Subject:	Re: Roman Days
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Fri, 05 Mar 1999 00:12:22 -0500

Whoohooo! Let's talk about caravans... Dex, I'm on the way, right? Perhaps
you could come down this way, then we could meet with some other citizens
who are in the area who are heading down? It takes about two hours for Dex
to get here to Philly from his home. And for the record, I don't have a
care, and I don't drive :-( I never got my license, so I'm attempting to
hitch a ride with someone... Suggestions???

At 13:34 04/03/99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "Lucius" v--------l@--------
>
>Salvete, Omnes
>
>>Ok...now...back to the important stuff...Any further news on Roman Days?
>>--Dexippus
>
>
><a href="http://www.novaroma.org/events.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/events.html</a>
>
>Roman Days will be held June 11-13 at the Marrietta Mansion, same as last
>year.
>Directions can be found on the current events page or by contacting Quintus
>Darius aka Matthew Amt @ amt@--------
>Hope to see you all there!
>
>Valete, Lucius Equitius
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ideas on how we can improve ONElist?
><a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
>Check out the Suggestion Box feature on our new web site
>
Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
Citizen of Nova Roma

----------------------------
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704

Subject:	Re: Reprimand of Lucius Cornelius
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Fri, 05 Mar 1999 00:13:06 -0500

At 15:53 04/03/99 PST, you wrote:
>From: "Patrick Dunn" saevvs@--------
>
>I am repulsed, sadened, and disgusted. Where is virtue? Where is
>honor? Where is *Rome*?
Should we crucify him then? ;-) Just kidding.

>M. Gladius Saevus
>Pontiff
>Augur
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Did you know that we have over 85,000 e-mail communities at Onelist?
><a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
>Come visit our new web site and explore a new interest
>
Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
Citizen of Nova Roma

----------------------------
orbianna@--------

proserpina@--------
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704

Subject:	Re: Roman Days
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:51:11 EST

In a message dated 3/5/99 0:04:49 AM EST, --------er--------@--------
writes:

<< Whoohooo! Let's talk about caravans... Dex, I'm on the way, right? Perhaps
you could come down this way, then we could meet with some other citizens
who are in the area who are heading down? It takes about two hours for Dex
to get here to Philly from his home. And for the record, I don't have a
care, and I don't drive :-( I never got my license, so I'm attempting to
hitch a ride with someone... Suggestions??? >>

Girlfriend...you know if I'm going that you are riding with me! Perhaps we
can share a room too and cut expenses. We can further discuss when we get
together over Ostara weekend.

And to all...a caravan would be sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much fun! Let's
decorate our cars like Roman chariots and drive in single file down to
Maryland!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Reprimand of Lucius Cornelius
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:53:46 EST

In a message dated 3/5/99 0:11:35 AM EST, dean6886@-------- --------es:

<< Any room in the budget for a couple of lions to throw people to? >>

I volunteer Artemis...my 3 year old Shih-Tzu until we have some lions!

She'll lick all you vermon to death! PUPPY LOVINS!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Reprimand of Lucius Cornelius
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:52:22 EST

In a message dated 3/5/99 0:05:14 AM EST, --------er--------@--------
writes:

<< Should we crucify him then? ;-) Just kidding. >>

Oh just let's not go there!

--Dexippus
<<fighting hard to restrain the temptation to give my reply!...maybe on the
Back Alley list!>>

Subject:	Re: Reprimand of Lucius Cornelius
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:55:19 EST

In a message dated 3/5/99 0:24:24 AM EST, dean6886@-------- --------es:

<< I just meant that the posts in the last few months often are
talking about punitive action against whoever. I just wish everything
ran to where the subject of discipline never had to come up and of
course we all know that will probably never be the case based on peoples
actions/human nature. >>

I echo a cry from a previous debate..."Can't We All Just Get Along?"

--Dexippus
<<gotta get that gold lame toga ready for Roman Days!>>

Subject:	Re: On praetors
From:
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 03:12:05 EST

In a message dated 3/4/99 9:53:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rmerullo@-------- writes:

<< Another question, toward any of the armchair historians among us: how was
this done in ancient Rome? It seems to me that sitting magistrates did
attend Senate meetings unless they were out in their provinces wielding
imperium? Did not the magisterial hierarchy have a lot to do with
determination of the order of speakers during Senate deliberations?
Callide, Fabi, Fimbria, anyone? >>
Salvete!
Here is a little on praetors for the education of the public from the ancient
regime.
Vale
Q. Fabius

About Praetors
The word praetor is derived from the Latin "prat-ire" I.E, 'to
lead,' 'to precede.' Livy says it was originally the name offered
by the highest Roman magistrate, who later came to be called
consul.
The praetor's close association with military affairs can be
shown by the use of the adjective praetorius in such expressions
as "praetorian," "cohors praetoria," and "porta praetoria." In
his history Polybios refers to praetors as "archons" (A Greek
military leader & judge). As a general, the praetor was entitled
to command 1/2 a consular army (Two Legiones).

According to tradition a praetor was first elected from the Senate in
366 BCE to supervise the administration of justice in Rome. He came
to be known as the praetor urbanus. By this time the two earlier
praetors would have assumed their new title of consuls.
The view is, that these three original praetors separated their
functions in 366, with two, now called consuls, being responsible
for military affairs, while one (the praetor urbanus) for legal
matters. Though all this is an educated guess, as there is no
literal proof.

Plebeians were banned from the praetorship until 337. With the
cosmopolitan growth of Rome, her relations with foreign powers'
ambassadors dwelling in the city led to the creation (c.
242 BCE) of a second praetor, called the "praetor qui inter
peregrinos ius dicit (abbreviated later to "praetor peregrinus"
who dealt with lawsuits in which either one or both parties were
foreigners.

The confiscation of overseas provinces greatly expanded the
sphere of the praetors' activities, so that in 227 BCE their
number was increased from two to four, to provide for the
administration of Sicily and Sardinia, and to six in
197 BCE, to include supervision of troublesome Spain. By
exercising the supreme provincial authority, the praetors had
became once again military magistrates, and in fact the
distinction of rank and power between them and the consuls
decreased, although the praetor urbanus was subservient to the
consuls; he was still was preceded by six lictors only. He
continued to perform the consuls' functions of summoning the
Senate and supervising the defense of Rome during both consuls'
absence from the city.

By the second century the praetor urbanus and praetor
peregrinus were still elected offices but had declined to chiefly
being only concerned with the administration of justice. The provincial
praetors continued to be Senatorial appointments.

L. Cornelius Sulla, who increased the appointed number praetors'
number to eight, decreed that all of them remained in Rome as
judges, or executives of the "quaestiones" and should proceed to
the governorship of their provinces in the following year. This
was done by the extension of their office (propraetor). Sulla's
reform, while sorely needed, was abolished during the early
period of Augustus reign as it was no longer a necessity, since
Emperor as praetor now made the legatus assignments to provinces.

Although the valuable influence of the praetor urbanus in the
domain of law continued to be significant during the Principate
(thanks to the edict in which it was customary for praetors to
summarize, on taking office, the main tenets of their authority),
the praetorship nevertheless declined rapidly, and its functions
were soon reduced to those of minor rule, i.e. in matters
relating to guardianship, the status of liberty, or financial
duties, which were performed by the praetores aerarii from 23
BCE to CE 44. It eventually became a merely honorary
appointment, the main feature of which was to win the favor of
the Roman populace, by superintending the games provided by him
on taking office. It was finally abolished during Diocletion's
reforms.

- Steve Phenow
@ 1984

Subject:	Law Committee
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 05 Mar 1999 00:48:51 -0800

Salvete Omnes.

I have located a Roman Law Mailing List. It is very intersting.....It
is called: iusromanum mailing list.

Here is a brief description:

IusRomanum was initiated with the intention to create a forum for
scholarly
discussion of all aspects of Roman Law. The list is open to everyone
interested. All postings to the list will be archived. The archive will
be
accessible through the World Wide Web.

If you would like the address to subscribe, please let me know. Or here
is their e-mail address:

iusromanum-request@--------

Valete Omnes...

Subject:	Celebrate History Convention
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 05 Mar 1999 00:55:45 -0800

Salvete Omnes,

As most of you are aware of, on April 9-11 in San Francisco there is the

Celebrate History Convention. I do plan on being there for the entire
convention timeframe. During the course of the Convention, I will be
available at the Nova Roma table passing out the flyers that we have
made up and I will be able to answer questions from the General Public.
If this goes well, which we are preparing and planning for the
Convention since we have been confirmed. This might give Nova Roma a
first crack at getting some real media attention in the States.

I was wondering who else will be attending. If you would like to know
the details of the Convention, including Q.Fabius's battle reinactment,
please stop by www.celebratehistory.com They have done a nice write up
on the battle. I do hope to see you there!

Valete Omnes

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus

Subject:	[Fwd: Ancient History Newsletter]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 05 Mar 1999 00:58:09 -0800

"ancienthistory.guide" wrote:

> =========================================================
> A N C I E N T * H I S T O R Y * N E W S L E T T E R
>
> N.S. Gill
> Ancient History Guide at The Mining Co.
> March 2, 1999
> Vol. III Issue #9
>
> =========================================================
>
> THIS WEEK'S FEATURE: The Olympians: A Goddess for Men
>
> It's Women's History Month
>
> Is Athena a good role model for school girls? How good a role model is the
> proverbial woman behind every great man?
>
> (Go to the
> Ancient/Classical History Homepage at
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com</a> to read this week's feature.)
>
> =========================================================
>
> AND LEAD US NOT INTO ... TYPOS
>
> Precamur ne nos inducat Titivilius in permultos errores.
>
> According to Morris Bishop, Titivilius is the mediaeval copyists' guild's
> own trade demon. Quote adapted by members of the Latin-L.
>
> =========================================================
>
> ROMAN DEITIES
>
> For an extensive list of the Roman deities (not just Greek counterparts),
> see Gregory Flood's Roman Gods & Goddesses:
> <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~Eudaimonos/gods.html" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~Eudaimonos/gods.html</a>
>
> =========================================================
>
> SITE UPDATE (Net Links)
>
> ---------------------------
>
> CHILDREN
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub1.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub1.htm</a>>
>
> Introduction to Ancient Greece
>
> --------------------------------
>
> GREECE: BIBLIOGRAPHY
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubgkbiblio.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubgkbiblio.htm</a>>
>
> A Short Bibliography of Thucydides
> Commentaries on Individual Odes of Pindar
>
> --------------------------------
>
> LATIN
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub17.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub17.htm</a>>
>
> Facetiae: les histoires de Francisco
>
> --------------------------------
>
> LATIN POETRY
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub35.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub35.htm</a>>
>
> A Bibliographic Guide to Vergil's Aeneid
> Vergil: Bibliography
> Maps
> Satire
> Roman Satire
>
> --------------------------------
>
> MYTHOLOGY & RELIGION
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubmyth.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubmyth.htm</a>>
>
> Pantheons
>
> --------------------------------
>
> NEAR EAST
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub6.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub6.htm</a>>
>
> Brief History of Assyrians
>
> --------------------------------
>
> TIMELINE
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimeline.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimeline.htm</a>>
>
> A Brief History of Calligraphy
>
> --------------------------------
>
> If you know of a link I should include, please send it to me.
>
> =========================================================
>
> QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
>
> 1.Would like information on "Zbarge" .... I believe that is the name of The
> God of Mercy. Any help with this would be most appreciated...
>
> 2.[Please post answers to this on the Bulletin Board]
> In Quintus of Smyrna's The War at Troy Odysseus
> gives Achilles' arms to Neoptolmus (although I have read Quintus isn't very
> reliable). Sophocles' Philoctetes also indicates the same thing. Yet in the
> Odyssey, when Ody sees the shades of Ajax and Achilles in the underworld, he
> makes no mention of giving the arms away. In fact, when he's telling
> Achilles all about Neo, I'd think he would mention it. Anyway, my question
> is, are there other theories on this? That perhaps Odysseus didn't give
> Achilles' arms to Neoptolmus, but kept them? Where could I read more about
> this subject? Any help would be appreciated.
>
> 3.[Please post answers to this on the Bulletin Board]
> The northen tribes of Spain have been described as Celtic in culture and
> the southern as Iberian and I would assume that somewhere along the middle
> a cultural flux existed, much like the Taifa and Christian kingdom borders
> of Spain in the early Middle Ages. Would have this cultural inter- change
> been an advantage in dealing with the Romans? Did the Romans have an easier
> time in convincing border tribes to acquiesce to Rome or was it just an
> 'accident' of geography that northen tribes like the Cantabri and the
> Astures were among the last to be subdued? Was the Celtic influence in the
> north as pronounced as it was in Ireland? Can someone assume that it was
> similiar in its structure of governance and bardic traditions as what we
> understand it was in Wales and Ireland? What does the term 'Black Irish'
> mean and where did it originate? Why do historians seem to downplay the
> influence of the Milesians on Irish culture?
>
> Reader's answer to last week's Question on Diverstiy:
>
> Concerning the person's question who needs help with...'diversity' in the
> first century around the time of the'BenHur' movie...., I think a
> theological text by Paula Fredriksen, Professor of Bible and Literature at
> Boston University is good. Entitled "From Jesus to Christ: The Origins of
> the New Testament Images of Jesus" and published by the Yale University
> Press (1988); it provides insight into the diversity of Hellenistic and
> Orthodox Judaism together with that of Hellenistic Paganism (particularly
> the Stoics and Plato). Professor Fredriksen was featured on the PBS
> Frontline program "From Jesus to Christ" at Easter of last year along with
> Professor S. J. D. Cohen (who discussed the theme of diverse imagery in
> terms of Judaism), John D. Crossan, Eric Meyers, and the President of Union
> (Protestant) Seminary. There were some others; however, I can't remember
> their names. In my opinion, the book is really good and understandable.
>
> =========================================================
>
> LINKING TO MY SITE
>
> If you would like to link to my site graphically, please select
> one of these four banners (with instructions):
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/library/bllink.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/library/bllink.htm</a>
> Many thanks!
>
> =========================================================
>
> CURA UT VALEAS
>
> N.S. Gill
> Ancient/Classical History Guide at The Mining Co
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com</a>
> ancienthistory.guide@--------
>
> =========================================================
>
> This Newsletter is copyrighted 1999 by N.S. Gill and The Mining Co. Feel
> free to distribute this Newsletter in its entirety to anyone who may be
> interested.
> ISSN: 1521-9232
>
> **********************************
> N.S. Gill
> Ancient/Classical History Guide
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com</a>
> This week's feature: Athena
>
> ---------------------------------
> *About This Newsletter*
>
> To add a new email address or remove your email address from this
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> and click the subscribe or unsubscribe button.
>
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> where you'll find expert guidance on thousands of topics.
>
> MiningCo.com - We mine the net so you don't have to.

Subject:	Re: Orientation of Roman altars
From:	Claudia Aprica quinta_claudia_lucentia_aprica@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 04:46:45 -0800 (PST)

---Raz-------- raz--------@-------- wrot--------r> >
> From: Raz-------- raz--------@--------
>
> Salvete.
>
> I am skeptical on the matter of the Romans having been all that
picky about the
> orientation of their altars. (As in North, South, East or West.)
I've not yet
> dragged out my books, but I know from the map of Rome that is behind
my eyes
> that the temples on the Capitoline and in the Forum were oriented in
numerous
> directions. It looks more like the ever practical Romans fit the
building in as
> the plans and the ground allowed.

I think you're absolutely right about this, Erici. The passage in
Vitruvius is advice to follow if possible, but he makes it clear that
local topography and convenience should be taken into account too. I
know that Mithraea usually faced east, because this was the direction
of the rising sun, a very important symbol in Mithraic theology
(connected with the idea of rebith, Mithras' identity as a sun-deity,
and the cycle of light / darkness, night / day, growth / decay and
death / rebirth). But I don't think it was a crucial issue for most
temple buildings - just nice if you could get it. We followed
Vitruvius' advice because it happened to be easy for us - the ritual
took place in a room with an east-facing window, and it seemed natural
to face towards the window and the outside world (we also opened the
window, so that the smoke from our altar-fire could reach the gods
effectively).
Another issue altogether is the conceptual 'templum' - not what
we think of as a temple building, but to do with the way in which
augurs divided the sky into quadrants to observe omens through the
flight of birds. In this area, directions definitely _were_ important,
and it also affected the orientation of cities, because augurs played
an important role in taking the omens for and helping to lay out a
proposed city site. The two central roads of a city, which crossed
each other at right angles, were called the kardo maximus (aligned
north-south) and the decumanus maximus (aligned east-west). 'Kardo'
means hinge, so this road was the hinge over which the sky rotated
from east to west during the course of the day. 'Decumanus' is related
to the number 10, but no-one is _quite_ sure what it means. Anyway, it
was sited up against the rising sun on the day of the foundation of
the city, and everything else was measured from that.
The exact details of the religious aspect of the templum, and
jhow it all worked are a little rusty, but I can look into it and post
an explanation if people are interested - I have a lot of books on the
subject, as it's an important topic in urbanism (my subject-area). J.
Rykwert's 'The Idea of a City' is particularly recommended on the
religious theory behind Roman city foundations. Oh, and of course,
even in this area, there are many, many Roman cities which are aligned
to quite loose interpretations of the east, because, as Ericius points
out, the Romans were practical people, and the demands of the site
played a role too.
Valete,
Aprica.
==
**********************************************************************
Drop in on my gens - <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1133</a>
**********************************************************************

Subject:	Re: Orientation of Roman altars
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:27:27 -0500 (EST)

My books on Roman Engineering state that he Romans did not have the
compass at this time so the magnetic directions had no meaning.
Movement to the cardinel points (North, South, East and West may have
been defined in other terms from Rome and within the city, but
apparently all linear surveying was done from a fixed point, using 90
degree angles, (groma) and linear straight lines or angles for heights
(dioptra). The chrobates (leveling table) was also used to determine
exact leveling or a satisfactory pitch (in the case of an aquueduct) .
A medieval re-print of a Roman Road Map indicates distance between towns
and camps, Mountains are indicated as are rivers, drawings of buildings
indicate special features, but there is nothing to indicate a North-Suth
or East-West orientation. In fact to a Westerner used to reading a
Mercator Projection map this Roman Strip Map is very difficult to make
sense of and to use without some basic map review.

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Roman Days
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:51:57 EST

In a message dated 3/5/99 6:54:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
p--------@-------- writes:

<< Yee-ha! Cassius and I are coming down from Maine! We're probably going to
make this our vacation, and stay in the area for a few days checking out
the museums in Washington, and visit Gettysburg either on the way down or
the way back. Anyone interested in coordinating times (or offering
helpful advice on Civil War tourism), please e-mail me off-list. >>

I would also like to receive any information about the surrounding area where
Roman Days will be held. I'd like to feel the night life this time around.
Anyone with --------inform--------n, ple--------forw--------to me --------exippus@--------

Thanks,

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: On praetors
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:42:46 -0500

Salvete Fabi et alii

Thank you for that information on praetors. Let me now ask a narrower
question:



>From: SFP55@--------
>
>In a message dated 3/4/99 9:53:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>rmerullo@-------- writes:
>

>Here is a little on praetors for the education of the public from the
ancient
>regime.
>Vale
>Q. Fabius
>
>
>According to tradition a praetor was first elected from the Senate in
>366 BCE to supervise the administration of justice in Rome. He came
>to be known as the praetor urbanus

----big deletion for space-----
the praetors had
>became once again military magistrates, and in fact the
>distinction of rank and power between them and the consuls
>decreased, although the praetor urbanus was subservient to the
>consuls; he was still was preceded by six lictors only. He
>continued to perform the consuls' functions of summoning the
>Senate and supervising the defense of Rome during both consuls'
>absence from the city.

Is it accurate to say, Fabi, that the praetores urbani, from 366 BCE to the
end of the Republic, were generally members of the Senate before their
election to the office of praetor urbanus? There is a hint toward this in
the first sentence above when you quote "a praetor was first elected from
the Senate". Too, your quote later refers to the praetor urbanus' power "to
perform the consuls' functions of summoning the >Senate".

The main point of this question is to establish, or dismiss, the supposition
that praetores urbani were in fact members of the Senate throughout much of
the Republican era.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Rome on The Learning Channel
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:29:33 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites!

"Rome: Power and Glory" will air on The Learning Channel on Dies Solis, VII
Martius, 9-11pm EST and PST.

The newspaper ad reads: "The civilization that gave us democracy, taxes, and
backstabbing politicians."

Sounds like Nova Roma is on the right track!

Valete,
Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
gangale@--------

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
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The Martian Ministry of Culture
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Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
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The National Primary System
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World GenWeb Calabria
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Subject:	Re: Senate's composition
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:16:41 -0600 (CST)

A day late and maybe a dollar short...

Marius Merullus said (among other things):

>The office of praetor urbanus is a curule magistracy...[snip]...Is
>senate membership automatic for all former
>magistrates, some, neither?

I was kinda wondering the same thing...I had been under the impression
that the ancient Roman Senate was composed of some sitting and most
former magistrates; the sitting ones were in because of the curule
magistracies they had previously held. Anyone who had at least been a
Quaestor or a curule Aedile would thereafter have been entitled to a
Senate seat for life, or until expelled by the Censors...am I far wrong
in this impression?

More to my point, anyway: Why should a curule magistrate have to
'lurk' to know what's going on in the Senate?

>2. Would it make sense at some point in the future to include
>currently sitting magistrates in the Senate? [snip]...It may even be
>worth considering to allow certain or all magistrates access to Senate
>deliberations as observers.

Hear, hear! Per the Constitution, anyone who's been a Praetor, a
Quaestor, or a Consul ought to be in the Senate. We should have gotten
a bumper-crop of new Senators in Ianuary, when a host of Cives became
'former' magistrates. That this did not happen is probably hurting us
right now... I think our Senate will be a much healthier institution
when it has more members; four or six people is a paltry number to be
carrying the weight of the Nova Roman world on their shoulders. We
should see some improvement, too, once the Comitiae are in place; then
the Senate will not be stuck with the whole task of governing, and
we'll be able (I hope!) to start putting out some of our own fires...
>({|;-)

On a personal note, I want to iterate that I bear no ill-will towards
anyone over the events of the last few days. The Senate did what it
thought it had to, and the Citizen on the receiving end is taking it
gracefully. Consul, Senatrix, I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion in
Taverna yesterday evening and I hope my occasional but prolonged
'silences' (due to incoming customer calls) were not interpreted as
anger on my part, or as an attempt to vamoose after stirring up a
hornet's nest. (I'm not *that* Rotten!)

Yours in service to the Republic (I know, that's Gallio Marcallas'
tag-line...)
---
__________ _<~) __________
<-\\\\@@@@@) /##\ (@@@@@////-> Märia Villarroel legion6@--------
<-\\\@@@@(#####@@@@///-> Historical Re-Creationist
<-\\\*##*///-> and Citizen of Rome
o---<<<<||SPQR||>>>>---o Latin lessons, History lectures
///\\\ Role-playing Games, too!

aka Lucius Marius Fimbria on the weekends

Subject:	Re: Rome on The Learning Channel
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:26:03 EST

In a message dated 3/5/99 1:29:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, gangale@--------
writes:

<< The newspaper ad reads: "The civilization that gave us democracy, taxes,
and
backstabbing politicians."

Sounds like Nova Roma is on the right track! >>

Yes...I saw the trailer...it looks great! I plan on sitting in front of the
T.V. with some pop-corn and having a blast!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Senate's composition
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:43:16 -0500 (EST)

On Fri, 5 Mar 1999 legion6@-------- wrote:

> From: legion6@--------

> I was kinda wondering the same thing...I had been under the impression
> that the ancient Roman Senate was composed of some sitting and most
> former magistrates; the sitting ones were in because of the curule
> magistracies they had previously held. Anyone who had at least been a
> Quaestor or a curule Aedile would thereafter have been entitled to a
> Senate seat for life, or until expelled by the Censors...am I far wrong
> in this impression?

Only from the time of Sulla (*the* Sulla, not the Nova Roma one) was
quaestor an automatic admission into the senate. Before that, usually had
to have been a quaestor, but that would not necessarily have been enough.

The curule Aedile was not in the cursus honorum and was not relevant to
entry to the senate. In fact, most curule aediles would have already been
senators because of the monetary expenses of the office.

> More to my point, anyway: Why should a curule magistrate have to
> 'lurk' to know what's going on in the Senate?

Believe it or not, I agree with you. However, the fact remains that he was
not in the senate yet and had not received permission to be on the
board except after the fact--from me. In a chat Sulla told me that he had
access to the board. Since it was a fait accompli anyway, I told him that
I didn't mind since I thought that as a curule magistrate he should have
access anyway. From this point on he was authorized to "lurk" as you put
it. However, I trusted to his discretion to not discuss what he found
there nor to drop hints as to the URL of the board. Also, my permission
did not clear him from initially accessing the board without clearance.

In the recent reprimand of Sulla, I abstained from voting since I felt
that I contributed to the confusion of the issue. However, I did not stand
in the way of the reprimand either and did contribute to the discussion of
the issue.

I think that this issue is ready to be put behind us. I am satisfied with
Sulla's gracious apology to the Senate and hope that we can all continue
to work together for the betterment of Nova Roma.


> >2. Would it make sense at some point in the future to include
> >currently sitting magistrates in the Senate? [snip]...It may even be
> >worth considering to allow certain or all magistrates access to Senate
> >deliberations as observers.
>
> Hear, hear! Per the Constitution, anyone who's been a Praetor, a
> Quaestor, or a Consul ought to be in the Senate.

Not according to the *Nova Roma* constitution. It says that the senate is
composed of former magistrates (the term "Praetor, quaestor and Consul
is not in there but rather magistrates in general though personally I
like that order) or other citizens who
have made extraordinary contributions to Nova Roma (such as when Claudia
was brought into the Senate) but does not state that the process is
automatic. It is not. The Consul nominates people, the censors approve or
disapprove the nomination and the senate votes on the nominees.

As time goes on, we will have a much larger senate and a pool of people to
draw from to run for curule magistrates. Currently however, the
order of the cursus honorum is not enforced and anyone can run for any
office. It is not an automatic admission into the senate.

>We should have gotten
> a bumper-crop of new Senators in Ianuary, when a host of Cives became
> 'former' magistrates.

Well, most of the former senior magistrates were already in the Senate.
There really was not a so-called "bumper-crop" to draw from. The 2
quaestors, Patricia Cassia and L. Cornelius Sulla have not yet been
admitted into the Senate but they are the only 2 that have been left out.
If you remember, there were 2 new admissions just before the turn of the
year, which kind of forestalled our adding any more people right away.


> That this did not happen is probably hurting us
> right now... I think our Senate will be a much healthier institution
> when it has more members; four or six people is a paltry number to be
> carrying the weight of the Nova Roman world on their shoulders.

Considering that our "world is only about 220 or 230 people, 6 people is a
pretty large percentage of that number. We have already grown by 2 in
December--there will probably be a few more in the coming months.



Decius Iunius Palladius, Consul




----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: Senate's composition
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:59:43 -0600 (CST)

On 03/05/99 14:16:41 you wrote:
>
>
>More to my point, anyway: Why should a curule magistrate have to
>'lurk' to know what's going on in the Senate?

Well, let's see....could it be....because there are rules in place that don't allow this?
>
>>2. Would it make sense at some point in the future to include
>>currently sitting magistrates in the Senate? [snip]...It may even be
>>worth considering to allow certain or all magistrates access to Senate
>>deliberations as observers.
>
>Hear, hear! Per the Constitution, anyone who's been a Praetor, a
>Quaestor, or a Consul ought to be in the Senate. We should have gotten
>a bumper-crop of new Senators in Ianuary, when a host of Cives became
>'former' magistrates. That this did not happen is probably hurting us
>right now

A "host of Cives?" Gee, where were these raging hordes of former magistrates? You're entitled to your opinion. But the fact is that -- as the
organization stands now -- it does NOT allow for a Praetor Urbanis to be lurking in the Senate. Sulla took it upon himself to circumnavigate the
current procedure by underhanded means rather than take the more open and aboveboard action of working up a proposal for a constitutional
change and taking it to the Senate for a vote.

We're constantly seeing Citizens debating issues on the list and in the Chat Room, saying what SHOULD be done or changed, but when it
comes to actually doing something about it, they're content to let someone else do it. Worse, they wait for the Senate to do something, then
criticize because it wasn't done to their liking. Or they say "I'm not presenting anything to the Senate until I'm sure it will pass." Thus, they look
like "concerned Citizens" but without the inconvenience of having to put anything on the line. I'm not talking about YOU, Maria, I mean this as
a general thing. It's kind of like those U.S. Citizens who gripe about the govenment and have an opinion on everything, but don't bother to
register to vote. We couldn't even find people to run for some offices in the last election. We also have quite a few people who go on about
what they're GOING to do for Nova Roma when THEY'RE running things. Why aren't they doing anything to benefit NR now?

During the recent endless debate about taxes, Audens figured he'd have no trouble getting 10 people together to write the proposal, considering
how many people expressed an opinion. He could only get 2.

>
>Consul, Senatrix, I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion in
>Taverna yesterday evening and I hope my occasional but prolonged
>'silences' (due to incoming customer calls) were not interpreted as
>anger on my part, or as an attempt to vamoose after stirring up a
>hornet's nest. (I'm not *that* Rotten!)

I think we've ALL had the experience of fooling around in the Chat Room or e-mail at work! That 'down time' between assignments or calls can
bore you to death.

-- Flavia Claudia