fine folks whom I am happy to be
associated with. Only YOU seem to insist on continuing to quarrel this
way.
>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In a message dated 98-12-29 18:35:24 EST, you write:
>
>><< Thank you, Propraetor! It is a frequently repeated mis-statement that
>> Nova Roma is an organization to promote pagan religion. According to the
>> official statements and documents, Nova Roma is dedicated to reviving
>> Roman culture and religion -- not pagan religion in general, and there is
>> nothing to say that anyone here has to practice even the Religio Romana
>> to be a citizen. I wish we could put that debate to rest. Everyone's
>> religion is supposed to be their own private business. >>
>
>Again you are confused. The official documents state that Nova Roma is
>dedicated to reviving "Ancient Roman Religion, Culture, and Virtues". This
>most certainly is the Pagan Religion of Ancient Rome. Perhaps you should
>read
>the documents entitled "What We Mean By Pagan Reconstructionism" and "The
>Declaration of Roman Paganism"
>
>Like it or not...love it or leave it...Nova Roma IS A PAGAN ORGANIZATION!
You are mistaken, IT IS A ROMAN ORGANIZATION! -- but you are free to
remain mistaken and still remain here. I just wish you would try to be
less obnoxious in your confusion.
>We welcome all to join us in our love of Rome and our pursuit to re-establish
>the
>PAGAN RELIGION OF ROME as a viable and respected institution.
EXACTLY, now you've got it right. Good going, Damianus Lucianus! (Of
course, I missed the Senatus Consulta which made you the welcoming
committee.)
>
>Yes...your own private religion...be it Christianity, Judaism, Mithraism,
>Wicca, Buddhism, Taoism, Native American Religion, Shintoism, Hinduism, Hare-
>Krishna or whater....is your own private concern and no one here will deny
>you
>otherwise.
So you DO agree with me. We're in accord. How lovely!
>But the official State Religion of Nova Roma is the Religio
>Romana...the PAGAN RELIGION OF ROME.
Yes, the Religio Romana, which you may label "pagan" if it thrills you
so. It is, indeed, THE (pagan) RELIGION of ROMA, and not "pagan
religion," that is established here.
>The debate is settled...this is a Pagan Organization.
Wrong, but you SEEM unable or unwilling to get the point.
>You are welcome to stay and join us or depart as you see fit.
Right again, Damianus Lucianus -- that will be as I see fit -- NOT as you
see fit. I thank you for acknowledging that.
>This is not a cult...but we are not
>merely a Classics Studies organization. We have a set purpose to restore the
>Religio and if you can't justify that to your own private religion, then I
>need to ask why are you here?
Ask all you like, but your question is obviously totally insincere and
rhetorical, and as stated above, I won't be listening or answering.
>--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Since you clearly refuse to get along with me, I shall cease trying to
get along with you. I suggest publically, as I previously suggested
privately, that we just leave each other alone. Don't anticipate any more
dialogue with me. This saddens me, but I think it best for Nova Roma, as
otherwise this constant antagonism you seem dedicated to carrying on
cannot be good for the Republic.
Vale, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Lucius Sergius Australicus
re vera, cara mea, mea nil refert.
(Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.)
|
| Subject: |
Re: Will anyone ever get a trial was Fannius |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:46:06 EST |
|
I agree on the need for a trial. Marconius' offense was against the State
as a whole (blaspheming against the gods and the state religion).
Fannius' offense was against an individual citizen. That doesn't seem to
me to be something the Senate should rule on.
On the other hand, since Fannius has publically confessed his guilt, what
would be the point of a trial? Why not just let the praetores urbani
assign a penalty? (How about 100 "Hail Caesars," in addition to the
public apology he has already made???)
L. Sergius Aust.
>From: "RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
>
>Salvete Claudia et alii
>
>First of all, I want to say Thank You Claudia, I am so appreciative of your
>taking the time to inform us of what you are doing in the Senate. There may
>never be another crisis like the one of November 13, owing to your
>"glasnost'"-like approach.
>
>
>>From: m--------oon m--------oon@--------
>>
>>In the matter of
>>Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives:
>>
>>It has been requested by some Citizens that I introduce the matter of
>>Fannius' alleged threat to Michael Marconi into the Senate. I am most
>>unhappy about doing so. But such things are the duties of Senators.
>
>While I do not know any more about the relevant facts than anyone else, I am
>forced to ask, will anyone in Nova Roma ever get a trial, or will everyone
>accused be judged by the Senate? Claudia, this question is not aimed at you
>in particular, heck, you just said that you did not want the Senate to act
>on this matter; it is aimed at the collective 'you', but especially at all
>Senators, sitting Praetores and Preaetores-elect Urbani.
>>
>>However, there is no point to having laws in NR if they are not
>>applicable to everyone. We have a law against threatening another
>>Citizen and Fannius broke that law. His apology and his understanding of
>>the equality of the law speak well for Fannius, as we all saw in his
>>post of his apology.
>
>Yes. But again, moving away from what Fannius did or did not actually do or
>say and looking at the process being applied: of what law is Fannius
>accused of violating? I would like to have a look at it, so that I can
>better understand why the Senate is acting on it.
>>
>>I want to make it clear that I have e-mailed Fannius about this matter,
>>and am awaiting his reply. I refuse to bring formal charges against a
>>Citizen until I have had private communication with him/her.
>
>I dont understand why or how you would bring charges against him. Is this
>not the duty of a Praetor Urbanus? Why did we bother having a campaign and
>election for Praetores Urbani, from which a candidate withdrew, apologizing
>profusely and no doubt troubled over the decision?
>
>Citizens, am I the only one here who would prefer that we have a court and
>trial process to deal with violations of the law?
>
>In the case of Romanus, there were strident calls for urgent action; it
>could be argued that there was a risk of some sort of splintering within our
>ranks had someone not taken official action quickly. But this is a
>different animal altogether. Noone, save Romanus, ever called urgently for
>action against Fannius. Fannius is not Enemy of the Gods, Fannius is not
>Enemy of the People. He might have violated a law; sounds like he perhaps
>should be put on trial. But he should not be punished by the Senate without
>an adversarial trial.
>
>By the way, Scaevola, Praetor Urbanus elect, pointed out that the Senate's
>action on Romanus would be juridically appropriate as long as there were
>some sort of hearing, in which both sides of the story were presented to the
>Senate, that is, something like prosecution vs. defense. Was that ever
>done? Is such planned for Fannius, or is it going to be debated and voted
>like any other consultum?
>>
>>All Citizens should be aware that there are varying penalties allowable
>>under the law, and that I am NOT calling for his expulsion from Nova
>>Roma.
>
>Good. Because expelling citizens without trials is not the way to go.
>>
>>-- Flavia Claudia
>>
>Valete
>
>Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pat as list moderator |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:46:08 EST |
|
Salve!
It sounds as if this job, by its very nature, needs to be of a higher
rank than quaestor. Doesn't a curule aedile have to be someone who has
previously served as consul? Or do I have that wrong? (Roman govt. has
always been confusing to me!)
How about creating an "e-praetor?"
L. Sergius Aust.
>From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla al--------us@--------
>
>Whow..here...do Quaestors have the authority to have Imperium...maybe she
>shoudl be appointed Curule Aedile..that way she does have Imperium...just a
>thought..
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
>Praetor Urbanis Elect
|
| Subject: |
Re: FREE TOO ROAM! |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:46:02 EST |
|
>Salvete Patricia Cassia et alii
>
>Since this person's fate has already been decided, can he not be removed
>from the list somehow?
>
>Valete
>
>Gaius Marius Merullus
Salve!
If I understand the decision posted, it sounds like he has 8 days to
appeal before the action becomes final.
However, it does seem desireable that his attacks not continue to be
posted in the meantime.
L. Sergius Aust.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Why Try Fannius? |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:52:58 EST |
|
In a message dated 12/30/98 8:48:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
KWTY11A@-------- writes:
> When a citizen moves to defend one of the two pillars of this community
(Religio Romana and Via Romana) against an openly illegal and direct assault
on our Constitution, is it right and just to then turn on a patriot?>>
Regardless of his motivation, Fannius allowed his anger to get the best of him
and he made outright threats to a (then) fellow citizen. I understand, and am
even sympathetic to, the fact that he was acting in what he perceived as
defense of our pagan populace. However, a threat is still a threat and cannot
be condoned or ignored.
<<If a law was infringed upon in his zeal to defend the Republic, is not his
open apology to the community sufficient in and of itself?>>
For myself, I would say that yes....it is. The fact that he was able to stand
back and look at his behavior and offer apologies, as well as a promise to not
go that far again, is sufficient for me. I have never professed to be
proficient at Roman law, so I cannot say whether this will satisfy other
citizens or our legal system.
The thing I seek to avoid is a double standard. Two folks acted poorly....the
one we disagree with (mainly) as pagans-we expell; the one we can relate to
(mainly) as pagans- we ignore. That does not speak well of justice having an
even hand within Nova Roma.
Priscilla Vedia Serena
|
| Subject: |
Re: My response for Fannius' case |
| From: |
m--------oon m--------oon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:06:53 -0500 |
|
RMerullo wrote:
>
> Yes that is true. Let us be the impetus for the creation of Nova Roma's
> first court, and a lex. Perhaps a Praetor Urbanus could hold a hearing,
> after which he would notify Fannius either that he is warned and not to face
> charges for this offense, or, that he will be tried at some future date. In
> the interim, the praetores could work on both the court and the law. And
> the comitiae could be made functional.
Now most of this strikes me as appropriate. I really don't want to see
this as a "test case" for NR. It will go on way too long in proportion
to the offense committed.
Honestly, a full trial for this is like sending a jaywalking case to the
Supreme Court. I don't want to do it. I don't think any of the Senators
want to do it. Let the Praetor Urbanis handle this. If Lucius or
Palladius would like to take this on in the next couple of days, I wish
they would. Let's wrap this up and move on.
Fannius himself is being most co-operative, saying again that he
apologizes and will accept whatever punishment he has to. I think a
simple warning is in order, perhaps a ban on posting for a week or two
at the very worst, which I believe that Fannius' word of honor to
refrain from posting would be all that is required.
In light of the discussion here, I do NOT plan on pursuing this matter
in the Senate, and I thank all of you for your intelligent opinions.
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: No prateor urbanus? was Who will defend Fannius? |
| From: |
m--------oon m--------oon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:08:52 -0500 |
|
RMerullo wrote:
>
> From: "RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
>
>
> I thought that we had two - Decius Iunius Palladius and Lucius Equitius
> Cincinnatus. I thought that magistrates' terms coincided with calendar
> years.
> >
You're absolutely right, and I'm sorry. I should have checked the date!
My apologies to the very existant Lucius and Palladius. (I'm already
think of you two as Consuls, guys!)
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pictures |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:11:28 EST |
|
Salvete Omnes!
Actually, if I may make so bold, there is in fact a list of individual
Citizens' sites. It's on the Active Gentes page. At least when I was web
master, whenever someone had a web site, I would put that as the link on their
name (as opposed to their email address). I'm assuming the practice has been
kept up, so there should be a fairly fruitful list of links on the Gentes
page.
Another place to look is the Provincia page. Some of the Praetors had taken
the initiative to create their own provincial web pages. Those got linked to
on the Provincia page.
And, of course, for those without their own web pages, there is a whole
section of the web site devoted to the Photo Gallery. I know that Roman Days
98 provided a plethora of snapshots, but I would think that any sort of Nova
Roman photos would be welcomed there; I know I have access to a scanner and
could forward them to Patricia if need be.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Co-Founder, Senator
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pat as list moderator |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:13:23 EST |
|
I know that Legio XX uses the term "Websartius" (which would make it a
military function...).
Maybe Praetor Electronicus? Praetor Websartius?
I think I like that last one...
Germanicus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?) |
| From: |
"Valerie Hannon" v_--------on@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:27:00 PST |
|
>From bounce-novaroma--3520-v_hannon Sun Dec 27 09:41:55 1998
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>M--------g--------: 36867150.267B08F2@--------
>Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:41:37 -0800
>From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla al--------us@--------
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>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (who's worse?)
>
>From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla al--------us@--------
>
>
>
>M--------2Two@-------- wrote:
>
>> From: M--------2Two@--------
>>
>> In a message dated 98-12-27 04:16:16 EST, Sulla writes:
>>
>> >
>> > Ok, let me first clarify Ericius statement. First I believe both
>> > citizens have violated the Constitution. I have been in
discussion with
>> > Fannius and I have contacted Marconius. Fannius has responded to
me,
>> > and as apologized publically to the list. I am satisfied with his
>> > response. I have yet to hear from Marconius.
>>
>> It seems to me that Marconius is too 'holier than thou' (no pun
intended) to
>> reply to ANYONE. I, too, believe both have violated the Constitution
(which I
>> have managed to reread). However........
>
>> >
>> > My main concern regarding Fannius is quite simply the threatening
of a
>> > citizen...but even beyond that the threatening of a human being.
While
>> > Marconius is a citizen of Nova Roma, he is still a Roman. Hence
the
>> > threatening of physical harm is something we as Romans and Human
Beings
>> > should not have to tolerate at all. Hence my view that he has
violated
>> > Article 1 Sec. 5 which states, "Where conflicts between these
arise, the
>> > civil law shall prevail...." My concern was for every Roman, not
just
>> > Marconius, we all have some disagreements. But threatening
physical
>> > harm is NEVER the answer. And, as an elected Magistrate of Nova
Roma, I
>> > will do my duty to make certain all citizens are safe and allowed
to
>> > voice their opinions and concerns without fear of repercussion,
whether
>> > phyiscal or mental in nature.
>> >
>> > However, I have had correspondence with Lucius Fannius Agelastus
Dives.
>> > And, while he has admited what he stated. He has apologized. And
I
>> > personally am assured as to his sincere apology.
>>
>> Yes......here it is....
>>
>> However (as stated above) I think the threat was stated in anger. I
think
>> Marconiusis the worse of the two evils. Fannius should apoligize
(which he
>> has) and get a good talking to about thinking before posting (i.e a
good sharp
>> slap on the wrist). Marconis, by his very words ("> I wish to save
souls>")
>> is violating the Constitution. Unless he reciently learned to read,
he knew
>> we were MOSTLY Pagan when he signed up. So......he seems to have
come in with
>> the intent of converting the majority of us (that means you too
>> Sulla.....being Jewish and not Christian....no matter how
non-practicing you
>> may be).
>>
>
>Marcoinus is aware..I consider myself attacked as much as you....as I
told Ericius
>in the Taverna when we originally had this conversation with him.
>
>>
>> The threats?? Hmmmmm. Maybe Dex should get in some sort of trouble
for
>> threatening to immasculate the entire male populace (I think he was
refering
>> to ALL males and not just those in NR) and maybe we should get
Noct'a too for
>> agreeing with him. And Noct'a has thwacked at least ONE person I know
of (I
>> refuse to gve up names). That's assult!!!! Isn't it? How many
times have I
>> said "Sulla you should be slapped"?? What about the receint banter
about
>> bondage (which probably started this whole mess)?
>>
>
>Come on Crys! There is a differnece between the banter that goes on the
>Taverna.....and physical threats. The concern I had was pure and
simple physical
>threats should not be tolerated...as I have said I have spoken with
Agelastus and
>I am satisfied with his apology.
>
>>
>> Honest, I am not trying to get anyone in trouble, but in the US
anyway, it is
>> not illegal to simply say "I'm going to KILL you!!". If that were
the case
>> most of this country would be in prison. Lapis father has stated in
no
>> uncertain terms he wishes his son were not (ie dead). Minnesota does
not
>> consider him a threat to my son, even if I do.
>>
>
>Well..yes and no..Crys..it might be considered illegal to threaten....I
dont
>really want to go into semantics regarding this...but. well...My
concern is for
>All citizens...not just the present situation...but if this happens to
occur in
>the future...
>
>>
>> So, what's the answer? Watch your words? Disagree with a smile on
your face?
>> I honestly don't get it. Somebody please 'splain.
>>
>>
>> Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
>> Praetor Urbanis - Elect
>>
>
>Again its me! :)
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
>Praetor Urbanis - Elect
>
>
>>
>> Crys (who dosen't really expect her questions to be answered half the
time,
>> unless she threatens someone <G>)
>>
Salvete!
A theat of violence against another person is totally unacceptable, and
a breach of the law.(Insofar as I understand the law of Nova Roma) In
serious matters like these an apology does not suffice. The Senate (or
appropriate istitution) must take action to punish the criminal. If
they do not, the laws will lose meaning..... If you commit a
crime...you must be punished. Honest disagreements can be handled
without resorting to threats of violence.
Ave Nova Roma!
Prima Cornelia Valeria Octavia
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Put your face in the Eagle! |
| From: |
m--------oon m--------oon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:26:45 -0500 |
|
JoeBloch@-------- wrote:
>
>
> And, of course, for those without their own web pages, there is a whole
> section of the web site devoted to the Photo Gallery. I know that Roman Days
> 98 provided a plethora of snapshots, but I would think that any sort of Nova
> Roman photos would be welcomed there; I know I have access to a scanner and
> could forward them to Patricia if need be.
Patricia has a new scanner and so do I -- both of us have turned into
scannin' freaks! (I've been known to try to scan my guinea pig - not a
picture, the actual pig!)
Remember that Crys has pictures of Nova Romans on her website, and the
EAGLE (that bargain at only $5 a year!) is now running the Nova Roma
Gallery -- pix of Cives. So send me some as .jpg files or send me your
pic with a SASE and I'll scan it and return it. No racy shots, please!
And be advised that if you send pics to the list, I'll shamelessly copy
them for the next issue.
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Great penalty! |
| From: |
m--------oon m--------oon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:30:38 -0500 |
|
LSergAust@-------- wrote:
>
>
> On the other hand, since Fannius has publically confessed his guilt, what
> would be the point of a trial? Why not just let the praetores urbani
> assign a penalty? (How about 100 "Hail Caesars," in addition to the
> public apology he has already made???)
>
LOL! Now THERE'S a suitable penalty for a Roman! However, I hope you're
not suggesting he has to post them to the list?
-- FC
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pictures |
| From: |
Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:37:40 -0800 |
|
Salvete M. Mala Gangalius.
Well come to Nova Roma. Your website is very interesting. I
hope to hear more of you in the future. If you have a chance
check out the Nova Roma chat room Get there via the Master Site
link to the Forum Romanum. The chat room, when it is working, is
a good place to meet the actual people of this little republic.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius
Praetor of California Provincia
Pontiff
Paterfamilias of gens Aelia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Duck!! Here comes another one! |
| From: |
"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:18:12 -0800 (PST) |
|
>
> Salvete iterum
> This was taken in September it was in the 90's but it didn't
rain so that was a first for me camping with the Legio XX. I hope
everyone enjoys these as much as I enjoyed making them!
>
> Valete, L Equitius
>
Hehehe!
At last we get to see some legs on here!!!!
Noct'a
|
