Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:43:56 -0700

>
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus, Senator and Ásatrú Gođi (<a href="http://www.gersey.org" target="_top" >http://www.gersey.org</a>)

I think people should know that Germanicus' above mentioned website has some
very very questionable links, such as this one

Allgermanische Heidnische Front, <a href="http://www.heathenfront.org/" target="_top" >http://www.heathenfront.org/</a>

which is a violent antisemitic page, with an ad for a black metal album which
says "Kill for Wotan, this is an order from Wotan".

Germanicus has a disclaimer saying the Asatru community is large and diverse,
true enough, but then he goes on to say he wont have any sites which advocate
anything violent or illegal. I have to say, anything with "Front" in it's name
should be a dead giveaway to it's nature, and if this is not a violent site than
I am Jesus.

I just want people to know about this.

Pythia

>
>
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Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	Pythia kingan@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:56:35 -0700

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> From: "Flavius V--------s G--------nicus" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=045202250078193194170218163036129208" >jkbloch@--------</a>
>
> Salve,
>
> >From: Pythia <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200176234108158116015132190036129" >kingan@--------</a>
> >I think people should know that Germanicus' above mentioned website has
> some
> >very very questionable links, such as this one
> >
> >Allgermanische Heidnische Front, <a href="http://www.heathenfront.org/" target="_top" >http://www.heathenfront.org/</a>
> >
> >which is a violent antisemitic page, with an ad for a black metal album
> which
> >says "Kill for Wotan, this is an order from Wotan".
>
> Believe me, it was a tough decision to include that particular link on the
> links page. But I could not find anything illegal or directly advocating
> violence on their site, and included it in keeping with the all-inclusive
> nature of the links page to which Pythia refers (here's the disclaimer):
>

You don't think "Kill for Wotan" is not advocating something illegal?

> So, despite what Pythia is trying to insinuate, I don't advocate anything on
> that particular web site. I can't however, justify _not_ including it merely
> because it's offensive, especially since the whole point of my Asatru links
> page is to be complete. Part of being tolerant is being tolerant even of
> those who are intolerant.

I just don't buy that germanicus. To your credit the majority of your Asatru
links are very good, but this particular link was number two or three on the
list. Circle of Europa is dodgey, with its links to the racist "Euro-American
Student Union", which apparently believe Blacks should'nt vote. And there are
several others.

I am bringing these to the attention of this list because I feel these links are
a real lapse in judgement. And Personally, I will not be "telerant os racism or
antisemitism, or any religious or political group that believes in racial
superiority. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see bigotry even when it
is trying to cloak itself. You should be thanking me for helping you clean up
your site!

Pythia

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	BenBorgo@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:08:26 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/15/99 7:58:26 PM P--------ic D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
writes:

Greetings to all!
First of I'd like to say that I DO NOT wish to encourage others to engauge in
the act of 'blood sacrifice.' It is a very powerful deed, one must be FULLY
prepared in many, many ways before venturing down that path. Take heed my
advice & do not commit this act simply to 'try it.' If that is your reasoning
you are not meant to do so. There are a great many bad reasons to sacrifice
in this manner, and but only one valid. While a few may know this(those who
do know whom I mean), I believe many do not. With this in mind do not choose
to commit this type of sacrifice, let the Gods choose it for you.


<< It is only reflective in the fact that most of us do not have the skill,
knowlege, or proper equipment to kill our own food. To do so while a neat
little supermarket is down the street is insane. However, for those who
were
brought up in such arts as hunters and/or butchers and have the means of
doing so, I see nothing fully wrong with doing so as long as the animal is
not meant to suffer.>>

I did mention this in my previous post. The animal being sacrificed is never
meant to suffer any more than is necessary for one to part from the bosom of
life. To sacrifice for the sake of seeing something suffer would not be a
sacrifice, it becomes a cruel act performed with the utmost malice. As for
supermarkets, I sometimes wonder if that is the way we were meant to live. No
one can say nothing that shouldn't happen won't. It is the way of nature (and
hence the Gods) for us to live off the land, tko raise and kill our meat, to
tend our crops, and to gather the harvest. Now I certainly don't live this
way every day of my life as it is impractical in the world I was born into,
but given the choice between the relativly easy life I live and the more
difficult one of the ancients, my choice would indefinatly be the latter. I
don't think that I'm insane, a dreamer yes, but not insane.


I wrote:
When one
sacrifices he is saying to his chosen God ' take this life, this priceless
and irreplaceable life, as a symbol of my devotion. I offer you life, for
you
gave me mine. I offer only to please you, should it be your fancy that the
knife I sacrifice with should turn unto me, I would gladly do so for your
happiness and well being.' It is symbolic of one offering the most valuable
possesion known to man. I believe that we are not offering death to the
gods,
but that very gift which they gave unto us, our life.
Dex wrote:
But this raises the philosophical question...what gives you the right to
offer that life? It is not your life. And to offer a life which was freely
given by the Gods back to the Gods may be construed as an insult, not a
gift.
The only life you have a right to offer is your own. >>

In order to take a life one must be fully prepared to offer his in
return. I do not claim any 'right' to take any life, but I realize that (in
man's earlier days) we were instilled with both the ability and need to take
the life of animals that we saw fit to eat. I believe the Gods gave us this
gift, & we are paying respect to the life that they've given us and also to
the lives they've allowed us to take. One is giving back part of the life he
has taken through sacrifice. Could the Gods construe this as an insult? They
certainly COULD, but this is known to none of us. The only scale one can way
this on is thier own. Have the Gods shown anger or benevolence towards you?
Have they served to guide you through suffering or cast you into it?
Furthermore, the life I have the least amount of respect for is my own. I do
desire to live a long and full life, but should someone or something see fit
to remove me from this 'game of life everyone plays' I am free for the
taking, and would not be upset to go(though I would miss much). Death is a
doorway, not a wall. Therefore, as I stated above should the Gods wish for my
death the knife shall swiftly be turned.

<< For you ask "Can we truly be so vain to
assume that any God would evolve with us?" To this I answer that in nature,
that which does not change (evolve) dies. And I would venture to proclaim
the occult axim "As Above So Below". For if the deities do not evolve with
humanity, then they too will die. >>

Then I ask did nature create the Gods? Are not the Gods unearthly beings,
above and beyond nature? I do believe nature is a part of the Gods, as are
we, but I believe they created both. Can we really assume that the laws that
govern humanity(those of nature that is) would also govern the Gods? Again
I believe this to be vanity on our part,( to explain why I think this would
take far too long to do here.) To think that the Gods could die seems
ridiculous in my mind. It almost seems that you believe our Gods to exist
only in our minds, and that without us there is nothing. I can only say that
I take the first view you stated as truth. As a kindergardner in this school
of life I can't help but believe in eternity. And if the Gods are not eternal
then eternity is quite impossible.

"the young
branch bends in the wind and therefore survives the storm. The rigid branch
stands firm and is broken and dies".

But the tree itself shall always stand rigid through any gale.


<<No one is or will be harrassed. But the official proclamation is that it
is
against our Religio Romana.>>

Is it AGAINST our Religio Romana, or simply not part of it? From the
declaration I am inclined to believe the latter.


<>

You're probably right (I certainly wouldn't) but I never said public worship.
Like I said just a guess.

Under Juppiter's watchful eye,
Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar


By the way, Dexippus, none of my arguements are directed strictly towards
you, as you stated, they are general. Also realize (as we are only typing &
not talking face to face) that I argue with good will in my heart and on my
mind. I don't wish to make any 'enemies' with mere opinions. I enjoy a good
discussion on a variey of topics, & you certainly have differant views than
mine, which makes discussion all the more interesting and fills it with
emotion.

L

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	BenBorgo@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:17:02 EDT

In a message dated 4/16/99 8:38:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> writes:


((Please do not take offense my friend,))
<< Any priest who performs it
SHOULD BE EXPELLED FROM HIS PRIEST OFFICE as a dangerous HERETIC wo puts in
danger the image and success of Nova Roma and the Religio Romana. Religion
must be in accordance with society. In Religion does not answer to society's
demands and reality, it will soon be replaced by another religion. >>

AGAIN, 'blood sacrifice' should MOST DEFINATLY NOT be part of Nova Roma's
public relegion, but be careful where you stray with the word heresy. For it
is a sad day when our 'image' is placed that far above the origins of our
faith. But I do agree that Nova Romanii pontiffs and augers should NOT
partticipate in any form of these acts, but be careful that heresy doesn't
creep into thee when thou criest 'dangerous heretic.'

With all due love and respect,
Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar

Subject:	OT: Links on personal Pages
From:	Megas-Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:31:24 -0500

Avete Omnes and Hailsa Allir,

I have cordial relations with a wide variety persons within and without the
Pagan, Neo-Pagan, Heathen & Retro-Heathen Faith, Religious & Philosophic
Communities.

This includes a pretty friendly, occassional correspondance with members of
some pretty heavy duty Volkish (which term IS different from Folkish, even
counting semantic distinctions) Wotanist (as differed from Odinist, Odian,
Asatru, Skertru, Vanatru, Wiccatru, etc.) organizations and some in the
"fluffy-bunny" Wicca-lite Universalist fringes.

I have a capacity, noted by others before I saw it in myself, to agree to
disagree with persons in the area(s) in which we do differ and to keep our
relationship grounded in the areas in which we agree. In re: some of my
acquaintences believe that direct action is necessary to stem the tide of
non-European Ancestry peoples from washing away all traces of European
peoples. Others believe wholeheartedly that the package the the Mighty Ones
gave your Heart, Soul and Mind matters not in the least. I admit that I am a
bit to the "it matters" side of the spectrum, BUT, I don't let my emotions
over rule my mind when making decision about the worth of someone to me.

Providing a full spectrum of opinion in a links page does not, DOES NOT,
express or imply overt or tacit approval for a particular group's dogma,
especially when accompanied by a well-worded disclaimer. I at one time
subscribed to both "Instauration" and "La Prensa Havana." Which in the logic
of singling out links on a list would make me a
racist-egalitarian-fascist-communist. I think not.

mea sententia - Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator (aka Piparskegg UllRsson
Veithmadur - Asatru Gothi)

Subject:	religious rituals
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:44:23 -0500 (CDT)

On 04/16/99 16:47:45 you wrote:
>
>
>Moreover, the Collegium Pontificum IS THE HEIR OF THE ANCIENT ROMAN
>COLLEGIUM PONTIFICUM. As such it has the authority to RULE HOW WORSHIP IS
>PERFORMED. As such, I consider any violation of its laws as a REBELIOUS
>HERESY.
Blood sacrife was banned in Nova Roma. Any priest who performs it
>SHOULD BE EXPELLED FROM HIS PRIEST OFFICE

As you say, this is all a function of the Pontifex Maximus and the Collegium.
All this acrimonious debate on the list is superficial, and just makes bad feelings. People believe what they
believe, and no amount of arguing is going to change it. Nor should it: they have the right to individual belief. If a
Citizen sacrifices an animal on his/her home altar, I don't see how we can stop them, or would want to.
What NR does in public is irrelevant because we don't do public rituals.

The Collegium has not made any "laws" to date, so it would be hard to violate them.

>WANT OUR GODS TO BE WORSHIPPED WE MUST REFORM THE RELIGIO ROMANA. THE SAME
>REFORM THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SURELY DONE IF THE RELIGIO HAD SURVIVED FOR THE
>LAST 1500 years.

We don't know that it would have been reformed. Most religions that have been changed are now going back
to the original roots because the changes have not been all that effective and in some cases have weakened the
worship.

But keep in mind that we do NOT do public religious rituals, and as a member of the Collegium, I haven't heard
any plans to do so. If I did, I would argue against those plans. The practice of the Religio is not a spectator sport
for the curious, and many public rituals (ostensibly done for "educating the public" and, the gods forgive me, I've
done a few) are no more than performances. Besides, people who are inclined to disapprove of your religion just
figured they didn't see the "real thing" anyway, so their ideas aren't changed much.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: religious rituals
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 04:13:04 EDT

Salvete!
After reading all the posts on blood sacrifices I have the following
observations.

First off sacrifice means just that, going without. My most common sacrifice
is spilling out a 1/4 of my drink on the ground, while uttering a short
prayer. Do I want to finish the drink? You betcha, hence the sacrifice. (I
did this with a coke in front of Ericius at the Convention. To his credit he
said nothing, probably apprehensive I was going to do his drink next.)

Second animal sacrifice becomes irrelevant in today's society. Why? Because
animals no longer represent barter, and if we wring a chicken's neck as a
sacrifice there is always a second chicken to eat.

Third, Temple treasury becomes rather large in classical times. Why? With
food more plentiful, going without was not such a huge sacrifice. Instead
people gave up money.

Fourth I agree with Cassius and Flavia Claudia. If Rome started doing animal
sacrifice once again, people would attend for the spectacle and not the
religion. We might as well be doing performance art for all the significance
our sacrifice would achieve.

I think the gods are pretty tolerant of what we have to work with these days.
After all Olympus has kept humankind under pretty close scrutiny, it's OK
what we offer, just as long as our heart is in the right place.
Valete
Q. Fabius

Subject:	Purists (was Links...)
From:	MaNPaRoman@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:59:43 EDT

In a message dated 99-04-16 23:13:27 EDT, you write:

> I have a capacity, noted by others before I saw it in myself, to agree to
> disagree with persons in the area(s) in which we do differ and to keep our
> relationship grounded in the areas in which we agree. In re: some of my
> acquaintences believe that direct action is necessary to stem the tide of
> non-European Ancestry peoples from washing away all traces of European
> peoples. Others believe wholeheartedly that the package the the Mighty
Ones
> gave your Heart, Soul and Mind matters not in the least. I admit that I am
a
> bit to the "it matters" side of the spectrum, BUT, I don't let my emotions
> over rule my mind when making decision about the worth of someone to me.

My dearest Venator (and the rest of ya too, I guess <G>),

I have known your views for quite some time. Knowing them I am honored
beyond words that you choose to join in friendship with me.

Long ago I made automatic assumptions on all the 'racist' groups out there.
Time and 2 friendships in the last year or so with Asatru peoples has changed
a great many of my thoughts. I also had an assumption or two on others.
Farrakkan is a racist, which I find absolutely laughable as he is as pure a
black man as my beloved Posterious (Lapis) is (most American Blacks are, even
if they don't look mixed). I have met Jews who want to remain pure and so do
not encourage converts. The 'racist' groups call this on the carpet often
and are bashed for it. Is it fair? Hell, no it's not fair -- they're
right!! You can be proud to be a jew and want to keep it 'pure' and you can
be proud to be black and want to keep it pure, but you CANNOT be proud to be
'white'. I think that sucks big time.

What is pure?? I know I cannot answer the question as my family is mixed
with damn near everything this planet has to offer (Black, white, Korean,
Polish, Jewish, German -- the list goes on). Many of the Racists that I have
met have been southern Klansmen who, if they looked into their family tree
may find that a relative somewhere wasn't so white after all <G>.

Is it wrong to be purist?? *I* don't think so. I am friend to more than one
Purist and I am proud to have them as friends. They look at me as an
indivual, not as my race(s). What I do is of little concern to them.

I think I have made enough nonsense for one day.

Crys (as pure as the driven-over-in-a-New-York-street-snow)

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:37:36 EDT

In a message dated 4/16/99 5:59:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=045202250078193194170218163036129208" >jkbloch@--------</a> writ--------br>
Germanicus:
<< The Collegium Pontificum banned blood sacrifice in Nova Roma? When did this
happen?

Cassius:
It hasn't. However, I believe a decision *has* been reached not to include
blood sacrifice in the OFFICIAL rites and practices of the public Religio
Romana. Therefore blood sacrifice will never be a part of any Nova Roma
sponsored event, nor will it be condoned on the Nova Roma website or in any
Nova Roma generated printed materials, etc.

Merullus has brought up an interesting question on this thread. He has
mentioned that no matter what this year he will be raising livestock,
butchering it and feeding his family from the meat. (I myself grew up in farm
country folks... this sort of thing happens all the time where people have
the room to do it!) This is purely a personal situation in which Nova Roma
has no right to intrude itself. If, since he will be ending the lives of
animals for a purely practical purpose anyway, should he add a spiritual
aspect to the whole process? I'm personally not going to judge, and truly, I
don't even want to know. The matter is between him and the gods, just as
*all* personal, non public rites are.


Germanicus:
>I would also remind our esteemed Propraetor of the following quote:

>"We further affirm that rites and worship within the Roman Pagan may be
approached in many ways. In this manner the spiritual needs of all
practicing individuals may be fulfilled. These various approaches may
include group or individual worship, philosophical practice focusing on
prayer and contemplation, purely historical reconstruction of ancient ritual
form, as well as forms of modern rites and worship that adapt ancient
practices and ideals." (From the "Declaration of Roman Paganism"; one of
Nova Roma's founding documents.)

Cassius:
How can I not agree with this thing, since I wrote it? ;) Seriously, it IS
true that Nova Roma is merely trying to revive the public practice of the
Religio Romana, not cast some new sort of fundamentalist dogma in stone. The
ancient Roman religious world was *very* diverse, and nobody got too upset
over it.

Germanicus:
>I think the last thing we want to do is to go throwing around words like
"dangerous heretic". If we can't be tolerant of our co-religionists with
whose practices we disagree, how can we possibly be tolerant of followers of
other faiths?

Cassius:
My guess is that Graecus was thinking of all the possible repercussions that
would take place if Nova Roma were to publicly condone and worse yet promote
animal sacrifice. It would be a public relations nightmare; it would turn
MANY people away from the Religio, and certainly doom our attempt to revive
it. It is *very* tempting to take a hard line on this issue just to protect
the Religio from a firestorm of negative opinion. Still, the distinction that
Nova Roma has placed on the difference between PUBLIC and PRIVATE religion
serves us well here I think. We can make certain that blood sacrifice will
never be a part of the official Religio Romana rites of Nova Roma or in the
personal rites we offer to Citizens, or even condoned on an official basis,
and that is enough.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

Subject:	Re: Purists (was Links...)
From:	MaNPaRoman@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:11:29 EDT

In a message dated 99-04-17 10:22:19 EDT, you write:

> ok, so you go look at the link on Germanicus' site that ticked me off and
> THEN
> tell me about purists....
> Just because someone takes pride in their culture and it's accomplishments
> does't
> ever excuse bigotry, or bogus rationaizations for it.
>
> Pythia, (probably alienating everybody.....)

OK, I looked. Is this what you were alluding to?

<><><><><><><><><>
What is Allgermanische Heidnische Front?
We strive to free Europe from alien powers, influences and doctrines.
We fight for European, and primary Germanic culture, spirituality and view
of life.
We will reintroduce our pre-christian values, these will in renewed form
lead our
people into the future.
We shall permanently clean our soil from the judeo/christian plague, we
will and
MUST see that this is done, and this to any price.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

People have been trying to get rid of the 'judeo/christian plague' for
flippin ever!!! They obviously aren't much good at it. I have never heard
of these people.

I suppose (and NO I didn't spend much more time on the site than I had to) I
would want to ask (and probably ask Germanicus) what exactly do they mean by
'clean' and by 'any price'? Now Malcom X said basically the same thing, just
used more words ('by any means necessary') and what he meant by that was that
his people had a basic right to self defense. White folks didn't want black
folks running around with guns. Course Malcom X then took the haj to Mecca
and came back knowing the truth 'about racism' (I ain't tellin ya what it is
if you can't figger it out <G>). Got him killed. BUT the white man didn't
kill him -- the black man did (yea, I got my own theory but will save it for
Hollywood).

Pythia hon, I don't agree with the page either. I never did like Germanicus,
but that has nothing to do with what his views or his stands or anything. I
just never liked the man. HOWEVER, the man does have a right to put upon his
page whatever the hell he wants to, whether you and I like it or not.

If your worried, be ready to defend yourself 'by any means necessary'.
Frankly, these people seem to have the same sort of strength as the rest of
the 'hate groups' (and I wouldn't go so far as to call them that) which is
damn near nothing. They talk and talk and build web pages and get attention
and do NOTHING.

Remember my dear -- WE are not the minority -- THEY are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crys X

Subject:	Re: Purists (was Links...)
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:00:01 EDT

In a message dated 4/17/99 10:22:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200176234108158116015132190036129" >kingan@--------</a>
writes:

> ok, so you go look at the link on Germanicus' site that ticked me off and
> THEN
> tell me about purists....
> Just because someone takes pride in their culture and it's accomplishments
> does't
> ever excuse bigotry, or bogus rationaizations for it.
>
> Pythia, (probably alienating everybody.....)

Well, your addendum to your sig *does* make a good point. I would inquire as
to why a links page of another orbanization is of ANY business to the Nova
Roma list. I would inquire why one link on a page comprised over over 200
*happened * to catch your eye. I would inquire as to why, precisely, you
felt the need to basically visit someone's NON NR site and run back here to
*report* your objection to a group that has ZERO affiliation with the other
group.

This is tantamount to my driving by your home, noting soda cans in your
garbage and posting publicly.."hey guys..oh my gods but did you know that
Pythia doesn't recycle??" As a rather *green* person myself, this would be
*offensive* to me and I could sure post away about your apparent lack of
concern for the planet blah blah blah.

Pretty pointless post that would be eh? Most especially due to it's
absoliute lack of relevance to Nova Roma. In point of fact, all it could
accomplish is a public statement on my part that I have a problem with you
and/or your private tasks. Pretty pointles for this list. Almost as
pointles as your post regarding the links page.

I'll bottom line it for ya Pythia. If, indeed, you had a relevant PERSONAL
concern about Germanicus' links......you would have done better to contact
him. But no, you chose to make an issue of it here. LOL Public posting with
no attempt at private contact is not concern honey......it is grandstanding.

Priscilla Vedia Serena

Subject:	Re: religious rituals
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:20:38 -0400

Salvete Omnes

>>Moreover, the Collegium Pontificum IS THE HEIR OF THE ANCIENT ROMAN
>>COLLEGIUM PONTIFICUM. As such it has the authority to RULE HOW WORSHIP IS
>>PERFORMED. As such, I consider any violation of its laws as a REBELIOUS
>>HERESY.
>Blood sacrife was banned in Nova Roma. Any priest who performs it
>>SHOULD BE EXPELLED FROM HIS PRIEST OFFICE
>
>As you say, this is all a function of the Pontifex Maximus and the
Collegium.
>All this acrimonious debate on the list is superficial, and just makes bad
feelings. >People believe what they believe,

<Homines quod volunt credunt>

>What NR does in public is irrelevant because we don't do public rituals.
>
>The Collegium has not made any "laws" to date, so it would be hard to
violate them.
>
>>WANT OUR GODS TO BE WORSHIPPED WE MUST REFORM THE RELIGIO ROMANA. THE SAME
>>REFORM THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SURELY DONE IF THE RELIGIO HAD SURVIVED FOR
THE
>>LAST 1500 years.
>
>We don't know that it would have been reformed. Most religions that have
been changed are now going back to the original roots because the changes
have not been all that effective and in some cases have weakened the
worship.
>
>But keep in mind that we do NOT do public religious rituals, and as a
member of the Collegium, <snip>-- Flavia Claudia


Lucius Equitius; Ita est!
>>This is the part that really bothers me...
>>"As such, I consider any violation of its laws as a REBELIOUS
>>HERESY."

As for "Laws", I've never seen any laws passed. Where are they Posted?? Who
voted on them? When was this voted on?
One would think the Flamen Martialis would know about this, huh?
(Let alone a Senator and Consul)

Everyone has their own opinion and everyone seems to think that they are the
ones with the answers. Maybe this is why religious observances are private
and personal decisions.

Personally, the other day was the first time I ever heard that the Religio
Romana would not have sacrifice in the way of the Romans. Even though we are
in no way able (At The Present Time) to do any such things, to forbid
sacrifice forever flies in the face of why Nova Roma was begun. It is stated
that ...
"As the spiritual heir to the Republic of ancient Rome, Nova Roma shall
endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the modern
restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and
society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."
The Supreme Court of the United States in the case of 'Church of
the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc., et al, v. City of Hialeah. decided June 11,
1993' in favor of the employment of animal sacrifice. So, after having
gotten the
proper permits, sacrifice is permissible in the US.

Having said this, I in no way think that Nova Roma rites should be
Public events, spectacles for Joe Public to condemn. Sacrifices are NOT
spectacles for you or me or Joe Public, sacrifices are for the Gods. The
feasts afterwards are for people!
Now, My opinion is that if you eat ANY animal matter (veggie or
whatever) you are participating in the taking of life. Deal with it!

Vale, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Flamen Martialis

Subject:	SW Provincial Get-Together! (was: Texans)
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:09:17 -0500 (CDT)

Gooooooooood Morning, Nova Roma!!!

This was posted to the Bulletin Board on 28 Feb (pridie Kalendas
Martiis); I'm reposting it here, since the subject came up on the List:

************** SOUTHWEST PROVINCIAL GATHERING ***************

Salvete, omnes...

I've been in touch with some of my fellow Nova Romano-Texans, and it's
looking like we may be able to bring this off this year:
We are planning to Establish a Roman Presence at the Hawkwood Medieval
Fantasy Festival north of Ft. Worth this year.  The Festival runs
roughly from mid-August to end of September and is located in Hawkwood
Forest, one of the few cool and shady spots in North Texas at that time
of year.  Admission last year was in the $10-$12 range.  It's not
exactly a historical event (you can expect to see fairies and a dragon
or two), but it's a lot of fun...especially if you come prepared with a
good 'character story' and are willing to play along with the cast.
 (My Legionary persona, Lucius, stepped through a fairy circle and is
now trying to find his way back to Roman times...)

At least four Nova Romans from Texas are planning to be there--myself,
Marius Asiaticus, Titus Labienus, and Aurelius Alastrus (my friend
Michael Christy, who has run a crafts booth at the Texas Renaissance
Festival for over 15 years; he's not a Citizen yet, but he's thinking
about it really hard!).  I will bring Nova Roma materials, as we are
sure to excite a lot of comment!

If any other Nova Romans live within range and are interested in
attending, wire me and I will keep you posted as things develop.

Vivat Nova Roma!  ROMA RESURGENS!!

-- L Marius Fimbria, Tribunus Militum

P.S.  You do not have to come as a soldier; I hope to see more than a
few Civilians; Roman garb preferred, if you can get it, but not
mandatory.  The important part is the chance to meet face-to-face!
============================================================
---
__________ _<~) __________
<-\\\\@@@@@) /##\ (@@@@@////-> Märia Villarroel <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
<-\\\@@@@(#####@@@@///-> Historical Re-Creationist
<-\\\*##*///-> and Citizen of Rome
o---<<<<||SPQR||>>>>---o Latin lessons, History lectures
///\\\ Role-playing Games, too!

aka Lucius Marius Fimbria on the weekends

Subject:	Mars Closest Approach
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:21:18 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete, omnes.

On the VIII Kal Maius (24 April), Mars will make his closest approach to
Earth for the next two years. This should be a particularly auspicious time
to offer prayers to Mars.

Valete,

Marcus Martianus Gangalius
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm</a>
Mars Society California
The Martian Time Web Site
The Martian Ministry of Culture
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too)
The National Primary System
World GenWeb Calabria

Subject:	Re: Purists (was Links...)
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:25:59 EDT

In a message dated 4/17/99 2:08:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200176234108158116015132190036129" >kingan@--------</a>
writes:

> As I said, Serena...it *is* the second link on the list, afterall.....
>
> Pythia

Yes, that part does make sense to me. I looked back at the links page and
saw as much as well. That does not, however, answer the larger point of my
post which was......why go to the list and not the person directly you took
issue with? I still find that intriguing and stand by the points I made in
my original post.

I am also more than willing to take *this* private as the entire issue should
have been in the first place.

Priscilla Vedia Serena

Subject:	Re: Purists
From:	heckifiknow@--------)
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:19:55 +0200

Salve,


First, I think we should discuss (nearly) everything in public, for we
try to reestablish old roman ways and life toke place on the forum(
i.e.in the public) in ancient times.
Second, what does it mean to be proud of ones origin? As a German I have
great problems talking of pride in ones race and keeping it "pure" .
This leads ALWAYS into big troubles. The Gods made us the way we are,
black, white, red, big-nosed, short, bright, dull. It happened all by
chance. And you can only be proud of something that you have achieved
for yourself and by yourself. I know that you Americans have other
feelings. but it is just a matter of fate wether you were born a plebian
or a patrician.What gives you auctoritas and a good reputation is not
what you are but who you are, your deeds and your character.
The problem really is that stuborness is not a matter of race ,there are
as many black or yellow racists as there white ones, but of too short a
point of view to see the truth.
I pray let us be proud of what we are doing in reestablishing rome and
not of our race.


P.S one thing about purism: Nothing is ever pure or keeps that way. Rome
was what it was because it evolved and integrated foreign structures
throughout its history. For example most political institutions are
borroughed from the etruscans, literature was influenced by greece,
roman philosophy would not exist if it were not for geek philosophers,
the military took the gladius from the iberians and the ancient tactiocs
from greece etc.etc.
I think that makes up a very diverse object, and where is purity ?




Vale

Lucius Metellus

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:51:50 EDT

In a message dated 4/16/99 9:39:18 PM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200176234108158116015132190036129" >kingan@--------</a> writes:

<< I have to say, anything with "Front" in it's name
should be a dead giveaway to it's nature, and if this is not a violent site
than
I am Jesus. >>

I would have to agree with Pythia here and question the reasons for such
links on our Senator's page.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:54:20 EDT

In a m--------g--------t--------/16/99 10:18:58 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=045202250078193194170218163036129208" >jkbloch@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< So, despite what Pythia is trying to insinuate, I don't advocate anything
on
that particular web site. I can't however, justify _not_ including it merely
because it's offensive, especially since the whole point of my Asatru links
page is to be complete. Part of being tolerant is being tolerant even of
those who are intolerant. >>

well...it's your site so you have final say. But there is a difference
between tolerance and acceptance. You can be tolerant and refuse to link to
their sites.

--Dexippus
just playing advocate here...don't know much about Asatru and from what I've
seen of it, don't want to (no offence).

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:57:22 EDT

In a message dated 4/16/99 10:51:57 PM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200176234108158116015132190036129" >kingan@--------</a> writes:

<< You don't think "Kill for Wotan" is not advocating something illegal? >>

hmmm...good point.

<>

I believe there is a saying referring to the Nazi Holocaust: "first they
came for the jews...I did nothing. Then they came for the homosexuals...I
did nothing. Then they came for the foreigners...I did nothing. And then
they came for me!"

Perhaps being "tolerant of intolerance" is what many a good-german did during
those times...and look where it lead.

--Dexippus
<<STOP THE HATE!>>

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:06:02 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/16/99 11:09:27 PM EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------; writes:

<< Then I ask did nature create the Gods? Are not the Gods unearthly beings,
above and beyond nature? I do believe nature is a part of the Gods, as are
we, but I believe they created both. >>

I don't believe the Gods to be apart from nature..but a part of it. They are
natural beings...not un-natural or even supernatural. For even the Classics
read that Gaia (Earth) is the mother of the Gods. The Gods (IMHO) are bound
to the same natural law as we...all is part of nature.

<<It almost seems that you believe our Gods to exist
only in our minds, and that without us there is nothing.>>

No...not only in our minds...but worship is what feeds a god. When the
worship of a particular deity ceases, that deity grows weak and continues to
do so until he/she is lost in the world of the forgotten. Eternally dead?
No...they can be revived through restored worship...much like what we are
doing here with the Religio Romana...but a type of death none the less.
Again...my belief...

<<By the way, Dexippus, none of my arguements are directed strictly towards
you, as you stated, they are general. Also realize (as we are only typing &
not talking face to face) that I argue with good will in my heart and on my
mind. I don't wish to make any 'enemies' with mere opinions. I enjoy a good
discussion on a variey of topics, & you certainly have differant views than
mine, which makes discussion all the more interesting and fills it with
emotion.>>

Oh of course! No ruffled feathers here. We're all talking about personal
beliefs and different ideologies. They all have merit. : )

Pax!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:07:03 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/16/99 11:17:53 PM EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------; writes:

<< But I do agree that Nova Romanii pontiffs and augers should NOT
partticipate in any form of these acts, but be careful that heresy doesn't
creep into thee when thou criest 'dangerous heretic.' >>

Of course Toddler Soup doesn't count as blood sacrifice. : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: religious rituals
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:11:33 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/17/99 3:13:43 AM EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------; writes:

<< animal sacrifice becomes irrelevant in today's society. Why? Because
animals no longer represent barter, and if we wring a chicken's neck as a
sacrifice there is always a second chicken to eat. >>

hmmmm...Good Point! : )

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Purists (was Links...)
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:13:33 EDT

In a message dated 4/17/99 3:01:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200176234108158116015132190036129" >kingan@--------</a>
writes:

> I did it because I regard it as a serious lapse of judgement, and I felt it
> was
> important.
>

Important to who and for what reason? *You* had an issue with a private page
someone maintains that has no relation to Nova Roma. And I still maintain
that your choice to voice the issue here, and the choice to never contact the
person directly, had no relation to any personal concern you felt. It smacks
more of "ooooh look at what so-and-so is doing" than any desire to really
discuss things. And that, as I stated previously, is not concern but
grandstanding.

If you were hoping to stir the list up into "oh my gods look at what that
page has" I am very grateful that you have failed. The citizens of Nova Roma
have again shown their dignitas by recognizing that while some may or may not
agree with every link on that page, Germanicus has every right to publish it
as a NON Nova Roma page.

Your personal feelings on it would be better served by discussing it with
him. After all, if your concerns are genuine, the only person who could even
consider changing the links page is the webmaster, and that is the one person
you did not contact.

I have to say here, we are a vastly diverse community in Nova Roma. About
the only thing we DO have in common is a love of things Roman. From there on
out we have a tremendous range of lifestyles and interests. If I were to go
through your personal life (or you mine) I am sure we would find things to
disagree over. Why go there?

This is Nova Roma. Issues, concerns and discussions not related should
remain in the private sector between or among the individuals involved. Any
other attempts to stir things up here and cause dissent are not succeeding
and are a waste of bandwidth.

Priscilla Vedia Serena

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:17:11 EDT

In a message dated 4/17/99 12:58:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; writes:

> I would have to agree with Pythia here and question the reasons for such
> links on our Senator's page.
>
> --Dexippus
>

I will state again, as well, that if it is not related to Nova Roma, why is
it an issue? I give you the example of the range of interests and lifestyles
here in Nova Roma. Many the fight would ensue if we all attempted to agree
on outside interests, values, religions and lifestyles.

We have had this discussion before. Outside of Nova Roma we live our own
lives and as long as all herein respect each other and their various interest
etc. we have no problem. Why try and create one? Especially when we have so
many other more interesting and important things to think about?

Priscilla Vedia Serena

Subject:	Re: Purists (was Links...)
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:00:42 -0500 (CDT)

I think it would be well worth it if we all just dropped this
topic because (1) It accomplishes absolutely nothing (2) It is a
Non-Nova Roma Page and (3) I hope that in non-Nova Roma activities we as
citizens are free to do as we wish without the thought police and trying
to rally the citizen body against any activity in someones private life.

I do not endorse any sort of neo-Nazism or other extremism left
or right and would find it alienating to see that sort of thing on our
Nova Roma literature and websight however I recognize other citizens
rights to do and act as they wish as long as Nova Roma is not involved.
If Germanicus wishes to keep that link on his sight let's leave him
alone publicly and leave this to private e-mail discussions as it has
nothing to do with Nova Roma.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Masada
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:12:03 -0400 (EDT)

Hmmmmmm! Pretty serious talk here on the old network in the last few
days. Strong stuff, but out of my realm, I am afraid, as an ignorant
soldier!!

I wanted to share a book that I just received from the History Book
Club,

Masada; Herod's Fortress and the Zealot's Last Stand, Yigael Yadin,
(Welcome Rain-1998-N.Y.)

It is a beautiful book, paper bound, 272 Pages, and full of pictures,
diagrams (both black and white and colored). The book is very well done
and is a basic description of the archaelogical digs and resoration of
Masada undertaken in the last few years. The beauty and majesty of
Herods Palace come through clearly in the rich colored plates of the
mozaic floors, as well as the frescoes and wall paintings that are being
and have been restored.

The book retails for $22.95 and it is available through the History Book
Club as a dividend for $11.00.

I have skimmed the book and read some sections, but I intend to read
every word, and reproduce some of the materials for my collection.
Having said that, I recommend it highly for those of you having an
interest in Roman Fortification and Architechture.

Marcus Minucius Audens.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Religious Rituals (was: No Blood?)
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:37:12 EDT

In a message dated 4/17/99 12:20:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Lucius Equitius
Cincinnatus (<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>) writ--------br>
Graecus:
>>This is the part that really bothers me...
>>"As such, I consider any violation of its laws as a REBELIOUS
>>HERESY."

Cincinnatus:
>As for "Laws", I've never seen any laws passed. Where are they Posted?? Who
voted on them? When was this voted on?
One would think the Flamen Martialis would know about this, huh?
(Let alone a Senator and Consul)

Cassius:
There are in fact no laws or rules in the documentation of Nova Roma strictly
forbidding animal sacrifice. It honestly wasn't considered necessary. At that
time, the only advocate for live sacrifice as part of a revived Religio
Romana was the author of a document called "The Sacrificial Knife," available
on the Omphalos web site, (<a href="http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/OM/" target="_top" >http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/OM/</a> ). This Sulla
(Not OUR Sulla!) not only proclaims that live sacrifice is critical to the
practice of Roman religion, but also seriously maintains that the world is
flat. ;)

Aside from this one fellow, however, every known practitioner of the Religio
Romana was violently against the revival of sacrifice. Even the MTR in Italy,
the most conservative revivalist Roman group in the world, considers modern
blood sacrifice to be "nefas."

The topic was discussed very early in Nova Roma's history, before Lucius
Equitius Cincinnatus was Senator, Consul, or Flamen Martialis. The
Pontificial College was unanimous that all public manifestations of the
Religio Romana would be better off without animal sacrifice. If this now must
be documented officially to satisfy all parties, I'll happily convene the
Pontificial College and see that it gets put to a vote. Lucius Equitius will
be given every chance to present his ideas fully there.

Cincinnatus:
>Everyone has their own opinion and everyone seems to think that they are the
ones with the answers. Maybe this is why religious observances are private
and personal decisions.

Cassius:
Everyone must make their own decisions on pretty much all religious matters.
Yet, while all *decisions* are personal, not all religious observances are
private. Nova Roma couldn't care less what people do in personal religion -
public observances are another matter. And by public I refer not to
gatherings where non-Romans are in attendance as spectators... but any
"official" gathering which is publicly posted as a Nova Roman event.

Cincinnatus:
>Personally, the other day was the first time I ever heard that the Religio
Romana would not have sacrifice in the way of the Romans. Even though we are
in no way able (At The Present Time) to do any such things, to forbid
sacrifice forever flies in the face of why Nova Roma was begun. It is stated
that ...

Cassius:
The idea that forbidding blood sacrifice as part of Nova Roman rites 'flies
forever in the face of why Nova Roma was begun' is strictly your own
interpretation, I'm afraid.

Cincinnatus:
"As the spiritual heir to the Republic of ancient Rome, Nova Roma shall
endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the modern
restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and
society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

Cassius:
I think "all manners practical and acceptable" covers the topic of blood
sacrifice quite completely, myself. Blood sacrifice would be "unpractical"
for the vast majority of us as individuals... and to espouse blood sacrifice
throughout Nova Roma on the web site, flyers, etc. would surely gain us
nothing but contempt. I did, and still do, consider that unacceptable.

Cincinnatus:
> The Supreme Court of the United States in the case of 'Church of
the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc., et al, v. City of Hialeah. decided June 11,
1993' in favor of the employment of animal sacrifice. So, after having
gotten the proper permits, sacrifice is permissible in the US.

Cassius:
Yes, after years in court, the religion of Santeria won this landmark case.
However, just because something becomes possible under certain circumstances
doesn't mean that it is desirable.

Cincinnatus:
> Having said this, I in no way think that Nova Roma rites should be
Public events, spectacles for Joe Public to condemn. Sacrifices are NOT
spectacles for you or me or Joe Public, sacrifices are for the Gods. The
feasts afterwards are for people!

Cassius:
This seems to say that it would be fine for Nova Roma to hold gatherings in
which animal sacrifice would be included, so long as the killing of the
animals was done in private by the priesthood away from public eye. I
personally do not agree. As Pontifex Maximus I will fight strongly against
ANY such official approval and inclusion of sacrifice. My opinion is that it
would lead the vast majority of the world to turn away from the Religio
Romana in disgust.

Cincinnatus:
> Now, My opinion is that if you eat ANY animal matter (veggie or
whatever) you are participating in the taking of life. Deal with it!

Cassius:
I'm not certain that the issue here is simply the lives of animals, though
that would surely be a focus of public outrage against us if we did
officially include blood sacrifice within Nova Roma.

The real issue is whether or not blood sacrifice is desirable, or even
necessary within the Religio Romana. There were MANY other historically
acceptible offerings to the gods besides animal sacrifice. Traditional Roman
worship is easily accomplished without its inclusion into the rites.

When Nova Roma was founded, the intent was clear: We wanted to restore the
best aspects of the ancient Roman world as far as is practical. That intent,
expressed through our Web site and in our founding documents, meant leaving
out some practices of Roman history that were widespread and accepted in the
ancient world. We opted not to revive slavery, for instance, nor did we wish
to reinstate the practice of killing Vestals who were not chaste. We opted
not to persecute the Christian sect, and to admit women to full and
independent Citizenship with rights equal to those of men.

Animal sacrifice was another of the practices we judged to be inappropriate
in the modern world. With all respect for the right of Cincinnatus or any
other Citizen to do as he likes in his private worship, my sincere hope is
that it will not become a part of Nova Roma in any organized way.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifiex Maximus

Subject:	Re: religious rituals
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:01:15 PDT

Salvete Quirites,


>From: "Lucius" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>

>Personally, the other day was the first time I ever heard that the
Religio
>Romana would not have sacrifice in the way of the Romans. Even
though we are
>in no way able (At The Present Time) to do any such things, to
forbid
>sacrifice forever flies in the face of why Nova Roma was begun. It
is stated
>that ...
>"As the spiritual heir to the Republic of ancient Rome, Nova Roma
shall
>endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the
modern
>restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion,
and
>society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."
> The Supreme Court of the United States in the case of 'Church
of
>the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc., et al, v. City of Hialeah. decided June
11,
>1993' in favor of the employment of animal sacrifice. So, after
having
>gotten the
>proper permits, sacrifice is permissible in the US.
>
> Having said this, I in no way think that Nova Roma rites should
be
>Public events, spectacles for Joe Public to condemn. Sacrifices are
NOT
>spectacles for you or me or Joe Public, sacrifices are for the Gods.
The
>feasts afterwards are for people!

Well said. It has never been common practice in any religion to allow
non-participant spectators (I'm not talking about people who happen
to be watching part of the action, but those who have no
emotional/spiritual involvement in the rites) to gather when
performing holy offices to the Gods. There may be large crowds
gathered, but they were all of the religion in question and all
participating in the holy rites through this investment of their
beliefs. It is not for the unwashed (so to speak) to participate in
these most holy rites. Would you invite your neighbors in to watch
you perform a personal ritual in your home if they were not of your
religion? This is no different.
> Now, My opinion is that if you eat ANY animal matter (veggie or
>whatever) you are participating in the taking of life. Deal with it!
>
I agree completely. Death is part of life. Your immune system is
constantly killing microscopic lifeforms that you might not be
diseased. The home in which you live most likely involved the deaths
of many trees. Even if you are a card-carrying vegan, which I was for
a few years, your food still has to be harvested. Admittedly not
every plant has to die for it to be harvested, but any grain does.
Root vegetables do too. They way to deal with these deaths is with
thoughtfulness and reverence and appreciation. One day, you too shall
be dust. Go back to the circle and let life carry on from you.

Valete,

Lucina Iunia Cypria

>Vale, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Flamen Martialis
>
>
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Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:27:17 PDT

Salvete Omnes

I have to agree with Serena on this. We may or may not like what
someone has on their homepage, but if it is NOT a NovaRoma page, then
it's a personal matter between yourself and the webmaster in
question, and not a matter for the NovaRomani.

That's all I will say on the matter. Now will everyone please drop
it?

Valete,

Lucina Iunia Cypria

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Hiatus.
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:18:52 -0700

Salvete!

I shall be gone for two weeks starting this die Lunae (Monday). I have placed
my List subscription on digest. I will be checking in until I actually take
off. I guess that covers it. Hold the Castra!

Valete!
C. Aelius Ericius
Propraetor ad Californiam Provinciam
Pontiff
Paterfamilias genti Aeliae

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:08:46 EDT

In a message dated 4/17/99 6:54:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200176234108158116015132190036129" >kingan@--------</a>
writes:

> So the fact that he is a Senator doesn't come into it?
>
> Pythia
>

No Pythia, in this case it does not. Unless of course, you are calling for
all persons holding public office to be held to *your* (or ANY one member's)
standards. And that is a Nova Roma I would want no part of.

Try this Pythia.......if you are genuinly concerned, contact Germanicus. If
it is not woth *that* much effort to you....be quiet already.

Priscilla Vedia Serena

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	MaNPaRoman@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:59:17 EDT

In a message dated 99-04-17 19:29:32 EDT, you write:

> Try this Pythia.......if you are genuinly concerned, contact Germanicus.
> If
> it is not woth *that* much effort to you....be quiet already.
>
> Priscilla Vedia Serena


Why contact Germanicus? His wife does all the talking for him.

Crys (X-files-type-theory = Germanicus' wife IS Germanicus)

Subject:	Game Room
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:13:09 -0700

Salve,

Here is the new addy for the Games that will be held. This is the
official room, titled and everything. That will be specifically for the
games. I hope everyone enjoys it. Vale! :)

<a href="http://venus.beseen.com/chat/rooms/u/440638" target="_top" >http://venus.beseen.com/chat/rooms/u/440638</a>

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus

Subject:	Re: Crys is gonna get it!
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:06:35 -0500 (CDT)

On 04/17/99 19:59:17 Crys wrote:

>Why contact Germanicus? His wife does all the talking for him.
>
>Crys (X-files-type-theory = Germanicus' wife IS Germanicus)

Oooooh, girl! you are in SOME trouble now!

-- Claudia

Subject:	Re: Crys is gonna get it!
From:	MaNPaRoman@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:10:44 EDT

In a message dated 99-04-17 21:06:52 EDT, you write:

> Oooooh, girl! you are in SOME trouble now!
>
> -- Claudia

So what else is new??

Crys (shakin in her caligae)

Subject:	Re: Purists
From:	"Nathan Hicks" moman@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:42:21 -0400

-----Original Message-----
From: Pythia <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200176234108158116015132190036129" >kingan@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Saturday, April 17, 1999 3:58 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Purists


>From: Pythia <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200176234108158116015132190036129" >kingan@--------</a>
>
>
>
>Pascal Thiele wrote:
>
&g----------------rom: &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=180056219163082131036067066024166165018048139046" &g--------ckifiknow@--------&l--------&g--------Pascal Thiele) >>
>> Salve,
>>
>> First, I think we should discuss (nearly) everything in public, for we
>> try to reestablish old roman ways and life toke place on the forum(
>> i.e.in the public) in ancient times.
>> Second, what does it mean to be proud of ones origin? As a German I have
>> great problems talking of pride in ones race and keeping it "pure" .
>> This leads ALWAYS into big troubles. The Gods made us the way we are,
>> black, white, red, big-nosed, short, bright, dull.

I support the right of an individual to hate whomever he is pleased to hate.
I do myself have somewhat a disliking for big-nosed people...

If Germanicus wishes to hate non-germanic people, I think he ought to be
given such a right until he decides to bake one of us--that crosses the
line.


Rusticus

Subject:	Re: No blood? was Re: What's in a Name?
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:06:49 EDT

In a message dated 4/17/99 8:00:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------; writes:

> Why contact Germanicus? His wife does all the talking for him.
>
> Crys (X-files-type-theory = Germanicus' wife IS Germanicus)
>

Okay.....::removing gloves:: excuse me???? This is among the most asanine
posts I have ever had the displeasure to witness on this list!

Let me say this nice and slowly for you "Crys".
1) she should have contacted Germanicus because it HIS links page she
supposedly has such a *problem* with
2) rather than state asanine "television show related" theories...try talking
to me. I assure you there is QUITE a difference between myself and my
husband.

If *you* have a problem with Germanicus not posting on this issue today
consider the following......1) he has been out of the house since 4pm at an
event and 2) he likely is as sick of drivel such as you just posted as I am.

Which brings us once again to my main point...why exactly is this relevant to
Nova Roma? ::scratching head:: Oh, that's right.....it isn't. LOL Take
some advice honey...cease the attempts at divisiveness and move
along.......right now all you are doing is wasting everyone's time.

Priscilla Serena Vedia

Oh.and Crys honey.....I suggest ya try e-mailing me direct. Would have been
best in Pyhtia's case and sure as heck would be in yours. ::shaking head::

Subject:	Re: Crys is gonna get it!
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:07:52 EDT

In a message dated 4/17/99 9:06:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029176066112038190112158203026129208071" >m--------oon@--------</a> wr--------:

> >Why contact Germanicus? His wife does all the talking for him.
> >
> >Crys (X-files-type-theory = Germanicus' wife IS Germanicus)
>
> Oooooh, girl! you are in SOME trouble now!
>
> -- Claudia

Helpful Claudia.....LOL real helpful! ::shaking head::

Priscilla Vedia Serena

Subject:	Re: Purists
From:
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:15:25 EDT

In a message da--------4/17/99 10:45:11 PM Eas-------- Dayligh--------me, &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=029233014237078135050082190036" &g--------man@--------&l--------&g--------br> writes:

> If Germanicus wishes to hate non-germanic people, I think he ought to be
> given such a right until he decides to bake one of us--that crosses the

Hello?? Rather than give vent to an argument that has no merit...try going
back and reading all of the posts. Germanicus has a link (ONE of over 200)
on a private website that Pythia found issue with.

If from that you get that Germanicus has some hate-fest going....LOL Sorry
but you have just bought stock in the "Pythia wants to start trouble"
campaign. Hope your dividends work out for you!

Priscilla Vedia Serena

Subject:	Re: BTW (on a positive note)
From:
Date:	Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:14:15 -0700

Congrats on your third award! :) Now when will the fourth one be coming? ;)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------; wrote:

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=174166082206158174112154175101114253071048139" >M--------Rom--------...</--------;
>
> Salve,
>
> I got so busy updating the website I forgot to post that the site has won yet
> a third award. And it is basically done (well, as done as these things get
> for me -- which means I'm still working my arse off on it).
>
> Crys (3 time award winner -- I always wanted to say that)
>
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