Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: report
From:	Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 04:52:01 -0700 (PDT)

Oh my poor, dear Lucius!

This must be the final indignity, to have this toad Talking [sic] with you;
this creature who cannot sign his own name, who cannot capitalize when he
should, and does so when he need not, who lays down the law yet is ignorant
of it. I would have hoped that the Gods would be more merciful. Oh, that
it should all come to this!

I beg you sir, do not get in his way, or he will inflict further
compositional errors upon us!

Vale,
Martianus

At 12:38 PM 7/8/99 +0100, william wheeler wrote:
>Salve all
>
>
>
>
>
>I am Talking with Lucius
>vale
>
>
>
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm</a>
Mars Society California
The Martian Time Web Site
The Martian Ministry of Culture
Nova Roma
World GenWeb Calabria
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too)
The National Primary System
The Art of Darius


Subject:	Pagans in the Military Poll
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:00:00 -0400

Salvete Omnes,

I thought folks might be interested in an online poll being conducted by the
Army Times right now. The question is "Do you think that the military should
accomodate all forms of worship, including Wiccan 'pagan rituals' and Native
American ceremonies that require peyote use?"

I know this is something of an issue for a lot of Nova Romans (not the least
reason because we've got a lot of present and former military members), so I
thought people would like to participate in the poll.

It can be found at <a href="http://www.armytimes.com" target="_top" >http://www.armytimes.com</a>. Let your voice be heard!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator


Subject:	Re: WARNING #2
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:13:36 -0400

Salve,

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
>
> The trouble is it clearly is with his blessing to the extent that he
> chose to elevate this obviously unprepared and unknowledgeable individual
> to a priesthood and a magistracy! What sort of concern does this reflect
> for the integrity of either the Religio or the State?

Unprepared for the niceties of politics, perhaps, and overly enthusiastic,
but hardly unknowledgeable. Both our Pontifex Maximus, Marcus Cassius
Iulianus and I have spoken with Marcus Cornelius Felix at length; his
knowledge of Hellenic paganism is impressive to say the least. I'm confident
that he'll make an outstanding addition to the collegium pontificum.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator


Subject:	Status Report
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:39:06 -0400

Salvete Omnes;

At this time I would like to present a report of my progress in completing
the tasks assigned to me as Dictator by the Senate.

1) The immediate crisis has been resolved. Nova Roma is once again
functioning as an organization and the government has been restored through
Constitutional mechanisms.

2) The impasse between the government and the BoD of the corporation has
been resolved in principle, and a plan for the details has been presented to
the President of the corporation for review, wherein the officers and BoD of
the corporation will be the same as the magistrates and Senate of the State.

3) The tribes, required by the Constitution for both elections and passing
of laws, have been established.

4) A plan for establishing the centuries, required by the Constitution for
both elections and passing of laws, has been presented to my advisors for
review, both from an historical and practical point of view. Pending their
comments, I hope to have this completed by Monday.

5) The Constitution, whose ambiguities, structural problems, and flat-out
historical inaccuracies greatly contributed to the present situation, has
been rewritten and submitted to my advisors for review, both from an
historical and practical point of view. Pending their comments, I hope to
present it to the People for review and comment by Monday.

6) The Senate, whose limited membership (both numerically and in
geographical scope) has contributed to the feelings of disenfranchisement
among the people and to the present situation, has been expanded. (In the
new Constitution, the tribunes shall have the explicit responsibility to
keep the people informed of Senate business.)

6) In conjunction with the rewritten Constitution, procedural details are
being shifted from the Constitution itself to laws. These laws are currently
in the process of being written, and will make adjusting of minor details
much easier than having to go through the process of Constitutional
amendment.

Should everything go as I anticipate, I hope to be able to lay down the
office of Dictator on or about the 18th of this month, having fulfilled my
mission as assigned by the Senate and subject to their final review.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator


Subject:	Re: Pagans in the Military Poll
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 05:39:40 -0700

Thank you for this forward. I may forward it to some local groups.

Ericius


Subject:	Re: WARNING #2
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 06:01:13 -0700

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Unprepared for the niceties of politics, perhaps, and overly enthusiastic,
> but hardly unknowledgeable. Both our Pontifex Maximus, Marcus Cassius
> Iulianus and I have spoken with Marcus Cornelius Felix at length; his
> knowledge of Hellenic paganism is impressive to say the least. I'm confident
> that he'll make an outstanding addition to the collegium pontificum.
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Dictator

Germanicus, one of the things that the College of Pontiffs always went into on the matter
of applicants for any priestly post was their grounding in the _Roman Religo_. Cassius
was one of the most insistent on the applicants knowledge and familiarity with the Roman
Religio, not any other religion or discipline. I even believe that some people's
applications were "shelved" because while there was no doubt as to their being Pagan, they
were not Roman, or had not been involved with the Roman deities for any length of time.
When Lucius Equitius Cincinatus applied to the Collegium Pontificum for the positions of
membership in the College of Pontiffs and Flamen Martialis it was decided that while he
was superbly qualified to be the High Priest of Mars (called the most Roman of the Roman
Gods), Cincinatus should have more time working in and with the Religio Romana before
being granted full status as a voting member of the Collegium Pontificum. It has often
been said, to a larger extent than I agree with, that the Hellenic tradition and deity
conceptualizations, are not exactly interchangeable with the Roman Religio
characterizations of the Divine Ones. The Divine being the commonality through all
religions, particularly the open minded Pagan beliefs. Cassius had postulated a
training/familiarzation structure for the Collegium Pontificum for the purpose of
screening would be pontiffs and flamens. We would all share our knowledge, and learn how
things were done in this neck of the woods. Hellenic Paganism is not the Roman Religio.
I have heard, during the period of M. Cornelius Felix's talks with L. Cornelius Sulla that
Felix is the leader of a fair sized pagan group of his own. I do not doubt that he has
experience working with a group, he really should have learned how Romans do things before
he began giving orders to free people. Isn't it an interesting contrast? The chaotic
factions of Republican Roma and the structure and discipline of the Roman Army?


Subject:	Re: Address to the Senate: Let the law do its work.
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:00:57 +0100

Salvete Fabi et omnes

I agree with your address.

Valete

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Tribunus Plebis et coetera


Subject:	Latin or English
From:	william wheeler wuffa@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 07:19:38 +0100

I vote for the latin


Subject:	Holidays
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:22:33 -0500

Salvete,

I thought I would give a list of the holidays which are sacred to
Iuno. If anyone sees anything I have left out, please let me know.
These holidays will also be posted on the Temple of Iuno
community page:

March --

1--Kalendae March and the Matronalia

June--This entire month is sacred to Iuno

July--

1--Kalendae March (sacred to Felicitas, a personification of Iuno)

7--Nonas July -- Nonae Caprotinae (the Fig Festival) -- Ancillarum
Feriae (dedicated to Iuno Caprotina)

September--

13--Idus September (sacred to the Capitoline Triad)

October--

7--Nonas October (sacred to Iuno and Iupiter)

November--

13--Idus November (sacred to Feronia, a terrestial goddess of
fertility often identified as Iuno, she represents Penty or Aundance)

January--

1--Kalendae Januariae and the Festival of Iuno

February-- (the entire month is sacred to Iuno and Mars)

13 thru 21--The Parentalia (the Temple will be closed)
Amethystia Iunia Crystallina -- Iunonis Templique Sacerdote


Subject:	Ludi Apollinaris: Complete rules
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:53:08 +0100

Salvete,

As you may know, the Ludi Apollinaris stretch from July 6th to July 13th.
They included both gladiatorial games (we had them yesterday) and cultural
events such as theatre plays and literature contests.

A sugestion from civis Gn. Tarquinius Caesar urged me to institute the
latter contests. His pious words were:
"I can think of no better way to honor the God of light, the deadly archer,
divine Apollo."

As this contest is being held for the 1st time, the works presented shall
not be necessarily original, i.e. you can simply choose a text from a
ancient Roman author. Nevertheless, original works are encouraged.

As I have already posted, there are 3 contests:
- Poetry: July 11th
- Prose: July 12th
- Theatre: July 13th

The rules of the contests are the following:
- The work shall be posted both publicly to <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> and
privately to the Aedilis Plebis (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>) and Aedilis Curulis
(<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>) in the due day (see scheduling above) with:
- Subject = Ludi Apollinaris - X contest
(where X stands for Poetry, Prose or Theatre)
- Content = Latin text (optional) + English translation/text; followed
by the
names of the author and sender. In case that the author is not the sender
(i.e. the
work is not original) the complete reference of the text must be included.
- A sender can participate by sending one text only per contest.
- After the Ludi are over (after July 13th), the texts shall be evaluated by
a juri, and the
winner texts shall be published in the NR Web site.

The Latin text is optional. Nevertheless, inorder to motivate the learning
and use of this beautiful language, if the Latin version of the text is not
present, the first item of evaluation (see below) shall be set to 0.

The Aediles shall forward the texts to a juri constituted by the following
members:
M--------s C--------us Juli-------- (Pontifex M--------us) - <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------;
Minervin--------cundi---------------- (Sen--------x) - <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=197166235078158233169057046077006239136144139046209" >p--------s--------ne@--------</--------;
Caius Marius Merullus (--------s) - <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Gn-------- T--------inius C--------r (civis) - <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------;
Quintus F--------s M--------us (civis) - <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;

Evaluation rules from the juri concern the following items:
- Correctness of Latin language (from 1 (very bad) to 10 (very good))
- Literary wealth (structure/vocabulary/artifices) of the text (from 1 (very
bad) to 10 (very good))
- Ideas expressed in the text (from 1 (very bad) to 10 (very good))

The members of the juri shall forward their evaluations back to the Aediles.
Evaluation rates values (as given by each member of the juri) shall be
added. Original texts shall have a bonus of 20%.
The final results shall be compared for each category separately, and the
winners will have their texts exhibited in the Nova Roma Web page!!!

Valete omnes

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedilis Plebis et coetera


Subject:	Re: Concerning the Religio
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:16:51 -0400

I completely agree with Dex. I know I haven't been very vocal for the past
few months, but I felt somehow unimportant in my pursuits regarding Nova
Roma. I became a member for the religious aspect of Nova Roma, and so I
sought to give of myself to Nova Roma through religious service. I applied
for a priesthood many moons ago and never heard a response. I inquired
about it numerous times and after a while was told all the applications
were erased, as Crys mentioned before. Ceres is my matron goddess, and I
had wished to become the sacerdos cerealia. Graecus and I were working on
aspects of the temples together and he offered to help quicken the pace of
processing my reapplication, but to no avail. I was put on the backburner,
a citizen of Nova Roma just like any Senator, however political office
holders seem to have much more favor than any one else.

I also offered my help in maintaining the bookstore in the Macellum when
Pythia had requested volunteers to aid her in the burden of the website.
She gratefully accepted my offer but no one ever got back to me to tell me
what I needed to do to access the site. I stopped and took an inventory of
the discussions on the NR list. It was at that point I began to realize
that Nova Roma revolved mostly around politics, and since all I had to give
had nothing to do with politics, I was not truly of interest to Nova Roma.
And so my voice faded into the background as did all my previous effort.
Nova Roma wants politics, not religion.

At 15:21 07/07/99 EDT, you wrote:
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
>Dear Citizens,
>
>For sometime now I have been questioning the position of the Religio within
>the realm of Nova Roma amidst all the politics and games. I, and others,
>have seen our beloved faith paraded in front of us as a means of drawing us
>into citizenship and then being left waiting for some kind of fruition to
>happen.
>
>The Pontiffical College was never completely set up. Only 2 (now one) of
>appointed Augurs were selected. Priesthoods went unfulfilled. Rituals
never
>organized or executed. (and hey, I understand we are far between each
>other...but NR's purpose was to restore the Religio Romana and in this we
>have failed. We have done nothing to promote the Religio outside of NR to
>the public let alone on the inside to ourselves. Some of us keep to the
>daily rites of the Lararium but I believe this is as far as it goes).
>
>We did have one major accomplishment with the formation of the Vestal
order.
>After much debate, our beloved Flavia Claudia drafted a Vestal Proposal
which
>was adopted and put into affect. For one year, Flavia Claudia held the
>Vestal Flame for Nova Roma and continued to do so after her term was up.
>Alas, now she has left Nova Roma -- a victim of the politics that plagues
our
>micro-nation. And with her, the Vestal Flame has left as well.
>
>Citizens, we are in dark times. We have foregone our Republic in favor
for a
>Dictatorship. "IMPERIAL Rome Is Reborn". We are constantly bickering
>amongst ourselves and pointing fingers at those so often felt need blaming.
>And in doing so we have lost our connection to the Gods and Goddesses with
>whom we pledged allegiance. We have foregone our committment to the Religio
>Romana and this deterioration of our nation is our harvest!
>
>It is not my intention here to speak against those measures taken to "fix"
>our micro-nation. It is no secret that I do not favor a Dictatorship of any
>king (given Roman historiocity or not). And when I disagree, I will
>certainly be vocal about it. But so far I am willing to see how this all
>pans out. I can only hope that the visions (and I don't mean to go all
>Augery on you all) that I have been having regarding our new direction will
>NOT come to fruition. I truly pray to the Olympians that our REPUBLIC will
>shortly be restored.
>
>However, I feel it my duty as a citizen, as your Augur, as your friend to
>point out to you that we need to begin anew with a strong focus on the
>Religio. Without it, we are doomed to failure...again. This is not a call
>to dispell non-Pagans from Nova Roma, but as we have debated before, the
>Religio Romana must be upheld.
>
>I ask then, who will carry the Vestal Flame now that our beloved Flavia
>Claudia is no longer with us? When will we begin seeing live rituals
planned
>and performed by Provincia or Gens? When will we go forth into the
>macro-world and present our Religio?
>
>There are numerous Pagan organizations that are dedicated to educating the
>public about ALL FORMS of Paganism. Why do we not seek partnering with
them?
> Did Nova Roma act at all to the attack by Virignia Representative Bob Barr
>who seeks to ban Wicca from the military? If first Wicca, then what else?
>Religio? Asatru? Hinduism? Catholicism? Pentecostalism? Judaism? We
>have a greater calling, citizens, to uphold our faith not only in our
private
>homes and in our on-line micro-nation but to the macro-world as well.
>
>I seek response from others. How do you feel? What are your thoughts?
>Where do you see the Religio going and where do you want to see it go?
>
>The Gods are tired of calling...they want an answer!
>
>--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
>Augur, Nova Roma
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>Congratulations <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=051111161124092143015216190036129" >KNICKS@--------</a>. --------latest --------ist of the week.
><a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
>How is ONElist changing YOUR life? Visit our homepage and let us know!
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
----------------------------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=165212250009158116172098203108129208071" &--------rbianna@--------</a&--------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197212253112056209171056066140114002071048139" >proserpina@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704

"I will teach you to know yourself" -Persephone, as Queen of the Underworld


Subject:	Re: Religio Nova Roma
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:39:00 -0400

What are you talking about? Rome is not America. In ancient Rome the
CHURCH AND STATE WERE INSEPERABLE. Is this a hard concept for us to
understand? Rome was a church AND a nation, together. *Everything* the
Romans did had some religious aspect to it. They gave offerings to
numerous gods numerous times throughout the day.

"As in other cities of the Empire, life was intimately bound up with
religious cults, whether official, emotional or domestic in character... As
was appropriate in a Roman and Italian city, the Temple of Juptier, the
king of the gods, stood at one end of the Forum. There were also buildings
honoring deified emperors... These were somewhat formal cults of a national
and civic character. But what engaged the emotions of the Pompeians far
more deeply, as with millions of inhabitants of the Empire, were the
Mystery religions. For they promised salvation in the afterlife to their
initiates and were only, much later, prevented by Chrisitanity from
completeing what might have been a total takeover of the ancient world."

Grant, Michael and Antonia Mulas. "Eros in Pompeii: The Erotic Art
Collection of the Museum of Naples." New York: Stewart, Tabori & Chang,
1975.

This was from a case study of a small town preserved by the eruption of
Mount Vesuvius. The archeological finding of Pompeii and Herculaneum
revealed a great deal about the daily life of Romans. Surprise, surprise,
they were a religious bunch.

At 17:55 07/07/99 EDT, you wrote:
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113082020165082153015098190036129" >Exitil@--------</--------;
>
>I understand that the Religio Romana was very important to ancient Rome, and
>I believe in preserving it as much as the next person. However, I do see
the
>problem of Nova Roma seemingly focusing too much on it and it appears that
>Nova Roma is becoming more church than nation. The response "nation aspects
>will come in time" is my most frequent answer. I understand that it will
>take time, but shouldnt we at least be doing something, ANYTHING, to start
on
>the road to becoming a nation? Solidifying the religion does not make Nova
>Roma more nation-like, it makes it more like a church. This message may be
>insulting to some, but I don't mean it as insulting, I simply am trying to
>show my concern for the future of Nova Roma.
>
>-Alex Novus
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
----------------------------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=165212250009158116172098203108129208071" &--------rbianna@--------</a&--------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197212253112056209171056066140114002071048139" >proserpina@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704

"I will teach you to know yourself" -Persephone, as Queen of the Underworld


Subject:	Re: Pompous Little Toad
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:03:37 -0400

At 04:51 08/07/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: Gail and Thomas Gangale <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
>
>Salve, Pompous Little Toad!
>
>First of all, persuant to Article III, Section 6, Paragraph 2 of the
>Constitution of Nova Roma, I, an Aedilis Curule, veto the "lex" proclaimed
>by you, a Quaestor. But of course, your "lex" is illegal in any case.
So, you're saying that you want all the bickering to continue? Let's take
a deep breath and check our intentions here, particularly before we
speak... er write. Our new Pontefix had only the most esteemed intentions
and I praise him for his efforts. We need someone like him here in Nova
Roma, not more instigators and people who seem to thrive on Nova Roma's
discord. By excercising your ability to veto this "lex", what are you
trying to prove? Are you trying to prove that you're more powerful than
our pontifex? Or are you just insulted that he tried to make peace by
excercising use of legislation, even though he cannot. I know little about
Roman law, as it does not interest me, but if my Pontifex declares a lex
for pax, then I'm there with it!

>Secondly, I was quoting someone else's profanity, and that is a matter of
>historical record. You deal with it!
>
>Third, I am exercising my right of freedom of speech under the First
>Amendment on the Constitution of the United States of America, a document I
>hold in far higher esteem than any other ever written. I view my devotion
>to that document as the highest virtue, certainly one that is well beyond
>your comprehension.
Even Sulla took this lightheartedly. Let's just take another deep breath
here, how about a nice cup tea before writing angry words? One should
never write out of anger. Our Pontifex did not intend to insult anyone,
otherwise how could he be calling for pax?

We're all brothers and sisters here as citizens. In my tradition outside
of Nova Roma it is believed that we are born again amongst our own. How
many lives did we live in Rome together? How many of us have truly known
each other before? More than likely a good many of us. Let us work
peacefully together in this life for our common goal of reestablishing our
beloved *Pagan* Rome.

Bright Blessings to you all,
Orbianna

Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
----------------------------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=165212250009158116172098203108129208071" &--------rbianna@--------</a&--------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197212253112056209171056066140114002071048139" >proserpina@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704

"I will teach you to know yourself" -Persephone, as Queen of the Underworld


Subject:	Ludi Apollinaris: Poetry Contest
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:59:13 -0700 (PDT)

--- Antonio Grilo <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> wrote:
> A sugestion from civis Gn. Tarquinius Caesar urged me to institute the
> latter contests. His pious words were:
> "I can think of no better way to honor the God of light, the deadly archer,
> divine Apollo."

I wholeheartedly agree, and not just because I'm biased towards one of my
patrons, either!

And He'd be quite disappointed with me if I didn't enter, sooo....

> - The work shall be posted both publicly to <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> and
> privately to the Aedilis Plebis (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>) and Aedilis Curulis
> (<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>) in the due day (see scheduling above) with:
> - Subject = Ludi Apollinaris - X contest
> (where X stands for Poetry, Prose or Theatre)

This is an original work, BTW. :) I wrote it during the summer of my
sophomore year in college. 5 poofie points to the person who guesses which
college based on details in this poem.

-Kyrene
PS I graduated a month and a half ago.... :)

------

_The Bridge_
by Kyrene

water still falls on Turtle Bridge
I reach out mentally to that waterfall
Surprisingly cold on such a hot day,
and surface almost solid to the mind that touches it.
I think of all that I'm not supposed to know,
and that contrast between my black and blue ripped jeans
with the new polished bench
the writing in stone
JJ was here
the constant cycle of the water falling down
flowing down
back up
that constant waterfall
and all my swirling thoughts cannot hide
my confusion, my loss,
desire to know something
Other
than this constant cycle
My mind reaches out again to that cold water
on such a hot, hot blistering July day, and
I wonder about this mind and that of the reality around me.
My thoughts circle and envelope me
in that swirling darkness once more
and back again
-and I cannot bear it.
I get up and pass my hand through the water
Surprisingly cold on such a hot day,
and surface almost solid to the hand that touches it.
water still falls on Turtle Bridge....

===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar/Andreia *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andreia/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at <a href="http://mail.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://mail.yahoo.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Pompous Little Toad
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:15:24 -0500 (CDT)

I also wondered if this name-calling was really necessary. A
simple " you really can't do that because..." statement would have been
sufficient. So you didn't like the new pontiffs' attitude. Instead of
anyone flaming the list and being even more disruptive perhaps they
ought to take it up in the realm of private e-mail--- or is this a
taunting call for more petty arguement to go on and on endlessly into
the abyss of this e-mail list. Beyond that, the pontiff I am sure had
the best of intentions and as he did not stoop to personal insults I
don't see why anyone should act like that toward him. In short, let's
try to put egos aside in the future and have a little peace.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	Re: Status Report
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:23:13 EDT

In a message dated 7/9/99 8:37:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> writes:

<< Should everything go as I anticipate, I hope to be able to lay down the
office of Dictator on or about the 18th of this month, having fulfilled my
mission as assigned by the Senate and subject to their final review. >>

That's Great News!!!! : )

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Status Report
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:29:00 -0700 (PDT)

--- <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:
> << Should everything go as I anticipate, I hope to be able to lay down the
> office of Dictator on or about the 18th of this month, having fulfilled my
> mission as assigned by the Senate and subject to their final review. >>
> That's Great News!!!! : )

I say, congrats and thank you!

I'm sure that your position was not an easy one. Glad to hear that Nova Roma
is getting back on track. I look forward to getting further involved in it as
time goes on. :)

Valete et khairete,

-Andrea Gladia Kyrinia

===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar/Andreia *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andreia/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at <a href="http://mail.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://mail.yahoo.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Pompous Little Toad
From:	Thomas Gangale TGangale@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:36:07 -0700

Salve, Domitiane.

Since this fellow in question hardly ever bothers to sign his name, I had to
improvise a means of indentifying him that would be immediately obvious to
all, and so I am glad to see that you do understand to whom I referred.
Nevertheless, your point is well taken. I am not well enough acquainted
with the individual to conclusively determine either his size or to which
amphibious species he belongs. I apologize for the error.

As for the rest, it is my opinion that Cincinnatus must be FULLY restored!

Vale,
Marcus Martianus Gangalius
Aedilis Curule et Vebsitarius Maximus

-----Original Message-----
From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> [mailto:<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a>]
Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 10:15 AM
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Pompous Little Toad

From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)

I also wondered if this name-calling was really necessary. A
simple " you really can't do that because..." statement would have been
sufficient. So you didn't like the new pontiffs' attitude. Instead of
anyone flaming the list and being even more disruptive perhaps they
ought to take it up in the realm of private e-mail--- or is this a
taunting call for more petty arguement to go on and on endlessly into
the abyss of this e-mail list. Beyond that, the pontiff I am sure had
the best of intentions and as he did not stoop to personal insults I
don't see why anyone should act like that toward him. In short, let's
try to put egos aside in the future and have a little peace.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

How has ONElist changed your life?
Share your story with us at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	1 more time
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:43:30 -0500

Salvete,

I just need to know one more time:

Is Nova Roma going to be 'reconstructed' (minus slavery and the
nasty bloody war stuff (this email list notwithstanding) and whatever
was considered 'negative) or is it going to be more of an American
Institution? From the little I know (and believe me it ain't much)
Church and State were, if not 'inseperable' then they sure knew
how to work together. How many battles were held without some
gods blessing or another? Did the ancient Senators simply
disregard any warnings from Priests? Were the Priests really the
nobodys that they (we) seem to be from the latest post bickering?

I don't really care one way or another about the Senate, or anyone
held in government. The reason that I personally believe people
(when there are enough of them, anyway) ought not to hold more
than one office, governmental or political, PERIOD is that all these
offices in and of themselves, require so much attention, I don't
know how one or another of a bodys Responsibilities (it's
capitalized for a reason) could NOT be neglected, even slightly.

I don't mind one bit being 'nothing but a Priest' (paraphrase). I'm
pretty damn proud if it. If the government wanted to know what
Juno thought of this or that, I would be more than happy to consult
her. I would dare say our Augurs (did I spell it right this time?)
would be more than happy to do the same. Or our Priest to Mars.
Or ANY of the Priests.

I believe that not a little of our trouble inside of Nova Roma stems
from the (to my eyes anyway) horrible neglect of the gods. Nobody
has asked them Jack (so far as I know). I think they got pissed
and acted accordingly. Our gods are not gods to be taken lightly.
Iupiter has a smidgen of a temper as (I dare say) Mars. Juno -- I
won't even go there! The gods can get just plain nasty!!! Anybody
disagree?

Crys (getting off of her soapbox)


Subject:	.
From:	william wheeler wuffa@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 10:51:38 +0100

Salvete Ohmes
I am sorry that I overacted and gave up the office of Queastor!
Just that I wanted this squabbling on the list to be done with.
I wanted peace so we all could calm down.
The Dictator did not give his blessing about doing so.
Therefore I have resumed the position.
As for my spelling and pronunciation I was upset. When I'm upset, I
write sloppily. I guess it would be equivalent of a man who stutters
when he
is angry. (You may all laugh, now.)
I close by renewing my request. Let Pax prevail on the list until after
the
feast of Apollo. I cannot order it, but ask for it instead.
Velete
M.C. Felix


Subject:	Re: Status Report
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:45:58 -0500

On 9 Jul 99, at 8:39, Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Should everything go as I anticipate, I hope to be able to lay down the
> office of Dictator on or about the 18th of this month, having fulfilled my
> mission as assigned by the Senate and subject to their final review.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Dictator

I thought you were gonna do this for 6 months? You don't HAVE to
serve for 6 months? Coolness.

Crys
Amethystia Iunia Crystallina -- Iunonis Templique Sacerdotes


Subject:	Re: Status Report
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:46:34 -0500


Subject:	Re: .
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:53:38 -0500

On 9 Jul 99, at 10:51, william wheeler wrote:

> I close by renewing my request. Let Pax prevail on the list until after
> the feast of Apollo. I cannot order it, but ask for it instead. Velete
> M.C. Felix

THATS BETTER!!!

Pax

Crys


Subject:	Re: .
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:02:58 -0400 (EDT)

Salve; Quaestor and Priest M. Cornelius Felix;

Sir, that is what I have been waiting to hear. Your appeal has my
enthusiastic agreement and support.

I understand that you are new to your appointments and I sympathize with
that. However, I think that you will realize as a priest and as a
Magistrate that honor among friends, colleagues and fellow Romans must
be demonstrated as I have said often before.

I fully understand your desire for Pax, and your desire for a peaceful
celebration to Apollo. I honor him as well, though in a different way.

I ask you as well to carefully review your messages prior to sending
them, so that you will reflect honor and not ridicule upon your patron.
I find it necessary to do that in every post that I send, and still have
errors. E-Mail is a vicious master, and requires the utmost thought, to
look and sound as you wish to, not to make assumptions regarding the
knowledge of others, and not to assume responsibilities not yours to
assume.

I welcome you back onto the net, and although I am not a follower of
Apollo, I will include both he and you in my personal prayers for the
change he has wrought in you and your perception to follow that change
through.

Vale; M.Cornelius Felix, Priest and Quaestor;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: 1 more time
From:	BenBorgo@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:30:32 EDT

In a message dated 7/9/99 10:43:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
&-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166114056127135138082190036" >mater@--------&--------a> writes:

Salve,
<< I believe that not a little of our trouble inside of Nova Roma stems
from the (to my eyes anyway) horrible neglect of the gods. Nobody
has asked them Jack (so far as I know). I think they got pissed
and acted accordingly. Our gods are not gods to be taken lightly.
Iupiter has a smidgen of a temper as (I dare say) Mars. Juno -- I
won't even go there! The gods can get just plain nasty!!! Anybody
disagree?
>>

I for one know this to be true, they have been neglected(particular it the
taking of auspices, and physical sacrifice{I don't mean blood}), and hence
have given us toil. As of yet, we are lucky they love Roma so, else...who
knows. (My 2 cents)
Vale,
Gn Tarquinius Caesar


Subject:	Re: Holidays
From:
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:39:55 EDT

In a message dated 7/9/99 8:22:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
&-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166114056127135138082190036" >mater@--------&--------a> writes:

Salve honored Preistess,
<< March --

1--Kalendae March and the Matronalia

June--This entire month is sacred to Iuno

July--

1--Kalendae March (sacred to Felicitas, a personification of Iuno)

7--Nonas July -- Nonae Caprotinae (the Fig Festival) -- Ancillarum
Feriae (dedicated to Iuno Caprotina)

September--

13--Idus September (sacred to the Capitoline Triad)

October--

7--Nonas October (sacred to Iuno and Iupiter)

November--

13--Idus November (sacred to Feronia, a terrestial goddess of
fertility often identified as Iuno, she represents Penty or Aundance)

January--

1--Kalendae Januariae and the Festival of Iuno

February-- (the entire month is sacred to Iuno and Mars) >>

I believe the 10th of Oct. is sacred to Juno Moneta(along w/1st of June), and
that Juno Sororia had a festival on the 1st of October. Festivals in the
months you mentioned to be sacred include, 1st of Feb. to Juno Sospita Mater
Regina, and I believe the Kalends of every month was sacred to Juno. Some of
these festivals may have been officialized quite late in the Empire, of that
I'm not sure, but in my opinion the should be celebrated nonetheless. Hope I
could be of some help!

Vale,
Gn Tarquinius Caesar


Subject:	Re: Holidays
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:43:51 -0500

On 9 Jul 99, --------4:39, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------; wrote:

> I believe the 10th of Oct. is sacred to Juno Moneta(along w/1st of June),
> and that Juno Sororia had a festival on the 1st of October. Festivals in
> the months you mentioned to be sacred include, 1st of Feb. to Juno Sospita
> Mater Regina, and I believe the Kalends of every month was sacred to Juno.
> Some of these festivals may have been officialized quite late in the
> Empire, of that I'm not sure, but in my opinion the should be celebrated
> nonetheless. Hope I could be of some help!
>
> Vale,
> Gn Tarquinius Caesar

Thank you so much. I'll get to updating!

Amethystia Iunia Crystallina -- Iunonis Templique Sacerdote


Subject:	Re: Holidays
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:57:47 EDT

In a message dated 7/9/1999 11:41:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------; writes:

<< I believe the 10th of Oct. is sacred to Juno Moneta >>
Salvete,
Yes. It was her Sacred Geese that day in 390 BCE that warned the Roman
garrison that the Gauls were sneaking up the walls of the Capitaline. This
saved the last rement of Rome from occupation, and allowed the Romans to
ransome their freedom.
Valete
Q. Fabius


Subject:	(S) from the office of the hloy toad
From:	william wheeler wuffa@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:29:56 +0100

Salve Martianus
I have carefully studied your comments and while I realized I over
stepped my
bounds with you, I feel you have no right to continue to insult me, or
my
office.
I requested peace. That is all. I'm sorry that I phrased it as order.
I
now understand. Again I renew the request for peace during the holiday
of
Apollo.
Vale
M.C.Felix


Subject:	Re: (S) from the office of the hloy toad
From:	Thomas Gangale TGangale@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:29:15 -0700

Salve, Felix.

Pax. Gladly.

It could have been a lot worse. I could have called you Dan Quayle.

Vale,
Martianus

-----Original Message-----
From: w--------am wheeler [ma--------:<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125075047121158135036082190036" >wuffa@--------</a>]
Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 4:30 AM
To: NR list
Subject: [novaroma] (S) from the office of the hloy toad

From: w--------am wheeler <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125075047121158135036082190036" >wuffa@--------</a>

Salve Martianus
I have carefully studied your comments and while I realized I over
stepped my
bounds with you, I feel you have no right to continue to insult me, or
my
office.
I requested peace. That is all. I'm sorry that I phrased it as order.
I
now understand. Again I renew the request for peace during the holiday
of
Apollo.
Vale
M.C.Felix

--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

Having difficulty getting "in synch" with list members?
<a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
Try ONElist's Shared Calendar to organize events, meetings and more!

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: (S) from the office of the hloy toad
From:	AC1917@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:03:50 EDT

Salvete omnes!
It's very disturbing to see this level of infantile behavior and
name-calling (regardless of original provocation). Some of the citizens need
to learn the meaning of dignitas.

Camillus


Subject:	Re: (S) from the office of the hloy toad
From:	JimmyG1970@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:16:57 EDT

Salvete omnes!
I agree my distinguished brother, Camillus Severus. Perhaps some you
should spend more time learning about what is Roman then practicing your
barbaric arts. You should be sent to the Rhine where the Alemani or maybe
north to Britain where the Picti will show you how lucky you have it.

Marius Severus


Subject:	Re: 1 more time
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:15:49 -0400

Salvete Amethystia Iunia et alii

At the risk of incurring some wrath, I'd like to offer a differing
perspective on this.

It seems to me that Religio Romana consists basically of two dimensions:
public and household. There are public rituals and festivals (like the
current Ludi Apollinares), and there are household rituals that one conducts
at one's home altar or lararium. Please enlighten me on other dimensions, I
really do want to know what they are if they exist.

In ancient Rome, the public rituals and festivals were celebrated, well,
publically I guess. There were actual fora and city spaces to accomodate
people gathering together physically to mark holidays, right? Nova Roma
cannot offer citizens such spaces in which to celebrate, hence there is no
collective physical experience to unite us in celebrating public rituals and
festivals. This renders the marking of the festivals complex, especially
for newcomers lacking a tradition. I think that the advice of a
priest/flamen can be sought, and this is something that I have done on
occasion.

The complexity is greater in the case of the household dimension. How is
one to conduct a private ritual for the first time, never having seen it
done before? While it may be possible to research the issue in an academic
way, surely you can appreciate that to do so and actually follow through
with conducting rituals in the home is not easy. For some, it may be rather
awkward if they come from households with little or no religious tradition,
or a tradition alien to Religio Romana.

In light of these things, is it really surprising that the practice, or
perceived practice, of Religio Romana, is not growing exponentially?

Another consideration is that many Nova Romans, perhaps like many Romans of
ancient Rome, would not consult the Gods all the time, or even that
frequently. Is it wrong, or problematic, not to pray daily to the
Capitoline Triad or another grouping of the Gods? To put it another way,
how often do you think one must consult Iuno in order to avoid the disfavor
that you feel She now has for us collectively?

From: "Don and Crys Meaker" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166114056127135138082190036" >mater@--------&--------a>

AIC-Is Nova Roma going to be 'reconstructed' (minus slavery and the
nasty bloody war stuff (this email list notwithstanding) and whatever
was considered 'negative) or is it going to be more of an American
Institution?

GMM-Of course I don't know, and probably no single person, even Germanicus,
can say what will or will not be...well, maybe Germanicus can :). But I for
one hope that it does not evolve into an American Institution. That would
mean, to me, that it would have failed, for Roma preceded America and the
two are different things, despite the parrallels and similarities. And
America is far from the only modern nation with a vast heritage from Roma.

AIC-From the little I know (and believe me it ain't much)
Church and State were, if not 'inseperable' then they sure knew
how to work together. How many battles were held without some
gods blessing or another?

GMM-I probably don't know more than you, but I think that you're right,
major battles always would have been preceded by rituals to secure divine
approval/support. There were special priests in the early days that
conducted this function, right? Fetiales?

AIC-Did the ancient Senators simply
disregard any warnings from Priests? Were the Priests really the
nobodys that they (we) seem to be from the latest post bickering?

GMM-I doubt that priests would have been perceived as nobodies. For what
it's worth, I'm under the impression that the earliest leges were priests'
edicts. Can anyone with historical research support or refute that
assertion? In other words, I believe that, during the monarchy, a flamen
could very well have said "I declare a lex that there will be peace for such
and such period".

AIC-I don't really care one way or another about the Senate, or anyone
held in government. The reason that I personally believe people
(when there are enough of them, anyway) ought not to hold more
than one office, governmental or political, PERIOD is that all these
offices in and of themselves, require so much attention, I don't
know how one or another of a bodys Responsibilities (it's
capitalized for a reason) could NOT be neglected, even slightly.

GMM-Good point.

AIC-I don't mind one bit being 'nothing but a Priest' (paraphrase). I'm
pretty damn proud if it. If the government wanted to know what
Juno thought of this or that, I would be more than happy to consult
her. I would dare say our Augurs (did I spell it right this time?)
would be more than happy to do the same. Or our Priest to Mars.
Or ANY of the Priests.

GMM-I may be way off here and invite correction, but, I don't believe that
the Roman senate or magistrates would have officially consulted the Gods
very often, except as called for in observing frequent public rituals. Now,
it was a given that the senators and magistrates were supposed to be acting
in accordance with the Gods, but wasn't this symbolically stated during the
inauguration of consuls? At the start of the year, the new consuls would
preside over a ritual where an animal was sacrificed and the heavens would
be searched for signs of divine approval/disapproval, right? And so, the
senators and magistrates, under the direction of two consuls who had divine
approval, then steered Roma in accordance with Gods.

AIC-I believe that not a little of our trouble inside of Nova Roma stems
from the (to my eyes anyway) horrible neglect of the gods

GMM-Maybe, but I'm more inclined to agree with what Iulianus quoted "Our
faults have not been in our Stars, but in Ourselves". The senators and
magistrates, at least from my perspective as an outside plain ordinary
citizen, have been generally a bit secretive and uncooperative with each
other and citizens. I don't mean that as a condemnation of anyone, just as
an observation and a hypothesis as to why the whole thing recently was
declared a failure, destroyed, re-made and then became a dictatorship.

AIC-Nobody
has asked them Jack (so far as I know).

GMM-Well, that's the thing. Religion is a private thing for some people,
and, too, you were only recently made a priestess. I think that you'll find
that people will approach you for advice on conducting rituals, observing
holidays, et cetera, as time goes on. Unless this whole thing disappears in
a week or two.

AIC-I think they got pissed
and acted accordingly. Our gods are not gods to be taken lightly.

GMM-No gods are, if you call them gods.

AIC-Iupiter has a smidgen of a temper as (I dare say) Mars. Juno -- I
won't even go there! The gods can get just plain nasty!!! Anybody
disagree?

GMM-When you talk of the temper of the gods, I think of Greek mythology (no
offense to Hellenistic pagans, but that is the extent of my exposure to the
pantheon). When I think of Iuppiter, I think of Iuppiter Stator,
stabilizing force manifest. The strength that holds the Roman people
together in statehood. I think that such a deity would not desert Nova Roma
capriciously. I do think, however, think that Iupiter Stator would require
concerted action from the Roman people (us) to do our best. Have we been
doing that?

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Re: (S) from the office of the hloy toad
From:	"Rusticus" moman@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:26:21 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=100065242212067005015098190036129" >AC1917@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] (S) from the office of the hloy toad

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=100065242212067005015098190036129" >AC1917@--------</--------;
>
> Salvete omnes!
> It's very disturbing to see this level of infantile behavior and
> name-calling (regardless of original provocation). Some of the citizens
need
> to learn the meaning of dignitas.
>
> Camillus

I don't wish to rekindle the fighting, but I do yet assert that it
is entirely Roman not only to speak one's mind, but also to do
so at the expense of an adversary's feelings, and furthermore,
even to do so in a stratagem of disputation that is now termed
'ad hominem'. Cicero, though he may never have argued more
eloquently than Gangalius recently did, certainly argued more
scornfully and mordantly. One of his works, Pro Caelio, was
composed singularly as a personal attack against Clodius; and
a reading of Cicero's finer moments will be a instruction in the
proper way to insinuate personal attacks into a plausibly factual
argument. That insults are undignified is purely a modern concept.
The tactic of reducing an opponent, and not his argument, to
an absurdity was an accepted one in the pugnacious Roman
style of disputation.

Now that I have dissented from your statement that derision
has no place in Roman public-speaking, I readily consent with
you and everyone else that the new Pontifex merely fumbled
and misspoke. He seems anything but overbearing, and after
reading his meek and effusive apologies, I wonder how such
a man could ever have summoned the requisite temerity to
sound as he did in his initial 'Warning #2' message. You may
form your own conclusion, but mine is that he composed it
while either off his medications or upon them, depending on
the legal status of the particular substances taken. Regardless
of the reasons that we conclude, it is over and recriminations
ought to be prudently hoarded up; and forgiveness abundantly
dealt out.

Regards,
Rusticus


Subject:	Religio
From:	Chad Kieffer ckieffer@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:34:20 -0500 (CDT)

Salvi sitis!

I don't know the proper channel to make a Nova Roma web page
suggestion or correction, so I'm sending this to the list for now. There
is a html error on the Nova Roma web page at
<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/deities.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/deities.html</a>
that is preventing the page from completely loading.
Also, what is the possibility of creating a second, separate
listserv list for the priests and priestesses of Nova Roma, as well as
those interested in becoming priests and priestesses, and those interested
strictly in the Religio? It could serve as a resource for trading
rituals, liturgies, ritual leadership ideas, etc. Perhaps it could be
moderated as well, in order to maintain a more reverent tone, and to
prevent cross-posting and spam? I'm not trying to separate the
religion from politics -- I just thought it might help to have an
additional separate resource for the spiritual/ritual leaders and
aspirants. Just a thought. Thanks!

Bene Valete!
C Cordius Symmachus

---------------------------------------------------------------
"In specie autem fictae simulationis sicut reliquae virtutes item pietas
inesse not potest..." -- Cicero, _De Natura Deorum_ I.ii


Subject:	Re: Religio
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:38:24 -0700 (PDT)

--- Ch--------ieffer <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219202020056021131184061203140129208071" >ckieffer@--------</--------; wrote:
> Also, what is the possibility of creating a second, separate
> listserv list for the priests and priestesses of Nova Roma, as well as
> those interested in becoming priests and priestesses, and those interested
> strictly in the Religio? It could serve as a resource for trading
> rituals, liturgies, ritual leadership ideas, etc. Perhaps it could be
> moderated as well, in order to maintain a more reverent tone, and to
> prevent cross-posting and spam? I'm not trying to separate the
> religion from politics -- I just thought it might help to have an
> additional separate resource for the spiritual/ritual leaders and
> aspirants. Just a thought. Thanks!

If such a list is created, let me tell you that I'd be your first *HIGHLY*
enthusiastic volunteer!!

Valete et khairete,

-Andrea Gladia Kyrinia

===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar/Andreia *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andreia/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at <a href="http://mail.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://mail.yahoo.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Religio Romana - (was-1 more time)
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:15:33 EDT

In a message dated 7/9/1999 2:25:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:

> At the risk of incurring some wrath, I'd like to offer a differing
perspective on this.

>It seems to me that Religio Romana consists basically of two dimensions:
public and household. There are public rituals and festivals (like the
current Ludi Apollinares), and there are household rituals that one conducts
at one's home altar or lararium. Please enlighten me on other dimensions, I
really do want to know what they are if they exist.

Cassius:
While those ARE two major aspects of the Religio Romana, they are most
certainly not the only aspects. The largest "third" aspect you've left out is
worship at the Temples - a little like describing Christianity without Sunday
services!

The Lararium was the center of religion for the individual families of Rome,
but the Temples were the mainstay of religion for public life. Ancient Roman
temples were different from the modern concept of a church - the worshippers
did not gather inside the temples en masse to listen to sermons, etc.

The ancient Temples were LITERALLY the dwelling places of the Gods. In each
temple there was a "cult statue"... a specially created figure of the deity
which had been "magically" prepared to house the spirit of the God or Goddess
it depicted. Even in the earliest days, when the gods were considered to be
faceless powers, or "numina", there were rough cult statues in the major
temples themselves. Within these temples the awareness of the god was
considered to dwell... and the duties of the priesthood maintaining the
temple included caring for the deity, making daily offerings, etc. The People
were of course allowed to visit the temple, seek assistance from the priests,
etc. However it was done on a more individual basis as the Temple was made to
house deity, not a "congregation".

In additon to the major festivals one finds in the Roman calendars, there
were a host of minor holy days. These were days sacred to the individual
deities. Those devoted to a deity would gather for religious services held
*outside* the temple, which would include offerings, prayers, etc. Those
faithful to the gods were involved with them in a public way on a very steady
basis... not merely worshipping at home and then taking to the streets on the
occasion of Festival Games or whatever.

Basically, ancient religion had all the aspects to it that modern religion
has, with the exception of gathering together at the Sabbath, which is a
tradition that came from the East. People visited the temples, they prayed,
they made offerings to the gods, they were involved in religious community.
Modern religion didn't just make up all its various ways of spiritual
expression... it took them from the ancient paths! Also worth mentioning are
the various Mystery Religions, such as the cults of Mithras, Isis, etc. In
those people did gather together for communal rites and ritual on a regular
basis.

> In ancient Rome, the public rituals and festivals were celebrated, well,
publically I guess. There were actual fora and city spaces to accomodate
people gathering together physically to mark holidays, right? Nova Roma
cannot offer citizens such spaces in which to celebrate, hence there is no
collective physical experience to unite us in celebrating public rituals and
festivals. This renders the marking of the festivals complex, especially
for newcomers lacking a tradition. I think that the advice of a
priest/flamen can be sought, and this is something that I have done on
occasion.

Cassius:
Public space isn't really that hard to find, especially considering that any
gatherings of the Religio at this stage won't be with vast crowds of people.
Patricia Cassia and I have been able to do rituals with 15-30 participants
right at our home, and hopefully others can manage similar space. Anyone
practicing the religio alone in the interim would simply be participating in
the Festivals as a part of the Household religion in any case!

>The complexity is greater in the case of the household dimension. How is
one to conduct a private ritual for the first time, never having seen it
done before? While it may be possible to research the issue in an academic
way, surely you can appreciate that to do so and actually follow through
with conducting rituals in the home is not easy. For some, it may be rather
awkward if they come from households with little or no religious tradition,
or a tradition alien to Religio Romana.

Cassius:
If anyone has questions on procedure, they may be addressed to the
Pontificial College, or to me personally. None of the household rites are
terribly complex, and are easy enough to learn.

> In light of these things, is it really surprising that the practice, or
perceived practice, of Religio Romana, is not growing exponentially?

Cassius:
It isn't?? That's shocking. I thought we went from six "known" practitioners
to well over 150 (probably more like 190 or so) in the space of a year. As
the website grows and more people share the Religio, growth is bound to
continue...

>Another consideration is that many Nova Romans, perhaps like many Romans of
ancient Rome, would not consult the Gods all the time, or even that
frequently. Is it wrong, or problematic, not to pray daily to the
Capitoline Triad or another grouping of the Gods? To put it another way,
how often do you think one must consult Iuno in order to avoid the disfavor
that you feel She now has for us collectively?

First of all, I can't imagine that Iuno holds any of us in disfavor. The Gods
of Rome have been ignored for over a thousand years. Now, a young nation
begins to give them the recognition and respect that they have been due for
so many centuries... there would be no reason whatever to turn away from
because we might faulter on occasion in our first few years!

As far as how often one must practice the worship, this is a matter where the
Religio may guide, but not demand. Ancient tradition asks a few short
religious acknowledgements each day - and truly these aren't difficult when
one takes the time to do them regularly. However, the modern world is much
different than the ancient one... personal scheduling is far different than
it was in ancient Rome! There is no quick and easy answer - but I would say
that anyone who remembers the Gods as they can, and honors them with a pure
and dignified heart, will not be turned away by them.

I very much recommend that anyone seeking to know more about the worship read
the volume "On The Gods And The World", written by Sallustius in 360 AD. It
has much to say on the makeup of both Roman religion, and how the religion
may be approached.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

>>


Subject:	Re: Religio Romana - (was-1 more time)
From:	BenBorgo@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:44:03 EDT

Salvete,

Just to add to what Cassius has already stated...many of the Temples set up
in our Internet medium, have chat rooms, or prayer books, or both, set up so
that one can offer daily prayers, either as a group (something that would be
nice to see), or as individuals. I can think of several online temples that
offer these mediums of exchange...perhaps it may be a good idea for one of
the pontiffs to compile a list of links to the online temples of Nova Roma,
and a section of the page dedicated solely to this, and a good idea for the
preists or preistesses of each temple to set up a calander of festival days
when 'live' gatherings will be held where people can share their prayers as a
public effort(via Chat room). The Gods may not be angry with us, but to
answer Merullus' question 'Are we doing our best?' I'd be inclined to say no.
Just an idea...

Valete,
Gn Tarquinius Caesar


Subject:	Re: Religio Romana - (was-1 more time)
From:	Diomus@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:49:24 EDT

Salvete

perhaps it may be a good idea for one of
the pontiffs to compile a list of links to the online temples of Nova Roma,
and a section of the page dedicated solely to this, and a good idea for the
preists or preistesses of each temple to set up a calander of festival days
when 'live' gatherings will be held where people can share their prayers as a
public effort(via Chat room).

I couldn't agree with you more! This sounds like a great idea.

Flavius Lucianus Diomus


Subject:	Re: Pompous Little Toad
From:	JimmyG1970@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:51:31 EDT

Salve!

Since when does the US constitution have anything to do our Roman
constitution. I'm not slighting our American Constitution but this is Nova
Roma not the US! If you feel so strongly perhaps you should renounce your
citzenship to our great Republic!

Gaius Severus Marius


Subject:	Re: new Title
From:	JimmyG1970@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:02:04 EDT

Salve!

All of Rome should draw out their swords and defend the res publica and
dignatas for you defile it with crude and insulting remarks that disparge
others for wanting Pax. This is either Roman nor civil. The gens Severia will
no longer acknowledge you or your Gens

Gaius Severus Marius Germanicus
Paterfamilas Gens Severia


Subject:	Re: Latin or English?
From:	JimmyG1970@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:04:38 EDT

Salve! Most honored Dictator,

After careful consideration the Gens Severia suggests why not both. Since
English is the lingua franca, why not give us the chance to learn the proper
latin equilavents?

Sincerely,

Gaius Severus Marius


Subject:	Re: new Title
From:	Diomus@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:16:28 EDT

Salve Paterfamiliasof Gens Severia,

Might I inquire which gens that it is that you and gens Severia are
refusing to acknowledge in the name of Pax? I fear that your actions may be
too bold. If you pit you Gens against another Gens then you will be the once
who will be disrupting pax and bringing even more division to our glorious
nation. Be it as it may but you will be the one who will have to answer for
this.

Flavius Lucianus Diomus of gens Luciania


Subject:	Re: (S) from the office of the hloy toad
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 16:56:44 -0700

[The following is meant as a humorous compliment. Activate humor sub-routine.]
ref. the subject line: The man has a sense of humor, and he can direct it at himself, and
he acknowledges his mistakes. Ye Gods! I wonder if he is in the wrong place.

And I'll stop right there.

Ericius


Subject:	Re: Religio Romana - (was-1 more time)
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:30:28 -0500

On 9 Jul 99, --------8:44, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------; wrote:

> and a good idea for the
> preists or preistesses of each temple to set up a calander of festival
> days when 'live' gatherings will be held where people can share their
> prayers as a public effort(via Chat room).

I set up 2 in the last 2 days? What else should I do. The holidays
(not the updated list) is in the Temple of Iuno. Been there since
this morning.

Crys
Amethystia Iunia Crystallina -- Iunonis Templique Sacerdote


Subject:	Re: Status Report
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 17:34:18 -0700

Salve Flavius Vedius Germanicus, Dictator.
Salvete Quirites.

My comments are after the quote.

[Major Snippage]

> Should everything go as I anticipate, I hope to be able to lay down the
> office of Dictator on or about the 18th of this month, having fulfilled my
> mission as assigned by the Senate and subject to their final review.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Dictator

Not on the 18th of July, XV Kal. Sextilis. It is a day of ill omen, a black day (dies
ater), for Roma.
It is the day that the Roman army was defeated at the River Allia in 390 bce by the Gauls
and led to the capture of Roma.
It was still considered ill-omened (dies religiousus) in Cicero's time. Germanicus, lay
down the dictatorship on another day.
Anyone who has had the stomach and the patience to read my posts since the crisis began
will know that I abhor dictatorships. It might be 20th Century baggage I'm carrying (we
are Not an SCA type group, we are in the present day), but the Goddess Liberta is one who
I have been worshipping for my entire life. -- I've just stopped myself from going on
about the good and the bad of the present situation because I am calling for the end of it
to be at a propitious time. At the least, Not on an ill-omened day in Roman history.

Yes, Germanicus, you said "on or about"-- go for the "about" not the "on". On 17 July
(XVI Kal. Sextilis) is the fastus of Honos, of the Temple of Honos et Virtus. This seems
a propitious day. Another one, which might fit in with what we hope for the future of our
res publica is on 22 July (XI Kal. Sextilis) is a fastus of Concordia, the first temple
was vowed to Concordia "to celebrate the ending of the struggle between patricians and
plebeians, a _concordia ordinum_". Of course there is always the end of the ludi
Apollinaris. ...
Just Not on Alliensis dies. Please.

Valete omnes.
C. Aelius Ericius
Pontifex


Subject:	Re: Holidays
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 17:46:14 -0700

Hi Crys & Don & kids

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------; wrote:

> and I believe the Kalends of every month was sacred to Juno. Some of
> these festivals may have been officialized quite late in the Empire, of that
> I'm not sure, but in my opinion the should be celebrated nonetheless. Hope I
> could be of some help!
>
> Vale,
> Gn Tarquinius Caesar

According to my H.H. Scullard book_Festivals and Ceremonies of the Roman Republic_ all of
these were observed during the Republic, and most of them in the principate, though with
less understanding as time went on.

The Kalends of each month Was sacred to Iuno. Some of them were "doubly" sacred,
significant.

Hope this helps a tad.

Ericius


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Latin or English?
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:22:08 -0500 (CDT)

My vote would be for English with Latin subtitles. I don't think we
would lose anything from doing this. I don't see the Rooman Catholic
Church using Latin titles for their clergy for example. Did they lose
anything? To the contrary I think they actual didn't seem as foreign to
the local people in various parts of the world using titles more common
to each region. In a minor way, use of Latin or any other language not
native to local people just helps with a certain unintentional
alienation, though perhaps I could be wrong.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	Things my Mother Taught me
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" mater@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:27:30 -0500

I ask, would a Roman Matron teach these things? <G>

> Things My Mother Taught Me
>
> My Mother taught me LOGIC...
> "If you fall off that swing and break your neck, you can't go to
the
> store with me."
>
> My Mother taught me MEDICINE...
> "If you don't stop crossing your eyes, they're going to freeze
that
way."
>
>
> My Mother taught me TO THINK AHEAD...
> "If you don't pass your spelling test, you'll never get a good
job!"
>
> My Mother taught me ESP...
> "Put your sweater on; don't you think that I know when you're
cold?"
>
> My Mother taught me TO MEET A CHALLENGE...
> "What were you thinking? Answer me when I talk to you.
Don't talk
back
> to me!"
>
> My Mother taught me HUMOR...
> "When that lawn mower cuts off your toes, don't come
running to me."
>
> My Mother taught me how to BECOME AN ADULT...
> "If you don't eat your vegetables, you'll never grow up."
>
> My mother taught me ABOUT SEX...
> "How do you think you got here?"
>
> My mother taught me about GENETICS...
> "You are just like your father!"
>
> My mother taught me about my ROOTS...
> "Do you think you were born in a barn?"
>
> My mother taught me about the WISDOM of AGE...
> "When you get to be my age, you will understand."
>
> My mother taught me about ANTICIPATION...
> "Just wait until your father gets home."
>
> My mother taught me about RECEIVING...
> "You are going to get it when we get home."
>
> And my all time favorite thing-JUSTICE
> "One day you will have kids, and I hope they turn out just like
YOU.
> Then you'll see what it's like."
Amethystia Iunia Crystallina -- Iunonis Templique Sacerdotes


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Religio Romana - (was-1 more time)
From:	"Darth Vilmur; Dark Lord of The Sith" darth_vilmur@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:05:05 -0700

well,
at the temple of jupiter, i have aan almost completed list of holy days and
festivals as well as chat message boards and prayer
books.....http:/www.angelfire.com/ca3/OLYMPUS
Californius
ps.this has all been there for a few months now, but i have not worked on it
much latley due to time constraints

Don and Crys Meaker wrote:

> From: "Don and Crys Meaker" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166114056127135138082190036" >mater@--------&--------a>
>
> On 9 Jul 99, --------8:44, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------; wrote:
>
> > and a good idea for the
> > preists or preistesses of each temple to set up a calander of festival
> > days when 'live' gatherings will be held where people can share their
> > prayers as a public effort(via Chat room).
>
> I set up 2 in the last 2 days? What else should I do. The holidays
> (not the updated list) is in the Temple of Iuno. Been there since
> this morning.
>
> Crys
> Amethystia Iunia Crystallina -- Iunonis Templique Sacerdote
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> How has ONElist changed your life?
> Share your story with us at <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Holidays
From:	Daniel Dreesbach dreesbach@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:16:23 -0700 (PDT)

Is there any significance by being born in June

--- <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------; wrote:
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 7/9/99 8:22:41 AM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166114056127135138082190036" >mater@--------&--------a> writes:
>
> Salve honored Preistess,
> << March --
>
> 1--Kalendae March and the Matronalia
>
> June--This entire month is sacred to Iuno
>
> July--
>
> 1--Kalendae March (sacred to Felicitas, a
> personification of Iuno)
>
> 7--Nonas July -- Nonae Caprotinae (the Fig
> Festival) -- Ancillarum
> Feriae (dedicated to Iuno Caprotina)
>
> September--
>
> 13--Idus September (sacred to the Capitoline Triad)
>
> October--
>
> 7--Nonas October (sacred to Iuno and Iupiter)
>
> November--
>
> 13--Idus November (sacred to Feronia, a terrestial
> goddess of
> fertility often identified as Iuno, she represents
> Penty or Aundance)
>
> January--
>
> 1--Kalendae Januariae and the Festival of Iuno
>
> February-- (the entire month is sacred to Iuno and
> Mars) >>
>
> I believe the 10th of Oct. is sacred to Juno
> Moneta(along w/1st of June), and
> that Juno Sororia had a festival on the 1st of
> October. Festivals in the
> months you mentioned to be sacred include, 1st of
> Feb. to Juno Sospita Mater
> Regina, and I believe the Kalends of every month was
> sacred to Juno. Some of
> these festivals may have been officialized quite
> late in the Empire, of that
> I'm not sure, but in my opinion the should be
> celebrated nonetheless. Hope I
> could be of some help!
>
> Vale,
> Gn Tarquinius
> Caesar
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> Having difficulty getting "in synch" with list
> members?
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> Try ONElist's Shared Calendar to organize events,
> meetings and more!
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Religio Romana - (was-1 more time)
From:	BenBorgo@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:20:56 EDT

In a message dated 7/9/99 7:06:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166091165042237215056001163243012136219139046209" >darth_vilmur@--------</a> writes:

Salvete!
<< at the temple of jupiter, i have aan almost completed list of holy days and
> festivals as well as chat message boards and prayer
>books.....http:/www.angelfire.com/ca3/OLYMPUS
>Californius
>ps.this has all been there for a few months now, but i have not worked on it
>much latley due to time constraints
>
>
>
>
> I set up 2 in the last 2 days? What else should I do. The holidays
> (not the updated list) is in the Temple of Iuno. Been there since
> this morning.
>
> Crys
> Amethystia Iunia Crystallina -- Iunonis Templique Sacerdote >>

Whoa..ouch! Hey guys, I know you're there, I just didn't wanna single people
out!:) I've acctually seen both Temples and in fact, the two of you are part
of my inspiration here! Just tryin to get everyone else using the supurb
resources you've provided...maybe we can get a 'Avenue of Temples' set up on
the NR webpage?

Pulling my foot outta my mouth,
Gn Tarquinius Caesar