Subject:	Roman Wine and Beer
From:	Nicolaus Moravius n_moravius@--------
Date:	Thu, 10 Jun 1999 01:44:58 PDT

Salvete Omnes!

Well, we seem to have hit on a popular thread here...

On the subject of Roman wine, I picked this up from 'Everyman's Classical
Dictionary' (Dent, London, Dutton, New York) (and SO much cheaper to get
than a liberal education!):

"Among Italian wines Caecuban, Formian and Setinian were ranked among the
best; next to these Falernian (a heady drink); in a lower class came Alban
and Massic. The commonest of all was the Vaticanum. Other brands often
mentioned were the Sabine and the wine of Cales ( both of these were grown
in Campania)..."

- I'm working on matching these up (as far as possible) with modern Italian
equivalents from the same localities, and I'll pass on my findings via the
Sod. pro Coq. when I'm done.

As for half-fermented wine, Italy still produces Lambrusco, a naturally
effervescing, cheeky young thing no moderate drinker needs to dilute, with
an ABV (Alcohol By Volume) of between 5% and 6%.

Of ancient rough stuff, I remember (very vaguely) a place I stopped off at
in the Peloponnesos where the house speciality was 'Krassis', a local wine
which was cloudy and had bits of grape skin floating about in it. It tasted
like nectar (as long as you didn't look at it).

As the learned M. Audens says, you can't get a fructose-based fermentation
to go above 15% ABV - to get a stronger wine, you have to fortify it with
distilled liquor, and I haven't found any evidence of this being done in the
ancient world.

Recent analysis of amphora sherds in my home city of Clausentum (the major
seaport for central southern Britannia) shows that African wines were the
most popular down our way. If African wines then were anything like they are
today, they'd have come as strong as 14% ABV, whereas an average European
wine tends to ferment out at around 11%.

I think the average beer-swilling Celt apeing Roman ways (like myself) would
have diluted his or her wine by 50% (i.e., roughly beer strength). It makes
the wine go further, after all, and it can't have been any cheaper then than
it is now in Britannia

Regarding hangover cures, I could never face a pint of Hibernian cerevisia
nigra with three unborn chickens mashed up in it. Eheu!
But I've never had a hangover after a heavy night on watered wine.

Nobody's mentioned REAL Budweiser, the Czech stuff from Budvar - perhaps not
available outside Europe, but readily obtainable in Britannia - yet for some
reason most Brittones seem to prefer the American product.Gods! If they
want American beer, what's wrong with Pete's Wicked? I find the Pete's we
get here holds its own against any European commercial beer.The frogs in my
impluvium are also very fond of 'Bud', by the way. They swim in nothing
else.

The Emperor Diocletian's price control edicts of the late 3rd C. CE,
interestingly, show the price fixed for Celtic beer as double that for
Egyptian beer (which was made by mashing coarse-ground bread, rather than
malted grain), so I'd guess that it would have been a 'small' beer of around
3%, and the cerevisia celtica double that, say 6%.

Laetate in pace Libero!

N. Moravius Vado.

Subject:	Re: augury!
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:28:04 EDT

In a message dated 6/9/99 8:13:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< Uh! Which direction were they flying to? >>

Well...I was facing north so they were heading east.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Wine and Beer
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:26:53 -0400 (EDT)

I thank you kind sir for your words of flattery. In the 18th century in
England there was a very light and fruity wine served in the heat of the
summer called "sillary" which was probably similar to the light wines to
which you refer.

In several archaelogical reports of Roman "digs" reports of the wine
residue in the bottom of wine jars indicates that the wine shipped from
Rome and environs for the use of soldiers and colonists, was pretty
strong stuff. Cutting this wine with water for a meal would have been,
I believe, not unusual. I believe that Venator is laboring to duplicate
a modern day version of Falerian. If you have any further information
regarding such, I hope you will forward the data the the "Vintner to the
Stars!"

In regard to beer, I have never been overly fond of it, having early in
my naval career developed a taste for "Royal Navy Horse's Neck", a
unique brew of Scotch whiskey and Ginger Ale. However, on occasion I
did backslide, and the best beer of my aquaintaince was the Amstel
product sold in the Netherlands. Hieneken is not bad either, but does
not touch Amstel. The big "A" also has the ability to combine very well
in a large iced mug with a double shot of Geneva for a Midsummersnight
Dream, that has to be experienced to be believed.

The worst beer that I ever drank was FIX, the Greek beer, and right
after that Spanish Beer. However the unique Spanish situation is that
they make equally horrible beer and brandy, neither of which has much to
commend it. Given a little good old Navy Ingenuity though, a double
shot of cheap brandy in a large glass of Spanish beer, does not come
amiss in relaxing after a hard day in the summer sun!!!!

My favorite wine drink (besides Falernian) is the Spanish Sangria. As
made in Spain with Orange liquor, limonade, red wine (or white) and
fruit with lots of ice, is a tremendous toll-taker of the uninitiated.
I particularly like the Andalucian version with iced peaches vs,
oranges, lemons and apples. French beer is not all that impressive
either as I remember, but the German and English beers are quite good.
There is a drink in England that is most refreshing on a hot day which
is a mix of light pilsner and limonade. There is also a favorite drink
of mine called "black and tan" made with milk stout and light pilsner
instead of "Bitter Stout". Japanese beer, "Asahi" is a good drink but
far outshadowed I fear by the infamous "Plum Wine" which is really a
liquor lurking in a wine bottle. Here we have another art of the
vintner.that is devoted to showing the world to all who imbibe through
"plum" colored glasses!!!!

There is a "Passion-Fruit" wine and liquor both made in Maderia which is
quite delicious and a pineapple wine and liquor as well. However, I do
not care much for the beer there or in the Azores.

In regard to the giibes of our northern neighbors, I believe that we
have some 12% beer here in the U.S.if they are desired, which are quite
nice. It is very hard for me to be critical of the Canadians, however,
because every time I have visited Canada as a boy on vacation, in the
Navy, and later as a civilian, I and my wife have been received with
such friendliness, such enthusiasm and such hospitality that it remains
my favorite all time place outside the U.S. I had the great honor to be
a member of the first american submarine sold to Canada. They re-named
the boat "Grilse" and the take-over crew that I worked with was
phenominal. I also had the geat honor to represent my re-enactment
Regiment (British Black Watch) at Halifax in 1994 and act as
aide-de-camp to the Lt. Govenor of Nova Scotia in a duplicate ceremony
of issuing battle flags to the 84th Re-enactment Regiment just below
Citadel Hill, as was first done 225 years ago by the provincial officers
of the period on the same piece of ground.

May your drinks always be flavorful and exciting, and may you live a
long and happy life to enjoy your favorite refreshments!.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Toasts and Hats
From:	"Publius Phillipus Varrus" legate@--------
Date:	Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:35:59 -0400

Another query to the great minds of Nova Roma :)

Toasts? Did Romans toast when they drank? I don't really mean offering a
libation to the Gods, more of a 'A votre sante mon frere' sort of thing...

And secondly, hats? Did Roman men wear hats ( not military gear ) and if so,
what did they look like? I don't recall ever seeing a picture depicting a
Roman citizen with a hat on...

Publius Phillipus Varrus
( whose mind wanders some strange paths )

Subject:	Re: Toasts and Hats
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:02:47 -0400 (EDT)

Reference:
Hadrian's Wall In The Days of the Romans, R.Embleton and F. Graham, Pub.
F.Graham, Newcastle Upon Tyne:
.
---Page 35 which is a colored plate showing a Stone Mason's Workshop.
One of the workman is wearing a kind f skull cap out of leather or felt;

----Page 66 shows a working party of three men, one of whch appears to
be wearing a narrow brimmed straw hat. Another of the workman is
wearing a cloth headband. There are sevral examples of headbands and
head-ribbons with what appears to be a diadem on the forehead worn by
workers and funeral mourners;

----Page 116 shows a farmer plowing a field and wearing a straw, hide or
felt hat with a slightly wider brim that the preceeding example;

----Page 122 shows a man wearing a "Pannonian" Hat.. This looks to be
similar to a stocking cap, with a wide cloth chin strap. The top part
of the hat comes to a small cone and is shown with the cone pointing to
the front. A roll of cloth around the head indicates that the hat could
be pulled down even more than around the forehead and covering the top
of the ears;

----Several of the pictures in the reference shown both men and women
wearing the paenuta, a woolen or leather hooded cloak. The cloak had a
commodious hood, which seemed to fill the bill as a hat when cold out;

----On page 223, a drawing of a woman's hair style shows a skullcap like
net over the top of her head.

Hope this helps.

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: augury!
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:23:29 -0700

Salvete.

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:

> Ericius writes:
>
> << Uh! Which direction were they flying to? >>
>
> Well...I was facing north so they were heading east.
>
> --Dexippus

East IS very good. There are only a few pints that can be better (e.g. North East).Io!
Evoe! for the betrotheds.


BTW: In old Rome anyone (work in their period sexisms) could take the auspices for an
event. The state augurs were the ones for the state, the Paterfamilias was the one for
the familia. As with much of the Religio, the religious offices and functions of the
state were a projection of those of and for teh familia.

Thanks again, Dexippus.

Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius