| Subject: |
A hard day's work... |
| From: |
"Nathan Hicks" moman@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:40:01 -0500 |
|
What follows is a little invention of a day perhaps spent too idly.
The real matter, the interesting history of the chatroom-war, I
didn't have time to set down, only to introduce. Comments will
be taken as a sign of interest in such an effort; silence, as tacit
and commendably tactful discouragement. ;)
I plan to plot the chatroom history according to an imitation of
the Illiad. (I may proceed in Chapman's heptameter, too.)
Part I
The Argument
When that the forum of our state was new,
And all were civil in the throng it drew,
Then in new Rome the general voice was lent
to praise of Jove and gods beneficent.
The deities, well-pleased by such appeal,
with further favor blessed the Roman weal--
and, further honored, so the warmer grew.
Yet blessing never dwelt misfortune-clear,
But that malignant envy neighbored near.
Upon new Rome had set a gloomy shade,
|
| Subject: |
Re: A hard day's work... |
| From: |
Megas - Robinson amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:05:29 -0600 |
|
Vivat Amicus! Venator
Nathan Hicks wrote: (a wonderful Ode!)
|
| Subject: |
Re: The Aggression |
| From: |
"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:01:58 PST |
|
Salvete Quirites,
Having read all the correspondence in this list on the latest trouble in
the Balkans, I confess to having very mixed feelings about the whole
issue - NATO involvement, the rights and wrongs of the peoples who in
any case will have to live as neighbours somehow after this current
conflagration dies down, etc.
I also have mixed feelings as to whether it's an appropriate subject for
discussion on the main list. Perhaps it is to this extent at least:
that some Nova Roman citizens, and/or their loved ones, are personally
and directly involved, and that therefore we come under a direct
obligation to help them if we can. So: what can be done? Clearly the
Religio Romana can make a difference. I call on all citizens of goodwill
to join me in making daily prayers and sacrifice to Pax and Concordia
(for all concerned), Fortuna Redux (for NATO servicemen out there)
and/or any other divinity they deem appropriate, until this horrible
mess is sorted out (and those espousing other faiths, of course, to pray
to their gods to the same end). Perhaps the Flamenes would care to
formulate a prayer for general use?
Valete in pace deorum,
Nicolaus Moravius Vado.
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Is Kosovo Off Topic? I say NO! |
| From: |
"Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia" a_i_c_nocturnia@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:29:48 PST |
|
Salvete Quirites!
Nova Roma is, essentially, the same as any other country in that we are
a group of people who have citizenship. The main difference, obviously,
is that we don’t alllive on the same landmass.
Nova Romans are the same as the citizens of any other country.
Citizens of ALL countries communicate with their friends and fellow
citizens.
So, how do we communicate?
Some of us can phone each other, but this is not practical for all of
us. Anyway; we have things we want to say to everyone!
For this reason we have a mailing list.
What else is this mailing list for, other than the communication of
common interests?
We all, here, have a common interest in what is happening in
Kosovo/Serbia.
Pilots and Sailors of our native countries are out there risking their
lives.
This, however, is not our main interest.
If Britain, or America (or whichever country) didn’t want to send planes
and forces out there, they wouldn’t. Simple as that.
So we have to look at why they did.
There is no immediate danger of Serbia attacking America or Western
Europe.
The reason NATO forces are undergoing air strikes on Serbia is because
of the slaughter of innocent people.
This affects everybody.
There is an advertisement here in Britain for an organisation called
‘War Child’. The advert shows a young refugee child and the caption
reads: “I’m your child too”.
This is why we are affected.
It is, therefore, a valid topic of discussion.
Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia.
V.Kal.Apr.MMDCCLI
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: A hard day's work... |
| From: |
"Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia" a_i_c_nocturnia@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:43:14 PST |
|
AVE RUSTICUS!!!!!
At last! A lil 'ditty' on our Taverna! :)
Now it will remain forever, for where peeople read and remember,long
after our Tavern is gone, a piece and vision of what was shall remain!
Maybe this will attract more people to come spend their money in the
Tavern......errrr...I mean to come and have a wonderful chat on our
friendly Caupona!
Noct'a
Barmaid of the Papilla Lupae (That's the Taverna for you who don't
know!)
Veteran of the Chatroom wars!
>
>
>What follows is a little invention of a day perhaps spent too idly.
>The real matter, the interesting history of the chatroom-war, I
>didn't have time to set down, only to introduce. Comments will
>be taken as a sign of interest in such an effort; silence, as tacit
>and commendably tactful discouragement. ;)
>
>I plan to plot the chatroom history according to an imitation of
>the Illiad. (I may proceed in Chapman's heptameter, too.)
>
>
>
>
>
>Part I
>
>
>The Argument
>
>
>When that the forum of our state was new,
>And all were civil in the throng it drew,
>Then in new Rome the general voice was lent
>to praise of Jove and gods beneficent.
>The deities, well-pleased by such appeal,
>with further favor blessed the Roman weal--
>and, further honored, so the warmer grew.
>
>Yet blessing never dwelt misfortune-clear,
>But that malignant envy neighbored near.
>Upon new Rome had set a gloomy shade,
>From high Olympus and the factious maid,
>Whose famous mischief drove two shores to grapple
>For but the giving of a golden apple:
>Bellona--she who wreaked offenses dear.
>
>The baleful battle goddess; to whom strife was liefest,
>The ringing sword, the sanguine sport, of joys her chiefest;
>Found none that begged her succors be preponderate,
>For none had prized her tricks the less, had they been shit!
>That haughty heart, though bitten, numb, as by a frost,
>Soon warmed with anger, stinging then with numbness lost.
>Awaked her rage--and peace for Rome was but the briefest.
>
>But in Jove's court there was a lively fest,
>The board with pious Rome's oblations drest,
>And deathless gods debating in their cheer
>The which of them that Rome might most revere;
>Still proud Bellona stood apart the group
>That all caroused our health in nectared stoup--
>It was the crows alone that loved her best. *
>
>Thus malice 'mid the merry scene uprose,
>As she bethought herself our futures woes;
>The feast untouched, the revels all forgot;
>Her mood grown grim, her glare glowed furnace-hot:
>Thus inward crept the coiling adder, Hate,
>The working of whose venom, I here relate,
>Which palsied reborn Rome in wracking throes!
>
>
>[Continuing, perhaps, with some longer pieces turning
>upon the events that shook the chatroom. Expect the
>complete version sometime before Episode Three of
>Stars Wars... ]
>
>
>Cn. Aelius Rusticus, Exsilius, Mus Navifugiens
>
>
>* (And on which score Bellona nursed a wee bit ire,
> For someone spied a corbie building up his nest
> and did so rail at him, that he thought it dire,
> to keep a home where little welcome met a guest.)
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>If you like orange and blue, then you will love our new web site!
><a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
>Onelist: Fostering connections and information exchange
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|
| Subject: |
Re: Etruscans |
| From: |
"Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia" a_i_c_nocturnia@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:52:21 PST |
|
Salve!
Yes, the Etruscan language has been 'attacked' with a variety of Baltic
and Indo-European languages.
There are quite a few who have tried it with Albanian because Albanian
is rather a one-off and because the country was closed off for so long
the original language survived.
Noct'a
>Salvete Quirites,
>
>I came across something interesting when I was researching some
>information on Polish Easter egg dying techniques (My family is Polish,
>so I thought it'd be cool.)
>
>When I was studying Roman culture in schhol and throughout my Latin
>classes, I always wondered what became of the Etruscan culture, and
>everything I read left it assumed they had just died out or something.
>Then I read in this text on Pre-Christian Polish culture something
>unexpected. Apparently some scholars who were trying to find a modern
>language with phonemes related to what they saw in Etruscan to help
them
>translate it, after trying various Mediterranean languages, decided to
>try it against Polish and Slovenian, two Slavic languages, and came up
>with a match. They also found some eleagic texts in which the Etruscans
>referred to themselves as the Sluveni. Kinda neat.:) Thought Nova Roma
>might be interested since the Etruscans were the Romans neighbors for
so
>long.
>
>Valete,
>
>Lucina Iunia Cypria
>Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>New hobbies? New curiosities? New enthusiasms?
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|
| Subject: |
Re: Is Kosovo Off Topic? I say NO! |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:38:00 EST |
|
Salvete omnes
I have to agree with those who have argued the appropriateness of
discussing the events in Kosovo in our forum.
According to our founding documents, we are not just an Internet group
for chatting about Roman history and culture. We assert ourselves to be
"nothing less than" a sovereign nation, and one that asserts a claim to
territories in the region in question. It is certainly a matter of our
national interest if (1) our citizens are involved, directly or
indirectly, (2) the adminstration of territory we claim is affected, and
(3) there is a horrendous precedent established here of armed
intervention in the territory and internal affairs of a sovereign state,
WITHOUT any pretext of war.
I have to question whether this action is being undertaken for
humanitarian motives. The Western powers have made a habit throughout
this entire century of looking the other way while masses of innocent
people were slaughtered. They've allowed the slaughter of innocents in
Rwanda, in Cambodia, in mainland China, in Tibet, in Bosnia, in Chile, in
Argentina, in Nicauragua, in El Salvador, in Lebanon, in Iran, in Iraq,
in Ethiopia, in the Sudan,in Turkey (a NATO member, I believe).... the
list is a long one. Rarely have they intervened to stop it, and then
usually far too late.
So after a couple of years of watching and making idle threats, why are
they risking lives and resources to attack the Serbians? I suggest that
it can hardly be for humanitarian reasons when they have such a long,
sorry record of indifference to human suffering.
I submit that it is because NATO is desparate to find a reason for its
continued existence, and behind NATO, the military industrial complex of
the West is desparate to keep its profits up. NATO was created to block
the expansion of the Soviet Union into Western Europe. With disappearance
of the SU, and the impotence of the Russian Federation, NATO, that vast
grand military force and bureaucracy, has no more reason for existence.
So it proposes to become the international SWAT team (or the enforcers)
of Europe.
And just as the arms industries profit by the expansion of NATO -- all
those new members have to start equipping their forces with expensive
NATO-compatible arms and equipment. Now the profits will be boosted even
more by the expenditure of arms and equipment in battle.
And those of us residing in the U. S. know that Clinton still needs an
overseas distraction. The tail is still wagging the dog.
It would be nice to think our nations do things for humanitarian and
moral reasons, but I fear that just isn't true and never has been.
Valete
L. Sergius Aust.
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
|
| Subject: |
Yugoslavia and Nova Roma |
| From: |
Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:36:13 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salvete, Quirites.
Sun Tzu, who in the 5th c. B.C.E. wrote the first military manual, observed
that the competent commander knows when to fight and when not to fight. Or
as I would put it, while not every battle offers the opportunity for
victory, every battle is an invitation to disaster.
What is to be gained by embroiling Nova Roma in a debate over the Yugoslav
War? Shall we persuade both sides to return to the peace table and net
ourselves the Nobel Prize? Hardly! The fact is that we cannot in any way
influence what is happening in Yugoslavia, and therefore, we have nothing to
gain by involving ourselves as citizens of Nova Roma. If you are compelled
to speak out on this issue, please do so as a citizen of your macronation,
since that is where the action is in any case.
And what does Nova Roma stand to lose? We have formed the Republic of Nova
Roma because of our common interest in Roma Antiqua. Still, few of us have
ever met face to face. We really don't know each other very well. You
don't know what my position is on abortion, same-sex marriage,
physician-assisted suicide, affirmative action, or any of a number of
hot-button social issues. Would you like me, and everyone else in Nova
Roma, to express our individual views on these issues? Can you imagine the
results? Suppose, for instance, that Clinton's impeachment had become a
topic for discussion on the Nova Roma list? Or even better, let's go back
thirty years and try to imagine what Nova Roma would have been like if it
and the Internet had existed and we had decided to allow discussion of the
Vietnam War on the list. Since we do not know each other very well, since
we appear to be nothing more than faceless signatures and assumed identities
in cyberspace, it will be very easy for us to rapidly become impassioned and
to in very short order hurl epithets at each other that would blister the
coating off of stealth fighters.
Yes, I believe in Nova Roma as a real nation, but in building a nation, wise
leadership is essential. There are nations who have sovereignty over
territory, but small populations, the Maldive Islands, Tuvalu, Andorra, et
cetera, that might be considered micronations, and I believe that few if any
of them have expressed a position on this war. It is no disgrace for Nova
Roma to follow their example; rather it is the wise course, it is the
refusal to engage in the battle that offers no gain but certain destruction.
Let us not set loose the Yugoslav War into the Forum and allow it to
Balkanize Nova Roma!
May the Gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.
Valete.
Marcus Martianus Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm</a>
Mars Society California
The Martian Time Web Site
The Martian Ministry of Culture
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too)
The National Primary System
World GenWeb Calabria
|
| Subject: |
I'm ashamed of being Portuguese |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" amg@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:51:16 +0100 |
|
Salvete
Dear friends of Nova Roma, citizens from the world, my brothers!
I just want to express to all my shame of being Portuguese by the position
of my (I thoght) democratic government in the recent conflict in Yugoslavia.
I want to apologize for taking part (although unwillingly) with my taxes in
the massacre of the Serbian population and on this crime against worldwide
friendship and trust. My country has sent F-16 to the Balkans, I pray to the
Gods for these planes to be shot down before killing more people, people
that I don't know and have no reason to be my enemies.
Please, citizens of the World, I ask for your pardon, not only for myself
but also to my fellow portuguese citizens, who also desire Pax to reign
again. May the Lusitans have the opportunity to compensate this shame some
day.
Valete omnes
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Propraetor Provinciae Lusitaniae
|
| Subject: |
Re: Yugoslavia and Nova Roma |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:59:17 EST |
|
In a message dated 3/29/99 9:36:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
writes:
<< What is to be gained by embroiling Nova Roma in a debate over the Yugoslav
War? Shall we persuade both sides to return to the peace table and net
ourselves the Nobel Prize? Hardly! The fact is that we cannot in any way
influence what is happening in Yugoslavia, and therefore, we have nothing to
gain by involving ourselves as citizens of Nova Roma. If you are compelled
to speak out on this issue, please do so as a citizen of your macronation,
since that is where the action is in any case. >>
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! AND THANK YOU!!!!
<<And what does Nova Roma stand to lose? We have formed the Republic of Nova
Roma because of our common interest in Roma Antiqua. Still, few of us have
ever met face to face. We really don't know each other very well. You
don't know what my position is on abortion, same-sex marriage,
physician-assisted suicide, affirmative action, or any of a number of
hot-button social issues. >> etc.
AGAIN...THANK YOU!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Is Kosovo Off Topic? I say NO! |
| From: |
"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:20:30 -0500 |
|
Salvete Luci Sergi et alii
:From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
:
:
:I have to agree with those who have argued the appropriateness of
:discussing the events in Kosovo in our forum.
:
Appropriate or not, it is the subject about which everyone wants to talk.
So be it then, let's talk about it.
::
:I have to question whether this action is being undertaken for
:humanitarian motives. The Western powers have made a habit throughout
:this entire century of looking the other way while masses of innocent
:people were slaughtered.
::
:I submit that it is because NATO is desparate to find a reason for its
:continued existence, and behind NATO, the military industrial complex of
:the West is desparate to keep its profits up. NATO was created to block
:the expansion of the Soviet Union into Western Europe. With disappearance
:of the SU, and the impotence of the Russian Federation, NATO, that vast
:grand military force and bureaucracy, has no more reason for existence.
:So it proposes to become the international SWAT team (or the enforcers)
:of Europe.
I'm afraid that I have to agree.
:
:And just as the arms industries profit by the expansion of NATO -- all
:those new members have to start equipping their forces with expensive
:NATO-compatible arms and equipment. Now the profits will be boosted even
:more by the expenditure of arms and equipment in battle.
:
:And those of us residing in the U. S. know that Clinton still needs an
:overseas distraction. The tail is still wagging the dog.
Yes, this is true too. I had predicted that we would bomb Baghdad if and
when articles of impeachment got to the House floor, and, that's pretty much
what happened. The timing of this strike on Serbia less obviously serves to
distract public attention from an anti Clinton crisis, but the fact of US
heavy-handed, belligerent policy about the Balkans certainly supports the
notion that this administration actively promotes crises abroad to deflate
domestic ones.
:
:It would be nice to think our nations do things for humanitarian and
:moral reasons, but I fear that just isn't true and never has been.
It's rarely moral or humanitarian to drop bombs, I'd say. And before
everyone jumps on me for protecting Milosevic the Aggressor, just keep in
mind that the UCK (Kosovo Liberation Army) has been in the business of
executing Kosovar Albanians for years. It is not proven whether some of
this year's mass killings in Kosovo were done by Serbian paramilitaries or
UCK guerillas.
Kosovo does not seem to be a clearly-defined case of oppressor vs.
oppressed. Well, at least prior to the NATO bombing campaign. Now, based
on news reports over the last few days, the Serbs really have stepped up
activity and are torching all non-Serb houses in some villages and driving
people into the hills in the thousands. The UCK is resisting, but I don't
know how effectively.
So, the effect of our bombing, from where I'm standing, has been to disable
some of Serbia's sophisticated military infrastructure, while encouraging
more offensives on the ground -- the place where people have been killed in
Kosovo's recent history. Some likely developments in the not-too-distant
future:
1. Incursions into Yugoslavia by Croatian forces -- some of them are
veterans of ethnic cleansing warfare as well, and they have territorial
disputes with Yugoslavia, on the Prevlaka Peninsula and elsewhere. Now that
Milosevic has no air defense nor command/control, the Croats would be in a
position to pick up some territory that they wanted in the last war but did
not have time to grab.
2. More popular support in Eastern Europe for anti-West figures, like
Aleksandr Lukashenko, who could possibly become President of a new Slavic
Union in coming years.
3. Return to some extent to bipolarization in Europe, and thus more impetus
to further NATO and an anti-NATO.
4. More, not less, internecine warfare in Kosovo, Serbia and perhaps
elsewhere in the Balkans, precipitating deployment of NATO ground forces.
I submit that all these developments are against the interest of Nova Roma,
because Nova Roma is a nation of people on the same planet, and these
events, should they come to pass, threaten to impact all our lives.
:
:Valete
:
:L. Sergius Aust.
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
:
:
:
:certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
:
:(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
:
:
:------------------------------------------------------------------------
:New hobbies? New curiosities? New enthusiasms?
:<a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
:Sign up for a new email list today
:
|
| Subject: |
Re: Calendar Conversion |
| From: |
Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:09:30 -0500 |
|
I got this from H-Law & thought some citizens may be interested.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
PS. By the by, I think N. Moravius Vado's contribution on the
Balkan War issue is the best suggestion anyone has yet made as to how Nova Roma should
approach this issue.
***************************************************************************
Prompted by discussions on medieval-religion I have recently set up a
webpage for calendar conversion, which may be of interest also for members
of other lists: <a href="http://www.lieberknecht.de/~prg/calendar.htm" target="_top" >http://www.lieberknecht.de/~prg/calendar.htm</a>
It is programmed in JavaScript and can be used with JavaScript capable
webbrowsers such as Netscape Communicator 4.x or MS Internet Explorer 4.x.
You can also download it for off-line consultation, by simply saving the
page to your disk. So far it allows to convert dating formulas with
kalends, nones and ides and to verify weekdays and various indiction styles
(Greek, Roman, Bedan) and New Year styles (Byzantine Style, Christmas
Style, Pisan and Florentine Annunciation Style, Venezian Style, Easter
Style). It is limited to the Christian era (Julian calendar until 4 Oct
1582, Gregorian calendar afterwards, Easter dates from 326 on). Corrections
and suggestions of how to improve this page are very welcome.
As a more comprehensive and particularly useful website I recommend Peter
Binkley's new _Medieval Calendar Calculator_ which produces tables of
months, years and sundays for the time 500-1582, including fixed and
movable feasts and offering a template for customizing these tables
according to the users specific needs:
<a href="http://www.execulink.com/~edwall/calendar/mcc.htm" target="_top" >http://www.execulink.com/~edwall/calendar/mcc.htm</a>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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D-12163 Berlin
tel: ++49 +30 8516675, fax: ++49 +89 6661792543,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=034176192254056209213158163043244222136208139046209" >lie--------necht@--------</a>
Homepage for Dante Studies:
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Listowner of Italian-Studies:
<a href="http://www.mailbase.ac.uk/lists/italian-studies/" target="_top" >http://www.mailbase.ac.uk/lists/italian-studies/</a>
Listowner of Medieval-Religion:
<a href="http://www.mailbase.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion/" target="_top" >http://www.mailbase.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion/</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Is Kosovo Off Topic? |
| From: |
Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:11:22 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salvete, omnes.
It has been said that the first casualty of war is the truth....
Requiescat in pace, veritas!
Marcus Martianus Gangalius
At 08:38 AM 3/29/99 EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; wrote:
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
>
>Salvete omnes
>
>I have to agree with those who have argued the appropriateness of
>discussing the events in Kosovo in our forum.
>
>According to our founding documents, we are not just an Internet group
>for chatting about Roman history and culture. We assert ourselves to be
>"nothing less than" a sovereign nation, and one that asserts a claim to
>territories in the region in question. It is certainly a matter of our
>national interest if (1) our citizens are involved, directly or
>indirectly, (2) the adminstration of territory we claim is affected, and
>(3) there is a horrendous precedent established here of armed
>intervention in the territory and internal affairs of a sovereign state,
>WITHOUT any pretext of war.
>
>I have to question whether this action is being undertaken for
>humanitarian motives. The Western powers have made a habit throughout
>this entire century of looking the other way while masses of innocent
>people were slaughtered. They've allowed the slaughter of innocents in
>Rwanda, in Cambodia, in mainland China, in Tibet, in Bosnia, in Chile, in
>Argentina, in Nicauragua, in El Salvador, in Lebanon, in Iran, in Iraq,
>in Ethiopia, in the Sudan,in Turkey (a NATO member, I believe).... the
>list is a long one. Rarely have they intervened to stop it, and then
>usually far too late.
>
>So after a couple of years of watching and making idle threats, why are
>they risking lives and resources to attack the Serbians? I suggest that
>it can hardly be for humanitarian reasons when they have such a long,
>sorry record of indifference to human suffering.
>
>I submit that it is because NATO is desparate to find a reason for its
>continued existence, and behind NATO, the military industrial complex of
>the West is desparate to keep its profits up. NATO was created to block
>the expansion of the Soviet Union into Western Europe. With disappearance
>of the SU, and the impotence of the Russian Federation, NATO, that vast
>grand military force and bureaucracy, has no more reason for existence.
>So it proposes to become the international SWAT team (or the enforcers)
>of Europe.
>
>And just as the arms industries profit by the expansion of NATO -- all
>those new members have to start equipping their forces with expensive
>NATO-compatible arms and equipment. Now the profits will be boosted even
>more by the expenditure of arms and equipment in battle.
>
>And those of us residing in the U. S. know that Clinton still needs an
>overseas distraction. The tail is still wagging the dog.
>
>It would be nice to think our nations do things for humanitarian and
>moral reasons, but I fear that just isn't true and never has been.
>
>Valete
>
>L. Sergius Aust.
>
>
>
>certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
>(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>New hobbies? New curiosities? New enthusiasms?
><a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
>Sign up for a new email list today
>
>
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm</a>
Mars Society California
The Martian Time Web Site
The Martian Ministry of Culture
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too)
The National Primary System
World GenWeb Calabria
|
| Subject: |
[Fwd: Ancient History Newsletter] |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:18:10 -0800 |
|
This might be of some interest! :)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus
Ancient/Classical History Guide wrote:
> =========================================================
> A N C I E N T * H I S T O R Y * N E W S L E T T E R
>
> N.S. Gill
> Ancient History Guide at The Mining Co.
> March 29, 1999
> Vol. III Issue #13
>
> =========================================================
>
> THIS WEEK'S FEATURE: Balkan Cleansing
> In answer to a reader's question, this page provides
> internet information on the history of the Albanians.
>
> Unless something else momentous comes up, this is the last
> WEEKLY newsletter/feature for a while. Expect biweekly
> updates.
>
> =========================================================
>
> SITE UPDATE (Net Links)
>
> --------------------------------
>
> CHILDREN
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub1.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub1.htm</a>>
>
> Romeinen en Latijn Interactive Page
>
> --------------------------------
>
> MAPS
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub16.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub16.htm</a>>
>
> Europe 395 AD
> Eastern Empire 395 AD
> Europe in 476
>
> --------------------------------
>
> EMPERORS
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub34.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub34.htm</a>>
>
> Emperor Trajan - His Life
>
> --------------------------------
>
> WEAPONS
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub14.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub14.htm</a>>
>
> Roman Legion
>
> --------------------------------
>
> TIMELINE
> <<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimeeurope.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimeeurope.htm</a>>
>
> Balkan timeline
> Chronology of Events
>
> --------------------------------
>
> If you know of a link I should include, please send it to me.
>
> =========================================================
>
> LINKING TO MY SITE
>
> If you would like to link to my site graphically, please
> select
> one of these four banners (with instructions):
> /library/bllink.htm
> Many thanks!
>
> =========================================================
>
> CURA UT VALEAS
>
> N.S. Gill
> Ancient/Classical History Guide at The Mining Co
>
> <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=243071219009056116050199186219249063039158139102017099009143116067142076083" >ancienthistory.guide@--------</a>
>
> =========================================================
>
> This Newsletter is copyrighted 1999 by N.S. Gill and The
> Mining Co. Feel free to distribute this Newsletter in its
> entirety to anyone who may be interested.
> ISSN: 1521-9232
>
> ---------------------------------
> *About This Newsletter*
>
> To add a new email address or remove your email address from this
> newsletter, visit: <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/gi/pages/mmail.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/gi/pages/mmail.htm</a>
> and click the subscribe or unsubscribe button.
>
> This newsletter comes courtesy of The Mining Co., the Net's only network of
> sites led by expert human guides. If you have friends who might enjoy this
> mailing, please feel free to forward it to them. To subscribe to more of
> the Mining Co.'s hundreds of other free newsletters go to:
> <a href="http://home.miningco.com/gi/nletter/mmail.htm" target="_top" >http://home.miningco.com/gi/nletter/mmail.htm</a>
>
> To start your exploration of The Mining Co. visit <a href="http://home.miningco.com" target="_top" >http://home.miningco.com</a>
> where you'll find expert guidance on thousands of topics.
>
> MiningCo.com - We mine the net so you don't have to.
|
| Subject: |
Re: A hard day's work... |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:25:58 EST |
|
&g--------om: "Na-------- Hicks" &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=029233014237078135050082190036" &g--------man@--------&l--------&g--------fon--------r>
>
>
>What follows is a little invention of a day perhaps spent too idly.
>The real matter, the interesting history of the chatroom-war, I
>didn't have time to set down, only to introduce. Comments will
>be taken as a sign of interest in such an effort; silence, as tacit
>and commendably tactful discouragement. ;)
>
>I plan to plot the chatroom history according to an imitation of
>the Illiad. (I may proceed in Chapman's heptameter, too.)
[snip]
Salve!
I like it.
Vale
L. Sergius Aust.
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
|
| Subject: |
Re: Is Kosovo Off Topic? I say NO! |
| From: |
SDmtwi@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:41:56 EST |
|
Salvete,
First, I still think this issue is off-topic. However, as C. Marius Merullus
said, "Appropriate or not, it is the subject about which everyone wants to
talk. So be it then, let's talk about it."
> The reason NATO forces are undergoing air strikes on Serbia is because
> of the slaughter of innocent people.
While I sympathize with your outrage, I must humbly disagree. The slaughter
of relatively innocent people goes on around the world, twenty-four hours a
day. The US does not involve itself in the vast majority of these situations.
And, if you have any knowledge of the US' involvement in Central America
during the eighties, you know that its people can be just as brutal and
vicious as Mr. Milosovic's people.
The reason NATO is bombing Serbia is because its role has been redefined
since the Soviet Union broke up. As a strictly military venture, it was
rapidly becoming obsolete. Consequently, mainly at the behest of American
policy makers and weapons manufacturers, it searched for a mission that would
allow it to survive. Therefore, it became a tool for forcing countries in its
sphere of influence to become relatively open and egalitarian societies with a
free market economy based on the American model. Note that membership in NATO
requires a certain human rights and economic record.
This worked as long as there was nobody around strong enough to contest
America's economic domination of the world economy. However, countries like
France, Russia, India, and China, rightly worried about the US mucking about
in their sovereign affairs, have been working steadily to reduce the US'
influence. And, Mr. Clinton has failed miserably in his foreign affairs.
So, a pair of rogue nations - Serbia and Iraq, backed by Russia, have been
steadily bloodying the US' nose for years. The plan (no, not in some grand
paranoid conspiracy way, but in a deliberate Russian policy way) is to
continually tax the US' ability to the limit with an interminable quagmire in
Iraq and a simultaneous quagmire in the Balkans. (It doesn't matter if it's a
military or a political quagmire, but its worse for the US when it's
military.) Mr. Milosovic has taken NATO on not because he's a stupid butcher,
but because he knows that NATO's resolve is weak (too much reliance on bombing
raids always shows a lack of resolve - re: Vietnam, etc.), and that a great
power is backing him.
In addition to this, as L Sergius has pointed out, is pressure from arms
manufacturers for NATO expansion. One of the major reasons for the current
wedge between the US and Russia is Russia's perception of NATO encroachment.
Although, he's wrong that the use of weapons will drive the military
industrial complex's profits up. It won't hurt, but it won't be nearly as
much as a deal to include, say, Lithuania in NATO would.
As an aside, Clinton is not using this to distract people from his
infidelity. As proof, I offer the fact that the December bombing of Baghdad,
while it did coincide with the impeachment hearings, also coincided with what
was probably a coup attempt against Saddam Hussein. There is a lot of
evidence that the air strikes were an attempt to aid one of the several anti-
Hussein factions in Southern Iraq in a failed ouster of Mr. Hussein.
Now, to answer some of Merullus' points:
"1. Incursions into Yugoslavia by Croatian forces -- some of them are
veterans of ethnic cleansing warfare as well, and they have territorial
disputes with Yugoslavia, on the Prevlaka Peninsula and elsewhere. Now that
Milosevic has no air defense nor command/control, the Croats would be in a
position to pick up some territory that they wanted in the last war but did
not have time to grab."
This is a very possible eventuality, except that the Serbs haven't been hit
as hard as you might think. The recent loss of an F-117 stealth fighter
proves that. They've been very, very careful to husband their anti-aircraft
equipment to give the Russians time to fracture NATO's resolve (the Greeks,
Italians, and French are all grumbling). And, the specter of Russian military
aid is very real.
"2. More popular support in Eastern Europe for anti-West figures, like
Aleksandr Lukashenko, who could possibly become President of a new Slavic
Union in coming years."
This has been happening for a while now. The failure of capitalism in Russia
has led to a resurgence of nationalism. Boris Yeltsin managed to remain in
relative control mainly by cooling relations with the US. Milosovic came to
power in the eighties on a platform of Serbian nationalism.
"3. Return to some extent to bipolarization in Europe, and thus more impetus
to further NATO and an anti-NATO."
Unfortunately, the cold war does seem to be returning.
"4. More, not less, internecine warfare in Kosovo, Serbia and perhaps
elsewhere in the Balkans, precipitating deployment of NATO ground forces."
I guarantee that Russia will take every opportunity to aid anti-US efforts by
countries that it feels it can exert pressure on later.
"I submit that all these developments are against the interest of Nova Roma,
because Nova Roma is a nation of people on the same planet, and these
events, should they come to pass, threaten to impact all our lives."
I couldn't agree more. War and oppression are brutal, indefensible, and
evil. Any effort to galvanize people to stop them is a good thing.
Valete,
T. Labienus Fortunatus
|
