Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: Taxes
From:	marcio-oliveira@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:23:12 -0300 (EST)

Obrigado por entrar em contato. Retornarei sua mensagem o mais breve possível.


Subject:	Re: Taxes
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:47:39 EST

> Obrigado por entrar em contato. Retornarei sua mensagem o mais breve
possível.

Can I get that in English? I dont speak latin. My best guess is "I am
content as things are".


Subject:	Re: Rome: Power & Glory
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:51:57 EST

> The Romans were cruel and brutal? Compared to whom? Shapur, who had
> Valerian stuffed? Try telling the barbarians how we understand that
they're
> from "dysfunctional environments" and how we "feel their pain," then see
how
> they repay you!

My sentiments exactly. Rome was built and tempered in times of great turmoil
when war was common. They were no worse than anyone else. Even more than a
thousand years after Rome fell there was the Tower of London, the Reign of
Terror with the guillotine, the Salem witch trials, World War II and the Nazi
death camps, Charles Manson, Jack the Ripper, Jeffrey Dahmer, bullfighting in
Spain and Mexico, and the dreaded Ice Capades.


Subject:	NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:49:07 EST

I'm tired right now (1 AM) so be warned this probably sounds a little weird.

Was thinking of some ideas for an NR city if we ever get one. Namely the
streets. I'm thinking streets made of white stone slabs, possibly cloudy
quartz or marble, 1 cm thick and 1 sq. meter each that fits onto a thicker
concrete block that has been put onto the cement foundation. But heres some
other ideas. Anyone know how much cement costs?

Should they be of marble or other colored stoned (red or white stone most
likely)?

Should the streets be made of a material with a reflective surface, giving the
feel of walking on water (ie. you see reflections in the street)?


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 02:38:26 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/8/99 11:22:46 PM P--------ic St--------rd Time, Tem----------------
writes:

<< Anyone know how much cement costs? >>
1.25-1.50 a 50 LB bag,


Subject:	Price Estimates
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 03:21:47 EST

Been going on this craze of designing a new roman city, so dont get ticked and
thinking I'm trying to impose my views of a city on NR. This is just some
thoughts and such.

I'll call Northwest Construction this morning to get a price estimate on all
the materials for construction of the streets (a large part of the city).
Streets would be 5 meters wide and the center meter would be taken up by rows
of plants on raised stone platforms (though there would be spaces between
these platforms so people could "change lanes". No cars of course. Just
bicycles and good old fashioned feet. I was thinking about the city and after
many many different thoughts as to how we'd allow renovations and sewage and
water pipes and such and still have nice stone-tiled streets that cant be dug
up every time someone wants to add a phone line....I've come up with
something. On the side of each street an area (not the street
itself)...say...one meter, would be a small corridor (I'll refer to this as
the "tech corridor") of covered pipes and power lines and whatever else the
city requires. The covers would be easily removable though would be made of
stone just like everything else. Simple holes in the street/buildings would
allow them to be placed thus making them easily removable. When someone wants
to add a phone line just lift them up and string in the line. Pillars
directly attached to the "tech corridor" (most likely not solid - power lines
lead up to the light which is turned on during the dark hours, water pipes
inside automatically watering the plants that branch out from its sides onto
the attached circular platforms creating a "hanging gardens" effect) would
stand on the sides of the street (one on each corner of each 5x5 tile block).

Thats my thoughts for now.


Subject:	Re: Rome: Power & Glory
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 03:31:38 EST

Salvete!
Roman history mixed with myth. It certainly doesn't go into depth. We
somewhat overly preoccupied the sex life of Eturia, there is never a mention
of the Etruscian invasion by the Gauls, Roman legiones finishes off all the
Etruscians, north and south, the Gaullic invasion of Latinum is off by 5
years, The Samnites don't exist, there are no Latin wars and Magna Gracchi,
Pyrrhus' invasion, and Sicily are not even an afterthought. Carthage (Jewel
of the Med. where they got that from I do not know) is Rome's enemy made out
to be Rome's implacable enemy, no real reason why. In the 1st Punic War Roman
concept of naval combat is explained, but the Corvus they show is inaccurate.
There is no mention of Regulus' defeat at Bagradas, the whole war appears to
be fought at sea. The second Punic War has Hannibal invading Italy through
the Alps, but no mention of the Brothers Cornelius Scipio, No Trebia, no
Trasimene, Cannae is mentioned all but in passing, Q. Fabius Maximus (my
Namesake) the savior of the republic, never is spoken of.
Marcelius' campaigns in southern Italy and Sicily are entirely ignored. No
fall of Nova Carthagina, P. Cornelius Scipio's (the famous Africanus)
masterpiece of maneuver at Ilipa is never talked about! We see Hannibal's
defeat at Zama, the 1st Macedonian, Seleucid, 2nd Macedonian wars again
aren't mentioned. While Zama is important it's those three that make Rome an
Empire. Back at home Roman government is discussed, we get excited about Rome
having census! The doc fails to mention it's an Etruscan institution, it
sounds like a Roman invention that revolutionizes politics as we know it.
After this brief pause we accelerate again. The invasion of the Teutons never
occurs, no brothers Gracheus, no Catline, Social Wars never happened.
While this was the first hour, and you can't cover everything in an hour,
there was no reason to do it this way. There was 6 hours.
I'm looking forward to the Legiones segment though. I was one of the advisers
consulted. BTW, as usual Romans are given the blood thirsty, brutal, kill kill
kill aspect to their personality. How long before the Christian myths about
Rome will be overthrown? I hope NR overcomes 1966 years of propaganda one day
and sets the record straight once and for all.
Valete!
QFM


Subject:	Re: Roman Altars
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" n_moravius@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 00:36:17 PST

Salvete omnes!

All the contributions about orientation (there's a word to think about!)
are much appreciated by yours truly. So... but...why -do- NR's Religio
Romana rites & rituals pages assume that Lararia are (or should be) in
the north? Was it simply to help indicate the directions of the
movements the worshipper should make? Won't some people read it and
believe that north-facing lararia are a Roman tradition? Why should
north be a good idea when east is recommended for public altars, and the
available evidence from Rome old & new seems to indicate that it isn't
important ?

Valete in pace deorum,

Confused of Clausentum.


Subject:	Re: Rome: Power & Glory
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 04:20:56 EST

> How long before the Christian myths about Rome will be overthrown?

No kidding. Ever see a movie based on Jesus' crusifiction? Romans look like
downright nasty little bastards. And its not like Jesus was the first person
to claim he was a savior. There were nearly a dozen people in the provinces
with jewish religion who claimed they were the savior and the Roman government
was sick and tired of having any old Joe step up, claim hes a savior, and
start a small uprising. And crusifiction was nothing special. It was common.
Jesus' body disappearing? I'd say they just moved the stone in front of the
grave and took out his body. "The stone was too heavy to move" you say? Well
someone had to move it there in the first place didnt they? And lets assume
he did talk to the people again. Identical twins perhaps? Or perhaps he
really couldnt die. There have been a few instances in history where there
have been so-called "immortals" that can get the living shit beat out of them
and still survive (Rasputin comes to mind, as do a few other people from
Russia - namely some of the pre-Mongol Rule russian kings that were killed at
night and then showed up for breakfast the next morning. Russia actually was
called the second Rome.) Anyways lets say they checked for a pulse,
heartbeat, etc. even though we know they didnt: Many people practice concious
control over breathing, heartbeat, etc. (The monks in those mile-high
monasteries come to mind - who can stop their own heart from beating and also
can sing forever because they can breathe in with their nose and sing with the
mouth at the same time).


Subject:	Re: Roman Altars
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:05:41 EST

In a message dated 3/9/99 3:36:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, Nicolaus Moravius,
(n_moravius@--------) writes:

> All the contributions about orientation (there's a word to think about!)
are much appreciated by yours truly.

There were actually more than one methods of positioning religious altars,
etc. in ancient Rome I believe. For instance, in the positioning of TEMPLES, a
temple foundation would be laid facing the sunrise *on the day sacred to the
deity who's temple was being built*. Because of this there are temples which
face just about every direction of the compass in Rome.

>So... but...why -do- NR's Religio
Romana rites & rituals pages assume that Lararia are (or should be) in
the north? Was it simply to help indicate the directions of the
movements the worshipper should make? Won't some people read it and
believe that north-facing lararia are a Roman tradition? Why should
north be a good idea when east is recommended for public altars, and the
available evidence from Rome old & new seems to indicate that it isn't
important?

As far as I am aware, "tradition" places the home altar facing toward the
North *if possible*. Most likely this was more important in earlier periods,
and something only half-remembered by the end of the Empire, (as were many
religious customs). It is important to remember that there are slight
differences between a household altar and a "public altar"... traditions and
preferences within each individual Gens might also affect orientation of the
home altar, etc.

Nova Roma was fortunate in being able to find an authentic Lararium ritual,
and we've taken pains to keep it in the form in which it came to us. When time
permits we'll surely make more notations to the Religio Romana site... adding
little pieces of info such as "if for some reason you can't put your Lararium
facing North in your home, that one detail will NOT affect the validity of
your household rites". It's fairly certain that the ancient Romans themselves
did not obsess over this particular detail - larariums found in Pompeii (still
a fairly early date) seem to face in whatever direction was most amenable to
one's Atrium.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus


Subject:	NR City
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" n_moravius@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 05:37:03 PST

Salvete!

Surely 'Roman' is a state of mind, an attitude, a set of values, a way
of looking at the world. To be Roman means to be cosmopolitan. I am
concerned, citizens, that Nova Roma City or Remona or whatever its
founders decide to call it, once built, with whatever noble intentions,
would quickly become, like some Amish communities in Pennsylvania, a
quaint peculiarity for tourists to gawp at. Let's not confuse
reconstruction with revival.

Seriously, and without intent to 'flame' anyone, I believe this whole
idea of abandoning one's parent community and all its problems to found
some new, perfect utopia for the few chosen faithful, horribly
reminiscent of the practice of certain monotheist sects I wouldn't want
to be associated with. Aeneas, and Romulus and Remus, didn't
HAVEanywhere else to live. We do. The age of colonies is long over.

The world we live in is built on the foundations of Rome. Do we really
want to go and build yet another city, or change the cities in which we
live?

Vivat Roma Sempttaerna! Long live eternal Rome!

With respect,

N. Moravius Vado.


Subject:	Greeting from Brasil (was Re: Taxes)
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:25:18 -0600 (CST)

On Tue, 9 M--------999, Tem---------------- wrote:
>From: Tem----------------
>
>> Obrigado por entrar em contato. Retornarei sua mensagem o mais breve
>possível.
>
>Can I get that in English? I dont speak latin.

It's Portuguese, from gens Olivaria in Brasil. It means, roughly,
'Thank you very much for contacting me. I shall [attempt to] reply to
your message as soon as possible.'

Not sure if it was meant to hit the whole List, but there it is.

--- LMF


Subject:	Re: Rome: Power & Glory
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:55:28 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/8/99 7:55:00 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, Oplonti--------...
writes:

<< If you want to watch this series, watch
it for the pictures and don't pay any attention to what is being said. The
narration is not very reliable. In my opinion. >>

Ok...so it's not just me? I've been watching the series and while I find it
fascinating, it has been leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Almost as if they
make an effort to ensue the brutality of the Romans (which by the way was a
characteristic of every ancient society...and not just Rome) and a few
mentions here and there of the gifts of Rome.

I thought maybe I was missing something...but I guess not.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Rome: Power & Glory
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:00:27 EST

In a message dated 3/9/99 12:06:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, gangale@--------
writes:

<< How could one expect to cover more that a thousand years of history in just
a few hours? Realistically, even covering a single century in an hour would
be challenging.

But don't get me wrong... it's worth watching. I just want more! But than,
don't we all? >>

Yes...I realize that they couldn't possibly cover all of Roman history in a
few short hours. I was just curious as to the quality of the job they were
doing with those few short hours they have. : )

Thanks for the feedback.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Rome: Power & Glory
From:	Asseri@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:04:16 EST

In a message dated 3/9/99 10:01:19 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Dexippus@-------- writes:

<< But don't get me wrong... it's worth watching. I just want more! But
than,
don't we all? >>
>>
I wanted to be as fun as the commercials! Those witty and interesting!
P.A. Olivia


Subject:	Re: Rome: Power & Glory
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:08:10 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/9/99 4:21:20 AM E--------rn St--------rd Time, Tem----------------
writes:

<< Ever see a movie based on Jesus' crusifiction? Romans look like
downright nasty little bastards. And its not like Jesus was the first person
to claim he was a savior. There were nearly a dozen people in the provinces
with jewish religion who claimed they were the savior and the Roman
government
was sick and tired of having any old Joe step up, claim hes a savior, and
start a small uprising. And crusifiction was nothing special. It was
common.
Jesus' body disappearing? I'd say they just moved the stone in front of the
grave and took out his body. >>

It also bewilds me since the New Testament clearly states that Pontius Pilate
saw no offense in Jesus. Romans did not view him as a threat and wanted to
let him go. It was the Jewish people who called for his execution and
demanded that he be executed by Roman hands. They prefered a convicted
murderer be set free than someone who claimed to be a "messiah".

And as for the body...hey, they never found Jimmie Hoffa either but you don't
see anyone praying to him!!!!!

--Dexippus


Subject:	Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:15:44 -0500

Salvete Omnes

I watched "Rome: Power & Glory" last night. I have a couple of questions
that have nothing whatsoever in common with each other:

1. To Quaestor Venator and others with knowledge of Roman food, can you
tell me whether any of the ingredients in the stuff that I made to eat
during the show were used in Roman dishes or had any close equivalents?
Ingredients: cauliflower, broccoli, tofu, anchovies, pepperoni, garlic (I
know that garlic was used), onions, spaghetti (Romans did not have it or
anything like it, right?), capers, pine nuts, and, of course, olive oil (the
oil of the Roman world).

2. To Callidus, Fabius, Fimbria or anyone up on late Republic history: one
of the only pieces of information that leaped out at me during the show was
the reference to C Iulius Caesar's unprecedented gladiatoral games, wherein
he had some 640 (?) gladiators fighting for public entertainment. What was
the occasion for those games? Was that during his term of office as Curule
Aedile, was it in honor of his deceased aunt Iulia wife of Marius?

My general impressions of the show ware much like what other peple have
said, it did not seem as informative as it was entertaining. It reminded me
a lot of A&E's one-hour biography of Stalin, which attempted to cover the
Russian Revolution, World War II and much, much more in one hour. I think
that these shows should have some kind of disclaimer at their beginning like
"For edutainment purposes only -- do not form opinions or theories on the
basis of this show's content alone."

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:05:59 EST

In a message dated 3/9/99 10:21:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rmerullo@-------- writes:

<< To Quaestor Venator and others with knowledge of Roman food, can you
tell me whether any of the ingredients in the stuff that I made to eat
during the show were used in Roman dishes or had any close equivalents?
Ingredients: cauliflower, broccoli, tofu, anchovies, pepperoni, garlic (I
know that garlic was used), onions, spaghetti (Romans did not have it or
anything like it, right?), capers, pine nuts, and, of course, olive oil (the
oil of the Roman world). >>

The Romans did not have spaghetti or pasts of any sort. Pasta was brought to
Italy by Marco Polo from China. Of course...this was much later in history
than the Roman period. Anchovies were most likely enjoyed by
Romans...Venator, care to comment? Definately garlic and olive oil. I
believe pine nuts were known. Perhaps capers too. Grapes....definately
grapes! : )

--Dexippus
<<now hungry!>>


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 08:35:55 -0800

RMerullo wrote:

> From: "RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
>
> Salvete Omnes
>
> I watched "Rome: Power & Glory" last night. I have a couple of questions
> that have nothing whatsoever in common with each other:
>
> 1. To Quaestor Venator and others with knowledge of Roman food, can you
> tell me whether any of the ingredients in the stuff that I made to eat
> during the show were used in Roman dishes or had any close equivalents?
> Ingredients: cauliflower, broccoli, tofu, anchovies, pepperoni, garlic (I
> know that garlic was used), onions, spaghetti (Romans did not have it or
> anything like it, right?), capers, pine nuts, and, of course, olive oil (the
> oil of the Roman world).
>
> 2. To Callidus, Fabius, Fimbria or anyone up on late Republic history: one
> of the only pieces of information that leaped out at me during the show was
> the reference to C Iulius Caesar's unprecedented gladiatoral games, wherein
> he had some 640 (?) gladiators fighting for public entertainment. What was
> the occasion for those games? Was that during his term of office as Curule
> Aedile, was it in honor of his deceased aunt Iulia wife of Marius?
>

I thought it was in honor of the death of his father (during his office of
Curule Aedile)...or his daughter (After the Civil War)? Ok, how far am I off?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus


Subject:	Date of Caesars games was Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:00:53 -0500

Salvete Luci Corneli et alii

-----Original Message-----

>> 2. To Callidus, Fabius, Fimbria or anyone up on late Republic history:
one
>> of the only pieces of information that leaped out at me during the show
was
>> the reference to C Iulius Caesar's unprecedented gladiatoral games,
wherein
>> he had some 640 (?) gladiators fighting for public entertainment. What
was
>> the occasion for those games? Was that during his term of office as
Curule
>> Aedile, was it in honor of his deceased aunt Iulia wife of Marius?
>>
>
>I thought it was in honor of the death of his father (during his office of
>Curule Aedile)...or his daughter (After the Civil War)? Ok, how far am I
off?
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla
>Praetor Urbanus
>
I recall that the narrator last night said that the games were held 6? BC
(maybe 64 BC?). I believe that this would rule out the occasion of the
death of his daughter Iulia, wife of Pompeius (had she lived, maybe there
would not have been a Civil War with Caesar and Pompeius as chief
belligerents?).

I have no idea, though, when Caesar was Curule Aedile, except that it would
have been signifcantly earlier than the Civil War. And I thought somehow
that Caesar was a Quaestor in Spain at the time of his father's death, but I
could be all wrong about that one too.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:10:28 EST

> The world we live in is built on the foundations of Rome. Do we really
> want to go and build yet another city, or change the cities in which we
> live?

The reason I like the idea of our own city is that we could get it to look how
we want. I like the idea of creating an "eighth wonder of the world" myself.
I dont think a city that is built with the same technologies as the Romans had
would work. I DO think a city based on the Romans but with more technology
would be good.

As for the U.S. being based on Rome...it is, but it has been twisted and
mauled over the years into a pile of goo that no Roman would ever dream came
from them. First of all democracy is much different, and in fact I believe
democracy is actually worse because you have people voting that dont know what
they're talking about whereas the Senate was composed of people who have had
long political lives. The next thing is the U.S. and almost all other
countries around the world have turned to gunpowder, cars, etc. We could use
bicycles instead of cars - cars could be parked in a certain area outside the
city. I'd prefer that Nova Roma, if it ever did use weapons, would only use
bows and swords. Bows were advancing ten times as fast as guns in the
medieval times, but development of them nearly stopped with the arrival of the
gun. I think with a little work we could get bow-style weapons that can
compete effectively. There are even ways that you could have a "gatline bow"
firing tons of high powered arrows. And longbows are even better in some ways
than guns. You can have them rain down on your enemy - making trenches like
those in world war 1 obsolete. (Not sure WHY nobody thought to use them back
then). Oh well thats all for now.


Subject:	Re: Political scapegoat in Judea (was power and glory)
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:14:57 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/9/99 7:08:27 AM P--------ic St--------rd Time, Dexippus@--------
writes:

<< Romans did not view him as a threat and wanted to let him go. It was the
Jewish people who called for his execution a demanded that he be executed by
Roman hands. <<

What we had here if you analyze it, logically, was a power struggle between
two Jewish powers the Religious Right, and the Liberals. The Right wanted to
keep the status quo because it kept them in power, Herod Antipas, the
tetrarch, wasn't stupid enough to revolt because he didn't have the support
from the other despots yet, and Parthia was non committal to helping.

Enter Jesus bar Joseph, a mystic with incredible charisma. He quickly
mobilized the populace with his popular message and parlor tricks, so much so,
that the people acclaimed him the "Messiah."
(Interestingly enough Jesus never said anything about revolting from Rome, if
anything his parables were about keeping God's word, and living a good
righteous life on this earth. When asked about Rome he gave the famous render
unto Caesar, what is due to Caesar quote.)

However, the problem now lay in the fact that after the sermon of the Mound,
Christians know it as the miracle of the loaves and fishes, the rabble
acclaimed him King of the Jews. Now the Religious right and Herod did take
notice. The Religious High Council "The Sahedern" (sic) decided that this was
not a good situation.

The Jews and Rome have always had a turbulent history. The last Jewish revolt
had been during the administration of Syrian legate Varius, where 2000 Jews
(mostly high ranking) had been put to death for treason (declaring
independence) against Rome. The high council did not want a revisit by the
Eagles (no not the music group).

So Jesus had to go. But how to remove him without making him a rallying
symbol of revolt? The plan was simple. Have Rome execute him as common
criminal. The rest was pretty much easy. Although warned, (Judas' famous
speech) Jesus went along with his preaching like he didn't care and by this
time he had a huge following. How many we aren't sure, but it was
substantial. The Council didn't want to rile this mob, so they bribed a one
of Jesus' right hand men to keep tabs on him for them and to let them know
when the "false prophet" was going to be alone.

When the crowd had dispersed to observe the high Jewish holiday of Passover,
the council struck. Samaritan guards of Herod seized him and took him to
Pilate, procurator pro pratore of Judea. He happened to be in Jerusalem at
the time, the timing is very convenient. I find this hard to believe that
the high council didn't arrange this somehow. Pilate was told that Jesus was
fomenting rebellion against Rome and Judea.

He asked Jesus about this. Jesus was non committal. Herod happened also to
be in town, probably visiting the temple for the feast day. (Happenence? We
don't think so!) Pilate sent Jesus to him, since he was a Galileian and Herod
was a tetrarch of Galilee.
Herod didn't want to anything to with a rebel, lest Rome hear of it, and sent
him quickly back.

By this time it was dawning on Pilate that he was about to meddle in Jewish
politics, something Tiberias had forbade him to do. The last thing he wanted
to do was have a riot on his watch. So he scourged him as punishment for
inciting rebellion, but since no witnesses could be found to testify against
the would be king, (an important point), Pilate decided to set him free.

But at dawn the council had organized a huge mob, clamoring for his death as
traitor to Judea and Rome. Pilate, who was a weak reed, (the fact he had one
cohorte of auxilia about 400 men only at his beck and call might have colored
his decision) made one last attempt. Since it was a holiday, condemned men
were often let free. Pilate offered a choice of a murderer or Jesus the
traitor. The crowd chose the murderer.
Seeing the handwriting on the wall, Pilate bowed to the inevitable. Washing
his hands in an elaborate ritual (and covering his ass) Pilate gave him to the
mob.

What I find interesting is the speed of all this. He was arrested on Thursday
at probably 7:00 p.m. in the evening and was dead by high noon the next day.
The council was very motivated. Reading in between the lines they were very
scared of what Jesus bar Joseph represented. And they took him out very fast
when he became a threat to their influence.

Sorry this was so long, but I wanted to explain why the political climate had
much to do with Jesus death. I spent two years studying historical Jesus. I
wanted to share my knowledge of what I found.

Valete!
Q. Fabius


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:18:07 EST

There should be a law that says "Your documentary must be at least one hour
for every 25 years of history and must be at least 5 hours long to start
with". I mean, documenting 100 years of ice skating wouldnt take 5 hours, but
when you're dealing with lost empires...or maybe something better....

"You must not exclude any important events from your documentary"


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:19:38 EST

> Anchovies were most likely enjoyed by Romans...Venator, care to comment?

I'll comment instead hehe. They used nasty fish sauce that was basically
fermented fish that was sitting in the bottom of a bucket for years and years.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	"Christer Wohlfarth" noetic@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:42:11 +0100

Salve!
I´m new here

Temale wrote:

>From: Tem----------------
>
>> The world we live in is built on the foundations of Rome. Do we really
>> want to go and build yet another city, or change the cities in which we
>> live?

It is not possible and i don´t agree on trying to make a *new Rome* litteraryly.
Better is if we (the citizens of Nova Roma) did our best to increase the knowing of Roman culture in the world, than playing games.

>The reason I like the idea of our own city is that we could get it to look how
>we want. I like the idea of creating an "eighth wonder of the world" myself.
>I dont think a city that is built with the same technologies as the Romans had
>would work. I DO think a city based on the Romans but with more technology
>would be good.

An aeria somewhere, preferebly in southern Europe, with a warm and nice climate.
It could become like Disneyland in Paris but with a serious approach.

>As for the U.S. being based on Rome...it is, but it has been twisted and
>mauled over the years into a pile of goo that no Roman would ever dream came
>from them.

I agree!!!

First of all democracy is much different, and in fact I believe
>democracy is actually worse because you have people voting that dont know what
>they're talking about whereas the Senate was composed of people who have had
>long political lives.

The US is growing more and more a oneparty-state. There isn´t really a difference between democrats and republicans. They are all conservatives.

The next thing is the U.S. and almost all other
>countries around the world have turned to gunpowder, cars, etc. We could use
>bicycles instead of cars - cars could be parked in a certain area outside the
>city.

Why allow them at all?
Too much driving kills our planet. Motorcars should be used only in remote aerias.

I'd prefer that Nova Roma, if it ever did use weapons, would only use
>bows and swords. Bows were advancing ten times as fast as guns in the
>medieval times, but development of them nearly stopped with the arrival of the
>gun. I think with a little work we could get bow-style weapons that can
>compete effectively. There are even ways that you could have a "gatline bow"
>firing tons of high powered arrows. And longbows are even better in some ways
>than guns. You can have them rain down on your enemy - making trenches like
>those in world war 1 obsolete. (Not sure WHY nobody thought to use them back
>then). Oh well thats all for now.

We might be forced to use them eventually. Not all people and governments like
*romantics*

Vale!

+ In hoc signo vinces +

Valentinus Maximus Scandinavicus
******EU******
noetic@--------


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:50:12 -0500 (EST)

Salted fish were used to make "garum" sauce, and because the anchovies
were small' they were best suited to the process for making garum.
Remains if dried garum in the bottom of transporting flasks bear this
out in the tiny bone fragment which were left in the dried residue..

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:02:04 EST

In a me--------e dated 3/9/99 2:42:30 PM Ea--------n Standard Time, noetic@--------
writes:

<< It is not possible and i don´t agree on trying to make a *new Rome*
litteraryly.
Better is if we (the citizens of Nova Roma) did our best to increase the
knowing of Roman culture in the world, than playing games.
>>

You should probably read the documents on the home page as the "rebuilding" of
physical temples is a goal of NR for the future. We're not playing games
here...maybe you are...but we're not.

<<The US is growing more and more a oneparty-state. There isn´t really a
difference between democrats and republicans. They are all conservatives. >>

I'd like to know how you feel both parties are conservative? I don't see the
Democrats falling over hands and feet for the Religious Right

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:02:58 EST

Problem with buying land is that the government can take it back whenever they
want. ie. when you buy a house the government can still take it back even when
its 100% paid for if they want your land. And the prices for actually BUYING
the land away from the countries, even if they allowed it, would be ungodly
high.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:06:36 EST

> An aeria somewhere, preferebly in southern Europe, with a warm and nice
> climate. It could become like Disneyland in Paris but with a serious
approach.

Well the problem I see with that is that theres not a whole lot of land in
Europe that isnt taken up (unless you want to live in the Ukraine or
something). Arizona, Texas, Montana, and Alaska USA, and pieces of land in
Africa are probably the way to go if we did get a city. I'm more for the
Arizona/Texas/Africa climates myself. I dont want to freeze all day. Egypt
has quite a bit of unused land, 75% of its population is centered around the
rivers. Wouldnt be too difficult to get say...5 square kilometers of land in
Egypt and then build a few aqueducts to get water. Expensive, yes.
Difficult, no.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:08:18 EST

> The US is growing more and more a oneparty-state. There isn´t really a
> difference between democrats and republicans. They are all conservatives.

What we have is a strange mixed-breed political mutt. They're "liberal
conservatives". They don't like "liberal" things but they sure are liberal in
expressing their opinions. We have so-called "convervatives" that are bombing
abortion clinics. To me that doesnt seem conservative in the least.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:16:29 EST

> Why allow them at all?
> Too much driving kills our planet. Motorcars should be used only in remote
> aerias.

Its probably not going to kill the planet in the next 50-100 years, but after
the populations start growing and we are using more and more fossil fuels
eventually it'll cause some damage. Its not the pollution factor necessarily,
though that did enter my mind, that makes me turn away from cars. Its the
lack of excersize, car accidents, having to repave the streets every 5-10
years, etc. I also think the streets will look lots nicer without cars.
Without 1-2 ton cars driving around you can make the streets look and stay
much nicer. No wonder kids are out there spraypainting everything. The world
is full of black tar on the roads and dozens of colored signs stuck into the
grass, dog shit on every other lawn, etc. Plus, do you think people learn
better in 50-year old brick schools or in a nice, new, school building with
carpeted floors, brand-new desks, etc?
NOTE: Not saying things looking good is the answer to everything, just saying
that it has a moderate psychological impact. Think Hitler could have
motivated the Nazis to conquer the world with banners that had farm scenes on
them?


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:18:28 -0800

Well, not exaclty you are citing Eminent Domain, that is by far not a clear cut
process, under (Hawaiian Housing Authority) HHA v. Midkoff, there are limitations
when the government can *reposses* land. Yes, it can be done, however, fair
market value MUST be compensated to the previous owner of the land.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus

Tem---------------- wrote:

> From: Tem----------------
>
> Problem with buying land is that the government can take it back whenever they
> want. ie. when you buy a house the government can still take it back even when
> its 100% paid for if they want your land. And the prices for actually BUYING
> the land away from the countries, even if they allowed it, would be ungodly
> high.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> New hobbies? New curiosities? New enthusiasms?
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> Sign up for a new email list today


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:20:11 EST

> We might be forced to use them eventually. Not all people and governments
> like *romantics*

Maybe, but I hope not. But as a universal change I wouldnt mind it if every
government went back to swords and bows. Its lots better than bombs wrecking
everything and then having a thousand guys with machine guns parachute in and
start spraying lead everywhere.
NOTE: I believe the US is actually hypocritical. They don't allow the use of
nuclear weapons. I seriously doubt they would have done this if they found a
way to stop nukes. The only reason they dont allow them is because it evens
the playing field. They outlawed the one thing that gave other countries a
fighting chance. Now basically they're telling everyone to come after us with
conventional weapons, and we can have our radar track down their soldiers and
have computer-controlled tanks go in and slaughter them all with 0 casualties
for us.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:25:00 EST

<<Well, not exaclty you are citing Eminent Domain, that is by far not a clear
cut
process, under (Hawaiian Housing Authority) HHA v. Midkoff, there are
limitations
when the government can *reposses* land. Yes, it can be done, however, fair
market value MUST be compensated to the previous owner of the land.>>

In that case I say we go for Arizona or Texas. A U.S. location is best
because we've got construction companies here that are better suited for the
job of creating modern plumbing systems and adding fiberoptic connections,
etc.


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:37:37 -0500

>From: Tem----------------
>
>I'll comment instead hehe. They used nasty fish sauce that was basically
>fermented fish that was sitting in the bottom of a bucket for years and
years.

Have you ever tasted garum, the fish sauce?


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:46:31 EST

> Have you ever tasted garum, the fish sauce?

No I havent. I was calling it "nasty" refering to the ingredients.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	"Christer Wohlfarth" noetic@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:54:13 +0100

Salve, You wrote:

>Well the problem I see with that is that theres not a whole lot of land in
>Europe that isnt taken up (unless you want to live in the Ukraine or
>something).

The Ukraine is not bad actually, and i´m not joking at all. One can buy land there for a reasonable price and it is easy to go to the Ukraine from all over the world.
Being very european i find it not at all good if a setup is to be done some where in the US. The Ukraine is neutral, it needs money and tourists and also needs to do something more radical than just talking concerning the Chernobyl accident.
I think the goverment could be interrested in giving it a thought if a request came from Nova Roma.
I´m not anti-american in any way but so much policing and commanding has its origin in the US that it gives many people a hard time.
A former soviet republic like the Ukraine with its greek-orthodox roots and other more *eastern* feratures is very healthy for the sake of developing roman culture in the world.

>I dont want to freeze all day>

You can´t have it all.
The Ukraine is very hot in summer!

+ In hoc signo vinces +

Valentinus Maximus Scandinavicus
******EU******
noetic@--------


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:49:33 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/9/99 3:03:09 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, Tem----------------
writes:

<< Problem with buying land is that the government can take it back whenever
they
want. ie. when you buy a house the government can still take it back even
when
its 100% paid for if they want your land. And the prices for actually BUYING
the land away from the countries, even if they allowed it, would be ungodly
high. >>

So let's not buy it! Let's take it like our predecessor's did! VIVA ROMA!
I'm sure we can hold off a macronation army with our legion re-enactors! : )

--Dexippus : )


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:51:36 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/9/99 3:17:25 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, Tem----------------
writes:

<< NOTE: Not saying things looking good is the answer to everything, just
saying
that it has a moderate psychological impact. >>

No sweetie...looking good IS the answer to everything!

--Dexippus
Divus Maximus Extremus
The Flaming Queen of the Capitoline Hill


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:54:54 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/9/99 3:25:34 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, Tem----------------
writes:

<< NOTE: I believe the US is actually hypocritical. They don't allow the use
of
nuclear weapons. I seriously doubt they would have done this if they found a
way to stop nukes. The only reason they dont allow them is because it evens
the playing field. They outlawed the one thing that gave other countries a
fighting chance. Now basically they're telling everyone to come after us
with
conventional weapons, and we can have our radar track down their soldiers and
have computer-controlled tanks go in and slaughter them all with 0 casualties
for us. >>

And it's a wonderful thing too! : )

I shall quote from a recent movie "The PeaceMaker":

"I'm not afraid of the man who wants 10 nuclear weapons. I'm afraid of the
man who only wants one!"

I would advocate nations going back to conventional sword and intimate
fighting weaponry. Now those soldiers had guts. How much courage does it
take nuking your opponent or shooting him from hundreds of yards away.
Warfare is far too easy nowadays which is why it's so prevalent!

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:57:27 EST

In a me--------e dated 3/9/99 3:51:53 PM Ea--------n Standard Time, noetic@--------
writes:

<< The Ukraine is not bad actually, and i´m not joking at all. One can buy
land there for a reasonable price and it is easy to go to the Ukraine from all
over the world.
Being very european i find it not at all good if a setup is to be done some
where in the US. The Ukraine is neutral, it needs money and tourists and also
needs to do something more radical than just talking concerning the Chernobyl
accident.
I think the goverment could be interrested in giving it a thought if a
request came from Nova Roma. >>

I vote for either Cuba...Castro needs the money...or Brooklyn, USA! There are
already more Italians there then there are in Rome!

--Dexippus


Subject:	Myth/Eagle
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:59:11 EST

I think Nova Roma needs a creation myth. Every part of Roman history has some
kind of myth around it. We need to make something up like....Quirinius told
us to make him a temple and build a city around it or something. Or "Teach
the people what we were". Something.

Eagle newsletter: What about adding historical information/other content to
the Eagle. Could turn it into a "real" magazine.


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:03:31 -0500 (EST)

I echo the question of RMerrullo. Have you ever tasted fish sauce
(Garum)?? My feeling is that many of your observations are based n
personalities and not fact. No one is sure about how Garum really
tasted, but if tons of the stuff were sent to the legions for their
ccnsumption all over the Empire and more tons were exported to the Roman
Provinces for Civilian use, it could not have been that bad, Strong yes,
but hardly nasty. Nasty, and left in the bottom of a bucket for years,
I believe is a little extreme. Recently on this net was a Vietnamese
Fish Sauce recipe, which closely followed the Roman recipes. Now I
personnally am not that crazy about fish but "nasty and in the bottom of
a bucket" is probably not an accurate picture. In my world, to
criticize a national food is an insult, to the nationals who eat it
regularly, and is the mark of someone who really is not aquainted with
what he / she is talking about.

Marcus Municius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	"Chri-------- Wohlfarth" noetic@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:11:00 +0100

/Ukraine/

>>I vote for either Cuba...Castro needs the money...or Brooklyn, USA! There are
>already more Italians there then there are in Rome!
>
>--Dexippus
>
>
True!!!!

There are probably more americans in Rome than in Brooklyn, not to talk about poles!
The trouble is that you can´t trust Castro but you can trust the ukrainians?
Nova Roma SHOULD be situated in EUROPE all other options are jokes.
Who would ever believe a person *novaroman*, who says he/she lives in the US?
It´s a bit inconvenient for americans of course but on the other hand you are richer than us eoropeans and it´s easier to get a common accept for the idea of a new Imperium romanum if it´s domains are in the heartland of its origins.

+ In hoc signo vinces +

Valentinus MaximuScandinavicus
******EU******
noetic@--------


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:06:55 EST

<>

Exactly my thinking. It doesnt take any courage/skill to push a button and
send a missle flying off a someone. Much easier to send people to war when
the soldiers know they can kill the enemy before the enemy can even see them.
Actually, its possible that swordfighting would encourage people to join the
army. I would much rather be trained to fight with a sword and be confident I
can defend myself with it than to worry about people shooting me in the back
from a mile away.


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:08:05 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/9/99 4:00:07 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, Tem----------------
writes:

<< I think Nova Roma needs a creation myth. Every part of Roman history has
some
kind of myth around it. We need to make something up like....Quirinius told
us to make him a temple and build a city around it or something. Or "Teach
the people what we were". Something.

Eagle newsletter: What about adding historical information/other content to
the Eagle. Could turn it into a "real" magazine.
>>

I will give me whole-heartedly NO on this!!!!!

"Making something up" is not what we are all about. Some of us take the
Religio Romana and the nature of the Gods too seriously to just "make
something up".

Please keep any creation fantasies to yourself.

Unless either Cassius or Germanicus want to comment on this and all of a
sudden inform us that Quirinus or Venus or Mars decended upon them and
commissioned them to form Nova Roma, I will ask that we nip any discussion of
such in the bud.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:09:54 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/9/99 4:00:07 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, Tem----------------
writes:

<< Eagle newsletter: What about adding historical information/other content
to
the Eagle. Could turn it into a "real" magazine. >>

I will assume you did not mean to be sarcastic here! What the hell do you
mean "it could turn into a "real" magazine"?

Considering that you're the one looking to build a Nova Roma city with some
cement from a hardware store, I don't think you can actually comment on
"real".

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:12:16 EST

In a message dated 3/9/99 4:03:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jmath669642reng@-------- --------es:

<< My feeling is that many of your observations are based n
personalities and not fact. No one is sure about how Garum really
tasted, but if tons of the stuff were sent to the legions for their
ccnsumption all over the Empire and more tons were exported to the Roman
Provinces for Civilian use, it could not have been that bad, Strong yes,
but hardly nasty. Nasty, and left in the bottom of a bucket for years,
I believe is a little extreme. Recently on this net was a Vietnamese
Fish Sauce recipe, which closely followed the Roman recipes. Now I
personnally am not that crazy about fish but "nasty and in the bottom of
a bucket" is probably not an accurate picture. In my world, to
criticize a national food is an insult, to the nationals who eat it
regularly, and is the mark of someone who really is not aquainted with
what he / she is talking about.
>>

Well if it was fermented at the bottom of a barrell for years, I would venture
to say that it would probably have caused severe illness if consumed. And
since it didn't seem to, let's just say that it may have been an acquired
taste.

Nasty? I don't know...but I'm sure it was "Fishy"

--Dexippus

"Sushi anyone?"


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:08:45 EST

> I vote for either Cuba...Castro needs the money...or Brooklyn, USA! There
> are already more Italians there then there are in Rome!

::chuckle:: I still like that Ukraine idea. ::laugh::

Actually Ukraine probably is a good spot but I just cant picture it....maybe
once I've thought it over a bit.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:14:34 EST

<<There are probably more americans in Rome than in Brooklyn, not to talk
about poles!
The trouble is that you can´t trust Castro but you can trust the ukrainians?
Nova Roma SHOULD be situated in EUROPE all other options are jokes.
Who would ever believe a person *novaroman*, who says he/she lives in the US?
It´s a bit inconvenient for americans of course but on the other hand you are
richer than us eoropeans and it´s easier to get a common accept for the idea
of a new Imperium romanum if it´s domains are in the heartland of its
origins.>>

Okay looks like I change my vote to the Ukraine. Lots of open space, they
need the money, etc. But we NEED to get satellite TV :)

"I'd rather be the first man in a barbarian camp than the second man in Rome."
-Caesar


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:15:23 EST

In a me--------e dated 3/9/99 4:07:31 PM Ea--------n Standard Time, noetic@--------
writes:

<< The trouble is that you can´t trust Castro but you can trust the
ukrainians?
Nova Roma SHOULD be situated in EUROPE all other options are jokes.
Who would ever believe a person *novaroman*, who says he/she lives in the US?
It´s a bit inconvenient for americans of course but on the other hand you are
richer than us eoropeans and it´s easier to get a common accept for the idea
of a new Imperium romanum if it´s domains are in the heartland of its origins.
>>

I think the argument can be said for the Ukraine also. Who would ever believe
a person "novaroman" who says he/she lives in the Ukraine!

And there is nothing funny about an NR city in the U.S. The founders are from
the States for crying out loud! Your almost now on the verge of being
insulting, Temale!

--Dexippus

"Europe...Asia...the U.S....can we please get beyond these boundaries! We're
9 months to a new millennium and we're still talking nationalism!"


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:	jmath669642reng@-------- (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:17:00 -0500 (EST)

Hmmmmmm! I would be interested in your age Tamale!! I don't think you
realize this, but Nova Roma is a serious micro-nation devoted to the
re-creation of Rome. We are under a Roman style government and a
constitution written for that purpose. This is not a Disney land
exercise with flying frogs and magic castles. The people of Nova Roma
are serious believers in the Romn Religio or serious students of ancient
Rome. I would expect some onsideration for those in your messages.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:27:37 EST

<>

Thats why I put quotes around "real". "real" as in a magazine people buy off
the shelves in the local wal-mart :). As for "Considering that you're the one
looking to build a Nova Roma city with some cement from a hardware store...",
I've been putting much more effort into it than that. I've got city design
plans, getting estimates on land costs and costs of quartz tiles for the
streets, etc. Consulted an architect and researched alot of the things in the
past that went over big (ie. hanging gardens).

"I would rather be the first man in a barbarian camp than the second man in
Rome."
-Gaius Julius Caesar


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:28:30 EST

<<Well if it was fermented at the bottom of a barrell for years, I would
venture
to say that it would probably have caused severe illness if consumed. And
since it didn't seem to, let's just say that it may have been an acquired
taste.>>

I got the information about it being fermented from the History channel.
Sorry if I was misinformed.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:30:22 EST

I DIDNT SAY THAT. I was responding to that. Theres not a word of anything I
said in that paragraph. Dont get ticked at me for something I didnt say.
Thats the second email now that you've responded to the wrong person. I'm
getting a bit tired of this.

<<<< The trouble is that you can´t trust Castro but you can trust the
ukrainians?
Nova Roma SHOULD be situated in EUROPE all other options are jokes.
Who would ever believe a person *novaroman*, who says he/she lives in the US?
It´s a bit inconvenient for americans of course but on the other hand you are
richer than us eoropeans and it´s easier to get a common accept for the idea
of a new Imperium romanum if it´s domains are in the heartland of its origins.
>>

I think the argument can be said for the Ukraine also. Who would ever believe
a person "novaroman" who says he/she lives in the Ukraine!

And there is nothing funny about an NR city in the U.S. The founders are from
the States for crying out loud! Your almost now on the verge of being
insulting, Temale!>>


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:31:49 EST

I understand its a serious micronation. It was a bad idea, and I'm sorry. At
the time I thought it was good, and now I realize it isnt. No need to be
insulting.

<<Hmmmmmm! I would be interested in your age Tamale!! I don't think you
realize this, but Nova Roma is a serious micro-nation devoted to the
re-creation of Rome. We are under a Roman style government and a
constitution written for that purpose. This is not a Disney land
exercise with flying frogs and magic castles. The people of Nova Roma
are serious believers in the Romn Religio or serious students of ancient
Rome. I would expect some onsideration for those in your messages.>>


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:19:15 -0600 (CST)

On Tue, 9 M--------999, Tem---------------- wrote:

>Eagle newsletter: What about adding historical information/other
>content to the Eagle. Could turn it into a "real" magazine.

OK, I think I understand what you meant by a 'real' magazine, and that
the term was not meant to be insulting. However, the Eagle, like just
about any other newsletter of its type, is dependent for content on
submmittals by its subscribers. Which is a very professorial way of
saying, 'If you want to see something in the Eagle, research it; write
it up; and submit it!'

There have been historical articles in past issues...but again, if
nobody writes 'em, we don't see 'em.

Flavia Claudia Editrix--Have you got a good bureau assignment for this
man? Anything in particular you'd like to see? (My stuff is coming, I
promise!)

-- L Marius Fimbria


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:35:56 EST

What I envision is not necessarily a printed-out mag probably because its not
really news and things that have happened recently. I'm thinking along the
lines of an NR history site. Like...

www.novaroma.org/historia/

Basically have a timeline and features underneath the years that would be
links to articles about the events. Example:

o 772 BC
Rape of Rhea Silvia
o 771 BC
Rhea Silvia gives birth to Romulus and Remus
o 753 BC
Remus captured by followers of Numitor
Amulius killed, Numitor reinstated as King of Alba Longa
Celer kills Remus.
Founding of Rome by Romulus
etc.


Subject:	Australia
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:46:06 EST

Australia would be a good place for the city.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:47:10 EST

In a message dated 3/9/99 8:39:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, N. Moravius Vado
(n_moravius@--------) writes:

> Surely 'Roman' is a state of mind, an attitude, a set of values, a way
of looking at the world. To be Roman means to be cosmopolitan. I am
concerned, citizens, that Nova Roma City or Remona or whatever its
founders decide to call it, once built, with whatever noble intentions,
would quickly become, like some Amish communities in Pennsylvania, a
quaint peculiarity for tourists to gawp at. Let's not confuse
reconstruction with revival.

The variations on the "Nova Roma Capital" subject have continued to range
through a whole variety of ideas. Interesting stuff, even though most of it
varies *widely* from the original intent of the sovereign land hopes actually
claimed by Nova Roma.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:56:04 EST

i have only one question for Nova Roma:

Do you plan on changing the old roman ways? It would seem the old system
needs a little tweaking. while forming a government on roman roots, is it
good to reinstate the plebian and patrician system? and let's say you did get
a capital, or even a building, but are the people in that building going to
have to work out the same social ills rome had just because we are sticking to
the old ways? I respect Rome, but i can't say the system was perfect. i do
hope we work to improve the government, not to preserve old mistakes.


Subject:	In Nomine Patris
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:20:41 -0800 (PST)

Salvete omnes.

Until now, I have been going by the nomen Mala. I chose this because it is
Latin for "jaw", which is also the meaning of my surname Gangale in the
Calabrese dialect. However, in proper usage, a nomen must have both a male
and female form, and given the meaning of "malus", this would be a most
inauspicious name.

I recently happened across the Roman name Martianus, and I feel that this
name unites two of my primary interests, the study of Rome civilization and
the exploration of the planet Mars. It is a name which simultaneously
harkens the past and summons the future, and affirms my belief that whatever
great endeavors humankind undertakes, Romans must lead the way, and that
just as Mars is the most Roman of the gods, so in time shall Mars be the
most Roman of the planets.

Therefore, since, as far as I know, the proposed gens Mala was never
officially enrolled by the Censors, in the name of Pater Mars, I hereby
declare the establishment of the gens Martiana, declare myself to be Marcus
Martianus Gangalius and paterfamilias of the gens Martiana, declare my wife
to be Gaia Martiana Gangalia Cunicula, and declare my son to be Darius
Martianus Gangalius. I so record the aforementioned declarations in the
Temple of Mars, and I petition the Censors to enroll our gens and its
members on the civil lists of Nova Roma. Ave Mars!

May the gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.

Valete.

Marcus Martianus Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
gangale@--------

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>

The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>

Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>

The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>

World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>


Subject:	Re: In Nomine Patris
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:21:13 EST

i support anyone who recognizes war as a part of society. Ave Mars.


Subject:	On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:23:59 -0800 (PST)

Salvete omnes.

In Nova Roma, the first gentes were enrolled in the Patrician class, while
the later gentes are of the Plebeian class. I believe this was true in Roma
Antiqua as well, but with the important difference that the Patricians were
originally the wealthiest -- thus the most powerful -- families. Over the
centuries, however, many Plebeian families became wealthy and entered the
Senatorial order. At the same time, the Plebeian class gained the right to
form its own assembly and to elect Tribunes who wielded the veto. Thus in
the late Republic some Patricians saw political advantage in becoming
Plebeians. I believe Cicero's nemesis Clodius was an example of this:
"Clodius" is the Plebeian form of "Claudius."

So, in Nova Roma, Plebeians have all of the advantages they enjoyed in the
late Republic, and apparently none of the disadvantages they suffered in the
early history of Rome. Am I wrong in saying that the only "advantage" to
being a Patrician in Nova Roma is in the prestige with which history has
endowed that appellation? Then, since these class distinctions reflect the
traditions in Roma Antiqua, and seem to materially harm or diminish no one
in Nova Roma, in the absence of a compelling argument to change the present
arrangement, I am inclined to support the status quo.

It has been proposed that the right to vote be contingent on some specific
level of education. As with the proposed income tax, I ask, how shall the
State verify this? I could tell you that I have several PhDs, and none of
you would be able to gainsay me. Or anyone else, for that matter. Anyone
could falsify a diploma.

And if someone has so many letters after his or her name, so what? Napoleon
observed that the biggest fools he ever met were learned men.

Then there is Robert Heinlein's idea that only those who have honorably
completed military service should have the right to vote. After all, if you
have not served the State, by what right should you demand a say in the
affairs of the State? Given the military traditions and virtues of Roma
Antiqua, perhaps there are some in Nova Roma who would want to consider this
idea.

There are all kinds of schemes one can dream up the empower some and
disenfranchise others. In Roma Antiqua, voting was conducted by tribes,
each having one vote. Citizens of the lower classes were all herded
together into a few tribes, while disproportionate number of tribes
encompassing the opulent few of the Senatorial and Equestrian orders assured
them of political control. I trust that it is the intention of our
magistrates to assign the gentes to centuries and tribes in as equitable a
manner as possible, for I daresay that we, the citizens of Nova Roma, shall
stand for nothing less.

Quirites, is it not self-evident that we are a self-selected body of
Citizens, that we have come together as Citizens of Nova Roma because we
have an interest in one or more facets of the culture of Roma Antiqua?
Would it be unreasonable for us to take it on faith that, while some may
have come here possessing knowledge to teach, we are all here to learn? Are
we not all of us students of Rome? If there are any who are not, they will
inevitably leave our Republic. Thus they will not vote. Thus we need apply
no litmus test.

Let us take this journey together. Let us not devise ways to divide ourselves.

May the gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.

Valete.

Marcus Martianus Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
gangale@--------

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>

The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>

Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>

The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>

World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>


Subject:	Re: Australia
From:	Ira Adams iadams@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:25:51 -0600

>From: Tem----------------
>
>Australia would be a good place for the city.

Yeah, right! There's an ongoing legal/political struggle between native
Australians and those of European descent for the rights to much of the
land. There's an growing undercurrent of resentment against immigrants
and financial exploiters from other asian countries. There's sensitivity
about Australian identity. And you think somewhere in there you're going
to fit a sovereign re-created Rome belonging to foreigners, mostly
American?

Without any offense intended, I join with Marcus Minucius in wondering
about your age. Were you going to answer him on that?

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus
(The cognomen AIN'T because I live in the American "South")


Subject:	On Taxes
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:29:08 -0800 (PST)

Salvete omnes.

It has been proposed that Nova Roma establish a tax based on income. This
idea has been objected to as being unethical. As to this objection, I have
as yet no opinion; however, I do see an objection to this proposal on
practical terms.

How do you, Quirites, know how much money I make? I could tell you that I
spend my nights asleep on the steps of the public library, that is spend my
mornings bumming for spare change, and that I spend my afternoons on the
library's computers haranguing all of you with obnoxious e-mail, and none of
you would be able to gainsay me. Or anyone else, for that matter. Anyone
could falsify an IRS Form 1040.

And how shall the State ascertain our incomes? Are we to hire armies of
treasury agents to audit everyone? I think not! Therefore, what is the use
of legislation for which the State will not have the means to verify
compliance? Such a measure would invite tax evasion, and would introduce a
pernicious element of mistrust amongst the citizenry: which of us is
cheating Mater Roma of her due! Quirites, let us never allow such an
abomination to enter the gates of Rome!

In stark contrast, a flat tax requires only one thing to be determined: did
the check arrive or not?

May the gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.

Valete.

Marcus Martianus Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
gangale@--------

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>

The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>

Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>

The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>

World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:28:38 EST

as i recall, in roma antiquia, there were two seats in the senate to be elcted
from plebes only correct?


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:45:36 EST

Well this is kind of depressing. Personally I thought we would create a small
city somewhere and then use that as our "home" of sorts. Not a seccessionist
movement as you mentioned. Just sort of like a...demonstration of Nova Roman
ideals that other cities/nations could use as a model.

> Again, Nova Roma has no intention of founding some sort of Utopian
Community,
> or any "homeland community" whatsoever. Hopefully one day we WILL grow to
> the point where we will have a world capital... and when that happens it
would
> likely contain some sort of commemorative park, a couple of administrative
> offices, etc.


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:06:53 -0800 (PST)

At 03:59 PM 3/9/99 EST, Tem---------------- wrote:
>From: Tem----------------
>
>I think Nova Roma needs a creation myth. Every part of Roman history has some
>kind of myth around it. We need to make something up like....Quirinius told
>us to make him a temple and build a city around it or something. Or "Teach
>the people what we were". Something.
>

Salvete omnes.

I believe that fact will turn out to be more fascinating -- and far more
instructive -- than any fiction we could devise. As the recently appointed
custodian of the Camenaeum, I would like to gather your observations
regarding the events of Nova Roma's first year, so that I may write an
Annal. Be conscious of the fact that Roman history is once again being
made, and that it must be recorded.

Valete.

M. Martianus Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
gangale@--------

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>

The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>

Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>

The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>

World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>


Subject:	My Name
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:25:13 EST


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:27:35 EST

ah but isn't it the roman people who decide the myths? shall we make up a
myth on our own, citizens, that's how it works, yes? I say it's our duty, not
the government of Nova Roma to make up a myth. that means plebes and
citizentry. so go ahead! circulate your myths and see who has the best of
them, or the most roman for that matter!


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:29:15 EST

I would personaly vouch for the following: do not expect too much, but don't
settle for a garden and an office. a man's reach should always exceed his
grasp.


Subject:	Re: My Name
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:30:03 EST

on that note i am:Valerius Maximus


Subject:	Re: Greeting from Brasil (was Re: Taxes)
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 17:30:19 -0800

That is Portugese, Temele.


Subject:	Re: Australia
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:33:01 EST

Hadnt really thought about that. Yeesh I'm sorry. I am just putting ideas on
the board people. Attack the ideas, not the person. I dont have a magic hat
where I pull out 100% good ideas. The reason you see many bad ones from me is
because I've also put out LOTS of ideas. So if I put out 20 ideas and 2 are
bad, and someone else puts out 5 and 2 are bad, I dont consider that the same.
Anyways..

<<Yeah, right! There's an ongoing legal/political struggle between native
Australians and those of European descent for the rights to much of the
land. There's an growing undercurrent of resentment against immigrants
and financial exploiters from other asian countries. There's sensitivity
about Australian identity. And you think somewhere in there you're going
to fit a sovereign re-created Rome belonging to foreigners, mostly
American?>>


Subject:	Re: On Taxes
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:34:32 EST

<<How do you, Quirites, know how much money I make? I could tell you that I
spend my nights asleep on the steps of the public library, that is spend my
mornings bumming for spare change, and that I spend my afternoons on the
library's computers haranguing all of you with obnoxious e-mail, and none of
you would be able to gainsay me. Or anyone else, for that matter. Anyone
could falsify an IRS Form 1040.>>

It would be a matter of trust. The idea was rejected, and I've withdrawn it.


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 17:36:45 -0800

Lucentia Claudia Aprica wrote one sometime ago. I'm not really sure what
happened with it.

ericius


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:41:17 EST

heh. i'd certaintly like to hear it. How about something involving Jupitor?
Jupitor gave a vision to the founders, of a new Rome, one with the same
grandeur and vision of a better future, then he showed them the world as it
could be and showed them their ultimate destiney. with this the founders set
off to set up there new nations based on the principles taught by Jupitor, and
adopted teh old ways and gods for those who choose the path to appreciate.
sounds like a legend to me


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 19:57:52 -0600

Ave!

Actually, it only takes a few months to make a good Liquamen. All you
need is
fresh anchovies, salt and an urn with cover, and spigot at the bottom,
in which to pack them.

--Venator

> From: Tem----------------
>
> > Anchovies were most likely enjoyed by Romans...Venator, care to comment?
>
> I'll comment instead hehe. They used nasty fish sauce that was basically
> fermented fish that was sitting in the bottom of a bucket for years and years.


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 19:58:30 -0600

Ave!

That was a post of mine. If anyone is interested drop me a private
e-mail
and I'll send it.

-- Venator

James Mathews wrote:

> I echo the question of RMerrullo. Have you ever tasted fish sauce
> (Garum)?? My feeling is that many of your observations are based n
> personalities and not fact. No one is sure about how Garum really
> tasted, but if tons of the stuff were sent to the legions for their
> ccnsumption all over the Empire and more tons were exported to the Roman
> Provinces for Civilian use, it could not have been that bad, Strong yes,
> but hardly nasty. Nasty, and left in the bottom of a bucket for years,
> I believe is a little extreme. Recently on this net was a Vietnamese
> Fish Sauce recipe, which closely followed the Roman recipes. Now I
> personnally am not that crazy about fish but "nasty and in the bottom of
> a bucket" is probably not an accurate picture. In my world, to
> criticize a national food is an insult, to the nationals who eat it
> regularly, and is the mark of someone who really is not aquainted with
> what he / she is talking about.
>
> Marcus Municius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 20:00:38 -0600

Ave!

The process of making Liquamen , or Garum, is a sort of fermentation.
Basically though, one packs the fish in layers of salt, weights it down
and
the juices accumulate in the bottom of the vessel to be drained off and
used.
A modern equivalent is the Asian condiment: Nuc Maum (sp.). I have used
it in
recreating some Thai recipes in the past. It is strongly flavored, like
souped up Worchestershire sauce on steroids (W. sauce does have
anchovies as a component), which is also made with anchovies.

-- Venator

Tem---------------- wrote:

> <<Well if it was fermented at the bottom of a barrell for years, I would
> venture
> to say that it would probably have caused severe illness if consumed. And
> since it didn't seem to, let's just say that it may have been an acquired
> taste.>>
>
> I got the information about it being fermented from the History channel.
> Sorry if I was misinformed.


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 20:09:21 -0600

Ave!

Our Cultural ancestors did indeed have pasta of sorts. All one needs to
make
pasta (paste) is wheat flour (which they had) and eggs or water.
Perhaps a
little salt or other flavorings. But, all grain using cultures had
pasta,
noodles or dumplings of a sort. One source I read about the history of
Italian
cooking states that many modern forms of pasta would be recognized by
the
late-period Romans. Modern hard, red winter wheat does make better
pastas than
the period soft wheats would though. This wheat, the Durum of
commercial pasta
labels (BTW: Semolina is simply a fancy word for flour), has a higher
gluten content. (Sidebar: 7 cups of Durum flour will yield 1 1/2 cups of
gluten, soft wheat yields about 1/2 cup.) This is the protein part of
the wheat,
which when separated from the starchy part of the wheat, has a rubbery
texture.
This is why (if you make bread from scratch) overworked dough turns out
overly
chewy bread.

-- Venator

Dexippus@-------- wrote:

> The Romans did not have spaghetti or pasts of any sort. Pasta was brought to
> Italy by Marco Polo from China. Of course...this was much later in history
> than the Roman period. Anchovies were most likely enjoyed by
> Romans...Venator, care to comment? Definately garlic and olive oil. I
> believe pine nuts were known. Perhaps capers too. Grapes....definately
> grapes! : )
>
> --Dexippus
> <<now hungry!>>


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 20:16:44 -0600

Ave Temale!

If I may. I have participated in the SCA for the better part of 25
years. The
persona I portray, Alasdair Morgan of Clan Gunn, is a mercenary
longbowman,
bodyguard, blacksmith and "jack o' many trades". I try to keep in
practice in all Alasdair's skills so
my portrayel is as authentic as possible. I shoot a longbow and make my
own
archery tackle: bows, arrows, points, quiver, armguard, costumes,
knives, boots, jewelry, etceteras...

A longbowman takes a long time to train properly. A good longbowman
takes a lot
of practice to stay that way. Which is why the English army would pay a
longbowman twice as much as a regular sword-swinger.

Gunpowder weapons supplanted the longbowman for very good reason, it
takes little
skill or training to be a combat adequate gunman. In that, I am highly
trained
and well practiced. With my modern, large calibre rifle, good optics, a
concealed
position and a clear view...

Banning "modern weapons" from possession by the Citizenry only results
in a safe working environment for the criminal element. When Nova Roma
becomes a city in fact as well as intention, there will be a criminal
element, and an element who will wish to become an Autocracy. Arms in
the possession of the Cives are the "teeth of Liberty."

You are coming up with some good ideas. If you would like a sounding
board,
please feel free to start an e-conversation with me at
amgunn@--------

In Amicus -- Venator

Tem---------------- wrote:

> The reason I like the idea of our own city is that we could get it to look how
> we want. I like the idea of creating an "eighth wonder of the world" myself.
> I dont think a city that is built with the same technologies as the Romans had
> would work. I DO think a city based on the Romans but with more technology
> would be good.
>
> As for the U.S. being based on Rome...it is, but it has been twisted and
> mauled over the years into a pile of goo that no Roman would ever dream came
> from them. First of all democracy is much different, and in fact I believe
> democracy is actually worse because you have people voting that dont know what
> they're talking about whereas the Senate was composed of people who have had
> long political lives. The next thing is the U.S. and almost all other
> countries around the world have turned to gunpowder, cars, etc. We could use
> bicycles instead of cars - cars could be parked in a certain area outside the
> city. I'd prefer that Nova Roma, if it ever did use weapons, would only use
> bows and swords. Bows were advancing ten times as fast as guns in the
> medieval times, but development of them nearly stopped with the arrival of the
> gun. I think with a little work we could get bow-style weapons that can
> compete effectively. There are even ways that you could have a "gatline bow"
> firing tons of high powered arrows. And longbows are even better in some ways
> than guns. You can have them rain down on your enemy - making trenches like
> those in world war 1 obsolete. (Not sure WHY nobody thought to use them back
> then). Oh well thats all for now.


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 20:26:51 -0600

Ave V. Max. Scandinavicus

If I may:

Nova Roma is a Republican re-awakening of Roma Antiqua, not Imperial.
And, being an American of predominantly European descent (Italic,
Germanic, Celtic, Nordic), my belief is that Rome is The Eternal City,
and anywhere we build a New City is a but a satellite, a provincial
capital.

In Amicus - Venator

By no sign do we conquer!

Christer Wohlfarth wrote:

> True!!!!
>
> There are probably more americans in Rome than in Brooklyn, not to talk about poles!
> The trouble is that you can´t trust Castro but you can trust the ukrainians?
> Nova Roma SHOULD be situated in EUROPE all other options are jokes.
> Who would ever believe a person *novaroman*, who says he/she lives in the US?
> It´s a bit inconvenient for americans of course but on the other hand you are richer than us eoropeans and it´s easier to get a common accept for the idea of a new

> ---- Imperium romanum ----

> if it´s domains are in the heartland of its origins.
>
> + In hoc signo vinces +
>
> Valentinus MaximuScandinavicus
> ******EU******


Subject:	Re: Political scapegoat in Judea (was power and glory)
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 20:33:28 -0600

Ave Quintus Fabius!

I appreciate your effort. I have have been imparting similar
information for some
time now in the Asatru lists to which I subscribe, though nowhere near
as
elegantly or informatively as you. Also: Sanhedrin is the correct
spelling. There is speculation that Yeshua's family was of a party
opposed to the Sanhedrin.

-- Venator

SFP55@-------- wrote:

> What we had here if you analyze it, logically, was a power struggle between
> two Jewish powers the Religious Right, and the Liberals. The Right wanted to
> keep the status quo because it kept them in power, Herod Antipas, the
> tetrarch, wasn't stupid enough to revolt because he didn't have the support
> from the other despots yet, and Parthia was non committal to helping.
>
> Enter Jesus bar Joseph, a mystic with incredible charisma. He quickly
> mobilized the populace with his popular message and parlor tricks, so much so,
> that the people acclaimed him the "Messiah."
> (Interestingly enough Jesus never said anything about revolting from Rome, if
> anything his parables were about keeping God's word, and living a good
> righteous life on this earth. When asked about Rome he gave the famous render
> unto Caesar, what is due to Caesar quote.)
>
> However, the problem now lay in the fact that after the sermon of the Mound,
> Christians know it as the miracle of the loaves and fishes, the rabble
> acclaimed him King of the Jews. Now the Religious right and Herod did take
> notice. The Religious High Council "The Sahedern" (sic) decided that this was
> not a good situation.
>
> The Jews and Rome have always had a turbulent history. The last Jewish revolt
> had been during the administration of Syrian legate Varius, where 2000 Jews
> (mostly high ranking) had been put to death for treason (declaring
> independence) against Rome. The high council did not want a revisit by the
> Eagles (no not the music group).
>
> So Jesus had to go. But how to remove him without making him a rallying
> symbol of revolt? The plan was simple. Have Rome execute him as common
> criminal. The rest was pretty much easy. Although warned, (Judas' famous
> speech) Jesus went along with his preaching like he didn't care and by this
> time he had a huge following. How many we aren't sure, but it was
> substantial. The Council didn't want to rile this mob, so they bribed a one
> of Jesus' right hand men to keep tabs on him for them and to let them know
> when the "false prophet" was going to be alone.
>
> When the crowd had dispersed to observe the high Jewish holiday of Passover,
> the council struck. Samaritan guards of Herod seized him and took him to
> Pilate, procurator pro pratore of Judea. He happened to be in Jerusalem at
> the time, the timing is very convenient. I find this hard to believe that
> the high council didn't arrange this somehow. Pilate was told that Jesus was
> fomenting rebellion against Rome and Judea.
>
> He asked Jesus about this. Jesus was non committal. Herod happened also to
> be in town, probably visiting the temple for the feast day. (Happenence? We
> don't think so!) Pilate sent Jesus to him, since he was a Galileian and Herod
> was a tetrarch of Galilee.
> Herod didn't want to anything to with a rebel, lest Rome hear of it, and sent
> him quickly back.
>
> By this time it was dawning on Pilate that he was about to meddle in Jewish
> politics, something Tiberias had forbade him to do. The last thing he wanted
> to do was have a riot on his watch. So he scourged him as punishment for
> inciting rebellion, but since no witnesses could be found to testify against
> the would be king, (an important point), Pilate decided to set him free.
>
> But at dawn the council had organized a huge mob, clamoring for his death as
> traitor to Judea and Rome. Pilate, who was a weak reed, (the fact he had one
> cohorte of auxilia about 400 men only at his beck and call might have colored
> his decision) made one last attempt. Since it was a holiday, condemned men
> were often let free. Pilate offered a choice of a murderer or Jesus the
> traitor. The crowd chose the murderer.
> Seeing the handwriting on the wall, Pilate bowed to the inevitable. Washing
> his hands in an elaborate ritual (and covering his ass) Pilate gave him to the
> mob.
>
> What I find interesting is the speed of all this. He was arrested on Thursday
> at probably 7:00 p.m. in the evening and was dead by high noon the next day.
> The council was very motivated. Reading in between the lines they were very
> scared of what Jesus bar Joseph represented. And they took him out very fast
> when he became a threat to their influence.
>
> Sorry this was so long, but I wanted to explain why the political climate had
> much to do with Jesus death. I spent two years studying historical Jesus. I
> wanted to share my knowledge of what I found.
>
> Valete!
> Q. Fabius


Subject:	Re: Rome: Power & Glory
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 20:37:11 -0600

Avete!

I have noticed quite a bit of visual repetition in the "re-creation"
vignettes. What was
a census table in one episode is a patronage payment scene in the next.
What is
the aftermath of a woman's suicide one night becomes the aftermath of an
assasination 24 hours later. History Channel / A & E may not be
perfect, but they
are much better. And those "experts" who are commenting, several times
they've
contradicted themselves in the same sentences, let alone from segment to
segment.

>From what I've seen so far, the Etruscans were artsy, organized,
sex-crazed,
slaveholding, blood-thirsty and generally fun to be around. The Romans
had few
original ideas, but were great at building, and destroying, and
back-stabbing
politics, ad nauseum...

-- Venator


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 20:40:45 -0600

Ave Gaius Marius!

As both cauliflower and broccoli are members of the cabbage family
(caulis or
brassica) which the Romans did grow - maybe.
Tofu, being a soybean derivative, is not Roman, in the Antiqua sense.
Soybeans
did not make it into the West from China until (if I recall correctly)
the 18th
century. They were not grown extensively in the U.S. until the early
20th.
Anchovies, definitely YES! Important for Garum/Liquamen and for eating
in and
of themselves. (Freshly baked anchovies in cream sauce!)
Pepperoni, some sort of sausage - possibly pepperoni like. Most meat
using cultures made/make sausage. It is a
wonderful way to preserve meat for long term storage. Though the use of
pepper
would have been extravagent in Roma Antiqua, plus modern pepperoni uses
cayenne,
which is a new world plant.
Garlic! The Legions ran on the stuff (as did the rest of the ancient
world).
Onions, ditto! The Legions normally ran on rations of weak wine,
barley, onions and garlic
on campaign.
Spaghetti, the Romans did have noodles. Most grain using cultures would
have
some sort of noodle or dumpling.
Capers (capperis from th Greek Kapperis), yes - a plant native to the
Mediterranean. (When did man NOT try to see if something was edible!?)
Pine nuts, aka pignoli, the edible seed of the Pinus pinea, a pine tree
native
to southern Europe. (Or other such pine trees with edible seeds, such
as the pinyon tree of the American southwest.)
Olive oil: food, skin emoillient, lubricant, preservative... Such a
wonderful
Gift of the Gods! (Almost as good as Wine!)

In Amicus et Fidelis -- Venator

RMerullo wrote:

> 1. To Quaestor Venator and others with knowledge of Roman food, can you
> tell me whether any of the ingredients in the stuff that I made to eat
> during the show were used in Roman dishes or had any close equivalents?
> Ingredients: cauliflower, broccoli, tofu, anchovies, pepperoni, garlic (I
> know that garlic was used), onions, spaghetti (Romans did not have it or
> anything like it, right?), capers, pine nuts, and, of course, olive oil (the
> oil of the Roman world). (major snip)
>
> Valete
>
> Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Re: Myth/Eagle
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:18:42 EST

Woohoo! I was feeling pretty down on my luck with the negative comments about
the myth. Thanks to everyone to likes the idea :) I'm havin' a pretty good
day now.


Subject:	Identity
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 20:58:37 -0600

Avete Omnes!

I should find it of great service if persons posting to this list would
include some minimal signature line, rather than depending on their
e-mail address as an identifier.

Valete -- Venator


Subject:	Re: In Nomine Patris
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:09:14 -0600

Ave Marcus Martianus et Familas!

As Paterfamilias pro Gens Ulleria, I say thee well come to your new Roman
identity!

In Amicus et Fidelis -- Venator

Gail and Thomas Gangale wrote:

> From: Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Until now, I have been going by the nomen Mala. I chose this because it is
> Latin for "jaw", which is also the meaning of my surname Gangale in the
> Calabrese dialect. However, in proper usage, a nomen must have both a male
> and female form, and given the meaning of "malus", this would be a most
> inauspicious name.
>
> I recently happened across the Roman name Martianus, and I feel that this
> name unites two of my primary interests, the study of Rome civilization and
> the exploration of the planet Mars. It is a name which simultaneously
> harkens the past and summons the future, and affirms my belief that whatever
> great endeavors humankind undertakes, Romans must lead the way, and that
> just as Mars is the most Roman of the gods, so in time shall Mars be the
> most Roman of the planets.
>
> Therefore, since, as far as I know, the proposed gens Mala was never
> officially enrolled by the Censors, in the name of Pater Mars, I hereby
> declare the establishment of the gens Martiana, declare myself to be Marcus
> Martianus Gangalius and paterfamilias of the gens Martiana, declare my wife
> to be Gaia Martiana Gangalia Cunicula, and declare my son to be Darius
> Martianus Gangalius. I so record the aforementioned declarations in the
> Temple of Mars, and I petition the Censors to enroll our gens and its
> members on the civil lists of Nova Roma. Ave Mars!
>
> May the gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
>
> Valete.
>
> Marcus Martianus Gangalius
> -------------
> Tom and Gail Gangale
> gangale@--------
>
> Mars Society California
> <a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>
>
> The Martian Time Web Site
> <a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>
>
> The Martian Ministry of Culture
> <a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>
>
> Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
> <a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>
>
> The National Primary System
> <a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>
>
> World GenWeb Calabria
> <a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Have you visited our new web site?
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> Onelist: Helping to create Internet communities


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:27:46 EST

Actually, my thinking is it will deter criminals. See, this actually
corresponds to another post that I've only told to one person. My view for
the NR military is, instead of an actual military, a self-defense course and
physical fitness course, which people go to a few hours on weekends. The
entire city would not allow guns. Only swords. (Bows would only be in times
of war, and since we're not in a war....) So what is the criminal going to
do? Attack someone with a knife? Usually criminals arent as bold, especially
if the person they are attacking is somewhat well trained and is also carrying
a sword.

<<Banning "modern weapons" from possession by the Citizenry only results
in a safe working environment for the criminal element. When Nova Roma
becomes a city in fact as well as intention, there will be a criminal
element, and an element who will wish to become an Autocracy. Arms in
the possession of the Cives are the "teeth of Liberty.">>


Subject:	OT: Arms versus Unarmed
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:34:45 -0600

Young friend,

We live in a broad world where all borders are as sieves. Criminals who bring
100's of tons of "illegal" drugs into the U.S. would have no trouble importing a
few hundred pounds of firearms and ammunition. Firearms, like
nuclear-biological-chemical weapons, are "genies" that will never get back in the
bottle. Better they be in service to law-abiding Citizens for defense of self,
family, property and community.

The Supreme Court of the U.S. has ruled 17 times since 1884 that the police have
No Duty To Protect The Individual Citizen. Banning defensive arms is job safety
for criminals.

I have been a 2nd Amendment activist for longer than I have been a 1st Amendment
activist.

-- Steven P. Robinson, known in New Rome as Venator

Tem---------------- wrote:

> From: Tem----------------
>
> Actually, my thinking is it will deter criminals. See, this actually
> corresponds to another post that I've only told to one person. My view for
> the NR military is, instead of an actual military, a self-defense course and
> physical fitness course, which people go to a few hours on weekends. The
> entire city would not allow guns. Only swords. (Bows would only be in times
> of war, and since we're not in a war....) So what is the criminal going to
> do? Attack someone with a knife? Usually criminals arent as bold, especially
> if the person they are attacking is somewhat well trained and is also carrying
> a sword.
>
> <<Banning "modern weapons" from possession by the Citizenry only results
> in a safe working environment for the criminal element. When Nova Roma
> becomes a city in fact as well as intention, there will be a criminal
> element, and an element who will wish to become an Autocracy. Arms in
> the possession of the Cives are the "teeth of Liberty.">>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> We are proud as punch of our new web site!
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services


Subject:	Re: OT: Arms versus Unarmed
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:50:27 EST

<<We live in a broad world where all borders are as sieves. Criminals who
bring
100's of tons of "illegal" drugs into the U.S. would have no trouble importing
a
few hundred pounds of firearms and ammunition. Firearms, like
nuclear-biological-chemical weapons, are "genies" that will never get back in
the
bottle. Better they be in service to law-abiding Citizens for defense of
self,
family, property and community.>>

I seriously doubt it would cause much of a problem though. How many criminals
would you have? Why would they pick NR? Sure they could scale the walls at
night or drop a bomb, but thats a threat anywhere. Not having guns isnt going
to change "nuclear-biological-chemical weapons". And guns are a danger even
if the citizens have guns if some psycho with an M16 goes ape-shit in the
Forum. Fine, carry a gun if you want, but I think sword fighting should be
commonly taught as well as hand-to-hand combat.


Subject:	Re: Political scapegoat in Judea (was power and glory)
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:41:50 -0600 (CST)

On 03/09/99 14:14:57 you wrote:
>
>From: SFP55@--------
>
>Sorry this was so long, but I wanted to explain why the political climate had
>much to do with Jesus death. I spent two years studying historical Jesus. I
>wanted to share my knowledge of what I found.

Oh good. Finally, someone who may be able to answer this question.
I understand that Jesus was the end result of his mother, a temple tapestry worker, being raped by a Roman soldier and quickly married off to make
the child legitimate and spare the family any repercussions. I've forgotten the source of this. Have you come across that in any research?

- Flavia Claudia


Subject:	Re: OT: Arms versus Unarmed
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 22:44:36 -0600

Ave;

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Our society has emphasized the
sanctity of human life for so long, that a ideal of the sword for personal
protection shall forever remain an ideal. Sword, or knife, work is too intimate
for the vast majority of humankind. A firearm is impersonal enough that most folk
could take the decision to use one. In using cold steel, you are close enought to
your opponenet to smell their sweat, and fear, and blood, and bowel... In
military service I was constrained to take the decision to get up close and
personal. I didn't, and don't, like having been forced to do so. But, I would
make the same decision under similar circumstances.

I respect your apparent age and idealism, and Pray to the Holy Ones you are never
forced by circumstance to change.

My Blessings to Thee -- Venator

Tem---------------- wrote:

> From: Tem----------------
>
> <<We live in a broad world where all borders are as sieves. Criminals who
> bring
> 100's of tons of "illegal" drugs into the U.S. would have no trouble importing
> a
> few hundred pounds of firearms and ammunition. Firearms, like
> nuclear-biological-chemical weapons, are "genies" that will never get back in
> the
> bottle. Better they be in service to law-abiding Citizens for defense of
> self,
> family, property and community.>>
>
> I seriously doubt it would cause much of a problem though. How many criminals
> would you have? Why would they pick NR? Sure they could scale the walls at
> night or drop a bomb, but thats a threat anywhere. Not having guns isnt going
> to change "nuclear-biological-chemical weapons". And guns are a danger even
> if the citizens have guns if some psycho with an M16 goes ape-shit in the
> Forum. Fine, carry a gun if you want, but I think sword fighting should be
> commonly taught as well as hand-to-hand combat.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Have you visited our new web site?
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> Onelist: Helping to create Internet communities


Subject:	Re: OT: Arms versus Unarmed
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 23:51:42 EST

<A firearm is impersonal enough that most folk could take the decision to use
one.>

Thats exactly the point. It shouldnt be a simple matter of pointing and
shooting to kill. First of all it takes no courage to kill with a sword, and
second it takes no skill.


Subject:	Contact
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 23:56:19 EST

I think we should all have AOL Instant Messenger or at least ICQ. www.aol.com
to download AIM 2.0. That way we can talk in realtime.


Subject:	Re: OT: Arms versus Unarmed
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 23:04:04 -0600

Salus et Fortuna!

Tem---------------- wrote:

> Thats exactly the point. It shouldn't be a simple matter of pointing and
> shooting to kill.

> First of all it takes no courage to kill with a sword,

??????

> and
> second it takes no skill.

??????

-- Venator


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	Ira Adams iadams@--------
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 23:18:07 -0600

>From: Tem----------------
>
><<I'm sorry, Frigus, but it might be well if you would learn to screen
>these ideas for basic rationality before you publish them. ;-)>>
>
>So you're saying asking people to act decent isnt rational?

No hard feelings, but I give up. I won't intrude into your
stream-of-consciousness messages any more. I'll leave it to younger,
kinder, more tolerant and patient people like Venator to respond to you.
Bona Fortuna, Frigus.

L. Sergius Aust.


Subject:	Re: OT: Arms versus Unarmed
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 09 Mar 1999 23:18:11 -0600

Ave;

I agree. I shal entertain private e-mail on this topic, but shall respond no
more in open forum.

-- Venator

LSergAust@-------- wrote:

> From: LSergAust@--------
> There's another problem implied here, Frigus (are you certain that's how
> you wish to be addressed??). What makes you think (as you to) that
> killing people with swords is in any way kinder or nicer or neater or
> more acceptable than doing it with a firearm? As I've explained to my
> teenaged son (who, coincidently, talks a lot like you), training and
> practicing with deadly weapons implies a willingness to use them -- to
> kill. Killing isn't any nicer with old weapons than with new, I promise
> you.
>
> By the way, guns are not a danger "if some psycho with an M16 goes
> ape-shit in the Forum" if some citizen has one with which to stop your
> "psycho."
>
> But enough of this stuff -- can we get off the subject of what method
> Nova Romans should use to kill people? Please?
>
> Thanks,
>
> L. Sergius Aust.
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)