| Subject: |
Taxes |
| From: |
Gail and Thomas Gangale <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:08:18 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salvete onmes.
>(I know some people on this list
>think I'm a Nazi-Fascist-Right Wing-Extremist-Fundamentalist who just happens
>to be gay... yeah, alright...whatever!) But I'm not.
What? Does this mean that you no longer favor nuking the disabled commie
lesbian unborn whales of color? Say it ain't so! What good is a fasces
anymore if there are no fascists left?
But seriously, Quirites....
I rise in support of Dexippus's remarks. All governments have to make tough
choices, and Nova Roma, if it is indeed to evolve as a functioning
government, will repeatedly find that it is not exempt from these
tribulations. I know this may offend the sensibilities of some, but all
taxation ultimately depends upon coercion. It is never voluntary. There is
always some sanction, some penalty, attached to nonpayment.
Now, I am new to Nova Roma, and it is very possible that I am overlooking
something. However, it is obvious that we do not have an Internal Revenue
Service, that we do not have tax farmers under contract to the State, that
we do not have Guido the Arm-breaker to enforce payment. And who, except
for the most notorious fascists among us, would want any of this?
So I think it is safe to say that our Republic has a comparatively narrow
field of options as regards to tax collection. One obvious lever of power
is the right to vote. The proposition is simple: taxation equals
representation. Some call this a poll tax. Very well -- I am all for
calling things what they are. But this should not have the same odium
attached to it that the poll tax deservedly has in American history. Our
intent, after all, is not to disenfranchise a huge class of people out of
malice or for political advantage; rather, we are seeking a straightforward
and steady means of financing the Republic. Furthermore, since no one has a
say in where they are born, it is arguably a violation of human rights to
deny the franchise on the basis of poverty in a macronation, since those who
are so destitute are least able to vote with their feet. This is not the
case in Nova Roma. Each of us is a naturalized citizen, each of us has
freely chosen to assume the obligations of citizenship, without reservation
or purpose of evasion. The rules of the game will change as the Republic
evolves, and changes may come along which are not to the liking of some.
This is in the nature of things, and I see no great evil in it. No one's
human rights will be trampled, for there are no barriers to seeking
residence in a micronation more to one's liking.
This is not to say that I am eager to show anyone the door, especially given
that I myself have just recently arrived! Quite the contrary, I wish there
were a kinder, gentler course that I thought would be effective in
financially sustaining the Republic. But as the distinguished Dexippus has
said, we much arrive at a solution that represents "the greater good and the
greater whole."
Now, who among us became a citizen of our Republic for the sole purpose of
casting a ballot once a year? Obviously, there are so many other ways of
participating in the life of Nova Roma and of contributing to her growth.
Should we drive away those who are active contributors to the commonwealth,
but who either choose not to or cannot pay taxes? I say, "No." I also say
that no shame should be heaped upon them, and I regret that my earlier
reference to the Capite Censi may have been construed in this manner.
Gibbon referred to the condition of the legionary as that of "an honorable
poverty." This condition is often true of a student as well. And is not a
student, in a sense, one who has enlisted in service of the future? Is it
not therefore in the interest of the Republic to encourage students to
become and to remain citizens of Nova Roma?
The passion of her protestations has convinced me of Cypria's sincerity.
Having come to the aforementioned conclusion, and having publicly abused her
in the course of arriving at that conclusion, I would consider it not only a
civic duty but also a personal obligation to pay Cypria's tax when the time
comes. Moreover, Gibbon's mention of "Your Gravity" as a form of address in
the 4th century reminds me of a pressing need to forego more than a few pizzas.
May the gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
Valete.
M. Mala Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>
The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>
The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>
The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>
World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: OT (like RE-ally) but Fun |
| From: |
Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:19:27 -0800 (PST) |
|
Bravo, Razenna! This moment of levity was timely indeed!
Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>
The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>
The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>
The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>
World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Taxes |
| From: |
"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:05:24 -0500 |
|
Salvete Gangali et alii
:From: Gail and Thomas Gangale <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
::
:I rise in support of Dexippus's remarks. All governments have to make
tough
:choices, and Nova Roma, if it is indeed to evolve as a functioning
:government, will repeatedly find that it is not exempt from these
:tribulations. I know this may offend the sensibilities of some, but all
:taxation ultimately depends upon coercion. It is never voluntary. There
is
:always some sanction, some penalty, attached to nonpayment.
So, you're all for state coercion in Nova Roma. Well, I'm not, and I bet
that I am far from being alone in that respect. I did not become a citizen
here to pay taxes, but to share my admiration for Rome and learn from others
with somewhat similar interests. Macronations coerce their citizens into
paying taxes; yes, I can accept that truth. But that does not mean that we
should adopt the practice here.
:
:Now, I am new to Nova Roma, and it is very possible that I am overlooking
:something. However, it is obvious that we do not have an Internal Revenue
:Service, that we do not have tax farmers under contract to the State, that
:we do not have Guido the Arm-breaker to enforce payment. And who, except
:for the most notorious fascists among us, would want any of this?
I have been called a fascist, but even I do not want any of those things in
Nova Roma! But since you brought it up, well, if a tax is instituted,
measures will have to be put in place to collect it and penalize those who
do not pay. What a benefit to us all!
:
:So I think it is safe to say that our Republic has a comparatively narrow
:field of options as regards to tax collection. One obvious lever of power
:is the right to vote. The proposition is simple: taxation equals
:representation. Some call this a poll tax
-------small deletion--------
Furthermore, since no one has a
:say in where they are born, it is arguably a violation of human rights to
:deny the franchise on the basis of poverty in a macronation, since those
who
:are so destitute are least able to vote with their feet. This is not the
:case in Nova Roma. Each of us is a naturalized citizen, each of us has
:freely chosen to assume the obligations of citizenship, without reservation
:or purpose of evasion.
There is truth in what you say above, but you have ignored a couple of
things:
1. As of now, all citizens join by intent; in the future, there may be
citizens who are born into Nova Roma, particularly if some of our goals are
achieved. I know that this is a long way off, but it is nevertheless
relevant. If we institute a poll tax now, other taxes and forms of coercion
will follow until this Republic is no more; actually, if your poll tax is
adopted in the near future, I doubt that anyone will ever become a citizen
of Nova Roma by birth.
2. Everyone who has become a citizen thus far has become a citizen of a
Republic without taxes and state coercion.
The rules of the game will change as the Republic
:evolves, and changes may come along which are not to the liking of some.
:This is in the nature of things, and I see no great evil in it. No one's
:human rights will be trampled, for there are no barriers to seeking
:residence in a micronation more to one's liking.
No great evil, certainly. Not much good either though. I wonder, will you
ever drop this? Or will you only be satisfied when people start "seeking
residence in micronations more to their liking"?
:
:This is not to say that I am eager to show anyone the door, especially
given
:that I myself have just recently arrived! Quite the contrary, I wish there
:were a kinder, gentler course that I thought would be effective in
:financially sustaining the Republic. But as the distinguished Dexippus has
:said, we much arrive at a solution that represents "the greater good and
the
:greater whole."
Excuse me Gangali, but there is another way: do not tax citizens of Nova
Roma. If you're that concerned about Nova Roma's financial welfare, send
her some more money (of course you are already sending money -- nobody would
make so many speeches in favor of taxes without contributing money
themselves, without first covering all the mirrors in their household)
:
---deletion-----
:
:The passion of her protestations has convinced me of Cypria's sincerity.
:Having come to the aforementioned conclusion, and having publicly abused
her
:in the course of arriving at that conclusion, I would consider it not only
a
:civic duty but also a personal obligation to pay Cypria's tax when the time
:comes.
That's nice. I assume that you have talked this over with her...of course,
it's none of my business...except that you are posting all this to the
forum, which is everyone's business. I really do not want to know whose
taxes you or anyone else is paying, nor can I imagine how anyone would want
it made public that their taxes were being covered by some benefactor.
Moreover, Gibbon's mention of "Your Gravity" as a form of address in
:the 4th century reminds me of a pressing need to forego more than a few
pizzas.
?
So, because economic hardship was widespread and overwhelming in the later
Roman empire, we should somehow get in touch with that reality by imposing
taxes on each other? Since you have brought up antiquity now as an argument
for taxation, however convincingly or otherwise, I'd like to ask you, how
and when were taxes levied on citizens in the Republic?
:
:May the gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
-- from taxes.
I say again, if any of us can afford it and feels concern for Nova Roma's
financial welfare, nothing stops any of us from sending in donations to the
Maine address on the website. All of us who are able and willing can also
provide financial support by buying books and statuary from the Macellum and
jewelry from Pythia. All of these things work and are already in place.
:
:Valete.
:
:M. Mala Gangalius
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
:-------------
|
| Subject: |
Re: Taxes |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:16:14 EST |
|
In a message dated 2/20/99 11:08:32 AM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a> writes:
<< Does this mean that you no longer favor nuking the disabled commie
lesbian unborn whales of color? >>
Only the non-english speaking ones! LOL
(get a grip all...it's a joke)
Gangales...thank you for a well spoken post.
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Taxes |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:28:50 EST |
|
In a message dated 2/20/99 3:11:41 PM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:
<< So, you're all for state coercion in Nova Roma. Well, I'm not, and I bet
that I am far from being alone in that respect. I did not become a citizen
here to pay taxes, but to share my admiration for Rome and learn from others
with somewhat similar interests. >>
Merullus...lighten up...get yourself a good stiff drink like I suggested and
stop making those who disagree with you seem like the Devil with a Blue Dress
On!
If you joined only to share your admiration for Rome then you joined a club.
Most of us here joined up as a citizen to accomplish something larger..doing
so is going to cost some buck.
<<Excuse me Gangali, but there is another way: do not tax citizens of Nova
Roma. If you're that concerned about Nova Roma's financial welfare, send
her some more money (of course you are already sending money -- nobody would
make so many speeches in favor of taxes without contributing money
themselves, without first covering all the mirrors in their household)>>
and
<>
I say why should it be only a select few that carry the financial burden of
Nova Roma? Why should we be made to feel compelled to by books only so a
small portion goes to the treasury? What's needed is a system where everyone
contributes equally on a foundation and then the other forms of income become
incremental and a bonus.
Again...12 freakin' dollars? All this talk over $12.00! CALGON TAKE ME AWAY!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Taxes |
| From: |
dean6886@--------) |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:08:48 -0600 (CST) |
|
Again, what on earth is the big deal about 12 dollars. It's so
simple- for one that can't afford it write a note or e-mail to the
appropriate magistrate with one simple statement " please waive my
yearly $12.00 payment"---- DONE!- no questions asked and private at
that. That's all it should be. Will anyone take advantage of that?---
Maybe but big deal. For most of us if we can afford it we'll send it
otherwise a proper message should be written with the previous
statement. How hard is this really? No need to penalize people and make
people feel inadequate for all their peers. No need for disciplinary
measures. We are just looking for a way to raise some capital, not
exclude anyone at anything for any reason. Is everyone OK with this.
How about foreign currency issues too and conversion rates. THe
Euro-dollar? Keeping money raised in Europe in Europe for developement?
-- and in Australia and elsewhere. Opinions?
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Taxes |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:08:35 -0500 |
|
Salvete Quirites
Sorry for leaving so much from the previous posts.
>:From: Gail and Thomas Gangale <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
>::
>:I rise in support of Dexippus's remarks. All governments have to make
>tough
>:choices, and Nova Roma, if it is indeed to evolve as a functioning
>:government, will repeatedly find that it is not exempt from these
>:tribulations.
LEC; No we sure aren't! :-)
>
>So, you're all for state coercion in Nova Roma.
LEC: Any law will have to be backed up by some form of penalty or it is
usless.
> Well, I'm not, and I bet
>that I am far from being alone in that respect. I did not become a citizen
>here to pay taxes, but to share my admiration for Rome and learn from
others
>with somewhat similar interests. Macronations coerce their citizens into
>paying taxes; yes, I can accept that truth. But that does not mean that
we
>should adopt the practice here.
>:
LEC; We may have to if we want everone to comply.
>:Now, I am new to Nova Roma, and it is very possible that I am overlooking
>:something. However, it is obvious that we do not have an Internal Revenue
>:Service, that we do not have tax farmers under contract to the State, that
>:we do not have Guido the Arm-breaker to enforce payment. And who, except
>:for the most notorious fascists among us, would want any of this?
>
>I have been called a fascist, but even I do not want any of those things in
>Nova Roma! But since you brought it up, well, if a tax is instituted,
>measures will have to be put in place to collect it and penalize those who
>do not pay. What a benefit to us all!
LEC; Yes everyone should be the same under the law.
>:
>:So I think it is safe to say that our Republic has a comparatively narrow
>:field of options as regards to tax collection. One obvious lever of power
>:is the right to vote. The proposition is simple: taxation equals
>:representation. Some call this a poll tax
>-------small deletion--------
>Furthermore, since no one has a
>:say in where they are born, it is arguably a violation of human rights to
>:deny the franchise on the basis of poverty in a macronation, since those
>who
>:are so destitute are least able to vote with their feet. This is not the
>:case in Nova Roma. Each of us is a naturalized citizen, each of us has
>:freely chosen to assume the obligations of citizenship, without
reservation
>:or purpose of evasion.
>
LEC; Yes, no one is forced to do anything.
>There is truth in what you say above, but you have ignored a couple of
>things:
>
>1. As of now, all citizens join by intent; in the future, there may be
>citizens who are born into Nova Roma, particularly if some of our goals are
>achieved. I know that this is a long way off, but it is nevertheless
>relevant. If we institute a poll tax now, other taxes and forms of
coercion
>will follow until this Republic is no more;
LEC; What?
>
>2. Everyone who has become a citizen thus far has become a citizen of a
>Republic without taxes and state coercion.
>
LEC; So we should maintain the status quo with the burden of maintaining
NovaRoma on the shoulders of a few?
>The rules of the game will change as the Republic
>:evolves, and changes may come along which are not to the liking of some.
>:This is in the nature of things, and I see no great evil in it. No one's
>:human rights will be trampled, for there are no barriers to seeking
>:residence in a micronation more to one's liking.
>
>No great evil, certainly. Not much good either though. I wonder, will you
>ever drop this? Or will you only be satisfied when people start "seeking
>residence in micronations more to their liking"?
LEC; Really, there is no reason to make this personal.
>:
>:This is not to say that I am eager to show anyone the door, especially
>given
>:that I myself have just recently arrived! Quite the contrary, I wish
there
>:were a kinder, gentler course that I thought would be effective in
>:financially sustaining the Republic. But as the distinguished Dexippus
has
>:said, we much arrive at a solution that represents "the greater good and
>the
>:greater whole."
>
>Excuse me Gangali, but there is another way: do not tax citizens of Nova
>Roma. If you're that concerned about Nova Roma's financial welfare, send
>her some more money (of course you are already sending money -- nobody
would
>make so many speeches in favor of taxes without contributing money
>themselves, without first covering all the mirrors in their household)
>:
>---deletion-----
>:
>:The passion of her protestations has convinced me of Cypria's sincerity.
>:Having come to the aforementioned conclusion, and having publicly abused
>her
>:in the course of arriving at that conclusion, I would consider it not only
>a
>:civic duty but also a personal obligation to pay Cypria's tax when the
time
>:comes.
>
>That's nice. I assume that you have talked this over with her...of course,
>it's none of my business...except that you are posting all this to the
>forum, which is everyone's business. I really do not want to know whose
>taxes you or anyone else is paying, nor can I imagine how anyone would want
>it made public that their taxes were being covered by some benefactor.
>
LEC; Good Grief, I think I will take the offer of M. Mala Gangalius in the
spirt in which it it offered.
Also this may be a form of Patron/Client that was a fine example of
Roman
culture.
>:
>:May the gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
>
LEC; Ita volunt, Ita est!
>-- from taxes.
>
LEC; :-) he he, very clever
>I say again, if any of us can afford it and feels concern for Nova Roma's
>financial welfare, nothing stops any of us from sending in donations to the
>Maine address on the website. All of us who are able and willing can also
>provide financial support by buying books and statuary from the Macellum
and
>jewelry from Pythia. All of these things work and are already in place.
LEC; No, they do not work or we would not be having this discussion. As far
as I know there are still T-shirts left from last years Roman Days, which
are fine T-shirts BTW.
However, any tax/dues/whatever you want to call it, will have to be
brought before either the Comitia Centuriata or the Comitia Populi and then
be ratified by the Senate before it would become law.
I now have a citizen list that was sent to me by Senatrix F Claudia
that consists of 201 entries and of those eleven (11) have no name, (Gens
Nemo or capita censi), I am waiting for the censores to send me the lists
that they have of more recent applications then we may begin to form these
committees so that citizens may begin to do their part by voting!
I myself am in favor of some form of tax/poll tax. If you have the
right to vote on how the money is spent then you should have contributed
some, no?
I must agree with Dexippus et alii, $5-$10-$12 per annus, is that so
much?
Just a spur of the moment idea...How about $5 poll tax and $10 you get a
year of the Eagle too? Or just the Eagle for $7?
I am not in favor of a tax on citizenship though. This is not a either
or situation unless there are those who are unwilling to compromise. We are
all citizens and have the right to express our opinion here in the forum in
a civilized way. Let us refrain from ad hominum expressions and stay with
the issues please.
Valete, L Equitius Cincinnatus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Taxes |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:19:46 -0800 |
|
Salve,
I agree completely with out Consul, we must make this moderate and reasonable.
However the Status Quo should not continue. No one has even mentioned just how
much money was needed to get NR up and to keep it running? Well if no one wants
to ask that question, I now request for the sake of informing our Citzens. How
much has been spent, approximately to date to get Nova Roma up and running?
This might help shed some light on this issue.
Just my 2 cents. :)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanis
Lucius wrote:
> From: "Lucius" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
>
> Salvete Quirites
>
> Sorry for leaving so much from the previous posts.
>
> >:From: Gail and Thomas Gangale <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
> >::
> >:I rise in support of Dexippus's remarks. All governments have to make
> >tough
> >:choices, and Nova Roma, if it is indeed to evolve as a functioning
> >:government, will repeatedly find that it is not exempt from these
> >:tribulations.
>
> LEC; No we sure aren't! :-)
> >
> >So, you're all for state coercion in Nova Roma.
>
> LEC: Any law will have to be backed up by some form of penalty or it is
> usless.
>
> > Well, I'm not, and I bet
> >that I am far from being alone in that respect. I did not become a citizen
> >here to pay taxes, but to share my admiration for Rome and learn from
> others
> >with somewhat similar interests. Macronations coerce their citizens into
> >paying taxes; yes, I can accept that truth. But that does not mean that
> we
> >should adopt the practice here.
> >:
> LEC; We may have to if we want everone to comply.
>
> >:Now, I am new to Nova Roma, and it is very possible that I am overlooking
> >:something. However, it is obvious that we do not have an Internal Revenue
> >:Service, that we do not have tax farmers under contract to the State, that
> >:we do not have Guido the Arm-breaker to enforce payment. And who, except
> >:for the most notorious fascists among us, would want any of this?
> >
> >I have been called a fascist, but even I do not want any of those things in
> >Nova Roma! But since you brought it up, well, if a tax is instituted,
> >measures will have to be put in place to collect it and penalize those who
> >do not pay. What a benefit to us all!
>
> LEC; Yes everyone should be the same under the law.
> >:
> >:So I think it is safe to say that our Republic has a comparatively narrow
> >:field of options as regards to tax collection. One obvious lever of power
> >:is the right to vote. The proposition is simple: taxation equals
> >:representation. Some call this a poll tax
> >-------small deletion--------
> >Furthermore, since no one has a
> >:say in where they are born, it is arguably a violation of human rights to
> >:deny the franchise on the basis of poverty in a macronation, since those
> >who
> >:are so destitute are least able to vote with their feet. This is not the
> >:case in Nova Roma. Each of us is a naturalized citizen, each of us has
> >:freely chosen to assume the obligations of citizenship, without
> reservation
> >:or purpose of evasion.
> >
> LEC; Yes, no one is forced to do anything.
>
> >There is truth in what you say above, but you have ignored a couple of
> >things:
> >
> >1. As of now, all citizens join by intent; in the future, there may be
> >citizens who are born into Nova Roma, particularly if some of our goals are
> >achieved. I know that this is a long way off, but it is nevertheless
> >relevant. If we institute a poll tax now, other taxes and forms of
> coercion
> >will follow until this Republic is no more;
>
> LEC; What?
> >
> >2. Everyone who has become a citizen thus far has become a citizen of a
> >Republic without taxes and state coercion.
> >
> LEC; So we should maintain the status quo with the burden of maintaining
> NovaRoma on the shoulders of a few?
>
> >The rules of the game will change as the Republic
> >:evolves, and changes may come along which are not to the liking of some.
> >:This is in the nature of things, and I see no great evil in it. No one's
> >:human rights will be trampled, for there are no barriers to seeking
> >:residence in a micronation more to one's liking.
> >
> >No great evil, certainly. Not much good either though. I wonder, will you
> >ever drop this? Or will you only be satisfied when people start "seeking
> >residence in micronations more to their liking"?
>
> LEC; Really, there is no reason to make this personal.
> >:
> >:This is not to say that I am eager to show anyone the door, especially
> >given
> >:that I myself have just recently arrived! Quite the contrary, I wish
> there
> >:were a kinder, gentler course that I thought would be effective in
> >:financially sustaining the Republic. But as the distinguished Dexippus
> has
> >:said, we much arrive at a solution that represents "the greater good and
> >the
> >:greater whole."
> >
> >Excuse me Gangali, but there is another way: do not tax citizens of Nova
> >Roma. If you're that concerned about Nova Roma's financial welfare, send
> >her some more money (of course you are already sending money -- nobody
> would
> >make so many speeches in favor of taxes without contributing money
> >themselves, without first covering all the mirrors in their household)
> >:
> >---deletion-----
> >:
> >:The passion of her protestations has convinced me of Cypria's sincerity.
> >:Having come to the aforementioned conclusion, and having publicly abused
> >her
> >:in the course of arriving at that conclusion, I would consider it not only
> >a
> >:civic duty but also a personal obligation to pay Cypria's tax when the
> time
> >:comes.
> >
> >That's nice. I assume that you have talked this over with her...of course,
> >it's none of my business...except that you are posting all this to the
> >forum, which is everyone's business. I really do not want to know whose
> >taxes you or anyone else is paying, nor can I imagine how anyone would want
> >it made public that their taxes were being covered by some benefactor.
> >
> LEC; Good Grief, I think I will take the offer of M. Mala Gangalius in the
> spirt in which it it offered.
> Also this may be a form of Patron/Client that was a fine example of
> Roman
> culture.
> >:
> >:May the gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
> >
> LEC; Ita volunt, Ita est!
>
> >-- from taxes.
> >
> LEC; :-) he he, very clever
>
> >I say again, if any of us can afford it and feels concern for Nova Roma's
> >financial welfare, nothing stops any of us from sending in donations to the
> >Maine address on the website. All of us who are able and willing can also
> >provide financial support by buying books and statuary from the Macellum
> and
> >jewelry from Pythia. All of these things work and are already in place.
>
> LEC; No, they do not work or we would not be having this discussion. As far
> as I know there are still T-shirts left from last years Roman Days, which
> are fine T-shirts BTW.
> However, any tax/dues/whatever you want to call it, will have to be
> brought before either the Comitia Centuriata or the Comitia Populi and then
> be ratified by the Senate before it would become law.
> I now have a citizen list that was sent to me by Senatrix F Claudia
> that consists of 201 entries and of those eleven (11) have no name, (Gens
> Nemo or capita censi), I am waiting for the censores to send me the lists
> that they have of more recent applications then we may begin to form these
> committees so that citizens may begin to do their part by voting!
> I myself am in favor of some form of tax/poll tax. If you have the
> right to vote on how the money is spent then you should have contributed
> some, no?
> I must agree with Dexippus et alii, $5-$10-$12 per annus, is that so
> much?
> Just a spur of the moment idea...How about $5 poll tax and $10 you get a
> year of the Eagle too? Or just the Eagle for $7?
> I am not in favor of a tax on citizenship though. This is not a either
> or situation unless there are those who are unwilling to compromise. We are
> all citizens and have the right to express our opinion here in the forum in
> a civilized way. Let us refrain from ad hominum expressions and stay with
> the issues please.
>
> Valete, L Equitius Cincinnatus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come see our new web site! <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
My position and the Nevada Legio |
| From: |
"Vartarius Quentius" sikkens@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:25:26 -0800 |
|
Salve!
This message is being sent to all of my friends from the Roman world. Due to a promotion at work, I am sad to inform everyone that I will not be able to continue with my position as Centerio of Legio I / Nevada.
Our new commander will be Marius, <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=029166091009194233015147190036129" >marius@--------</a> . Please contact him for all future info.
I will still continue to be a citizen of and support Nova Roma - I just don't have the time to run the legio anymore.
Vale,
Vartarius Quentius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Taxes or what I pay to belong |
| From: |
Asseri@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:25:31 EST |
|
Salve,
I belong to several groups.
Thes SCA is atleast 25 a year and I would rather pay 35 or so to get the extra
publications.
The Pern fan groups is 15-20 a year and I belong to two.
My elfquest groups are 12 a year and then I pay for each zine as it come out.
if it is the word "taxs" or the fact that for Nova Roma to be more than cyber
space activity it takes funds.
If nova Roma wants me to tithe $12.00 a year so be it. I guess there are far
worse things I could spend the money .. like junk food or movies..
Pax
P.A. Olivia
|
| Subject: |
Chess |
| From: |
dean6886@--------) |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:26:46 -0600 (CST) |
|
Has anyone ever seen a Roman style chess set? What was it made of
along with the board? I'm not sure anything of its kind exists.
Anyone by chance ever play a version of one of the traditional
Roman board games even though I understand most rules for many games
were lost. We're going to have to look into a game and sport sodales on
of these days.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Chess |
| From: |
Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:50:45 -0800 (PST) |
|
At 09:26 PM 2/20/99 -0600, Dean Troy wrote:
>From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)
>
>
> Has anyone ever seen a Roman style chess set? What was it made of
>along with the board? I'm not sure anything of its kind exists.
>
> Anyone by chance ever play a version of one of the traditional
>Roman board games even though I understand most rules for many games
>were lost. We're going to have to look into a game and sport sodales on
>of these days.
>
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>
Vale Gaius Drusus Domitianus.
I know of one Roman style chess set. It dates from the early 1970s during
the Bobby Fischer craze. My grandparents gave me the set, and it's still
somewhere in my house. The pieces are plastic, black and white, and the
board is cardboard with gold and black squares. The pieces are:
King Augustus
Queen Livia
Bishop Cicero (a real bad historical mistake here!)
Knight celere
Rook a column with three Carthaginian ships embedded in it
Pawn legionary
A very handsome set. I don't know who produced it.
M. Mala Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>
The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>
The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>
The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>
World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Chess |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:08:00 -0500 |
|
Salve,
Has anyone ever seen a Roman style chess set? What was it made of
along with the board? I'm not sure anything of its kind exists.
Yes, check out this site.
<a href="http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/roma/latruncu.html" target="_top" >http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/roma/latruncu.html</a>
Anyone by chance ever play a version of one of the traditional
Roman board games even though I understand most rules for many games
were lost. We're going to have to look into a game and sport sodales on
of these days.
Marcus Equitius and I have played a few games ( we made our own boards and
peices for part of our Legio XX impression) using the rules provided on the
Site mentioned above and it is a fun and easy game to learn and play.
Vale L Equitius Cincinnatus
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
select the Member Center link from the menu bar on the left.
|
| Subject: |
Taxes and penalties |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:32:11 EST |
|
Salvete omnes!
I agree with all who have said we need to levy taxes in order to support
the Republic. I think $12 is a reasonable minimum to ask for.
I DO NOT agree with making citizenship or voting rights contingent upon
payment. I don't think it is either appropriate or necessary to penalize
those who don't perform their civic duty in this respect. Obviously,
those who don't pay either cannot, in which case there is no point in
beating up on them, or choose not to, which suggests that they don't
agree with the goals of the organization. In the latter case, they may
well leave of their own accord. If they don't, they might still
contribute something of value as non-paying "hangers on."
Perhaps Nova Roma can point the way toward a society built on something
other than coercion and force. Certainly, we have enough history by now
to prove conclusively that coercion and force aren't successful bases for
a society!
Valete,
L. Sergius Aust.
|
| Subject: |
A subject OTHER than Taxes!!!! |
| From: |
Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia iuliacaesaria@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:02:21 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salvete Omnes,
As most of you are aware of, Lucius Cornelius Sulla and I have been a
couple for over 3 months now. And previously, we made the announcment
that I will be coming to the States in July for a few months. Well,
plans, as they have a tendancy to do, have changed. For a few reasons
that I really dont want to get into. But for the sake of information
here are the new changes that Sulla and I have mutually decided.
1) OK I will be moving out to California in June
2) I will be moving down here permanently, Sulla and I will be living
together while I finish up my schooling....and begin college.
3) Sulla and I will be officially engaged. We both love each other, and
well, we both have talked about this for a few months now.
And, we wanted our extended family (Nova Roma) to know and wish us good
luck. Well thats our announcement.
Valete
Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia
and
Lucius Cornelius Sulla
==
Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia
Materfamilias of the Gens Iulia Caesaria
Meum est propositum
in taberna mori
ut sint vina proxima
morientes ori
|
| Subject: |
Re: A subject OTHER than Taxes!!!! |
| From: |
Megas-Robinson amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:07:29 -0600 |
|
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((NOCT'A)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Mia Amica!!!!!!
I say to Thee, Well Come to the Colonies!!!
My very Best Wishes to you and Sulla.
In Amicus et Fidelis - Uncle Venator
Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia wrote:
> From: Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=210075235009158194169038000140172089134098100046209130" >iuliacaesaria@--------</a>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> As most of you are aware of, Lucius Cornelius Sulla and I have been a
> couple for over 3 months now. And previously, we made the announcment
> that I will be coming to the States in July for a few months. Well,
> plans, as they have a tendancy to do, have changed. For a few reasons
> that I really dont want to get into. But for the sake of information
> here are the new changes that Sulla and I have mutually decided.
>
> 1) OK I will be moving out to California in June
>
> 2) I will be moving down here permanently, Sulla and I will be living
> together while I finish up my schooling....and begin college.
>
> 3) Sulla and I will be officially engaged. We both love each other, and
> well, we both have talked about this for a few months now.
>
> And, we wanted our extended family (Nova Roma) to know and wish us good
> luck. Well thats our announcement.
>
> Valete
>
> Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia
> and
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla
> ==
> Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia
> Materfamilias of the Gens Iulia Caesaria
>
> Meum est propositum
> in taberna mori
> ut sint vina proxima
> morientes ori
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Have you seen our new web site? <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Taxes |
| From: |
Megas-Robinson amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:17:11 -0600 |
|
Avete Omnes;
This is a good suggestion. If Nova Roma is truly to be and remain a
worldwide nation of New Romans, then we must think to the adminstration of
the separate continents.
Valete - Venator
Dean Troy wrote:
> (snip)
> How about foreign currency issues too and conversion rates. THe
> Euro-dollar? Keeping money raised in Europe in Europe for developement?
> -- and in Australia and elsewhere. Opinions?
>
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Taxes |
| From: |
Megas-Robinson amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:46:33 -0600 |
|
Avete Omnes;
If I may. My personal contribution to this debate.
On Thursday the IIIrd day after the Ides of Februarius MMDCCLI AUC,
I, Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator, Cives - Paterfamilias - Quaestor -
Dominus Sodalis,
sent unto Nova Roma a self imposed "tax" of a sesterce (US $1.00) per
week of my citizenship in Nova Roma. This dated from the last week of
Quintilis MMDCCLI AUC to the last week of Decembris MMDCCLII AUC, a
total of LXXVI weeks ($76.00).
I can afford to do this.
I am in favor of the Consuls or Tribune Plebis being able to grant
waivers (privately applied for and granted or denied) from taxation for
any Current Era calender year. I would be loathe to lose any of our
Cives who have shown a passion for Nova Rome, due only to a temporary
inability to pay a tax in support of the Nation.
But, as a Paterfamilias, if any should choose to join my Gens, I
shall be responsible for my family members who can not individually pay
their due to the State. I shall, within reason, give them a grant from
my resources so they may give unto Nova Rome in their own name. But, I
would expect that adult members of my Gens do their level best to
discharge their own Duty to the State from their own resources, and be
responsible for the children of their own bodies.
Also, I have (I hope) finished the Mead Manuel. I have submitted
the booklet to a willing Roman for review and critique. I am asking a
donation to Nova Rome of US $5.00 per copy, plus US $3.00 shipping and
handling. This has grown from the trifold brochure which I initially
envisioned to a 24 page booklet (8.5" x 11", including cover and 2
blank note pages). I shall donate up to 100 copies for the good of Nova
Rome. This shall, Gods willing, gain Nova Rome US $500.00.
In Amicus et Fidelis - Roma Resurgans - Venator
|
| Subject: |
Re: Taxes |
| From: |
Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:21:26 -0800 (PST) |
|
At 05:08 PM 2/20/99 -0600, Dean Troy wrote:
>From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)
>
> Again, what on earth is the big deal about 12 dollars. It's so
>simple- for one that can't afford it write a note or e-mail to the
>appropriate magistrate with one simple statement " please waive my
>yearly $12.00 payment"---- DONE!- no questions asked and private at
>that. That's all it should be. Will anyone take advantage of that?---
>Maybe but big deal. For most of us if we can afford it we'll send it
>otherwise a proper message should be written with the previous
>statement. How hard is this really? No need to penalize people and make
>people feel inadequate for all their peers. No need for disciplinary
>measures. We are just looking for a way to raise some capital, not
>exclude anyone at anything for any reason. Is everyone OK with this.
>
> How about foreign currency issues too and conversion rates. THe
>Euro-dollar? Keeping money raised in Europe in Europe for developement?
>-- and in Australia and elsewhere. Opinions?
>
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>
>
Salve Gaius Drusus Domitianus.
These macronations, with their antiquated geographic boundaries, insular
monetary systems, vexatious exchange rates, postal regulations, customs
laws, ad infinitum, are really starting to get in our way. We're going to
have to do something about them someday.
But meanwhile, regarding the disposition of taxes collected outside of the
American provinces, (well, really, wherever the taxes are collected) I think
that we get the most bang for the buck by keeping the funds in the
macrojuristiction where they are raised. It will be inefficient and
wasteful to transfer these funds across these inconvenient boundaries --
purchasing international money orders, giving some bank a piece of the
action in the conversion process, et cetera. I say, spend the money locally
on worthwhile projects, although the Senate should have some appropriate
level of oversight.
M. Mala Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>
The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>
The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>
The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>
World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>
|
