| Subject: |
Re: Comitia Reform (was The proposal for the Comitia Populi Tr... |
| From: |
BenBorgo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 02:16:14 EDT |
|
(I know, I know this might come a little late, but at least it's not
about the topic that seems to be first on everyones mind when there are
certainly more important matters at hand.)
Salve!
I've read the previous arguments & would like to offer my opinion and
questions. First of all there should definatly be both on Comita Centuriata
and a Comita Plebis. If either is already in use the fact that it has been
brought up shows that it requires reform. Shouldn't the citizens who are most
involved be granted a greater weight than those who aren't? The citizens who
make the greatest sacrifices, should be given the greatest gifts.Would our
vote grow a little thin, sure , but those who ran, nurtured, and cared for
our Republic would surely know whats best for the Republic. All the people
would retain their equilibrium in government through other elected officials.
Secondly, it seems most logical to divide up the tribes by geography. We wish
the tribe to function like a family, and a family should fuction almost as
one person. And what is this person when his limbs and heads are severed, and
scattered all around? It gives each individual a chance to meet with his
peers to exchange ideas, vote, and discuss a variety of subjects. When people
can meet in person, there is less chance of corruption. It is all to easy to
betray a computer screen, than to conspire against a group of people that
have looked you in the eye, and who you have trusted with a sizable
responsbility. I have some confusion as to how each assembly will be chosen
if anyone cares to clarify?Also, has the spokesmanship previously been
abused? It seems to me that to take away this chance for active citizens to
acheive this pestigious (yet truly powerless) position. I've already said
that tribes should be decided by geography, and agree that making the 4
'urban tribes those of Europe,Aisa/Australia,Central/South America, and
Africa, and the 31 'rural' tribes being divided amongst the US and Canada.
But only if the vast majority of our citzens reside on North America (I'm
pretty sure it does). We're not excluding people outside the US & Canada, nor
are we reducing their say in government. There are simply more people here
than anywhere else. I'M certainly not trying to say that the US or Canada is
better than any other country (in fact, I believe quite the opposite.) I was
also wondering if the Comitae were allowed to meet of their own accord in
order to bring proposals before the senate? (how bout that skretching halt!)
If someone could let me know the outcome of the Senate's deliberations as
soon as possible, I'd be thankful.
Respectfully yours,
Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
(I apologize for the brevity of this post, but I'm tired, & I'm going to
bed.)
|
| Subject: |
Reposted in the forum. |
| From: |
SFP55@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 03:29:08 EDT |
|
Reposted in the forum.
LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!
Tommorrow at 12:00 Noon PDT Flavis Eburnus of Luceria
will engage in mortal combat with Acco of the Esulates at the Arena
<a href="http://venus.beseen.com/chat/rooms/d/439123" target="_top" >http://venus.beseen.com/chat/rooms/d/439123</a>
You will need your password to enter.
Flavis the Samnite is 5' 4" 148 lbs, good looking brunette. He'll be
fighting as a Myrmillo. This means he has a scutum (oblong shield) a short
sword, one greave, armor for his sword arm and hand as well as the sword
shoulder. His armor will be tinned so he'll appear to have silver armor.
Flavis has had 10 fights. 6 kills.
Acco of the Esulates tribe is a Gaul. He is 5' 7" 170 lb., a blonde with
two mustaches. He will also be fighting as a Myrmillo. His armor will be
guilded so he'll appear to have golden armor.
Acco has had 7 previous fights. 4 kills.
Be there!!
For those who can't make the noon bout, we will rebroadcast it at 6:00 PM
PDT. We would appreciate if people that attended the bout would refrain from
making comments about winners and losers until the rebroadcast is completed.
Thank you.
>>
|
| Subject: |
Ludi Romani: Sacrificium pro Ceres |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" amg@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:05:50 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes,
I'm posting to remind you again of the Roman games that will take place
today at 12:00 Noon PDT. These Games constitute a sacrifice to Goddess Ceres
whose Festival lasts until April 19th (Cerealia). The date of April 14th was
chosen by the Augurs as the most propitious date for the Games.
Quintus Fabius Maximus, one of the most honorable citizens of Nova Roma has
chosen the gladiators.
Flavis the Samnite is 5' 4" 148 lbs, good looking burnate. He'll be
fighting
as a Myrmillo. This means he has a scutum (oblong shield) a short sword,
one
greave, armor for his sword arm and hand as well as the sword shoulder. His
armor will be tinned so he'll appear to have silver armor.
Flavis has had 10 fights. 6 kills.
Acco of the Esulates tribe is a Gaul. He is 5' 7" 170 lb., a blonde with
two
mustaches. He will also be fighting as a Myrmillo. His armor will be guilded
so he'll appear to have golden armor.
Acco has had 7 previous fights. 4 kills.
The Arena is at
<a href="http://venus.beseen.com/chat/rooms/d/439123" target="_top" >http://venus.beseen.com/chat/rooms/d/439123</a>
You will need your password to enter.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedilis Plebis
|
| Subject: |
Re: Celebrate History |
| From: |
Cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:45:27 EDT |
|
Salvete,
Many sincere thanks to C. Aelius Ericius, Q. Fabius, L. Fabius, and the
Martiani Gangalii!!! Being responsible for a display at a live event is not
an easy thing. Such work is fun, but requires a lot of attention, and dealing
with large crowds DOES take a lot out of you even if you're sharing the
responsibility for staffing a table with others.
Your efforts are very much appreciated, and hopefully everyone had a good
time. Can't wait to hear more about the whole Celebrate History event! :)
Vale ,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
In a message dated 4/13/99 11:51:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<<
We went. It was cool. We made it back.
At the event were Q. Fabius. L. Fabius. The Martiani Gangalii. And myself.
I want to write up a longer report, less than 25 scrolls, but that will have
to
wait.
All the flyers went over well (with the exception of one person). The
surprise
hit was the flyer I made of the Declaratio Religio. All but two went the
first
night, and I don't think they were taken by hostiles. More later, unless you
are lucky.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius
Propraetor ad Californiam Provinciam
Pontiff
Paterfamilias gens Aelia
>>
|
| Subject: |
Re: What's in a Name? |
| From: |
missmoon@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:23:28 -0500 (CDT) |
|
On 04/13/99 14:03:08 you wrote:
>
>Based on the glossary of terms related to Judaism Pagan means Heathen.
>My personal definition is the worship of gods other than the one True
>God Jehovah. "You shall have no other gods before me" Exodus 20:3. I
>fully believe this, for God is a jealous God, & a jealous God is an
>angry God. Do you people really believe in all the gods of Roman
>Antiquity, or is it just pretend? I can deal with pretend, but not
>reality. Could I still be a member of Nova Roma even though I don't
>believe in, or worship, the gods of antiquity?
>
Sure, you can be a member! As long as you contribute something of interest about Rome and Roman culture, we're glad to have
you. You don't have to believe in our gods, but you have to respect the Religio Romana.
But the first time there's any proselytizing, preaching, or attempted soul-saving, you're outta here, buddy.
Your god may be angry, jealous or whatever, but that's his/your business. To paraphrase your own insulting words, "Do you
really believe in this god, or is it just pretend?" If you "can deal with pretend but not reality", maybe you'd be better off
somewhere else, because with us, it isn't pretend.
-- Flavia Claudia
|
| Subject: |
OHMYGODS!!!!!! |
| From: |
MaNPaRoman@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:08:53 EDT |
|
Salvete!!!
I am SO excited I hardly know what to do with myself (I want to jump up and
down, but I have a sleeping Lapis on my lap and I'd hate to wake him!)!!!!!
My Sodalis site has won it's first award!!!!!!!!!
Crys (tickled pink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- or is it amethyst??? <G>)
|
| Subject: |
Re: Comitia Reform (was The proposal for the Comitia Populi Tr... |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:55:16 -0400 |
|
Salvete Gnaee Tarquini et alii
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------;
>
> I've read the previous arguments & would like to offer my opinion
and
>questions. First of all there should definatly be both on Comita Centuriata
>and a Comita Plebis---deletion--All the people
>would retain their equilibrium in government through other elected
officials.
>Secondly, it seems most logical to divide up the tribes by geography. We
wish
>the tribe to function like a family, and a family should fuction almost as
>one person.
As Avidius Tullius Callidus has pointed out, the tribe will function like a
voting district, that is, a way of grouping people into a tribal assembly.
Tribal association in Nova Roma's assemblies should not create a notion of
kinship. Any system of tribal formation that promotes factionalism or
illusions of tribal allegiance (interpreting "tribe" in a pre-Roma,
primitive way, or as "gang") is not suited to the purpose of forming our
assemblies.
And what is this person when his limbs and heads are severed, and
>scattered all around? It gives each individual a chance to meet with his
>peers to exchange ideas, vote, and discuss a variety of subjects. When
people
>can meet in person, there is less chance of corruption.
There is surely some truth in your point, but thus far Nova Roman get
togethers are very sporadic, infrequent and small-scale. Since most of our
communication takes place in electronic fora, I see no need for tribes to be
based on geography. At the same time, there is no harm in adopting that
approach, especially if it is the easiest basis to formalize and implement.
--deletion--I have some confusion as to how each assembly will be chosen
>if anyone cares to clarify?
Outside of the Senate, noone can know.
Also, has the spokesmanship previously been
>abused?
It could not have been, because it has not been implemented.
--deletion--I've already said
>that tribes should be decided by geography, and agree that making the 4
>'urban tribes those of Europe,Aisa/Australia,Central/South America, and
>Africa, and the 31 'rural' tribes being divided amongst the US and Canada.
>But only if the vast majority of our citzens reside on North America (I'm
>pretty sure it does). We're not excluding people outside the US & Canada,
nor
>are we reducing their say in government.
We would be reducing their say in government, relatively. Because catch-all
tribes analogous to the urban ones in Roma Antiqua (Suburana et Esquilina?)
would contain many more citizens than those analogous to the old rural ones.
Citizens in the "rural" tribes thus have a much greater say than the masses
dumped in the "urban" tribes. That is not to say that we cannot adopt a
tribal system as you describe; it would actually capture some of the
elements of the Roman Republic, which was far from a perfectly equitable
system by modern standards. But let's not kid each other: we'd be
minimizing the power of the votes of non-North American citizens.
There are simply more people here
>than anywhere else.
Yes there are. So the citizens based in North America have a majority, no
matter how the assemblies are organized. Where's the need to compound the
effect by institutionalizing dilution of non-North American votes?
I'M certainly not trying to say that the US or Canada is
>better than any other country (in fact, I believe quite the opposite.)
That's irrelevant to Nova Roma. Isn't it?
I was
>also wondering if the Comitae were allowed to meet of their own accord in
>order to bring proposals before the senate? (how bout that skretching
halt!)
No comitia will probably have an accord; each can be convened by certain
magistrates (according to the constitution -- a wholly different,
non-constitutional system may be adopted).
>If someone could let me know the outcome of the Senate's deliberations as
>soon as possible, I'd be thankful.
Me too. Which is not to say that I favor any hasty action on the Senate's
part. I think that we all agree that they should deliberate on this as much
as necessary and do it right.
> Respectfully yours,
> Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Comitia Reform (was The proposal for the Comitia Populi Tr... |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" jkbloch@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:51:23 -0400 |
|
Salve,
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------;
>responsbility. I have some confusion as to how each assembly will be chosen
>if anyone cares to clarify?Also, has the spokesmanship previously been
>abused? It seems to me that to take away this chance for active citizens to
>acheive this pestigious (yet truly powerless) position. I've already said
Since the spokesmanship only lasts for the duration of the current vote, I'd
even say it's not even that prestigious! No, it hasn't been abused, but I am
trying to forestall a situation where someone is elected as a spokesman for
a given vote only to turn around and vote the opposite way of the majority
of the tribe/century.
>better than any other country (in fact, I believe quite the opposite.) I
was
>also wondering if the Comitae were allowed to meet of their own accord in
>order to bring proposals before the senate? (how bout that skretching
halt!)
Actually, the Comitiae can meet to pass laws, which have more weight than a
mere Senatus Consultum. The Senate can make policy, but the Comitiae can
pass laws.
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
|
| Subject: |
Re: OHMYGODS!!!!!!2 |
| From: |
MaNPaRoman@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:14:40 EDT |
|
Salvete and Criminy!!
I got another one!!!!!!!!!
Crys
|
| Subject: |
Re: OHMYGODS!!!!!! |
| From: |
Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:22:29 -0700 (PDT) |
|
What is this site about and whee can we see it?
Gaia
At 09:08 AM 4/14/99 EDT, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------; wrote:
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------;
>
>Salvete!!!
>
>I am SO excited I hardly know what to do with myself (I want to jump up and
>down, but I have a sleeping Lapis on my lap and I'd hate to wake him!)!!!!!
>
>My Sodalis site has won it's first award!!!!!!!!!
>
>Crys (tickled pink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- or is it amethyst??? <G>)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Start a new hobby. Meet a new friend.
><a href="http://www.ONElist.com" target="_top" >http://www.ONElist.com</a>
>ONElist: The leading provider of free e-mail list services!
>
>
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm</a>
Mars Society California
The Martian Time Web Site
The Martian Ministry of Culture
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too)
The National Primary System
World GenWeb Calabria
|
| Subject: |
Re: OHMYGODS!!!!!! |
| From: |
MaNPaRoman@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:32:43 EDT |
|
In a message dated 99-04-14 13:21:39 EDT, you write:
> From: Gail and Thomas Gangale <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
>
> What is this site about and whee can we see it?
>
> Gaia
Weeellllll, it hasn't been approved by the senate yet, but I'm so proud of
it, I'm gonna show it off anyway.
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/roma/sodalis.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/roma/sodalis.htm</a>
Crys (2 awards -- I'm SOOOO proud of myself!!)
|
| Subject: |
Re: What's In a Tetragrammaton |
| From: |
"Nicolaus Moravius" n_moravius@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:04:42 PDT |
|
Salvete Quirites!
Imprimis: I humbly apologise to Marcus Cassius Iulianus for having believed him to be absent in his capacity as Pontifex Maximus, No offence was intended. I really did check on the NR Website first, honest. I couldn't find a Pontiff anywhere (where ARE they, when you need one?)
:-)
Et item: I would also like to take this opportunity to tender my respectful thanks to Fl. Vedius Germanicus and Ericius for correcting me on the subject. But if I'd been a Magistrate with Imperium (instead of a toe-rag from Britannia and the Angiportus Posticus), Dexippus' actions would, I contend, have been quite correct.
:-)
Et iterum: Didn't I read somewhere that the 'One True God''s initials (YHVH) stand for "I am whatever I choose to be" - ? (Prof. Ninian Smart, "The Religious Experience of Mankind", Fontana 1973 or thereabouts) ?
:-.
Valete, vos omnes, in pace deorum,
Vado (Imperial Well Adjusted Mediterranean Monarch of the Ethereal Plains) (But only e pluribus unum, y'understand).
|
| Subject: |
Re: What's in a Name? |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:14:29 EDT |
|
In a message dated 4/13/99 2:03:13 PM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=113100020078018198218097203102129208071" >ETillery@--------</a> --------es:
<<My personal definition is the worship of gods other than the one True
God Jehovah. "You shall have no other gods before me" Exodus 20:3. I
fully believe this, for God is a jealous God, & a jealous God is an
angry God. Do you people really believe in all the gods of Roman
Antiquity, or is it just pretend? I can deal with pretend, but not
reality. Could I still be a member of Nova Roma even though I don't
believe in, or worship, the gods of antiquity?
>>
None of this is pretend. In fact the mere insinuation of such is insulting.
Did you not read the homepage? (once again!)
I, and most citizens of NR, am Pagan (polytheist, heathen, whatever!). We
worship the ancient Gods and Goddesses of Rome and other cultures. We are
seriously dedicated to that worship either as Classical Reconstructionists,
Witches, Asatruar, or other paths. We have altars, idols, and other images.
We offer prayers, incense, and sacrifices (though no blood sacrifices).
You do not have to be Pagan to be a citizen of NR. We do have some Christian
citizens among us. The only requirement for becoming a citizen is a love of
all things Roman. However, if you truly believe your god is a jealous god
and feel a necessity to try and convert those among us who do not share your
ideals, then it would be best for you to leave. We do not take kindly to
anyone who would attempt to persuade others from their chosen paths. This
also goes for pagans trying to convert christians. The Religio Romana is the
only sanctioned religion of NR but you do not have to practice it to be a
citizen.
If you feel jostled by the Pagan direction of this organization, then perhaps
a local Classicist Club at your local College would be a better choice.
Vale,
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: What's in a Name? |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:15:46 EDT |
|
In --------ss--------d-------- 4/13/99 2:47:20 PM EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------; writes:
<< Gods!!! Is it me, or does this make anyone else nervous? >>
You're not the only one Crys...again, another case of somone joining the
list, and/or NR, without reading the homepage!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: What's In a Tetragrammaton |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:18:00 EDT |
|
In a message dated 99-04-14 14:05:00 EDT, you write:
<<
Salvete Quirites!
> Imprimis: I humbly apologise to Marcus Cassius Iulianus for having believed
him to be absent in his capacity as Pontifex Maximus, No offence was
intended. I really did check on the NR Website first, honest. I couldn't find
a Pontiff anywhere (where ARE they, when you need one?)
:-)
No offense taken! :) Since the site hasn't yet been updated to list me as
the Pontifex Maximus, there was no way you could have known. However, there
should have been a link to the Pontificial College on the Priesthoods section
of the Religio Romana page, so that you could get in contact with the
Pontiffs. As far as I know there's been an active link where the Pontiffs
have been recieving Email all along...
> Et item: I would also like to take this opportunity to tender my respectful
thanks to Fl. Vedius Germanicus and Ericius for correcting me on the subject.
But if I'd been a Magistrate with Imperium (instead of a toe-rag from
Britannia and the Angiportus Posticus), Dexippus' actions would, I contend,
have been quite correct.
:-)
My thanks to Germanicus and Ericius as well! I hadn't seen the thread until
fairly late... so I didn't get the opportunity to speak up for my own
existance! :P
> Et iterum: Didn't I read somewhere that the 'One True God''s initials
(YHVH) stand for "I am whatever I choose to be" - ? (Prof. Ninian Smart, "The
Religious Experience of Mankind", Fontana 1973 or thereabouts) ?
Very possibly. I seem to recall it meaning "I am that I am" or some such, but
since I can't remember a credible reference for that I could just as easily
be thinking of old Popeye cartoons...
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Augur (was The Name of the Rose) |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:30:16 EDT |
|
In a m--------g--------t--------/13/99 9:18:11 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< For all that our Dexippus does, as an Augur he does not determine word
choice, or assign penance, or declare war/peace (both of which are good for
business). That is as an Augur. As a Dexippus is an entirely different
kettle of garum. >>
Oh The Love!!!! I CAN FEEL THE LOVE!!!! : )
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: What's in a Name? |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:45:04 EDT |
|
In --------ss--------d-------- 4/13/99 10:32:14 PM EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:
<< I don't know if you're losing it, Crys, but I see nothing here to get
nervous about. The guy is saying he has fixed, conventional religious
notions. So what? He's not threatening anyone (irritating a few, no
doubt).
>>
Not yet at least...that's how it starts. Before you know it...Marconi has
returned!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Games |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:01:24 +0100 |
|
Games are going to start shortly at
<a href="http://venus.beseen.com/chat/rooms/d/439123" target="_top" >http://venus.beseen.com/chat/rooms/d/439123</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: The Name Game |
| From: |
Michael Cessna <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=219128020185221198218171228026247222123098100046209130" >clinkerbuilt2@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:26:08 -0700 (PDT) |
|
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 4/13/99 10:05:21 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------; writes:
>
> << Should Dex call himself an
> Italian/Gay/Wiccan/Roman (sorry Dex, I know most
> about you and your as
> thorough a melting pot as Terry and Lapis almost
> LOL)?? >>
>
> Hey...no problem...but it would go more like this:
>
> Italian/Sicilian/Gay/Queen/Freak/Roman/Wiccan/Pagan...with
> a twist! : )
>
> --Dexippus
>
>>
...Does that include the lemon?..... ;-P~
Gn Marius
>>
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at <a href="http://mail.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://mail.yahoo.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: OHMYGODS!!!!!! |
| From: |
Michael Cessna <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=219128020185221198218171228026247222123098100046209130" >clinkerbuilt2@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:57:01 -0700 (PDT) |
|
>>
Salvete, omnes!
After viewing the site listed below, I would encourage the Senate
to expedite the approval of this Sodalis, with all dispatch.
Great job, Crys!!!!! ;->
Valete, et Bona Fortuna!
Gnaeus Marius Asiaticus
>>
>
<some snippage>
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------;
>
>
> Weeellllll, it hasn't been approved by the senate
> yet, but I'm so proud of
> it, I'm gonna show it off anyway.
>
> <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/roma/sodalis.htm" target="_top" >http://members.tripod.com/~acl_pit/roma/sodalis.htm</a>
>
> Crys (2 awards -- I'm SOOOO proud of myself!!)
>
>
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|
| Subject: |
Re: Comitia (was etc.) (long) |
| From: |
Mike Ma--------r <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=174176211056207031025158175026172165098048139046" >MikeMa--------r@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:05:41 -0400 |
|
Salvete Omnes!
I think that the discussion of the Comitia needs to take account of some
fairly basic principles.
1) Whatever we do at this stage has to be consistent with the NR
Constitution.
Only the Comitia are empowered to change the Constitution. Once
we've got one of the Comitia up and running, we can make whatever
amendments are appropriate. For this purpose (and notwithstanding what I
said before) we MUST divide the citizenry into thirty tribes and elect
speakers for life i.e. until we amend the Constitution.
In this context, Ericius has a good point when he says that
this is the job of the Censors - and no-one else. The Censors shall by
Constitution, Art. 3.5.3., "maintain lists of Citizens and appropriate
information concerning them". Neither the Senate, nor any other magistrate,
nor the Forum, has any jurisdiction in this matter. In Roma Antiqua, if the
Censors failed to act (which did from time to time happen) the only
recourse was a Dictator (or to lynch the Censors and elect now ones). We
are not in the same situation, because NR is IRL a voluntary organisation
by the law of whatever US state applies. If the Censors persistently refuse
to act to enable the Comitia to meet according to the Constitution, by the
modern anglo-american law of meetings their powers will devolve onto the
next most appropriate society officer (magistrate), i.e. the Consuls, and
so on down.
The point of making suggestions is (a) to encourage the Censors to
make their minds up and get their act together, and (b) by way of
preliminary thought about how we should amend the Constitution. What
follows is aimed at this last point: what assemblies should we have and how
organised?
2) Our organisational forms should be as close to those of Roma Antiqua as
is possible, subject to (a) the egalitarianism of modern politics, and (b)
practicality.
What were the roman forms?
The romans had FOUR assemblies.
The COMITIA CURIATA was the oldest. Rituals and Sacrifices were
performed in this Comitia on certain occasions. It was also used for old
forms of adoption into a gens and of making wills. There were 30 Curiae. By
the middle Republic the Curiae had ceased to meet and were represented by
the consular Lictors (guards/ police) when the C. Curiata had to meet.
I agree with Germanicus that we should amend the Constitution to
introduce the C. Curiata, but make clear that it is for religious purposes
and for adoptions (we don't need NR wills) only. We should get volunteers
to act as Lictors to participate.
The COMITIA CENTURIATA was composed of 193 centuries, divided into
classes by wealth. It was designed to weight votes according to financial
(and hence military) contribution to the State. The top two wealth classes
had 98 centuries (the majority); the lowest, propertyless, class had 1
century. The votes were called in order of class and continued only until
an absolute majority was achieved.
The curule magistrates were elected in C. Centuriata, and though it
had a general power to pass laws, in practice laws of constitutional
significance went through C. Centuriata only. I would suggest that we
should amend the NR Constitution to follow this by saying the Constitution
can be amended by C. Cent. only.
To go to straight one person one vote, either in C. Centuriata, or
by abolishing it, would be to adopt Athenian democracy, not Roman
republicanism. I agree both with Tullius that enquiries into individuals'
wealth are not appropriate to NR, and on the other hand with Germanicus
that there should be some form of weighting in C. Centuriata which rewards
experience and commitment to NR. I think, however, that enquiries into
citizens' ages are impractical and decisions about their contribution are
invidious and apt to lead to disputes. It is for this reason that I
proposed that we constitute C.Centuriata on the basis of date of obtaining
NR citizenship. This is a "proxy" for age and commitment which is easy to
administer and won't lead to rows.
The COMITIA TRIBUTA was divided into "tribus", which originally
means "thirds", but were actually simply electoral districts. In fact there
were by the middle republic 35. 4 for the inner city, 31 for the suburbs.
This division was just a gerrymander which was not, unlike the wealth
classes in C.Cent., accepted as legitimate; in the later republic there was
some revision and equalisation of the tribus. C. Tributa elected quaestors.
It had the power to legislate, but was not to any significant extent used
for this purpose.
I would suggest that all magistrates except censors, tribunes &
plebeian aediles should in NR be elected by C. Tributa and that we should
use it as the main legislative body.
My proposal to use the Provinces was not on the basis of one vote
per province, but that each province should have a "block vote", like a
state delegation to a US party convention (?) or presidential electoral
college. The basis of the proposal was (a) practicality - less work for the
Censors; and (b) legitimacy. On the second point, I'm OK with Tullius's
proposal, but I think Germanicus' proposal to recreate the gerrymander
system by allocating 31 tribes to the US would be a totally lousy idea.
Even if the balance of population is 5:1 to the US at the moment (I don't
know) it would send a very bad message to Novaromanae/i outside the US.
The system of voting by speakers should have a 'participatory'
effect: discuss the proposal in your tribus, then elect a delegate to cast
your tribus' vote. It would work better if we used provinces as tribus,
than if we set up artificial tribus.
The CONCILIUM PLEBIS was in the middle to later Republic the
Comitia Tributa meeting without Patricians. It elected the Tribunes and
Plebeain Aediles, and passed plebis scita which from 287 BCE were generally
binding laws. Since there were rather few Patricians and little
relationship, by the later Republic, between being a patrician and being
rich, the C. Plebis was effectively representative. For this reason it came
to be used as the main legislative body, because it could be summoned by
Tribunes, who commonly put forward law reforms not being busy with foreign
affairs (Consuls) or judicial business (Praetors).
I put forward proposals on C. Centuriata and C. Populi (Tributa) in the
first place to make the point that it doesn't have to be as difficult as
Ericius suggests. I now think, however, that the Censors should just APPLY
THE CONSTITUTION (deliberately raising my voice here a little) so that we
can get on with taking whatever decisions we want to take about amending
it. Within that framework, I'm sorry to say that the discussion has led me
to like my own proposals better than I did at first....
Valete,
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
|
| Subject: |
Re: OHMYGODS!!!!!!2 |
| From: |
Steven Rob--------n <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015056190036129" >amgunn@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:32:01 -0500 |
|
Salus et Fortuna Amethystia Iunia Crystallina!
Vivat! - Vivat! - Vivat!
Hey Crys, that is a neat graphic of a Fey Cat on the pet page (Queen
Victoria is meowing "Hello!" right now). I've liked Sod. Inf. website all
along, and it keeps getting better.
I'm proud of ya!
Waes thu Hael! Drinc Hael! Skoal!
In Amicus et Fidelis - Venator
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------; wrote:
>
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------;
>
> Salvete and Criminy!!
>
> I got another one!!!!!!!!!
>
> Crys
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking for a new hobby? Want to make a new friend?
> <a href="http://www.ONElist.com" target="_top" >http://www.ONElist.com</a>
> Come join one of the 115,000 e-mail communities at ONElist!
|
| Subject: |
Re: What's in a Name? |
| From: |
"Tinnekke Bebout" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189176234185056182213038203004129208071" >tinnekke@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:53:35 PDT |
|
>Based on the glossary of terms related to Judaism Pagan means
Heathen.
>My personal definition is the worship of gods other than the one
True
>God Jehovah. "You shall have no other gods before me" Exodus 20:3. I
>fully believe this, for God is a jealous God, & a jealous God is an
>angry God. Do you people really believe in all the gods of Roman
>Antiquity, or is it just pretend? I can deal with pretend, but not
>reality. Could I still be a member of Nova Roma even though I don't
>believe in, or worship, the gods of antiquity?
The answer to the first part is many of us believe in them, this is
not a game, and we are not pretending. The answer to the second
question is yes, as long as you respect the beliefs of others.
Lucina Iunia Cypria
_______________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: The Name Game |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:01:38 EDT |
|
In a message dated 4/14/99 3:26:06 PM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=219128020185221198218171228026247222123098100046209130" >clinkerbuilt2@--------</a> writes:
<< >>
...Does that include the lemon?..... ;-P~ >>
Lime sweetie! Always a lime!
--Dexippus
<<shaken not stirred!>>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Comitia Reform (was The proposal for the Comitia Populi Tr... |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:07:30 EDT |
|
In a message dated 4/14/99 7:01:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:
Greetings Romani!
<<
Tribal association in Nova Roma's assemblies should not create a notion of
kinship. Any system of tribal formation that promotes factionalism or
illusions of tribal allegiance (interpreting "tribe" in a pre-Roma,
primitive way, or as "gang") is not suited to the purpose of forming our
assemblies.
I never interpreted 'tribes' as gangs, & certainly don't wish to promote
factionalism amongst the citizenry. The idea of a tribe being like a family
was merely a metaphor to get my point across that the Comitae should at least
be able to meet in person to deliberate & choose their spokesperson. In my
opinion, all citizens should be brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers & like,
to each other; not to divide but to totally and utterly unite.The only
allegiance I promise & promote is that to Nova Roma, as all will surely see.
<<There is surely some truth in your point, but thus far Nova Roman get
togethers are very sporadic, infrequent and small-scale. Since most of our
communication takes place in electronic fora, I see no need for tribes to be
based on geography. At the same time, there is no harm in adopting that
approach, especially if it is the easiest basis to formalize and implement.>>
My main point is that grouping tribes geographically at least gives us the
chance to meet in person as I stated above. They may be sporadic and
generally small, but we should be promoting meetings between ourselves. I saw
someone refer to Nova Roma as outside of the real world, in order to bring
our nation into a public existance we must escape the chains of being an
online community. Granted our political situation at the present time doesn't
allow this on a large scale, but even if only a few of our assemblies meet
regularly in person, at least we are taking steps to escape the confines of a
computer terminal. (Please don't mistake this comments by thinking I dislike
Nova Roma's procedures and foundations, as no one of you can imagine the
profound elation that rushed through me when I 1st saw your Homepage.)
-
<<We would be reducing their say in government, relatively. Because
catch-all
tribes analogous to the urban ones in Roma Antiqua (Suburana et Esquilina?)
would contain many more citizens than those analogous to the old rural ones.
Citizens in the "rural" tribes thus have a much greater say than the masses
dumped in the "urban" tribes. That is not to say that we cannot adopt a
tribal system as you describe; it would actually capture some of the
elements of the Roman Republic, which was far from a perfectly equitable
system by modern standards. But let's not kid each other: we'd be
minimizing the power of the votes of non-North American citizens.>>
After taking a closer look at the (semi)current gens page and crunching a few
numbers, I can do nothing but agree. We would be reducing the influence of
citizens outside the US and Canada, & by a signifigant amount. I also agree
that this shouldn't happen, & hope the Senate considers the followers we have
off of this continent & doesn't divide the tribes in this manner. (I wasn't
trying to kid anyone, I just figured that the VAST majority of our citizens
was in US/Canada) Your lines that follow make perfect sense so I need not say
more.
<<"Yes there are. So the citizens based in North America have a majority, no
matter how the assemblies are organized. Where's the need to compound the
effect by institutionalizing dilution of non-North American votes?">>
I'M certainly not trying to say that the US or Canada is
>better than any other country (in fact, I believe quite the opposite.)
That's irrelevant to Nova Roma. Isn't it? Very much so,
Sorry.
<<Me too. Which is not to say that I favor any hasty action on the Senate's
part. I think that we all agree that they should deliberate on this as much
as necessary and do it right.
>>
I almost want to say the more time they take the better, but deliberating for
too long can sometimes be as detrimental as would be too short of a
deliberation. Whatever amount of time it takes, the most important thing is
that they 'do it right.'
May Juppiter smile on
us all,
Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
Paterfamilias Gens Tarquinii
PS I've got plenty of other questions but i've got to go back to work, I'll
post 'em later.
|
| Subject: |
Re: OHMYGODS!!!!!! |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:16:51 EDT |
|
In a message dated 4/14/99 10:32:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------; writes:
<< Weeellllll, it hasn't been approved by the senate yet, but I'm so proud of
it, I'm gonna show it off anyway. >>
& rightly so!
BRAVO!
I knew we were a loving bunch afterall!
with Venus' blessings,
Tarquinius
|
| Subject: |
List of Censors |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:26:41 -0700 |
|
Salve, I have located a list of Censors of the Republic from 280 BC. I
thought it might be of interest.
<a href="http://wwwtc.nhmccd.cc.tx.us/people/crf01/rome/censor.html" target="_top" >http://wwwtc.nhmccd.cc.tx.us/people/crf01/rome/censor.html</a>
Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus
|
| Subject: |
No blood? was Re: What's in a Name? |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:36:50 -0400 |
|
Salvete Dexippe et alii
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
We have altars, idols, and other images.
>We offer prayers, incense, and sacrifices (though no blood sacrifices).
The Romans most certainly did offer blood. The blood of a bull was offered
to Iuppiter Optimus Maximus during the inauguration of consuls, was it not?
I would think that animal sacrifice would be a natural element of
reconstructed Religio Romana (I have no idea to what extent other religions
that you mention make use of sacrifice). Why wouldn't Minerva or Mars be
satisfied, more satisfied at that, with an offering of an animal's life?
Religio Romana is not unusual in employing animal sacrifice: the Hebrew
religion also made use of it, at least up to the time of the destruction of
the Great Temple by Roman legions in the 1st century CE.
Maybe you meant human sacrifice? Or that you personally and others who
follow a similar path don't make blood sacrifices?
>
>Vale,
>
>--Dexippus
>
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
