Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:13:48 -0500

Salvete!
I'm all for a meeting place in Philadelphia! I must have missed something
however, as I didn't know it had been discussed already. Will there be
enough people who would be able to attend? I'm a proud resident of the
city, but know of no others within the city limits who are active
participants in Nova Roma. Am I just out of touch?

Valete,
Orbianna

P.S. I've been excrutiately busy attempting to organize my life with my new
business venture. The full time job is about to go soon, so I should have
more time to spare for NR, which is a priority. My paterfamilias must think
I've fallen into Tartarus! Hi, Dex! I'll be writing to you shortly...


At 23:35 08/02/99 EST, you wrote:
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=244007089075059234015098190036129" >GWMETZ@--------</--------;
>
>
>
> VICESIMA - QUARTA
> LEGIO XXIV - MEDIA - ATLANTIA
>
> * PROVINCIA PENNSYLVANIA *
> * MEDIA - ATLANTICA * AMERICIA *
>
> Defending the Frontiers of Rome
> in the Mid - Atlantic Province
> of North America
>
>
> February 8, 1999
> Year of Rome 2751
>
>Ave et Salutatio... Megus and NovaRoma
>
>Hello and Greetings from Gallio Velius Marsallas,
>Praefectus, Legio XXIV-Media-Atlantica;
>Tribune Militaris, NovaRoma Gens Velia
>aka George W. Metz
>13 Post Run Newtown Square, PA 19073-3014
><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=123143014056175043015098190036129" >gwmetz@--------</--------; 610-363-4982
>
>
>Your proposal of a Capitol / Meeting Place for NovaRoma
>in the Philadelphia / NJ area sounds good to me.
>It could be rather central to many citizens of NR.
>Legio XXIV stands ready to offer any needed defense and
>crowd control that may be needed.
>
>Megus, we are apparently neighbors. May I hear from you
>privately as to where you live and could we get together
>somewhere ?
>
>As always, we of Legio XXIV, remain
>
>
>Vestrum in Vinculi Republica Romani
>Yours in the Bonds of the Republic of Rome
>
>
> Gallio / George
>
>
> O====<|| S P Q R ||>====O
> L E G I O
> X X I V
> M A
>
>
> ooooooooooooo
> O====|<|| S P Q R ||>|====O
> | |
> O =============O
> || | | ||
> || | L E G | ||
> || | X X I V | ||
> || | M A | ||
> || | | ||
> || |||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||
> \/ | | \/
> | |
> | |
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>
Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
Citizen of Nova Roma

----------------------------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=165212250009158116172098203108129208071" &--------rbianna@--------</a&--------br>
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197212253112056209171056066140114002071048139" >proserpina@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704

Subject:	[Fwd: CFP: Platonism, Neoplatonism, & American Thought (fwd)]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Feb 1999 01:16:28 -0800

I got this from my ancient philosophy mailing list....this might be of
interest to some of our citizens. So here it is:

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanis

Stephen Clark wrote:

> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:07:35 -0500
> To: Philosophy News Service List <a href="mailto:PNS-List@--------" >PNS-List@--------</a>
> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=173166180012241209184242072140006165152048139046" >Jay_Bregman@--------</a> (Jay Bregman)
>
> ISNS Conference on Platonism, Neoplatonism and American Thought
> Vanderbilt U
> May 20-24 1999.
>
> Send abstracts 200-300 words by Mar 15 to: J. Bregman, Dept. of History,
> University of Maine, Orono ME 04469-5774. e-mail:
> <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=023212192108038031172218072036129208" >Breg----------------</a>.
>
> For local arrangements contact John Lachs, Dept. of Philosophy,
> Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN 37325; e-mail:
> <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226166219122099099015102190036129" >La--------@--------</a>
>
> Some suggested topics: "Plato is Philosophy and Philosophy is Plato"
> Emerson
>
> 1) Plato and American Philosophy; e.g. Dewey's "Spell of Plato", etc.;
> Wm. James and Platonism; Pragmatism as an attack on Neoplatonism.
> 2) Platonism and the philosophy of A.N. Whitehead; C.S. Peirce as a
> Neoplatonist; Santayana as a Neoplatonist.
> 3) American scholarship on Plato from Shorey to Vlastos & beyond
> 4) Original recent & contemporary interpretations of Plato
> 5) Platonism and Neoplatonism in Intellectual History: A.O. Lovejoy &
> co.
> 6) Platonism in the Midwest: H.K. Jones, Thos M. Johnson, the St. Louis
> Hegelians & co.
> 7) American Scholarship on Plotinus and Neoplatonism
> 8) Original recent and contemporary philosophical and theological
> interpretations of Plotinus and the Neoplatonists
> 9) Platonism, Neoplatonism and Modern Science
> 10) Platonism and Neoplatonism in American Art and Lit
> 11) Neopythagorean Musical Thought and Practice
> 12) The European & Colonial Backround: Renaissance Neoplatonism,
> especially the Cambridge Platonists; Bishop Berkeley and Samuel Johnson;
> German Idealism, French Eclecticism, Coleridge, Thomas Taylor
> & co.
> 13) Platonic and Neoplatonic influences on American theological thought.
> 14) Original Philosophical papers with Platonic and Neoplatonic
> arguments
> 15) Renaissance Neoplatonism and Archetypal Psychology; James Hillman &
> co.
> 16) The "Platonic Underworld": lit and art that directly reflects Middle
> and Neoplatonism, "Gnosticism", Hermeticism & co.
> 17) Apophatic thought and deconstructionism.

Subject:	Re: Temple picture needed
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:09:22 -0000

Thank you very much Quintus Poppaeus Sabinus!
I think that there are reconstitutions, otherwise the Capitoline Temple of
Iuppiter will do.

Vale

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedile Plebis

Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:28:31 EST

When is this meeting scheduled to occur? I would be most eager to attend and
visit my lovely Orbianna in Philly once more!

Hey Girl...climb up outta that pit and write me! : )

--Dexippus
Divus Maximus Extremus

Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol some place?
From:	Asseri@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:35:57 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 2/9/99 4:12:43 AM US E--------rn St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=244007089075059234015098190036129" >GWMETZ@--------</--------;
writes:

<< It could be rather central to many citizens of NR.
Legio XXIV stands ready to offer any needed defense and
crowd control that may be needed.
>>
hmm excuse me but I think we need a place out of the east but more to the
center of the usa. Beside the land will be less expencsive to buy . Beside I
don't think the areas close to east coast is central anymore. Historically
Indiana was once the "wild West"now we are thought of as corn/farm lands.
P. A. Olivia

Subject:	Re: Is It Time for a DUES Structure ?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:34:51 EST

I believe the notion of dues was discussed some time ago and we left off at
saying "not at this time". I think a yearly dues fee should be put in place
but I would definately oppose any motion that Patricians pay more. This is
absurd and we really have to put an end to this pseudo-class distinction.
Nova Roma was founded on the idea that everyone is equal. The Patrician
status was put in place as a mere incentive to get people to join early. It
has no meaning beyond that.

However, it seems as if the Plebes are pushing the class distinction. There
are offices that only Plebes can hold and vote for while in our last election,
none were slated only for Patrician-Holding citizens. This is ridiculous and
has no place here.

I motion that the class distinction issue be put to rest and everyone be made
aware of equal status among citizens. If we want to model ourselves from
Ancient Rome and include class distinctions, then let it be based on level of
involvement. Patricians being those citizens who contribute regularly to the
growth, development, and character of Nova Roma and Plebeians being those
citizens who do not. And in that case, I would motion that those Plebeians
pay more in dues to make up for their lack of participation.

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Augur, Nova Roma
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania

Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:33:06 -0600 (CST)

Salvete omnes...

Gallio Marcallas said:
>> Your proposal of a Capitol / Meeting Place for NovaRoma
>> in the Philadelphia / NJ area sounds good to me.
>> It could be rather central to many citizens of NR. <snip the rest>

...to which C. Aelius Ericius responded:
>a meeting place CLVI Stadia NE of Oklahoma City would also be "central
>to many citizens of NR". [...] Usually the West starts at the
>Mississippi, quite often in Nova Roma it seems to start at the
>Appalachians.

I'm with Ericius on this one. To whom or what is New Jersey or
Pennsylvania "central"? Certainly not to either the two most populous
States in the U.S. (California and Texas), nor to Nova Roma's most
populated North American Regiones...you guessed it, California,
probably Nevada, and Texas. (I'm using Alexander Probus's informal
census here; because this was based on the Gentes page, he has no
figures for Nevada where Vartarius Quentius' Legion is stationed.)

Let's face it, the center of gravity in the U.S. as a whole has long
since shifted, and the distribution of Nova Roman Citizens reflects
this. Other States besides the Eastern seaboard have airports,
seaports, and developed road-systems. I'd venture to say there are
more flights leaving Europe for Dallas than for Newark or Philly. And
when you get off said plane, we've even got enough room to handle ya's!
>({|;-)

>Come to think of it, we might be able to get some cheap land in the
>Oklahoma-Kansas-Missouri area. Maybe even on a river with four to
>seven hills or so.

...Like the patch of land I've had my eye on for several years now,
Erici? Seven hills near a bend in the Red River in southern Oklahoma,
and last I checked nobody else was usin' it...
---
__________ _<~) __________
<-\\\\@@@@@) /##\ (@@@@@////-> Märia Villarroel <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
<-\\\@@@@(#####@@@@///-> Historical Re-Creationist
<-\\\*##*///-> and Citizen of Rome
o---<<<<||SPQR||>>>>---o Latin lessons, History lectures
///\\\ Role-playing Games, too!

aka Lucius Marius Fimbria on the weekends

Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol some place?
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:43:14 -0500

Salvete Marsallas et Olivia et omnes

Is this thread a discussion of a capital city, or of a meeting of
Mid-Atlantic NR citizens? The former is a nice subject for daydreams, the
latter something too far away for me (but I hope that it happens anyway).
Unless we have meetings, there will never be a reason to consider a capital
city, much less a capitol, on a serious basis.

If we were to build a capital city someday (much more of a priority than a
capitol I think), I think that the East Coast of the USA might contain an
appropriately central location, given that it would be that much closer to
Europe and Africa than Midwest USA.

While the majority of cives currently reside in the USA, this will not
necessarily always be the case. Also, Europe and Africa contain ruins of
Roma Antiqua, and even functioning pieces, like aqueducts in Hispania. The
NR capital city should not be too inaccessible from the lands visited by
Roman legions and settled by Romans. It would make more sense to build it
in Southern Europe than in Midwest USA, I'd say.

If we were really ready to discuss building a capital city, it would matter
little where each of us currently resides, anyway. We would all have to
uproot our families anyway to go build the capital city, right? And, if we
were not ready to do that...well, what would there be to discuss?

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


> >>
>hmm excuse me but I think we need a place out of the east but more to the
>center of the usa. Beside the land will be less expencsive to buy . Beside
I
>don't think the areas close to east coast is central anymore. Historically
>Indiana was once the "wild West"now we are thought of as corn/farm lands.
>P. A. Olivia
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>

Subject:	Re: Is It Time for a DUES Structure ?
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:59:48 -0500

Salvete Dexippe et alii

I was becoming bored in your absence, Dexippe; it is good to be fired up by
another shot from your hip.


>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
>I believe the notion of dues was discussed some time ago and we left off at
>saying "not at this time". I think a yearly dues fee should be put in
place
>but I would definately oppose any motion that Patricians pay more. This is
>absurd and we really have to put an end to this pseudo-class distinction.
>Nova Roma was founded on the idea that everyone is equal.

Really? Can you find this principle of equality anywhere in the
Constitution?

The Patrician
>status was put in place as a mere incentive to get people to join early.
It
>has no meaning beyond that.

It has at least one meaning beyond that: it reflects the dual order nature
of Republican Roman citizenship. The Preamble to the Consitution states
"The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon
those of ancient Rome." Well, patriciate/plebs was a distinction essential
to the society of ancient Rome.
>
>However, it seems as if the Plebes are pushing the class distinction.
There
>are offices that only Plebes can hold and vote for while in our last
election,
>none were slated only for Patrician-Holding citizens. This is ridiculous
and
>has no place here.

It does have a place here, because it had a place in Roma Antiqua, and it is
perfectly feasible to maintain it here.
>
>I motion that the class distinction issue be put to rest and everyone be
made
>aware of equal status among citizens. If we want to model ourselves from
>Ancient Rome and include class distinctions, then let it be based on level
of
>involvement.

This is an interesting idea, but very hard to implement, wouldn't you say?
Besides, patriciate/plebs was determined by gens in Roma Antiqua and it
therefore makes sense for us to maintain a gens-based class distinction.

Patricians being those citizens who contribute regularly to the
>growth, development, and character of Nova Roma and Plebeians being those
>citizens who do not. And in that case, I would motion that those Plebeians
>pay more in dues to make up for their lack of participation.

I must applaud you, Dexippe. Who else could come up with such an
inflammatory idea out of the blue :)? Too bad you're a patrician, you would
make a great rabble-rousing Tribune.

A paragraph or two above you were saying something about equality among
citizens, and now you propose a tax differentiation in favor of patricians.
You know what? I am a patrican too, but, I would rather see a tax
differentiation in their favor: because we as patricians are supposed to be
honored by our status; should we not therefore be exemplary citizens for
the plebs?

But, since there is no poll tax in Nova Roma, this discussion is moot.
>
>--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
>Augur, Nova Roma
>Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
>
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Free land for NR
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:08:01 -0600 (CST)

>...to which C. Aelius Ericius responded:
>>a meeting place CLVI Stadia NE of Oklahoma City would also be "central
>>to many citizens of NR". [...] Usually the West starts at the
>>Mississippi, quite often in Nova Roma it seems to start at the
>>Appalachians.

Okay, I choose Texas. The reason? Both Marius Fimbria and I are entitled to free land there.

Under an obscure Texas law dating from the 1830s when Texas was trying to raise troops to fight for
independence, any member of the U.S. armed forces ENLISTING from within the State of Texas is entitled to a
free land grant from the state. Of course, we have no choice as to where the land is (could be in the West Texas
desert, could be in the middle of the Dallas North Tollway), but we DO get it.

Let's sign up, Marius! Bring yer DD214 and let's get what's coming to us! (Real estate, anyway.)

-- Flavia Claudia



"My life may suck,
but at least I'm not a guest on Jerry Springer."

Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:22:10 EST

Ok...it seems as though in order to keep this list going there has to be some
kinda of debate. Geesh...you people sure do thrive on confrentation!

What is the most densely populated area of the US of NR citizens? I'm not
quite sure which is why I'm asking.

Now...regardless of where a centralized meeting place is located, it's going
to require most of us to travel to anyway. Besides which, are we not being
US-Centric in proposing that a meeting place be in the U.S.? What about
Hawaii or Bermuda? How about in Rome herself? Ok...got my drift?

Perhaps there should not be just one meeting place, but several...so all NR
citizens can converge to the best of their abilities at a convenient site.
Perhaps we can appoint representatives who will report on their meeting
place's business to a centralized information hub.

Regardless....I still want to know...is something being planned in the Philly
area? If so, when? Details people...I NEED DETAILS! : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Plebians and Patricians
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:41:58 EST

Salvete omnes,

Wow, I've had enough free time to answer TWO letters in the same day! Better
than I've been doing for the last couple of weeks! ;)

Hopefully this won't open up some vast new thread, but Dexippus certainly has
a point that we shouldn't let a rather imaginary difference between Plebian
and Patrician status divide Nova Roma in any way...

In --------ss--------d-------- 99-02-09 09:44:11 EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; writes:

> I believe the notion of dues was discussed some time ago and we left off at
saying "not at this time". I think a yearly dues fee should be put in place
but I would definately oppose any motion that Patricians pay more. This is
absurd and we really have to put an end to this pseudo-class distinction.
Nova Roma was founded on the idea that everyone is equal. The Patrician
status was put in place as a mere incentive to get people to join early. It
has no meaning beyond that.

Patrician status was certainly thought of as an early incentive, and it helped
Nova Roma to grow in the most critical early stages. However, the big reason
that the two classes have been formed is because they HAD to exist in order
for Nova Roma to model the governmental structure of ancient Rome itself. We
simply just didn't dare scrap something so integral to the historical Roman
system.

> However, it seems as if the Plebes are pushing the class distinction. There
are offices that only Plebes can hold and vote for while in our last
election,
none were slated only for Patrician-Holding citizens. This is ridiculous and
has no place here.

There are a few religious positions that can only be held by Patricians
according to history, so there is a little balance anyway! There was little
opportunity to 'slate' positions to only Patricians to balance out the Plebian
Tribuneships... that would have been a huge departure from history itself.

>I motion that the class distinction issue be put to rest and everyone be
made
aware of equal status among citizens. If we want to model ourselves from
Ancient Rome and include class distinctions, then let it be based on level of
involvement. Patricians being those citizens who contribute regularly to the
growth, development, and character of Nova Roma and Plebeians being those
citizens who do not. And in that case, I would motion that those Plebeians
pay more in dues to make up for their lack of participation.

I'm pretty confident that no "Patricians only" tax is going to be raised
anytime soon, so there is little to worry about along those lines! The BIG
point that we all should keep in mind is simply that the only real
Patrician/Plebian division within Nova Roma is the few offices that must by
precendent be held by either one class or the other. The Roman governmental
system doesn't work without the Tribunes of the Plebs... so Nova Roma has
these positions, even if there isn't a real difference among our Citizens
themselves. Hopefully we'll all work to maintain equality among ALL Nova
Romans, and to insure that no true "differences" creep into our system.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Censor, Proconsul

Subject:	Re: Free land for NR
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:40:11 EST

In a message dated 2/9/99 11:08:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029176066112038190112158203026129208071" >m--------oon@--------</a> wr--------:

<< Okay, I choose Texas. The reason? Both Marius Fimbria and I are entitled to
free land there. >>


I still say Cuba...Fidel needs some dough!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Is It Time for a DUES Structure ?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:39:34 EST

In a message dated 2/9/99 11:04:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:

<< I was becoming bored in your absence, Dexippe; it is good to be fired up
by
another shot from your hip. >>

I've been spending most of my time on the Back Alley list as the main list has
become dull and boring due to the insensitivities of some of our citizens.

<<Really? Can you find this principle of equality anywhere in the
Constitution?>>

If it isn't said...then it should be. Why not...we've motioned to change the
damn thing before! Let's do it again! Besides which, we have always
maintained that we desire to rebuild the Ancient Roman structure with some
adaptations to modern sensitivities. I do believe this is one. Or would you,
Merrullus, venture to say that our female citizens be de-valued in order of
the Roman model?

<<It has at least one meaning beyond that: it reflects the dual order nature
of Republican Roman citizenship. The Preamble to the Consitution states
"The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon
those of ancient Rome." Well, patriciate/plebs was a distinction essential
to the society of ancient Rome.
>>>

Ok...see above reply.

<<It does have a place here, because it had a place in Roma Antiqua, and it is
perfectly feasible to maintain it here.>>

See above reply again. I would venture to say that it is not feasible and has
no place in our modern world. If so, then let's set up a Slave class. (what
else could be more Roman?) I can always use another boy or two or three to
clean my apartment!

<<This is an interesting idea, but very hard to implement, wouldn't you say?
Besides, patriciate/plebs was determined by gens in Roma Antiqua and it
therefore makes sense for us to maintain a gens-based class distinction.>>

I don't think it would be difficult at all. We set up a list of standards
that Patricians need to abide by. Anyone who falls short, is demoted to
Plebeian. Regarding Gens...perhaps we make the Pater/Materfamilias
responsibil for keeping 75% of their gens members active in order to maintain
Patrician status. Bugs to work-out...yes. But definately better than the
luck of the draw approach we have now.

<>

Well...you know what they say...Tele-Phone...Tele-Fax...Tele-Fag....I've
always had the gift of gab. I would've been a lawyer if I didn't believe that
they all should be strung upside down and left for voltures to pick at! <<No
offense Sulla!>>

<<A paragraph or two above you were saying something about equality among
citizens, and now you propose a tax differentiation in favor of patricians.>>

I believe there is a difference between class distinction based on chance and
class distinction based on productivity.

<>

And such examples should be in our actions..not how much we pay in dues!

Now...don't get saucey with me, Bernaise!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol some place?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:28:25 EST

I'd like to further suggest that until any permanent structures can even begin
to be seriously discussed, that the "capitol" be a virtual capitol and present
wherever NR decides to hold a meeting of minds and consuls. So...maybe one
year it's in Cincinnati, OH...another year it's in Philly...another year it's
in London, ON...etc.

Just an idea...let's get beyond the pettiness.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Is It Time for a DUES Structure ?
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:18:02 EST

Salvete omnes,

I've been in the process of moving recently and haven't been able to get to
the computer to contribute much in recent conversations. By next week the
process will finally be OVER, and Patricia Cassia and I will be together in
our new house! :)

In the meantime, this has caught my eye during a rare free moment...

In a message dated 99-02-08 23:59:13 EST, Gallio Velius Marsallas
(<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=244007089075059234015098190036129" >GWMETZ@--------</--------;) writes:

> With the current and past discussions on the costs of
administering to the needs of NovaRoma,
I have wondered why no proposal for Annual Dues has been
put forth.

The idea of dues, or in our case "taxation" has come up several times, both
among the Senators and on this list. The need to see Nova Roma adequately
funded is certainly a reasonable one! However, to date we've been hoping to
build the treasury through a combination of voluntary contributions and sales
of items such as coinage, postage stamps, etc.

> Every organization, be it a nation, county, city, town,
VFW, Fraternity, Boy Scout Troop or Club needs to have
a dependable and ongoing source of revenue ( tax, assessment,
dues, fee ) to cover the costs of running the organization.

That is basically true, with a few loopholes. Most nations don't deny
Citizenship or exile people for an inability to pay taxes for instance, and
because of this Nova Roma has looked for the most "gentle" methods of funding
possible. The one thing we DO want to avoid is turning people away just
because they can't give us a certain sum of money... we already have a few
valued and much loved Citizens who have admitted they would be unable to pay
mandatory fees for the right to remain among us.

>NR is no different. I would propose that Annual Dues of
$10.00 to $20.00 ? be assessed, which would cover the cost
of the Eagle being sent to all Citizens in good standing and
should also allow some excess funds to be allotted to the other
ongoing expenses and future plans of the NovaRoma Nation.

It might well be a little difficult to automatically send a tax funded copy
of "The Eagle" to all Citizens in good standing. We have a substantial number
of overseas Citizens, which would lead to a very high overall mailing cost.
Our printing costs would also go up something like 500%. To date it has been
much easier to fund the Eagle by subscription... and only those who actively
want to receive it need to pay for it.

> Should Patricians perhaps pay more ? (Only one stone at a
time thrown my way, Please)

LOL! Actually, our Consuls are already instating a VOLUNTARY tax for
Magistrates, rather than Patricians. There is of course no real Citizenship
difference between Patricians and Plebians except for a couple of historical
posts - but magistracy is another story. It's been reasoned that anyone
wishing to hold responsibility ought to at least have an opportunity to
voluntarily contribute financially in return.

>We already live in a nation of deficit spending. There is no
free lunch. If its free to you, then someone else is surely
paying for it ! . . . just as you are going to pay for someone
else's lunch, sometime, somewhere.

So far the Nova Roma treasury is small, but we're certainly to the good rather
than running a deficit. There will be some increased spending this year, but
that will be offset by some of the funding projects (stamps, coins) that I'll
be able to assist the Senate with as soon as my move is finally over! ;)

> Let's get ourselves on a firm financial foundation.
We ALL must SHARE and CARRY the load.

Hear, hear! Anyone who is willing and able to donate voluntarily to Nova Roma
is certainly invited to. Money has basically nothing to do with our central
ideals of reviving Rome, but it will *certainly* be helpful in funding the
operation of Nova Roma itself. Most of us have shown that we DO care about
rebuilding Roman culture... we've continued to participate both through good
times and bad. There is no reason why that participation can't be carried into
financial involvement by those who have the ability to do so.

> Respectfully submitted for SERIOUS consideration,
we of Legio XXIV remain,

Many thanks, Gallio Velius Marsallas and Legio XXIV!! Being concerned about
financial stability is one of the most Roman of traits! If ancient Rome has
left us anything it's a legacy of organization and practicality. History shows
that Roma never took a major collective step without first being assured that
the public treasury was stable and could bear the load.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Censor, Proconsul

Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:30:35 EST

Salvete omnes,

I haven't had an opportunity to contribute to the Land/World Capital thread
that has bounced around for a couple of weeks. I'm kinda glad to see it again
just so I don't miss out completely! ;)

Nova Roma's status as a Micronation would be VASTLY enhanced by owning land...
ANY land. One acre or several hundred, usable or non-usable, convenient or
inconvenient. I'd do a comical dance for joy in the forum for even *one* acre
of land in Nova Roma's name, anywhere on the face of the earth! It would show
serious intent on a greater level than 99.9% of other Micronations have
achieved. Land is almost always the best currency for achieving serious
attention throughout the world.

The goal stated on the Nova Roma website is to establish a World Capital site
in the amount of 108 acres... a cultural/spiritual center comparible to
Vatican City, the world capital of Roman Catholicism.

That goal does not mean that the "claimed" 108 acres would need to be either
the first or only land owned by Nova Roma... we'll happily take whatever would
be practically possible. If we held the deed to even one acre right now it'd
be a great victory as far as "image" - even though it would leave our World
Capital goal still unfulfilled for the present.

As far as the discussions on where to locate a large number of acres, we'll
probably have to make choices by availability and what we can afford more than
on other factors. If we find something practical in California, that'd be the
site... if we find something in Pennsylvania, Michigan or out of the US
entirely, same thing. It's just going to be a matter of getting a substantial
amount in the treasury and then finding land cheap enough to buy.

I've had a brief look online for real-estate here in the US, just to check out
the waters in an idle way. I found that most inexpensive land is sold in 200
acre lots or more. The best price I could find online was about $185 per acre.
I'm SURE that an in-person visit to a real estate agent would net better
prices, but there's no reason to go hunting until we have a practical level of
money to work with.

(Actually, even though people will no doubt scream, I did my online search for
land in the far-away-from-everyone state of Maine. Why? Because in Northern
Maine there are places which aren't a part of any town. They're totally
unbuilt, and are literally nothing but longitude and latitude coordinates! I
think that's pretty neat... an area that someone could give a name to. Any
more places like that around the country?)

In the meantime, let's not wear ourselves out by arguing over too many "what
ifs"... we've got a ways to go before we can think about purchasing land.
(Perhaps we should hope for someone to donate a bit of land? Might not be a
bad thing to put up on our website or something...) ;)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator, Censor, Proconsul

Subject:	Re: Capitol some place/class/dues?
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:18:28 EST

Salvete!
Today is the Academy Award Nominations so I'm very busy writing for
publications, (I'm a MPAA critic) but there was a lot on list this morning
that I had to reply, busy or not.

First, Class. I believe, like Ericius, that this whole discussion is boring
and pretty redundant. Where we are in 10 years will probably decide this
issue. Those who have stuck and contributed will be the Patricians and the
rest Plebes. Until then, no point in talking about it.

Second, dues. I have been saying since I joined that we should have a tithe
for membership. Since for all intents and purposes, we are a club and there
should be dues. Every other organization has something to bring in money from
its members. I have maintained since the start that $5.00 for the newsletter
is way underpriced. We should be doing something about this because without
this we can't...

...get land. Third, Land. Land isn't cheap and at the risk of sounding
redundant unless we recruit Bill Gates, not much hope of getting any soon.
Now I know that members of Europe and the Americas will cringe, but it is
obvious it will be here near the U.S. As for maintain the area, I lean towards
that chap that wanted an African theme park area for NR. As member of the
NBPS, I fought against Disney setting up a ACW theme park near Bull Run
Battlefield. I won, but I liked their idea of heritage theme parks. Just not
on historic old battlefields. I see NR as an eventual heritage theme park to
maintain the organization. A combined tourist attraction/study center/museum
that will allow people to see Rome as it should be. Not dissicated stone with
the marble facade missing. Reproductions have come a long way today.
With money and craftsmen one can reproduce anything. And with the tools
available today, things can be turned out so much faster.

I was fortunate as an undergraduate to take part of the planning group to
restore the 1930s world fair's buildings to San Diego's Balboa Park. The
Project commenced in 1982, and was finished (for the most part) by 1985. I
and seven others researched resources, mostly pictures, and written
descriptions. In several cases we came across architects plans, and draughts.
We then aided the architects in the design of how the buildings should look.
Again all it took was money.
We would have a Library. Like the classical Library, except we have every
publication in print or out, on Rome. I suspect most will be on disk, yet it
still will be available to scholars and interested parties.
Again, all it will take, is money.
Well, I have to get back to work. Some will see me as a dreamer. But ponder
this, all. If we are not shooting for some long range grandiose goal like
this, why are we doing this?
May Fortuna preserve our Republic!!
Valete!

Subject:	Pompeii's Insula model aval.
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:22:14 EST

In a message dated 2/9/99 3:56:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
<a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=029044114112127020138218061036129208" >m--------jl@--------</a> writes:

<< I am trying to find a home for the model of the Insula of the Menander
at Pompeii made for the Royal Academy exhibition "Pompeii AD 79"
in 1976-77. It is currently on temporary display in the Architecture and
Planning Building of the University of Manchester, U.K., but has to
be removed because there is no permanent place available. Any museum
or university department that has space for this model is welcome to have it
gratis, provided that they can arrange to collect and transport it. The main
problem is size. The model (at 1:25) measures 2.8 x 3 m. and is approx.
18 ins. high. It divides into four roughly equal parts for transport. Any
one who is interested should contact myself or Honor Giles
(<a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=029044114112042192048218061036129208" >m--------mg@--------</a>) urgently. There is a real risk that the model
will have to be destroyed unless a home can be found for it quickly.
Roger Ling
Department of Archaeology,
University of Manchester >>
Salvete!
Anybody have any good ideas about this?
Valete
QFM

Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:24:08 -0500 (EST)

Of course you are absolutely right in regard to the cetralized U.S.
location. In addition to your suggestion, I have some relatives living
near a small town of Myland, MO (northwest corner) who have recently
found another relative a reasoably priced farm. There are quite a few
fams, buildings, and such in that area and for a hundred miles around.

However for the Eastern group of NR people, certainly a central location
might be New Jersey or Philadelphia at least as a consideration. I do
not see that NR will have the funding to purchase land / property any
time soon, or the ability to maintain it. Just a rough estimate of
homes in Myland, MO (needing work) would be about $5,000 to $8,000,
based on last years prices. A farm with outbuildings still in good-fair
shape depending on the land available with it, would be $10,000 to
$12,000 dollars up to 10 acres and probably $300-$500 per acre after
that. Cheaper lands are available, of course, but those would require a
lot of clearing and cleaning up effort. Many of these properties are
available because the owners got too old and had to leave. The bank
holds the morgage and nothing has been done for a few to several years.

I think for the moment, a house, hall, church basement rented two to
three times a year for a get-together of local people is more our style.
I have identified three such properties which would support a
get-together of that sort here in the vicinity of New London, and am
waiting to contact the Pro-Consul for his approval.

I contacted our local tax collector and there are no structures that are
delinquent in taxes that we could pay for them with first opportunity to
get the property were our money not paid back to us. That is a
suggestion that I would make to a variety of you in different areas of
the counry. I believe that to be the THE cheapest way we could pick up
property, but it very likely will not be in good shape. Just a couple
of ideas off the tp of my head.

Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Capitol some place/class/dues?
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:39:51 -0000

Salvete omnes

>Now I know that members of Europe and the Americas will cringe,
You can bet that! =|
And I've already spoken to Consul Palladius about this.
Hey Italian Praetor! What do you have to say about the issue?


>but it is
>obvious it will be here near the U.S..
It's not obvious. I will want to know why. Then, if reasons are good, I
shall accept and won't cringe anymore. Otherwise Nova Roma is running the
risk of provoking the creation of Constantinople II, and a Republican one
this time.

>I see NR as an eventual heritage theme park to
>maintain the organization. A combined tourist attraction/study
center/museum
>that will allow people to see Rome as it should be. Not dissicated stone
with
>the marble facade missing. Reproductions have come a long way today.
>With money and craftsmen one can reproduce anything. And with the tools
>available today, things can be turned out so much faster.
Hope you don't plan to build it near LA. I just won't tolerate a Roman
Disneyland!

Valete

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Propraetor Provinciae Lusitaniae

Subject:	Land
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:38:11 EST

Okay just to let you know alot of the stuff in here is going to sound stupid,
but please read through it incase you like any of the ideas. All of this is
EXTREMELY expensive stuff of course.

Instead of purchasing already existing land, why not make our own? Take a
look at the large off-shore oil wells (those big floating platforms). Why not
use something like that (minus the oil) as land? Just find an area with
somewhat shallow water and stick a monster-sized platform on it. Say...5
square miles?

Other options:
Underwater city.
City that floats on the water.
City that floats in the sky, lifted by large balloons.
City in space (okay, now THATS a dumb idea).

Subject:	Re: Free land for NR
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:22:22 -0000

Salve Dexippe

>I still say Cuba...Fidel needs some dough!
Don't say it again, Dex... I love Fidel. =)
For me he is an hero, a man of charisma who sacrificed his family's status
to fight for his people.

Antonius Gryllus Graecus

Subject:	Re: Is It Time for a DUES Structure ?
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:21:20 -0500

Salvete Dexippe et alii

I think that it would be imprudent of me not to answer your questions
publically, so that's what I'm doing.


>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
When I asked about your reference to Nova Roma being built on equality of
citizens you said-
>
>If it isn't said...then it should be. Why not...we've motioned to change
the
>damn thing before! Let's do it again! Besides which, we have always
>maintained that we desire to rebuild the Ancient Roman structure with some
>adaptations to modern sensitivities. I do believe this is one. Or would
you,
>Merrullus, venture to say that our female citizens be de-valued in order of
>the Roman model?

To which I answer, no.

Continuing, I said the following referring to the patriciate/plebs
distinction:

><<It does have a place here, because it had a place in Roma Antiqua, and it
is
>perfectly feasible to maintain it here.>>
>
>See above reply again. I would venture to say that it is not feasible and
has
>no place in our modern world. If so, then let's set up a Slave class.
(what
>else could be more Roman?) I can always use another boy or two or three to
>clean my apartment!

Are you joking or serious here? Are you in favor of enslavement? I myself
am not proposing to enslave anyone. Maintaing patrician/plebeian
distinction is hardly equatable to resurrection of slavery. If it were, I
doubt that Nova Roma would have had a lively race for Tribune of the Plebs,
which we of course did. Unless you believe that patricians are somehow
enslaved? I do not feel like anyone's slave.
>
><<This is an interesting idea, but very hard to implement, wouldn't you
say?
>Besides, patriciate/plebs was determined by gens in Roma Antiqua and it
>therefore makes sense for us to maintain a gens-based class distinction.>>
>
>I don't think it would be difficult at all. We set up a list of standards
>that Patricians need to abide by. Anyone who falls short, is demoted to
>Plebeian. Regarding Gens...perhaps we make the Pater/Materfamilias
>responsibil for keeping 75% of their gens members active in order to
maintain
>Patrician status. Bugs to work-out...yes. But definately better than the
>luck of the draw approach we have now.

This is a serious proposal, right? It reads like one anyway. What I like
about it is that it would provide a mechanism to encourage people to
participate in Nova Roma. What I do not like about, mainly, is that it
would put all of us under the scrutiny of some of us. I do not want to
commit to a set of standards or actions to maintain status here. I may be
lazy, but I'm also realistic: I'll do what I can do and don't see the point
in trying to conform to someone else's expectations/standards whatever.
Besides, it's noone's business, really, who is an active citizen, who isn't
or whatever.

There is a much simpler approach to the whole active/inactive issue: given
the nature of Nova Roma at present, inactive amounts to "out of touch",
basically. Let it be the resonsibility of each of us to stay active, i.e.
"in touch", with each other and our magistrates. Those of us who do not
simply lose all the benefits of NR community by not participating, not
voting, et cetera, as a result of being "out of touch".
>
><>
>
>Well...you know what they say...Tele-Phone...Tele-Fax...Tele-Fag....I've
>always had the gift of gab. I would've been a lawyer if I didn't believe
that
>they all should be strung upside down and left for voltures to pick at!
<<No
>offense Sulla!>>

Well, you have no monopoly on the gift of gab :); I personally would wager
that, if the two of us were introduced at a party, everyone else would soon
leave; by the end of the night, you would give up too. I can drone on
incessantly with the best of them. Maybe someday we'll get the chance to
experiment?
>
>
>I believe there is a difference between class distinction based on chance
and
>class distinction based on productivity.>

True enough, but the latter variety does not occur anywhere in the world, to
my knowledge. And more importantly, the class distinction in Roma Antiqua
was based on chance -- the accident of one's circumstances at birth
determined to what order one belonged. Then there is adoption.

>And such examples should be in our actions..not how much we pay in dues!

I agree with the last part. The class distinction should not bother us too
much: being a patrician did not hurt Gaius Iulius Caesar too much, so I
doubt that the status will harm you :).
>
>Now...don't get saucey with me, Bernaise!

Who is Bernaise?
>
>--Dexippus
>
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Capitol some place/class/dues?
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:20:32 -0500

Salvete Antoni Grylle et alii



>From: "Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
>
>
>>Now I know that members of Europe and the Americas will cringe,
>You can bet that! =|
>And I've already spoken to Consul Palladius about this.
>Hey Italian Praetor! What do you have to say about the issue?

Wait! Don't cringe yet. I think that people are talking about different
things.

1. Some of us are talking (daydreaming) about a capital city for Nova Roma.
2. Some of us are talking about getting a hold of some land to use for
gatherings, rituals, whatever (some of us are even looking into this and it
seems like such places may exist in our lifetimes in Maine, Texas, and/or
Connecticut :))
3. Some of us are talking about getting together with citizens residing
relatively close by (the first step to be taken I think).
>
>
>>but it is
>>obvious it will be here near the U.S..
>It's not obvious. I will want to know why. Then, if reasons are good, I
>shall accept and won't cringe anymore. Otherwise Nova Roma is running the
>risk of provoking the creation of Constantinople II, and a Republican one
>this time.

Yes, I have to agree that it is not obvious that our capital city, That
Beloved Subject of Dreams, would be in any particular place. I would think
that it would preferably be in Southern Europe, so as not to be too far from
parts of Roma Antiqua. Of all the U.S. locations thus far mentioned, I
would say somewhere near Philadelphia would'nt be bad; how long is the
flight from Philadelphia to Rome?

>
>>I see NR as an eventual heritage theme park to
>>maintain the organization. A combined tourist attraction/study
>center/museum
>>that will allow people to see Rome as it should be. Not dissicated stone
>with
>>the marble facade missing. Reproductions have come a long way today.
>>With money and craftsmen one can reproduce anything. And with the tools
>>available today, things can be turned out so much faster.

Somehow the theme park concept seems less than totally compatible with the
idea of a spiritual center. How spiritual can a theme park be?

>Valete
>
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>Propraetor Provinciae Lusitaniae

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Capitol some place/class/dues?
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:59:45 -0000

Salve Merulle!

I read what you said, and anyway I quit my argument. The truth is that the
majority of Nova Roman citizens are in fact from the US.

Vale

Antonius Gryllus Graecus

Subject:	Re: Free land for NR
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:55:16 EST

In a message dated 2/9/99 2:15:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
writes:

<< Don't say it again, Dex... I love Fidel. =)
For me he is an hero, a man of charisma who sacrificed his family's status
to fight for his people. >>

That may be...but he still needs money! Cuban real-estate is going cheap! :
)

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Is It Time for a DUES Structure ?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:17:51 EST

In a message dated 2/9/99 2:26:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:

<< I think that it would be imprudent of me not to answer your questions
publically, so that's what I'm doing. >>

And since when are you not imprudent?

<<Are you joking or serious here? Are you in favor of enslavement? I myself
am not proposing to enslave anyone. Maintaing patrician/plebeian
distinction is hardly equatable to resurrection of slavery. If it were, I
doubt that Nova Roma would have had a lively race for Tribune of the Plebs,
which we of course did. Unless you believe that patricians are somehow
enslaved? I do not feel like anyone's slave.>>

I would invite you to take a deeper look at the S&M community where many a
submissive "get off" on acting in a slave role. I am not advocating that such
take place in NR. But if NR wants an accurate re-created Roma Antiqua, then
slavery was definately a part of that. We can't walk the fence here
folks...who decides which aspects of Ancient Rome get re-created and which
aspects do not? You don't agree with slavery (or any image or such) but you
opt for class distinctions. There's not much difference there if you ask me.
My question regarding slavery was rhetoric. Our NR government can and will
run smoothly without Pat/Pleb distinction. If it must be there, then
fine...but let's understand where the lines are drawn. Plebeian debates
during the past election surmounted to an "us vs. them" dialogue that quite
frankly pissed me off enough times to be disgusted with the whole thing. No
one group in NR is trying to control or govern another group. A Plebeian
order based on such a notion is paranoia at it's best.

<<This is a serious proposal, right? It reads like one anyway.>>

Oh you're smart!

<<What I do not like about, mainly, is that it
would put all of us under the scrutiny of some of us. I do not want to
commit to a set of standards or actions to maintain status here.>>

Well...then come up with a better proposal. By standards, I'm not suggesting
"Walked On Water This Month?" But merely a check list by which at any time
members of Patrician or Plebeain Status can be checked. Participated in
Market Day? Attended a NR event? Offered constructive dialogue on the Main
List? Etc. I'm sure we could all come to consensus on some standards if need
be.

<>

As said above...no one is asking you to walk on water. So calm yourself down
and drink something! And I think it is important that continuing contributors
to NR be recognized somehow. It would only seem logical that Pat status be
the appropriate acknowledgement. Don't like it? As I said...offer another
proposal. But the status quo of Pat vs. Pleb by being merely the first 30 or
so to join does not cut it. Doing so by contribution would legitimize a
Plebeain council and Patrician offices. Doing so otherwise is mere
discrimination based on nothing but fate.

<<There is a much simpler approach to the whole active/inactive issue: given
the nature of Nova Roma at present, inactive amounts to "out of touch",
basically. Let it be the resonsibility of each of us to stay active, i.e.
"in touch", with each other and our magistrates. Those of us who do not
simply lose all the benefits of NR community by not participating, not
voting, et cetera, as a result of being "out of touch".>>

But merely staying "in touch" does not further Nova Roma. We do not succeed
and exceed goals merely because we chat online. They are done with concious
effort to take part in active roles. Running for magistrates...governing
provinciae...serving as Priest or Augur...recruiting new members...updating
the websites...etc.

<<Well, you have no monopoly on the gift of gab :); I personally would wager
that, if the two of us were introduced at a party, everyone else would soon
leave; by the end of the night, you would give up too. I can drone on
incessantly with the best of them. Maybe someday we'll get the chance to
experiment?>>

Well...I never said I had a monopoly on the gift of gab...only that I have it.
And if we meet at a party, we should have a go at it. And the only way I
would give up is if your breath stank!

<<True enough, but the latter variety does not occur anywhere in the world, to
my knowledge. And more importantly, the class distinction in Roma Antiqua
was based on chance -- the accident of one's circumstances at birth
determined to what order one belonged. >>

And so as a result you feel it's best to exemplify that in NR? Ok...now I
know where you're coming from. So let's scrap the constitution...Ancient Rome
didn't have one! Let's scrap the National Flag...Ancient Rome didn't have
one! Let's scrap the web page...Ancient Rome didn't have one. Let's scrap
OneList...Ancient Rome didn't have one...we'll communicate by parchment and
ride horses to everyone to deliver! Now That's Ancient Rome!

<<Who is Bernaise?>>

It's a joke....Bernaise Sauce...Saucey...Bernaise....ever see History of the
World?

--Dexippus

Subject:	[Fwd: Ancient History Newsletter]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:44:04 -0800

This might be of interest:

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanis

"ancienthistory.guide" wrote:

> =========================================================
> A N C I E N T * H I S T O R Y * N E W S L E T T E R
>
> N.S. Gill
> Ancient History Guide at The Mining Co.
> February 9, 1999
> Vol. III Issue #6
>
> =========================================================
>
> HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY!
>
> =========================================================
>
> THIS WEEK'S FEATURE: A Woman's Guide to the Art of Love
>
> ****************************************************************
> * SPECIAL NOTE: *
> * *
> * ***The new feature/updates have been delayed*** *
> * *
> * If you would like to look at a test version *
> * of this week's feature, please go to *
> *<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa020999.htm*" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa020999.htm*</a>
> * My apologies for any inconvenience. *
> * *
> ****************************************************************
>
> Women in search of a man have always staged an uphill battle.
> Today with standards for appropriate behavior changing
> and men being told to be less aggressive, perhaps the weapons
> Ovid gave the amazons way back when will help --
> or not.
>
> (Go to the
> Ancient/Classical History Homepage at
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com</a> to read this week's feature.)
>
> =========================================================
>
> CATULLUS: A Poet Seared by Cupid's Arrows
>
> >From Rose Williams:
>
> In Poem 51, Catullus, who surely counts as an expert on the subject,
> describes the sensations of love.
>
> Ille mi par esse deo videtur,
> ille, si fas est, superare divos
> qui sedens adversus identidem te
> spectat et audit
> dulce ridentem, misero quod omnis
> eripit sensus mihi: nam simul te
> Lesbia, aspexi, nihil est super mi
>
> [For an English Translation -- <a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~catul/text2/e51.htm" target="_top" >http://huizen.dds.nl/~catul/text2/e51.htm</a>
> If you prefer German -- <a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~catul/text2/g51.htm" target="_top" >http://huizen.dds.nl/~catul/text2/g51.htm</a>
> And here's the Dutch -- <a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~catul/text2/d51.htm]" target="_top" >http://huizen.dds.nl/~catul/text2/d51.htm]</a>
>
> To listen to some of Catullus' poems read in Latin, try:
> <a href="http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/" target="_top" >http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/</a>
>
> =========================================================
>
> SYRIAN ART TO TOUR
>
> Syria's Millennium Gift - 5,000 Years of History
> <a href="http://www.arabia.com/content/culture/2_99/syria2.shtml" target="_top" >http://www.arabia.com/content/culture/2_99/syria2.shtml</a>
>
> =========================================================
>
> SITE UPDATE
> Exciting new look!
>
> (Net Links)
>
> --------------------------------
>
> BATTLES
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub27.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub27.htm</a>>
>
> Caesar in Britain
> The Landings of Caesar in Britain, 55 and 54 BC
>
> --------------------------------
>
> CHILDREN
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub1.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub1.htm</a>>
>
> BBC Roman History Page
> Aesop's Fables Without Morals
>
> --------------------------------
> LATIN
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub17.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub17.htm</a>>
>
> Cupid & Psyche
> Translation
>
> --------------------------------
>
> MYTHOLOGY & RELIGION
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubmyth.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubmyth.htm</a>>
>
> Major Deities in the Myths of Ugarit
>
> --------------------------------
>
> NEAR EAST
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub6.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub6.htm</a>>
>
> Canaanite & Phoenician History & Culture
>
> --------------------------------
>
> TIMELINE
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimeline.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimeline.htm</a>>
>
> Ancient History
>
> --------------------------------
>
> If you know of a link I should include, please send it to me.
>
> =========================================================
>
> QUESTIONS
>
> ***From the Bulletin Board:
>
> I would like to know WHY Athena is called "gray-eyed Athena"...I have found
> an explanation to her other descriptor, "Pallas Athena" but nothing to the
> origin of the "gray-eyed" descriptor.
>
> ***From Email:
>
> This one has already been answered, but it was interesting:
>
> 1.My son is looking for a picture (jpg or gif) of Greek God Uranus. We
> must have run 25 searches and looked at 100+ web sites to no avail. If
> you have one please e-mail to me....
>
> This one has been answered, too:
>
> 2.I'm wondering what gender should the Latin nouns ending in -er be. I
> thought Latin nouns end in either -um(neuter), -a(feminine), or
> -us(musculine) for nominative case.
>
> =========================================================
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> =========================================================
>
> CURA UT VALEAS
>
> N.S. Gill
> Ancient/Classical History Guide at The Mining Co
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com</a>
> <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=243071219009056116050199186219249063039158139102017099009143116067142076083" >ancienthistory.guide@--------</a>
>
> =========================================================
>
> This Newsletter is copyrighted 1999 by N.S. Gill and The Mining Co. Feel
> free to distribute this Newsletter in its entirety to anyone who may be
> interested.
> ISSN: 1521-9232
>
> **********************************
> N.S. Gill
> Ancient/Classical History Guide
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com</a>
> This week's feature: The Four Humors
>
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Subject:	Re: Capitol some place/class/dues?
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:22:55 EST

In a message dated 2/9/99 12:52:25 PM Pa----------------andard Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
writes:

<< The truth is that the majority of Nova Roman citizens are in fact from the
US. >>
I do hope one day this will change.

QFM

Subject:	Re: Dues? No. Planning? Yes.
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:26:29 -0800

My computer at work spits cute quote on the screen everytime we boot up a
certain application. This one is pertinent to the current idscussion.

Nothing dispels enthusiasm like a small admission charge.


for what it's worth,

Ericius

Subject:	Re: Dues? No. Planning? Yes.
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:26:47 -0800

My computer at work spits cute quote on the screen every time we boot up a
certain application. This one is pertinent to the current discussion.

Nothing dispels enthusiasm like a small admission charge.


for what it's worth,

Ericius

Subject:	Re: Land
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:30:32 -0800

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------; wrote:

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
> Other options:
> Underwater city.
> City that floats on the water.
> City that floats in the sky, lifted by large balloons.
> City in space (okay, now THATS a dumb idea).

Actually, that is the only one (of all I've seen) that sounds good to me.

Ericius

Subject:	Re: Pompeii's Insula model
From:	"Gehn" gehn@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:45:35 -0800

I'l take it! In fact, i'l live in it! Just bulldoze my parent's house and
its a deal :)

- Fannius

> -----Original Message-----
> From: -------- [mailto:<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a>]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 11:56 AM
> To: Nova Roma Mailing List
> Subject: [novaroma] Pompeii's Insula model
>
>
> From: -------- <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a>
>
> Quoth <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;:
>
> >I am trying to find a home for the model of the Insula of the Menander
> > at Pompeii made for the Royal Academy exhibition "Pompeii AD 79"
> > in 1976-77.
>
> This sounds like a worthy project for the outreach/charitable arm of Nova
> Roma. O Great Senators, would you care to pick someone to investigate
> what this thing is, whether it's worth saving, how much it would cost to
> transport it? If you decide that the project is within our reach, perhaps
> another volunteer could be found to canvass museums and colleges to find
> it a home. I expect someone would be glad to take it if we paid the
> shipping.
>
> Patricia Cassia
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>

Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Feb 1999 18:02:51 -0800

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:

> Now...regardless of where a centralized meeting place is located, it's going
> to require most of us to travel to anyway. Besides which, are we not being
> US-Centric in proposing that a meeting place be in the U.S.? What about
> Hawaii or Bermuda? How about in Rome herself?

How about the Nova Roma Hotel in Spain? Remember? The place we found by going
to the URL -- www.novaroma.com That is dot COM, not Org.

Dex, You didn't really take that serious? Did ya? I's cool, man.

Ericius

Subject:	Re: Meeting Place / Capitol some place?
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:40:15 -0600

Salvete Omnes!

If I may.

Rome is the One and Only Capital for all Romans.

We may at some point come to own a Domus or Villa therein, but realistically, may
be no more of a presence in the Eternal City than the local office of a
charitable or educational foundation.

For Nova Rome, we need in effect, Provincial Forums or Preatoria, with regional
Castra or Legations.

And as far as Nova Rome getting deeded land, Hel, I think we'd be delighted to
own a small town building lot with a couple of trees on it. At least with this
size of a piece of land, we could create a neighborhood greenspace, and provide
some positive effect to the host community.

A note on dues: I am finishing up a manual of making Mead, the proceeds from
selling this I shall contribute to Nova Rome. This is similar to a project I am
finishing up for my Asatru Kin Groups. If we can, all of us, contribute
something - either monetarilly or via talent, this is the main form of dues we
need right now. Don't get me wrong, a proper Treasury does require a filling of
Sesterces, but that will come. We need to work on the Societal and
Organizational 'bumps and bruises', which are endemic to any new organization, no
matter how well planned out.

mea sententia

In Amicus et Fidelis - Venator Cives et Quaestor

(PS: Subscribe to the Eagle!!!!! Send an inquiry to Flavia Claudia at
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029176066112038190112158203026129208071" >m--------oon@--------</a> )

Subject:	Re: Pompeii's Insula model
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:42:16 -0500 (EST)

If someone will explain to this Roman what you are talking about, I
would be glad to contribute to the postage and the storage of "it" here
at my place until a place could be found for it, or we (NR) decide we
want it for our own. We obviously have some people in England, who may
be able to make arrangements for a lorry pick-up and delivery to a
mailing point, and provide at least an estimate of the cost of packaging
and shipping. Can whatever this thing is be plastic wrapped and stored
in a basement / garage in-country until we can make some arrangements??

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Pompeii's Insula model
From:	Oplontian@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:49:40 EST

Salvete,
I saw the Insula of Menander model when it was exhibited in Chicago twenty
years ago. If the model is still in reasonably good condition it would
certainly be worth saving. In fact, it would be an excellant object for Nova
Roma to acquire. Aargh!!! This is so frustrating, that something like this
should suddenly become available and there is probably no practical way that
we can get our hands on it. Is the museum required to give it to another
institution, or can they give it to anyone who is willing to take it off their
hands ? If by some miracle we could actually gain possession of the model,
then the biggest problem would be transporting and storing it away somewhere
until we could decide what to do with it. Even when disassembled it would
take up most of the space in the average garage. Perhaps our British citizens
might be persuaded to make inquiries on Nova Roma's behalf ? In case anyone
is not familiar with the model - it is a scale model of a block of houses in
Pompeii. The principal house in the block is the House of Menander, a large
and elegant house which is fully detailed in the model with all of its rooms,
gardens, decor, etc. This is just a coincidence, but the House of Menander is
believed to have belonged to a certain Quintus Poppaeus, an item which I had
forgotten until I came across it in the exhibition catalog a few minutes ago.
Really.
Valete,
Quintus Poppaeus Sabinus

Subject:	Re: Dues? No. Planning? Yes.
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:52:35 -0500 (EST)

Another view can be taken that something that is free is worth very
little, no matter how noble he cause. That lesson is taugt at
everyevent where people gather. free handouts are discarded in mass,
but handouts that cost a cent or two are tucked in bagas to take home.

I agree that it would be difficult to assess members in foriegn
countries because of the exchange problem, but maybe those people would
be willing to pledge to some amount of work within the NR.

I have heard it said that we havve the capability to raise the funds
that we need through the Macellum and through donations, but I do not
see it happening in sufficient amount to allow us to plan effetively.
I too would like to do this without resorting to a dues requirement, but
it simply is not happening to the extent that we require, and there does
not seem to be any planning in the mill for the bettering of it.

It looks as though some sort of tithing will be required.unless a better
idea comes along, but I think that we should set some kind of deadline
as we owe some bills and they must be taken care of.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Dues? No. Planning? Yes.
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:57:09 -0500 (EST)

Another cute little saying might be "What worth enthusiasm without
commitment?" I equate commitment to time, effort, and financial
donations, as anyone may be able to afford. Wealth may be measured in
many ways, and I have yet to meet a totally bankrupt Nova Roman.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Dues? No. Planning? Yes.
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:58:27 -0600 (CST)

Well friends, when is the coin project expected to be
started/completed??? What about stamps??? I don't really think paying
dues is the way to go either, but I think there should be a suggestion
made as to what a citizen should contribute if the ability is there. If
everyone had given a mere $10 or $20 upon gaining citizenship, we'd be
fairly well of for a first year.

I also find nothing wrong in looking at all legitimate ways of
raising money including finding items for sale especially for people in
the wider pagan community or even someone like me just standing outside
Lambeau Field selling wholesale Packer hats at a game-- whatever. Why
limit ourselves whatsoever??? It seems to me there is a world full of
people out there looking to spend their money, and why not consider
anything sound that will enhance our coffers and allow us to build the
things that we wish to get done. Roman themed items might be very, very
nice but it is income limiting too. Most of the funds on such items
would come right from us- the citizens. Could I be wrong? We need a much
wider range of ability in developing products for our sale to the
general public. Getting wholesale and closeout products is not a problem
and our revenues could increase very quickly especially with only a few
people donating their valuable time.

Is anyone else agreeable to this??? How about a t-shirt design with
a more general pagan theme that could be sold through Nova Roma as a
Nova Roma product? - or a pagan hat or engraved cups or pens or
whatever. This by its very nature would introduce more people from the
general pagan population to Nova Roma and at least gain us some more
recognition and revenues from that community while offering some
worthwhile products. -- I really think there is some promise in acting
on this- I don't see how it would be possible to lose-- do any of you?

Subject:	Re: Pompeii's Insula model
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:59:15 -0600 (CST)

On 02/09/99 19:56:00 you wrote:
>
>This sounds like a worthy project for the outreach/charitable arm of Nova
>Roma. O Great Senators, would you care to pick someone to investigate
>what this thing is, whether it's worth saving, how much it would cost to
>transport it? If you decide that the project is within our reach, perhaps
>another volunteer could be found to canvass museums and colleges to find
>it a home. I expect someone would be glad to take it if we paid the
>shipping.

It's fabulous, and I wish there was some way to overcome the logistics.
I saw it when the Pompeii 79 A.D. exhibit came around.

I don't know how we'd persuade another Museum to take it, though -- they have enough storage troubles with their
own exhibits. But who do we call to tell them NOT to throw it out, that we want it and we're trying to do
something about it?

-- Claudia



"My life may suck,
but at least I'm not a guest on Jerry Springer."