Subject:	Australian citizens
From:	"danat" danat@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:54:47 +0930

RE: Role of the CitizenI had no idea there were as many as 9 Australian citizens. If any other 'down under' citizens want to organise something (anything!!) then drop me a line. I'd love an Australian Nova Roman community to develop.

Vale

Marcus Arcadius Pius
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Gangale
To: '<a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>'
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Role of the Citizen


Salvete, omnes.

>Australia-9; Brazilia-24; Britannia-28; Canada-6; Italia-14; Lusitania-3;
>Mexico-1
>Slovakia-2; Spain-1; Thule-6; Yugoslavia-1

How is it, that with 24 Cives, Brazilia has no Praetor? And what about Australia? C'mon, mates!

Valete,
Martianus





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Subject:	Re: Role of the Citizen
From:	"danat" danat@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 01:44:12 +0930

Salve,

Although I am fully aware of the responsibilities of being a Praetor in Old
Rome, what does it entail in Nova Roma? I might be interested in helping out
here if I knew something about it and if Australia actually needs one.

Vale,

Marcus Arcadius Pius

>
> In regard to our Australian friends, I only know of one presently
> communicating and that is Marcus Arcadius Pius. I understand that
> Consul Cincinnatus will provide the names and E-Mail addresses to the
> provincial praetors for the purpose of setting up Provincial
> Convocations upon request. If no Praetor has been appointed (probably
> because no one has asked) the list might be provided to a member
> interested in establishing such a meeting.
>
> Very Respectfully;
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>

Subject:	Proviniciae
From:	heckifiknow@--------)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:20:40 +0200

Salvete omnes,

I am not sure if this is the correct way to address NR ( so, please take
no offence, there is none intended).

But as I was recently looking at the map of provinciae, I was wondering
if it wouldnīt be good to split the provincia Thule into two.
Taking the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany to form Germania and leave
the Scandinavian countries to Thule?
Perhaps that would help to organize provincial action.

(Sorry if I am a bit difficult but consider itīs not my mothertongue)

The problem, you know, is that didnīt I look it up, I would not know who
the praetor for my provincia is.
Maybe,or quiet certainly ,its the language barrier, but I seem to be the
only citizen from Thule who is participating in this list, so that
communication between provincial members is tough.

I address the "public" and not only the senate, because I hope that I
may reach in that way some of my "neighbours".

I hope that I iniciated a fruitful debate and not a quarrel, as it might
easy become:-)



Bene valete

Lucius Metellus

Subject:	De Declaratio Belli
From:	Nicolaus Moravius n_moravius@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:13:05 PDT

Salvete! Scripsit Novus:

>Just asking again, what would NR do if someone declared war on it. > Like I
>said before, it sounds stupid but I'm interested in seeing what >people
>have to say other than "Oh we'll send them your old posts ha >ha ha". Its
>a serious question.

Post sic ego:

- I'll try and be serious with this, O Nove, though I can't think why anyone
would want to declare war on a virtual nation. As a plebeian citizen who as
yet holds no office in our Republic, I can of course speak only for myself.
In my view, then, wars are fought mostly for territory and commodities,
occasionally to save a political reputation, never for pure ideology alone.
(That's the real world, of course).

In the virtual, cyberspatial world it is possible to steal data for one's
own, unethical profit. If direct, vengeful action were then taken by the
aggrieved party instead of taking the matter to legal arbitration (or if
such arbitration failed to satisfy), I suppose that could result in a casus
belli.

The only other possibility I can think of is of some sad anorak doing it
just to get attention via the ensuing trouble. Last month, for example, some
barbarian posted abusive commets about Nova Roma and her cives (the 'Heil
Caesar!' thread) in the Forum, together with bellicose threats purporting to
come from another virtual micronation called Cyberia (look it up, if you
didn't read it at the time). A couple of cives (meipsum included) bothered
to answer back, but (s)he was smostly ignored - which is probably the last
response (s)he desired or expected. Somebody (not necessarily the same
individual) then apologized. End of problem. No-one among us demanded that
the Senate debate the sending of a punitive expedition to lay waste some of
Cyberia's Website (can you imagine anyone shouting:
"DELENDA EST CYBERIA!" ?).

My guess is that we don't have a defence (or war) policy because there is a
curiaful of other, far more pressing things to sort out, such as the actual
machinery of our democracy, how to improve our communications with each
other, push forward the frontiers of Roman studies, etc. I happen to know
that a number of our cives are very well-informed on viri, firewalls etc.
and no doubt they would be the first to put these skills at the service of
the Republic in the event of a micronational emergency.

All this notwithstanding, Nove, I suspect that the whole subject is of far
less interest to the rest of Nova Roma than it seems to be to yourself. (No
criticism intended, and a feasibility study and detailed risk analysis might
even prove to be a good service to the people and Senate, if you have the
stamina to do it). Frankly, I'm not that interested myselfas I don't see
intermicronational war as a real risk. I just thought your enquiry merited
the courtesy of a face-value reply.

Bene valete, omnes,

Vado.

Subject:	Legionary Brand
From:	greenjacket@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:13:20 -0400

Greetings,

I found a good section on the marking of recruits in the book, The Late
Roman Army by Pat Southern and Karen R. Dixon Yale University Press
Copyright 1996. From page 74-

"According to Vegetius, at the end of this four month period, the recruit
was 'tatooed with the pin pricks of the official mark' on his skin, was
entered on the records and took the military oath. (1.8; 2.5). There is
no known evidence for recruits receiving tatoos during the principate,
but a document from 295, recording the minutes of a court hearing,
implies that soldiers were given some form of idenitiy disc (Davies 1969,
218)."

I've not got a copy of the Vegetius work, but I would assume that is the
origional source for the marking of soldiers.

Hope I've been of some help.

Ti. Flavius Saturninus

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Subject:	War Declaration
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:31:51 -0400 (EDT)

Again you have dispensed information with a light touch and with
humility and have reminded the rest of us that there is a chance
(however small) that your correspondent is not a leftover child from our
somewhat tumultuous past whose only view of Rome is a somewhat skewed
vision of the Legions and a great capacity for the shedding of cyber
blood!!. I honor you for that and for the excellent explanation.

As I was reading your response, I note that there are, I suppose, some
methods of warfare that are possible on the cyber net which can destroy
the substance of a micronation, two of which come to mind such as
virus's and somethig a "hacker" friend of mine calls his "death ray". A
virus comes like a thief in the night and the first few people to be
stricken lose a considerable portion of their valued data. The second
(the "death ray") is a rather belllicose weapon which can be turned on
an unsuspecting cyber-user and will "fry" his computer internals. I am
not a cyber-weapons expert by any means but I have seen these "weapons"
demonstrated with disasterous results to the recipient.

One of my early posts on this net referred to a young man who had
promised to do some work for Nova Roma under my direction. The task set
for him was to establish a possible defence for Nova Roma against such.
Unfortunately the young man decided that he had other thingsto do, and
thus broke his word and disappeared for the anon. I see his name on the
list from time to time,but because I cannot trust him I will not waste
my time in reply. He has also in the past used different names in an
pathetic attempt to fool his former friends, but the childishness of his
posts soon trips him up. The art of writing like an adult is often more
difficult that simply "wanna-be" for a few minutes and then back to his
adolecent toys.

I take the time to tell you this my dear Vado, with the hope that it
will appraise you of a very small item in our past history that we must
live with until the young man gets old enough to provide something
useful to our micro-nation and stop playing with cyber-toys and other
people's peaceful pursuits.

Marcus Mucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Brazilian Membership
From:	"Martins-Esteves" esteves@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:05:28 -0300

Ave M. Minuci
Avete Quirites

I suppose this letter of yours was actually intended to An. Gryllus, but you
write so lovely about Provincia Brasiliensis, that I feel obliged to thank
you.

Although I don't show up very often, I am aware of the public and private
disputationes in the list, being a very loyal reader. My professional and
academical duties -- I prepare a thesis on slavery under the Principate --
and my discomfort in using the english language makes my inputs very
episodical. Nevertheless I have been being absolutely enthusiastic about
Nova Roma since July 98, when I became a member.

At the end of the last year I and my beloved (sic) Primus Fabius tried to
rise a debate about the international vocation of Nova Roma. Of course I
understand fully that NR was created by USA citizens and that the majority
of her populations lives in the USA. The we got some furious letters of some
north american nationalists, and I am ashamed to say I did not quite
contribute for a pacific conversation. As my doctor said: avoid unnecessary
stress, the first thing I did was to rest in a self-impolsed exile.

Now, animo sereno, I am ready to contribute with this conversation between
novaromani in Brasil and the other concives overseas. If anyone has any
question or proposal regarding NR in Brasil, please feel free to contact me,
preferently trough the list, as this is a public affaire.


Valete

T. Horatius Atticus




From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------br>
I have an idea that I wouldlike to discuss with you about commuication
with those members in Brazil. I am not sure just how to approach this,
so I will jump right in and hope the splash doesn't drive you away
(<Grin>).

We don't hear much from our Brazilian friends and I would suppose that
is the result of the language barrier, but I believe that to retain
those individuals, if it is not too late, that communication or an
attempt at communication should be made. Unfortunately I am the world's
worst linguist. Fortunately my wife is at the other endof the scale and
can speak a little Portuguese (it was she who made outr trip to the
Azores and Madeira so enjoyable).

I guess what I am proposing is some kind of three way communication with
our Brazilian friends so they can also be involved on the internet with
the Americans. I value their input, and although I have never visited
Brazil, my father and my wife have told me what wonderful people they
are, and I saw for myself the most hosptable, clean and lovely places
in my last vacation.

I am willing to get a Portuguese dictionary and start working on
something and I am sure my wife will help me. If you would also be
willing perhaps we could get something going.

I hope your trip was rewarding and this missive finds you well hearty,
and in the best of health.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


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Subject:	Brazilian Membership
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:02:08 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Citizen T. Horatius Atticus;

How nice to hear from you. It is not difficult to write about a people
who are as hospitable and clean as are the Portugese. My father in his
day, who was the Maintenance Supeintendant of a large Dam Project in the
interior of Brazil said that repeatedly and he, like his son, was not
given to idle praise. My wife during a week long visit to Rio de
Janeiro echoed the praises of my father 40 years before, and it was her
experiences in Brazil that led to a great two weeks in the Azores and
Madeira. I can assure you that it will not be that last time that we
will enjoy Portugese hospitality. My week in Lisboa during my service
in our Navy was a great boost to my fund of historical background as
well as a darned good time!! In a car trip across the Spanish
Extremadura when we lived in Spain (El Porto De Santa Maria---just
across the bay from Cadiz), I distinctly remember how pleasant it was to
cross the Portugese frontier and immediately be cooled by the tall trees
along the roadway and the wooded lands stretching away to the top of the
nearby hills. I sure hated the trip back though (Ha Ha).

While my letter was addressed to Graecus, I was hoping to get just such
a reply from someone in Brazil. I am concerned about the lack of
communication from your province and its effect on the whole of NR. I
am really not sure what I can do about that, if anything,, but I can
make some bridges (Roman Engineer you know!!!!!) and try to assit in the
ways that I can. My original idea was to involve someone who is fluent
in Portugese and English to do a sort of translation of messages for
those in Brazil (any Portugese speaking country for that matter) who may
not speak English. I am handicapped in the instance that unlike you, my
friend. I have only one language and that is American (not even a proper
English can I claim). My idea would be to mail letters to one or more
people in Brazil informing them of what is happening in the rest of the
world as far as NR goes and have that someone or several translate the
letter into Portugese and send it on to the others.

I have no idea what that would cost in time and effort, as linguistic
abilities are as far from my expertise as you can get!! However, I am
willing to try, if someone on that end is willing to try as well. It
may well be that this proposal is not feasible, but I would not wish to
declare so, until it has at least been tried.

I solicit your kind comments regarding this proposal together with any
remarks that you would care to make concerning the methodology, and
maintenance of such a system. The NR citizens are desirous of hearing
from you again, and for the most part are a pretty good bunch of people.
We are proud of the U.S. of course, but I believe that we also have a
great pride in the places that we have visited and what we have seen of
other countries. As I have said, Brazil, Azores and Madeira are among
the most beautiful that I have seen or heard of.

Vale, With Great Respect;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Proviniciae
From:	Thomas Gangale TGangale@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:33:48 -0700

Salve, Luci Metelle.

According to the Senatus Consultum passed on XVI Kal Aprilis MMDCCLI (17
March 1998), Thule Provincia is comprised of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and
Finland. To my knowledge, the other countries you mentioned have not been
incorporated into any provincia. Proposals for forming new provinciae
should be directed to the Consules.

Vale,
Marcus Martianus Gangalius
Aedilis Curule et Vebsitarius Maximus


-----Original Message-----
From: &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=180056219163082131036067066024166165018048139046" &g--------ckifiknow@--------&l--------&g--------mail--------l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=180056219163082131036067066024166165018048139046" &g--------ckifiknow@--------&l--------&g--------br> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 3:21 PM
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Subject: [novaroma] Proviniciae


From: &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=180056219163082131036067066024166165018048139046" &g--------ckifiknow@--------&l--------&g--------Pascal Thiele)

Salvete omnes,

I am not sure if this is the correct way to address NR ( so, please take
no offence, there is none intended).

But as I was recently looking at the map of provinciae, I was wondering
if it wouldnīt be good to split the provincia Thule into two.
Taking the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany to form Germania and leave
the Scandinavian countries to Thule?
Perhaps that would help to organize provincial action.

(Sorry if I am a bit difficult but consider itīs not my mothertongue)

The problem, you know, is that didnīt I look it up, I would not know who
the praetor for my provincia is.
Maybe,or quiet certainly ,its the language barrier, but I seem to be the
only citizen from Thule who is participating in this list, so that
communication between provincial members is tough.

I address the "public" and not only the senate, because I hope that I
may reach in that way some of my "neighbours".

I hope that I iniciated a fruitful debate and not a quarrel, as it might
easy become:-)



Bene valete

Lucius Metellus




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Subject:	Aedilis Plebis Antonius Gryllus Graecus is back
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:02:48 +0100

Salvete omnes

I'm writing to notify the Nova Roman people and magistrates that I'm back.

I have read the mailing list postings and I'm aware of what is being
discussed.

I would like to express my sadness for the resignation of Tribunus Plebis
Avidius Tullius Callidus.

Valete omnes

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedilis Plebis et Propraetor Lusitaniae

Subject:	Back Issues of the Eagle
From:	"ROBERT WILLIAMSON" robert@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:48:49 -0400

Salvete, omnes
Is it possible to get back issues of the
Eagle when one gets a subscription? I wish to start subscribing, but would
like to get the issues that I have missed. If someone could supply an answer
I would be grateful. I have asked this question once before, but no answer.
Vale ... A. Marcellus Cato
-----Original Message-----
From: James Mathe--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 2:27 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Grand Convocation / Regional (Provincial) Convocation


From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------br>
I have posted to the net my feelings regarding the subjects and I
support the Consul fully in encouraging Provincial Convocations within
one's province. The idea is a sound one both from the standpoint of
strengthening NR and from the standpoint of sharing friendships.

I suppose someone will say, oh here comes Marcus Audens with his current
"political line", but it seems to make sense. think that I fully
understand the desire of other nations to host a Grand Convocation, and
I have nothing against that.

However, like many of us, I do not have access to unlimited funds or
unlimited time. Then it stands to reason that we should try to do with
what we have, rather than what we wish we had. If the citizens in Great
Britain can put together a Grand Convocation, I don;t think anyone will
object. If they do put on such, I will do my best to attend, but I
would like to know that I am not going to Great Britain to meet three or
four members and have a meeting and make some suggestions to the Senate.
Been there and done that.

If, however, Provincial Convocations are held in separate provinces and
adverised on the net, then if I can go I will (may not get to Australia
in my lifetime-money / time-not desire!!!), if I can't it is not really
a loss, because I belong to another province. I am sure everyone
understands this, so why don't the Provincial Praetors and Ciizens get
together, make up a committee,and draw up a straw man calendar for the
provinces and submit them for consideration (not permission) and then go
about making it happen.

I have volunteered my home and the facilities of my town for such but
because of the location on the Eastern Seaboard, little notice will be
taken of it. I do not feel that way about any of you, and this is not a
one-upsmanship / political play of any kind. I would really like to get
to meet all who could come and strenghen NR through face-to-face working
together. If there isany possibility of your approval and vsitation
then I would be glad to go ahead. If you feel that this is a poliical
play to "cut out" the people f other countries, then you make the
arrangements and I will (if at all possible) visit you. It would be
much easier anyway to dazzle my friends with my personnality and wisdom,
rather than put on such a show.

My last comment is that although we have about 50 people in countries
other than the U.S. I never get a chance to talk with them. I talk
regularly with a gentleman in Eastern Europe who speaks very good
english, but even if I had to buy a language dictionary, he would be a
lot of fun to talk with and well worth the effort. I would defnately
lke to hear from these people even if they don't speak English (or
American!!). It would be fun I think to puzzle out what was being said.

Marcus Minucius Audens


Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


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Subject:	Brasilian Membership (and Thulean)
From:	Nicolaus Moravius n_moravius@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:19:18 PDT

Salvete Omnes!

I applaud M. Minucius' posting on improving communication with our Brasilian
citizens. Some of us could start posting in Latin (with English sub-titles)
(my Latin's very scrappy, but some of us seem impressively fluent, and it
would be a start). The Lusitanian provincial dialect our Brasilian friends
use as a mother tongue should be fairly comprehensible to any Latin-using
citizen who can lay hands on a Portuguese dictionary, and similarly, Latin
postings should be easier for Brasilian citizens to understand than the
barbaric German patois (Lingua Anglica) most of us Northerners habitually
use :-)

Is there a Nova Roma Brasilia Onelist? If so, maybe those of us who have
some Latin should apply to get on it. If there isn't one, maybe a
Lusitanian speaker could set it up? As a citizen of Britanniae Provincia,
I can vouch for the usefulness of a Provincial Mailing List as as means of
improving the cohesion of an outying province where many members have
neither time nor inclination to use the NR Main List much, if at all. The
same could apply, O Metelle, to the cives of Thule.

When I was a schoolkid, my history teacher told me a story of how as a young
British Army Liaison Officer in the Allied force occupying Germany in 1945,
he was responsible for running a small German town along with the new
(recently co-opted) Burgomeister, who spoke no English. My teacher spoke no
German. But both had studied Classics at university before the war and had
fair Latin - so, for several weeks until the Army came up with a
security-cleared interpreter, the civic administration was carried out
entirely - in Latin!

What has been tried and tested before, O Quirites, is surely a good idea to
run again?

Vivat ad multos annos in saecula lingua antiqua Romanorum!

(Valeteque),

Vado.

Subject:	Rome SIM
From:	Exitil@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:59:30 EDT

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Subject:	Perspective
From:	legion6@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:21:12 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete omnes...

This was posted a couple of days ago to a Celtic Christian List to
which I also subscribe. That List, too, has seen what the Chinese
curse calls 'interesting times'; and this message spoke so well to my
distress at some of the upheavals on the Nova Roma List, I thought I'd
share it with you. This is NOT evangelical at all (gads, I can't stand
those types either!!!) --just good food for thought about communities
in general, cyber- or otherwise.

<------------------------>
Message: 2
Date: 22 Jun 99 23:26:12 Sydney Standard Time
From: Fusion Gippsland <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=123176104115099153169158004248240208071048" >gippsland@--------</a>
Subject: the stages of community

How encouraging the last digest was. Some very adult "transactions". It
was refreshing to read to say the least.

Andi I think the new purpose statement you came up with is fine. I find
it difficult to stay on track with my thoughts and my journey (in terms
of what is appropriate to share). In some forums I am a part of we read
the goals and aims at the beginning of each meeting. Even Lions clubs
and other service clubs do this, it's just a way of keeping the purpose
clear in peoples minds. I wonder if we could have a brief statement
that helped us all to stay focused as a header or even a footer to our
postings?

With regard to what we are experiencing within this little electronic
community of ours! Let's not panic, it is very normal - even
predictable! All communities go through phases, the healthier the
community the closer it gets to reality.

Many of you no doubt will be familiar with Scott Pecks book "The road
less travelled" For any that are not I highly recommend you get a copy
(M.Scott.Peck. 1990.Arrow books ltd.20 Vauxhill bridge road, London
SW1V2SA). I haven't read it for a while, but I'm fairly certain it is
Peck that talks about these phases of community. (many others do as
well) The suggestion is that people find themselves for one reason or
another as a part of a group. At first they are little more than
individuals with some tenuous thread of commonality between them. As we
are social beings we don't tend to like this and we look for
"community" within our groups. In the early stages we are all very
polite this is sometimes called "pseudo community" being blunt about it
it is superficial at best. We can only maintain this superficial
community for so long, it requires great amounts of energy to keep
being polite!

Eventually the group will either disintegrate or move on from "pseudo
community" to a second phase (which I forget the name of). This second
phase is characterised by conflict! During this second phase the real
issues of life are at stake which are Intimacy and authority, some
would say Intimacy is about "is there anyone here that it is safe to
relax with and reveal my true self to" and that authority is
essentially about "whose view of the world will prevail" (sound
familiar to anyone?). This is still an essentially selfish stage in the
development of community, the individual wants intimacy and the
individual wants authority (some individuals are passive about this but
they generally attach themselves to someone elses intimacy &
authority). True community is expressed when issues of intimacy and
authority are dealt with. Again groups will either deal with these
issues, disintegrate or revert back to the safer and polite "pseudo
community".

The third phase which is "true community" has at its' heart our God
given capacity to see beyond our own needs and genuinely "see" the
other people (not just the masked polite person - but the real person,
whom sometimes the individual can not see of themselves! )

I believe our little community may be between the second and third
phase. Faced with a choice of revealing our true selves (a great risk).
If we take the risk and manage to experience intimacy together,
(acceptance of each other for who we really are) then issues of
authority (whose view of the world will prevail) will melt away,
neither I nor you will need to be "right" and my feeling accepted by
you (and my feeling ok about who I am or even who I fear I am!) will
not depend on you seeing things my way - because you will have accepted
me for who I am. True community is a safe place, it does not have
condemnatory or reactionary responses. True community is not pale grey
"everyone pretending to agree" either (that's pseudo community) In true
community I can agree or disagree with what you say and do and you can
hear me affirm your contribution, agree with your action or disagree
etc. None of which would be condemnatory or reactionary because I will
have seen you for who you really are and not what you say, how you
think, what you do or how you express yourself.

Well some of you may be more familiar with this stuff than me, I've
reported it how I've experienced it - perhaps you have something to add
to what I've said? There are other ways of explaining this process too
(illusion - disillusionment - reality) & (dependence - counter
dependence - independence - interdependence) are a couple that come to
mind, perhaps someone familiar with them or another model would like to
"pick up the baton and run with it?

The main thing to remember is that community is always hard work!

love
Chris.
<----------------------->

Yours under the Eagles,
---
__________ _<~) __________
<-\\\\@@@@@) /##\ (@@@@@////-> Märia Villarroel <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
<-\\\@@@@(#####@@@@///-> Historical Re-Creationist
<-\\\*##*///-> and Citizen of Rome
o---<<<<||SPQR||>>>>---o Latin lessons, History lectures
///\\\ Role-playing Games, too!

aka Lucius Marius Fimbria on the weekends

Subject:	Nova Rome at War? was "repost."
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:27:29 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 6/23/99 11:59:50 AM P--------ic D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113082020165082153015098190036129" >Exitil@--------</--------;
writes:

<< Just asking again, what would NR do if someone declared war on it. >>

Salvete!
Well like everybody else I kind of ignored the question, but as a military
historian it sort of nagged me. So here I was at 3:00 AM in my research
library scribbling notes.
To wit:
The first question to be asked would be why?
Wars are fought for three reasons. Extend territory, protect sovereignty,
and impose ideology.
What would anyone get for attacking NR? We have no true territory. We are a
cybernation. We have no sovereignty to loose, all our provinces are with us
voluntarily. If Thule left us tomorrow, there would not be a lot we could do
about it.
So it would be the third option, impose ideology, that would pose the most
danger to our beloved micronation. Since we are a pagan micronation, lots of
people don't like us. That word "pagan" just makes a lot of people see red
for some reason.
As an example, at a party of journalists recently, one Christian
fundamentalist accused Rome of killing Christ. I pointed out that if that
was true, Rome did the Christians a favor, it got the cult off the backwater
of the East, and into spotlight of Rome.
So assuming that a threat exists, how do they attack us? I suppose the enemy
could capture our database, learn where all the members reside and take us
out 1 by 1. (Hmmm good script idea!)
No if I was ordered to neutralize NR as threat, I'd start with the most
important thing to any nation after GNP, communication. There is where we
are most vulnerable. Take out the web page, and the Roma onelist and we are
blind and dumb.
I have 30 address of NR citizens on my data base. We may be able to continue
operations at a reduced rate, but our recruitment would fall off to almost
nothing. And that right now is the lifeblood of NR. Since we do not collect
taxes we have no true GNP except exports, and since the marketplace would be
disrupted, that too would cease to function. So the WEB page would be a key
target, as well as the personal that could restore it. (I'll bet Martinus
has sweaty palms right now! <G>)
Now what would be our response? First off we'd have to determine where the
threat
originated from. Then we would have to act. And act we would. We are
Romans! We don't like being pushed around. We'll push back.
First how does the Republic function in wartime? If we are using the ancient
Republic as an example, the following would probably happen:
1. The Consuls would summon the Senate.
This would be through e-mail, presumably all the Magistrates have the
individual addresses of the Senators. This would take time, but since this
is a cyberwar, the main objective of the enemy, the WEB site would already be
destroyed. So response time would not be so critical. I estimate 48 hours
before all the Senate would be contacted.

2. The Senate would meet.
Again this would be through e-mail or perhaps, and I prefer this option,
through a conference call via the telephone. This would be faster then
individual e-mails and IMs. Again it is presumed that all the Senators have
each other's phone numbers.
The Senate would have absolute power in this case. We citizens would have no
say. The Senatorial mission would be five fold. 1. Assign a Consul to take
charge
and oversee the intelligence arm of Rome to determine the enemy. 2. Assign a
Consul to organize the counterattack, to commence once the enemy was
identified and a casus belli issued. 3. Assign a Quaestor to act as liaison
between the Senate and people. This worthy would write dispatches explaining
to the populace what is going on. 4. Day to day functions in Rome would be
turned over to the ranking Praetor Urbanus. 5. Open the doors of the Temple
to Janius (virtually).

3. The mobilization of Rome's resources.

Thus by 72 hours, (Maybe less) Rome would be in the response phase. Rome's
brightest minds would be at work attempting to recognize the enemy, and
repair the damage to Rome's interstructure. Presumably the enemy would leave
trojan horses and worm viruses to hamper reconstruction and mobilization. We
would have to have virus experts disarm or neutralize them. Meanwhile, the
Consul in charge of Rome's response with the cyberexperts would be plotting
the counterattack. This would be the destruction of the enemies website and
the planting of our own viruses. (I understand the Praetor of SE province
has some real nasty ones.)
Once the enemy was identified and confirmed, a casus belli would be issued,
ordering the hostile power to back down, and restore the status que, with
reparations given to Rome. These reparations would be determined by the
Senate.

4. The Senate issues the Declaration of War.

If the hostile power did not back down, the declaration of war would be
issued. It's been sometime since I saw the Latin, so I'll paraphrase. "In as
much as the people of (insert hostile name here) have been guilty of a wrong
against the populace of Rome, and much as the Senate of the populace of Rome
have declared and decreed that shall be war with the (hostile name here),
therefore the Senate and People of Rome declare and make war upon the people
of (hostile name here)!

5. The Counterattack.
After this legitimacy was established Rome would counterattack. The best
Rome could hope to accomplish is MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction), that is:
proving that Rome can disrupt the enemy's communications as efficiently as
the enemy can disrupt Rome's. Hopefully convinced that they could not
eliminate Rome, they would withdraw from the conflict.

6. The Aftermath.
If the enemy requested a cessation of hostilities, first a truce (indutiae)
would go into effect suspending the war, then a peace commission would be
organized from ranking magistrates. They would meet (presumably in
cyberspace) with the ranking hostiles and a peace treaty (feodus) would be
proposed and details worked out.
The commission would return, and present their findings to the Senate. The
Senate in turn would ask for a vote of the comita centuriata, to issue a
"iussus populi" whether to accept the peace treaty.

Now granted this is all a flight of fancy but consider: Do we know all our
cyber experts in NR? Can we contact them if some (the gods forbid!) thing as
the above scenario was to occur? I'm a member of Martinus' web team as a
historical writer and architect of the virtual arena, but that all. I know
to three "experts" in NR. But for the many of us to which the computer is
our lifeline, I'm sure there are many more. Are they listed? Are they
registered? Do we have their phone numbers?
Therefore I leave you with this thought : "Remember Romans. If you desire
peace, prepare for war."

Velete
Q. Fabius Maximus

Subject:	Re: Nova Rome at War? was "repost."
From:	Exitil@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:45:15 EDT

Nice post ::chuckle:: Talk about information warfare...

Anyway, thanks to SFP and Cassius for some great answers to a very odd
question.

-Alex Novus

Subject:	Re: Back Issues of the Eagle
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 18:22:15 -0400 (EDT)

Salve. A. Marcellus Cato;

I have not responded to your question, as I am not sure of the answer.
The editor of the Eagle is Flavia Claudia who is a Senator, and a very
clever, busy and industrious lady. Her E-Mail is:

<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=174176066112038190112158203026129208071" >M--------oon@--------</a>

I know that she will do for you what she can, but I am not sure that all
of the past Eagles have been retained on disc or in files. I also know
that she has some unusual work hours, but I am sure when she next gets
back to the Onelist, she will get back to you. I have included her
E-Mail on this post so she will know what you know at this point.

I apologize for not answering immediately, but I thought it better to
give someone who knew more than I do about the situation a chance to
provide information about it. Your action in repeating the question was
a good one, because at any given time nobody really knows who is "on
duty" to answer these kind of queries. I have kind of taken on the
task, at least in a basic way, so that people will not think that they
are being ignored..

If you should not receive an answer to your question in a reasonable
period of time, then contact me again and I will dig a little deeper

Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Proviniciae
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:25:56 -0700

Salvete.

If I recall correctly, the last time the matter of a new provincia being formed came up it
was the Senate that decided. The Consuls would be the logical choice to propose the
motion, and their supporting it would be very helpful. Of course the fact of the current
situation is that there are five active members of the Senate, two of them happen to be
the Consuls, so having them on your side will help a bit.

Bene valete.
C. Aelius Ericius
Propraetor ad Californiam Provinciam
Pontiff



Thomas Gangale wrote:

> Salve, Luci Metelle.
>
> According to the Senatus Consultum passed on XVI Kal Aprilis MMDCCLI (17 March 1998),
> Thule Provincia is comprised of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland. To my knowledge,
> the other countries you mentioned have not been incorporated into any provincia.
> Proposals for forming new provinciae should be directed to the Consules.
>
> Vale,
> Marcus Martianus Gangalius
> Aedilis Curule et Vebsitarius Maximus

Subject:	Re: Nova Rome at War?
From:	pallasathene@--------
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:52:08 -0400 (EDT)

(I understand the Praetor of SE province
> has some real nasty ones.)

Salvete, omnes!

Alright, 2 things:

1. He's talking about COMPUTER viruses, just to clear that up and

2. I have 4,423 different viruses to choose from, they do everything from killing pixels to making little ambulances race back and forth on your screen! Choose your weapon! >Evil grin<

Just for the record, dearest Fabius, it's not big deal, I just thought I'd defend my reputation, or the lack thereof! LOL >wink<

-Minervina Iucundia Flavia
Propraetor SE USA Provincia



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Subject:	Nova Rome at War?
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:17:27 -0400 (EDT)

Salve; Minervina Iucundia Flavia;

It sounds to me as though you will be selected to be the senior on the
Consul's Planning Staff with an arsenal like that to hand.

What is it they say,"I'm not one of the "Big" guys, but the "Big" guys
don't mess with me!!!!! You have my vote my dear!!!!!!

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Nova Rome at War?
From:
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:41:36 EDT

4423 viruses.... heh. You make all of them or get some from others? And
second...you have way too much time on yer hands.

Subject:	Re: Nova Rome at War?
From:
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:38:07 EDT

Forgot my name again...::babble::


-Alex Novus, god of forgetfulness.

Subject:	Re: Nova Rome at War?
From:
Date:	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:38:57 EDT

Oh, and add a ::chuckle:: to the end of that post with the "too much time on
yer hands"...