Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: The After Life
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 03:31:51 -0500 (CDT)

On 06/06/99 20:24:48 you wrote:
>
>From: "Gaius Marius Merullus" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
>About 99% of this picture sounds to me like it was borrowed from the Greeks.

And your source for this assertion is...?

>Now, I understand that a lot of the Religio Romana was borrowed from the
>Greeks, but far from all of it; the gods and goddesses of the Religio
>Romana, I thought, were already worshipped in Latium as faceless spirits
>before there was significant contact with Greeks.

Before the Greek influence, the gods were Numinae, faceless and formless energies or entities. This was
the Etruscan influence. But people like for gods to have faces that they can identify with -- hence the
proliferation of pale, blonde, blue-eyed WASP-y Jesuses to represent a Jewish guy from the East.

>Was there any concept of an afterlife before the Greek influence entered the
>picture?

Probably. But not my area of research.

>Also, by Cicero's time, how many people, do you think, believed in the
>Elysian Fields, Cerberus and other elements of the afterlife as you've
>described it?

How should I know? Contrary to popular opinion, I wasn't there. But there are many people who believe it
now. As a pagan and follower of the Religio, I do. I find it just as easy to believe in as the concept of
heaven and the pearly gates and hell. Or a "tunnel of light with friendly beings welcoming you". We all
hope that death isn't the end. I've certainly got MY bronze coin ready when the time comes!

A significant number, I'm sure, since writers were still referring to Rhadamanthus as King of the
Underworld by the end of the Imperial Period and Dis Pater's cult was still active. (Still is active, in some
places -- such as my house.)

Rhadamanthus was interesting. As a shade, he was "king" of the underworld and not a god. His fellow
judges were also kings, most obviously Minos, which led scholars to believe that the three Judges were in
fact shades of real, revered kings.

Rhadamanthus and Mercurius (as psychopompus) were also present at gladiatorial games to render
the rites of the dead to losing fighters. When a fighter died in competition, Mercurius would touch the
man with a red-hot caduseus to assure that he was really dead, and Rhadamanthus would claim him for
the Underworld by striking him ritually with a mallet, at which point the loser was dragged out of the
arena. Both god and shade were represented by men in masks -- a beaked mask for Rhadamanthus.
Which sounds to me more Egyptian than Greek, but there you are. (Thanks to Lindsey Davis.)

-- Flavia Claudia


Subject:	Re: religiosity survey
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 03:38:39 -0500 (CDT)

On 06/06/99 23:28:33 you wrote:
>
>From: Megas-Rob--------n <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015056190036129" >amgunn@--------</a>
>
>Avete Omnes!
>
>This person is doing a (hopefully) minimally biased survey on individual
>"religiosity." I took the suvey, which consisits of 100 questions. The
>surveyer expresses that her site does not take any information except that
>which is actually given. (in re: no "cookies!")
>
>In Amicus - Venator
>
>>
>> This is the researcher's e-mail
>> <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=051212020112175132172098085091130151177005057196000130152150" >Kristina_DeNeve@--------</a>
>> This is the survey URL
>> <a href="http://Diogenes.Baylor.edu/Internet_Phase1" target="_top" >http://Diogenes.Baylor.edu/Internet_Phase1</a>

Uh oh! Baylor University? As in the former Baylor Baptist College, formerly one of the strictest "bible-
based" schools in Texas? (That was their claim to fame --they turned out conservative preachers who went
on to head expensive and influential congregations) Of course, I'm sure things have loosened up since my
ex-husband (a politician, not a preacher) went there.

Should be an interesting thesis. Especially if she hears from a lot of Pagans!

-- Flavia Claudia


Subject:	Re: A wedding announcement
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:46:51 +0100

Salvete Omnes,

As Aedilis Plebis, I also give you my congratulations to citizens Cornelius
Mamertinus and Amethystia Iunia Crystallina. May the Gods protect your
union, and don't forget... A lot also depends on you to give each other
happiness. Guide yourselves by the light of reason, the light of
Apollo-Mithras-Helios, Sol Invictus.

Valete

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedilis Plebis


Subject:	Re: Help Wanted
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:50:34 +0100

Salve Curulis Aedilis Marcus Martianus Gangalius

I'm presently building the Ludi Romani (Roman Games) page based on the pages
already built on the Web site, so that you may count the Aedilis Plebis as
part of your staff ;). The page will be available soon.

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedilis Plebis


Subject:	Re: a wedding!
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 08:23:27 -0500

On 6 Jun 99, at 9:10, jane wrote:

>
> Mamertinus and Crystallina, may the Gods smile on you both!
>
> I can't help but ask - are you doing anything Roman for your wedding?
>
> Patricia Cassia
>

Thanks for all the well wishes.

The wedding looks like this (on paper anyway <G>):

I will wear a flame colored veil and matching shoes (well, almost
matching <G>). I have a request in to the auger for dress colors (if
the gods tell him there is a preference). Hopefully he won't put me
in sequins <G>.

The only people there will be ourselves and the children (Kacey,
Andrew, Devin, Terry and Lapis). I know there were about 10
witnesses, but the kids are so energetic that each will serve for 2
people <G>. This will be a complete surprise to the kids.

We will be looking for the place this weekend. We decided on the
local State park, but not exactly where. The ceremony will be held
outside.

We called and asked 4 state agencies when we got the marriage
license and no one could tell us one way or another if a minister
could preside over their own ceremony (seems there shouldn't be a
problem unless we get divorced and one of us uses the fact that
the spouse performed the service), so we will be taking our
chances. I will be the minister at our wedding!

We have a little script. We will have Kacey (the oldest girl) play
matron of honor. We will put Lapis in a basket with a bag that has
the rings in it. The boys (Andrew and Devin) will give us the rings
from the bag. Kacey will join our hands. Terry will be the flower
girl. We have a beautiful dress covered in flowers (we figured it was
the closest we could get, as Terry isn't the best flower carrier in the
world <G>) for Terry to wear. Hopefully she will stay still for 5
minutes!! <G>

Because of the little ones, this is not going to be the most
elaborate ceremony in the world. We will be wearing our wedding
rings on our right hands (we tried the left hand thing before and it
seems futile to us to go down that ol path again! <G>). We are
trying to incorporate at least SOME Roman stuff into the ceremony.

We will be going out for ribs afterwards (there was a sacrifice of the
pig -- this was the closest we could think of <G>)!!

I have decided that, as my concession to the 90's I will be
hyphenating my name Iunia-Cornelia <G>. I would like to ask if my
name MUST be removed from it's place with the gens Iunia.
Couldn't I just be listed in 2 places? I guess I feel like a heel
leaving my pater/daddy like that <G>.

We'll see if we can get pictures (I SWEAR I'll get the birth
announcement in the mail!!!!).

I'll also post how it ACTUALLY went <G>. You guys know me --
Murphy's Law, here I come!!!!!

Crys
Maius Cornelius Mamertinus and Amethystia Iunia Crystallina

Roman, let this be your care, your art: To beat down the proud, and teach the ways of peace.
Virgil

ICQ# 38493770


Subject:	Re: Religio Romana
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 10:23:51 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 6/4/99 5:04:41 PM E--------rn D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113082020165082153015098190036129" >Exitil@--------</--------;
writes:

<< Perhaps we could just separate the religion from the nation? Would
encourage
more non-pagans to join and would decrease the change of Nova Roma being
called a cult.
>>

Excuse me...but I don't know how long you have been a citizen here so forgive
me if I sound drakonian...but.....WE ARE NOT SEPERATING THE RELIGIO FROM THE
REST OF THE NATION!

Nova Roma was founded as a Pagan Organization where Roman Pagans can come
together to learn about Rome and help rebuild the grandeur of her Republic.
We are welcoming of all individuals who have an appreciation of Rome
regardless of their spiritual views but that does not mean that Nova Roma is
a secular organization with a Roman Pagan branch.

We are not a cult. Anyone who would dare view us as a cult or refer to us as
a cult would obviously have no understanding of what a cult is. And we are
not going to go on a PR craze to aquire "non-Pagan" members.

The Religio is the lifeblood of Nova Roma. Though in my humble opinion it
has been overly downplayed during the last year or so of NR's existence and
should be more highly focused on if we are to grow and expand. But an NR
without the Religio would be no NR at all.

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Paterfamilias Gens Luciania
Augur, Nova Roma


Subject:	Re: A wedding announcement
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 10:41:56 EDT

In a message dated 6/6/99 12:35:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
&-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166114056127135138082190036" >mater@--------&--------a> writes:

<< Although many of you already know, or suspected, I am finally
announcing publicly that the wedding of Gaius Cornelius
Mamertinus and myself will be held on 18 June 1999. >>

June 18 now? Oh goddess...do you need another Augury?

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: The After Life
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 10:43:42 EDT

In a message dated 6/6/99 4:49:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=197166044078159153184102065148081239136144139046209" >p--------lecorde@--------</--------; writes:

<< the spirit that guides the dead to the Underworld is
the god Mercury (Hermes Psychopompus). >>

And in some instances it was said to be the Goddess Iris...goddess of
rainbows.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Religio Romana
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:18:31 +0100

Salvete

><< Perhaps we could just separate the religion from the nation? Would
>encourage
> more non-pagans to join and would decrease the change of Nova Roma being
> called a cult.
> >>
Well, this was discussed some time ago, and by the time I had this same
opinion, for I thought that to separate the state from religion would not
repulse non-Pagan potential citizens. Nowadays, I think differently:
1- The Religio Romana was a STATE religion in Rome. That should remain in
Nova Roma.
2- Pagan religion has a very peculiar feature... It respects all other
religions for pagan deities have correspondence with other deities from
other lands and other nations. This same divine attributes or archetypes are
found in distant Gods with other names. The Religio Romana is ONE FORM of
worship of the Gods. As an example, take the correspondence held between the
Syrian Bel, Canaanite Baal, and the Roman Jupiter. There are many many other
examples. The official adoption of the Religio Romana does not preclude
different forms of worship or philosophycal thought among the citizens of
Nova Roma. It simply defines an official form of worship of the archetypes
of Nature. For a brief period, in the 4th century, Christ was identified
with Sol Invictus. Why can't the we regard things in the same way, with the
same open mind?

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedilis Plebis et Propraetor Provinciae Lusitaniae


Subject:	Re: My Replies
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:36:14 EDT

<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=180166080058082135090082190036" >hadji@--------</a> ha----------------bed:

>I would like to ask you if there are any documents, which approve your
>Mongolian origin.
>I am asking because the Mongols really invade Poland and some other
>central and east european countries, but had no settlement to the west
>of Volga river, Ural mount. and Cryme penincula (there must be done also
>a difference between the Tatars and Mongolians). They only had attacked,
>got some slaves and other propeties and return back to east. So, they
>have no time to create families. Any antropology features could be
>origined from the Turks (remember Turkish wars of Jan Sobieski) or other
>elder tribes (Avares), which were settled in the space of southern
>Poland, but not necessary Mongols.
>
>Vale
>
>Alexander

Salve Alexander

I couldn't help but notice a little lapse of logic in this line of
thought. In fact, it only takes a few moments to "create a family," and
chances are the Mongols did a lot of that while they were looting
conquered communities. It has historically been a popular activity of
victorious soldiers. Nobody is saying they stayed around to help raise
the offspring.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust.

sic friatur crustum dulce.

(Thus the cookie crumbles.)


Subject:	Re: a wedding!
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:01:26 EDT

sorry all that was not for the entire list. Damn these servers!

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: a wedding!
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:00:57 EDT

You're fine for June 18!

I did the augery during my lunch break. All is a go! : )

--Dexippus


Subject:	(Fwd) [TXPaganHomeSchoolin] : (Fwd) Bob Barr's newest assult
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:39:26 -0500

<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>If you have already gotten this, ignore it, if your not interested,
ignore it. I don't do this often.

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

</color>I got this and thought you might be interested. Many of you live an

alternative style life or practice a religion that is not Christain. We

need to protect ourselves. Once they outlaw a religion or alternative

lifestyle, they have a law in place to take out the rest of the stuff
that

they don't like. Please pass this on to anyone you think will be

interested, just strip the headers so no one has their email address
sent

around the world. It doesn't have to go to just pagan groups, many
other

groups may be sympathic to what is going on.

Thank you,

Tori

Begin forwarded message----------------------

Subject: [WADL] Bob Barr,First Ammendment again in danger

From: -------- <<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125166080078146086033082190" >--------@--------</a>

Blessings and Greetings,

First, permission is both granted and it is requested you forward
this to

every Pagan Group, Coven, Grove,Circle, Newsletter you know.

Rep. Barr of Georgia has now drawn the Battle Lines. His "Holy

Mission" is to make Witchcraft and Paganism illegal in the Armed

Forces. Once that is in place he and the RRR have a legal
precident to

point at in everyday life making the practice of Our Craft illegal.

It is time for Our Community to mobolize with a letter writing

campaign to each and every Senator, Represenative AND President

Clinton, Vice President Gore.

WADL has sent copies of lettters we have already sent to this list,

use those, if you wish as basis for your own, remember keep all

letters polite, respectful, SPELLCHECKED ( no pun intended) and
to the

point, the necessary legal cases were cited in the letter to Barr and
to

the Armed Forces subcommittee. Write to me at:
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125166080078146086033082190" >--------@--------</a>

should you need copies of those letters.

email to The President and Vice President may be sent from:

<a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov" target="_top" >http://www.whitehouse.gov</a>

to Congress from:

<a href="http://congress.org/elecmail.html" target="_top" >http://congress.org/elecmail.html</a>

this address allows you to find the Rep. And Senators from your
state by

zip code and to send them email, or gives you and address for
snail mail.

Please remember if you write someone outside your district or
State, they

will not read your email so send those outside your home area
snail mail.

May Our Lady And Our Lord Bless us in this venture.

Steve Foster

For the Officers and Board WADL

....................................................................

A GENUINE WITCH HUNT- By Joe Holley, US NEWS

(<a href="http://www.usnews.com:80/usnews/issue/990614/witches.htm" target="_top" >http://www.usnews.com:80/usnews/issue/990614/witches.htm</a>)

Georgia congressman Bob Barr targets the Army's approval of
pagan

religious groups

When fire-breathing Rep. Bob Barr called for President Clinton's

impeachment before anyone had even heard of Monica Lewinsky,
critics

called it a witch hunt. But this time Barr's targets really are

witches.

The Republican congressman from Georgia is incensed at the
Pentagon

for allowing pagan rituals to be practiced on U.S. military bases.
And

he's determined to put the kibosh on it.

In August 1997, Fort Hood near Austin, Texas, became the first

military outpost to sanction the practice of the Wicca religion. Since

then, at least five other installations have followed suit. Among
them:

Fort Polk, La., Fort Wainwright, Ark., and Kedena Base in
Okinawa.

Fort Hood's Wicca group-called Open Circle-is sponsored by the
San

Antonio-based Sacred Well Congregation of Texas. Although the
mention of

Wicca, the largest of the neopagan sects, conjures up images of
black-clad

crones chanting magical incantations, members consider
themselves

practitioners of a nature-based, positive religion that seeks to
capture

the spirit of ancient beliefs. The Fort Hood witches-whose numbers
range

from 40 to 200-conduct their monthly rituals at a Boy Scout camp
on base.

For today's heterogeneous U.S. Army, the practice is basically

business as usual. "As far as we are concerned, they are a
religious

organization providing for the spiritual needs of our soldiers," says
Lt.

Col. Benjamin Santos, Fort Hood spokesman, explaining the
Army's decision

to sanction the practice on bases.

A Defense Department official says that it would be unconstitutional

for the dod to "evaluate or judge the merits of specific faiths." The
only

ground rules: that all religious services adhere to health and safety

standards and maintain "good order and discipline."

But Barr begs to differ. "This move sets a dangerous precedent that

could easily result in the practice of all sorts of bizarre practices

being supported by the military under the rubric of 'religion,'" he
wrote

in a letter to military officials and congressional leaders last month.

"What's next? Will armored divisions be forced to travel with
sacrificial

animals for satanic rituals? Will Rastafarians demand the inclusion
of

ritualistic marijuana cigarettes in their rations?"

Now, says Barr, he "intends to pursue this issue legislatively."

He recently tried to amend a de- fense authorization bill to prohibit
the

practice of Wicca or any other form of witchcraft at Defense
Department

facilities. The measure was nixed on procedural grounds.

But Barr says he'll try again-and again. That's the sort of spell that

only a congressman can cast.

<nofill>
Maius Cornelius Mamertinus and Amethystia Iunia Crystallina

Roman, let this be your care, your art: To beat down the proud, and teach the ways of peace.
Virgil

ICQ# 38493770
<a href="http://www.liberiorum.com" target="_top" >http://www.liberiorum.com</a>


Subject:	hey crys
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:07:17 EDT

here's a pic you might want to post on the site, crys


Subject:	Re: a Roman wedding!
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:58:47 EDT

In a message dated 6/7/99 6:23:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
&-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166114056127135138082190036" >mater@--------&--------a> writes:

<< I know there were about 10 witnesses, but the kids are so energetic that
each will serve for 2 people <G>. This will be a complete surprise to the
kids. >>
Salve Amethystia Iunia Crystallina,
Only if you were being married "confarreatio" do you need ten. But this
style of marriage was limited to Patricians, and only allowed if their
parents, also, had been married with "confarreatio." There was elaborate
ceremony with the Flamen Dialis (Jupiter's High Priest) and Pontifex Maximus
presided as chief priests, as well as the ten witnesses present.
I think your best bet is "coemptio" "Coemptio" was called "bride purchase,"
as the man paid a "nummus usus," a sum of money to the guardian, and received
the bride. This was symbolic of the traditional bride purchases of earlier
Etruscan and Latin societies. It wasn't a true sale. Five witnesses were
required and the ceremony was not as ritualistic as "confarreatio," but still
the bride's husband became her guardian. But if she was of a powerful enough
family she could demand "tutor fiduciarius" i.e. he free her allowing to do
what she wanted, so while he continued to have "manus" in the eyes of Roman
law, she was free to inherit and maintain economic independence. This sounds
like you, Amethystia Iunia Crystallina.

So Gaius Cornelius Mamertinus must approach (on line) Amethystia Iunia's
Paterfamilias (who is Consul Decius Iunius Palliadus I believe.)
Gaius Cornelius will pay a "nummus usus," to the Paterfamilias, (I think a
penny should do it, remember it is symbolic!) The Paterfamilias will give
his "ius coniubium" and declare Gaius Cornelius has "manus" over Amethystia
Iunia.
All that is left is the actual ceremony. I'm translating Nepo's comments on
that now.

The last way is "Usus." This is very Roman Republic. "Usus" is a marriage
that did not require an actual ceremony; it was a simple transfer to the
"manus" of the husband after living together. Honorable intentions, the
"adfectus maritalis" would be stated at the beginning of the cohabitation.
Perhaps a declaration that living together was to end in marriage. The only
requirement for a usus was that the man and woman to live as husband and wife
for one year. The bride would then pass into her husband's guardianship.
There was a way out. If, during the first year, the woman was not home for
three consecutive nights, the usus was invalid and the couple had to start
over. I think the second one is best. Maybe Amethystia Iunia might get away
from 5 kids for three nights in a row, and then they would have to start
over! <G>.

Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus, Paterfamilias


Subject:	Re: hey crys
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 17:02:07 EDT

Salvete!
Sorry about wasting the bandwidth, I couldn't find Amethystia Iunia
Crystallina's address. it won't happen again.
Valete
Q Fabius.


Subject:	Re: a wedding!
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:27:01 -0700 (PDT)

--- <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:
> sorry all that was not for the entire list. Damn these servers!

'Allo Dex. :)

S'ok... One of my elists *Exploded*; it was a drop in the bucket. ;)

Vale et khairete,

Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andreia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7969" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7969</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
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Subject:	Re: My Replies
From:	Tinnekke Bebout tinnekke@--------
Date:	Mon, 07 Jun 1999 15:28:34 PDT

Salve Alexander
The documents are in the family books in Krakow, so I dont exactly have
access to them. They may not have stayed long enough to raise families but
they certainly took the time to rape the locals ... There are several
entries in the family book (which is actually pretty small since my father's
family is in small lineage) where there is a mother's name the DOB of the
child and next to father it just says Mongol...all of these entries are in
the 13th century...coincidentally about 9mos after a raid on southeastern
Poland...and yes according to some documents my aunt found including a diary
from a bit later the rapes were acknowledged by the family since it was
considered an unfortunate side effect of war. I should show you some
picutres of family members...even into today...very strong Asian features in
some oif us...when we were children people thought that my sister Julie was
an adopted Korean or chinese child...she's not...
Cypria

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