Subject:	the comitae. why is this such a problem? {Speech in the Forum}
From:
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 05:13:12 EDT

{Q Fabius Maximus strides to the dais, adjusts his toga, and shouts}:
Salvete!
Last year around this time I joined Nova Roma. I was not sure what to
expect, but I joined with the hope and expectations of being involved with
something special.
And lo and behold, I met the citizens and they were all interesting and more
important, learned and dedicated people. Consider this word, dedication. It
means to carry out a task no matter what the obstacle. And at first Rome had
this dedication, this drive. And we seemed to be getting things done. Then
came the elections and poof!! We stopped.

First there was the Praetor who pissed off the Senate. So nothing got done
that month. Then there was one mini crisis after another. And again nothing
was done.
One Censor was more interested in developing stamps for the micro nation,
something that I'm sure is best classed as hobby, and nothing to do with his
office, the other became a Consul which seemed to take up all his time. And
again and again nothing was done.

A Praetor Urbanus and a Propraetor came up a workable solution which seemed
to solve most of the concerns of all about implementing the tribes and
centuries, yet all that happened was that the Senate called for a debate.
Was there a debate? Citizens, your guess is as good as mine. One thing is
for sure, nothing was told to us, and again nothing was done.

Now we are told that one of our Censors is on vacation, (Roman days being too
strenuous no doubt), with one of the Quaestors. The other Censor will only
be heard from when he wants to congratulate his family member on her
nuptials. And again nothing has been done.

Our constitution makes the assemblies of the Tribes and Centuries very
important to our elective process and our law making process. Nova Roma has
been in living, breathing existence for over a year now and still nothing has
been done!

I asked the Senate to help force the Censors to carry out their assigned
task, and was told it was not their job. They were powerless. Again nothing
was done.

Fellow citizens forgive me. My good friend Audens (if he will still call me
that after my speech today) often says, "Fabius, you want too much, too
fast." The Curule Aedile says I waste much time with "my senseless
bickering."

Citizens they are right. I do bicker. But it is the truth! The magistrates
are powerless! They are impotent! Therefore I come to you today like Kleon
the Tanner approached the citizens of Athens. I come to you as a Demagogue.
We see a crime being done to our beloved Nova Roma and we do nothing. The
crime? Inaction. And yet we are letting the magistrates get away with it.

No more! Since the Senate can do nothing, the second half of the SPQR - the
people - must. If we all join together in one voice and demand that Senate
sees that Censors carry out their duty, they will be forced to accede to our
wishes. Because right now I think, no I know, they think that we don't care.
But that is not true, fellow citizens, we care a great deal. It is just
that we have refused to flex our muscle, our voice, because we thought it
would be all taken care of. The result? Nothing has been done.

No more. All of you, must act, no, you cannot let this sad state of affairs
continue.
Let your outcry of rage and dismay be heard in all the provinces. Let it
shake the marble benches, where the boni cower! Let it be heard throughout
the length and breadth of Nova Roma, Our Nova Roma! Let's us stake our claim
for the good of our nation.

Only then, when our magistrates realize that we, the people, demand action,
will action come. Until then, nothing will be done. History has proven that.

I will be down south in S.D. for the weekend. It is Father's Day. So I'm
not in hiding. Just out of communication.
Fortune preserve our great Republic.
Valete!

Subject:	I'd like to thank the Academy...
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:01:37 -0500 (CDT)

Taking into account Fabius' rather overwrought and humorously hysterical speech...
(good job, Fabius!).. but certainly agreeing that he has a legitimate right to be frustrated...

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
>
>{Q Fabius Maximus strides to the dais, adjusts his toga, and shouts}:

So what else is new? ;) You ain't the only one...

>First there was the Praetor who pissed off the Senate.

Well, let's at least get the terminology straight. There was an immature and inexperienced Praetor who
willingly performed an act very similar to spying on his parents then giggling to his friends.
But what the hell... it's water under the bridge and we've got bigger problems than that now.

So nothing got done
>that month. Then there was one mini crisis after another.

Usually precipitated right here on the e-list and by the same people, many of whom apparently need the
excitement of the drama it creates.

>
>A Praetor Urbanus and a Propraetor came up a workable solution which seemed
>to solve most of the concerns of all about implementing the tribes and
>centuries, yet all that happened was that the Senate called for a debate.
>Was there a debate? Citizens, your guess is as good as mine. One thing is
>for sure, nothing was told to us, and again nothing was done.

No, you were told, but it wasn't what you wanted to hear. And I'll tell you frankly, it's not what I want to
hear, either. I have no idea what the hold-up is here, and like everyone else, I'm getting pretty sick of
waiting for this very basic function to be done. It's been bounced to the Censores, to the Consul, to the
Senate, and now back to the Censores. What is this? Brain surgery? Will someone just take responsibility
for this and GET IT DONE?

>>
>Our constitution makes the assemblies of the Tribes and Centuries very
>important to our elective process and our law making process. Nova Roma has
>been in living, breathing existence for over a year now and still nothing has
>been done!

We don't have to have the Tribes and Centuries in place in order to have an election (we had one without
them before), but if we SAY we're going to have them, then we SHOULD. If we're not going to have
them, then amend the Constitution to eliminate them and get on with business.
>
>I asked the Senate to help force the Censors to carry out their assigned
>task, and was told it was not their job. They were powerless. Again nothing
>was done.

I don't see much of a way to force the Censores to do anything. If you want to go to their houses and twist
their arms, be my guest. I'll swear I saw you having lunch at Spago at the time.

>
>Fellow citizens forgive me. My good friend Audens (if he will still call me
>that after my speech today) often says, "Fabius, you want too much, too
>fast." The Curule Aedile says I waste much time with "my senseless
>bickering."

Well, you don't choose your issues very wisely and tend to fall on your sword needlessly. But on this issue,
you're dead on right. I don't think this particular issue is wanting too much too fast. ESPECIALLY the "too
fast" part.

>
>Citizens they are right. I do bicker. But it is the truth! The magistrates
>are powerless! They are impotent!

Now, let's not get personal about their sex lives... you're not Ken Starr, ya know.

Therefore I come to you today like Kleon
>the Tanner approached the citizens of Athens. I come to you as a Demagogue.
>We see a crime being done to our beloved Nova Roma and we do nothing. The
>crime? Inaction. And yet we are letting the magistrates get away with it.
>
Okay, from here on to the end, you're just getting silly again, like Jack Nicholson on crack. You were doing
great up until then.

-- Flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: Hey military guys!!
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:23:17 -0400 (EDT)

I thank you most kindly for your thoughts C. Aelius Ericus and I will do
my best!!!

Slaves were most often utilized in areas where legions were permanently
encamped to do the "dirty work" and the monotanous labor of the area.
For instance the supplying of Viminacium on the Danube (the base of the
7th Legio in approximently 85 A.D.).. The main supply line for this
base was to bring the goods up the Danube River. A marvelous road was
built on the Western side of the river literally chisled out of solid
rock, and it was along this road that slaves towed the supply vessels
up=stream for a hundred or so miles at a place called the "Iron Gates"
where the river was constricted by the high mountains on each side, and
flowed so swiftl, that no ship could "sail" up river.

As Enricus says, a slave was a tool and a weak tool would not have been
used until it could pull it's own weight. Loading and unloading supply
barges, as well as cleaning and calking these vessels, hauling them up
the marine rails on greased skids, repairing them and putting them back
into the water under the supervision of a shipwright would have been
part of a slaves job.

Slaves were sent to the mines in Spain and other places, and here
children may well have been used as they were used in England in the
18th and 19th centuries to go into very small mine shafts and drag out
wagons of ore, coal, etc, that a grown man could not fit into. They
were very probably abused sexually and physically and certainly not fed
well. A child slave in a big house or country farm would have been
lucky indeed, because of the greater ready availability of foodstuffs!

A slave boy may have been used to haul fuel for a blacksmith, and work
the bellows continually for 8-12 hours while the blacksmith(s) changed
shifts. We know that Thomas Jefferson had six slaves that worked around
the clock making nails. It was from this bounty of nails that a good
part of the money came from to build Monticello. I am sure that the
Romans had hit on something similar early on.

One of the big questions regarding the Roman Legions, is the amount of
manufacturing that was necessary to create the amounts of military
supplies of the period. Using slave labor in round the clock operations
(12 hours on -12 hours off) would have answered in almost any industry
from making leather tents to hauling charcoal for pottery furnaces.. It
was not efficient, however, and required a lot of supervision. Children
in the early days of the English, French and later American Industrial
Revolution could be trained to be quite nimble and productive in slavery
particularly in tasks where physical strength was not a factor and if
their parents were threatened with injury or torture based on the
child's production.

Filthy and dangerous jobs usually fell to the slaves, such as cleaning
out latrines, and being lowered into flooded or caved in shafts to hold
a light and determine the extent of damage. These jobs may have been
allotted to childeren because of their smaller size and weight. They
brought in wood and water to keep the fires in the great kitchens of the
empire hot to cook the succulent roasts served to the owners;, kept the
horse boxs full of hay and grain, fed and watered the other animals (the
only thing lower on the scale of life than they-not horses!!!), worked
the flax to extract the linen fibers (a very boring and dirty job) as
well as shearing sheep, washing the wool, and weaving..

Keeping the grain mills full of grain and on occasion acting as slaves
to turn the mill when the animals were sick or scarce. Slaves were used
on construction projects in the dangerous areas in high places and those
who worked under the cranes and those who provided the rotary power for
the cranes. Harvesting in the fields would have been a major use of
slaves under an overseer and the refreshment of the slaves in the field
with food and water would probably have fallen to male children. Female
children were not considered to be nearly so important as male children
because they did not grow to be strong, so thery were usually regulated
to lesser household duties or farm duties and probably would have been
bred at puberty in the hopes of getting a male child.

There are certainly a wide variety of peripheral tasks that go along
with every major and even minor industry that was operating in the
Republic and the Empire, and the overwhelming Roman idea of logical
usage, would have found a place for child slaves at the earliest
possible age.

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Legionary Brand
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:33:41 EDT

In a message dated 6/17/99 9:32:34 PM Eastern Daylig--------ime, <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=034056178237175198015199190036129" >legate@--------</a>
writes:

<< I've read a couple mentions of a brand ( or possibly ) tattoo that members
of a Legion were given...

If this is a fact, does anyone know where it was applied, what the ceremony
involved was and what the brand looked like? >>

If it was applied to the buttocks...I wanna be there for the next round!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Hey military guys!!
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:39:12 EDT

In a message dated 6/17/99 10:48:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< I leave off here and let Fabius have his turn. And Audens. And maybe
Marius Fimbria will
want to chime in too. >>

Hey, just because I'm not into military doesn't mean I'm not into slaves!

Now what about those slaves? Who has them? Where can I get them? How much
do they cost? Do they come clothed or do I have to dress them in leather
myself?

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem? {Speech in the Forum}
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:49:10 EDT

{{{Dexie pulls up a lounge chair, pours himself a chalice of Merlot, lights a
clove ciggy and states....}}}

Let The Games Begin!

--Dexippus


<<First there was the Praetor who pissed off the Senate. So nothing got done
that month. Then there was one mini crisis after another. And again nothing
was done.
One Censor was more interested in developing stamps for the micro nation,
something that I'm sure is best classed as hobby, and nothing to do with his
office, the other became a Consul which seemed to take up all his time. And
again and again nothing was done.

A Praetor Urbanus and a Propraetor came up a workable solution which seemed
to solve most of the concerns of all about implementing the tribes and
centuries, yet all that happened was that the Senate called for a debate.
Was there a debate? Citizens, your guess is as good as mine. One thing is
for sure, nothing was told to us, and again nothing was done.

Now we are told that one of our Censors is on vacation, (Roman days being too
strenuous no doubt), with one of the Quaestors. The other Censor will only
be heard from when he wants to congratulate his family member on her
nuptials. And again nothing has been done.>>

Subject:	Re: I'd like to thank the Academy...
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:56:07 EDT

In a message dated 6/18/99 9:01:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029176066112038190112158203026129208071" >m--------oon@--------</a> wr--------:

<< Usually precipitated right here on the e-list and by the same people, many
of whom apparently need the
excitement of the drama it creates. >>

Drama Queens....stand up and be counted!!!!!

But seriously...I do believe at the time of the last election it was a
controversy whether or not to have the elections without the tribes and
centuries in place. After a long debate it was settled to go along with the
election for that year without them but with the determination to have them
in place for the next year's election.

It's now the end of June and we don't have the tribes and centuries in place.
So unless someone or some people take the reigns and have it done, we can
all expect another election without tribes and centuries in December.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem? {Speech in the Forum}
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:18:36 EDT

Salvete Omnes,

It is interesting to see a sort of attempt at Roman oratory here in the
Forum. However, it seems to me that it might have been better to post
something dedicated to positive and constructive ends, rather than to attempt
to get everyone upset and angry at one another. Such things can only create
bad feelings all around.

I won't bother trying to answer Q. Fabius point by point. He has in fact been
uninvolved with the work needed to resolve the Comitia issue, and the points
he has covered have little relation to the actual progress of that work.

Why has there been such a problem with the tribes and Comitiae? Because they
are the most complex and difficult part of the ancient Roman governmental
system. They touch not only on history but also the future of Nova Roma. This
system will permanently change each Citizen's status and ability to influence
Nova Roma's government. Such things are best done with careful deliberation
rather than impulsiveness.

There has also been more to this situation than the complexity of the ancient
Comitia system itself. For months the Senate and Censors have been sorting
through with conflicting plans and advice from Citizens, many of them
demanding that their ideas be implemented immediately. Nova Roma cannot make
its decisions by knee-jerk reaction. It would be a dereliction of our duty to
make this decision without considering the Citizens' advice carefully.

However, the job is in fact now done. A workable and direct system of
assigning tribes and Comitia has been worked out. It was introduced at a
meeting of both Magistrates and Citizens attending Roman Days on June 12. I
and my fellow Censor, Decius Iunius Palladius, will begin contacting Citizens
and assigning the Tribes within the next three days. From these Tribes the
Comitia will be formed. This last important branch of Nova Roma government
will be up and running by the end of the month, leaving plenty of time for
the Consuls to make the necessary arrangements for the next election.

This announcement has nothing whatever to do with the accusatory posting by
Q. Fabius. His demagoguery comes too late, several days after the Comitia
issue was settled. This has merely been my first opportunity to post after
returning home very late last night.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Censor, Senator

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem? {Speech in the Forum}
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:30:10 -0500

On 18 Jun 99, --------:49, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:

>
> {{{Dexie pulls up a lounge chair, pours himself a chalice of Merlot,
> lights a clove ciggy and states....}}}
>
> Let The Games Begin!
>
> --Dexippus

Scootch over hon!!

Crys
Gaius Cornelius Mamertinus and Amethystia Iunia-Cornelia Crystallina

Roman, let this be your care, your art: To beat down the proud, and teach the ways of peace.
Virgil

ICQ# 38493770
<a href="http://www.liberiorum.com" target="_top" >http://www.liberiorum.com</a>

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem? {Speech in the Forum}
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:30:34 EDT

In a message dated 6/18/99 10:20:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=137166066112082162090021200165114237071048139" >Cassius622@--------</a> writes:

<< Why has there been such a problem with the tribes and Comitiae? Because
they
are the most complex and difficult part of the ancient Roman governmental
system. They touch not only on history but also the future of Nova Roma.
This
system will permanently change each Citizen's status and ability to
influence
Nova Roma's government. Such things are best done with careful deliberation
rather than impulsiveness. >>

Didn't Germanicus have a plan to put this into place? I'm just curious why
that was never tackled in the beginning?

Also, can someone educate me on the nature of the Tribes and Comitae and how
it would affect each citizen's status?

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem? {Speech in the Forum}
From:	BenBorgo@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:38:33 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 6/18/99 2:13:50 AM P--------ic D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
writes:
Salve Citizens,

I joined Nova Roma only three months ago, with much the same hopes as Quintus
Fabius. I must say I found no less than he, yet still no more. As a new
citizen maybe I should keep my mouth shut, and as a new citizen that has not
been exceptionally involved in Nova Roma, maybe I should keep my mouth shut.
Well friends, I cannot. Furthermore I don't see how anyone can!
The Comitiae are a crucial function of a Republican government, in fact they
are the most crucial. What have we without them? Oligharchy, tyranny? I for
one will not call our Senate tyrants, but aren't we heading that way? Perhaps
the Senate has it's attention on other matters. If the people knew what these
other matters were, perhaps we would be more understanding. What upsets the
people is that we were told the Senate was debating this issue, only to be
told many weeks later by our esteemed Consul, that the Senate had done and
would do no such thing, that the responsibility lies on the Censors. Well
this is certainly true, as Consul Lucius Equitius has shown us, but why were
we initially told otherwise?
The people realize that our initial formation of the Comitiae may not work
perfectly. I've heard many citizens ask that they but put in place, and that
they could be easily amended if they do not work. I reiterate, what exactaly
are you waiting for? Without something in place, nothing can be improved.
There were several ideas for the froming of the Comitiae put forth by both
magistrates and citizens, what of these? Don't the Censors need only to
choose one? Again it is not carved in stone the second we put the plan in to
action, it can be amended or even done away with all toghether if it is found
to be detrimental to our nation.
We NEED the Comitiae. Nova Roma cannot function properly without it. Should
any other issues come before this one?
Quintus Fabius ended by calling for the people to take action of their own
accord. I disagree, but this is not without precedent in the history of our
Ancestors. I seem to recall reading of several instances when the people,
under the leadership of their Tribune, took matters into their own hands when
the administration would not listen. This should be a LAST resort. It is not
honorable to surpass the government unless they are absolutly unwilling to
attend to the issue at hand.
I personally have full faith that the Censors, when they see how heavily the
Comitiae weigh with the people, will take action and will do so quickly. We
are not impatient, we have waited. We will not let go so quickly this time.
As Quintus Fabius said, History has proven it takes pressure from the public
to get things done, and now noble Censors you are under pressure. I can but
hope you do not dissapoint the citizens that have faith in your
administration.

Most Respectfully,
Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
Paterfamilias gens Tarquinia
Promotor Fidei



<< Last year around this time I joined Nova Roma. I was not sure what to
expect, but I joined with the hope and expectations of being involved with
something special.
And lo and behold, I met the citizens and they were all interesting and more
important, learned and dedicated people. Consider this word, dedication.
It
means to carry out a task no matter what the obstacle. And at first Rome
had
this dedication, this drive. And we seemed to be getting things done. Then
came the elections and poof!! We stopped.

First there was the Praetor who pissed off the Senate. So nothing got done
that month. Then there was one mini crisis after another. And again
nothing
was done.
One Censor was more interested in developing stamps for the micro nation,
something that I'm sure is best classed as hobby, and nothing to do with his
office, the other became a Consul which seemed to take up all his time. And
again and again nothing was done.

A Praetor Urbanus and a Propraetor came up a workable solution which seemed
to solve most of the concerns of all about implementing the tribes and
centuries, yet all that happened was that the Senate called for a debate.
Was there a debate? Citizens, your guess is as good as mine. One thing is
for sure, nothing was told to us, and again nothing was done.

Now we are told that one of our Censors is on vacation, (Roman days being
too
strenuous no doubt), with one of the Quaestors. The other Censor will only
be heard from when he wants to congratulate his family member on her
nuptials. And again nothing has been done.

Our constitution makes the assemblies of the Tribes and Centuries very
important to our elective process and our law making process. Nova Roma has
been in living, breathing existence for over a year now and still nothing
has
been done!

I asked the Senate to help force the Censors to carry out their assigned
task, and was told it was not their job. They were powerless. Again
nothing
was done.

Fellow citizens forgive me. My good friend Audens (if he will still call me
that after my speech today) often says, "Fabius, you want too much, too
fast." The Curule Aedile says I waste much time with "my senseless
bickering."

Citizens they are right. I do bicker. But it is the truth! The
magistrates
are powerless! They are impotent! Therefore I come to you today like Kleon
the Tanner approached the citizens of Athens. I come to you as a Demagogue.

We see a crime being done to our beloved Nova Roma and we do nothing. The
crime? Inaction. And yet we are letting the magistrates get away with it.

No more! Since the Senate can do nothing, the second half of the SPQR - the
people - must. If we all join together in one voice and demand that Senate
sees that Censors carry out their duty, they will be forced to accede to our
wishes. Because right now I think, no I know, they think that we don't
care.
But that is not true, fellow citizens, we care a great deal. It is just
that we have refused to flex our muscle, our voice, because we thought it
would be all taken care of. The result? Nothing has been done.

No more. All of you, must act, no, you cannot let this sad state of affairs
continue.
Let your outcry of rage and dismay be heard in all the provinces. Let it
shake the marble benches, where the boni cower! Let it be heard throughout
the length and breadth of Nova Roma, Our Nova Roma! Let's us stake our
claim
for the good of our nation.

Only then, when our magistrates realize that we, the people, demand action,
will action come. Until then, nothing will be done. History has proven
that.
>>

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem? {Speech in the Forum}
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:59:10 +0100

Salvete

It seems that finally our Censores have a solution for the problem...

Cassius or Palladius, could you post your solution on the list?

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedilis Plebis

Subject:	Working trip
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:04:15 +0100

Salvete cives

I'll be in France from June 19th to June 25th in a working trip, so please
forgive my absence. If you need to contact me, please send me email and I
will try to answer.

Valete

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedilis Plebis et Propraetor Lusitaniae

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem?
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:05:04 EDT

In a message dated 6/18/99 10:31:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; writes:

> Didn't Germanicus have a plan to put this into place? I'm just curious why
that was never tackled in the beginning?

Germanicus intended to have a plan for the Tribes and Centuries, but in fact
wasn't able to complete it. The provision for them was certainly set up.
Unfortunately there just wasn't time to do everything in the less than nine
months that constituted the founding year.

> Also, can someone educate me on the nature of the Tribes and Comitae and
how
it would affect each citizen's status?

Basically, the tribes and comitiae will end direct voting in Nova Roma. While
each Citizen will still get to vote within their tribe and Comitia, the final
"major" votes will be made by chosen representatives.

This is one of the many reasons why I've found it odd that so many people are
so hotheaded about this issue. They are in fact screaming to somewhat lessen
the impact of the individual Citizen within Nova Roma. I myself have been
rather reluctant to have to install a system where each Citizen's vote will
count only within a tribe but not necessarily within the final vote on any
issue...

The big issue with the Tribes and Centuries was to try and set things up in a
way that would give everyone a fair vote, and make sure that the elected
"representatives" of the Tribes and Comitia don't have the means to abuse
their electoral power.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Censor, Senator

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem?
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:13:03 EDT

In a message dated 6/18/99 10:49:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> writes:

>It seems that finally our Censores have a solution for the problem...
> Cassius or Palladius, could you post your solution on the list?

I should have a post ready by the end of the weekend. I'd like to take some
time and answer some of the Email sent to me while I was on vacation, before
AOL summarily deletes it as unread mail! There are also some Citizen
applications which I hope to process before having to sit down and write out
a full report.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Censor

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem?
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:17:27 EDT

In a message dated 6/18/99 10:49:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> writes:

>It seems that finally our Censores have a solution for the problem...
> Cassius or Palladius, could you post your solution on the list?

I should have a post ready by the end of the weekend. I'd like to take some
time and answer some of the Email sent to me while I was on vacation, before
AOL summarily deletes it as unread mail! There are also some Citizen
applications which should be processed before it's necessary to sit down and
write out a full report.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Censor

Subject:	Response to the Speech in the Forum by Q. Fabius Maximus
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:57:20 -0400 (EDT)

Marcus Minucius Audens rises to respond to the comments of his most
valued friend and colleague Q. Fabius Maximus:

Honored sir and gentleman. I have listened closely to your speech
before this August Body Knowing that your views are very often inciteful
and of great value to our micro-nation. This opprtunity to hear you has
been no different in that respect and you bring to the floor of this
chamber concerns which affect us all.

My dear sir, you need never fear that my friendship will fail over the
addressing of a problem which stands before us all, and I most
respectfully thank you for your kind recognition of me in your
presentation.

As I mentioned earlier in a post to the NR Membership, the NR members
present at Roman Days got together and discussed some very important
points of concern to all of us, and what we could do to deal with these
items. I further told the NR Membership that I did not have the
authority to reveal all of the items discussed at that meeting until the
Honorable Cassius and Cassia returned from their vacation in Marylnd. I
do, however, believe that an individual's vacation time should be
selected by the individual, and criticism of that selection is not in
the best interests of Nova Roma.

As Cassus has indicated he has been working on this effort for some
time. My only comment on that stipulation is that perhaps a periodic
report of progress may have assisted our population in controlling their
anxiety to a greater extent. However, this is only a personal
observation and not under any circumstances to be taken as a criticism.

I must say that I do object to the reference of the stamp project in a
negative an demeaning way. This project was developed and is currently
active as the beginning of a new busines to try an insure that Nova
Roman can continue to raise the funding necessary for its successful
continuence. It is very similar to my own poor attempt to sell drawings
and pictures not for profit but rather to assist Nova Roma. While I
agree, that this is not the primary task of a Censor, it is an important
one and one that should be respected.

In regard to nothing being done I do not agree. The number of people
attending Roman Days this year was doubled. Your own (Q. Fabius
Maximus) involvement with the History Program in California was a great
success and ensured that a great number of people were exposed to Nova
Roma and the Roman ideals. We have one of the best newsletters of any
organization in my aquaintance, which is no small feat at a trifling
price of less than half the cost of the normal price for a much inferior
product. We have just completed the first year of Annuals which is a
tremendous and most valuable undertaking. We have streamlined our web
page over the last year and have posted items there from all over Nova
Roma of interest and concern. We have established in the first year two
Sodalists which are active in NR and providing information and products
for sale to NR membership as well as incite into the area of our
concerns and studies. Our Propraetor of Portugal has involved NR in a
high level discussion about Roman History in Europe and our Propraetor
of the Southeastern Province has made great advances in establishing
communications. Our Propraetor of the Western Provinces has been
involved not only in the California History Presentation but very active
in oh the military and governmental aspects of NR.

I feel consrained to remind you that none of our elective or appointed
magistates are paid and so work in the period of time that can be
allotted to volunteer work. That is seldom more than 5-8 hours a week
and if you have more time than that to devote you are most fortunate. A
budget is being created for Nova Roma in it's third "straw-man" format
fo the consideration of the Financial Committee formed by the Consul's
for that purpose. We have two augurs appointed who are very active in NR
affairs and who are developing a Manual for Augury for Mater /
Paterfamilas. We have weathered several debates and discussions which
would have torn a lesser organizaton apart and we continue to grow. I
blush to admit that I may have omitted some additional valued
contribution of which I am not aware, and I beg for forgiveness of any
such ommission.

Yes, Q.Fabius Maximus, I have cautioned you in the past about wanting
too much too fast. I fear that I did not make myself clear in the fact
that too much too fast may not always relate to time and quantity, but
must also relate to consideration and quality. For that oversight I do
apologize.

I do not see your presentation as an outburst of "bickering,".but rather
as a concern or set of concerns that arise from insufficient
communication. It has long been my desire and my encouragement, in
whatever small way that I may influence this great micro-nation of ours,
that the Senate must make periodic reports to the people and that all
elected magistrates should be allowed access to the Senate Discussion
Board. The reason for that desire is simple, as the junior elected
magistrate I cannot serve the needs of my constituents unless I know
what is going on in the August Halls of Our Sentorial Fathers. If I
cannot do this this what need of my services?? I can accomplish the
remainder of my duties as an appointed clerk. If the membership of NR
does not know what is happening in it's own government, then it is human
nature to develop possibilities which in the absence of communication
develops into "fact" in the minds of those disabused of the all
essential communication. The result:

Speakers who speak from the heart of serious concerns who have not been
given the priveledge of communication.

My good friend Q. Fabius Maximus, I do not feel that I am either
powerless or impotent. I object to your inclusion of myself in your
accusation that I am "getting away with crime and inaction.". If you
have a specific point to make or a target to cast the point at, I would
most respectfully ask that you be more specific.. I also disagree with
your division of the SPQR into two halves the people and the
magistartes. The Magistrates are servants of the people who are SPQR in
accordance with the laws of the NR.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, when you call for the attention of our
citizens and encourage their uprising, for they must in the course of
this micro-nation. However, for the purpose of shaking non-existant
marble benches is neither necessary nor productive. The support of the
NR in writing, in work, in finance, in ideas are much desired and have
been the call of the senior magistrates fromthe beginning of the year.

It is understood by all the membership in a basic sort of way, I
believe, that the Magistartes must be those who involve themselves with
government on a day-to-day basis. They may not realize that these same
magistartes have not recieved any guidance from the membership except to
the highest level so that what few of the magistrates there are, some
are totally unused except for assistance to the Senior magistares as
assigned.

No, my good friend Q. Fabius Maximus, I am not angry with you at all,
for you speak with the flame of concern in your teeth, and the agony of
frustration in your mouth, and those are heavy burdens indeed to bear.
But the Senate as a whole as well as the senior magistartes MUST learn
the lessons of communication to enable the citizens to take a more
active part in the government of our most unique and special
institution.

My deepest thanks to the patience of the Membership of NR,as well as the
kindness of your permission to speak before you. My most humble
appreciation to Q. Fabius Maximus for my introduction inhis
presentation. I honor the Magistartes of Nova Roma and the gods who
protect and watch over her. I have done.

Most Respectfully Presented;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Quaestor .

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem?
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:12:30 EDT

In a message dated 6/18/99 11:06:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=137166066112082162090021200165114237071048139" >Cassius622@--------</a> writes:

<< Basically, the tribes and comitiae will end direct voting in Nova Roma.
While
each Citizen will still get to vote within their tribe and Comitia, the
final
"major" votes will be made by chosen representatives. >>

Well if that is the case then I am left sitting on the fence. For personally
I favor a true democracy over a representative form of government any day.
In today's modern era where the Internet has empowered so many people to
think and act for themselves, the need for representative government is an
archaic dinosaur.

However, for the purpose of historiocity, I can see where we need tribes and
centuries.

So...Dexie's gonna sit this one out and watch the sparks fly until he can
make a better judgement call regarding this issue.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem?
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:43:09 EDT

In a message dated 6/18/99 12:18:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; writes:

Cassius:
<< Basically, the tribes and comitiae will end direct voting in Nova Roma.
While each Citizen will still get to vote within their tribe and Comitia,
the
final "major" votes will be made by chosen representatives. >>

> Well if that is the case then I am left sitting on the fence. For
personally
I favor a true democracy over a representative form of government any day.
In today's modern era where the Internet has empowered so many people to
think and act for themselves, the need for representative government is an
archaic dinosaur.

There is a lot to be said for direct democracy. I personally rather LIKED the
last elections, where the Citizens were able to have a direct voice. However,
the Internet is in fact a help in this... I'm hoping that we can design the
voting process so that Nova Roma both conforms with ancient tradition *and*
gives Citizens the most direct input possible.

> However, for the purpose of historiocity, I can see where we need tribes
and
centuries.

Yes, it is in fact unavoidable. The whole Roman political system was built on
this. The fact that it was a rather unfair system in antiquity doesn't mean
we can abandon it now... only that we've had to work extra hard to make it
equitable for the modern world.

> So...Dexie's gonna sit this one out and watch the sparks fly until he can
make a better judgement call regarding this issue.

LOL! That kinda foreshadows the next step in this process... We'll go from
the angry calls for immediate action straight into the outraged complaints
about what *has* been done. And who says Nova Roma doesn't have a real
political system? ;)

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Cato's Cates
From:	Nicolaus Moravius n_moravius@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:03:14 PDT

Salutem!

Q. Claudia Lucentia Aprica's excellent bits of M. Porcius Cato on the
Religio page include a comment that she is unsure whether the libum (it's
cheesecake, Jim, but not as we know it) recipe would be pleasing either to
gods or mortals.

Quirites, I commend to you 'The Classical Cookbook' by Sally Grainger and
Andrew Dalby, British Museum Press 1996, from which this virtually literal
adaptation of Cato's original is taken:

Ingredients:

1 lb. feta cheese, 4oz. plain flour, 1 egg, several bay leaves

Method:

1. Break up feta and place in bowl of food processor. Process for 30 seconds
or until smooth.

2. Add sifted flour and the egg. Process for a few seconds more until a soft
dough results. Mould into a loaf and shape into a flattened circle. Score
top into portions.

3. Heat oven to 425 degrees F or 220 C or gas mark 7.

4. Place bay leaves on an oiled baking tray, put loaf on top and cover with
a casserole and bake for 45-50 minutes. Serve warm as an accompaniment to
first course or savoury course.

The proof of this pudding, O Quirites, is in the eating, and as far as the
gens Moravi's household rites are concerned, what we offer the gods is what
we offer our dearest friends at table, and it includes this item.

Mr. Cato may be a funny old bird, but he does make exceedingly good cakes!

Valete in pace deorum,

Vado.

Post scriptum I should add that the Classical Cookbook also includes enough
vegetarian recipes for several 4-course dinners. So long as you leave out
the fish sauce :-)

Subject:	Re: what we wore
From:	missmoon@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:59:23 -0500 (CDT)

On 06/18/99 12:35:25 you wrote:
>
>From: -------- <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a>
>
>Dexippus asks:
>
>>What did everyone wear at Roman Days?


So I guess my "Vesta, Vesta, She's the Best-a! Go-oo-ooo VIRGINS!" T shirt would probably not have been
appropriate.

-- flavia Claudia

Subject:	Re: what we wore
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:02:45 -0400 (EDT)

Hmmmmmmmmmm!!!! Maybe if you wore it backwards???? (<Grin>) (<Grin>)!!!

M Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: what we wore
From:	Tinnekke Bebout tinnekke@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:08:15 PDT

Flavia Claudia
Were you joking or did you make a t-shirt like that? I love it!
Vale
Cypria


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit <a href="http://www.msn.com" target="_top" >http://www.msn.com</a>

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem? {Speech in the Forum}
From:
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:10:47 -0700

HEAR HEAR!!! Excellent Q.Fabius Maximus! I applaud your speech. I too have
offered my assistance to help in the formation of our legitimate government,
the Comitea. I have spoken to our Censor Cassius and was told by him that
he wanted debate. I have offered numerous times to assist, even appealing
to the Senate, but I have not gotten any response. I again offer my
assistance to the People to help in the formation of our governmental bodies
or in any capacity that I can be useful.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 2:13 AM
Subject: [novaroma] the comitae. why is this such a problem? {Speech in the
Forum}


> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
>
> {Q Fabius Maximus strides to the dais, adjusts his toga, and shouts}:
> Salvete!
> Last year around this time I joined Nova Roma. I was not sure what to
> expect, but I joined with the hope and expectations of being involved with
> something special.
> And lo and behold, I met the citizens and they were all interesting and
more
> important, learned and dedicated people. Consider this word, dedication.
It
> means to carry out a task no matter what the obstacle. And at first Rome
had
> this dedication, this drive. And we seemed to be getting things done.
Then
> came the elections and poof!! We stopped.
>
> First there was the Praetor who pissed off the Senate. So nothing got
done
> that month. Then there was one mini crisis after another. And again
nothing
> was done.
> One Censor was more interested in developing stamps for the micro nation,
> something that I'm sure is best classed as hobby, and nothing to do with
his
> office, the other became a Consul which seemed to take up all his time.
And
> again and again nothing was done.
>
> A Praetor Urbanus and a Propraetor came up a workable solution which
seemed
> to solve most of the concerns of all about implementing the tribes and
> centuries, yet all that happened was that the Senate called for a debate.
> Was there a debate? Citizens, your guess is as good as mine. One thing
is
> for sure, nothing was told to us, and again nothing was done.
>
> Now we are told that one of our Censors is on vacation, (Roman days being
too
> strenuous no doubt), with one of the Quaestors. The other Censor will
only
> be heard from when he wants to congratulate his family member on her
> nuptials. And again nothing has been done.
>
> Our constitution makes the assemblies of the Tribes and Centuries very
> important to our elective process and our law making process. Nova Roma
has
> been in living, breathing existence for over a year now and still nothing
has
> been done!
>
> I asked the Senate to help force the Censors to carry out their assigned
> task, and was told it was not their job. They were powerless. Again
nothing
> was done.
>
> Fellow citizens forgive me. My good friend Audens (if he will still call
me
> that after my speech today) often says, "Fabius, you want too much, too
> fast." The Curule Aedile says I waste much time with "my senseless
> bickering."
>
> Citizens they are right. I do bicker. But it is the truth! The
magistrates
> are powerless! They are impotent! Therefore I come to you today like
Kleon
> the Tanner approached the citizens of Athens. I come to you as a
Demagogue.
> We see a crime being done to our beloved Nova Roma and we do nothing. The
> crime? Inaction. And yet we are letting the magistrates get away with
it.
>
> No more! Since the Senate can do nothing, the second half of the SPQR -
the
> people - must. If we all join together in one voice and demand that
Senate
> sees that Censors carry out their duty, they will be forced to accede to
our
> wishes. Because right now I think, no I know, they think that we don't
care.
> But that is not true, fellow citizens, we care a great deal. It is just
> that we have refused to flex our muscle, our voice, because we thought it
> would be all taken care of. The result? Nothing has been done.
>
> No more. All of you, must act, no, you cannot let this sad state of
affairs
> continue.
> Let your outcry of rage and dismay be heard in all the provinces. Let it
> shake the marble benches, where the boni cower! Let it be heard
throughout
> the length and breadth of Nova Roma, Our Nova Roma! Let's us stake our
claim
> for the good of our nation.
>
> Only then, when our magistrates realize that we, the people, demand
action,
> will action come. Until then, nothing will be done. History has proven
that.
>
> I will be down south in S.D. for the weekend. It is Father's Day. So I'm
> not in hiding. Just out of communication.
> Fortune preserve our great Republic.
> Valete!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Last chance to earn $5000 for your charity of choice!
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> Deadline for "GROW TO GIVE" is June 19. See homepage for details.
>

Subject:	Re: the comitae. why is this such a problem?
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:25:23 -0700

Salve Censor Cassius,

I do too share your feelings in regards to losing a form of direct democracy
in terms of allowing civies vote directly for magistrates and issues.
However, we do have a Constitution that must be followed, and implmented
regardless of our personal feelings. I feel that given the net and our
tradition of democracy we still have to be bound by our Constitution. I
agree that temperance is justified but let it not prohibit our progress.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] the comitae. why is this such a problem?


> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 6/18/99 10:31:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; writes:
>
> > Didn't Germanicus have a plan to put this into place? I'm just curious
why
> that was never tackled in the beginning?
>
> Germanicus intended to have a plan for the Tribes and Centuries, but in
fact
> wasn't able to complete it. The provision for them was certainly set up.
> Unfortunately there just wasn't time to do everything in the less than
nine
> months that constituted the founding year.
>
> > Also, can someone educate me on the nature of the Tribes and Comitae
and
> how
> it would affect each citizen's status?
>
> Basically, the tribes and comitiae will end direct voting in Nova Roma.
While
> each Citizen will still get to vote within their tribe and Comitia, the
final
> "major" votes will be made by chosen representatives.
>
> This is one of the many reasons why I've found it odd that so many people
are
> so hotheaded about this issue. They are in fact screaming to somewhat
lessen
> the impact of the individual Citizen within Nova Roma. I myself have been
> rather reluctant to have to install a system where each Citizen's vote
will
> count only within a tribe but not necessarily within the final vote on any
> issue...
>
> The big issue with the Tribes and Centuries was to try and set things up
in a
> way that would give everyone a fair vote, and make sure that the elected
> "representatives" of the Tribes and Comitia don't have the means to abuse
> their electoral power.
>
> Vale,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Censor, Senator
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ONElist: where real people with real interests get connected.
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> Join a new list today!
>

Subject:	Tribes and Comitiae
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:24:53 -0700

We get the Tribes and Comitiae so that Nova Roma has a legal government in keeping with
its constitution, then we have a legal election amending the constitution so that we can
have direct voting. Any problem there? What do you think?

Ericius

Subject:	Re: Tribes and Comitiae
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:34:42 -0700

LOL Ericius always the clear preception of the problem and the
solution!...hehehehe.... :) YOU GO! :)

L. Cornelius Sulla
*Bringing a breath of levity in this debate*
----- Original Message -----
From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 5:24 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Tribes and Comitiae


> From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
>
> We get the Tribes and Comitiae so that Nova Roma has a legal government in
keeping with
> its constitution, then we have a legal election amending the constitution
so that we can
> have direct voting. Any problem there? What do you think?
>
> Ericius
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Last chance to earn $5000 for your charity of choice!
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> Deadline for "GROW TO GIVE" is June 19. See homepage for details.
>

Subject:	Re: Legionary Brand
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:54:24 -0700

Salvete.

I do not recall having heard about such tattoos but I do recall from somewhere that some
grade of the Mithraic initiation had a brand on the forehead (third eye chakra???). It
might have been an actual hot iron brand. And on one of those pretty to look at but
sometimes hard to swallow A&E "documentaries" they said that Christian legionaries had a
tattoo for their religion. NOw what was shown, suing the Ermine St. Gd (I think) was a
small cross tattooed on the bottom of the wrist, and it looked like a gang tattoo (I kid
you not). The questions with this are: i) a Cross at that early a date? I thought the
cross became the Nazarene symbol after the Fall. (I think I skipped European
reincarnations for a while after the Flavians). ii) It's a pretty conspicuous place if
the religion is illegal and not flashy enough if the relgion is In.

Just some more thoughts on a topic before my brain shuts down entirely.

Valete.

Ericius.

Subject:	Tribes and Comitiae
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 20:55:57 -0400 (EDT)

I reflect the concern that both Ericius and Sulla have evidenced, but
since it is already in the Constitution and we have put a lot of effort
into the subject organization as it is, it may be best to see how it
works. We tried one election without it, let's try one election with
it, before we dump it. I don't think in all honesty that we can discard
something that is the basis of what we call Nova Roma without at least
trying it one time.

The wheels grind slowly but exceedingly
fine, and although I foresee the possibility of some difficulty, I
think that I would like to try it. We had some problems last year too,
but we had a hard-working Consul to help us through it and that
situation is no different this year.

Marcus Audens.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Tribes and Comitiae
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:09:43 -0700

Actually, we have had a number of votes without the tribes etc. They were on amendments
to the constitution. There was no fuss about the Ts&Cs. Maybe those votes were
technically illegal. It is being said now that we can't amend the constitution regarding
the Ts&Cs until we have the Ts&Cs, so...
My, Oh My! It just makes my head spin! [yes. I should leave Scarlet impressions to
others]

Ericius

Subject:	Re: Tribes and Comitiae
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:36:04 -0700

Salve, I could be mistaken.....and at times I definately am, but during the
first year the Constitution allowed for these minor sidesteppings til the
first election. ONce the first election occurred.....the T&C needed to be
established to create a true Senatus Consulta. That is my reading into the
Constitution.

L. Cornelius Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Tribes and Comitiae


> From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
>
> Actually, we have had a number of votes without the tribes etc. They were
on amendments
> to the constitution. There was no fuss about the Ts&Cs. Maybe those
votes were
> technically illegal. It is being said now that we can't amend the
constitution regarding
> the Ts&Cs until we have the Ts&Cs, so...
> My, Oh My! It just makes my head spin! [yes. I should leave Scarlet
impressions to
> others]
>
> Ericius
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking to expand your world?
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
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>

Subject:	Re: Tribes and Comitiae
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:01:21 -0700

RCW wrote:

> From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
> Salve, I could be mistaken.....and at times I definately am, but during the
> first year the Constitution allowed for these minor sidesteppings til the
> first election. ONce the first election occurred.....the T&C needed to be
> established to create a true Senatus Consulta. That is my reading into the
> Constitution.
>
> L. Cornelius Sulla

That would make sense.
Ericius

Subject:	Tribes and Centuries
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:42:17 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete, Dexippe, et alii.

When I heard this witticism a few years back, it was attributed to Mark Twain:

"Suppose you were a Congressman. Now, suppose you were an idiot. Ah, but I
repeat myself!"

But I have to ask, who are the more idiotic -- the idiots who get elected or
the idiots who elect them?

It is true that we now have the technical capability to have a direct
democracy, an online democracy, and it might be a good idea if everyone had
intellectual capacity, education, and critical thinking skills equal to or
better that yours and mine. Unfortunately, reality doesn't even approach
that. Moreover, even among us, the intelligencia, who has time to focus on
each and every piddly piece of legislation; Read the Congressional Quarterly
cover to cover; watch C-SPAN all day long, every day? I sure as hell don't.
So I gladly elect the candidates that I hope will best represent me. I know
that theye won't agree with me on every issue, so on the issues that are
important to me, I make it my business to know where they stand, and where
there is disagreement, I make it my business to inform them of where I stand
and why.

When I was a young smart-ass, I believed in the ideal of direct democracy.
Later on, I came to my senses. Read the Federalist Papers sometime. Those
guys knew what they were doing.

In any case, this does not apply to Nova Roma. Our goal is to re-create the
Roman Republic in every aspect, as much as is practical. Nova Roma is not
some free-wheeling social experiment, where we can feel free to dream up any
social order and political system that we please. There are other
micronations for that. I'll grant you, Nova Roma is an experiment, but it
is a BASELINED experiment. Roma Antiqua is our theoretical baseline. To
validate our experiment, we need to be meticulous about approaching that
ideal. At the same time, we are certainly NOT ancient Romans. We are
products of the 20th century, with our own sets of values, some of which the
ancient Romans would scarely have understood. While in the early years of
this new Roman Republic we strive to get as close as we can to that ancient
baseline, at some point we will have been there, done that, and we will
then, by inperceptible degrees, depart from that baseline, and go in new
directions. This is as it should be, for if Nova Roma is a living,
breathing entity, then it is the CONTINUATION of the Roman experiment in
self-government. Sadly, that experiment gradually faded during the late
Republic and the Principate. In Nova Roma, we have reset the game clock to
some time before the advent of the Caesars, and are giving it another go.

Hence the importance of establishing the Tribes and Centuries in Nova Roma.

Now, ther are some aspects of the ancient system that we want to avoid. In
Roma Antiqua, the Tribes and Centuries wer formulated in such a way as to
give the upper classes a disproportionately large level of representation in
legislation and elections. As a simplified description, the members of the
Senatorial and Equestrian Orders, who were few in number compared to the
lower ranks of Cives, were apportioned among a large number of Tribes and
Centuries, while the vast number of the Cives of lower rank were herded into
a tiny number of Tribes and Centuries. Since each Tribe, or each Century --
in accordance with whatever Comitia was called for a vote -- cast one vote,
this system was very far removed from the one person, one vote sensibility
of the present day.

The challenge for our Censores is to formulate the Tribes and Centuries in
such a manner that they approximate the one person, one vote principle,
because, quite obviously, We, the People of Nova Roma, shall stand for
nothing less!

Without being privy to whatever system the Censores have devised, what I
envision is a system that is akin to the Electoral College in the United
States, in which the popular vote of each political entity (State in the
case of the USA, Tribe or Century in the case of NR) is reported as "winner
take all". Probably what the Censores are striving for initially is to form
the Tribes and Centuries as near-equal divisions of the population of Nova
Roma, so that one Tribe, one vote, or one Century, one vote, roughly
achieves the one person, one vote ideal.

But as Gentes grow disproportionately and new ones are added, maintaining
this balance may prove an arduous task. It may be that years from now, we
end up with a system in which each Tribe or Century casts a weighted vote
based on the ever-changing demographics, as do the States in the Electoral
College of the United States.

I repeat: read the Federalist Papers. Those guys knew what they were doing!

May the Gods preserve the Senate and People of Nova Roma.

Valete,
Marcus Martianus Gangalius
Curule Aedilis et Vebsitarius Maximus
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm</a>
Mars Society California
The Martian Time Web Site
The Martian Ministry of Culture
Nova Roma
World GenWeb Calabria
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too)
The National Primary System
The Art of Darius

Subject:	Re: Report of meeting at Roman Days
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:32:41 -0700

> Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus noted that the Tribunes of the Plebs were
> supposed to have the responsibility of reporting Senate actions to the
> Citizenry, but one of our tribunes (Callidus) has resigned and the other
> (Metellus) has chosen not to carry out this part of his duties.

Callidus resigned his Tribuniate? Why? What about him supervising the law
committee? What is the status of the Tribuinate and what ramifications does
this have to the areas he is working for...and is Callidius still a citizen?

Also, Thank you Patricia Cassia...I appreciate your report. :)

L. Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus