Subject:	Festival of Ceres and Ludi Romani
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:36:47 +0100

Salvete omnes!

Today starts the festival of our Mother Ceres! Sacrifices of grain, salt,
and incense were offered. A sow was particularly the blood victim for Ceres.
Fasting until sunset was required. The story of Ceres is mainly that of her
search and lamentation for her daughter Persephone, after the girl was
abducted from Sicily by Dis (Pluto or Hades). Ovid (Fasti IV.550) adds the
story of Triptolemus, the first farmer, son of Celeus and Metanira. Ceres
was especially worshipped in Sicily, and there were some famous images
called the Mothers of the Gods (Plutarch, Lives, Marcellus) that were
associated her cult.

Salve Ceres
Gratias agimus tibi
Mater Deorum
MaterRomani
Da abundantiam Populo Romano
Da nobis panem quotidianum
Et orationes nostras aude
Ita est

Citizens of Rome, as already announced, as part of the Festivals of Ceres,
gladiatorial games shall be held on April 14th, the date chosen by the
Augurs of Nova Roma. The games shall be held at 5:00 PM (portuguese hour),
which corresponds to 9:00 AM in LA. The room used for the Games is:
<a href="http://pluto.beseen.com/chat/rooms/k/912054/index.html" target="_top" >http://pluto.beseen.com/chat/rooms/k/912054/index.html</a>
Ceres will surely hear our joint prayers.

Valete

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedile Plebis

Subject:	Re: New England Exhibit!
From:	Michael Cessna clinkerbuilt2@--------
Date:	Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:47:47 -0700 (PDT)

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------;
>
>
> > << Remember Dex you are taken with Crys...LOL...
> :) >>
> >
> > It's a marriage of convenience! I need the tax
> right off! : )
> >
> > --Dexippus
>
>
> BOO BOO HOO!!!! I knew he only wanted me for my tax
> deduations!!!
> MEN!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>>
Which is, of course, why we need a flat tax, with no deductions--to
prevent tragedies of this sort!!! 8D~ (sorry, I just couldn't resist!)

Gn Marius
>>
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at <a href="http://mail.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://mail.yahoo.com</a>

Subject:	Re: What's in a Name?
From:
Date:	Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:57:07 EDT

In a message dated 4/11/99 11:48:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
writes:

<< It is in this milieu that
Nova Roma aspires to grow, eventually into a territorial nation. Therefore,
it is altogether fitting and proper that we "try to impress" Christians and
Jews. And Muslims, and Buddhists, and Hindus, et cetera. >>

I wholeheartedly disagree! We are not here to impress anyone. We are here
to form a community of people who are inspired by and enjoy the grandeur that
was Rome. A large percentage of those people are PAGAN...and define
themselves as PAGAN...not polytheists or heathens. We should use the term
that is recognized. If you don't like it and want to call yourself something
different, then go right ahead.

<<We say
that we welcome moderate people of all faiths, yet our sincerity would be
better demonstrated by our own use of more moderate language.>>

There is nothing radical about the word PAGAN. Emperor Julian used it to
describe the Religio aside from Christianity. It is a part of our history
and should remain intact.

Going with your logic, I guess I'm not GAY...I'm HETEROSEXUALLY CHALLENGED?

<<But, as a nation, the
face that Nova Roma presents to the world should be one that is inviting,
not challenging; confident, not defiant. We have nothing to lose and
everything to gain by this.>>

We have our dignity and self respect to lose. We have the greater
PAGAN/NEO-PAGAN community to lose. You may not like them or may not agree
with their own personal chosen paths, but they are going to be the ones to
support us and our endeavors with the Religio, not the Christians, Muslims,
and Jews no matter how liberal they may be.

<<And so I say, let us, as Novaromani, use a word that frees us of the
emotional baggage of the past, that turns away from the persecution of the
past, that uplifts us, ennobles us, and leads us into a future of hope and
peace.>>

I am so sorry that you feel PAGAN is a dirty word. But if Nova Roma is going
to try to impress the greater Judeo-Christo culture we live in, then it is
going against the idea for which I became a citizen and I will at that very
moment surrender my citizenship with this organization. This is not a
threat, just a fact. And I'm sure there are others who would feel the same
way.

---Dexippus

Subject:	Re: What's in a Name?
From:
Date:	Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:01:17 EDT

In a message dated 4/11/99 6:49:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082194184241189100114253071048139" >JusticeCMO@--------</--------; writes:

<< The point here is that yes, some folks have a
problem with the term pagan. Why would we asume the problem is with a mere
word and not the concept of a ploytheistic religion? Maybe this is my own
inexperience talking, but I have found that the vast majority of grief I get
from folks due to my religion is not over what I choose to call it, but that
it is polythesitic. That, my friend, will not change with a mere alteration
in terms. >>

This is truth!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Roses and Hyacinths
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Date:	Mon, 12 Apr 1999 07:18:56 PDT

> 10. Origin of Hyacinth?
> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=070181044180042031218223203043129208071" >eburhard@--------</a> (Douglas Swank)
> 11. Re: Origin of Hyacinth?
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
> 14. Re: Hyacinth
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=060100214139010197242218175036129208" >PTh0815@--------</--------;

Salvete!

Scripsit Dexippus:

>A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

- Rosa rosa rosa est est est.

- Et Catamus inquirit:

>I'm trying to find any of the myths surround HYACINTH.

- Deinde respondit Dexippus:

>If I recall, Hyacinthus was a beautiful young man with whom Apollo was in
>love. Boreaus, the North Wind (or is it the West Wind), was also taken by
>his fancy. But it wasn't Ares.
>
>Anyway, one day when Apollo and Hyacinthus were playing discuss, Boreaus - in
>jealousy - caused the wind to send the discuss smashing into Hyacinthus'
>head. His wound was so extensive that even Apollo's healing power could not
>heal him back to health. Apollo then turned him into a flower to preserve
>his beauty.
>
>Anyone else care to add to the story? I may be missing some details here and
>there.

- Hyacinthus was a son of Amyclas, King of Sparta. In the version I heard it was Zephyrus, the South Wind, who was jealous. From the youth's blood that fell on the earth, the first hyacinth flowers sprang up. You can still read the Lord Apollo's grief written on their leaves in the Greek letter Y (supposedly his exclamation "Ay!"), or, if you prefer, the first letter of the youth's name - 'YAKINTHOS. There was a hero- cult of Hyacinthus at Amyclae, and a festival in his honour (the Hyacinthia).

Valete in pace deorum,

Nicolaus Moravius Vado.

Subject:	Re: Comitia Reform (was The proposal for the Comitia Populi Tributa)
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:43:22 -0400

Salvete Flavi Vedi Germanice et Avidi Tulli et alii

I always thought that something had to be implemented, at least in part,
before it could be effectively reformed.



>From: "Flavius V--------s G--------nicus" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=045202250078193194170218163036129208" >jkbloch@--------</a>
>
>
>My apologies for coming into the discussion late,

And I'm sorry that I got into the taverna too late to chat with Avidius
Tullius both Saturday and Sunday.

--deletion--
But, in brief, my proposals (which I truly
>believe would best serve our Republic) are:
>
>- Centuries that reward those who are older (for their life experience) and
>those who donate more time and money to the State.

Age and monetary contributions are easy to document. But how does one
document contributions of time/effort to Nova Roma?

>- Tribes based on geography, as they were in ancient Rome (more or less).

I have been thinking that we may be trying too hard to find a rational basis
for creating tribes, especially given the massive differences between our
Republic and that of Roma in the early days of the Republic. If we use
geography, the tribes may eventually come to have a nature that is more
factional and "special interest" prone than desirable. If we base tribal
association on territorial residence, then we create another real division
within the Republic (we already have divisions based on two orders and
provincial residence -- with which divisions I am not arguing, as they seem
compatible with my understanding, albeit limited, of the Republic of Roma
Antiqua, and are in keeping with Nova Roma's constitution). I think that it
is widely understood that the formation of tribes based on rural/urban
residence in the Republic became a means of serious dilution of many
citizens' voting rights. Since our Republic is one that grows by means of
voluntary association, only instititutions that are reasonably equitable by
modern standards will help us.

On the other hand, we want to emulate the Roman Republic as well as we can
and adopt as many of its institutions as we can. Hence a lot of difficulty
trying to figure out a way to devise tribes in an equitable way.

How about arranging tribes alphabetically by nomen? The result creates a
tribal assembly inclusive of all Novoromani, patrician and plebeian. The
selection into tribes will be sufficiently random that we can safely dismiss
any possibility of creating more factionalism. Sure, it's not very
meaningful an association, nor does it re-create tribes that come out
looking like those of Roma Antiqua. But, on the positive side, it would
allow us to create tribal assemblies rather quickly, in a rather
non-discriminatory fashion, and move toward implementation of the
constitution.

>- A separate Comitia Populi and Comitia Curiata, with the curiae of the
>latter based on gens (and roughly equal in size).

Was not the Comitia Curiata practically out of use well before 200 BC? It
is not called for in Article IV of Nova Roma's constitution. I think that
it is counterproductive to add the complexity of additional assemblies at
this point in time.

>- Direct voting by tribes and centuries, rather than the cumbersome and
>abuse-prone system of spokesmen that we currently have.

Again, we have not implemented any system. We can anticipate abuse in one
system, or inefficiency in another, but we should all keep in mind that
there has not yet been any abuse of our system, if for no other reason than
that it has not begun to work at all. Now, speakers-for-life would indeed
have opportunity to abuse their positions, but so do magistrates and
senators. Heck, you cannot have any sort of hierarchical organization
without creating opportunities for abuse of office.

I am not sure why the constitution calls for speakers-for-life in one
assembly, and temporary speakers in the other two (you probably know better
than most of us, Flavi Vedi, since you and Iulianus were consuls at the time
that the constitution was debated, and, I always thought, wrote it
yourselves), but I suggest that we go with that arrangement, and reform it
at such time as abuse becomes demonstrable.
>
--- the Centuries of the Comitia ---deletion
>
>Historically, Comitia Plebis had 4 "urban tribes" and 31 "rural tribes". In
>my proposal, the 4 urban tribes would be made up of individuals outside
>North America; 1 for Europe, 1 for Asia/Australia, 1 for Central/South
>America, and 1 for Africa. The remaining 31 would be divided amongst the US
>States and Canadian Provinces, so that collections of states and/or
>provinces would be roughly (probably very roughly) equivalent in
population.
>That way, non-Americans wouldn't be overwhelmed by inclusion in tribes that
>also included Americans.

But, the American tribes would always vastly outnumber the non-American
ones. Now, I'm not for or against America within the context of Nova Roma
(and I dont want to be for or against her here, it's irrelevant). I just
think that this sort of territorial weighting will have a divisive effect.
>
>I've never been happy with our Comitia Populi--deletion---

>
>Also, as our Constitution now stands, only the spokesmen of the Comitia
>Populi are permanently elected; all the others are elected for the vote at
>hand and then discarded. I believe this is a cumbersome and unnecessary
>device, and one prone to abuse. My proposal to the Senate does away with it
>(except in the case of the new Comitia Curiata, whose spokespeople are
>elected for life)

?

; the vote of each tribe and century should simply go to
>the majority of its members. (How would you like it if 90% of your tribe
>voted for spokesman X, who suddenly voted against their candidate because
it
>suited his fancy?)

Right, noone would like it, and anyone who tries this sort of foolishness
should keep in mind that, not only will his/her tenure as "speaker" be
short, but so will his/her days of remaining a citizen be numbered. People
are not going to tolerate manipulation; it may be slipped by them once in a
while, but in this kind of highly connected information environment, fraud
probably won't be too easy to maintain (especially if we organize unofficial
exit polls and such).

If we do have fraudulent speakers-for-life, whom we cannot for some reason
remove, then the system will indeed have to be scrapped and re-worked. That
would be reform. I think that pervasive fraud is unlikely, because I don't
think that I or many of the people here would do it. Would we?

This way we keep the historical apparatus of voting by
>groups, but we allow for modern technology by counting direct majorities
>within those groups.

That sounds like a good guiding principle for resolving these assembly
questions. The speakers can help with the count and coordinate
communication, but not anything more than that.
>
>While I don't normally approve of of bringing Senate discussions into the
>public venue, since the topic of Comitia reform has come up both publically
>and in the Senate, it seemed appropriate to do so in this case. Just wanted
>to let everyone know that the Senate really is trying to _do_ things to
make
>Nova Roma better!

Thanks for going public.
>
>In service to to the Republic,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus, Senator
>
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	[Fwd: Ancient History Newsletter]
From:
Date:	Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:50:34 -0700

Salve, this might be of interest especially the Government Section given the
Proposals that have been discussed recently.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus

Ancient/Classical History Guide wrote:

> =======================================================
> A N C I E N T * H I S T O R Y * N E W S L E T T E R
>
> N.S. Gill
> Ancient History Guide at The Mining Co.
> April 13, 1999
> Vol. III Issue #14
>
> =======================================================
>
> Is the politician a more primitive humanoid?
>
> A fanciful picture of human evolution:
> <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5894/hominids.gif" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5894/hominids.gif</a>
>
> =======================================================
>
> THIS WEEK'S FEATURE: The Rise of Democracy: The Four Tribes
>
> First in a series on Greek Democracy, this part looks at the
> social structure of land-owning Athenians.
>
> =======================================================
>
> ANCIENT EVENTS
>
> Sampling of events celebrated during April from the Events
> Calendar
> (<a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/gi/pages/mevents.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/gi/pages/mevents.htm</a>)
>
> Festival of Ceres
> Festival of Bast
> Rome's Birthday
> Thargelia
>
> =======================================================
>
> SITE UPDATE (Net Links)
>
> AUTODIDACTS/HOMESCHOOLERS
> (Formerly, Children & Families)
>
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub1.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub1.htm</a>
> Roman Empire
> A Brief History of the Roman Empire
> Faces of the Pharaohs (not really new, just lost and
> rediscovered)
> Tyrian Purple of Kings
> Did You Know?
>
> --------------------------------
>
> CLASSICS
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub19.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub19.htm</a>
> Virtue and the Proper Political Individual
>
> --------------------------------
>
> ECONOMICS
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub11.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub11.htm</a>
> Economics in Ancient Greece
>
> --------------------------------
>
> EGYPT: ART/ARCHAEOLOGY/ARCHITECTURE
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub28.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub28.htm</a>
> Egyptian Art in the Age of the Pyramids
>
> --------------------------------
>
> EMPERORS
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub34.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub34.htm</a>
> Chronology of Augustus' Life
>
> --------------------------------
>
> GREECE: BIBLIOGRAPHY
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubgkbiblio.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubgkbiblio.htm</a>
> Ancient Greek Music
>
> --------------------------------
>
> K-12
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubk12.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubk12.htm</a>
> Ancient History Unit 3
>
> --------------------------------
>
> LANGUAGE
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msublanguage.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msublanguage.htm</a>
> Development of the Alphabet
> Sino-Egyptian Word Comparisons
> The Dispilio's Scripture
>
> --------------------------------
>
> LATIN
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub17.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub17.htm</a>
> Ancient Scripts
>
> --------------------------------
>
> NEAR EAST
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub6.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub6.htm</a>
> Epic of Gilgamesh: Enkidu's Dream
>
> --------------------------------
>
> NEAR EAST: ART/ARCHITECTURE/ARCHAEOLOGY
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub36.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub36.htm</a>
> World Civilization 101 Reader: Images of the past
>
> --------------------------------
>
> MEGALITHIC MONUMENTS
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub38.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub38.htm</a>
> Stone Circles
>
> --------------------------------
>
> MAPS
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub16.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub16.htm</a>
> Ancient Latvian Tribes
> Roman Britain
>
> --------------------------------
>
> PHILOSOPHERS
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubphil.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubphil.htm</a>
> Aristotle
> Aristotle vs. Plato
>
> --------------------------------
>
> PHOENICIANS
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubpunic.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubpunic.htm</a>
> Phoenicia
> Missionaries of Civilization
> Bibliography
>
> --------------------------------
>
> POMPEII
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub33.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub33.htm</a>
> Ancient Reconstruction of the Pompeii Forum
>
> --------------------------------
>
> RHETORIC
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub30.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub30.htm</a>
> A Brief on Rhetoric
>
> --------------------------------
>
> ROME
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub3.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub3.htm</a>
> Roman Senate
> Roman Names
> Voting Tribes
> Rome Government
>
> --------------------------------
>
> SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubscience.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubscience.htm</a>
> Roman Numeral Dates
>
> --------------------------------
>
> TIMELINE EUROPE
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimeeurope.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimeeurope.htm</a>
> Goths Timeline
>
> --------------------------------
> TIMELINE Multi Cultural
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimemulti.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimemulti.htm</a>
> Chemical Engineering Timeline
> An Overview of Mediterranean History, 1200-25 B.C.E.
>
> --------------------------------
>
> TIMELINE Near East
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimenear.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubtimenear.htm</a>
> Rulers and Dynasties
>
> --------------------------------
>
> WEAPONS
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub14.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msub14.htm</a>
> Roman Legions
>
> --------------------------------
>
> WOMEN'S BIO
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubbiofem.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/msubbiofem.htm</a>
> Boadicea
>
> --------------------------------
>
> If you know of a link I should include, please send it to me.
>
> =======================================================
>
> Q&A
>
> Q.
> 1.[Please write your answers on the Bulletin Board at
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/mpboards.htm]" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/mpboards.htm]</a>
> Does anyone know if Celts, particularly the Brigantes, had
> surnames? I have some male first names but I'm looking hard
> for female first names of British Celts. Any help would be
> most appreciated!
>
> 2.My aunt was recently given a very old scarab brooch and
> bracelet by an
> elderly woman who acquired it from her eccentric world
> traveling grandmother. My aunt would like to locate someone
> who can translate the hieroglyphics and also determine if
> the brooch and bracelet are authentic. My aunt lives in
> Galveston, Texas. Do you know of a college, professor, or
> archaeologist in the Texas are that specializes in Egyptian
> hieroglyphics?
>
> 3.[For discussion on the Bulletin Board at
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/mpboards.htm]" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/mpboards.htm]</a>
> The term I use is rather impossible, as the Romans never had
> a monetary policy, but there is something I would like to
> discuss. What about the dawnfall of the Roman economy in the
> third Century? Of course the empire had to put enormous sums
> into defence, encrease administration to collect taxes and
> take over some economic ventures from the private. But it is
> also said that the gold mines of esp. Spain were nearly
> exhaused by 200 AD or what about the possibility that the
> import of luxury goods from the East (silks from China) had
> to paid by gold. Could somebody comment on these ideas.
>
> 4.[For discussion on the Bulletin Board at
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/mpboards.htm]" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/mpboards.htm]</a>
> I would like to add another question to contemplate.
> Diocletian saved the empire in 284 AD, but at high costs.
> Creating an authoritarian dominate with stringent rules to
> set right the social and economic downfall. All civilians
> had to live by very strict rules, which regulated their
> professions, the prices of the goods, etc... Older
> historians who wrote about this period said that it nearly
> [suffocated] the economy and peoples daily lives. Others,
> say that these policies were only very losely followed.
> Would somebody like to comment?
>
> [Please post your response on the Bulletin Board at
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/mpboards.htm]" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/mpboards.htm]</a>
>
> =======================================================
>
> LINKING TO MY SITE
>
> If you would like to link to my site graphically, please
> select
> one of these four banners (with instructions):
> <a href="http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/library/bllink.htm" target="_top" >http://ancienthistory.miningco.com/library/bllink.htm</a>
> Many thanks!
>
> =======================================================
>
> CURA UT VALEAS
>
> N.S. Gill
> Ancient/Classical History Guide at The Mining Co
>
> <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=243071219009056116050199186219249063039158139102017099009143116067142076083" >ancienthistory.guide@--------</a>
>
> =======================================================
>
> This Newsletter is copyrighted 1999 by N.S. Gill and The
> Mining Co. Feel free to distribute this Newsletter in its
> entirety to anyone who may be interested.
> ISSN: 1521-9232
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
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