Forum Romanum


Subject:	FREE TOO ROAM!
From:	michael marconi mdm8@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:00:24 -0500

Salvete!

Well, it appears that some of you 'Romans will receive your
Christmas gift a little late. But, better late than never. So it seems
that I am about to loose my citizenship! I had expected as much, but I
thought that it would of occur much sooner. The reason that I lost, or
am about too loose, my citizenship is for the simple fact that what I
had said tugged at your insecure little pagan hearts. I made you
realize, or at least made your think about, that being a pagan and
performing the various pagan rituals were not the right way to achieve
everlasting salvation.
I fail to understand just how a fledgling micro-nation is expected
to flourish while at the same time it is being governed/run by a
hodgepodge of hundreds, if not thousands, of religions. Each one pulling
in its own way(s) till this micro-nation is twisted and distorted in
such a manner that it becomes unrecognizable. Than just when one, after
realizing the errs of their ways, would think that this madness most be
stopped, nation suddenly explodes with a bang. And amongst the countless
chards lie the hopes and the dreams of the misguided men and women.
Bible scholars frequently mention that there shall come into this
world that of a New Rome. Based upon the principles of the new world
order, and as such this New Rome will be the leader, or play an
important part in the making of the European Community. The Vatican is
already lost! Since Pope Pious XII, the last true pope, all other Popes
that held the Chair of Peter are anti-popes. They, with the help of the
free masons and other secrete societies, modernized the Church-in the
effort to destroy it- and it worked. But, all is not lost! What we, true
Catholics, have today are numbers of individuals, being guided by the
hand of God and returning too the original Catholic Church-the
"Tridentine Mass". It is here that one will find God's message. And will
fight to the death in protecting and preserving it. For it is the truth,
the real truth and the only truth. You can pray too a tree, sacrifice a
bull to Zeus or a virgin to the mighty something volcano god. It will do
you no good. For like Sodom and Gomorrah, this New Rome is destined to
be destroyed by God's wrath.
Enough is enough-stop the madness! You cannot continue onward in
this spiraling dance of mundane nonsense of blasphemy and human
depravity. You are destined too an eternity in hell-or whatever you wish
to name it.
This next part is for Dex and those which are a liken to him. In the
New Testament the stance against homosexuality is quit clear. Romans
1:26-26 teaches:

"For this cause God gave them up to vile affection: for even their
women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And
likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of women, burned in their
lust one toward another: men with men working that which is unseemly,
and receiving in themselves that recompose of their error which was
meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge,
God gave them over to the reprobate mind, to do those things that are
not convenient."

So as to help fulfill God's divine plan and in the process
hopefully help those confused individuals of NR, that continue to
practice their false teachings of paganism, find the truth, I have
enclosed, recited and meditated upon this invocation and prayer. NR is
in a greater peril than many of you may have realized. As I had
mentioned earlier God will destroy the evil(s) that NR now profits upon.
Invocation

That Thou wouldst vouchsafe to bring low the enemies of the holy
Church, we beseech Thee to hear us. (Roman Ritual)

O glorious Prince of the heavenly host, Saint Michael the Archangel
defend us in the battle and the fearful warfare that we are waging
against the principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world
darkness, against the evil spirits. Come thou to the assistance of men,
whom Almighty God created immortal, making them in his own image and
likeness and redeeming them at a great price from the tyranny of Satan.
Fight this day the battle of the Lord with thy legions of holy Angels,
even as of old thou didst fight against Lucifer, the leader of the proud
spirits and all his rebel angels, who were powerless against thee,
neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that apostate
angel, transformed into an angel of darkness who still creeps about the
earth to encompass our ruin, was cast headlong into the abyss together
with his followers. But behold, that first enemy of mankind, and a
murder from the beginning, has regained his confidence. Changing himself
into an angel of light, he goes about with a whole multitude of the
wicked spirits to invade the earth and out the Name of God and of his
Christ, to plunder, to slay and to consign to eternal damnation the
souls that have been destined for a crown of everlasting life. This
wicked serpent, like an unclean torrent, pours into men of depraved
minds and corrupt hearts the poison of his malice, the spirit of lying,
impiety and blasphemy, and the deadly death of impurity and every form
of vice and iniquity. These crafty enemies of mankind have filled to
overflowing with gall and wormwood the Church, which is the Bride of the
Lamb without spot; they had laid profane hands upon her most sacred
treasures. Make hast, therefore, O invincible Prince, to help the people
of God against the inroads of the lost spirits and grant us victory.
Amen.

Sincerely
Michael Marconi


Subject:	FREE TOO ROAM!
From:	michael marconi mdm8@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:03:46 -0500


Subject:	Re: FREE TOO ROAM!
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:19:24 +0000

Ericius, this is beautiful, beautiful, beautiful! The Gods bless you
too!

Pythia
> >
> > Good bye Michael Marconi who has been proven once again worthy of
> > being expelled forever from Nova Roma for his ignorance and intolerance.
> > May you find one day the wisdom and the maturity you most desperately
> > need in your dealings with other human beings and my sincere desire that
> > you find what you are looking for in life at noone else's expense.
> >
> > Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>
> Mike Macaroni once again showed himself to be one of those who no one should
> have to associate with. He has also shown himself to be a Christian
> Catholic heretic. On top of that, having checked out the TradCath beastie
> from which he got most of his text (his is probably the part with all the
> misspellings) I do not think that they would be all that pleased with his
> activities. In fact their list guidelines are very civil, and laudable.
> One might even say Roman. But rather than inform them that their stray lamb
> is leaving droppings on the carpet, I think we should conduct their own
> investigation and trial.
>
> I do commend Michael Marconi to Iove Pater, the guarantor of the laws of
> hospitality, in keeping with which Michael Marconi was welcomed into Nova
> Roma. I commend Michael Marconi to Diana Venatrix who is known for her even
> handed treatment of those who render Her honors as well as those cast insult
> upon Her, as evidenced in the story of Diana and the Children which has come
> down to us from Italy in the Middle Ages, and attested to in earlier stories
> of transgressions of Her privacy and prerogatives. And as the old ladies in
> Little Italy used to say of people who called special attention to
> themselves, I wish Michael Marconi a long life, with a mate suitable for
> him, and many children that he will think of in his old age. And that all
> the Gods and Goddesses of Roma, and Hellas and the entire Mediterranean
> always keep Michael Marconi in Their minds and that They take hand in all
> that Michael Marconi endeavors. I wish Michael Marconi all the success and
> happiness that the Gods and Goddesses of Roma and Hellas and the whole of
> the Mediterranean see fit to bestow upon him. As surely as I am typing
> these words I do wish Michael Marconi to have no less than he warrants and
> may Hermes Turms Mercurius guide Michael Marconi down those paths that are
> proper for him. Ita vultis ita est.
>
> Caius Aelius Ericius.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.


Subject:	Re: RELIGI--------..!
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:20:43 +0000

Dexippus@-------- wrote:

> However, I think I need to voice a concern over so many lists. We all are
> gonna see our mailboxes filled up rather quickly with multiple posts on
> diferent lists and more people responding to exponential posts.
>
> Can we see about limiting the number of lists? or something?

Well, my Religio list exists solely for the purpose of discussing the
Gods of the Religio, and Hellenic Polytheism. It is not a Wicca list,an
Asatru list, a comparative religion list, or a place for anyone who does
have a love for the Gods.

I would also PLEAD with subscribers to avoid a lot of "one line"
responses!!

Other than that....make yourselves right at home ;-)

Pythia


Subject:	C--------CTI-------- Re: RELIGI--------..!
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:22:57 +0000

Pythia wrote:
>
> From: Pythia kingan@--------

This SHOULD have read....

or a place for anyone who does
> NOT have a love for the Gods.


Subject:	Re: Recreating the Republic
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:19:14 +0000

Indeed, way back when I was an Anglican the
> >(Evangelicals) at Sts Peter & Paul Tonbridge Anglican church used to tell
> >jokes about the (Anglo-Catholics) at King Charles the Martyr Anglican
> >church Tunbridge Wells,

LOL...I just discovered this Episcopal saint, and I decided he's my
favorite! Great hair, cute dog named after him...and I hate Cromwell
anyway.....

Pythia,(Still trying to wash the scent of insense out of her clothes
from midnight mass.....)


Subject:	Religio Subscribe
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:47:58 +0000

If you want to subscribe to the Pythia's Religio list go to
www.onelist.com and apply to
<a href="mailto:religio@--------" >religio@--------</a>


Subject:	Condolances.
From:	Magnus Ingmarsson emperor@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:03:09 +0100

Crys.

I hereby bring forth my deepest sympathy for you in this sad moment.

Magnus Hadrianus


Subject:	Pictures
From:	Magnus Ingmarsson emperor@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:55:04 +0100

Ave!

Since I subscribe to the digest version of the list I miss out on al the
nice attachments.

I would like to share the experience of a certain citizen in a Toga and
therefor I have the following suggestion:

Why don't we link the homepages (or pages suitable for our romanselves) of
the citizens who feel this is a good idea to the Nova Roma site?

If there already is such a place I humbly ask for directions to get there.

Vale!
Magnus Hadrianus


Subject:	Re: Religio Subscribe
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:03:56 EST

In a message dated 12/30/98 1:37:57 PM EST, kingan@-------- writes:

<< you want to subscribe to the Pythia's Religio list go to
www.onelist.com and apply to
<a href="mailto:religio@--------" >religio@--------</a> >>

I've been trying to join this Religio list for hours and ONEList is not
cooperating!!!!

Why such trouble?

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Leges Novae Romae was Re: Will anyone ever get a trial was Fan...
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:11:52 EST

Ok...here's my two cents...

Does he need a trial? He violated the constitution by threatening physical
harm to citizens.

Can't the Senate just act?

Oh the beuracracy!

--Dexippus
<<erecting another cross for crucifixion...don't panic christians, it was a
popular Roman means of execution>>


Subject:	Re: Why Try Fannius?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:24:55 EST

In a message dated 12/30/98 8:56:49 PM EST, KWTY11A@-------- writes:

<< However, considering that Fannius was responding to the action of
a now adjudged and exiled party; I for one would ask that the Senate
simply table this matter. When a citizen moves to defend one of the
two pillars of this community (Religio Romana and Via Romana) against
an openly illegal and direct assault on our Constitution, is it right
and just to then turn on a patriot? >>

Perhaps if this was just a threat to the former "M" then I may tend to accept
this as reasonable. But Fannius' post threatened ALL CHRISTIANS and being as
there are some christians among the populace of Nova Roma, that became a
threat to them as well.

I don't think his violation should resort to exhile as I am certain it was
instigated by the vile post of the former "M" and he did offer up a public and
sincere apology. But it can't go unanswered either.

I have faith in Flavia Claudia and our Senate to resolve this issue to the
best interest of Nova Roma.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Recreating the Republic
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:48:42 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/30/98 9:47:42 PM EST, LSergAust@-------- writes:

<< Again, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus, you try to pick a fight with me by
pretending that the founding documents say something other than what they
plainly say. >>

No, my friend...it is you who are pretending that the founding documents say
something other than what they say. But hey...if you want to pretend this
isn't a pagan organization, go right ahead. Everyone needs to live a fantasy
every now and then...

<>

Well...you're right there...I DON'T LIKE YOU! I told you in a private e-mail
back during the Byzantine/Roman debate that I don't like you and that we will
probably never see eye to eye on this list and I will answer all your
misleading posts! You have shown yourself unworthy of my support or
befriendmanship. For insults you delivered unto me during that past debate
which you refused to offer an apology for....thus showing your true cowardly
colors.

<<I've been making an effort to nicely ignore your remarks, but the effort
is tiring. So in the future I shall simply ignore your posts. I find it
amusing that you disagree with me and then you affirm what I said. But
your basic premise is so transparently inaccurate that it cannot stand
unanswered. >>

Oh cut the bullshit you circle-talking ignoramous! Fine...ignore my
posts..you won't be able to get around them since so many other citizens will
cut and paste to either support or offer further suggestions to remarks I
make. Stop acting like a total jack-ass and get a life!

<<Obviously YOU WISH for this to be a "pagan organization" but
that is not what the founding documents say it is. This is a ROMAN
organization, intended to revive ROMAN culture, ROMAN virtues, and ROMAN
religion.>>

Well..first of all, get the order right: "Nova Roma is dedicated to the
restoration of CLASSICAL ROMAN RELIGION, CULTURE, AND VIRTUES".

Now there is only one way to solve this debate. Oh Senators...Oh Consuls...Oh
Founders (you know who you are). Can I please finally get some public
clarification on the purpose and position of Nova Roma? If we are a Pagan
Organization as I maintain, and willingfully welcome those of other faiths,
then please state so and let the chips fall where they may! Or if we are not
a Pagan Organization and the Religio is just a "nice to have" as Australicanus
believes, then please state so as well, and let the chips fall the other way.

I'm tired of this pussy-footing around our identity!

<<Only YOU seem to insist on continuing to quarrel this
way.>>

Yeah...whatever...it was your post that I responded to....Go rotate your
tires.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: FREE TOO ROAM!
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:52:32 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/30/98 9:48:46 PM EST, LSergAust@-------- writes:

<< If I understand the decision posted, it sounds like he has 8 days to
appeal before the action becomes final.

However, it does seem desireable that his attacks not continue to be
posted in the meantime.
>>

He should be removed from the list immediately. By his last post it is
obvious that he has no intention of appealing his exhile.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Toga
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:44:15 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Gaius Marius Merullus

I quote from Connelly's "Greece and Rome at War";

" Above the centuriate was a group of semi-professional officers. The
Tribunes came first. There were six of them to an Empire Legion.
Technically they were al "equites" but the senior ranking "Tribunas
Laticlavius" wore the broad band (purple) which showed that he was
accepted as a candidate for Senate; (he would be under the age of 25 the
minimum age for entering the Senate as "Quaestor"); the other five
Tribunus Angusticlavii wore the narrow purple band and would have had
some experience in the army, as a prefect or as a senior magistrate of
his town."

Although the above paragraph explains the Broad Purple Stripe I am left
wondering what the Narrow Purple Stripe signified.

Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Toga
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:49:56 -0500 (EST)

Got It!!! The narrow purple stripe indicated Equestrian Status.

Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Togae apologies!
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:54:11 -0500 (EST)

Hey not to worry!!! I appreciatted the chance to ask some questions and
do a little research.

Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Leges Novae Romae
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 04:02:33 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/30/98 9:12:18 PM P--------ic St--------rd Time, Dexippus@--------
writes:

<< Erecting another cross for crucifixion...don't panic christians, it was a
popular Roman means of execution.

Which was taken from the Carthaginians. Romans always adopt the best.

Q Fabius


Subject:	Re: Recreating the Republic
From:	"A. I. Crystallina" aicrys@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:10:35 -0600

From: Dexippus@--------

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/30/98 9:47:42 PM EST, LSergAust@-------- writes:

Now there is only one way to solve this debate. Oh Senators...Oh Consuls...Oh
Founders (you know who you are). Can I please finally get some public
clarification on the purpose and position of Nova Roma? If we are a Pagan
Organization as I maintain, and willingfully welcome those of other faiths,
then please state so and let the chips fall where they may! Or if we are not
a Pagan Organization and the Religio is just a "nice to have" as Australicanus
believes, then please state so as well, and let the chips fall the other way.

I'm tired of this pussy-footing around our identity!

I would LOVE to have this information.......somebody PLEASE respond this time. And in ENGLISH please. Is Nova Roma Pagan but openminded enough to allow non-Pagans in or isn't it?

Crys )pretty tired her damn self)


Subject:	Prosecution of Fannius
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:36:05 -0800

Ave Cives,

As Praetor Urbanis elect, I feel it is my duty as and elected Magistrate
of Nova Roma to offer my services as to proseucte Lucius Fannius
Agelastus Dives on charges of violation of the Constitution. As our
noble Senator Claudia made clear, "We have a law against threatening
another Citizen and Fannius broke that law." And, therefore he must be
accountable for his actions. I humbly make this request, to the Senate
and People of Nova Roma.

Long Live Nova Roma

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Praetor Urbanis Elect


Subject:	Re: Death in the family
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 04:55:11 -0500 (EST)

I used to really get upset in my early adulthod about friends and
relatives passing away until I got to thinking hard about it (When my
Dad that grand old man passed on).

My dad had always loved to travel and had been to Alaska, Greenland
Brazil Africa Turkey and about every state in the U.S. and province in
Canada. I remember him always being excited when he was leaving for an
overseas job or just a vacation with the family. In my view this last
trip into the next world is the big one!! I could and can picture him
at the foor of the stairway or with his foot on the Bifrost Bridge, or
just waiting for a train moving off toward whatever our reward is to be.
He'll be there with his black suit, and a plain tie just tied a tad too
short and the old blue travel bag with Alaska printed on it and a smile
on his face. He's well-armed for what is to come as he was a good
friend a great father, and a hell of an all around man. He didn't go
to church much as he was usually working for the family didn't have a
formal education but left this world at the head of his profession and
in the hearts of a lot of people.

Disppointed? Hell yes he was my dad! Saddened? Oh no, I don't think
so. You see this is the big one and whatever way he goes he'll be
asking the conductor how the train works or the driver how it does on
turns, but he'll be having the time of hs life!!! I woulldn't want to
take any of that away from him. Oh he'll think of me when he gets there
cause he loves me and I know that but until then I'll just be happy that
he is happy and do my best to make my last trip a good one.

I don't know your uncle kiddo, but I'll bet he would say something like
"Hey, there straighten up, be happy for me, cause this is the big
one!!!" He ain't gone you know till you forget him and he'll be at the
end of the line whereever that is, waiting for you so buckle up the tear
ducts say the best prayer you know to and send him on his way, remember
him well, and make sure that you keep yourself straight so that when
it's your time on the station platform you got a paid up ticket to where
he is waiting.

Audens.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Prosecution of Fannius
From:	"A. I. Crystallina" aicrys@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:58:25 -0600

::::::::pulling up my comfy chair, got my popcorn right at hand, couple 2 liters of Mountain Dew::::::::::

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crys (staying as outta it as she can)

----------
From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla[SMTP:al--------us@--------]
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 1998 3:36 AM
To: Se--------@--------; NovaRoma
Subject: [novaroma] Prosecution of Fannius

From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla al--------us@--------

Ave Cives,

As Praetor Urbanis elect, I feel it is my duty as and elected Magistrate
of Nova Roma to offer my services as to proseucte Lucius Fannius
Agelastus Dives on charges of violation of the Constitution. As our
noble Senator Claudia made clear, "We have a law against threatening
another Citizen and Fannius broke that law." And, therefore he must be
accountable for his actions. I humbly make this request, to the Senate
and People of Nova Roma.

Long Live Nova Roma

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Praetor Urbanis Elect

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Subject:	Re: Prosecution of Fannius
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:34:36 EST

In a message dated 12/31/98 1:36:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
al--------us@-------- writ--------br>
<< Ave Cives,
As Praetor Urbanis elect, I feel it is my duty as an elected Magistrate
of Nova Roma to offer my services as to prosecute Lucius Fannius
Agelastus Dives on charges of violation of the Constitution. As our
noble Senator Claudia made clear, "We have a law against threatening
another Citizen and Fannius broke that law." And, therefore he must be
accountable for his actions. I humbly make this request, to the Senate
and People of Nova Roma.

Long Live Nova Roma

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor Praetor Urbanis Elect

Salve Lucius Cornelius Sulla!
I applaud your request. The Senate should hear both sides of the story, then
decide.
Perhaps a fine? Community Service to NR?? The august body will have
different choices they can draw on.
Thank you again, Sulla.
Vale!
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: Pat as list moderator
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 06:40:50 -0500 (EST)

Germanicus;

May I be so bold as to suggest "Cornicularius"---He who headed
thewriting office which dealt with the copius flowof documents
characteristic of the Roan army??

This officer was appointed only to senior officers down to the rank of
"Praefectus castorum."

Reference:

Greece and Rome At War---Connolly

Marcus Minucius Audens
Quaestor - Elect
Military Tribune

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Recreating the Republic
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 06:10:52 -0600 (CST)

Salvete, omnes...

I was asked some time ago by one of our Citizens what the purpose of
Nova Roma is. Now that the Citizen body as a whole has taken up the
question, I would like to share my understanding of the matter--as I,
too, keep hearing different stories, some more inclusive than others,
and would like some public official comment on the matter.

What IS Nova Roma...? Well, apparently (I wasn't there, but this is
what's told) it *was* started as a Roman Pagan revivalist movement. It
very quickly became more than that, however. As it describes itself on
the Web site, "Nova Roma is an organization dedicated to the study and
restoration of ancient Roman culture." Front page, first paragraph,
right there where everybody can see it. Yet this simple fact seems to
have completely slipped by some of our Citizens...Roman Culture is way
bigger than any single aspect of it, including the military...including
the Religio.

Skimming the rest of the front page, we can summarize our mission
statement just by quoting the first sentence of each paragraph:

"The centerpiece of the activities of Nova Roma is the Religio Romana,
the ancient faith of the people of Rome..."

"Also important is the Via Romana, a general revival of Roman culture,
arts, and most especially what are known as the Roman Virtues..."

And the last paragraph deserves to be quoted in full:
Nova Roma is more than a historical recreation society,
although we are that. We are more than a pagan religious
organization, although we are that, too. We are more than a
classical studies group, but that falls within our purview as
well. We are nothing less than a sovereign nation, an attempt
to re-create the best of classical pagan Rome (with a few
compromises to modern times), and we invite you to join us by
applying for citizenship today.

So there we are in our own words--the first words anyone considering
joining us ever sees.

A lot of people came for the first part, the Religio Romana. I don't
think there's another group on the planet that is doing as much to
breathe new life into Roman Paganism. I take it that's what drew Crys
or Dex to Nova Roma; I don't know when they joined, but if it was near
the beginning that might actually have been the whole purpose of the
group back then. As the old splash page used to say (the one with
Augustus' statue), "...because the Gods of Olympus are calling..."

Now, me, I came for the second part, the Via Romana. I have for many
years considered myself a Roman in spirit, and tried to uphold the
Virtues and make the culture a part of my life. Well, you've heard me
say that before, and more gracefully, too. But for the longest I
thought I was the only one; I and those who were influenced by my
example. So when I saw the words 'cultural revival', I said
'BINGO!'--This is what my life has been about for the last half-dozen
years, longer if you count all the years of devotion to duty and
intense self-discipline *before* I figured out that I was a Roman (all
that did was help me to understand why). The second blurb on the
splash page was"...because Roman Virtues are more important than
'family values'..."

But you notice that last paragraph, the one with all the "more than's"?
As Sulla (I think, or maybe it was Sergius Austalis) said, we are
greater than the sum of our parts. In other words, you can chop Nova
Roma into all its little pieces and areas of interest, but you still
have that 'something' left over that is shared by every piece, and that
is the desire and determination to make Ancient Rome LIVE again.

Am I understanding this correctly? Or does the very appearance of the
words 'pagan' or 'Religio' cancel out the presence of any other terms
in their immediate vicinity, such as 'classical', 'Roman', or
'culture'?
---
__________ _<~) __________
<-\\\\@@@@@) /##\ (@@@@@////-> M�ria Villarroel legion6@--------
<-\\\@@@@(#####@@@@///-> Historical Re-Creationist
<-\\\*##*///-> and Citizen of Rome
o---<<<<||SPQR||>>>>---o Latin lessons, History lectures
///\\\ Role-playing Games, too!

aka Lucius Marius Fimbria on the weekends


Subject:	Re: Recreating the Republic
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 07:36:41 -0500 (EST)

Lucius Marius Fimbria;

I have read your posting on Nova Roma, and I must comment that if you
have said it better on other ocasions you did a great job of it just
now.

Your description is how I see Nova Roma; I'm not pagan but I am
interested in knowing more about the Gods what they stood for
individually and together You all know I am a little buggy about the
military and the navy I was to learn about the government so on the 1st
of June I will be in it and I just had a great Saturnalia celebration
with a new set of friends.

I feel comfortable here much more so than in many churches that I have
been in, and way more than some cities I have visited. I certainly
realize that I will never be a religious Pontiff here but some of the
Pontffs are good friends. I will never be a augur, but the augurs and I
know each other as some one to trust. I am busy building my navy and my
artillery in models and I am readying my military uniform and making
plans to obtain a political uniform. I probably will never be the top
man here nor do I expect it, but I will always be busy and having fun.

What's not to like??
Hail Lucius Marius Fimbria!!
For Doing A Great Job f Describing Our Nova Roma!!

Marcus Minucius Audens;
Quaestor - Elect
Military Tribune

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re Fannius: Let's Do this the Republican Roman Way [long post]
From:	Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:45:01 -0500

Salvete Omnes!

I got up this morning (well, OK, actually around noon) and found a whole
pile of posts about the (proposed) prosecution of Fannius. I thought I'd
lay out the way the Republican Romans would have handled this matter. So
this is going to be a bit of a long post.

(1) The Senate didn't handle criminal trials in the Republic. When it looks
as though it was doing so, it was actually acting extra-legally to deal
with public emergencies like the Catilinarian conspiracy.
So the Senate shouldn't deal with Fannius. It was only right for
the Senate to deal with Marconius because our Constitution expressly gives
the Senate power to revoke citizenship.

(2) The Republic had a system of "police magistrates", the tresviri
capitales (three headmen) who dealt with "ordinary crime" and were
prosecutor, judge and jury. But there was a right of appeal to the Comitia
Centuriata against any judgment against a citizen involving death or exile.
Our Constitution doesn't provide for tresviri capitales, we don't need
them, and anyhow Fannius' alleged action wouldn't have come under their
remit.
Apart from the tresviri capitales, the Republic DID NOT HAVE PUBLIC
PROSECUTORS. All prosecutions were private. The Praetors did not act as
prosecutors.
So it's quite inappropriate for Sulla to act as prosecutor. It's
also inappropriate for another reason. This is that any prosecution of
Fannius will now have to take place after New Year and Sulla (and/or I)
will have to sit as judges, whatever procedure is used.

(3) Threats of violence were not public crimes until the Lex Julia de vi
publica et privata (Julian Law on public and private violence) passed by
Julius Caesar during his dictatorship. They amounted to the delict, in
Anglo-American terms tort, of "iniuria". ("Iniuria" is not directly
translatable because it covers in Anglo-American terms assault, battery,
defamation, invasion of privacy and associated matters). Only Marconius
(the party allegedly wronged) could sue, and since he's been exiled, he
can't.
We can treat Fannius' action as a possible crime in one of three
ways.
(a) We could follow the L. Julia de vi, even though it dates from
the fall of the Republic. The difficulty is that the text is lost & all we
have are academic comments on individual sections.
(b) Our Constitution, Art. II. 6. sub-sect. 6, guarantees to
Citizens "The right to remain sovereign and secure within one's own home,
person and property". It may be alleged that Fannius' alleged threat to
Marconius amounts to an invasion of this right and as such to a breach of
the Constitution by Fannius. This involves issues of both law (how credible
does a threat need to be to amount to such an invasion?) and fact (did
Fannius in fact threaten? (I understand this is admitted) and was the
threat sufficiently credible?)
(c) Several citizens have made the point that a threat to kill is
an offence under the "civil law", i.e. the law of the relevant state
jurisdiction. Are Marconius and Fannius resident in the same state? If they
aren't, the US Federal courts would have jurisdiction: what is the relevant
Federal law? Sulla probably knows this stuff better than me and certainly
has better access to relevant sources. I must say that I would hate to have
to adjudge this case under English criminal law. Under this law threats to
kill made by snail-mail are straightforwardly a crime, but since the
relevant statute dates from the eighteenth century to make it cover email
would involve extending it by interpretation. Oral threats to kill,
however, are only an offence if they are either credible and face-to-face
(assault) or likely to provoke a "breach of the peace". In contract law,
telex and fax have been treated as oral rather than mail; does this apply
to email? Is the contract law stuff relevant to crime? Both issues are moot
(highly debateable).
I would therefore go for (b). If any Citizen wishes to prosecute
Fannius, it should be for a breach of Art. II.6.6. of the Constitution.

(4) A prosecution was started by formal accusation by any citizen. This
should be sent to the Urban Praetor/s (there was one in the later Republic;
his colleague was the "Peregrine Praetor" who dealt with cases involving
foreigners. We have two, which I think means that they have to act as a
panel). Like an indictment, an accusation should assert (a) alleged facts
which form the basis of the accusation, and (b) what law these facts are
said to be a breach of.
It is then the duty of the Praetors to decide whether, if all the
alleged facts are true, they are capable of amounting to the alleged crime.
This is a decision solely on law and in essence boils down to: has the
accuser correctly stated the law in question? If the accusation does not
disclose a crime, they dismiss it.

(5) If the Praetors accept that the accusation is formally OK it goes
forward to the trial court. In the early Republic this was the Comitia
Centuriata. In the later Republic it would be a "Quaestio" or 'jury' court,
presided over by the Praetor. The 'jurors' were selected from a standing
panel by the Praetor, with accuser and accused having rights to object to
individual 'jurors'. Unlike modern Anglo-American jurors, the 'jurors' were
judges both of law and fact and fixed the sentence. The Praetor merely
chairs the meeting and advises on the law.
Our constitution contemplates trial before the Comitia Centuriata
under the presidency of the Praetors (Art. 3.4.4) or the Concilium
("Comitia") Plebis under the presidency of the Quaestors (Art. IV.3).
I agree with those citizens who have argued that this is a pretty
unsatisfactory way for Nova Roma to conduct a trial. However, if we're
going to change it, we need a Lex to be passed for this purpose. IT IS NOW
A MATTER OF URGENCY THAT THE CENSORS SHOULD ASSIGN CENTURIES AND TRIBES SO
THAT THE COMITIAE/ CONCILIUM PLEBIS CAN BE CONSTITUTED.

(6) At trial, both accuser and accused were entitled to advocates.
Advocates were not lawyers, but rhetoricians (public speakers) and there
was no state or professional control over who could act. So any citizen
could act as advocate for Fannius or his possible accuser. Evidence was
normally given on oath. Otherwise, there were no rules of evidence except
that under the L. Julia de vi close relatives of the accused could not give
evidence.

(7) Penalties could be financial (fines; most common), corporal (death,
exile) or legal (inability to stand for office, etc). "Iniuria" for
instance attracted a liability to pay damages to the plaintiff, but also a
penalty of infamia, which meant inability to appear as a witness in court,
receive gifts by will, and other disabilities.

(8) Our Constitution provides that if a trial is conducted in the Concilium
Plebis there is a right of appeal to the Comitia Centuriata (Art. IV.2).
But there is nothing to prevent a trial being conducted in the first place
in the Comitia Centuriata.

(9) I agree strongly with those Citizens who have argued that we should "do
it right". It's a matter of taking our Romanitas seriously. I really don't
think that it's too much to expect that we should get the Comitiae set up
so that we can handle this matter properly or legislate for better ways of
doing it.

Valete

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister


Subject:	Re: Re Fannius: Let's Do this the Republican Roman Way [long post]
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:42:45 -0500

Salvete Omnes! et Ave M.Mucius Scaevola Magister
>
>So this is going to be a bit of a long post.
>(1) The Senate didn't handle criminal trials in the Republic.
> So the Senate shouldn't deal with Fannius. It was only right for
>the Senate to deal with Marconius because our Constitution expressly gives
>the Senate power to revoke citizenship.
>
Thank you.

>(2) The Republic had a system of "police magistrates", the tresviri
>capitales (three headmen) who dealt with "ordinary crime" and were
>prosecutor, judge and jury.
> Apart from the tresviri capitales, the Republic DID NOT HAVE PUBLIC
>PROSECUTORS. All prosecutions were private. The Praetors did not act as
>prosecutors.

Yes, this is my view as well.

> So it's quite inappropriate for Sulla to act as prosecutor.

Plus he isn't Praetor yet.
>
>(3) Threats of violence were not public crimes until the Lex Julia de vi
>publica et privata (Julian Law on public and private violence) passed by
>Julius Caesar during his dictatorship.
> We can treat Fannius' action as a possible crime in one of three
>ways.
> (a) We could follow the L. Julia de vi, even though it dates from
>the fall of the Republic.
> (b) Our Constitution, Art. II. 6. sub-sect. 6, guarantees to
>Citizens "The right to remain sovereign and secure within one's own home,
>person and property". (I understand this is admitted) and was the
>threat sufficiently credible?)
> (c) Several citizens have made the point that a threat to kill is
>an offence under the "civil law",
> I would therefore go for (b). If any Citizen wishes to prosecute
>Fannius, it should be for a breach of Art. II.6.6. of the Constitution.
>
As yet none has brought a complaint to me or as far as I know my
colleague,
Decius Iunius Palladius.

>(4) A prosecution was started by formal accusation by any citizen. This
>should be sent to the Urban Praetor/s

So far none has been brought, everyone seems to be content to argue in
the Forum.

> It is then the duty of the Praetors to decide whether, if all the
>alleged facts are true, they are capable of amounting to the alleged crime.
>This is a decision solely on law and in essence boils down to: has the
>accuser correctly stated the law in question? If the accusation does not
>disclose a crime, they dismiss it.
>(5) If the Praetors accept that the accusation is formally OK it goes
>forward to the trial court. In the early Republic this was the Comitia
>Centuriata. In the later Republic it would be a "Quaestio" or 'jury' court,
>presided over by the Praetor.

Or his appointed judge.

> Our constitution contemplates trial before the Comitia Centuriata
>under the presidency of the Praetors (Art. 3.4.4) or the Concilium
>("Comitia") Plebis under the presidency of the Quaestors (Art. IV.3).
> I agree with those citizens who have argued that this is a pretty
>unsatisfactory way for Nova Roma to conduct a trial. However, if we're
>going to change it, we need a Lex to be passed for this purpose. IT IS NOW
>A MATTER OF URGENCY THAT THE CENSORS SHOULD ASSIGN >CENTURIES AND TRIBES SO
THAT THE COMITIAE/ CONCILIUM PLEBIS CAN >BE CONSTITUTED.
>
YES, I too have been calling for this action.

>(6) At trial, both accuser and accused were entitled to advocates.
>(7) Penalties could be financial (fines; most common), corporal (death,
>exile) or legal (inability to stand for office, etc).
>(8) Our Constitution provides that if a trial is conducted in the Concilium
>Plebis there is a right of appeal to the Comitia Centuriata (Art. IV.2).
>(9) I agree strongly with those Citizens who have argued that we should "do
>it right". It's a matter of taking our Romanitas seriously. I really don't
>think that it's too much to expect that we should get the Comitiae set up
>so that we can handle this matter properly or legislate for better ways of
>doing it.
>Valete, M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

I wish to thank Saevola for a most enlightening post.

Valete, L Equitius Cincinnatus


Subject:	Re: Recreating the Republic
From:	"A. I. Crystallina" aicrys@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:35:01 -0600

From: legion6@--------

A lot of people came for the first part, the Religio Romana. I don't
think there's another group on the planet that is doing as much to
breathe new life into Roman Paganism. I take it that's what drew Crys
or Dex to Nova Roma; I don't know when they joined, but if it was near
the beginning that might actually have been the whole purpose of the
group back then. As the old splash page used to say (the one with
Augustus' statue), "...because the Gods of Olympus are calling..."

OH MY!!!! I HAVE been her a while!!! I remember NR BEFORE the Augustus pic. I joined this list first, just to see (well, I didn't have any sort of permanant address either) and emailed back and forth with my Pater for the longest. Heck, I remember the Great Vestial Debate!!

And, yes, I joined when NR was a openminded 'Roman Pagan' thingie (it's early -- 'thingie is the best word I can come up with at the moment).

Crys (confused, but what else is new?)


Subject:	Ave, re: Fannius
From:	Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 08:13:51 -0800

Ok...here I have formally brought my complaint against Fannius to you,
Praetor Urbanis. I have offered my services...that was all I did..
But, as per we have no existing procedure..I felt that, my offering
would be ok. I noted I was not Praetor Urbanis yet. But here, I am
now taking this to the official channel and would like him charged.
Please do what you see fit to make him to be held accountable for his
actions!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor
Praetor Urbanis Elect


Subject:	Re: NOVA ROMA LAW
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:13:55 -0500

Salvete Caie Druse et alii

From: dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)

You said-

Well, obviously we're not going to be trying murder and rape cases
here

I say-

I too doubt it, at least in the next half century or so; hopefully never.
But, dont forget that we are a micronation with sovereignty and territorial
aspirations. Our laws someday may have to cover much more in the future
than verbal attacks on the e-mail list....

------------------
You say-
and we don't need a comprehensive legal code

I say-
We'll need one eventually if our development reaches the heights for which
we all hope.

You say-
but I think we can
have a fair court system put into place and a reasonably good system
instituted that could handle any potential problems that come up. Short
of ever expelling a citizen there can be other measures implemented
including community service and even fining as is also done in some
cases within unions. A fine does not have to be excessive either and of
course a citizen possibly could have the option between community
service and paying a fine. A little more than an official reprimand and
far short of expulsion, I believe this could be an effective means of
controlling any future problems and yet further enhancing and endorsing
Nova Roma in the process.
Anyone else like to see laws in the future passed to that effect?
Just a passing thought.

I say-
Yes, I think that these are good thoughts all.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	re NOVA ROMA LAW
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:26:47 -0500

Salvete Amethystia Iunia et alii

-----Original Message-----
Fro--------. I. Crystallina aicrys@--------
To: '<a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>' <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 7:25 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: NOVA ROMA LAW

----------------
What about something like suspending him from the list (as he allegedly has
a problem holding his temper on it) or something like that. Does he have
asprations to office? Ban him from runnng for any office for, say 2 or 3
years.

The punishment has to be a learning expirence for the punishee (is that a
word?)
-------------------------

Whether it is or not, I know exactly what you mean :)
--------------------------

. Ban me from running for office and I will not care,I don't aspire to it.
Suspend me from the email list I abused for some period (I don't
know...maybe a day per letter and capital letters are 2 days or something)
and that would bother me.

You start ousting people for opening their mouths in (what I percieve as)
self-defense and no one will open their mouths. There would be less email,
sure, but hardly worth it, eh? And people remember. You oust someone the
people think defended himself and come next election you may find yourself a
plain ol civie and holding no office.

What do I know? Just an opinion.
-----------------------------

I think that everything that you have said has merit, and goes a long way to
dispelling the notion that Nova Roma must forever be powerless to do
anything to protect her citizenry, short of Senate-imposed exile.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Re: Why Try Fannius?
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:43:55 -0500

Salvete Marce Terenti et alii

> However, considering that Fannius was responding to the action of
>a now adjudged and exiled party; I for one would ask that the Senate
>simply table this matter.

I believe that the matter would be better handled, if it is not handled by
the Senate at all, but rather by a Praetor Urbanus.

When a citizen moves to defend one of the
>two pillars of this community (Religio Romana and Via Romana) against
>an openly illegal and direct assault on our Constitution, is it right
>and just to then turn on a patriot?

Sounds like part of a reasonable defense argument.

> If a law was infringed upon in his zeal to defend the Republic, is
>not his open apology to the community sufficient in and of itself?

Again, this would help in his defense at trial.

> For those who say a trial must be held so that the rule of law is
>to be maintained; I would ask how far are you willing to take this?

I am not sure what you mean here.

>Are you willing to see exiled someone whose action were a response to
>an attack on the Republic?

I have never advocated exiling Fannius. Nor have I heard anyone else
suggest it. I have heard many say that they are against exiling him.

> Is this really a trial which is being done to uphold the law, or
>is it, as some including myself, are beginning to feel an action
>which
>certain elements of this community are seeking a tit-for-tat
>reprisals?

Well, if you think that I am one of those certain elements, you are very
wrong. My interest in seeing Fannius tried, rather than being the subject
of a Senatus Consultum, is exactly that which I have presented to you. I
have no ulterior motive or personal feelings about the facts of the case.
Please elaborate, if you would, where you see a tit-for-tat game here.
>
> Therefore I ask those responsible for bringing this matter to a
>resolution that if you must introduce a motion to try Lucius Fannius
>for his alleged threat to LuciusMarconis Romanus, that the a motion
>to table sine die these charges be immediately introduced.

Part of the problem is that, due to our newness, noone is ever sure who is
responsible for what. I am of the opinion that the Senate should not touch
this case, other perhaps than to recommend that a Praetor Urbanus (or two of
them) take certain action, such as holding a hearing and/or establishing a
court.

>
> To all in this community I ask that we let this matter rest while
>the forms of legality be observed.

I too see no urgency that requires a trial and sentence tomorrow or the day
after. It is not advisable, however, that we indefinitely postpone
establishment of a court, preparation of the comitiae etc.

This will, I believe, better
>serve the interests of all than continuing down this road of growing
>suspicion. I would hope that both Christian and Pagans can learn
>from these events

I think now that you and I are talking about different things. The matter
of whether Fannius should be tried has little to do with Christians and
Pagans. It has to do with due process and the rule of law.

and that we can avoid future ones by acting swiftly
>as the Senate has done in clear and open cases and each of us
>individually make an attempt to understand each others beliefs and
>concerns.

I am in full agreement that we all should hear each other out without
vindictive reprisals.
>
> I remain Respectfully your fellow Citizen,
>
> Marcus Terentius Varro
>
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Trial venue was Re: Who will defend Fannius?
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:48:27 -0500

Salvete Luci Sergi et alii

>From: LSergAust@--------
>
>Offering only my humble (ha!) opinion, I think the chatroom would be an
>awful venue for a trial. I would think it would have to be here, with
>presentation of the charge, the evidence, the defense, followed by the
>votes of those appointed as jurors, or something along those lines.
>Everybody else would have to keep off the list until it was concluded. Or
>maybe we could start a new, temporary list for a trial? It shouldn't be
>happening all the time (I hope).

I agree about the chatroom, but, why does the trial have to be public?
Could a Praetor Urbanus not see to the selection of a jury? Sulla et
Scaevola, how was this done in Roma Antiqua, and do you have any plans on
how to do it here?

>
>It's too awkward to hold any meaningful discourse in the chatroom.
>
>L. Sergius Aust.
>
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Dexippus dolls Re: Leges Novae Romae was Re: Will anyone ever get a trial was Fan...
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:08:15 -0500

Warning: The following post contains sarcasm

Salvete Dexippe et alii

So I take it that you hereby waive your right to a trial before a jury of
your peers in the event that you are ever accused of a crime? :)

Just kidding. I would advocate "all this bureaucracy" for anyone here -
even you with all your @#$%### insensitive jokes and tenacious, repetitive,
argumentative posts against everything that I say...Why you...!

Oh, I feel so much better now. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to vent
some frustration there.

Dexippe, I think that I have an idea for a good business opportunity for
you: Dexippus dolls. The dolls could be made of a very malleable material,
perhaps borrowing some design elements of the obnoxious "Mad Head" toy that
was on the shelves a year or two ago. These could be used in a number of
ways, such as a physical outlet for frustration after reading a string of
stubborn posts from staunch, vocal members of Nova Roma's most conservative
wing. I welcome your feedback, however, as to other ways in which the dolls
could be used.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>Ok...here's my two cents...
>
>Does he need a trial? He violated the constitution by threatening physical
>harm to citizens.
>
>Can't the Senate just act?
>
>Oh the beuracracy!
>


Subject:	Re: Recreating the Republic
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:12:11 -0500

Salvete Luci Sergi et Damiane Luciane et alii

I like both of you and wish that you would NOT do this to each other,
yourselves, and me.

If one of you leaves, it will be a loss for all of us. Please dont do that.

While there are fragments of a real debate here, it has devolved into
something else. Pleae recognize that.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
-----Original Message-----
From: Dexippus@-------- Dexippus@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 12:48 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Recreating the Republic

>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In --------ss--------d-------- 12/30/98 9:47:42 PM EST, LSergAust@-------- writes:
>
><< Again, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus, you try to pick a fight with me by
> pretending that the founding documents say something other than what they
> plainly say. >>
>
>No, my friend...it is you who are pretending that the founding documents
say
>something other than what they say. But hey...if you want to pretend this
>isn't a pagan organization, go right ahead. Everyone needs to live a
fantasy
>every now and then...
>
>
><>
>
>Well...you're right there...I DON'T LIKE YOU! I told you in a private
e-mail
>back during the Byzantine/Roman debate that I don't like you and that we
will
>probably never see eye to eye on this list and I will answer all your
>misleading posts! You have shown yourself unworthy of my support or
>befriendmanship. For insults you delivered unto me during that past debate
>which you refused to offer an apology for....thus showing your true
cowardly
>colors.
>
><<I've been making an effort to nicely ignore your remarks, but the effort
>is tiring. So in the future I shall simply ignore your posts. I find it
>amusing that you disagree with me and then you affirm what I said. But
>your basic premise is so transparently inaccurate that it cannot stand
>unanswered. >>
>
>Oh cut the bullshit you circle-talking ignoramous! Fine...ignore my
>posts..you won't be able to get around them since so many other citizens
will
>cut and paste to either support or offer further suggestions to remarks I
>make. Stop acting like a total jack-ass and get a life!
>
><<Obviously YOU WISH for this to be a "pagan organization" but
>that is not what the founding documents say it is. This is a ROMAN
>organization, intended to revive ROMAN culture, ROMAN virtues, and ROMAN
>religion.>>
>
>Well..first of all, get the order right: "Nova Roma is dedicated to the
>restoration of CLASSICAL ROMAN RELIGION, CULTURE, AND VIRTUES".
>
>Now there is only one way to solve this debate. Oh Senators...Oh
Consuls...Oh
>Founders (you know who you are). Can I please finally get some public
>clarification on the purpose and position of Nova Roma? If we are a Pagan
>Organization as I maintain, and willingfully welcome those of other faiths,
>then please state so and let the chips fall where they may! Or if we are
not
>a Pagan Organization and the Religio is just a "nice to have" as
Australicanus
>believes, then please state so as well, and let the chips fall the other
way.
>
>I'm tired of this pussy-footing around our identity!
>
><<Only YOU seem to insist on continuing to quarrel this
>way.>>
>
>Yeah...whatever...it was your post that I responded to....Go rotate your
>tires.
>
>--Dexippus
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject:	Re: Fannius: Let's Do this the Republican Roman Way [long post]
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:49:46 -0500

Salvete Marce Muci et alii

Thank you for this information. Your post has clarified a lot for me. Even
if we must alter certain practices to make them feasible in our context
here, we should do so only after careful review of Roma Antiqua's forms, and
the less we alter the better.

I urge the Senate and incoming magistrates to consider this information
carefully, and especially

. IT IS NOW
>A MATTER OF URGENCY THAT THE CENSORS SHOULD ASSIGN CENTURIES AND TRIBES SO
>THAT THE COMITIAE/ CONCILIUM PLEBIS CAN BE CONSTITUTED.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

>From: Mike Ma--------r MikeMa--------r@--------
>
>Salvete Omnes!
>
---good information deleted for space, but, if you didn't read it, you
missed something worthwhile!----


Subject:	Re: Toga
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:30:01 -0500

Salvete Marce Minuci et alii

From: jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------br>
Thank you very much for this information!

Do you have any references for stripes on togae worn earlier, during the
Repubic, in civilian contexts?

Actually, I am surprised to read that military tribunes would have worn
togae at all. Does this mean that they packed togae throughout campaigns?
I would have thought that they'd leave their togae in Italia, or wherever
they called home in later days, and take just their saga (or whatever
military cloaks were called).

This is interesting stuff!

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus--------------------------
I quote from Connelly's "Greece and Rome at War";

" Above the centuriate was a group of semi-professional officers. The
Tribunes came first. There were six of them to an Empire Legion.
Technically they were al "equites" but the senior ranking "Tribunas
Laticlavius" wore the broad band (purple) which showed that he was
accepted as a candidate for Senate; (he would be under the age of 25 the
minimum age for entering the Senate as "Quaestor"); the other five
Tribunus Angusticlavii wore the narrow purple band and would have had
some experience in the army, as a prefect or as a senior magistrate of
his town."

Although the above paragraph explains the Broad Purple Stripe I am left
wondering what the Narrow Purple Stripe signified.

Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

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Subject:	Re: Ave, re: Fannius
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:12:43 -0500

Salvete, L Cornelius et Omnes Quirites
>
>Ok...here I have formally brought my complaint against Fannius to you,
>Praetor Urbanis.

The 'you' here refers to L Equtius Cincinnatus as I was also sent this
privately (so I got two copies in the box).

> I have offered my services...that was all I did..
>But, as per we have no existing procedure..I felt that, my offering
>would be ok. I noted I was not Praetor Urbanis yet. But here, I am
>now taking this to the official channel and would like him charged.

Well... What is the charge? Is this a public offense you are bringing as a
public official or are you bringing a private charge on behalf of a citizen?
Or is this some private grievance you are making on your own behalf?
Who is the Defendant? Who is the Plaintiff?

>Please do what you see fit to make him to be held accountable for his
>actions!
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor

Come on be accurate. I thought you were a legal student. Provide me with
some information.

Vale, L Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus


Subject:	Re: Religio Subscribe
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:42:42 -0800

Pythia!
WHERE Do you post your messages?????
I know it is NOT yet Friday in Boston! It is only 09:40 (a.m.)
in California.

Yours in everpresent Confusion,
Ericius.

oh yes

************HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! anyway

Subject:
[novaroma] Re: Religio Subscribe

*>*>
Date: <*<*
*>*> Fri, 01 Jan 1999 10:02:17 +0000 <*<*

From:
Pythia kingan@--------
Reply-To:
<a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
To:
<a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>


Subject:	Reinae et Ericio de libris
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:08:14 -0500

Salvete Reina et Erici et alii

As promised, I'll provide herein some comments on books that I have recently
read or am reading.

For general narrative of Roman history from the early Republic all the way
to the bitter end, I can recommend "Roman Realities" by Finley Hooper, 1979,
Wayne State University Press. It has a "nice" picture of a bust of
Caracalla on the front. This book covered a hell of a lot of history, and,
while it does not go to the depth desired for researching your own work on
some particular figure in history or a specific aspect of Roman life at any
given time, it gives the big picture in a very readable informative way.
ISBN = 0-8143-1593-3

I am still not done with the "Making of the Roman Army" by L. Keppie,
available in the Nova Roma bookstore. I knew close to nothing about the
inner workings of the Roman army before reading the book (except for bits
and pieces that I took from reading Caesar and discussing De Gallico Bello a
long time ago), and so the book is helping me to learn more. I cannot say
that I have the fondest of feelings for it, however. Most of the book is
dedicated to post-republican armies (understandable but disappointing).
There is a long chapter called "Marius' Mules" dealing with late republican
Roman armies; in that chapter, Keppie recites every change in the late
republican Roman army, such as the movement from alae to cohortes as
tactical units, in reference to the chronology of Marius' commands. His
whole point is to deconstruct and invalidate the notion that most of the
changes are attributable to Marius, and yet, his conclusions tend to sound
like this: "by the end of Marius' time, this change had taken place, but,
it might or might not have been his idea". I am left wondering, why he
bothered to include Marius' name in the title of the chapter, and why did he
not offer fresh theories on these innovations and who devised them.

Finally, I'll be reading at some point a translation of De Gallico Bello
called "Caesar: The Gallic War" translated by Carolyn Hammond, 1996, Oxford
University Press, ISBN = 0-19-283120-8. I cannot recommend it yet, except
to say that the openning paragraph sounds fresher, and it has a longer
introduction, than the Penguin Classics volume.

My plan is to get a hold of the Latin text, and read some bit of the
original, then the corresponding bit of the translation, and so on.

Does anyone want to join me in this exercise? We could have a discussion on
each part once a week or something.

But dont get too excited too soon. I shall not bother with this until I
finish translating the Constitution, which aint gonna happen in less than 6
weeks, maybe more.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Vale MMDCCLI a.u.c.
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:42:24 -0800

Salve MMDCLII a.u.c.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Omnes.

Ericius.


Subject:	Crucifixion
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:50:21 -0800

Q. Fabius wrote:

> In --------ss--------d-------- 12/30/98 9:12:18 PM P--------ic St--------rd Time, Dexippus@--------
> writes:
>
> << Erecting another cross for crucifixion...don't panic christians, it was a
> popular Roman means of execution.
>
> Which was taken from the Carthaginians. Romans always adopt the best.
>
> Q Fabius

The Carthaginians being Punic = Philistine = Palestine. It came a long way Baby!

C. Aelius Ericius
Prepropraetor ad Californiam Provinciam


Subject:	Some questions from me
From:	"A. I. Crystallina" aicrys@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:36:04 -0600

Salvete,

In talking about my uncles death and what they plan to 'do with him' with my mom, I couldn't help but wonder what the Romans did with themselves when they died. Burial? Cremation?

My uncle will likely be cremated (he never said one way or another), but after that no one knows what to do with his ashes. I think my mom has some sort of plans for disposal, as she is planning to look into the laws regarding the scattering of ashes in Illinois. She has decided to be cremated (she dosen't trust anybody involved with cemetaries and morturaries). I guess that's what I want done.

I know wills go to the Vestals (I'm still working on it). But I don't know about bodies or ashes or anything. The few relatives I am even remotely close to are all around my uncles age (my mom is the youngest at 69), and as bad as it sounds, I like to think that they will all die before I do. Besides the kids, there isn't anyone really to carry out my wishes (perhaps someday, but not today).

So, what did they do?

Crys (having sorta depressing thoughts these days)<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Iunia Crystallina (10/13/68)
Prima Iunia Terrelina (3/31/97)
Lapis Stone (due mid-Feb)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>


Subject:	Gratitude
From:	"A. I. Crystallina" aicrys@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:49:52 -0600

Salvete all,

I wanted to express my thanks for the kind thoughts and words I have recieved in regards to my uncles death. Yesterday was probably the worst day I have had in some months and having friends to help see me through has meant a great deal. I'm still upset, but the pain is a bit less today than yesterday and tomorrow will be less still. I'm afraid I am not as good as the rest of my family at shutting down and just doing what needs to be done and moving on (I can sometimes fake it, but it's not something I can do often -- shock usually helps). I m not hysterical, but I am not 100% cheerful either. I guess this is mourning. I haven't done as much as I should have with that (this is my 4th death, rd of a relative; my biologicl mother when I was 8, then Lapis' twin now my uncle), but I do the best I can. Guess that's really all I can do.

I wish I could reply to all the responses to me personally, but I just don't have the energy. Please don't feel that I am ungrateful, because I am far from that.

Thank you again and Valete --

Crys (Amethystia Iunia Crystallina)<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Amethystia Iunia Crystallina (10/13/68)
Prima Iunia Terrelina (3/31/97)
Lapis Stone (due mid-Feb)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/amethyst.htm</a>


Subject:	Re: Last gasp of L.M.R.
From:
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:30:08 EST

In a message dated 98-12-31 07:42:52 EST, you write:

<< I have unsubbed Lucius Marconius Romanus from the list. >>

"And the kindgom was at peace once more!"

---Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Recreating the Republic
From:
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:28:45 EST

In a message dated 98-12-31 07:10:58 EST, you write:

<< I was asked some time ago by one of our Citizens what the purpose of
Nova Roma is. Now that the Citizen body as a whole has taken up the
question, I would like to share my understanding of the matter--as I,
too, keep hearing different stories, some more inclusive than others,
and would like some public official comment on the matter. >> etc.

Fimbria,

I will applaud you on a well questioned and well written post.

The history of Nova Roma as I have been told is that it was started as, has
been, and will always be a Roman Pagan Organization dedicated to the
Restoration of Classical Roman Religion, Culture, and Virtues.

It was founded by Roman Pagans for this purpose. Understanding the ancient
Romans, we know that there was no division between the Religion, the Culture,
and the Virtues. It was all a part of being "Roman".

This is not so much the case today. Our modern society, especially here in
the States, allows individuals to pick apart ideals, and customs. In terms of
Ancient Roman interest, some people are more drawn to the religion, while some
are more drawn to the military aspects, while some are more drawn to the
virtues, etc.

So, it is evident that it is in Nova Roma's best interest to open it's doors
to non-Pagans and welcome them as equals. But the underlying notion is the
revival of the Classical Roman Pagan Religion which we have termed the Religio
Romana.

If I may offer an example...the Human Rights Campaign is a political
organization based in Washington, DC with aims at promoting equal rights for
Gays, Lesbians, Bi-Sexuals, and Transgendered people. (I'm using HRC as an
example because I am a member). Now, the main purpose of HRC is to further
the cause of equal rights for GLBT people, however, you don't have to be gay,
lesbian, bi-sexual, or transgendered to join. Heterosexual people who are
sympathetic to the cause are more than welcome to join us and no one thinks
less of them for being straight. However, it is a gay founded, gay run, gay
focused organization and always will be.

I would still like our founders, senate, and consuls to publically settle this
debate with a straight forward answer as I feel it still divides us to this
day and will continue to do so until it goes answered in a public forum and
recorded for future posterity.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Dexippus dolls Re: Leges Novae Romae was Re: Will anyone ever ...
From:
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:43:17 EST

In a message dated 98-12-31 11:15:55 EST, you write:

<< So I take it that you hereby waive your right to a trial before a jury of
your peers in the event that you are ever accused of a crime? :) >>

I would trust the judgement of my Senate and the people who know and love me
in this organization.

<<Just kidding. I would advocate "all this bureaucracy" for anyone here -
even you with all your @#$%### insensitive jokes and tenacious, repetitive,
argumentative posts against everything that I say...>>

Oh, ok...so you're trying to play the "good guy" here, Merullus. My I suggest
a nice warm enema to help you deal with my "insenstitive jokes" and a good
stiff drink. Lighten up, paisan! And I don't argue every post you make, only
the ones I disagree with. I'm sorry that your ego can't deal with that. Your
problem...not mine...

<<Oh, I feel so much better now. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to vent
some frustration there.>>

Hey...no problem...we all need to do it every now and then. Try it more
often...you'll feel better.

<<Dexippe, I think that I have an idea for a good business opportunity for
you: Dexippus dolls. The dolls could be made of a very malleable material,
perhaps borrowing some design elements of the obnoxious "Mad Head" toy that
was on the shelves a year or two ago. These could be used in a number of
ways, such as a physical outlet for frustration after reading a string of
stubborn posts from staunch, vocal members of Nova Roma's most conservative
wing. I welcome your feedback, however, as to other ways in which the dolls
could be used.>>

Actually the dolls are in planning as we type. Every one will want one next
year for Saturnalia! Hell...first it was Cabbage Patch Dolls...then Tickle Me
Elmo...then Flirbies! NOW IT'S TIME FOR MALIBU DEXIPPUS! Pull my string and
I'll curse you out 'till next week!!!!!!!!! LOL

--Dexippus (just call me the Neo-Pagan-Neo-Nazi...conservative? HA!)

<<Merullus, overall I like you. Even though we don't see eye to eye on all
occassions...but hey, that's life and that's what keeps it interesting. Feel
free to match my whits anyday, sweetie...I can always use the practice!>>>


Subject:	Re: Recreating the Republic
From:
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:46:22 EST

In a message dated 98-12-31 11:15:59 EST, you write:

<< I like both of you and wish that you would NOT do this to each other,
yourselves, and me.

If one of you leaves, it will be a loss for all of us. Please dont do that.

While there are fragments of a real debate here, it has devolved into
something else. Pleae recognize that. >>

I do recognize that. But I maintain that any public post directed towards me
will be answered with a public rebuttal. Australicanus could have e-mailed me
personally but chose to snap at me in a public forum. He got it back. Said
and done.

This organization does not need a "yes man". We are all here to offer up our
individual opinions and suggestions. And while they may get heated at times,
there's no reason to publically address someone on this list with such tone.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Some questions from me
From:	Mike Ma--------r MikeMa--------r@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:30:03 -0500

Crystallina wrote:

>...I couldn't help but wonder what the Romans did with themselves
>when they died. Burial? Cremation?

Cremation was normal until well into the Empire, when they started to bury
bodies. But it wasn't like modern cremation - the fire wasn't that hot &
bones were left over and buried afterwards. They put up more or less
elaborate tombstones and monuments - even in remote areas like the
Hadrian's wall garrisons; there are some wonderful epitaphs. Customs
varied, through; the Egyptians went on making mummies through the Roman
period.
But all this had to be done outside the cities; the law prohibited
burial or cremation within city walls. The Christian practice of burial in
churches and churchyards didn't start till the 7th or 8th century CE, well
after the fall of the Western Empire.

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister


Subject:	Re: Marconius'Catholic post
From:	Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:49:06 -0500

At 11:11 29/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
>> Let us not forget about our DUTIES to our Gods and their protection and
>>the honor that they deserve.
>>
>I do not think that the Gods are in any danger from Marconius. It is the
>sensibilities of Nova Roman citizens that were damaged, but probably not the
>Gods themselves, since they are immortal and above petty human attack. The
>Constitution does acknowledge that the honoring of the Gods, the Religio
>Romana, must be maintained and protected.
I believe that there are certain duties that we must uphold in order to
keep what is sacred to us. What I meant by protection did not in any way
mean that the Gods are not able to fend for themselves, but if I recall
correctly there was an event in history when Constantine embraced
Christianity and thereafter for the next thousand plus years, pagans were
forcefully converted by threat of death and much of the ancient knowledge
that we once held sacred has been forever cast in shadow, possibly never to
be retrieved. From what I've gathered from the Nova Roma site is that the
intention of the founders of this group was to re-establish the Religio
Romana, including the long-term goal of a number of actual physical
locations such as temples. In order for such a goal to met, Merulle, I
believe that it is important for us to "protect" our Gods by protecting our
religious freedom, which includes the right to exile any active
anti-paganists from this organization. Don't hold the idea "that it could
never happen to me (or us)" when I say that if we aren't careful, this
group could be overrun with anti-paganists who wish to undermine our goals.
I don't want all the research and knowledge that we (including pagans not
in this organization) have rediscovered to be cast once again in shadow,
labeled as "evil" and "devilry." Trust me, it can happen, especially in a
larger organization that is so widespread and open to the public as this one.
Let me tell you a story, Merulle. During my last year as an undergraduate,
a group of people I knew got together and invited me to join in a new
university organization they were putting together called, "The "Spirit of
the Oak." It was the first pagan organization on our campus. I took a very
active role in its inception and one thing we had decided was very
important was keeping our meeting times and locations secret. Our officers
accepted phone calls or email from any part interested in attending the
meeting. This was to prevent a massive "visitation" from any of the
university's very active Christian groups. We didn't limit our numbers to
"pagans," but opened our meetings to people of all religions who were
interested in paganism. Prior to one meeting, we were warned that we were
going to have a couple of "Christian" visitors who were merely interested
in seeing what we were all about. They were from the organization called,
"Campus Crusade for Christ." I know it's a nationwide organization which
many of you perhaps know from your college days. Well, the members of this
organization are fundementalists and very active in proselytization and
condemning or attempting to break down organizations which they conider to
be "the work of the Devil." Our two visitors were not innocently attending
our meeting. They even had the audacity to write down the names and
personal information of the members present that day, as we sent around a
roll sheet to be filled out. One of them take the roll sheet aside and
actually copied all the information down. I asked her after the meeting to
scratch my name out of her notebook, which she did without question, and I
appreciated it. What happened within the next few weeks was a nightmare for
my group. See, fundamentalists generally network very well. They had
meetings about our new organization and went over options they had to
attempt to break up the "Satan's work." A sympathizer had received a mass
email from the one Christian who had been to our meeting. She copied the
message, which was shown to us at our next meeting. In essence it stated
that the Devil was doing work on our campus, and that "we should all pray
against this new organization which is nothing more than the work of the
Devil himself!" We had to begin keeping our meeting locations and times
even more private, at times at the house of the directing professor
herself. Otherwise we'd have a large group of fundementalist, Campus
Crusaders for Christ chanting at our doors weilding large crosses (really!
They do that!). These are the same people who would stand in our oak grove
on campus and preach the word to us and tell us all how we'd burn in hell
if we didn't accept Jesus. These are the same people who would bring their
children onto campus in groups of two, one weilding a very large cross
while the other handed out tracts and asks if we want to know Jesus (much
like we saw at Heritage Days and Haunted Happenings during our pagan
parades, Flavia. I know you understand what I'm speaking of). <laugh> It's
kind of funny if you think about it. It's like something out of an old
movie, but it was happening for real. That organization made things very
difficult for my little group, and it all began once they infiltrated our
ranks. Tell me all you strategically oriented Romans, particularly those
who study military history, what usually happens when the ranks are
infiltrated?
Now, Merulle, this is why I feel it's important that we not forget about
our duties to our Gods and their protection and the honor that they deserve.

>I think that the plea to heed our laws is a very sound one. If we do not
>establish a court and put Marconius on trial, why should we, will we even be
>able to do so, later when someone else is accused of a different violation?
Exactly. What we need to do right now is set a precedent. Let's think
about the U.S. right now, and Clinton's purgery. If we let him get away
with it, we set a precedent for future presidents and ourselves.
Personally, I have been happy with Clinton in office, but this purgery
thing has really bothered me, and I think he needs to be punished for it as
anyone else would but more severely since he's supposed to be a leader of
our country, an outstanding citizen, and one who upholds our standards and
laws. We're about to enter into difficult times, amices. We have to bond
together in strength and unity so as not to lose that which is precious to
us. Remember that age old saying that's not just words. It actually means
something... "United we stand, divided we fall, all for one and one for all!"

Valete and Bright Blessings to you all,
Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Re: An end to Marconius & presents
From:	Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:50:49 -0500

At 10:17 29/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
>Well, Claudia, I doubt that you would find what I got any more interesting
>than Marconius. Let's test my theory:
>
>- 2 different translations of De Gallico Bello
>- An excellent frying pan
>- A decent snow shovel
>- Several mulberry scented candles
>- Pumpkin bread
>- Chocolate cream pie
>- Fudge
>- Cracker & spicy gouda spread snack kit
>- Some cash
>- A gift certificate or two
>
>OK, I am ready to field questions from you and other interested citizens on
>any of the above items. Anyone? Anyone?
Tell me more about this chocolate cream pie... mmmm.

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Re: Recreating the Republic
From:	dean6886@-------- (Dean Troy)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:47:00 -0600 (CST)

Actually Dex I don't think its necessary to draw the line between
black and white and state a one true purpose of Nova Roma. All are
welcome yes but as long as noone interferes or tampers with the growth
of the Religio Romana or vice versa would try to expel citizens by hook
or crook for being let's say just here to make friends and have an
interest in micronationalism mixed with Roman culture - I don't think we
have a problem. We are all enhancing Nova Roma by enthusiastically
establishing a broad base within Nova Roma.
I think this is where the concern is coming from is it not? -- The
idea of being outnumbered and then displaced by a wider non-pagan
community in Nova Roma changing the organization into something entirely
different in time. I personally don't beleive that will be te case as
few people that aren't open minded enough to accept a path other than
their own- be it Christian, Moslem, etc. would join an organization that
promotes in every way the total revitilization of the Religio Romana.
The few people who would come here to destroy it or thwart it have a way
of making themselves noticed and weeding themselves out- like Mr.
Marconi.
I believe that Nova Roma can have that renewed energy it needs in
the reformation of the Religio Romana ( give it time) and that we can
have one of the greatest resources in the world eventually on Roman
history, culture, archeology, and a multitude of other assorted studies.
We can also have one of the best places for those recreationist
legionaires as a place for support.
I think it is possible to not only have temples and groves and
religious study groups but for us to sponsor projects of archeological
study and maybe even have some sort of special resource library and any
other imaginable project that could be foreseeable 10, 20 or even 50
years from now. That's why we are a nation vs. just being a religious
organization. Any successes are all our successes really. This was all
just my opinion but in sum I don't believe a definition of Nova Roma as
you want is really necessary- I think it gives us all what we want from
it.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	Re: Re Fannius: Let's Do this the Republican Roman Way [long post]
From:	Mike Ma--------r MikeMa--------r@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:53:32 -0500

I wrote (among other things)

>>In the later Republic it would be a "Quaestio" or 'jury' court,
>>presided over by the Praetor.

and Cincinnatus responded (among other things)

>Or his appointed judge.<

Actually, the single judge appointed by the Praetor (singulus iudex) was
only used in civil litigation, not crime. Kelly's book on litigation in the
later Republic (I don't have the book itself or the title to hand) suggests
that the singulus iudex was originally like an arbitrator chosen by the
parties, while if D wasn't willing to play ball P would have to go to a
Comitia.

Sulla wrote

>Ok...here I have formally brought my complaint against Fannius to you,
>Praetor Urbanis. I have offered my services...that was all I did..
>But, as per we have no existing procedure..I felt that, my offering
>would be ok. I noted I was not Praetor Urbanis yet. But here, I am
>now taking this to the official channel and would like him charged.

I'm sorry, Sulla, but in less than 24 hours time you will be one of the
responsible judges (unless I'm totally off the mark on when new magistrates
take over their duties!). So someone else is going to have to prosecute.
"NEMO IUDEX IN CAUSA SUA" - noone can be judge in his own cause - is an
elementary legal principle which we inherited from Rome ... :)

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister


Subject:	Re: Toga
From:	jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:22:01 -0500 (EST)

In respose to your question about Tribunes and togae, I am not sure
about whether they took togae on campaign as that is not covered, but It
must be said that Tribunes had a generous baggage allotment and men
detailed from the legion to erect and take down their tents. I believe
these same men also drove the wagons and carts on which the tribune's
equipment was loaded.

Further comments on the Toga:

"The toga was the formal outer garment of the Roman malecitizen and also
his shroud. Originally only a toga wa worn, but later it was worn as an
outdoor garment ver a tunic. The toga was an expensive, hevy garment o
fine natural wool and required frequent cleaning by the fuller. It was
rouhly semi-circular in shape, about 5.5m (18 feet) wide and 2.1m (7
feet) deep.It had to be draped in a complicated manner aroundthe body
and several emperors had to issue decrees to enforce it's use on public
occasions.The oldest representations date to thelate republic and depict
the "toga exigua", ashort simple oga. Toward the end of the Republic it
became more complex with a "sinus" and a "umbo." Theesinus consisted
of the drapes which fell from the left shoulder to the right thigh as
apocket and could be brought up over theright shoulder forming a sling.
The umbo was a projecting massof folds in front of the body, that could
be pulled up to form a hood.

The toga showd differences in social order. The "toga praetexta
(bordered toga), had a purple stripe and was worn by curule magistrates.
It was also worn by boys until theage of about 15 or 16 when they
assumed the plain "tga virilis" (man's toga). The togas for senators
had a broad purple stripe (latus clavus); for equestrians a narrow
purple stripe (clavus angustus); emperors' togas were entirely purple.

A "toga candida" (white toga) was worn by candidates for office, the
togas made whiter by being rubbed with chalk. A "toga pulla" was of
natural black wool and was worn at funerals.

In regard to tribunes clothing;

Under Tunics it reads Senators wore tunics wit a broad purple stripe and
equestrians with a narrow purple stripe running from the shoulder to the
hem front and back.

Reference:

Handbook to Life In Ancient Rome--Lesley Adkins and Roy Adkins-Facts On
File; N.Y.-NY
--1994.

A last comment about togas on campagn; I do not see it as imposible that
the Legion Legate and his senior officers would be required to wear the
toga on state occasions receiving honored personages or participating in
religious rituals or festivals.

Very Respectfully

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: I don't CARE how the devout react
From:	Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:52:44 -0500

At 12:38 29/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>From: Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
> I wonder if the TradCath list would be happy if I'd go over there
>and start leaving posts that promote the worship of Vesta as the one true
>god? If I feel that way, I'd probably have no business on that list. and
I think this is the main problem we're having here. This is an obviously
pagan group which has room for people of non-pagan backgrounds, but under
the agreement that they do not defame paganism. This is not a difficult
concept to understand, and we have many wonderful non-pagans on this list
who are avid participants, and they seem to understand this concept quite
well, and voila! We all get along great. Yay! So what's the deal with these
other people? If they can't deal with the way things are here, then they
should *exent*.

> I would also suggest that we stop tiptoeing around the oh-so-fragile
>sensibilities of these people.
I have to agree with you, Flavia. And I truly think that the majority of
our jokes are unoffensive. And by all means, if I EVER say anything that is
construed as offensive to *any* citizen of this group, just tell me. I'll
either apologize or defend my position, but I like to know if I ever
overstep my boundaries, because my intentions are never to harm someone's
feelings. K?

> As a matter of record, I still feel (and I'm sure Dex will back me
>up) that the Pope's robes would look much better on Dex and that big ring
>would look much better on me. And as a personal crusade, but not Nova
>Roma's, I would love to demand that the Vatican restore to the survivors and
>heirs the art they got from the Nazis, who looted it from the Jews. To any
>Pagan organization willing to undertake the maintenance of it, they can also
>return the statutes of Roman gods that they looted from the ruins of Roman
>temples and that now repose in the Vatican Museum where no one is allowed to
>lay sacrifices or burn incense before them; the Pantheon, which was built
>for the worship of Roman gods and has been desecrated; and the property on
>the Vatican Hill.
>
> Title to any of the above items that the current Pope would like to
>divest the Church of (except the looted art) can be sent directly to me,
>probably via FedEx.
I don't think she's joking, Merulle, so does this still count?

Flavia's fingers have typed some wise words. Remember to honor our Chief
Vestal Virgin :-)

Valete,
Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Re: Gimmee
From:	m--------oon m--------oon@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:48:48 -0500

Diana/Orbianna wrote:
> >
> > Title to any of the above items that the current Pope would like to
> >divest the Church of (except the looted art) can be sent directly to me,
> >probably via FedEx.
> I don't think she's joking, Merulle, so does this still count?
>
I want that STUFF and I want it NOW.

-- FC


Subject:	Re: Gratitude
From:	jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:52:19 -0500 (EST)

Mistress Crys;

It is not unknown to wait for two--three months before answering
messages of condolance. ou have plenty of time and know that your
friends support you during this tme of your need. I understand that you
don't feel up to snuff but here is an idea that may have some
signifigance for you. Make a file on your computer and write into the
file everything that you can remember about your uncle who he was, what
he did, where he went, why you thought he was a great guy. Over the
years I have several similar notebooks about my Dad. The exercise sure
saved me a lot of grief and in a very small way this effort has allowed
me to refresh my memories of my father, and come to know him better than
when he was alive.

Be at peace My Lady:

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Re Fannius: Let's Do this the Republican Roman Way [long post]
From:
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:54:14 -0500

Salvete, M. Mucius Scaevola Magister et Omnes Quirites
>
>I wrote (among other things)
>>>In the later Republic it would be a "Quaestio" or 'jury' court,
>>>presided over by the Praetor.
>
>and Cincinnatus responded (among other things)
>>Or his appointed judge.<
>
>Actually, the single judge appointed by the Praetor (singulus iudex) was
>only used in civil litigation, not crime. Kelly's book on litigation in the
>later Republic (I don't have the book itself or the title to hand) suggests
>that the singulus iudex was originally like an arbitrator chosen by the
>parties, while if D wasn't willing to play ball P would have to go to a
>Comitia.
>
Good, thank you for clearing that point up for me!

>Sulla wrote
>
>>Ok...here I have formally brought my complaint against Fannius to you,
>>Praetor Urbanis. I have offered my services...that was all I did..
>>But, as per we have no existing procedure..I felt that, my offering
>>would be ok. I noted I was not Praetor Urbanis yet. But here, I am
>>now taking this to the official channel and would like him charged.
>
>I'm sorry, Sulla, but in less than 24 hours time you will be one of the
>responsible judges (unless I'm totally off the mark on when new magistrates
>take over their duties!). So someone else is going to have to prosecute.
>"NEMO IUDEX IN CAUSA SUA" - noone can be judge in his own cause - is an
>elementary legal principle which we inherited from Rome ... :)
>
Right now I am investigating this with the assistance of Flavia Claudia
Juliana
and we should be able to bring forth a decision to the satisfaction of all!
[Right, as if that were possible :-) ]

Valete, L Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus


Subject:	Re: Humor and anger
From:	Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:02:49 -0500

At 13:06 29/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>From: Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
> Holy cats, getting on your list sounds tougher than getting access
>to the X-Files.
> sign me up.
Holy cats? Where? I've never heard that term used before. That's pretty
nifty, because I'm rather fond of cats...

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Re: Revocation of citizenship was Re: Marconius vs.Fannius (wh...
From:	Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:14:29 -0500

At 13:17 29/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>I beg to differ! This is a national emergency! For once again Barbarians
>have infultrated our midsts! First on the Message Board...then in the Chat
>Room...now on the OneList! We do need to take immediate action to hinder the
>further deterioration of our Republic. Marconius has shown himself to be no
>friend of Rome, the Roman People, or the Roman State! Anything short of
>revocation is placating those who share his vision and ideals and an invite
>for others to take up the slack!
Dex is right. This is not something we should take lightly. Remember, it
sets a precedent for future action. If I have read my history correctly, I
believe a number of people just stood back and let Hitler do his thing
thinking it would never go very far, that is until he finally sent people
to come and take them away too. We have to nip this thing in the bud, so
this doesn't happen again, or if it should that we are prepared to deal
with it as efficiently as possible. (Say, perhaps we should consider hiring
cyber goons).

Ta Ta
Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Re: An end to Marconius
From:	Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:16:22 -0500

At 13:18 29/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>In a message dated 98-12-28 19:05:58 EST, you write:
>
><< And as long as we're getting real...when was the last time we heard from
> Marconius, relative to the many, many posts about him? He seems to have
> gone into self-exile, perhaps back to the TradCaths for more religious
> tracts, I don't know. But he hasn't been here, and until he does show up
> -- if he ever does -- let's just drop the entire thing. The Senate is
> doing it's job and so will the rest of the new magistrates who will be
> taking office. >>
>
>
>I would agree but I do not think action should wait until Marconius returns
>from his silence. Immediate action is needed by the Senate.
Again Dex is right, except that I wouldn't agree to begin with. Immediate
(or as soon as possible) action needs to be taken to remedy this situation.
We should not just let it go. Precedent, precedent.

Valete,
Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Re: Yule Celebrations(reports from around the globe)
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:20:36 -0500

At 13:29 29/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>From: Dexippus@--------
>Ah yes...Patricia Telesco. Now this book is quite enjoyable and the recipes
>are quite delicious.
>
>However...her other book "Urban Pagan" has much to be desired. Hey, I don't
>know what she was smoking when she suggested one may charge an athame by
>placing it in the microwave oven! Now, how's that for invoking the Fire
>Element....BOOM!
No way! She did NOT! <laugh> Did she? I didn't read that book. However, "a
Victorian Grimoire" is quite fascinating. I also got "365 Goddess" as a
Yule gift for Dennis. It's a neat little book too. Did I ever tell you that
P. Telesco was initiated into his coven? It's was way before Dennis's time
however. Which reminds me, we still need to talk...

Vale,
Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Re: Temple of Mars
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:13:21 -0800 (PST)

To Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Flamen Martialis et Consul elect, et alii


Subject:	Salve iterum.
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:13:14 -0800 (PST)

To C. Aelius Ericius, Praetor ad Californiam Provinciam, et alii


Subject:	Re: Web Sites
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:13:41 -0800 (PST)

To Flavius Vedius Germanicus, Senator


Subject:	Re: Re Fannius: Let's Do this the Republican Roman Way [long post]
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:15:46 -0800

Salve, M. Mucius Scaevola Magister!

I want to thank you for your contribution. Hopefully it will be
used as a map for this tortuous boggy trail we seem to be heading
along. You are going to be an excellent Praetor Urbanis in this
coming year and I pray that the Gods grant you the strength and
endurance that you will need in the next twelve months.

I ask the citizens and magistrates of Nova Roma to follow
Scaevola Magister's advice and in this matter. Whether the
Fannius affair is pursued or not, Magister has pointed out a
number of jobs that have to get done, and done soon. Since these
jobs have to do with Roman Law they are immensely suitable us to
concentrate on them.

Vale.

C. Aelius Ericius
Praetor ad Californiam Provinciam
Pontiff


Subject:	Re: Toga
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:16:12 EST

In a message dated 12/31/98 3:22:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jmath669642reng@-------- --------es:

<< A last comment about togas on campaign; I do not see it as impossible that
the Legion Legate and his senior officers would be required to wear the
toga on state occasions receiving honored personages or participating in
religious rituals or festivals. >>
Salve!
Caesar certainly did. On many occasions in meeting with foreign dignitaries.

As the Tribunes doing so I doubt. For one thing their symbol of command was
the cloak and breastplate. Hard to wear those over a toga.
Vale
Q Fabius


Subject:	Re: Marconius'Catholic post
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:53:29 -0500

At 14:19 29/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>From: M--------2Two@--------
>JOKE WARNING JOKE WARNING
>
>Maybe the gods will turn putzie into a sheep or somethin....
>
>Crys (Lamb chops anyone???)
>
Hey! That's not funny! .... <laugh>

:-)

Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Absence. (LONG) WARNING: THIS EMAIL CONTAINS SOME OF MY OWN OPINIONS!
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:49:03 -0800 (PST)

Salvete quirites!

This will probably p*ss off a lot of you but I don�t care anymore!

I am, as from tonight, un-subscribing from the main email list and
taking a break from public life.
This includes the Taverna. I will check email and maybe pop into the
Tavern a few times but not on a regular basis.

I am p*ssed off (annoyed for all you devout pious people!) at the way
the majority of the emails to the list have been since the run up to
the elections.

I also have far too much work to do; I have big exams coming up and I
have to study for them and I�ll have lots of work after them.

I am going to remain subscribed to the following lists:

The Back Alley list - I need cheerin up and a laugh as much as the
next person. I also need somewhere I can crack a joke without fear of
being converted!

The Religio list - I think this is a great idea and thanks
Amethystia for giving us a forum on which to discuss our Religion. It
will be very useful.

The Parenting list - Coz I want to!

I am now going to put forward my opinions on a few subjects, so if ye
don�t want to hear it DELETE THIS EMAIL NOW!

Germanicus

Give the poor guy a break!
You think this issue is over? I wish it were but people still talk
about it!

Germanicus made a decision based upon his faith. He then discovered
his decision had been wrong.
I am glad he is back with us and extremely glad he�s back in the senate.

AVE GERMANCUS!!

Elections

Again Cassius had a lot of stick about this, poor guy.
Yes, the elections were difficult but being our first elections I
believe the procedure went fairly well.
We all make our mistakes and will learn from them.

The run up to the elections however did not go well.
Yeah in Ancient times, not only would we have cries of conspiracy but
we�d have threats, threats to family members and assassinations as well.
We don�t want that here though LOL
We are, I hope, taking the GOOD parts of Roman society and
civilisation and building on them eliminate all the bad parts!

You know, as well as me, that Roman life was not paradise. But with
continued work�LOL

Post-Election

Congratulations to all elected candidates and commiserations to all
non-elected candidates

Constitutional Debates

His is a difficult subject.
People should not go mad for the constitution being a bit �ambiguous�.

Look at the American Constitution (I take this as an example because
the majority of citizens are American. I mean no disrespect!).
Over 200 years after it was drawn up, amendments are STILL being made!
LOL
I think our constitution�s done OK so far.
If things need to be changed, they will be when the need arises.

Marconius (Sexual Deviation AND Religious Piety)

OK this guy was an idiot.
He directly attacked Dex, Claudia, myself and the Religio, which is in
violation of the constitution.

He�s gone now though..let�s get back to normal if at all possible!

The Senate�s Reaction to Marconius, and Cassius!

Yes the senate could have been quicker but since Cassius (Give him a
break too!) was away, and came back to all the crap, they did well and
have showed they can work it!

Fannius

I have deleted, without reading, most of the emails since Marconius�
big bash, so I don�t know much about this.
I know that he threatened Marconius in private and that he apologised
in public.
I have also been updated and read the emails so I know what was said.

Fannius has violated our constitution also, by threatening another
citizen.
This cannot be allowed�we must learn to think before writing..I have
only Ericius and Sulla to thank for not being in a similar postion.
Yes, in this sort of situation it is VERY easy to get worked up but
threatening someone, and especially threatening a whole race is
unacceptable, if not stupid.
What did Fannius have to gain by this?

Marconius V�s Fannius, Which is Worse

Saying you�ll kill people or saying you�ll convert them, which is worse?
Well look at history and the many religious wars (The early Christians
and World War II included).
It seems as though conversion is the worst of the two evils.
Millions of people have died for their faith.

Revocation of Citizenship

OK in the last couple of months we�ve had more revocations of
citizenship than since I�ve been here!
I think, basically it shows that people don�t like all the �getting at
each other� that�s been going on.

We have lost some good people and valuable friends and that hurts.

Venator and recipes, Audens et coetera and Naval talk, Graechus and
Sol Invictus.

OK THIS is what the list is for!
Good valuable discussions, wonderful recipes and beneficial information.

Thank you everyone who has been helpful in producing such information.

Claudia and Chill out!

You tell em sister!
Congrats for acceptance to the senate!

If you�re still reading this..thanks :)

Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia


Subject:	Re: The Late Unpleasantness
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 20:00:24 -0500

I, Iustina Luciania Orbianna, wish also to thank the Senate and all those
who have given their aid in a timely response to late problem at hand. This
is definitely a time of celebration, for we have now set a precedent for
future actions and reactions in direct relation to Nova Roma.

"Strength is derived from unity. The range of our collective vision is
far greater when individual insights become one." -anonymous

Ave Nova Roma!

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
Citizen of Nova Roma

----------------------------
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Re: Re Fannius: Let's Do this the Republican Roman Way [long post]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:59:48 -0800

I have already spoken to Equitius and he assured me that the Fannius Affair is
being handled and I am confident that Justice will be served.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quaestor

Mike Macnair wrote:

> From: Mike Ma--------r MikeMa--------r@--------
>
> I wrote (among other things)
>
> >>In the later Republic it would be a "Quaestio" or 'jury' court,
> >>presided over by the Praetor.
>
> and Cincinnatus responded (among other things)
>
> >Or his appointed judge.<
>
> Actually, the single judge appointed by the Praetor (singulus iudex) was
> only used in civil litigation, not crime. Kelly's book on litigation in the
> later Republic (I don't have the book itself or the title to hand) suggests
> that the singulus iudex was originally like an arbitrator chosen by the
> parties, while if D wasn't willing to play ball P would have to go to a
> Comitia.
>
> Sulla wrote
>
> >Ok...here I have formally brought my complaint against Fannius to you,
> >Praetor Urbanis. I have offered my services...that was all I did..
> >But, as per we have no existing procedure..I felt that, my offering
> >would be ok. I noted I was not Praetor Urbanis yet. But here, I am
> >now taking this to the official channel and would like him charged.
>
> I'm sorry, Sulla, but in less than 24 hours time you will be one of the
> responsible judges (unless I'm totally off the mark on when new magistrates
> take over their duties!). So someone else is going to have to prosecute.
> "NEMO IUDEX IN CAUSA SUA" - noone can be judge in his own cause - is an
> elementary legal principle which we inherited from Rome ... :)
>
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.


Subject:	Re: St. Peter's Library (Upstairs)
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 20:07:13 -0500

At 16:56 29/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>From: jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/font>
>
>When I visited Rome last, I took a tour through St. Peters Cathederal
>and "got lost" as sailors are wont to do!!!!!! I turned right when
>everybody else turned left and ended up in a very long hall filled with
>some of the most beautiful treasures I have ever seen. Gold filigree,
>jewel- encrusted caskets that gleamd and winked as one walked by,
>Books, statuettes, swords, caskets, Faberge Eggs that had a king's
>ransom of precious jewels and gold in each. Paintings to die for!!!
>
>Now even being a dumb sailor, I knew I had stumbled onto something very
>unusual and I settled down to trying to remember everything I saw, but I
>was there about an hour and I really got an eyeful. Finally a large
>black-robed monk hove into view, and very stiffly informed me that this
>was a private area, and conducted me OUT by the nearest entrance and
>after a staircase or two, a couple of short passageways and a very
>narrow door later, I was reunited with the group, in disgrace of course,
>but I will always remember that treasre house. I've been in a lot of
>museums before and since then, but I have never seen anything like that
>place!!! It was like Ali Baba's Cave under glass!!!!!
>
>I have never seen pictures of any of those things that I saw in magazine
>or postcards or in any discussions of St. Peter's Cathederal, and all I
>rember about the location was tha it was after Cistine Chapel and the
>double sprial staircase, on an upper floor. It may have been the Pope's
>Library, but I am not sure.
>
>I gotta tell you Dex the ring is NOTHIN'. After 30 mnutes in that place
>you'd probably fog up all the class cases.
>
Audens, you are something else. I happy to share cyber space with you.

Vale and Bright Blessings,
Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
Citizen of Nova Roma

----------------------------
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Re: Humor and anger
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 17:01:01 -0800 (PST)

"Holy Cats? You've come to the right place!" Gaia said. You see, we have
eleven, several of whom are available for adoption.

"Yes," I commented, "but it is the Egyptians who worship cats. Should we
allow the Religio Romana to be polluted by these bizarre foreign cults?"

"Well, yeah, if you don't want Plague."

As always, Gaia has a good point. A little religious tolerance can prevent
some nasty pandemics.

May the Gods (et cati) preserve the Senate and the People of Nova Roma.

Valete,

M. Mala Gangalius et Gaia Mala Gangalia

At 07:02 PM 12/31/98 -0500, Diana/Orbianna wrote:
>From: Diana/Orbianna --------er--------@--------
>
>At 13:06 29/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>From: Cheri Scotch CheriS@--------
>> Holy cats, getting on your list sounds tougher than getting access
>>to the X-Files.
>> sign me up.
> Holy cats? Where? I've never heard that term used before. That's pretty
>nifty, because I'm rather fond of cats...
>
>
>Iustina Luciania Orbianna
&--------rbianna@--------
>
>proserpina@--------
><a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
>----------------------------
>
>"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon
>
>"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>
>
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
gangale@--------

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>

The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>

Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>

The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>

World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>


Subject:	Happy new year to all!
From:	"A. Iulia" iuliacaesaria@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 17:01:01 -0800 (PST)

Salvete!

It is 1999 here!!!
MMDCCLII to ye Romans (Wonder which of ye that could be! LOL!)

I have seen in the new year and will continue doing so til you lot
catch up LOL

Noct'a
*Dancin and drinkin*


Subject:	Nova Roma and the Law
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 20:34:31 -0500 (EST)

Well I agree with Ericius and Scavola Magister but I think that one must
go further still. The Tasks to be done should be prioritized and then
given to the elected officials in defined sections to research and
complete with due dates as our hours allow your involvement. Things
can't be too awfully bad on Palentine Hill because I have offered my
assistance diretly on three different occasions and have had no reply.
Now I know that I am not genius ut I ought to be able to do a task such
as organizing a list or researching a need. I am not asking for
prmission to raise 10 legions and invade Canada here but I would ike to
feel that I even at my low capacity am doing somthing to further Nova
Roma.

I think it has pretty wel been established in the Forum that we need to
start the action my friends, so pick something and assign it out and
let's get to it!!!

Marcus Minucius Audens
Military Tribune

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Nova Roma and the Law
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 20:58:15 -0500

Salve, Marcus Minucius Audens

>Things can't be too awfully bad on Palentine Hill because I have offered my
>assistance diretly on three different occasions and have had no reply.

I have introduced your proposal for the Sodalis Militarae because I also
had not heard anything about it from the other Senatores. Sorry, you have
not gotten a response so far Marcus Cassius and I are for it.

>I think it has pretty wel been established in the Forum that we need to
>start the action my friends, so pick something and assign it out and
>let's get to it!!!

Yes, you will have to make a pest of yourself! BUT, Please join me in
Calling for the Censores to poduce the Tribes and Centuries this truely is
the most important business that needs to be done next. I have begun a
general tremor on this issue. This is an important part of Nova Roma and has
been neglected for TOO LONG.

Also, as per the Constitution I will ask that you be assigned to me as "my"
Quaestor, unless you have other plans:-)
ART.III, sec.7,
"A number of Quaestors shall be elected, as determined by the Senate, to
assist magistrates in their administrative and fiscal responsibilities.
Quaestors shall each be assigned by the Senate to a higher-ranking
magistrate to function as an assistant within the boundaries set forth
below. Each Quaestor shall have the following powers:

1.administer public funds as disbursed by the Senate to pay for and further
the work of magistrates; and,

2.generally assist in the administration of the duties of the magistrate to
whom the Quaestor is assigned. "

Vale, L Equitius Cincinnatus


Subject:	Re: Absence. (LONG) WARNING: THIS EMAIL CONTAINS SOME OF MY OWN OPINIONS!
From:	missmoon missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 21:22:23 -0500

A. Iulia wrote:
>
> I am, as from tonight, un-subscribing from the main email list and
> taking a break from public life.
> This includes the Taverna. I will check email and maybe pop into the
> Tavern a few times but not on a regular basis.

Okay, you're allowed a break but you better come back after exams,
'cause I'll miss you!
As Crys says, "don't make me come over there!"

Oh no! You're NOT leaving Rusticinella in charge of the Taberna! She'll
water the drinks and pinch all the soldiers!

-- Flavia Claudia
>


Subject:	Re: Nova Roma and the Law
From:	missmoon missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 21:37:47 -0500

Lucius wrote:
>

> I have introduced your proposal for the Sodalis Militarae because I also
> had not heard anything about it from the other Senatores. Sorry, you have
> not gotten a response so far Marcus Cassius and I are for it.

I'm for it. So far you're three up. Probably four.

Audens, have you thought of establishing an NR e-mail list for the
Sodalis, if & when it's approved? That might be nice.

-- Flavia Claudia
>


Subject:	Re: Toga
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:44:27 -0800

SFP55@-------- wrote:

> In a message dated 12/31/98 3:22:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> jmath669642reng@-------- --------es:
>
> << A last comment about togas on campaign; I do not see it as impossible that
> the Legion Legate and his senior officers would be required to wear the
> toga on state occasions receiving honored personages or participating in
> religious rituals or festivals. >>
> Salve!
> Caesar certainly did. On many occasions in meeting with foreign dignitaries.
>
> As the Tribunes doing so I doubt. For one thing their symbol of command was
> the cloak and breastplate. Hard to wear those over a toga.
> Vale
> Q Fabius

What you have described is the garb of the Military Tribune, Quintus.I heartily
doubt that the Plebian Tribunes dressed this way in the City. What do you base
this on? I know you are well versed in this field, I'd like to check it out
myself..(I think I look better in uniform than wearing a blanket. ;-] lol )

Ericius


Subject:	Sententia Praetori de Lucio Fannio Agelasto Dive
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 22:11:19 -0500

Salvete Omnes Quirites et Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives

I am pleased that we can now close the matter of Lucius Fannius
Agelastus Dives.
I, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus, have levied a fine
and given duties as penalty in this case. The specifics are not important.
Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives agrees with the penalty. Ita Est!

>>>Payable to Nova Roma, Post Office Box 1897, Wells, Maine 04090
>>>and service under the supervision of Marcus Municius Audens.

>I want to thank you for your
>apology...
>>
>>""After having time to reflect on what I have said to Michael Marconi I
>>realize that my words were too severe and unjustified. Yes, I did threaten
>>Marconius, but by no means did I intend to deliver upon that threat, even
>>if I had an opportunity to do so.
>>
>>At the moment that I replied to Marconius' email (subject: Jesus and the
>>liberals...) I simply wrote the harshest words I could produce at that
>>moment and sent it out instantly without thinking. I realize that I was
>>wrong and should have ignored Marconius' post or written a more polite
>>reply. When I wrote the reply I was furious at what he had posted. The
>>reasons for my feelings at that moment would take far too long to explain
>>in detail. My feelings were influenced by personal experience and what
the
>>Christian Church has done through history.
>>
>>I realize that I cannot change the past, but if there were a way to change
>>the past I would prevent myself from sending those words. All I can do now
>>is place myself at the mercy of the Senate, may it do what it considers
>>just.
>>Lucius Fannius Agelastus Dives""
>
>This makes things much easier to be clement. Ita Est!
>
Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Praetor Urbanus


Subject:	End of Consulship Address... :)
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 23:08:15 EST

Salvete, Omnes!

For the last few day's I've been thinking that I should post some really
profound New Year message to mark the end of Nova Roma's first year, and the
end of my Founding Consulship.

Unfortunately, I'm not so hot at being profound. Instead I'll just say what's
on my mind. In spite of all the difficulties of this founding year, it's been
a great pleasure to get to know all of you, and to be able to work with you!
:) I've been amazed at how good it's been to meet and spend time with
everyone. Some of you are incredibly knowledgeable at aspects of history,
others have amazed me with their personal skills and drive, and/or simply been
wonderful and interesting friends. It's been an honor.

So... I'm glad that Germanicus and I started this thing! I'm also equally glad
that Nova Roma is basically a living entity all itself!

"Aw, look Germanicus... the kid's all grown up now! (sniff)" ;)

Seriously, I really don't care about all the various "crises" we've gone
through - they honestly don't mean much of anything when compared to all the
*Victories* we've had!

In the space of only TEN months, Nova Roma has grown from a mere idea into one
of the largest and most intricate Micronations in the entire world. And,
although the website may not reflect it for another day or so, we now have
over TWO HUNDRED Citizens! (Hmm. We may now be the largest Micronation in the
world at this point. Anyone have the statistics on this?)

Really, most Micronations don't make it this far. Most don't make it beyond
three to five members, and the ones that do grow most often fracture apart at
thirty citizens or so. We've beat the odds, and my bet is that we'll more than
double our Citizen growth in the next year!

Anyway, at this point I'd like to say that our upcoming consuls, Lucius
Equitius Cincinnatus, and Decius Iunius Palladius will do a fine job in the
coming year. I've had full confidence in them from the moment they became
candidates for the positions... both have put a great deal of enthusiasm, time
and effort into Nova Roma and have proven themselves a dozen times over before
even taking office. The nation is in good hands, and I pass the "ivory wand"
over with pleasure!

Our other Magistrates for the year are also a fine group... every one of them
has proven themselves to be both skilled and willing to work on behalf of us
all. AVE to all our public officers for 1999!

So, that's it. If anyone is wondering, though my Consulship is up for the
year, I'm certainly not retiring from Public life. I'll still be active in the
Senate, one of the two Censors, a member of the Pontificial College, and also
Propraetor of the New England Provincia. (Hey, wait... I thought I was gonna
get a VACATION after January 1!) :P

In any case, my first Consulship is ended, and the founding year is done. My
sincere thanks to everyone. It's you folks that have made it all worthwhile!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Co-founder, and now Proconsul


Subject:	Tribes and Centuries
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 23:15:53 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Honored Romans and Censores!!!

On three occasions now we (NR) have faced the situation of not having
the Tribes and Centuries listed for the use of the Senate and
Magistrates. when they were needed. It would seem to me that this
would be an urgent but relatively simple task, but I am not experienced
in this effort, however I am willig to learn.

I call upon the Honorable Censores to review for the Nova Roma Citizens
exactly where this effort is and what percentage (approximate) is
completed and what further effort is needed to complete the project, and
a suggested future deadline. I pledge to bend every effort at my
command to further this project but I cannot do so until we know where
we stand and what is needed.

If the Honorable Censores will inform NR that the project is in hand and
no further assistance is needed and provide NR with a projected
completion date, then we will be most happy to turn our attention to the
next item on the list. We (NR) are fully aware of the efforts made by
the Honoraable Magistrates and Senate in recent weeks and we applaud
them all for these herculean efforts. Our only attention here is to
move things along if possible and feasible.

Vale, Honorable Romans and Censores;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Quaestor - Elect

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Toga - Tribunes
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 23:27:59 -0500 (EST)

I understand what you are saying, but by the time of Caesar Tribunes in
Command were being phased out in favor of experienced battle commanders
beng taken from lower ranks. The Tribunes (all) wore the purple stripe
and as I indicated earlier, I do not believe it impossible that a
Commander wishing to make a "show" would make that requirement of junior
officers. It is just too small a requirement for a Commander of that
age, not to make if he wished. This statement in based on 20 years of
military service on the lower deck and on the quarterdeck, and I believe
it to be possible if not probable.

M. Minucius (Audens)

P.S. If you would be so ind as to talk with me about the Toga o the net,
I would be in your debt. This WebTV does not work well in the Taverna.

M.M.A.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Vatican Treasure
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 23:35:44 -0500 (EST)

FC says: I want that STUFF and I want it NOW.!!

You better start raising a a legion then, my dear, because the Swiss
Guards may look wimpy in that Medieval unform, but they train with the
best of the crack military outfits in the world and are considered one
of the top units!!!!

Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Latin / English
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 23:47:36 -0500 (EST)

I have wanted for some time to tell you how much I enjoy your posts.
They are balanced and they are inquiring. I must say we do not always
agree but we can always agree to disagree, and I think that a valuable
pedetal from which to launch a further endeavor.

About the time that I was reading your last post and wishing I had
gotten off my dead rear-end and ordered a Loeb Series book, one came in
the mail from a Civil War Re-enactor friend-Caesar-The Gallic Wars. Now
I can accept your offer to read and learn with you.

Of course you will realize hat this book includes the description of
Caesar's Bridge over the Rhine and I have several artist's renderings of
that structure. This will be my first entry in my engineering scroll!!!

Marcus Minucius Audens
Military Tribune

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	The Oath of Office of Caius Aelius Ericius as Propraetor of California Provincia of Nova Roma.
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Dec 1998 23:22:07 -0800

I, Caius Aelius Ericius do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the
honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of
the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Caius Aelius Ericius swear to do
honor to the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,
and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Caius Aelius Ericius further swear to fulfill the obligations
and responsibilities of the office of Propraetor of California
Provincia to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and
favor, do I accept the position of Propraetor of California
Provincia and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.