Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: FoxNews
From:	Thomas Gangale TGangale@--------
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:32:26 -0700

Salve, Bill.

>>What Cypria has brought to our attention is a grave matter indeed.
>It is a
>>serious attack on the Roman Religion, the Roman People, and the Roman
>State,
>>and it cries out for action. However, I believe that it would be
>>counterproductive for us to react angrily, for this would only
>confirm the
>>misguided in their belief that we are dangerous. Now, please do not
>>misconstrue this statement, for I do not mean to imply that this is
>what
>>Cypria had in mind. Rather, I have something in mind that I believe
>will
>>well serve our purpose.
>>
>>The one sure way to extingush darkness is with light. If Christians
>would
>>blame pagans, then let us then show them that we too can turn the
>other
>>cheek, that we too can love our neighbors although they may believe
>>differently from us. Perhaps then, if there is any wisdom within
>them, they
>>will pause wonder why they are troubled by the splinter in their
>neighbor's
>>eye when they have a timber in their own!
>
>
>This is a noble idea indeed...and indeed, the moral high road would be
>the best plan, if the opposition were not hypocritical by nature.
>Remember that these Christians who supposedly "shalt not kill", are
>the same ones blowing up abortion clinics and killing persons not of
>their religion simply because of their views...the same Christians
>killing other Christians in indiscriminate attacks on these clinics,
>the same ones driving non-christians out of their communitites for
>being different, despite being exhorted by Jesus to "Love thy neighbor
>"...
>
GANGALIUS:
And what do you propose? That because they fall so dismally short of their
moral code, we should fall equally short of ours? "...the moral high road
would be the best plan, if...." No, the moral high road IS the best plan,
period. In all things, let us compare favorably to them, if only for the
sake of our own souls, else what do we achieve, and why?

>All this, of course, leaves out the historical facts of the Crusades,
>the Burning Times, and even the Holocaust, which both the Vatican,
>(who assisted many a war criminal with exit from Germany) as well as
>many Christian churches in Germany that tacitly supported the pogrom
>there.
>
GANGALIUS:
Sun Tzu said: "Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you
will never be in peril."

>Thinking like this, unfortunately, leads to dangerous idealism that
>your enemy thinks like yourself...and sadly, many a Christian relies
>on this for their own ends...that their enemies will hold them to a
>standard which they do not hold themselves...and will change to suit
>whatever aims they have...
>
GANGALIUS:
It is best to extend an open hand whenever we can, but also be prepared to
wield the mailed fist whenever we must. Thus we may both prosper during
peace and overcome during war. This is not idealism, this is sound
strategy. Meanwhile, perhaps you give them more credit for strategic
thought than they deserve. Clearly they do not take the effort to
understand us, else they would not perceive us as a threat. Evidently they
do not know themselves, else they would live the life of Jesus rather than
usurp the name of Christians.

Sun Tzu said: "When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your
chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant of both your enemy and
of yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril."

>I myself live in fear of any religion that makes a justification to
>suit any occasion, and holds everyone but themselves to supposed
>"commandments"...and I think to hold ourselves as Pagans to standards
>which our enemies do not even hold themselves is dangerous...
>
GANGALIUS:
It is the people who live in fear who are truly dangerous, for they are
predisposed to the most desperate actions. You must first win the battle in
your own heart. Fear is your most dangerous enemy.

>But then again, I could be totally wrong...and welcome any critique...
>
GANGALIUS:
Your are in a better position to judge yourself.

Vale,
Marcus Martianus Gangalius
Aedilis Curule, Res Publica Novae Romae


Subject:	Re: FoxNews
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:58:15 EDT

With all due respect, I really only glanced over this thread because of all
the e-mails in my mail box and a limited time to view them all.

But it would seem as thought Bill's bottom line is why "turn the other cheek".

And without getting into rhetoric about it, I will only say that I am a
Pagan. I am not a Christian. I do not hold to any Christian doctrine or
teachings. I am not a Pascifist. I am not an idealist. I am not going to
"turn the other cheek" so to speak.

Does this mean that I am going to don my black trenchcoat and start throwing
pipe bombs into christian churches? No! But it does mean that the Fox News
story will not go unanswered by me. I have sent an e-mail to Fox News
detailing my thoughts on the matter and how I believe they should be make
amends.

But all this "Pagans should act like Christian" b-s has got to stop. We have
our dignitas but this does not necessarily dictate that we should act in
accordance to their code of ethics.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: FoxNews
From:	Thomas Gangale TGangale@--------
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:05:36 -0700

Salve, Dexippe.

With all due respect, you have entirely missed my point. Perhaps you should
give my post a more thorough reading.

Vale,
Gangalius

-----Original Message-----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; [m--------o:<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 10:58 AM
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Subject: [novaroma] Re: FoxNews

From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;

With all due respect, I really only glanced over this thread because of all
the e-mails in my mail box and a limited time to view them all.

But it would seem as thought Bill's bottom line is why "turn the other
cheek".

And without getting into rhetoric about it, I will only say that I am a
Pagan. I am not a Christian. I do not hold to any Christian doctrine or
teachings. I am not a Pascifist. I am not an idealist. I am not going to
"turn the other cheek" so to speak.

Does this mean that I am going to don my black trenchcoat and start throwing

pipe bombs into christian churches? No! But it does mean that the Fox News

story will not go unanswered by me. I have sent an e-mail to Fox News
detailing my thoughts on the matter and how I believe they should be make
amends.

But all this "Pagans should act like Christian" b-s has got to stop. We
have
our dignitas but this does not necessarily dictate that we should act in
accordance to their code of ethics.

--Dexippus

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Subject:	Re: FoxNews
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:46:46 EDT

In a message dated 4/27/99 2:08:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=101224113185229031138038203206129208071" >TGangale@--------</a>
writes:

<< Salve, Dexippe.

With all due respect, you have entirely missed my point. Perhaps you should
give my post a more thorough reading.

Vale,
Gangalius >>

With all due respect back, I have re-read your post and still don't know what
your position is. Maybe I'm just brain dead with juggling 12 projects here
at work, but there's a lot of rhetoric but I don't see the direction.

And Gangalius, my post was not in response to yours as much as it was just a
response.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: FoxNews
From:	"Nathan Hicks" moman@--------
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:17:04 -0400

>GANGALIUS:
>And what do you propose? That because they fall so dismally short of their
>moral code, we should fall equally short of ours? "...the moral high road
>would be the best plan, if...." No, the moral high road IS the best plan,
>period. In all things, let us compare favorably to them, if only for the
>sake of our own souls, else what do we achieve, and why?

This sounds like the steep and thorny way to Elysium.
One could make it a picnic and stop along the way to
weave tiaras out of the surrounding briars.

Rusticus


Subject:	Re: FoxNews
From:	BenBorgo@--------
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:53:41 EDT

In a message dated 4/27/99 10:35:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=101224113185229031138038203206129208071" >TGangale@--------</a> writes:
Salve Romanii!
<< GANGALIUS:
And what do you propose? That because they fall so dismally short of their
moral code, we should fall equally short of ours? "...the moral high road
would be the best plan, if...." No, the moral high road IS the best plan,
period. In all things, let us compare favorably to them, if only for the
sake of our own souls, else what do we achieve, and why?

Sun Tzu said: "Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you
will never be in peril."

It is best to extend an open hand whenever we can, but also be prepared to
wield the mailed fist whenever we must. Thus we may both prosper during
peace and overcome during war. This is not idealism, this is sound
strategy. Meanwhile, perhaps you give them more credit for strategic
thought than they deserve. Clearly they do not take the effort to
understand us, else they would not perceive us as a threat. Evidently they
do not know themselves, else they would live the life of Jesus rather than
usurp the name of Christians.

Sun Tzu said: "When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your
chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant of both your enemy and
of yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril." >>

I don't think I quite caught your full point either, Gangalius, but what I
did grasp, I agree with. What road are we to take if we do not take the
highest one? Where will this road lead us? We must strive to exceed our own
standards, not someone elses. If one is to lazy to climb to the highest road,
is the one in the middle just as good? At least its not the lowest, right?
Wrong.
If your enemy is encamped in a valley, and you upon a hill, should you bring
your troops down to him to do battle, or should you wait for this enemy to
bring himself up to you?
No, we may not be christians, but 'turning the other cheek' is not just a
christian principle, it is a moral one. However one only has two cheeks, &
once they are turned the face becomes intolerably sore, & other measures must
be taken. Does it not seem more honorable to enlighten the ignorant minds
rather than attack them with criticism? Because they abuse us, should we do
the same to them? Only as a last resort. One must educate his pupils before
he can test them. It is easy to degrade what one does not understand, but
when that same person is TAUGHT what he knows not, it becomes much more
difficult.

thats all........

Respectfully,
G.Tarquinius Caesar


Subject:	Re: FoxNews
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:44:40 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/27/99 5:56:33 PM P--------ic D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------;
writes:

<< If your enemy is encamped in a valley, and you upon a hill, should you
bring
your troops down to him to do battle, or should you wait for this enemy to
bring himself up to you? >>

Salvete!
Gentlemen. If the attack on the school was done by Christians of an obscure
sect would we even be having this discussion? But alas the P word was
uttered as these morons' religio, and this seems to be like waving a red
cloak in front of a Samnite bull!

Consider. I really doubt if we are going to be persecuted and hounded out of
existence for this. I understand that Doom III players are in as much or
more in trouble then we followers of the P word. Not to trivialize, but when
you slay an enemy with a handgun at PB range, chunks of flesh might land on
you. In video games such as Doom or Laura Croft, you blow people away at PB,
nothing occurs. Both these young men were rabid Doom players, according to
FBI releases. I myself won't play arcade shooting games. I was brought up
to respect the gunpowder weapon, its ability to destroy and its grim
aftermath.

If we have a knee jerk reaction every time people attack our beliefs, we'll
spend the time running back in forth putting out little brush fires by
correcting those who won't, don't, can't understand. And I have more
valuable things to do with my time to then stamp out fires.

Valete.
Q. Fabius


Subject:	Tactics.
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:54:13 EDT