Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	Zemetrius@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:43:46 EST

In a message dated 3/10/99 7:54:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:

<<
: I hope not. If we were a macronation with territory to defend, I might
see
: some sense in this sort of prerequisite. But, given the nature of Nova
: Roma, such a prerequisite would be nothing short of absurd.
: >> >>
it has been said that if it came down to it the SCA could put into the field a
force of arms 2nd only to the US military, if NR could field (if the need
arose) several fully trained legions should the need arise we would be able to
defend ourselves and what we have worked to build...should it ever get into
the construction phase. if we commit ourselves to create NR as realistic as
possible should we do less when a legion is started.....anything less than a
training program to build a fully trained legion would be a tragic waste of
possibilities. consider that a fully trained legion would be the equal of any
number of men at arms in an sca battle group. would it be acceptable to always
say we are less than equal to what the SCA could field in battle.....or should
we be the equal of all. sorry if i rambled on about this.....one last thing if
i may, the SCA is divided in kingdoms each with a ruling body, NR has one
advantage over the SCA, a legion is loyal to the empire, there is only one
leader, i would have more faith in the training of a legion and its commander
than any force of arms the SCA could field.....if this is confusing please
email me and i will try to explain...if possible.
if there are some who see no reason for a legion that is their choice, but if
we are to recreate the roman empire in all or most of its glory, you cannot
say "Roman empire" without visions of legions marching into battle. again my
apologies for going on and on.
Prefect Probatii Zemetrius


Subject:	Re: re New Lists
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:18:57 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/10/99 8:14:00 PM P--------ic St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------;
writes:

<>
Well I have to agree with later but not the former. Look at Alisa.
QM


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:28:37 -0600 (CST)

Ok guys and ladies---

First off I've been having some trouble staying online for
some reason in the last week so please don't get upset if I don't
respond to an e-mail on this list right away just in case.

Well, I keep on hearing references to the idea of a future with a
Nova Roma city and such -- 108 acres and there seems to be various ideas
on what that should include when the time comes which may well be 50
years or more from now for all we really know or perhaps as little as 10
or 20 depending on what's being planned. Not to offend anyone, but my
envisionment is for that eventuality to be a spiritual center of the
Religio Romana and a Capital for our Senate and perhaps a really cool
library with archives on all kinds of subject matters and possibly even
a small museum of ancient history or such.

Not to offend anyone: I think having reenactors is great, along
with a multitude of other hobbies and pursuits that people- well our
citizens have. However, I see a real harm in turning such a place into a
Disneyland envirement or having a real-life/time fantasy about going
back in time so to speak. This isn't /shouldn't be Fantasy Island
either. The Religio Romana would be harmed by this I believe--- it
should be depicted I think as a modern religion that the general public
would be able to relate to and to slowly gather the enthusiasm of more
and more people as the years roll by. Ancient Rome utilized technology
and advanced itself the same way every other culture advances itself---
it was the base of Modern Western Civilization and its real center is in
its ideals, adaptability, universalism, and a host of other words that
can be applied.

Anyway, more to the point--- I think such a place-- a pagan
version of the Vatican for lack of a better word (a place where politics
and religion are inseperable in reality) can be utilized to coordinate
reenactment activities, or some other hobby or event but to have a 24/7
theme park approach is not what I would like to work toward at all. Note
that I have nothing against some really cool looking architecture and
interior design as funding allows over time.

A brief note on armaments--- I do believe that the only armaments
we need would be a good security staff with possibly side-arms
especially considering some of the religious violence that has taken
place recently--- toward Christian congregations among others. I
believe that such a religious headquarters on our part has certain risks
from certain fundamentalists, vandals, attention seekers, etc. etc. We
would need a fairly good security system in place with competant people
in charge.

I have absolutely nothing against reenactment or people that
happen to be in the SCA or like just history or any other interest and
there is a place for it in the context of Nova Roma, but not to mix a
serious attempt of a modern religious revival into something it
shouldn't be. I hope I didn't offend anyone and this is just my opinion.
I want to see all of us happy in the broader context yet I have some
reservations about the future of Nova Roma and the Religio in particular
when I see some posts. Any comments welcome.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	NR and Legions
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:37:36 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Prefect Probatii Zemmetrius;

Your message was loud and clear, my friend, and normally as an admirer
of the Legions of Rome I would agree, however, our NR Constitution says
that we will not take land or property by force. That is a present
commitment of Nova Roma, and it is a good one given the wish to remain
friends with those in whose country we reside. If we advocated anyting
else we would probably be ranked with ohers who have sought to
substitute their ideas for the government's ideas, and that is not our
purpose. Our main purpose is not war, or legions, or naval blockade,
our purpose is the Roman Religio and Culture. People like myself are
welcome here as students and serious historians, but make no mistake
that the emphasis here is the Religio Romana. I do not join in that
religion but I respect it deeply, and resent any attempt to change it
simply beause some very good friends do not wish it changed. Several
people have come here to try, and although they put a lot of effort into
it were not in the least successful.

If you are interested in the Roman military, may I suggest that you
contact one of the affiliated re-enactment legions that are recognied by
Nova Roma. They are authentic, they are hardworking, and they are as
close to the real thing as you can get nowadays. It costs money and a
little blood (not much) sweat and or tears (in equal amounts) to "get it
right." When you have succeeded in the XXth or the XXIVth Legion you
may say that you have arrived. I do ask, however, that you leave
soldering to the soldiers, and leave the culture and religon of Rome in
peace to those who have founded such.

In closing, I must inform you that in the present NR population there
are about four people who might be mildly interested in doing more than
studying about the Legions. That is approximately 2% percent of the
present NR population. An Imperial Legion was approximately 5,000 men,
so.when we get to a population of somewhere around 250,000 we should be
ready to look into forming a legion of troops for internal security.
Until such time as that increase in population occurs there is much to
do here in Nova Roma in down to earth. dig in with your elbows,and sweat
a little work that must be done, not with spear and sword, but with
ballot and pen. Care to have a part in all that?

Marcus Minucius Audens

(PS--I forgot to mention the 6th Legio in Texas, Great little Legio,
but one thing you should remember about Legio 6 is that it's Commander
is just a tad strict. As a matter of fact everybody calls me the
"creampuff" in relation to that particular Tribune. Not to
misunderstand, as I think most highly of that officer, it's just that in
that officer's mind toughness is next to godliness if you get my drift!!

Your Humble Servent;
MMA

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: NR and Legions
From:	Zemetrius@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:52:25 EST

In a message dated 3/10/99 11:37:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------es:

<< our NR Constitution says
that we will not take land or property by force. >>

it was never my suggestion that land be taken by force or otherwise, i was
under the impression(mine alone) that NR was recreating the age of the Roman
empire, there was more to imperial rome than just the Religio, but i will go
no farther an accept your council. hmmm join the legion.....interesting
idea.....that does have some appeal, i will look into it. thank you for that
suggestion.
Prefect Probatii Zemetrius


Subject:	Nova Roma Capitol Grounds
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 03:03:39 -0500 (EST)

I think that Gaius Drusus Domitianus has exactly the right idea, and I
think that I have seen a really good pattern for such a place.

In Philadelphia there is a large Jewish Culture Center, and in it is a
small but very tasteful museum, a very nice gift shop, small but nicely
done chapel and a variety of offices, a library and reading rooms and a
large conference room. The basement is a full concrete basement which
has a conrolled atmosphere, and is used for a significant amount of
research material and a variety of items for rotation through the
museum. It is all housed in a Brick two story building with a heavy
security system and several guards.

I went in there to get a friend of mine a present for a Jewish Holiday
and the people there bent over backward to help me choose something very
nice and meaningfull to my friend. The Museum docents were very helpful
and I stayed so long that I missed my bus, and had another hour to
explore. One of the rooms was a small presentation room with a complete
but very tastefull arrangemet for all differnt types of medium
presentations.

As Gaius was describing what he thought would be an ideal setting this
place popped into my mind. Now there were no marble forums, and no
great city walls or pink stone highways, but it was a warm, functional
and dignified presentation of the Jewish Faith and Culture. We could do
much worse in NR than to make copy, borrow a similar floorplan and
provide it to all NR citizens with the idea that this is probably a more
immediate and practial goal, and one which can be with some hard work
become at some time in the future a reality of which we can be very
proud.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:28:44 EST

I agree with Zemee on everything he stated.

<<it has been said that if it came down to it the SCA could put into the field
a
force of arms 2nd only to the US military, if NR could field (if the need
arose) several fully trained legions should the need arise we would be able to
defend ourselves and what we have worked to build...should it ever get into
the construction phase. if we commit ourselves to create NR as realistic as
possible should we do less when a legion is started.....anything less than a
training program to build a fully trained legion would be a tragic waste of
possibilities. consider that a fully trained legion would be the equal of any
number of men at arms in an sca battle group. would it be acceptable to always
say we are less than equal to what the SCA could field in battle.....or should
we be the equal of all. sorry if i rambled on about this.....one last thing if
i may, the SCA is divided in kingdoms each with a ruling body, NR has one
advantage over the SCA, a legion is loyal to the empire, there is only one
leader, i would have more faith in the training of a legion and its commander
than any force of arms the SCA could field.....if this is confusing please
email me and i will try to explain...if possible.
if there are some who see no reason for a legion that is their choice, but if
we are to recreate the roman empire in all or most of its glory, you cannot
say "Roman empire" without visions of legions marching into battle. again my
apologies for going on and on.
Prefect Probatii Zemetrius>>


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:32:37 EST

I'm not a big supporter of roman paganism, but I can see where you're coming
from. I guess I still have that teeeny little bit of christianity in me
(causing a slight "fear"...maybe fear isnt the right word...worry maybe..about
worshipping pagan gods).

<< First off I've been having some trouble staying online for
some reason in the last week so please don't get upset if I don't
respond to an e-mail on this list right away just in case.

Well, I keep on hearing references to the idea of a future with a
Nova Roma city and such -- 108 acres and there seems to be various ideas
on what that should include when the time comes which may well be 50
years or more from now for all we really know or perhaps as little as 10
or 20 depending on what's being planned. Not to offend anyone, but my
envisionment is for that eventuality to be a spiritual center of the
Religio Romana and a Capital for our Senate and perhaps a really cool
library with archives on all kinds of subject matters and possibly even
a small museum of ancient history or such.

Not to offend anyone: I think having reenactors is great, along
with a multitude of other hobbies and pursuits that people- well our
citizens have. However, I see a real harm in turning such a place into a
Disneyland envirement or having a real-life/time fantasy about going
back in time so to speak. This isn't /shouldn't be Fantasy Island
either. The Religio Romana would be harmed by this I believe--- it
should be depicted I think as a modern religion that the general public
would be able to relate to and to slowly gather the enthusiasm of more
and more people as the years roll by. Ancient Rome utilized technology
and advanced itself the same way every other culture advances itself---
it was the base of Modern Western Civilization and its real center is in
its ideals, adaptability, universalism, and a host of other words that
can be applied.

Anyway, more to the point--- I think such a place-- a pagan
version of the Vatican for lack of a better word (a place where politics
and religion are inseperable in reality) can be utilized to coordinate
reenactment activities, or some other hobby or event but to have a 24/7
theme park approach is not what I would like to work toward at all. Note
that I have nothing against some really cool looking architecture and
interior design as funding allows over time.

A brief note on armaments--- I do believe that the only armaments
we need would be a good security staff with possibly side-arms
especially considering some of the religious violence that has taken
place recently--- toward Christian congregations among others. I
believe that such a religious headquarters on our part has certain risks
from certain fundamentalists, vandals, attention seekers, etc. etc. We
would need a fairly good security system in place with competant people
in charge.

I have absolutely nothing against reenactment or people that
happen to be in the SCA or like just history or any other interest and
there is a place for it in the context of Nova Roma, but not to mix a
serious attempt of a modern religious revival into something it
shouldn't be. I hope I didn't offend anyone and this is just my opinion.
I want to see all of us happy in the broader context yet I have some
reservations about the future of Nova Roma and the Religio in particular
when I see some posts. Any comments welcome.>>


Subject:	Re: NR and Legions
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:38:37 EST

Maybe we need to do a little re-working on legions. Maybe 10 centuries in
each, each century 100 soldiers. 1,000 people per legion. I can see getting
10 legions up and running if we really put some effort into it. I mean, we're
going to put alot of effort into the religion, why not an equal amount into
re-creation of the military?
Note: I think if we really did start some legions people would join more
quickly.

As for the ballot and pen... I'm workin on that part :P

<<In closing, I must inform you that in the present NR population there
are about four people who might be mildly interested in doing more than
studying about the Legions. That is approximately 2% percent of the
present NR population. An Imperial Legion was approximately 5,000 men,
so.when we get to a population of somewhere around 250,000 we should be
ready to look into forming a legion of troops for internal security.
Until such time as that increase in population occurs there is much to
do here in Nova Roma in down to earth. dig in with your elbows,and sweat
a little work that must be done, not with spear and sword, but with
ballot and pen. Care to have a part in all that?>>


Subject:	Re: NR and Legions
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:42:00 EST

<<it was never my suggestion that land be taken by force or otherwise, i was
under the impression(mine alone) that NR was recreating the age of the Roman
empire, there was more to imperial rome than just the Religio, but i will go
no farther an accept your council. hmmm join the legion.....interesting
idea.....that does have some appeal, i will look into it. thank you for that
suggestion.>>

As for re-creating Rome, you're right there was more than the religion. And
the religion probably isnt going to get many people. You're looking for A)
Historians and B) Pagans interested in joining a re-creation of Rome.
Probably not going to get that large of a population. If the religion and
studying about Rome are the only things we do, to me that seems a bit boring
(no offense meant here). But I have faith in the senate and other leaders
that interesting things (ie. Gladitorial Games) are coming about.


Subject:	Re: Nova Roma Capitol Grounds
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:48:49 EST

As a gathering grounds for NR I think this type of thing would work but I
would hope for something larger in the far future.

<>


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:52:56 -0600

Ave Zemetrius et Salvete Omnes;

Once again, I should like to emphasize to you and other newly arrived
denizens
that Nova Roma reeks a Re-Awakening of the best of Republican Era Roma
Antiqua,
not the Empire Period. Please, give the Website a very thorough
reading. I
downloaded the entire contents to my printer so I could spend time
reading,
highlighting, looking up words of which I was unsure... After some
correspondance
with F. Ve. Garmanicus, a Co-Founder, I chose to apply for Citizenship.

The Ideals of Nova Roma do include an emphasis on the State Religion
being
respected in all of our Public Dealings, while having Freedom of
Conscience in our
Private Religious Practices. I am not an adherent of the Religio.
Unlike my
Comespiritae Audens and Marius Fimbria, who are Thoughtful and Faithful
Christiansor my Amicus Sulla who is Jewish, I am a Friend to the Holy
Aesir and
Vanir of Germania and Scandinavia, who I see as cousins german to the
Mighty Ones
of Olympus.

The Re-Awakening of the Religions of our pre-Christian Ancestors is
growing; here,
in Europe, Australasia and in Latin America. This Retro-Heathenry is
based upon
the available archaeological and documentery evidence which we possess
at this
time. It is informed by late 20th Century thinking, we can not escape
being
creatures of our times nor be unaffected by our upbringings. We can,
though, make
behavioral choices as thinking beings.

There have been less thoughful and dogmatic Christians who have
attempted to
batter that which Cassius Iulianus and Flavius Vedius Germanicus gave
voice and
heart and mind. The Citizens of Rome; Heathen and Christian started (in
the main)
to attempt persuasion first, but did become aggressive in the defense of
the New
City.

I as a non-Roman Citizen have been accepted because I have approached
this People
with the same Caution, Courtesy and Curiosity which has garnered my
Friendship or
Friendly Acquaintence in a wide variety of Re-Awakening Communities.

I participate as an elected Quaestor for the People and Senate of Nova
Roma. I
have the honor of being founding Dominus of the Sodalis pro Coquus et
Coqueror (a
socirty for brewers and cooks). I am a member of the military and
engineering
Sodalis founded by the Legate and Tribune Marcus Minucius Audens.

Someday, we shall have a physical place of our own. It may just be a
couple acres
of memorial gardens, it may be like the wonderful Jewish Cultural center
which
Audens described, it may be an 108 acre Forum with Marble and Bronze and
cobblestones...

We're nowheres near that. We can but begin to dig the footings and
perhaps, lay a
cornerstone. If we do get much further than that, you'll find me, at
the counter
of my Taverna, just around the corner and down the street a little ways.

In Amicus et Fidelis -- Roma Res Publica Resurgans! -- Venator

Post Scriptum: The myths of an SCA army have been circulating at least
a quarter
century now. As with any large group, the U.S. government did take a
look at us,
and dismissed any thoughts we would ever be organized enough to be
anything other
than an historical re-creation group. Having been an officer for most
of a decade
in the SCA, I can tell you that the personality clashes and ego-boosting
which
goes on with some people precludes the organization to which you
allude. Besides,
the SCA has fewer than 25,000 subscribing members and perhaps another
100,000
"participants." Perhaps 1 in 5 or 6 actually fight, and of those,
perhaps 10% are
really serious about training. In Calontir (SCA "Kingdom" : Nebraska,
Iowa,
Kansas, Missouri and NW Arkansas) we would belucky if we got 20 or 30
fighters to
show up for a Kingdom level war practice. One we had the unusually
large number
of 50 at one practice, but just over half made it to Pennsic War to
participate.
-- V.

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=019056014056175209036168000248147208071048" >Zemetrius@--------</--------;
>
> it has been said that if it came down to it the SCA could put into the field a
> force of arms 2nd only to the US military, if NR could field (if the need
> arose) several fully trained legions should the need arise we would be able to
> defend ourselves and what we have worked to build...should it ever get into
> the construction phase. if we commit ourselves to create NR as realistic as
> possible should we do less when a legion is started.....anything less than a
> training program to build a fully trained legion would be a tragic waste of
> possibilities. consider that a fully trained legion would be the equal of any
> number of men at arms in an sca battle group. would it be acceptable to always
> say we are less than equal to what the SCA could field in battle.....or should
> we be the equal of all. sorry if i rambled on about this.....one last thing if
> i may, the SCA is divided in kingdoms each with a ruling body, NR has one
> advantage over the SCA, a legion is loyal to the empire, there is only one
> leader, i would have more faith in the training of a legion and its commander
> than any force of arms the SCA could field.....if this is confusing please
> email me and i will try to explain...if possible.
> if there are some who see no reason for a legion that is their choice, but if
> we are to recreate the roman empire in all or most of its glory, you cannot
> say "Roman empire" without visions of legions marching into battle. again my
> apologies for going on and on.
> Prefect Probatii Zemetrius


Subject:	Re: List traffic
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:06:38 EST

In a message dated 3/10/99 5:23:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a> writes:

<< While I'm on the subject, could our more voluble members please try to
confine themselves to one or two posts a day? We need to keep the volume
of this list low enough that everyone feels free to participate, rather
than being overburdened to the point of deleting conversations to which
they might have contributed useful information. >>

Join the Back Alley List...no restrictions on the number of posts...no
restrictions on language...no restrictions on expressing your most intimate
thoughts and feelings.

Keep the Main List clean and short. Chat all you want in the Back Alley! : )

--Dexippus


Subject:	Land donation??
From:	MaNPaRoman@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:14:07 EST

Salvete,

Ummmm, I don't know how serious anyone is about this, but I have a couple of
acres of land in Mississippi that my family is looking to get rid of. The
entire plot is larger that a couple acres, but still less than 10, but no one
in my family really wants to live in Mississippi (something about dining by
cross light).

If there is an interest in maybe a small community (Roma, Mississippi?????)...
maybe my family could be pursuaded to finally cough up this land to a worthy
cause.

Crys


Subject:	Re: Priesthoods
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:14:53 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/10/99 6:43:40 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------;
writes:

<< by the way, are we instating several different religeons? what I mean by
that
is, can we allow otehr religeions on Nova ROma property. we don't have to
patronise them, but can we justly kick them out just for religeous
differences? >>

Please read the homepage under Religio Romana. These questions are all
answered there.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Capers, pine nuts and Caesar
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:18:10 EST

In a message dated 3/10/99 8:50:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015232190036129" >amgunn@--------</a> write--------r>
<< I think it was in the Time-Life series "Recipes of the World," the Italy
volume, hardback book on the background for the spiral bound recipe book.
Unfortunately it is long out of print, and I must make use of my
mother-in-law's copy during my once a year visit back to Massachusetts.
Also,
Jeff Smith (aka the Frugal Gourmet, I know - great historical source)
mentions
in his book on Greek, Roman and Chinese cooking having seen a fresco in an
Etruscan tomb which was described as showing the making of noodles.
>>

Hmmmm....ok....Thanks! : )

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: re New Lists
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:25:19 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/10/99 11:16:44 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
writes:

<< <<Who is going to moderate all these lists?>>
>>

There is already a Religio list. This is double work and unproductive


Subject:	Re: re New Lists
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:30:01 EST

<<There is already a Religio list. This is double work and unproductive>>

Didnt realize there already was one. Oops.


Subject:	Re: NR and Legions
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:34:40 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/11/99 2:52:59 AM E--------rn St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=019056014056175209036168000248147208071048" >Zemetrius@--------</--------;
writes:

<< it was never my suggestion that land be taken by force or otherwise, i was
under the impression(mine alone) that NR was recreating the age of the Roman
empire, >>

We're recreating the age of the Roman Republic...not the Empire.

--Dexippus

<Does anyone read the homepage?>


Subject:	Re: Nova Roma Capitol Grounds
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:35:50 EST

In a message dated 3/11/99 3:03:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------es:

<>

And how much did that cost? A museaum? Pretty expensive stuff, eh?

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:39:49 EST

In a message dated 3/11/99 8:54:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015232190036129" >amgunn@--------</a> write--------r>
<< The myths of an SCA army have been circulating at least
a quarter
century now. As with any large group, the U.S. government did take a
look at us,
and dismissed any thoughts we would ever be organized enough to be
anything other
than an historical re-creation group. >>

All they had to do was spend some time at Pennsic...could anyone ever possibly
think 2,000 drunken men running around naked could possibly organize
themselves well enough to overthrow the U.S. governement?

--Dexippus


Subject:	Misc
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:43:45 EST

We could probably act out ancient rome 100% but the problem is THERE IS NO
LAND ANYMORE. Its all bought up.


Subject:	Re: re New Lists
From:	"Jason Kopeny" jkopeny@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:21:52 +0100

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
>
>In a message dated 3/10/99 8:14:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------;
>writes:
>
><bad at logistics and that he was often careless. Thank you. >>
>Well I have to agree with later but not the former. Look at Alisa.
>QM
>

I think that he was a good general, and his record bears that out. In my
mind I compare him and Rommel. Both fought many battles under very
unadvantageous conditions, with supply lines that were so long to make the
dangers they were open to ridiculous, but both ended up winning in the end
(mostly). An early form of Blitzkrieg maybe... (Caesar just did not have a
mad man like Hitler trying to push him in the direction of unwinnable
battles!)

Jason


Subject:	Re: Land donation??
From:	"Jason Kopeny" jkopeny@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:41:30 +0100

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------;
>
>Salvete,
>
>Ummmm, I don't know how serious anyone is about this, but I have a couple
of
>acres of land in Mississippi that my family is looking to get rid of. The
>entire plot is larger that a couple acres, but still less than 10, but no
one
>in my family really wants to live in Mississippi (something about dining by
>cross light).
>
>If there is an interest in maybe a small community (Roma,
Mississippi?????)...
>maybe my family could be pursuaded to finally cough up this land to a
worthy
>cause.
>
>Crys

Well, at least it is hot in the summer down there, not too far from
water, and New Orleans is a hell of a lot closer than it is to me here is
Illinois, so... Hey, I like the idea, I could almost build an open Roman
style vill ain those temperatures (thinking).

Jason
P.S. Don't get me wrong, Chicago is hotter than Hades in the summer, I just
LOVE that humidity!


Subject:	Jewish Gift
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:55:01 -0500 (EST)

I think I mentioned the Gift Store. Not particularly expensive, but
very nice. Mt friend had never received his personalized wine cup
apparently which is traditionally provided at his Bar Mitzva. There
were pewter, siver and gold cup available in various sizes and designs,
the item being a popular one. I bought a small silver cup (my friend is
not much of a wine drinker) very nicely worked with grape bunches and a
view of vineyards in the distance. The handle and rim of the cup was a
grapevine. While the cost was not cheap, it was quite reasonable and I
thought it a good buy.

If I remember correctly the walls of the small musum were hung with
paintings of excellent quality that were done by jewish painters and
reflected the Jewish Culture and various aspects of Jewish life and
history. I remember that it was quite impressive.

Marcus Audens.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Nova Roman legions was Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:53:10 -0500

Salvete Zemetri et alii

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=019056014056175209036168000248147208071048" >Zemetrius@--------</--------;
>

Your message touches on a lot of fundamental issues as to what Nova Roma is
and what it is not, what it aims to be versus what it does not aim to be et
cetera. I am not a magistrate or senator, and so my answers are not in any
way authoritative. I have been participating in NR's ongoing debates for a
few months, though, and am in the process of translating the Constitution,
so I have a pretty good handle on the basics of the micronation. I
therefore feel that I can answer your message, and welcome anyone else to
jump in.

> : >> >>
>it has been said that if it came down to it the SCA could put into the
field a
>force of arms 2nd only to the US military

I admit that I don't know much at all about the SCA, but, this statement
kind of shocks me. How many artillery pieces does the SCA have? what sort
of air force? Does the SCA have a submarine fleet, tanks? Unless it has
each and every one of those in abundance, it certainly cannot field any sort
of force that could engage even a third-rate modern macronation's forces.
But, actually, this whole discussion is seriously off-topic, isn't it?

if NR could field (if the need
>arose) several fully trained legions should the need arise we would be able
to
>defend ourselves and what we have worked to build...should it ever get into
>the construction phase.

I think that you're missing a couple of crucial points here:

1. Legions, fully trained or not, cannot do anything in our modern context
in terms of warfare, even limited defensive warfare.

2. Nova Roma has declared itself to be totally against the use of force to
secure land. Instead, we hope to buy, or even better, receive a donation
of, enough land to have a spiritual center, comparable to Vatican City.
Now, how many legions does Vatican City have?

if we commit ourselves to create NR as realistic as
>possible should we do less when a legion is started.....anything less than
a
>training program to build a fully trained legion would be a tragic waste of
>possibilities.

One of our aims is to help sponsor legionary re-enactors. Two people come
to mind who could speak to this aim of Nova Roma: Consul Lucius Equitius
Cincinnatus and Quaestor Marcus Minucius Audens. I am pretty sure that I
have seen pictures of the consul in legionary "uniform", and am also pretty
sure that Audens is an active re-enactor.

consider that a fully trained legion would be the equal of any
>number of men at arms in an sca battle group. would it be acceptable to
always
>say we are less than equal to what the SCA could field in battle.....or
should
>we be the equal of all.

As far as I know, Nova Roma is not in any sort of competition with the SCA.
Nova Roma is seeking to re-build Roman society and honor the Roman Gods,
primarily by studying and practicing the Religio Romana and Roman virtues.
The SCA is an organization with a totally different agenda, if I'm not
mistaken.

sorry if i rambled on about this.....one last thing if
>i may, the SCA is divided in kingdoms each with a ruling body, NR has one
>advantage over the SCA, a legion is loyal to the empire, there is only one
>leader, i would have more faith in the training of a legion and its
commander
>than any force of arms the SCA could field.....if this is confusing please
>email me and i will try to explain...if possible.

Let me try to explain: Nova Roma is not an empire. The minute some modern
day Octavian-wanna-be starts declaring himself to be such and actually gets
atop NR, the serious people here will disappear. Maybe some fun games will
follow, but it won't be Nova Roma.

>if there are some who see no reason for a legion that is their choice, but
if
>we are to recreate the roman empire in all or most of its glory, you cannot
>say "Roman empire" without visions of legions marching into battle. again
my
>apologies for going on and on.

No apology necessary. The Roman empire, glory, legions and all, is
irrevocably gone. Nova Roma is a different thing altogether.

>Prefect Probatii Zemetrius
>
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Roman Weddings
From:
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:16:45 EST

Salvete,

Did the Romans wear wedding rings? I have a friend who believes they did and
wore it on the hand that Jewish Law dictated (right index -- she's
conservative Jewish and, at one time anyway, wore her ring there).

Also, there seems that Roman Law mirrored Jewish law in a couple of respects.
Another I can think of is the covering of the hair in public (wearing a stolla
or, today perhaps, a beret to keep the hair covered. I also did this when I
was involved in the Mennonite church, as the hair is often considered a
sexual, what? thingie???? and should be kept from the eyes of strangers,
especially men).

Can anyone confirm or deny this information for me (not the Jewish Law part, I
have my friend for that). Thanks.

Valete,

Crys (may start wearing my beret again, so I don't have to mess with my hair
<G>)


Subject:	Nova Roma
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:42:05 -0500 (EST)

Well said, Gaius Marius Merrullus!!! Yourself, Venator, Tribune Marius,
Dexippus and several other members of Nova Roma including myself have
tried to explain to these newcomers to the list who seem to be "quite
taken" with the Roman Legions but who do not seem to be able to read
what is said on the webpage about what we are doing here.

It has been recommended to them that they seek out one of our two
legions that Nova Roma recognizes and supports and join with them. I do
not believe that further discussion regarding Nova Roma goals is going
to do any good, until these people have read and understood the
Constitution, and the contents of the NR Web Page. It is already quite
clear that they are completely subverting the word Culture, to their
erroneous ideas; that without Legions there is nothing to Nova Roma I
find this most objectionable and out of place here.

I, for one, tire of wasting internet space, and my time in constantly
attempting to blunt their jabs at NR. When their posts turn to asking
instead of telling, working together rather than creating their own idea
of the NR world, and arguing extensively for their point of view in the
face of our written and accessable documentation, I will then resume my
practice and duties of answering questions, whose answers are not
clearly stated on our website. This current exercise is very similar to
teaching a classroom of 15 year-olds whose anxiety to push their own
incomplete and pie-in-the-sky ideas, cannot wait long enough to read the
basic material provided from which to make serious, well thought out,
doable.and beneficial suggestions that meet the needs and goals of the
institution involved

As a side effect of this hail of messages, it may from time to time
result in messages sent to me being returned because the message bin of
WebTV has the finite limit of 150 (less if the messages are long
ones--much less if there are pictures). Our newcomers have been
appraised of this and have apparenly chosen to ignore it. I have
neither the liesure, nor the inclination to stand guard over my WebTV
while the bin fills up with augumenative, frivolous and essentially
poorly thought out mesages and suggestions. These people have all also
been offered constructive activities for the benefit of NR, which I
believe, at this point no-one has availed themselves of. I should be
most sorry to miss any correspondance returned by this state of affairs,
but I have little to do with the conrol of the Web Page.

Yes Gaius Marius Merrullus, I am involved in re-enactment. I portray
the following periods and characters:

--F & I--British Crown Engineer under contract to King George II;

--Rev War--Adjutant of the 42nd Regiment of Foot, (Royal Highland
Regiment--Black Watch) General Jon Murray's Company;

--Rev War--Captain-Lt (Black Watch) commanding Major's Company, 2nd
Battalion;

--Rev War--Crown Assistant Engineer, detached from service from the 42nd
Regiment;

--Civi War--British Royal Engineer, Military Observer to the Army of the
Potomac;

In addition I am putting together a kit for a milles immunes (gromaciti,
agrimmensores, and gubernator) for the Roman Army, and a group of
Federal Topographical Engineers for the Survey of River and Coastal
Areas in the Eastern U.S.-Civil War, and a Loyalist Corps of Colonial
troops loyal to King George III ..

In addition I am a member of the following organizations:

--Brigade of te American Revolution (BAR);
--Naval / Marine Living History Association (NMLHA /
1790-1900 / Board Member)
--Society Of Europe (CW / Board Member);
--Quoketaug Rangers (F & I-- Past
President--Current Board Member);
--Newport Artillery Company; Batt. "F"
(CW--Staff Engineer Re-enactment);
--Naval Landing Party; North East;(CW);
--General John Murraay's Coy (Black
Watch-Adjutant-RW);
--Nova Roma (Magistrate (Quaestor), Miltary Tribune
Commanding Sodalicum Militarium and Legatus
Civicus Regio Connecticus--RR);
--Crown Engineers; BAR (RW).

In addition to the above, I am a member of four Federal Army Command
Staffs (CW) as a Staff Topographical Engineer.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you most sincerely for your kind
attention.

Your Humble Servant;
Marcus Minucius Audens.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Nova Roma
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:49:12 EST

<<Well said, Gaius Marius Merrullus!!! Yourself, Venator, Tribune Marius,
Dexippus and several other members of Nova Roma including myself have
tried to explain to these newcomers to the list who seem to be "quite
taken" with the Roman Legions but who do not seem to be able to read
what is said on the webpage about what we are doing here.>>

I sincerely hope that which is posted on the website is not ALL that NR will
ever do.

<<It has been recommended to them that they seek out one of our two
legions that Nova Roma recognizes and supports and join with them. I do
not believe that further discussion regarding Nova Roma goals is going
to do any good, until these people have read and understood the
Constitution, and the contents of the NR Web Page. It is already quite
clear that they are completely subverting the word Culture, to their
erroneous ideas; that without Legions there is nothing to Nova Roma I
find this most objectionable and out of place here.>>

I don't think anyone has ever said without legions it is nothing. Its not
even legions that matter. Its just "something to do". Research, research,
and more research isn't going to attract a horde of newcomers.

<<I, for one, tire of wasting internet space, and my time in constantly
attempting to blunt their jabs at NR. When their posts turn to asking
instead of telling, working together rather than creating their own idea
of the NR world, and arguing extensively for their point of view in the
face of our written and accessable documentation, I will then resume my
practice and duties of answering questions, whose answers are not
clearly stated on our website. This current exercise is very similar to
teaching a classroom of 15 year-olds whose anxiety to push their own
incomplete and pie-in-the-sky ideas, cannot wait long enough to read the
basic material provided from which to make serious, well thought out,
doable.and beneficial suggestions that meet the needs and goals of the
institution involved>>

There are insulting comments, and *AGAIN* please stop insulting people. As
for not reading things, I think everyone has read the stuff but always
expected a little more from NR.

<<As a side effect of this hail of messages, it may from time to time
result in messages sent to me being returned because the message bin of
WebTV has the finite limit of 150 (less if the messages are long
ones--much less if there are pictures). Our newcomers have been
appraised of this and have apparenly chosen to ignore it. I have
neither the liesure, nor the inclination to stand guard over my WebTV
while the bin fills up with augumenative, frivolous and essentially
poorly thought out mesages and suggestions. These people have all also
been offered constructive activities for the benefit of NR, which I
believe, at this point no-one has availed themselves of. I should be
most sorry to miss any correspondance returned by this state of affairs,
but I have little to do with the conrol of the Web Page.>>

To be blunt, its not my problem that you have webTV. Look in the paper for
someone selling a used 486. $100 and you'll have an okay win95 PC that can
handle email and browsing the web.


Subject:	Micronation
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:54:56 EST

How does everyone here feel about a micronation within a micronation? Perhaps
NR could be split, just like ancient rome had the East and West. Those who
you call the "15 year old children who dont want to wait" can be on one while
the "old hags" are the other. Separate governments, but they would work
together. Any thoughts?


Subject:	Re: Nova Roma
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:07:56 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/11/99 12:50:26 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
writes:

<>

If you mean to say that you hope we will march legions across the North
American continent or Europe, then yes...all that is on the website is all we
want to accomplish.

This is not the Michigan Militia! We're not some Apocalyptic group that wants
to revive the Roman Empire and instill our order onto the world.

As I said once before...we must become Romans in our hearts and minds first.
This is the true battle. Then we can peacefully seek out land in the size
mentioned in our constitution (I believe it's 180 acres...the size of the
Vatican). That's all we want. Let's stop the foolish talk about marching
legions and building a city with armed defences.

I would really like to get back to the discussion of Religion as it seems to
have been overly downplayed as of late in NR.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Micronation
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:10:36 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/11/99 12:55:48 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
writes:

<< How does everyone here feel about a micronation within a micronation?
Perhaps
NR could be split, just like ancient rome had the East and West. Those who
you call the "15 year old children who dont want to wait" can be on one while
the "old hags" are the other. Separate governments, but they would work
together. Any thoughts? >>

Alright....that's it! Temale...you are going WAY TOO FAR NOW!

Offering ideas is one thing, but it's now becoming treasonous. We're not
going to have a micronation in a micronation. We're not going to split the
Republic. We are not modeling ourselves on the Empire.

I think I shall now echo Auden's call for you to cease. Please take some time
to cool yourself down and just observe for a while before you have to suffer
some unwanted consequences.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Caesar Quote
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:18:25 EST

A few days ago I posted something about caesar's quote "I would rather be the
first man in a barbarian camp than the second man in Rome". I've revised my
interpretation of it and now consider it to be Caesar's equivalent of "Better
to rule in hell than serve in heaven."


Subject:	Re: Nova Roma
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:20:04 EST

<<If you mean to say that you hope we will march legions across the North
American continent or Europe, then yes...all that is on the website is all we
want to accomplish.>>

Thats not what I meant. I just meant a little bit more activity.


Subject:	Re: History and Religion
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" n_moravius@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:10:49 PST

Salvete!
>
>Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:23:39 EST
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------;
>Subject: Re: Myth/Eagle
>
>i don't care about the roman religeon. I am a historian.

Surely to be a good historian you need to know how the people of a
historical period and society under study actually thought, and what
they believed, what their values were, etc. ? You don't have to believe
it, but you do have to take it into account. I reckon you don't
know what you're missing!

>
>NovaRoma_History for historical topics.>

- Am I missing something here? I thought nine-tenths of NovaRoman
interest WAS historical (more, if you don't count the personal abuse
that's been bouncing around lately).

>NovaRoma_Religion for discussion of the Religio Romana as well as other
>religions.

- this already exists as <a href="mailto:religio@--------" >religio@--------</a>.

>
>Subject: Re: Priesthoods
>
>by the way, are we instating several different religeons? what I mean
by that
>is, can we allow otehr religeions on Nova ROma property. we don't have
to
>patronise them, but can we justly kick them out just for religeous
>differences?

- as I see it, anyone who respects our religio and our gods deserves
reciprocal respect for his or her religion. This is where many of the
early urban Christians went wrong, of course. They didn't.

Valete in pace deorum,

N. Moravius Vado.
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Caesar Quote
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:28:18 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/11/99 1:18:53 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
writes:

<< I've revised my
interpretation of it and now consider it to be Caesar's equivalent of "Better
to rule in hell than serve in heaven."
>>

And this has to do with what?

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: NR and Legions
From:	Zemetrius@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:06:36 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/11/99 6:34:56 AM P--------ic St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
writes:

<<
We're recreating the age of the Roman Republic...not the Empire.
>>
this is finally starting to sink in :( alas


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	Zemetrius@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:16:23 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/11/99 6:40:03 AM P--------ic St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
writes:

<< All they had to do was spend some time at Pennsic...could anyone ever
possibly
think 2,000 drunken men running around naked could possibly organize
themselves well enough to overthrow the U.S. governement?
>>
no no and again no.....the sca has nothing to do with over throwing anyone let
alone a goverment, the common rumor(fact or fiction is unknown)is that should
society ever collaspe the sca and those who learn from contact with the sca
would be able to survive in a country with no modern society in operation. yes
the FBI did check out the sca, as they would check out any group that
practiced with weapons and used armor and was a group of any large size. and
it was determined by the FBI that the sca was no threat. i am willing to hold
out that the number of fighters is a tad larger than you suggest.....many
fighters i know and have known of those most were not paid members, but it it
did not mean they could not fight.


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:25:56 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/11/99 4:17:18 PM E--------rn St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=019056014056175209036168000248147208071048" >Zemetrius@--------</--------;
writes:

<< no no and again no.....the sca has nothing to do with over throwing anyone
let
alone a goverment, the common rumor(fact or fiction is unknown)is that should
society ever collaspe the sca and those who learn from contact with the sca
would be able to survive in a country with no modern society in operation.
>>

Yes...I agree with you. And Y2K might just prove the later part of your
statement! LOL

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: New Lists
From:	Masterofhistory masterofhistory@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:47:07 -0800 (PST)

Salvere iubeo Cives Novae Romae;

I have been monitoring the activity on list recently and have seen
just about everything Nova Roma stands for ridiculed, criticized or
worse, just plain ignored.
I'd like to add my words to those of my associates M. Minucius Audens
and C. Aelius Ericius in support and defense of Nova Roma.

I have gone out of my way to meet our newcomers in the Forum, those
posting here as Temale and ENFLAGN. It is my opinion that they are
intelligent but unperceptive, energetic but unfocused, and idealistic
but not realistic with regards to what Nova Roma is and is capable of
doing in the present. It is the exuberance of youth untempered by
experience I suppose.

It is a good thing, I think, to have opinions, to have energy and to
be in the possession of a vibrant intellect. These things, however
count for little if one fails to employ a measure of tact, discipline
and forethought. The posts by these newcomers display little if any
of these qualities which allow people to interact with one another in
non-violent ways. To goad men like C. Aelius Ericius, M. Minucius
Audens and myself, I can attest, takes a great deal of effort.
Perhaps your attempts at doing so are intentional, if so, then
congratulations. You have succeeded in getting a warning from a
Quaestor, a Propraetor and a Tribune of the People. If, on the other
hand, your posts have a genuine purpose you should have taken the time
to write them more clearly as to avoid misunderstandings and senseless
arguments that fill up everyone's mailbox and do no good for Nova
Roma.

My one piece of advice to you newcomers is to understand this; this is
not a clubhouse, not a role-playing group but a legitimate nation on
the World Wide Web. We are the Roman Republic reborn, the government,
the religion, the law, the Orders and the society. The cavalier
attitude you have displayed in your posts towards many of these
aspects is why people have reacted so negatively towards your ideas.
Your disregard for this micronation's laws and procedures has offended
the population and has jeopardized your future in Nova Roma. The same
people you have offended may have been the very same people willing to
consider your ideas had you not chosen the route you have taken.
Nothing here is going to change simply because you do not agree with
some aspect of it.

==
Respectfully,
Avidius Tullius Callidus
Paterfamilias, gens Tullia
Tribune of the People


Subject:	Re: Nova Roma
From:	Zemetrius@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:52:21 EST

In a message dated 3/11/99 9:42:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------es:

<< Marcus Minucius Audens.
>>
after reading your comments this would seem to be a good time to resign my
commission as Prefect Probatii.....this is regretable but i see no other
choice.
good day to you all, may you relize what you seek.
Zemetrius


Subject:	Re: New Lists
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:12:05 -0600 (CST)

On 03/11/99 13:47:07 you wrote:
>
>From: Masterofhistor--------t;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166066165056209112225046026229222078143100196169130152150" >masterofhistor--------..</a>
>
>
>I have gone out of my way to meet our newcomers in the Forum, those
>posting here as Temale and ENFLAGN. It is my opinion that they are
>intelligent but unperceptive, energetic but unfocused, and idealistic
>but not realistic with regards to what Nova Roma is and is capable of
>doing in the present. It is the exuberance of youth untempered by
>experience I suppose.

Callidus, I doubt seriously that these are newcomers.
Simply new names. The writing styles are too familiar.
Just hit the "delete" button and ignore them if they bother you.

-- Flavia Claudia

"I don't care if he's fornicatin'
Long as I got my plastic Satan
Sinnin' on the dashboard of my car..."


Subject:	Re: Pennsic
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:12:46 -0600 (CST)

>
><< All they had to do was spend some time at Pennsic...could anyone ever
>possibly
> think 2,000 drunken men running around naked could possibly organize
> themselves well enough to overthrow the U.S. governement?

Hm. 2,000 naked guys? What's the address of this place?

-- Flavia Claudia
whose term as Vestal is up in April....

"I don't care if he's fornicatin'
Long as I got my plastic Satan
Sinnin' on the dashboard of my car..."


Subject:	new lists
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:21:46 -0600 (CST)

Please keep in mind that all these "new e-mail lists" that have supposedly spring up are not official Nova Roma lists, including the "back alley list."
Maybe ESPECIALLY the "back alley" list.
Anyone can start a private e-mail list, but they have no real right to associate it with Nova Roma simply because some of the members are NR
Citizens. Only <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> is the official NR list.

-- Flavia Claudia

"I don't care if he's fornicatin'
Long as I got my plastic Satan
Sinnin' on the dashboard of my car..."


Subject:	Re: re New Lists
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:45:58 EST

i admit that Vercingetorx was probably better at preventing Caesar's logsitics
than caesar was at being a total nincompoop. what i just said was that i
admit caesar's enemy was pretty darn good.

But the fact that his troops were inadequetly fed on many occasions is
testimony to this.


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:49:15 EST

i think side arms are only needed if we are planning to build in Kosovo.
Perhaps a dcorative sword, but nothing above a club for dishing out obedience
upon trespassers. I would also like to see this as a center for the roman
religeon, but don't over do it, tourism would decrees majorly if the city were
focused on only "true belieivers"


Subject:	Re: NR and Legions
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:59:02 EST

In a message dated 3/10/99 11:37:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------es:

<< In closing, I must inform you that in the present NR population there
are about four people who might be mildly interested in doing more than
studying about the Legions. That is approximately 2% percent of the
present NR population. An Imperial Legion was approximately 5,000 men,
so.when we get to a population of somewhere around 250,000 we should be
ready to look into forming a legion of troops for internal security.
Until such time as that increase in population occurs there is much to
do here in Nova Roma in down to earth. dig in with your elbows,and sweat
a little work that must be done, not with spear and sword, but with
ballot and pen. Care to have a part in all that?
>>

as for these comments:

Yup. I think that we do not need legions for Nova Roma. But don't think they
would be unconstitutional, me being a federalist (loose interpretation of
constitution). Legions are made for violence, true indeed, but not in the
sense of reenactments. The constitution says nothing about defending land.
that would be the cohort stationed inside Nova Roma. And I believe patroling
Romans would be very cool. Now in my last statements about killing tourism
(not in this e-mail, but in others) and having an appealing "feel" to the city
might seem belittiling to the Relgio Romana, but let's face it. We either
charge humongous tax rates to the few people living in the city, or we welcome
tourism, and big time. My spelling is terrible, given, i can't help it. As
for the 2%, i am sure that we can get a large amount of soldiers, it's not
like all the plebes are particapting in the senate or being tribunes. My
point is not so much that there are not enough people interested, but that
there are so many people not employed otherwise in Nova Roma.

given, 5,000 is a lot. But actually, a roman army would be around 45,000
personal, which naturaly is 6 legions. Then you'd need around 4,000 pack
animals for transporting goods. you'd need a whole other village levied to
food production. and there would be roman marching camps every ten -fifteen
miles. Armies are just hell. we better forget about them. Let's stick to
small cohorts (which are still too large).


Subject:	Re: Nova Roma Capitol Grounds
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:01:08 EST

my only thign against a humble little nook of the world is that rome was no
nook nor was it humble. it was lavish. it was rich, even when in times of
depression.


Subject:	Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:04:13 EST

SCA? what is that? and putting together is not easy task. i promis.


Subject:	Re: NR and Legions
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:07:00 EST

actually, it's 80 people per centurian. The name is decieiving. it's ten
conterbiums, eight men a peice. but i recomend every read teh following
statement:

Rome didn't use Legions for most of the time it was republic. After Marius we
got legions, but then caesar came along within the same century. The original
roman senate used the quincunx, which was the army used against hannible. I
can describe it if you wish.

nor replying to anyone in specific, i think this should go out to everyone
discussing the topic.


Subject:	Re: new lists
From:
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:06:55 EST

In a message dated 99-03-11 17:21:52 EST, you write:

> Please keep in mind that all these "new e-mail lists" that have supposedly
> spring up are not official Nova Roma lists, including the "back alley list."
> Maybe ESPECIALLY the "back alley" list.
> Anyone can start a private e-mail list, but they have no real right to
> associate it with Nova Roma simply because some of the members are NR
> Citizens. Only <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> is the official NR list.
>
> -- Flavia Claudia

Well, you liked it well enough when you were on it!!

The name of the Back Alley will be changing, as I have heard nothing but
whining from those to weak and sensitive to want the name of NR associated
with any other list, like the Back Alley, which grows by leaps and bounds in
spite of it's 'unofficial' status. I am proud to have a list where people are
unafraid to speak their minds and ask questions. To this day, even though I
post my questions to the "main" list AND the Back Alley, the questions 90% (or
better) of the time are answered only by Back Alley members. I feel the Back
Alley is more 'my' list than the 'main' list.

I began the Back Alley (the first deviation from the 'main' list) because the
main list was smothering. I couldn't ask questions and expect to have them
answered with patience or respect for one who isn't knowledgeable in Roman
History or whatever. Some of the responses to my questions have been just
plain rude!! If that is what this 'New Rome' is all about, I am ashamed to be
associated with it.

Amethystia Iunia Crystallina


Subject:	Re: NR and Legions
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:08:20 EST

as i have said before I don't think we will get enough tourism if we
disinclude christians, so i agree with Temale. and by the way, I'm a
historian, and if there will be a actuall city, I'll live to see it.


Subject:	Re: re New Lists
From:	"Gaius Triumphius" poeticfiend@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:11:56 PST

>><was
>>bad at logistics and that he was often careless. Thank you. >>
>>Well I have to agree with later but not the former. Look at Alisa.
>>QM
>>
>
>
> I think that he was a good general, and his record bears that out.
In my
>mind I compare him and Rommel. Both fought many battles under very
>unadvantageous conditions, with supply lines that were so long to make
the
>dangers they were open to ridiculous, but both ended up winning in the
end
>(mostly). An early form of Blitzkrieg maybe... (Caesar just did not
have a
>mad man like Hitler trying to push him in the direction of unwinnable
>battles!)
>
>Jason

I have had very similer thoughts in the past. I agree. = )

Gaius Triumphius
Paterfamilias,Preator,Promoter

Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: re New Lists
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:13:12 EST

I still cannot give caesar credit. his supply lines were gonig through
dangerous territory, but i have to say, i've seen longer. he has many
examples of carelesness in planning.


Subject:	Re: Nova Roman legions was Re: On Classes and Voting Rights
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:16:13 EST

i think comparing the vatican to Nova roma is not only unfair, but
unrealistic. the vatican doesn't need legions. we might. would any country
actually do anything to help us in a time of need? probably not. But for the
vatican? they'd better! What I'm saying is that the vatican doesn't need
soldiers, it has the western world at it's back.


Subject:	Re: re New Lists
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:05:39 -0800

When in the Ancient World have you seen Longer supply lines going through that much
enemy territory?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------; wrote:

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------;
>
> I still cannot give caesar credit. his supply lines were gonig through
> dangerous territory, but i have to say, i've seen longer. he has many
> examples of carelesness in planning.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ideas on how we can improve ONElist?
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> Check out the Suggestion Box feature on our new web site


Subject:	Re: New Lists
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:19:58 EST

now that is some what insulting. i am not even a citizen, and now accused of
conspiracy!


Subject:	Re: Regarding Christians, Rome and monotheism
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:18:02 PST

>From: "Jason Kopeny"
>>
>From: "Jason Kopeny"
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Date: Mittwoch, 10. M�rz 1999 21:16
>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Regarding Christians, Rome and monotheism
>
>
>>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
>>
>>NOTE: Catholics have no reason to believe Jesus died for their sins.
THey
>>could just go murder someone and say a few hailmarys and they're fine
:P
>>
>
>
>Until you take a course on Theology, do not comment on religions you do
not
>understand. It just makes you look stupid.
>
>
Indeed, I am not Catholic, but I was raised Catholic and for a time
considered becoming a nun. That statement about Catholics is just as
egregious as some of the things that Christians say about Pagans.

Lucina Iunia Cypria
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: re New Lists
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:22:33 EST

Hannibal. through foreign gaul and roman italy. sixteen years of it too!


Subject:	Re: New Lists
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:37:29 EST

<<now that is some what insulting. i am not even a citizen, and now accused
of
conspiracy! >>

Same problem here.


Subject:	Re: Regarding Christians, Rome and monothe
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:38:04 EST

<<Indeed, I am not Catholic, but I was raised Catholic and for a time
considered becoming a nun. That statement about Catholics is just as
egregious as some of the things that Christians say about Pagans.>>

For the umpteenth time, it was a joke.


Subject:	Re: New Lists
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:42:01 EST

I sympathize.


Subject:	Re: NR and Legions
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:28:15 PST

>
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=019056014056175209036168000248147208071048" >Zemetrius@--------</--------;
>
>In a message dated 3/10/99 11:37:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
><a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------es:
>
><< our NR Constitution says
> that we will not take land or property by force. >>
>
>it was never my suggestion that land be taken by force or otherwise, i
was
>under the impression(mine alone) that NR was recreating the age of the
Roman
>empire, there was more to imperial rome than just the Religio, but i
will go
>no farther an accept your council. hmmm join the legion.....interesting
>idea.....that does have some appeal, i will look into it. thank you for
that
>suggestion.
>Prefect Probatii Zemetrius
Salvete

I may be wrong, but I always had the impression that we were going more
along the lines of the Republic, not the Empire.

Valete,

L. Iunia Cypria

Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: NR City
From:	"Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia" a_i_c_nocturnia@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:30:17 PST

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
>
><<There are probably more americans in Rome than in Brooklyn, not to
talk
>about poles!
>The trouble is that you can�t trust Castro but you can trust the
ukrainians?
>Nova Roma SHOULD be situated in EUROPE all other options are jokes.
>Who would ever believe a person *novaroman*, who says he/she lives in
the US?
>It�s a bit inconvenient for americans of course but on the other hand
you are
>richer than us eoropeans and it�s easier to get a common accept for the
idea
>of a new Imperium romanum if it�s domains are in the heartland of its
>origins.>>
>
>Okay looks like I change my vote to the Ukraine. Lots of open space,
they
>need the money, etc. But we NEED to get satellite TV :)
>
>"I'd rather be the first man in a barbarian camp than the second man in
Rome."
>-Caesar

Salvete Omnes

OK I'm sort of back on the main list!

As for the city..I do think it's a wonderful idea.
I would love it if we could have land and a city..but I'm not gonna go
to deep into that.

Anyway...I do believe the land, when we get it, should be in Europe..in
one of the areas habited by the Roman Empire.

Italy would be good...but thre's not enough land...maybe Macedonia or
somewhere like that..I don't know...but it would be a good idea.

Noct'a
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Abraham Lincoln
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:38:34 -0800 (PST)

At 10:33 PM 3/10/99 EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------; wrote:
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
>
><<"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out loud
>and remove all doubt.">>
>
>I don't think anyone who expresses their opinion and has reasons behind it
>should be thought of as a fool.
>
><<Well, of course you don't. That is for others to judge.>>
>
>Eh?? Is this a joke?
>
Reductio ad absurdum. Case closed!

Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>

The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>

Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>

The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>

World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>


Subject:	Re: Micronation
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:38:11 -0800 (PST)

At 12:54 PM 3/11/99 EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------; wrote:
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
>
>How does everyone here feel about a micronation within a micronation? Perhaps
>NR could be split, just like ancient rome had the East and West. Those who
>you call the "15 year old children who dont want to wait" can be on one while
>the "old hags" are the other. Separate governments, but they would work
>together. Any thoughts?
>
>
Yes, indeed! I cordially invite you et alii to "split".

Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>

The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>

Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>

The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>

World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>


Subject:	Re: Micronation
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:41:22 EST

diveded we fall. heard that before? it's true. we must remain a stable
force, their aren't many of us, and this kindof malice will truly divide us.


Subject:	Pustule
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:56:25 -0800 (PST)

At 07:41 PM 3/11/99 EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------; wrote:
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------;
>
>diveded we fall. heard that before? it's true. we must remain a stable
>force, their aren't many of us, and this kindof malice will truly divide us.
>
>
"Us?" You are not one of us! You are merely a pustule on the body of the
citizenry, and I call upon our esteemed magistrates to lance you wist all
deliberate speed!

Quirites, has this not gone on long enough?

Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>

The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>

Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>

The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>

World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>


Subject:	Re: new lists
From:	"Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia" a_i_c_nocturnia@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:42:44 PST

Claudia wote:

>Please keep in mind that all these "new e-mail lists" that have
supposedly spring up are not official Nova Roma lists, including the
"back alley list."
>Maybe ESPECIALLY the "back alley" list.
>Anyone can start a private e-mail list, but they have no real right to
associate it with Nova Roma simply because some of the members are NR
>Citizens. Only <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> is the official NR list.
>

Well actually the Nova Roma Back Alley mailing list was started so that
citizens could have a laugh and enjoy themselves, without disruption to
the main list.

To my recollection, Claudia you enjoyed yourself immensly whilst you
were still on it..hmmm maybe yer just a wee bit annoyed at not being on
it now...I dunno.

Noct'a
*Back..and stayin that way!*

>-- Flavia Claudia
>
>"I don't care if he's fornicatin'
>Long as I got my plastic Satan
>Sinnin' on the dashboard of my car..."
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a> and
>select the Member Center link from the menu bar on the left.

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Subject:	Re: OT: Arms versus Unarmed
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:20:15 -0500

I hate guns. They make killing too easy. Give me a good epee or rapier, and
I can hold my own. It's up close and personal then. I'd even prefer a bow
and arrow...

At 22:44 09/03/99 -0600, you wrote:
>From: Mega--------bin--------<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015232190036129" >amgunn@--------</a>
>
>Ave;
>
>We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Our society has emphasized the
>sanctity of human life for so long, that a ideal of the sword for personal
>protection shall forever remain an ideal. Sword, or knife, work is too
intimate
>for the vast majority of humankind. A firearm is impersonal enough that
most folk
>could take the decision to use one. In using cold steel, you are close
enought to
>your opponenet to smell their sweat, and fear, and blood, and bowel... In
>military service I was constrained to take the decision to get up close and
>personal. I didn't, and don't, like having been forced to do so. But, I
would
>make the same decision under similar circumstances.
>
>I respect your apparent age and idealism, and Pray to the Holy Ones you
are never
>forced by circumstance to change.
>
>My Blessings to Thee -- Venator
>
><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------; wrote:
>
>> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
>>
>> <<We live in a broad world where all borders are as sieves. Criminals who
>> bring
>> 100's of tons of "illegal" drugs into the U.S. would have no trouble
importing
>> a
>> few hundred pounds of firearms and ammunition. Firearms, like
>> nuclear-biological-chemical weapons, are "genies" that will never get
back in
>> the
>> bottle. Better they be in service to law-abiding Citizens for defense of
>> self,
>> family, property and community.>>
>>
>> I seriously doubt it would cause much of a problem though. How many
criminals
>> would you have? Why would they pick NR? Sure they could scale the
walls at
>> night or drop a bomb, but thats a threat anywhere. Not having guns isnt
going
>> to change "nuclear-biological-chemical weapons". And guns are a danger
even
>> if the citizens have guns if some psycho with an M16 goes ape-shit in the
>> Forum. Fine, carry a gun if you want, but I think sword fighting should be
>> commonly taught as well as hand-to-hand combat.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Have you visited our new web site?
>> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
>> Onelist: Helping to create Internet communities
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
Citizen of Nova Roma

----------------------------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=165212250009158116172098203108129208071" &--------rbianna@--------</a&--------br>
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197212253112056209171056066140114002071048139" >proserpina@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704


Subject:	Re: OT: Arms versus Unarmed
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:31:22 -0500

At 00:06 10/03/99 EST, you wrote:
>By the way, guns are not a danger "if some psycho with an M16 goes
>ape-shit in the Forum" if some citizen has one with which to stop your
>"psycho."
>
Sure, just like that woman whose parents were killed in the McDonald's in
Texas by the "rabid" gunman who came in picked some people off. She could
surely have brought the gunman down before he killed her parents, pulling
out her gun in the middle of McDonald's, just like an old Western. Just
hope she misses all those little ones waiting for their french fries.
Perhaps all twenty of the other adults would have their guns too, all pull
them at the same time, and kill the made gunman together. Betcha they all
hit home, all twenty of 'em.
Let's get serious here. Guns are bad. They should not be allowed to be
purchased and carried by the average person on a daily basis. Rifle and
shotguns are big and not so easily concealed. They are also what are
generally used by huntsmen for the food game (I believe hunting for sport
is amoral, but that is fully my own opinion).
Having been trained in martial arts I can kill a man with my hands. I can
slit his neck with the very knife he would wield against me, and if I'm
close enough, I can even turn his hand gun onto him and put a hole in his
head with his own gun. If, however, I am seven feet away from a man with a
gun, I must submit to him. I would rather face a sword than a gun. There's
more of a chance for me.
I've learned these things as a result of living life in the harsh inner
city. I'd rather be out in the forests where I can worry less about such
things.


Subject:	Re: OT: Arms versus Unarmed
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:34:11 -0500

At 00:29 10/03/99 EST, you wrote:
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
>
><<By the way, guns are not a danger "if some psycho with an M16 goes
>ape-shit in the Forum" if some citizen has one with which to stop your
>"psycho.">>
>Oh so you're saying you'd like a firefight in a populated area. If we dont
>allow guns, we wouldnt allow guns. So if our citizens dont have them, then
>the criminals wont have them. And who says we wont have a police force that
>DOES have guns?
English police don't carry guns.


Subject:	A Call for Action
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:26:38 -0800 (PST)

Avete Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus et Decius Iunius Palladius, Consulis

(And you thought mud was bad... I'm getting pus all over me!)

But seriously, these newcomers must be expelled from the list as soon as
possible. The main list is supposed to be lean and clean. Since I have
just begun researching the history of Nova Roma for the Camenaeum, and now
look to the archived e-mail of this list as the principal historical record
of our Republic, I have come to feel even more strongly in maintaining the
discipline of the main list. I view with great distaste the prospect of
wading through endless expanses of excrement in order to extract a useful
history of Nova Roma. These newcomers offer little if anything positive,
and much that is injurious and offensive. Is it not clear that they have
the manners, and probably the intentions, of barbarians? And is is not
equally clear that, for the good of the Republic, we must treat them as such?

Esteemed Consuls, please end this now!

May the gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.

Valete.

Marcus Martianus Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>

The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>

Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>

The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>

World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>


Subject:	Re: Temale's god
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:48:43 -0500

Oh dear. I don't turn on my computer for three days, and look what I find.
I'm a bit lost here, and I think I'm glad.

Let's talk about nicer things, k?

Orbianna.

At 16:12 10/03/99 -0600, you wrote:
>From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029176066112038190112158203026129208071" >m--------oon@--------</a>
>
>On 03/10/99 14:37:16 you wrote:
>>
>>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=101056014237018198015098190036129" >Tem----------------</--------;
>>WHAT I WANT: Is a god that crushes his enemies!!! ::starts speaking louder
>>and louder:: WHO PAINTS THE WAY TO THE AFTERLIFE IN THE BLOOD OF HIS
>>ENEMIES!! HE FEEDS HIS PEOPLE WITH BREAD MADE FROM THEIR CRUSHED BONES!
>
>Oh! You want "Vampire, the Masquerade" then! You'll just love it.
>I recommend White Wolf Games' website.
>
>
>Flavia Claudia
>
>
>
>
>"I don't care if he's fornicatin'
>Long as I got my plastic Satan
>Sinnin' on the dashboard of my car..."
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Is ONElist important to you? Has it changed your life?
><a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
>Come visit our new web site and share with us your stories
>


Subject:	Re: OT: Arms versus Unarmed
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:51:38 EST

Exactly my point. No matter how well trained you are, excluding perhaps pure
luck on your pat and stupidity of the person wielding the gun, the man with
the gun, even if its a 7-year-old named Bill, is going to kill the greatest of
warriors. France and Japan had problems with this. Crossbows and later,
guns, would kill the majority of their best trained soldiers before they could
even get within range to fight back.

<< Having been trained in martial arts I can kill a man with my hands. I can
slit his neck with the very knife he would wield against me, and if I'm
close enough, I can even turn his hand gun onto him and put a hole in his
head with his own gun. If, however, I am seven feet away from a man with a
gun, I must submit to him. I would rather face a sword than a gun. There's
more of a chance for me. >>


Subject:	Re: re New Lists please change headers
From:
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:00:19 EST

In a message dated 3/11/99 6:23:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------; writes:

<< Subj: [novaroma] Re: re New Lists
Date: 3/11/99 6:23:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------;
Reply-to: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>

From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------;

Hannibal. through foreign gaul and roman italy. sixteen years of it too!

------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>
Most of the responses do not reflect the headers . Please change your subject
to reflect the topic that you talking about. I have deleated most of everyones
responces rather than wade throught the topic drift!
please compact your responecs to one letter. it will make more room for others
and your post will also make more sence!!

P.A. Olivia who is wondering if the Roman had stilts


Subject:	Re: New Lists
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:27:32 -0500 (EST)

Well said Avidius Tulius Callidius!! Your feelings and outrage is well
put and very much on target, The members of this list must be made to
feel comfortable on the list where they belong and newcomers to the list
should carefully read the rules by which we live here. If those are not
satisfactory then make your exit quietly, or listen for awhile but to
try and make changes without the authority of those placed in charge, is
a serious offence to the people here in NR.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: A Call for Action
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:29:14 EST

excuse me, but have i offended you all so, by offering advice and consult on
roman history? I do believe that i have not offended not one of you. please,
do not talk in such negative ways about those who would not harm you or yours.

- a very distresed "pustule"


Subject:	Re: Pustule
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:27:03 EST

I was reffering to roman historians and patriots alike.


Subject:	Re: Temale's god
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:30:35 PST

Salve,

I dont care for all this sniping myself, but while we're on the topic of
cleaning up the mailing list, could people knock it off with the
ridiculously long .sig files??

Vale,

L. Iunia Cypria
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Regarding Christians, Rome and monothe
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:24:47 PST

Salve

You've said it was a joke, but I did not see the statement where you
said that until after I sent this. As a joke it was in extremely poor
taste.

Vale,

Lucina Iunia Cypria
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	You Win
From:	ENGFLAN@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:49:43 EST

Fine. I'll off myself of the list.

I do remember Hannibal's final words on the roof his house after being
surrounded by Romans. I believe he searched for a way out, and when he saw
all his exits blocked, he took to the roof, where he shouted curses at the
Roman Republic and their people. He cursed them for pursuing a tired and
harmless old man. He then took the poison which he had been carrying since he
became a fugitive.

In Shakespeare's Richard III, Queen Elizabeth asks the former queen Margaret
how she curses so well, because all she had said came true. Margaret said . .
.

"Forbear to sleep the nights, and fast the days;
Compare dead happiness with living woe;
Think that thy babes were sweeter than thy were,
And he that slew them fouler than he is.
Bettering thy loss makes the bad causer worse.
Revolving this will teach thee how to curse."

I am not much of a curser, so I shall not, and I do not hate you, and this is
no loss. I shall be removed from this list shortly. And yes, this entry
would be "off topic." And just in case you'd like to know: this is a speech
in the true Roman way.


Subject:	Re: Temale's god
From:	Temale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:22:51 EST

<>

Whats a .sig file?


Subject:	Re: You Win
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:26:00 -0800 (PST)

Salvete omnes.

<<From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------;

Fine. I'll off myself of the list.>>

Wow! Suddenly I feel like Cicero, who drove people out of Rome with the
power of his oratory. May the gods ensure that, unlike him, it doesn't go
to my head!

I can't that I'm proud of what I've done -- it was all too easy, and a bit
me--------pirited. While I think the dep--------re of <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113111221238211130156218175036129208" >ENGFLAN@--------</--------; is for the
best, the ends does not justify the means. May we all now return to the
thoughtful discourse for which this list was intended, and I ask your
forgiveness that I momentarily strayed from that intended purpose, and
cleaved the general ear with my own indecorous words.

May the gods preserve the Senate and People of Rome. May they also grant me
more wisdom in the future.

Marcus Martianus Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>

Mars Society California
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/marscal/mcalfrm.htm</a>

The Martian Time Web Site
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/mars/calendar.htm</a>

The Martian Ministry of Culture
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/culture/culture.htm</a>

Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too): Rabbit and Cat Rescue and Adoption
<a href="http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm" target="_top" >http://members.xoom.com/mars_ultor/rabbits/html/rabbits.htm</a>

The National Primary System
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/primary/primfrm.htm</a>

World GenWeb Calabria
<a href="http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm" target="_top" >http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~marsultor/calabria/calabria.htm</a>


Subject:	Re: new lists
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:33:11 EST

>From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029176066112038190112158203026129208071" >m--------oon@--------</a>
>
>Please keep in mind that all these "new e-mail lists" that have supposedly
>spring up are not official Nova Roma lists, including the "back alley list."
>Maybe ESPECIALLY the "back alley" list.
>Anyone can start a private e-mail list, but they have no real right to
>associate it with Nova Roma simply because some of the members are NR
>Citizens. Only <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> is the official NR list.
>
>-- Flavia Claudia

Salve Flavia Claudia

Do we not have a copyright on the name of the organization, so that
strangers and interlopers can be prevented from mis-applying it as this
person has done?

If not, then I think that's something the Senate should look into ASAP.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)