Subject:	East Europ. LIMES Provinciae]
From:	Marcus Prometheus fresco@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:51:32 +0300

Re: [novaroma] East Europ. LIMES Provinciae (Marco Guasti , Thu 5:47)
To:
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=180166080058082135130082190036" >hadji@--------</a>


hadji wrote:
>
> Salve amice!
>
> I am really glad to wellcome you in NR.

> It is great another member from the East join us. I thank you for your
> support and for your very good notes.

Marcus Prometheus: Thank you very much, you are too kind.

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Marcus Prometheus in the firts message wrote:
> > TRANSGERMANIA is more difficult to define, but neverthless even more
> > necessary to be re-defined so we could use BALTIA

Macedonicus wrote:
I agree with you that the name must be exchanged, but I think White
> Russia is better to unite with Russia, Poland to become into POLONIA and
> Baltic states into separately NR province BALTIA (as you suggested).
> Poland + Baltic states is not a good combination like as White Russia +
> Baltic states.

Marcus Prometheus:
In Nova Roma geographic speack (peoples names too) we can observe that
everybody chooses consistently the old latin name where possible like
Gallia instead of Francia, Lusitania instead of Portugal, even our
shared proposals which seem already to be appreciated by the Dictator's
are Sarmatia and not Russia, Scytia and not Ucraina, so, for
consistency, the more difficult and exotic Vendia has a sense more than
Polonia.
But do you Know that the official language of the kingdom of Poland has
been for centuries LATIN ?
Then they were volontarly a LATIN KINGDOM for centuries!
As I feel Poland and Polish people so close just like all Latins I
wouldn't object too much if superior authorities would make an exception
and choose the modern name for Poland. Again perhaps Polish present or
future NOVA ROMA citzens might be usefully consulted too if our SPQR
could accept both possible choices .

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Marcus Prometheus first message:
> > The best {name choice) looks to be "BALTIA et VENDIA" which includes also Whithe
> > Russia as it was at its beginnings part of Lithuania ( 1250 )and keeps
> > even now some heraldic symbolism from the heraldry of Lithuania (the
> > knight and the signs on his shield)

Macedonicus wrote:
> I am afraid I can not agree with you as the signs on the White Russian
> shields are originated from the Germans Orders (Teutonic etc.). So
> Lithuania begin to expand 2 ceturies later.

Marcus Prometheus:
The olnly iconographic and historic sources I remember I saw do not
point in that direction,
and here in Romania I don't have my heraldry books to go deeper so could
you please
tell me from which iconographic and also from which historic sources you
found a link
between the Teutonic Order prior of 1200 and Bielorussia ?
If there is something new to learn I am always ready to learn it (but by
proofs please),
so until then I remain to the facts that
1) the ancient Duchy of Lithuania comprised all of
White Russia and even a large part of Ukraine, whilst
2) the Teutonic Order never dominated any Bielorussian Land and neither
I can guess (until the proof of the contrary, of course) any such
friendship betweeen old Slaves from present White Russia and the
Teutonic Order,
traditional foe of the BALTES (Prussians) but also pf the SLAVIC peoples
(Polish).
3) Bielorussia or perhaps only Bielorussian indipendentists seen
personally on TV with flags (on which I have note, but in Italy, not
here) adopted at some point a knight riding an horse, very similar to
the traditional Lithuanian knight, well known since centuries, and
being also the present coat of arms of Lithuania.
4) The indepentist Bielorussian flag has 3 equal orizontal stripes of
white, red, white.(They have now been suppressed and substituted by the
old soviet era "Republican" flag). These are the same red and white of
colors of the Lithuanian coat of arms of the knigth (They are the colors
of Poland too)
5) The teutonic order colours are just black and white, black cross over
white field (or mantle or shield)
Sometimes they where fimbriated gold (narrow border), but this is
secundary, more a decoration than a symbol
So where is the link with the Teutonic order?

------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcus Prometheus first message:
> > As for ASIA CENTRALIS certainly russians would prefer to be called
> > SARMATIANS (even among barbarians there is barbarian and more barbarian!) ;-)

Macedonicus:
> I would like to ask you kindly carefuly to avoid any ethic insults as :
> 1. There is a Russian citizen too in NR, and he is a good friend of mine,
> 2. Let us no speak about who is more or less barbarian....

Marcus Prometheus :
The joke about barbarians - it was clearly a joke as it was followed by
the emotic ;-)
is FROM THE POINT OF WIEW OF THE RUSSIANS, not against Russians, as they
probably might
admit that at the time of FIRST ROME they (the pretended THIRD ROME),
weren't yet as Progressed
as First Rome, but still They, the Russians would never like to be
assimilated to the further away
(from Roman civilization themes at least) Central Asians.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Macedonicus wrote:
> Let us no speak about who is more or less barbarian as I have been
> in Roumania few times and know how it looks there and what is her
> cultural level. Simply, let us try to find what is a common base and to
> avoid stereotypes about our neighbours.

Marcus Prometheus:
Perhaps < Let us no speak about who is more or less barbarian > N O
W .
But I was speacking --- and just jockingly, remenber the ;-) ---
about ancient terms (BARBARIAN as it was used versus CIVES IMPERII
ROMANI)
and situations like Sarmathians peoples (even the present ones and most
probably the past ones ) not liking to be confused with more
periphericals
Central Asians, against whom they fougth for theyr whole history at
first
do not to be subdued or obliterated and then to subdue them and perhaps,
accordingly to their own point ow wiew as third Rome even to civilize
them)
But perhaps I feel that you referring to present days trips in present
State of Romania.
Well I can readily admit that present state of the state of Romania and
of Moldova is a
pain a very very big PAIN, (I would'nt say from the intellectual or
cultural level at
all, but certainly from the MORAL and CIVIL and economic point of view

R O M A was great because she I N V E N T E D the law,
and so was the first NON tribal state in the world.

Not casually the present days only superpower and a true and legitimate
heir of Roman republic
is the American Republic. The USA lives under the "tyranny" of the laws
even sometimes in an
exagerate way which sometimes makes us old Europeans laugh. Right, we
laugh, they legitimately have the imperium. They are present days New
Romans because they are proud to abide to the LAW.
Clearly we are very very far away from that here in present days Dacia,
it's a pity if you love what this people has been able to retain of
their ROMANITAS almost alone always at the eastern LIMES in front of
BARBARIANS INVASORS (Avars, Petchenegues Huns,Gothes, Vandals, Gepids,
Cumans, Tatars, Mongolians Bulgarians
(which where not slavs, the present days Slav Bulgarians owns them just
their name, but not the language or the bulk of the descent etc)
If there is liberty of speacking the truth they where invaded also by
some other then clearly barbarian peoples which afterwords formed states
that attained considerable level of civilization.
One of them (H.) on the western border has been rigthtfully admitted in
NATO just a few months ago, while justly even if painfully Romania is
still out. She will enter in European Union perhaps 10 or 20 years ahead
of Roumania (I do hope the gods of Rome will help Romania to not stay
out even more).
Now they are clearly ahead, and romanians might only imitate them in
their serious reforms to rejoin as soon as possible them and Europe.
But this does not affects retroactively Romanians Glory and nobility:
decaded Romanians can still remember their nobler origin not instead of
reforms and progress, but as incitaation to it.
And NOBLE AND GLORIOUS they are to be considered AT LEAST IN THE FAMILY
OF PEOPLES WHICH REFERS TO ROMANITY AS THEIR DIVINE INSPIRATION.
The past speack of Romanians glory and nobilty:
NOBILTY because they freely civilized and latinized themselves even
after the legions left Dacia,
and GLORY of having fought for Romanity (THEIRS and OURS) and Europe
against two powerful Asian Empires who subdued parts of Europe, had
their capitals in Europe, but were felt by most of europeans as NON
European
for many reasons, but also typically because both the Czar and the
Sultan represented the Asian Autocracy versus the remenbrance of the
Roman Law never completely suffocated in Europe. For centuries the
Romanians have beeen a figthing barrier against these Asian forces.
Just like the glorious Greeks at Marathon, but with less shining
victories and many many more bad moments, but still there, alwais there
on the limes, a living and suffering barrier.
Or you think that Czarist-Bolshevik Asia and Sultans Asia were
progressive forces which unfortunately western Europe never had the
chance to "enjoy and appreciate" fully enough ?

Or you think that the Persians at Marathon lost a good chance for
mankind, unfortunatle not being able to unifyng the world under their
benevolent paternal Asian rule through which humaniti could get rid of
the silly idea beared by Athenians and Greeks (Europeans) of DEMOCRACY
?

It would be a very original idea as the defining and founding Mhyt of
origin of Europe is just the battle of Marathon, the opposition to Asian
tyranny less which we would be just an insignificant peninsula of Asia
(the myth of Zeus and Europa is just the myth of the name of Europe i.
e. as a semi goddes name, but still refers to the Hellesponthus, again
the separation of Europe from Asia)

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Marcus Prometheus wrote:
> > As for far away Asian republics of former Soviet Union Scarcely will
> > ever come from there a single would be civis of Nova Roma, and so when
> > and IF he will come he could even choose if he feels closer to Parthia
> > or to Sarmatia.

Macedonicus wrote:
> I absolutely agree with you.

Marcus Prometheus :
Dear Macedonicus, Wonderful, in this part of the world if we can agree
about Sarmatia,
this is the core of the problem and of all the problems
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)

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Marcus Prometheus first message:
> > But most important to me and I would suggest to those who feel Romans
> > might be to redress a very bad mistake
> > In the map of European provinces the Republic of MOLDOVA (capital
> > Kishinau) is annexed to TRANSDACIA i.e. to Ukraine !

Macedonicus wrote:
> Yes, it is a mistake, I agree with you.

Marcus Prometheus:
We do agree also about Scithia!!!!!!!!!!

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Marcus Prometheus first message:
> > SUNT ROMUN " They speak "ROMANESTE"
> > They faced the barbarians for 2000 years, they resisted and remained
> > LATINS, they extended ROMANITAS to northern Moldavia where never arrived
> > the Roman Legions! They Latinized even some parts of present Ucraina,
> > and I don't mean only the parts within the Nistrus river (once belonging
> > to Romania and stealed by the Soviets), but they latinized also parts
> > wher never a Moldavian Duke or Romanian King exerced any authority,
> > until the Bug and the Dniepr river.

Macedonicus wrote:
> You know, I am also from the Balkans and it is very common there to
> speak about the history and to use as argument a given date (and to
> forget what was before this date).
> I think it would be better together with starting assuring us about
> your true to give us a chance to hear another side (Ukrainians or
> Russians). And as there are no Ukrainians/Russians on the list at that
> moment, I would like to suggest to pass this discussion to the future
> and then you could discuss with your future Ukrainian oponent this
> theme.


Marcus Prometheus:
I just cannot understand why above you answer as if I had made any
revanchistic politic or diplomatic claim to Transnistrian lands in
southern Ucraine
for present days Romania, or even for NR microProvincia Dacia.
Please read carefully, I absolutely did neither claim.
I just told to Nova Roma Citzens, people interested in Romanitas and in
the Sacrality of Romanitas
a story very interesting in its true EXCEPTIONALITY, i.e. that some
lands became populated by neolatins speacking romanians "naturally" by
simple ways of attraction,
---- Joke: perhaps it's matter of latin lovers
or of civilizations levels? ;) ----
WITHOUT ANY MILITARY CONQUEST or even without the slightest civil
authorithy ever exerced there.
I insist I am not asking and read well I did'nt demand a military
conquest NOW, let's not be ridicoulus,
neither a Daco-Romanian border at the Dniester river in the heart of
Ukraine.
(If any Ukrainian were listening the thing to ask them migth just be to
really apply their own laws -very reasonable in theory- about minority
rigths, instead of unofficially denationalizing their peaceful
minorities by closing schools etc.)
I was just signalling the exceptionality of such very civilized way to
civilize neighboring places
(not the full country as Romanians in Ukraine remained a always a
minority, but a large one a big spread of many rural villages and a few
small cities).
This is an exception in history and I kindly ask fellow New Romans
history lovers to signal me if they know
any other cases in all the ages and places.
I know very few others, also all interestingly linked to latinity:
----First of all DACIA: my most revered Goddess Rome civilized latinized
and romanized permanently
the whole of Dacia: ( geographically the whole space among the rivers
Danube-south, the Nistrus-east
the Tibiscus West and the Black Sea-east. Well the roman legions never
occupied more than 2 thirds of that.
The rest was "SELF-ROMANIZED" after the roman legions left and crossed
the Danube unfortunately forever.
Glory to those noble Dacians, early an dhumble appreciators of roman
civilizathion.
----- Second the above mentioned peaceful expansion in Southern Ucraine
between the XIV and the XVIII
-----Third DALMATIA the assimilation to Venetian-Italian speackers of
coastal Slavs in Histria and Dalmatia which began under Venetian
benevolent rule ALBEIT NOT PUSHING AT ALL IN SUCH DIRECTION, but
italianization also CONTINUED DURING AUSTRIAN "NEUTRAL" RULE BETWEEN
1815- 1860, and EVEN CONTINUED DURING MALEVOLENT AUSTRIAN RULE AFTER
1860 and until the end of last century, when de-nationalization of
italians became more virulent.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Macedonicus wrote:
> You know, I am also from the Balkans and it is very common there to
> speak about the history and to use as argument a given date (and to
> forget what was before this date).

Marcus Prometheus:
I am not from the Balcans, I am Italian, (now in a Latin brother country
in
Central Eastern Europe) but I just know some historic dates.
I did'nt brougth them in my first message, as I was not affording
diplomatic
history or peoples historic rights, just giving some arguments to remedy
a
NOVA ROMA geographical administrative mistake and telling a small
"collateral"
curious story about the power of PEACEFUL actraction of ROMANITAS
but just for those interested In history, the history of the Romanian
Eastern border
I could supply them in a future message, and it will be much shorter
than this one.

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Marcus Prometheus first message:
> > Their people fought 5 years ago for some months an unfortunate battle
> > against the bolsheviks of the Russian 14 th Army for the city of
> > Tighina, unfortunately the Roman patriots lost against the immensely ...
> > self styled Republic of TRANSNISTRIA proclaimed there by the Russians
> > colonizers (brought 55 years ago by Stalin).

Macedonicus wrotes:
> Well, Russians colonizers... it may sounds good for Americans. But what
> if the reality was a really bit different and right ........

Marcus Prometheus:
Perhaps it would be better do not to extend too much our discussion, but
I also
think that no questions might be left unanswered: I own no land in the
Usa, but
I can say that the colonization of the West, albeit very painful for
Indians was
the expansion of cattle raising and agriculture and mining in a land
very
suitable for it replacing beautiful and romantic hunting and gathering.
Given the absurd population growth incitated religiously by the Bible
without any
limit(grow and multiplicate I think is the only commandment respected in
excess),
"Modernization" happened. Unfortunately in the modern world there is no
way a small
people could keep unexploited such potential wealth.
Fortunately at least on the pain of American Indians which I sympathize
at least
was not born one other "ASIA", not an authocracy enemy of their and
others peoples
but a freedom loving and law loving country who saved 3 times Europe in
this
century (first World War, second W.W. and Cold War). Thanks America's
Centurions!

Anyway almost inevitable even if very painful "Modernization" of
underpopulated
countries is one regrettable thing, but many steps further is brazen
criminal
Nazi and Bolshevik Pact MOLOTOV RIBBENTROP with Soviet aggression
toward their WEST (eastern Europe) whith countries which were never
less civilized or more absolutists or power and blood thirsty than the
Soviets.
It is not a coincidence that Romanian people saw in it the continuation
of
the unfortunate peoples migrations which submerged the Antique Roman
Empire.
With the Molotov Ribbentrop pact of 1939 happened the victimization of
peaceful tiny
sovereign states of ESTONIA, LETTONIA, LITUANIA, fully swallowed and
the partial
swallowing of FINLAND, POLAND, ROMANIA.
Happily all they are free now, and realistically nobody wants to settle
furthe scores,
even if the eastern parts of Finland Poland and Romania still are
partitioned.
But at least remember that even the Russian parlament of a few years ago
publicily
rejected and disavowed the pact Ribbentrop Molotov . Unfortunately they
did'nt repair any damage.
or gave back any inch of conquered land to Finland (by Russia) to
Poland by Bielorussia and Ukraine or to Romania by Ukraine.
Soviet Union denied to its last day that the Molotov Ribbentrop pact
contained any secret
protocol about partitionig the prey aggressed in common with the Nazis.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Macedonicus wrotes:
> But what if the reality was a really bit different and right these Lenin/Stalin
> criminals have created Soviet republics without any respect of the
> ethnic or historical borders and had included purely Ukrainians/Russians
> territories into the new Soviet Moldavia?


Here I am not so sure I understand very much your point.
Creating willingly, deliberately absurdly mapped republics was
deliberate Stalin's policy.
The borders among Soviet Republics were traced by Stalin but NEVER based
ed on history or previous borders, never on ethnical majority division,
NEVER based on any geographical unity principle, not even based on
economic zones principles, or on any other principle than going just
against all those above principles.
They were not even traced to give the most of land to the Russians. They
where chosen in a DEVILISH WAY
just to create confusion and hate.
They were the most fancyful contribution of Stalin to confusion ethnic
hate and minorities oppression and denationalization.
The other pillars were more traditional:
1) Expulsions in Siberia by the millions
2) Gulag camps of forced labour exploatation and in good percentage
extermination again for millions.
3) Bringing of Russian immigrant labour force
4) Bringing of a collection of many others peoples which together could
speack only russian so that the
victim of denationalization of zone A became the "new russian" intruder
and oppressor of zone B and so on.
5) discriminations against the locals of a certain zone in favour of the
forcefully settled there of point 3) and partially of point 4) too.

Still the problem I signaled exists: On traditional Romanian soil
exists a secessionist (splinter) unrecognized so called "Moldovan
NISTRIAN Republic" or TransNistria, created by the still existing 14th
soviet army occupying territory of rigthful Republic of Moldavia, which
is an unwilling host, a sovereign state member of United Nations exists.
The AMERICAN TAXPAYER supports Russia in need, ok, we understand to
avoid worst troubles, BUT Russia bankrolls the puppet state of his 14th
army and the 14th Army itself.
This puppet bankrupt state is in the hands of plain criminals, and you
must not believe it because I say it, but because the very same General
Lebed, former Soviet commander in Afganistan, former Russian commander
of the 14th army and former creator of Moldovan Nistrian Republic
previous candidate to the Russian presidency, and after that great
elector of president Eltsin, prominent candidate to the next Russian
presidency elections said that publicily once he lost his tempers with
so called president Smirnov and his gang.
And this president Smirnov and his gang are responsable of the
kidnapping in june 1992, ILIE ILASCU and 4 friends detaining them 7
years, "judging" condemning them to death in 1993 and beating, keeping
them away from medical assistence for years, forbidding family visits
too and blackmailing them.
They are good Romanian patriot, and I would add good antique ROMANS too.
Remember in their language they say "Eu sunt ROMAN" i.e. I am Roman
or I am Romanian, and they are in jail just for this!
If you too want to call yourself ROMAN don't you think you migth know a
little more of their pligth and try to respect it?
They Are in jail because they fougth denationalizations in the already
existing romanian schools of Tighina and they fought for the rigth of
the still presently neolatin majority there in the Moldavia between the
rivers Prut and Nistrus (Dnester) can live free from the terror of 14th
Soviet Army in its internationally recognised borders, or even less,
just at least the bolshevics leave Tighina which is NOT even
geographically in Trans-nistria, but in Cis-nistria, on the rigth side
of the Nistrus river.
It is true that on the right side of Nistrus river or Transnistria
proper tere is one city Tirasopol now
populated mainly of Russian speakers (see point 3 above) and assimilated
Russian speakers (see point 4 above) coming from all the corners of what
president Reagan called the Evil Empire, all artificially transplanted
laborers. The countryside also on the left bank still is mainly
agricultural and Romanian.
Interesting is that not even Ukraine wants to annex them! Perhaps the
best solution would be a free city of Tighina almost independent and
linked to whoever they want and accepts them: Ukraine should they want
it, Moldavia to which legally belongs for Stalins will, or Russia
(which anyway has not a common border - russian border is over 500 kms
away !) But unarmed, please! without the formidable 14th army created to
control from there the whole of the Balcans and still menacing them.
Once General Lebed boasted that he could arrive in Bucarest, the
Romanian capital just in a few hours perhaps he said 6.

But this is just chat-politics. The important thing about those 5 ROMAN
heroes is that the European Court of Human Rights sitting in Strasbourg
just accepted officially a few days ago to examine the case!
And there are very good chances within the end of the year of a positive
sentence with the intimation to free
Ilie Ilascu. He and his companions of misfortune are the only modern
sign of ANTIQUA VIRTUS about which I presently can think.
Some leftist pacifist once said something like "Happy those countries
who don't need heroes".
Perhaps, but I say unhappy those countries who do need heroes and not
recognize love and honour them.

Perhaps this could apply also to micronations ?
Perhaps some of our american Nova Roma brothers could e-mail something
to their congressmen
Perhaps the notion of the single elected member of a sovereign
democratically elected parlament, lying in jail in the world and even in
the death row since 6 years could move some of them to speack their mind
about the 14th army problem to Ms Allbrigth which of course already
knows, but does'nt know if any elector cares.
Perhaps, after duly investigation abaout what I reported the dictator,
or better next fully democratic consuls
could honour this patriot (s) in some way.
Remember he lives now (and since 7 years) a real tragedy, is a macro
world hero
(and secundarly even a real member of a real parlament too).




You write what was before 2
> WW, but where was Moldova before I WW? Where she was before 13
> Is Moldova a democratic (not nationalistic) state, which respect all
> the human or minorities rights?

Moldova is a poor state still prey of boshevik demagogy exploited by
professional profiters, the "class"
of communists underlings under the Soviets, previous Russian laquees,
easyly blackmailable by Russian interests, even those of the 14th Army
and of Transnistrian fellow bolsheviks, is not a Democracy with big "D"
still it is a beginning to function scheleton democracy, I mean no
rigged ballot boxes at the elections. No mob beatings etc. It isn't yet
the realm of the law, even if it's beginning to reform.
and privatize, but of course just for the profit of former Soviet
chieftains.

Is not at all nationalistic in the sense you fear even if the Bolshies
profiteers stirred Moldavian sense of statehod or "Moldavian
patriotism" just in the sense of stayng away from union with Romania
(which they fear
could bring competition with other profiteers sent from Bucarest)
One example: The language, pure romanian, with just a local accent, and
perhaps 1 percent of regional terms (but interchangeable, I mean
understood also in the other romanian regions) and many more Russian
words from Russian Soviet era and from today too has been declared a
different language! The Moldavian !
The Russians want it to be written in cirillic caracters too!

Human rigths: I would'nt swear for more than perhaps 5 countries in the
world that do respect ALL human rigths as there is not even very exact
agreement about the extension of human rigths, and certainly Moldova is
not on the top of the 5 list, (but with civil litigation lasting for
more than 10 years, in my opinion neither Italy, the motherland of LAW,
is there)

BUT MINORITY RIGTHS AR MORE THAN RESPECTED, THEY ARE CULTIVATED !!!
Moldova has been federalized to be ready to end the TransNistrian
rebellion and there exists even a GAGAUZ (sic) State for the Gagauz
minority (ever heard about them??? I guess NOT!). The Capital is Comrat
in the south, little more than a village their language almost
unexistent in writing is recognized as official.
They are a kind of turkish people or better Mongolian Bulgarians (not
Slavs) but orthodox christians.
The russian minority is at the helm everywhere as in good old days.
They had the power in the name of the people in Soviet times with soviet
fear of the chiefs, Stalin etc.
Then came privatization and democracy: they took everything in their own
name and without fear. Just fine for them. Just one example:
The promised balance among television channel languages distributed by
cable TV (one third Romanian, one third Russian, and one third western
languages is gone and most of the programs are just in Russian.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Macedonicus wrote



> So, please, do not be insulted by my questions and I really would be glad to receive an answer from you
> Bene vale!
> Alexander Iul. Caes. Probus Mac.
>
> P.S. By the way, I am feeling myself to be more Hellenistic than Roman
> (moreover Roumanian).


Dear Macedonicus I do hope I did'nt insult anybody by my answers too,
but really if you like Roma, (even if second place after Hellenism),
please try to tolerate some Romans too, the good American NOVA ROMANS
and the not so perfect peoples of the eastern LIMES of the empire too.
They are perhaps the worst in the world, but still they expressed 5
people who suffered 7 years of jail and the death condamnation just for
insisting they are ROMANS and they want to die free Romans.


Bene Vale !
Marcus Prometheus Decius Golia


P.S. As my first message and your two messages appared already on the
whole list
and as I do strongly feel useful to communicate to all New Romans the
bulk of the above long story,
I want you know that I intend to post it also on the list,
but as you asked a private message, firstly I send it just to you one
day before than to the others.
Perhaps I migth to split it in 2 small

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 4/6 about Praetors
From:
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:05:36 EDT

In a message dated 7/15/1999 6:52:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< 3. Praetor Urbanus (Urban Praetor). Two urban praetors shall be
> elected by the Comitia Centuriata to serve a term lasting one year. They
> shall have the following honors, powers, and obligations:
> a) To hold Imperium and have the honor of being preceeded
by six lictors;

Sulla: Didnt Praetor Urbanii have 8 Lictors and Praetor's have 6 Lictors?
>>
Sorry. Praetors had 2, Consuls had 6, Praetor Maximus 12. After cica 300 BCE
Praetors was increased to 6, Consul 12, and Dictator 24. The Praetor Urbanus
had 2 lictors. Since he would receive 6 when he left Rome, (as a Praetor he
was entitled) but is not sure if these were added to the two for the 8 Sulla
asks about.
Q. Fabius.

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 3/6
From:
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:21:15 EDT

>>III. Comitia
A. The comitia curiata (Assembly of Curiae) shall be made up of
thirty lictores curiatae (curia lictors), appointed to their position by the
collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs). It shall be called to order by
the Pontifex Maximus, and the collegium pontificum shall set the rules by
which the comitia curiata shall operate internally. It shall have the
following responsibilities:
1. To invest elected and appointed magistrates with the Imperium
necessary to employ coercitio (the power to compel obedience to his or her
edicts, subject to the right of provocatio but under penalties determined
by law), interpret and execute law, and possess the honor of being preceeded
by lictors as a symbol of office; >>

I'm confused by the wording. The Curiata will invest the authority. Is this
by a vote, or declaration? And this college will be appointed from citizens
by College of Pontiffs? How is this done? A tap on the shoulder?
Vale
Q. Fabius

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 4/6 about Praetors-LICTORS
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:29:06 -0500 (CDT)

This is all very nice but for the sake of arguement what context
would anyone ever have to worry about how many Lictors they would have
preceding them anyway?

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Age of Paterfamilias
From:
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:29:38 EDT

In a message dated 7/15/1999 6:03:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< I have a question/suggestion. Do you think there should be a limit on the
ages of the Pater/Materfamilias, due to the responsibility of the position?
Having 18 and 19 year olds as parents responsible for the maintaince of a
Gens? A family with responsibilty, let alone the respect to our ancestors?
>>
Salve
I have agree with Sulla on this. Head of the family is an important job, and
I wonder if a 18 year old is ready for the resposnibilty? Perhaps this
should raised to 21.
Vale
Q. Fabius.

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 4/6 about Praetors-LICTORS
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:35:48 -0500 (CDT)

Ok Sulla, and I can agree also that maybe 18 or 19 is too young to be
the head of a Paterfamilia.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Re: Re: Provinciae in Europa (long)
From:	Marcus Prometheus fresco@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:07:05 +0300

RMerullo wrote:
>
> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
> Salvete Marce Promethe et alii
>
> Thank you for replying to my message.
>
> 2. The innovative (or wrong, depending on how you want to look at it)
> application of "trans-" has been made. Should we correct it? Does
> deviation from the classical rules of the "trans-" convention bother us,
> please us, or not matter at all? Perhaps we could modify the names to make
> them adjectival, like Provincia Transgermanica, or Provincia Transdacia (we
> would of course drop the word provincia for typical use). What has more
> euphony?

Come on, please! first wrong -becomes- maybe innovative.
Then "does it really bother us?"
Then to stick to the error we make it adjectival, we add Provincia, but
of course nobody will use Provincia.
The problem is of absurdly UN-representative names.
Then you speack of euphony.

> >It would have been absurd. If you are mr. Y , you are not well
> >described as
> >"mr. not X" or "mr. beyond X". The reason? even if it were true,
> >such statement would be just an insignificant part of the whole truth.
> > This would define a very very small aspect of your BEING.
>
> Good point.
>
> >This is the common sense reason by which we never never absolutely never
> (more good points and copious examples deleted for space)

So You understand, but then you drop the jyst grasped logic for some
psicological conservatorism worth of a better cause.

Why? did you named Provinces on the map yourself ?

After so many logic points even the author would renounce,
And even you recognize them, and then you backpedal. Why???




> >If I were jew or just interested in ancient Israel and I imagined to
> >belong to some jewish ancient community let's say of Palmyra I would
> >never FEEL EXACTLY DESCRIBED if this jewish community was defined
> >TRANSLIBANIAN or TRANSARMENIAN or CISARABIAN or TRANSARABIAN, it depends
> >all from the point of wiew.
>
> Oh no, let's not get into those "trans-" names again! :)
>
It's You who want to keep them even against ya logic you already
accepted.
the problem is clearly psicologig Why such an unuseful conservatorism?


> >And my point of view, my center would be Gerusalem, nothing else.
> >This just very very coldly and intellectually.
> >Then if my feelings in favour or against one of the terms were for some
> >reasons of my belief or history partucularly strong, then I could be not
> >only intellectually unsatisfied by the definition, but just outraged.
>
> I don't understand that outrage. How can you be outraged about a mistake in
> naming the province of a new country? Because you feel that your identity
> has been slandered? I'm perplexed.
So you don't understand you cannot understand strong historically based
popular feelings. Come on, visit Poland's historical museums, or study
their thousand years of decent patriotism, of difficult realizations, of
moments of glory always paid dearly in blood and pain in face of their
powerful ennemies of the east and of the west. Examin with empathy their
great empathy towards Rome and Italy, also paid dearly in many instances
it is apassion made mostly of Roman catholicism (which does not
enthusiasms me), but still is wonderful,
with an history so rich with such a strong identity you can call them
shit eaters perhaps, but not transgermans, they are not transgenic, no
mutants, they are just Polish, not CIS-Russians. Call them Wistulani,
call them Balts, (they are a littlr bit so) call them Vendi, call them
provincia nr. yz, but not accessories to Germany.

And some passionnate point I could stress also for the Dacians of
Moldavia
but what you need are no more rational or sentimental arguments, but
some questions.
Isn't that you just cannot believe to sime form of passionnate,
innocent, decent patriotism ?

When I speack of nations and nationalities do you only think to Nazis,
Serbs,
Czarists pogroms or similar ?
Please read the history of Romania, their fierce struggles against half
Asian czarist authocratic empire, and similar half asian turc empire
but read also of arcaic peasant tradition, and discover about their
benevolent life toghether with minorities for centuries and centuries.
There is nothing perverse in patriotism for a decent country, tradition
etc.
This is just what you dont admit. Why? Do peoples have to denationalize
themselves to forget their roots because other peoples abused of those
principles? Perhaps not, prhaps there is MODUS IN REBUS, and there is a
decent way of feeling strongly his identity without denyin that of the
others.
You cannot label as excessively nationalistic pretence the desire of
defining correctly themselves. If a Pole would get inflamed hearing thai
he is renamed transgerman because of historic feelings and strong sense
of identity it does not means at all that he cannot be friend of Germany
or of Germans just he cannot accept the idea of sacrolegious mix of
names and symbols, but if you hate identities you would dirteust and
disrespect also symbols.
So I'll make one other example: take me, I love sweet taste and I love
salted taste, but I am disgusted of their mixture. Some names perfectly
legitimate at their own places, even to me, are intolerable to me in
other places. They are things called borders and soverignity which are
meant to avoid such problems, and borders can come down only in some
minimal frame of justice, and mutual respect like the case of European
Union, and slowly slowly,peacefully, as men is a social-territorial
animal, both sociable but still a little territorial.
And there is nothing wrong in it.
One of the most peaceful (low level of any kind of violence) city in the
world
is Siena which with the organization of city life all year round in
contrade which twice per year run the famous Palio, an horse race which
is more a medioeval battle than a race in terms of sport. Siena is the
most territorial- strongly communitarian "tribal" place in the world, I
would say worst than Beirut in some aspects, but territorial and tribal
appartenence is ritualized and lived mostly in beloved symbols so the
violence level is absolutely minimal.
This observation is mot mine but of a famous sociologist.


> >For me it is simple like that.
> >Some people feels strongly their nationality.
The point is that to feel strongly his national identity does not means
to deny the same rigth to others, or to hate others.


> > For me, my nationality is ROMANITAS.
>
> I think of Romanitas as a personal trait or quality more than as a
> nationality. I do believe, however, that a group of people could strive to
> imbue themsleves with Romanitas, and, in conjointly striving to do that,
> share a community. If that is nationality, I am all for it.
>
> My patriotism goes straigth to all
> >neolatin countries, European and Latin Americans, I am European and I
> >like it, I'm proud of it, but I also recognize and usually appreciate
> >American leadership of the free world and for our civilization.
>
> This is interesting. I feel nationalism toward the US and could argue,
> though, that we (USA) are leading maybe too much, not so much in the right
> direction. But it's all hopefully off-topic.
>
Eh, sometimes is too much sometimes is too little, Churchill never said
Democracies are perfect, he said they are the worst choice, except just
all others :-)

> >Do you remember about the Sigonella episode of Italian Usa confrontation
> >when perhaps a dozen years ago the good modern centurions of U.S. Air
>
> No I don't remember. Point taken though.
>
> >I just do not want to offend you but I would like to understand your
> >Romanitas.
> >Is not a kind of patriotism and sense of brotherhood with fellow neo
> >latins peoples? And with all fond of ancient Roman civilization?
>
> I'm not offended. To me, Romanitas is like the sum of all the virtues,
> especially pietas, dignitas and gravitas, in one person and shared in a
> community. Perfect Romanitas is probably like perfect anything else, quite
> unachievable. I think that Romanitas does not currently exist in the world
> as a nationality, because nationality is a special case of ethnicity, isn't
> it?
>
Why not a special allegiance to your kin before than to the rest ?

That is my pan - neolatin patriotism.



> I am pretty sure that there is at least one Nova Roman, a pretty prominent
> one at that, from a traditionally Moslem area. Of course I have trouble
> seeing devout Moslems joining Nova Roma.

Probably Makedonicus (Hadji) with whom I am strogly arguing (did you
see?)
is a Macedonian Turc (or Bosnian or Albanese??)
I didn't permit to myself to ask him but he espressed some anti Usa
European - imperialists position in correspondence with me, but mainly
he is antiromanian.
I just invited him to state his position about the birth of the divide
between Democracy -Greece- Europe - vs Authocracy -Persia- Asia to
understand him better. We shall see.


In fact, I can say the same of
> devout Christians, except for those devout Christians who believe, not
> without basis, that their interpretation of Christianity is akin to an
> ancient Roman Christianity. And, even in the latter case, there will no
> doubt always be some conflict, internal and otherwise.


The problem is more about if is the conflict irreconciliable or not
As for the catholic church (and any church) my opinion is that churches
are all more virulent at their birth, not after sone 2000 years, now
they try to concile something, then they were irreconciliable. Why you
think the opposite?


> >Also all the provinces of Africa are absolutely empty cases destined to
> >stay so.
>
> Not necessarily. A few Nova Romans may eventually join from Africa.
You mean Africa Romana i.e. Tunisia or Africa the continent?
>
> >> Hold on. Transdacia is not Ukraine. "Transdacia" could mean-
> >>
> >Hold on:
> > TransDacia could be perhaps a Moto rally crossing historic Dacians
> >regions from Szeghed on the Tysza (Tibiscus) to Bucarest in Romania, to
> >Kishinau in Moldavia, to Tirasopol (if Smirnov will be defeated) to
> >Odessa if The Ukranians consent.
>
> OK, you have proved your point very well on TransDacia. You have made a
> good linguistic argument that the name is incorrect. But I still disagree
> that the name should be changed for historic/political reasons.

Is it your zodiac sign Capricorn ?



>
> Of course TransDacia is not Ukraine. If it were, then Ukraine would be a
> province of Nova Roma, governed by a praetor. Kuchma would be out of a job!
> Nova Roma's administrative divisions should not be confused with the
> territorial boundaries of macronations, never, never, never.


But when they are 95 % such - and just 5 % different and the two just
never mixed in history, and do not mix now, why do you insist?
Come on you are joking with me !

> >> Thank you for that historical background! I'm no fan of Igor Smirnov and
> >> the Tiraspol crowd, but I believe that those events are beyond the scope
> of this list, and so I won't be expanding on that here.
> >
> >
> >I do respectfully keep just the opposite opinion, and for this I would
> >like to understand you better as I asked before. What is romanitas for
> >you?
>
> I have always been a lover of things Roman. When I read Epictetus for the
> first time, I felt like I was remembering it rather than discovering it.
> No, I'm not arguing that I'm reincarnated, but I am telling you that I feel
> a strong affinity for Roma and the beginnings of Romanitas in me (pietas,
> dignitas, gravitas).

Ok but for me it cannot be just Literatur, it is also peoples.
Why not also pietas (or empathy) for the poor descendents of Roman
provincials of Dacia who kept latinized (or neo-Lat.) the eastern Limes
? Who being latinized didn't welcome (and so slowed) the turks sultans
armies or the czarist autocracy and bolshevik evil empire marching
towards the heart of Europe ? So they slowed them a little you know? I
do say them thanks for that.



> >not speaking of thoes real world historic wrong.
> >{ The only connection with real world could be some lobbying to free
> >Ilie Ilascu & cfriends.)
>
> Is that what Nova Roma should do, or what you intend to do? E-mail me
> privately if you know of some way (letter campaign?) in this regard.
>
> >
> >Unfortunately I do admit that here in Noiva Roma we cannot rigth true
> >HISTORICAL WRONGS, and I am not adept of rewriting history ignoring
> >Constantine (we can just tell the truth about him and it is bad enough).
>
> Right, but crossing his name out is worse. It's very "Nova Moscova" as you
> put it below.
I never proposed that! just the opposite! I just avowed telling the
truth!
It is not my guilty if for the person of Constantine that would be
really rewriting the history (but literally and rigthfully). Not pagans
would be the rewriters in the Orwellian sense.
> >
> >I just want to rigth a NOVA ROMA geographical, linguistic and
> >ideological wrong.
>
> You are, in my view, very much capable of pointing the way to righing
> geographical and linguistic wrongs. But there are no ideological wrongs
> here to right, not in the area of what to call province x.

A geographical wrong applied to one people and to peoples legitimate and
moderate feelings is an ideologic wrong, and here there are.
I am sure not willingly made but made and to redress.

What I cannot explain further than the tentatives already given is your
psycological attitude


> >If it is true that N R inspires itself referring to the History of
> >Rome, and particularly to the late republican period,then, I consider:
> >
> >1) Geographically Moldavia Kishinau was never part of something called
> >TransDacia
>
> I believe you.
>
> >2) Since the sixth century b.c. the Geto Dacians inhabited all the lands
> >between
> >the Tibiscus and the Nistrus (Dnester)
> >In the first centuries after the legions came, briefly stayd in 2 thirds
> >of Dacia and then left, romanization began and went on after even to
> >parts of Dacia unattained by the legions. So we don't have a date or an
> >episode "dating" the disappearing of Dacian language, and the peaceful,
> >frewilling romanization, but Romano Dacians continue the Dacians.
>
> Right, so where's the outrage? There aren't any Dacians, haven't been for a
> long time, and noone is trying to insult them or their memory anyway.

There are Dacians,or at least there are legitimate heirs: like french
people feels to be latin but feels also to be the heir of the Gauls ,
just so the romanians trace correctly their ancestors to the ROMANS and
to the Dacians.


> >3) Romanodacians survive barbarian invasions and absorb invaders.
> >4) The first Slav state of Kiev confirms the traditional eastern border
> >of the Nistrus River for 90% of the course of the river. Only the
> >springs and first chilometers of the river in the north and for a very
> >small mounaineous area called Pocutia belonged to Kiev for maybe one or
> >2 centuries until the Mongolian Tatars arrived. The Pocutia belonged to
> >Poland. The border between latins and Slavs always was at the Nistrus.
> >The Russians empire appared on the river border just with the partition
> >of Poland, and confirmed it, but just a few years after, in 1812 the
> >insatiable Czarists Russians occupy the first time Eastern Moldavia and
> >begin denationalization.
>
> "insatiable?" If I didn't know better, I'd think that you were trying to
> stir up anti-Russian sentiment with that word. And it would be funny if you
> did, because the Romans were pretty "insatiable" about territory too,
> especially in the early Principate.


Unfortunately Augustus didn't conquer Germania and the limes was never
brougth to the line Vistula Nistrus which was considered the phisical
border of Europe (instead of present days line of the Urals.
This is one of the most important causes of the future fall or Rome.
The limes on the Rhine and the Danube was too long just too long.
The then recognized natural border of Europe would have halved it!!!
See a map, one effort in that direction would not have brougth more land
(anyway the legions would have conquered mostly virgin and untilled land
from marauding and warring tribes, not peaceful fellow european and
fellow cristian
lands already tilled and civilized like those who where object of
czarist and Soviet insatiable expansionism. Also the czars and the
soviets had plenty of land in Siberia to exploit)
So no more land for proletarian romans or for veterans, no more
strathegic depth between Rome and the limes, but worst of all, the true
cathastrophy was no vital halving of the length of the limes, so more
soldiers needed, so more taxes to pay, so more discontent, so more
christians too probably etc.
A disaster. Fostered by emperors excessive conservatorism for fear of
loosing power to a victorious general conquering something.
Unfortunately Caesar had given the bad example!




> >5) Anyway the latins still are 2 thirds in Moldova, and trace their
> >ancestors to the Romans and to the Dacians.
>
> I thought that something like 90% of Moldova was Romanian.

Was almaost 100% before 1812 when Russian first entered until the war of
Crimea. about 20 years of Romanian rule. Then again in the second half
of the century the russian invaded, then the miracle of Romanian Unity
in 1918 for 20 years, then the criminal pact Molotov Ribbentrop, then 3
years of war, and then again the russians. with 2 millions people
deportated in siberian gulags and half a million killed and replaced by
russians or by other peoples deportated. so there are 30% of russian
speakers now!

Less than ten years ago Independence.

But then,
> Romanians aren't Latins, that is, not latini. Unless one accepts that all
> Italians, French, Portuguese et cetera are Latins too.
Yes, and brasilians Argentinians etc...

In fact in my mother tongue we do say:
Latina: the ancient language,
Latina & Latini the ancient population of Latium
(laziali the modern population of the same place now LAZIO)
NEOLATINE the modern neolatin languages
but LATINI the modern populations of Southern Europe and Southern
America
normally not specyfyng neo-latini beacuse there is no confusion with pre
roman Latium populations.
So in italian is correct to say the latin population or latins of
present Moldavia speak a neolatin language: Romanaian




To me, so much
> history has happened with all these peoples that they have formed new
> national identities. Rome is in the foundation of those cultures, but
> they're not Rome.
not Rome but LATIN speakers of neolatin languages, and a part of
romanity.
even if you prefer to call them neolatins it doesn't change anything and
is not offensive for anybody.
>
> >6) A roman Lupa ( She Wolf with Romulus and Remus) )is in a Kishinay
> >square, and even if nowdays Moldova keeps his independence forgetting or
> >delaying re-union to Romania, still they trace their ancestors to Dacia
> >and Rome.

> And some Croats claim that they are descended from Etruscans, or Hittites.
> Maybe they are.

Come on! Couldn't you be serious ?
I'll not answer about the Croats, you know already.
>
They did not traced their ancesors at a phony genealogist agency, they
do speack a neo latin language. They kept their latinity against
barbarians invasions and at least a large minority of them lives it as
an important part of their lives. 5 peoples acepts jail since 7 years
for this latinity.
They are condemmed to death but they dont give up.
Do you compare this with Croats UFO onanism?
Pietas, dignitas, gravitas if I remember well isn't it?
BUT WHY ???


> That Romanian ethnicity is in large part derivative of extended Rome I have
> no objection. But it does not follow --
>
> - that Romanians are Romans, or Latins (unless you define "Latins"
> differently from my definition on this list, namely, the Italic people in
> central Italy when Rome was founded and until the principate)

Already defined a half a page before as NeoLatins or just Latins
according to the main usage in your language. In Italy we call them
mainly latins, but it does not change much if in english perhaps you
prefer to say neo-latins.
In a broad sense thei are LATINS in a more specific sense they are
neolatins.
with roman and dacians ancestors.

Anyway at least e few heroes in the death row for their latinity, for me
are ROMANS with a very big capital R

> - that the territory that is now Moldova should be specially separated and
> re-named to distinguish it from the territory of Ukraine, within the
> framework of the system of province-naming of Nova Roma
>
For all the gods sake why not ?
because stubborness is Dignitas ?

> >Do the Nova Romans have any moral rigth to insult most of them?
>
> Apparently, to insult requires no right nor effort. I don't believe that
> anyone meant to insult anyone else with the names of our provinces. Surely
> you can understand that.

Somebody can feel insulted even if you dont intend to. Polite people in
this case usually say something like sorry when they realize it and it
is very very easy and just to remedy it.
Of course I understand that anobody in N R meant in the past to insult
Polish or Moldavian People.

Of course You understand too that in the future, the problem having
been duly signalled, and abundantly explained, matters will be different
especially because in this case nobody yet asks apologies, and because
it is very very easy and cheap to remedy it (and it is logic and enough
logically explained)
and it could never hurt anybody and and and...........
>
> >To insult history ??? But Why ?????? Just for ignorance ??????
>
> Yes, I believe that any mistakes in naming provinces invariably would stem
> from ignorance, not malice.
I absolutely agree, Errare humanum est, Sed Perseverare DIABOLICUM

> >But why to take exception from their own points of reference?????????
>
> So far, the main point of my disagreement with you lies in my failure to
> understand how one can find reprehensible identification of a territory name
> with another, especially when both names belong to ancient history.
>
> Had you right from the start proposed changing province names on the basis
> of accuracy by adducing your rules of the "trans-" convention, I probably
> would have less (maybe no?) disagreement. But the crux of your argument, as
> I perceive it, is more the "injustice" of the association of one ancient
> people with another. This I find to be, well, wrong.

An oriental philosopher would say that lack of accuracy is a sin against
the harmony of the Universe :)

But come on, Please, Please, Doesn't remains only stubbornes or unjust
prejudice against the most innocent and repectful forms of national self
identity , self esteem, moderate pride? Just the desire of being called
Pole instead of Pollak, italian instead of Dingo, Black instead of
Nigger?



> >And if so do they remain Nova ROMANS ?????? Then what is Rome for them
> >?????
>
> But that's the key. Anyone who belongs to a NR province is a Nova Roman.
> Noone is Nova Britannian, TransDacian, Thulean, are they?
>
> If they are, I believe that they are bringing elements into Nova Roma that
> are hardly universal. There's nothing wrong with identifying with the
> history of a particular Roman province, but don't be surprised when someone
> from the other side of the world has no clue what you mean.

PLease stay on earth, our mother earth goddess Ceres.
I don't want to increase the attributes of any province, much less at
the expenses of Nova Roma Universality. It is entirely one other matter
All the power to Nova Roma unique, and indivisible.
Please if you think it useful to the glory of Nova Roma send the
pretorians to disband all provincial magistrates, if they don't resign
send them ad metalla, or to power our glorious Triremes , or throw them
to the lions and/or at pleasure send them in holiday in Sibery or in
Smirnov's Tiraspol (please at your expenses) :-)))))
Come on come on ! I discussed only symbols, names, rigthful symbols,
Very important, but that. More important than you want to admit,for good
or bad, but just that.
Please think, what would remain of religion if you strip it of symbols.
Would you adopt names of the divinithy just a little UNACCURATELY and
very ligtheartedly?
A lot would be lost! I conclude: the matter is important for some, but
will change nothing in N R administration, of course.


> Now, one can be Nova Roman, while also being Italian; or Nova Roman, while
> being American; or Nova Roman, while being Italian American; but you
> cannot be Nova Roman while being Dacian!

Why not? If he can be Gallus, (ever heard of Galloromans?)
Hispanicus, Britannicus, even Italicus.
And more than Germanicus (please teke note , absolutely nothing against
Germans) just to explain that while most of germans where never included
in the empire or latinized on the other side the Dacians who where only
partially occupied by roman legions (for two thirds of whole
Dacia)instead accepted willingly romanization and are still now very
proud of it and so are neo latin speakers. But not only they did that,
but they self latinized also the resting third of Dacia so that at a
certain point let's say at the fall of Rome it did'nt exist a single
Dacian unlatinized any more.
It is like if in the british isles the Britanno-Romans remainedonce the
legions had left, had:
1) self romanized Scotland and Ireland
2) Kept a neolatin language until now
3) Consider themselves just romans (in their plain language they say eu
sunt Roman for I am roman) Their state is called ROMANIA
is composed by 3 parts Britain-Transilvania Whales-Walachia
Ireland-Moldavia)
4) had 5 patriots from latinized north Scotland (independent now from
equally latinized Britain Whales Ireland, but for most of its history
part of Ireland) these patriots are in prison since 7 years, and are
condamned to death since six years because they fougth for saying they
are just ROMANS (in their Scottish neolatin languages, they would say
NOI SUNTEM ROMANI) They aare condemned also because they fougth for the
rigth to send their children to neolatin schools and to write in latin
(not Cyrillic) character. They are in a small part of northern Scotland,
perhaps the Shetland islands, or more properly just on Scottish soil
exactly in front of Shetlands, as the Shetlands are already in
democratic majority enemy hands, so are lost, forget about neoLatin
Shetlands. The occupant enemy who is ? lets say for example the
bolsheviks or the Vikings (or both) which settled there 50 years ago and
on some previoos waves of incursions

I swear that all significant parallelism is strictly correct, not forced
or exageratd. I provoke who dares to demonstrate the contrary
May the lightening thunderbolt of zeus incinerate me by next keystroke
if I
lye. MARCUS PROMETHEUS DECIUS GOLIA

5) But, -quote- In Nova Roma They cannot be Nova Roman while being
Dacians-
unquote, while one can be Nova Roman while being American, German,
Thulean
Central Asian etc.

Really ?????

Why ???

Because they are reals before becoming virtuals ?

Why???

because at least 5 of them are
Real ancient ROMANS HEROES with gold capital
letters (latin alphabet, not cyrillic, please)

Why???????????????????????????????????????????????


> >Divine Mercury and Apollo ! Is this Nova Roma or Nova Moscova ?????
>
> I like that coinage.
> >
> >It seems so absurd to me.
> >After bothering to read this data I trust it will appear absurd even to
> >you.
> >
> Yes, the data truly has taken on the look of the absurd....no, I'm just
> making a lousy joke. You convinced me of some linguistic problem with the
> "trans-" names. On other counts, I stubbornly disagree.
>
> Valete
>
> Gaius Marius Merullus
> civis Novae Romae




Can you still (even STUBBORNLY) disagree also after the Scottish
parallelism?

Vale Stubborn et Valete patientes cives.

Marcus Prometheus Decius Golia
Italian citzen since birth, Romanian citzen since last year
NOVA ROMA Applicant for citzenship

Subject:	Age of Pater/Materfamilias
From:	Spurius Lusorius Obitus Maximus lusorius@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:08:36 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete,

I feel that an age restriction may be a wise policy in general.
However, before we take any action, I feel it would be prudent to
examine the list of citizens and determine how many, if any, current
patresfamiliarum and matresfamiliarum would be affected by each
proposed change. If the number is excessive for each, this should
shape our policy accordingly. I know that I, for one, would not like
to be told that I was now underage and would have to quit my own family
and be adopted into another. Perhaps it would be advantageous to enact
this as a restriction on _future_ applications for citizenship only.

Sp. Lusorius Obitus Maximus,
Paterfamilias of Gens Lusoria

(I'm 31, and a father, BTW)

>Message: 15
> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:29:38 EDT
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
>Subject: Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Age of >Paterfamilias
>
>In a message dated 7/15/1999 6:03:19 PM Pacific >Daylight Time,
><a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------/font>
>
><< I have a question/suggestion. Do you think there >should be a
limit
>on the
> ages of the Pater/Materfamilias, due to the >responsibility of the
>position?
> Having 18 and 19 year olds as parents responsible >for the maintaince
>of a
> Gens? A family with responsibilty, let alone the >respect to our
>ancestors?
>>>
>Salve
>I have agree with Sulla on this. Head of the family >is an important
>job, and
>I wonder if a 18 year old is ready for the >resposnibilty? Perhaps
this
>
>should raised to 21.
>Vale
>Q. Fabius.

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 0/6
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:24:11 -0400

Salve,

> From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
> Thank you for posting the Constitution to the list....approximately when
> would you like to formally adopt the Constitution into law? An
approximate
> date to end the debate so to speak. Thank you for your input!

Honestly, I don't have a set end-date in mind. Hopefully I did a good enough
job that there won't be that much to discuss past, say, next week. The
enactment of the new Constitution is going to be, I'm hoping, one of my last
official acts as Dictator.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Question
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:27:02 -0400

Salve,

> From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
> I have a question/suggestion. Do you think there should be a limit on the
> ages of the Pater/Materfamilias, due to the responsibility of the
position?
> Having 18 and 19 year olds as parents responsible for the maintaince of a
> Gens? A family with responsibilty, let alone the respect to our
ancestors?
> Sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly, hence why I am asking this
> question.

The only problem with this is that it forces new members who happen to be,
say, 19 to join an already-existing gens. Don't forget; most of the gentes
are made up of single individuals; not all of them are enormous
monstrosities like gens Cornelia. :-)

I have a problem with forcing people who are otherwise entitled to be
citizens to join a gens that they may have no knowledge of; just seeing a
name on a web page isn't any basis for joining a family.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 3/6
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:28:37 -0400

Salve,

> From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
> SULLA: Regarding this above quote? Since it is giving Imperium to the
> Magistrates. Wouldnt the task of interpreting the law lay with the
> Magistrates who have been granted Imperium via the Comitia? Or is it
> already giving that power to the Magistrates?

Imperium _is_ the power to interpret the law, and is given by the Comitia
Curiata to the magistrates. This just seemed a convenient place to define
precisely what Imperium is.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 4/6
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:34:13 -0400

Salve,

> From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
> >one
> > of the ordinarii be found to be derelict in his duties, that magistrate
> > may
> > be removed by a law originating in the comitia that elected him.
>
> Sulla: Who brings charges against the magistrate? A superior? I think
> this should be spelled out...That is such a broad and sweeping statement.

That depends on the magistrate in question. Those elected by the comitia
centuriata would have charges brought by ether the consul or praetor
urbanis, since they're the ones that convene that comitia. Those elected by
the comitia plebis tributa would have charges brought by the tribunes of the
plebs. And so on.

> > e) To safeguard the regimen morum (public morality and
honor)
> > through the collegial administering of notae;
> > (1) A nota against an ordinary individual is
sufficient
> > to deprive that individual of the right to vote until such time as it is
> > removed;
> > (2) A nota against a member of the Senate is
sufficient
> > to remove that individual from the Senate until such time as it is
removed.
>
> Sulla: Regarding the above....are both Censors necessary to complete
these
> functions? Is there a legal remedy as a check to prevent potential
abuses?

Yes; both censors must take the action of issuing a nota together (that's
what "collegial administration" means). The one censor is a check on the
other (just as each magistrate is a check on his collegial partner).

> Sulla: Didnt Praetor Urbanii have 8 Lictors and Praetor's have 6 Lictors?

Not according to my OCD, p. 860.

> Sulla: Also, I would add that that Dictator, once he/she has relinquished
> his authorty cannot be held personally accountable for their actions while
> they were Dictator.

How so? The Senate can already overrule what the Dictator does. No other
magistrate is so "personally accountable"; what exactly do you have in mind?

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	Proposed Constitution
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:21:26 GMT

Salvete Omnes

After having reviewed the proposed constitution as drawn up by F. Vedius
Germanicus, I have the following remarks:
I like its clarity of language and the inclusive nature of it. I approve of
it and personally have no qualms offering my support. I think Vedius has
done an exemplary job as dictator in putting the Res Publica back together
after the interregnum and should be lauded and thanked. He can step down
with the knowledge of a job well done.
Ave Germanicus!

Valete

Lucina Iunia Cypria

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 5/6
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:37:44 -0400

Salve,

> From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
> > c) Praetors serving as governors whose term in office as
> > praetor has expired, yet who are continuing in their role as governor,
as
> > well as those citizens whom the Senate shall appoint who are not
currently
> > serving as consul or praetor shall be called propraetors.
>
> Sulla: Sorry I dont want to be difficult I just want to make certain I
> understand...Governors are Preator's? The names Governor/Praetor are
being
> used interchangeable?

No. A governor could be a current praetor, a current consul, a past praetor,
a past consul, or just someone else appointed to the task. Thus:

Current consul who is also a covernor is called consul;
Past consul who is a governor is called proconsul;
Current praetor who is also a governor is called praetor;
Past praetor who is a governor is called propraetor;
Anyone else who is a governor is called propraetor (because theoretically
they have propraetorian Imperium).

So, only a governor who is also a currently-serving praetor is called
"praetor".

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 3/6
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:40:54 -0400

Salve,

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
>
>> 1. To invest elected and appointed magistrates with the
Imperium
>> necessary to employ coercitio (the power to compel obedience to his or
her
>> edicts, subject to the right of provocatio but under penalties determined
>> by law), interpret and execute law, and possess the honor of being
preceeded
>> by lictors as a symbol of office; >>
>>
> I'm confused by the wording. The Curiata will invest the authority. Is
this
> by a vote, or declaration? And this college will be appointed from
citizens
> by College of Pontiffs? How is this done? A tap on the shoulder?

It's a declaration (see the Decretum Comitia Curiata which states "At such a
time, the lictores curiata shall invest the newly incoming magistrate with
the Imperium necessary to fulfill their offices, as required by paragraph
III.A.1. of the Constitution of Nova Roma, by the issuance of a lex curiata
de imperio...").

Hopefully, there will be enough volunteers for the position of lictor
curiata. Otherwise, there's no reason they couldn't be co-opted. (It's not
like there's a whole lot to do; witnessing things done by the Pontifex
Maximus, mostly.)

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	The Eagle
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:43:28 -0400

Salvete Omnes!

It is with great pleasure that I would like to announce that Marcus Minucius
Audens has agreed to take on the position of curator differum (although the
title is subject to change; I think the latin is correct but I could be
wrong)-- editor of our newsletter.

Congratulations, Audens, and I am certain you'll do a terrific job.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	Age
From:	Donmeaker@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:56:58 EDT

> From: Spurius Lusorius Obitus Maximus <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=034075066007127132130232203245129208071" >lusorius@--------</a>
>
> Salvete,
>
> I feel that an age restriction may be a wise policy in general.
> However, before we take any action, I feel it would be prudent to
> examine the list of citizens and determine how many, if any, current
> patresfamiliarum and matresfamiliarum would be affected by each
> proposed change.

May I suggest that the head of the family was the oldest of the
family. If a younger man begins a family, and then a older joins
the Gens, is not the older now head? The job of being the head of
a family is not too onerous when there is only one person in it. It
may become more difficult as the family grows, whether by natural
increase or adoption. In either case, the oldest member of the
Gens should be the Pater. For example, the Gens Cornelia was
begun for NR by Lucius Cornelius Sulla, age 26. I, Gaius Cornelius
Mamertinus was asked to join, and at age 44 would I now be
paterfamilias?

Perhaps there should be a different position, called "founder" that would not
move.

Don Meaker
Gaius Cornelius Mamertinus

Subject:	Re: Age of Pater/Materfamilias
From:	AC1917@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:54:04 EDT

I agree with Lusorius. Age limitations on pater/materfamilias, while a good
idea, should not be made retroactive. They should apply to citizens enrolled
post-ratification of new Constitution.

Camillus Severus Antoninus

Subject:	Re: The Eagle
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:55:57 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Dictator Germanicus, and Consul Palladius;

I am honored at your faith in my ability to produce the Eagle. Any poor
efforts of mine shall surely pale beside that of our former "editor",
but I will make the effort. I will need the address list for the Eagle
Subscribers, and will set the date of the end of July as a deadline for
the submission of articles for the next issue, with the next issue to be
sent out in the first week of August.

I ask all Nova Roma Citizens who wish to do so send me your comments,,
poetry, articles, etc. and help make this a well rounded newsletter.

I thank you all for your kind support in this endeavor, and I wish to
thank Dictator Germanicus again for his faith in my abilities, as well
as the support that I have received from both he and Consul Palladius
in this matter..

Vale, Dictator Germanicus and Consul Palladius;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Re: Provinciae in Europa (long)
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:57:54 GMT

Salve

I agree with Golia on an item... naming a provincia transGermania that
includes Poland is just insulting. My Polish ancestors would roll over in
their graves.

Vale

Lucina Iunia Cypria

(nee Tinnekke Marye Sophia Franjeska Bogucka)

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Question
From:	AC1917@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:06:00 EDT

Hmmm. Perhaps here we see the clientela question that someone brought
up a few weeks ago. Perhaps it would be a good idea if a new citizen under
the age limit, instead of having to join another gens, were given/assigned to
a gens who would then serve as his mentor. The new citizen would have the
option of either joining that gens or having a mentor/protege relationship
with that gens (while retaining their own separate identity).
On reaching "maturity" the new citizen would then be able to become
pater/materfamilias of their own gens.
On the plus side, I think this sort of relationship would be good for
those who are just getting interested in Roma -- and would benefit from
someone "showing them the ropes", as it were. On the downside, it would
require that the patron gens take an active interest in the new citizen --
more work. And of course, the censores would have to keep track of all of
this.
Any opinions, citizens?

Camillus Severus Antoninus

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Question
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:50:10 GMT

Salve



>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=100065242212067005015098190036129" >AC1917@--------</--------;
>
> Hmmm. Perhaps here we see the clientela question that someone brought
>up a few weeks ago. Perhaps it would be a good idea if a new citizen
>under
>the age limit, instead of having to join another gens, were given/assigned
>to
>a gens who would then serve as his mentor. The new citizen would have the
>option of either joining that gens or having a mentor/protege relationship
>with that gens (while retaining their own separate identity).
> On reaching "maturity" the new citizen would then be able to become
>pater/materfamilias of their own gens.
> On the plus side, I think this sort of relationship would be good for
>those who are just getting interested in Roma -- and would benefit from
>someone "showing them the ropes", as it were. On the downside, it would
>require that the patron gens take an active interest in the new citizen --
>more work. And of course, the censores would have to keep track of all of
>this.
> Any opinions, citizens?
I think it's a wonderful idea

Vale
Cypria

Subject:	Re: The Eagle
From:	"Nathan Hicks" moman@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:35:58 -0400

-----Original Message-----
From: Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 9:41 AM
Subject: [novaroma] The Eagle


>From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> >
>Salvete Omnes!
>
>It is with great pleasure that I would like to announce that Marcus
Minucius
>Audens has agreed to take on the position of curator differum (although the
>title is subject to change; I think the latin is correct but I could be
>wrong)-- editor of our newsletter.


He has my wishes for the Eagle's continued success...
A very daring man, indeed, is Audens, in seeking out
such a difficult duty.

At the same time I have a suggestion for the name of
his post. I suggest that it be called the 'Editor'. This
word is made of the linguistic components 'e-' and 'da'
and means the 'giver-out' or the 'publisher'. It should
fit well.

Rusticus

Subject:	Re: The Eagle
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:30:03 -0400 (EDT)

Rusticus;

Your words are very kind and complimentary, but I must admit that the
task "sought me out", not the other way around!!!

I tnank you also for reminding me that my Snail Mail address is:

James L. Mathews
1319 Baldwin Hill Road
Gales Ferry, CT
06335-1801

In case any subscriber, magistrate, or submitter needs to get me by
mail. My phone is currently unlisted due to my wife's work.

You have been with NR for sometime Rusticus and certainly have the
credentials. Would you be willing to provide something for this first
issue? I was thinking in terms of your primary interests in Nova Roma,
whatever they might be. Thank You for your kind words and consideration
of my request.

Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: The Eagle
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:44:23 -0400 (EDT)

Rusticus

Name Change--While Dictator Germanicus has indicated that the name of
the newsletter is subject to change, in my humble estimation, "EDITOR"
is somewhat self-seving and therefore to be considered at length, for
two very good reasons:

--The "Eagle" has enjoyed a definite succes in NR and that name is bound
up with the success of the micro-nation to date. This success has
given it a certain panache that a new name would not bring to it;

--Secondly, I suppose there is a better name for the newsletter
somewhere in the Lexicon of languages that we use, but offhand I cannot
think of any. "Eagle" supports the idea of Rome and the culture of
Rome, and coupled with the first reason, I believe it to be hard to
beat.

I thank you for your comments and I will retain a copy of your
suggestion for possible future use.

Thank you for your idea.

Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 4/6
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:55:02 -0700

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> >
> Salve,
>
> > From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
> >
> > >one
> > > of the ordinarii be found to be derelict in his duties, that magistrate
> > > may
> > > be removed by a law originating in the comitia that elected him.
> >
> > Sulla: Who brings charges against the magistrate? A superior? I think
> > this should be spelled out...That is such a broad and sweeping statement.
>
> That depends on the magistrate in question. Those elected by the comitia
> centuriata would have charges brought by ether the consul or praetor
> urbanis, since they're the ones that convene that comitia. Those elected by
> the comitia plebis tributa would have charges brought by the tribunes of the
> plebs. And so on.
>
> > > e) To safeguard the regimen morum (public morality and
> honor)
> > > through the collegial administering of notae;
> > > (1) A nota against an ordinary individual is
> sufficient
> > > to deprive that individual of the right to vote until such time as it is
> > > removed;
> > > (2) A nota against a member of the Senate is
> sufficient
> > > to remove that individual from the Senate until such time as it is
> removed.
> >
> > Sulla: Regarding the above....are both Censors necessary to complete
> these
> > functions? Is there a legal remedy as a check to prevent potential
> abuses?
>
> Yes; both censors must take the action of issuing a nota together (that's
> what "collegial administration" means). The one censor is a check on the
> other (just as each magistrate is a check on his collegial partner).
>
> > Sulla: Didnt Praetor Urbanii have 8 Lictors and Praetor's have 6 Lictors?
>
> Not according to my OCD, p. 860.
>
> > Sulla: Also, I would add that that Dictator, once he/she has relinquished
> > his authorty cannot be held personally accountable for their actions while
> > they were Dictator.
>
> How so? The Senate can already overrule what the Dictator does. No other
> magistrate is so "personally accountable"; what exactly do you have in mind?
>

Sulla: Well...I am thinking about along the lines of Senatus Consultum de re
publica defendenda. Where actions taking during a time of emergency cannot be
held against the person, here, Dictator. Just an added protection for the
Dictator.

L. Cornelius Sulla


>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Dictator
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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Subject:	Re: The Eagle
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:02:44 -0700

Congrats Audens!!!! :)

James Mathews wrote:

> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
>
> Salve, Dictator Germanicus, and Consul Palladius;
>
> I am honored at your faith in my ability to produce the Eagle. Any poor
> efforts of mine shall surely pale beside that of our former "editor",
> but I will make the effort. I will need the address list for the Eagle
> Subscribers, and will set the date of the end of July as a deadline for
> the submission of articles for the next issue, with the next issue to be
> sent out in the first week of August.
>
> I ask all Nova Roma Citizens who wish to do so send me your comments,,
> poetry, articles, etc. and help make this a well rounded newsletter.
>
> I thank you all for your kind support in this endeavor, and I wish to
> thank Dictator Germanicus again for his faith in my abilities, as well
> as the support that I have received from both he and Consul Palladius
> in this matter..
>
> Vale, Dictator Germanicus and Consul Palladius;
> Very Respectfully;
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> The planet's eCenter for health & well-being. PlanetRX.
> <a href=" <a href="http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/planetrx1" target="_top" >http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/planetrx1</a> ">Click Here</a>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Re: The Eagle Writer's name.
From:	Rahnette@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:08:21 EDT

In a message da--------7/16/1999 10:40:34 AM Pacific Dayligh--------me, &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=029233014237078135050082190036" &g--------man@--------&l--------&g--------br> writes:

<< At the same time I have a suggestion for the name of
his post. I suggest that it be called the 'Editor'. This
word is made of the linguistic components 'e-' and 'da'
and means the 'giver-out' or the 'publisher'. It should
fit well.
>>
Greetings,
In Rome the "Editor" was the person who oversaw the game of the day. Since
you people are attempting to restore the Roman offices of the republic, this
would be a misuse of the name. Rome did not have newspapers, as we think of
them. Any government document that would be posted in the various Forums for
public consumption would be crafted by a scriptor, the work would be called a
scriptum.
Since it is a public office, maybe Scriba Primum First Clerk?
Farewell
Ronnie Septre
Roman Historical Analist

Subject:	Re: The Eagle
From:	"Nathan Hicks" moman@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:09:39 -0400

-----Original Message-----
From: James Mathe--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] The Eagle


From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------br>

> --Secondly, I suppose there is a better name for the newsletter
> somewhere in the Lexicon of languages that we use, but offhand I cannot
> think of any. "Eagle" supports the idea of Rome and the culture of
> Rome, and coupled with the first reason, I believe it to be hard to
> beat.

Actually, there has been a confusion of homonyms, Audens.
I wrote of your post, meaning your new responsibility; but I
do see how the word 'post' can be thought to refer to a news
publication: an instance of accidental ambiguity.

My suggestion is that 'the Editor of the Eagle' not 'Curator
Differum of the Eagle' is the best title for your new office.


Rusticus

Subject:	Re: The Eagle Writer's name.
From:	"Nathan Hicks" moman@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:34:10 -0400

-----Original Message-----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=085166214185056134050038203140129208071" >R--------tte@--------</--------; <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=085166214185056134050038203140129208071" >R--------tte@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] The Eagle Writer's name.


>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=085166214185056134050038203140129208071" >R--------tte@--------</--------;
>
>In a message dated 7/16/1999 10:40:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
&l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=029233014237078135050082190036" &g--------man@--------&l--------&g--------r> >writes:
>
><< At the same time I have a suggestion for the name of
> his post. I suggest that it be called the 'Editor'. This
> word is made of the linguistic components 'e-' and 'da'
> and means the 'giver-out' or the 'publisher'. It should
> fit well.
> >>

>
>Greetings,
>In Rome the "Editor" was the person who oversaw the game of the day.

In the OED, there is a 1649 citation for the current use of editor.
'Editor' was probably coined at just about the time that the specific
duties assigned to the position required that a new term be created.

>Since it is a public office, maybe Scriba Primum First Clerk?


Maybe... but it doesn't have the simple beauty of 'editor'.


Rusticus

Subject:	Re: The Eagle
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:41:58 -0400 (EDT)

Rusticus;

Well that wasn't a vey auspicious beginning!!! I misunderstood the
first post!! The name of the office as suggested by Dictator Germanicus
was:

--curator differum-- (What is the literal translation for that??

Mr. Ronnie Septre has weighed in with the following:

--Newsletter is called a Scriptum;
--Craftor of the newsletter is called a Scriptor;
--Office should be Scriba Primum.

You indicate:
--EDITOR (linguistc components "E-" and "da" and means "giver-out or the
publisher"

This is kinda of fun!!! Anybody else have any neat ideas?? Thanks Guys
for your thoughts.

Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: The Eagle: more writing
From:
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:05:00 EDT

In a message dated 7/16/1999 12:42:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------es:

<< Mr. Ronnie Septre has weighed in with the following:

--Newsletter is called a Scriptum;
---Crafter of the newsletter is called a Scriptor;
--Office should be Scriba Primum.
--curator differum-- (What is the literal translation for that??)

Greetings
MR. Septre? Y is masculine IE is feminine. (Dex help me out here)
curator differum would be Manager of dispersing. ie to spread (the news)
Rejoice,
Ronnie

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Question
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:03:25 -0700

Salvete, quirites.

I've been talking this one over and I must come out against the thought.

RCW (L. Cornelius Sulla) wrote:

> Salvete Germanicus,
>
> I have a question/suggestion. Do you think there should be a limit on the
> ages of the Pater/Materfamilias, due to the responsibility of the position?
> Having 18 and 19 year olds as parents responsible for the maintaince of a
> Gens? A family with responsibilty, let alone the respect to our ancestors?
> Sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly, hence why I am asking this
> question.
>
> L. Cornelius Sulla
> Praetor Urbanus et Senator

The basic question with any age requirement, and I mean any for anything, is that if there
is not a clear cut, right in front of your face *_"Thing"_* that can be seen, shown etc.
you are stuck with having to be arbitrary. Countries have been lowering the voting age,
which is also the age to serve on juries (in the USA at least). But the question in
regards to being a pater/materfamilias is connected to "Maturity". That, as we all know,
is not something that is handed out with a particular birthday. Without checking his
post, I believe I'm echoing Flavius Vedius in taking the line that if someone is old
enough to be a member, a _Citizen_, of Nova Roma they should have all the rights,
privileges, duties, responsibilities, etc. of a citizen. We have a lower class of
citizenship for those who are under the common legal age of consent of 18 years. That
should be enough. If there is a real desire that one should not be allowed to be the head
of a gens until they are indisputably of mature years then I suggest we seriously consider
making that age to be at lest 30 years of age. Perhaps 40, to be on the safe side.

Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius
Paterfamilias of ges Aelia
Senator of Nova Roma
Propraetor of California Provincia
Pontifex

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Question
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:46:46 -0400 (EDT)

--- Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> wrot--------r> > We have a lower class of citizenship for those who are under the common legal
> age of consent of 18 years. That should be enough. If there is a real
> desire that one should not be allowed to be the head of a gens until they are
> indisputably of mature years then I suggest we seriously consider making that
> age to be at lest 30 years of age. Perhaps 40, to be on the safe
> side.


Being the only member of the Gladia gens now that Saevus and Pythia are
gone--and therefore currently the materfamilias of that gens--I really have to
voice my two cents worth.

If a person at 21 can get married, have kids, and hold down a job at that age,
there's no reason why we should discriminate against those who are less than
30. Myself, I am 21. My mother got married to my father at my age. I am a
recent college graduate and am financially independent with a decent job as a
part of my career. If you want to prevent people 18 or 21 and younger from
being the leader of a gens based on laws and maturity, go right ahead. But I
think you're pushing it by asking that they at least be 30. I believe in
quality and not quantity, and know many people older than myself with little
wits about them, and are very immature, but have met people younger than I with
a good head on their shoulders.

Also, I think we must consider the person's background. Their qualifications.
Can they hold a leadership position? If so, then I say go for it. If not,
then that is a problem. Not their age, but their skills, not to mention
knowledge and experience. I've been involved in Paganism for nearly 7 years.
Should a 40 year old new to Paganism get control of my gens simply due to age?
That is ridiculous and absurd.


Follow me? :) I don't know why this is in dispute. I can see the 18 or over
issue--even the 21 or over issue. But to judge a person by their age will not
work. Not by a long shot.





Valete et khairete,


-Andrea Gladia Kyrinia



===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar/Andreia *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andreia/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Question
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:54:56 -0700

You should re-read my posting.

Kyrene Ariadne wrote:

> If a person at 21 can get married, have kids, and hold down a job at that age,
> there's no reason why we should discriminate against those who are less than
> 30. Myself, I am 21. My mother got married to my father at my age. I am a
> recent college graduate and am financially independent with a decent job as a
> part of my career. If you want to prevent people 18 or 21 and younger from
> being the leader of a gens based on laws and maturity, go right ahead.

I do NOT want to limit the age that a full Citizen of Nova Roma can be the head of a gens.

An 18 year old can marry, raise a family, hold a job. Vote. Serve on a jury. (In the
United States), as well as serve in the armed forces. An 18 year old can start to work on
being a police officer (I think they have to be 19 before being active, but are preferred
to be older). That is in the real world where more than egos and ulcers are involved. So
why not let someone who is old enough to be a Full Citizen of Nova Roma be a
x-terfamilia? I see no reason.

C. Aelius Ericius
all those titles as before

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Question
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:29:26 -0400 (EDT)

--- Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> wrot--------r> > You should re-read my posting.

Sorry, I did... it sounded like you were going for 30 or 40 years of age for
maturity, and I couldn't tell if it was sarcasm or seriousness. Hence I
responded with seriousness.

My apologies for not understanding.

> I do NOT want to limit the age that a full Citizen of Nova Roma can be the
> head of a gens.

Wonderful! Glad we agree. :>

> An 18 year old can marry, raise a family, hold a job. Vote. Serve on a jury.
> (In the
> United States), as well as serve in the armed forces. An 18 year old can
> start to work on
> being a police officer (I think they have to be 19 before being active, but
> are preferred
> to be older). That is in the real world where more than egos and ulcers are
> involved. So
> why not let someone who is old enough to be a Full Citizen of Nova Roma be a
> x-terfamilia? I see no reason.

Neither do I. :>




Valete et khairete,



-Andrea Gladia Kyrinia










===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar/Andreia *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andreia/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-

Subject:	Latin Correction
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:43:32 -0400 (EDT)

R. Septre;

I am not conversant in Latin. Your explanation about "y" and "IE" means
little to me, and I thought that I was addressing you politely. My
apologies.

M.M. Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: The Eagle
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:50:44 -0400 (EDT)

Salve Senator Sulla;

I thank you for your congratulations, and I am looking forward to
something from you for the Eagle in regard to Roman Law. As you know
that is not a topic with which I am overly familiar, and a basic article
on some aspect of it would e of great advantage to the Eagle.

Vale, Senator Sulla;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: The Eagle
From:	Steven Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:02:42 -0700

Wes Thu Marcus Minucius Audens Hail!!!

Articles will be on their way to you by the middle of next week!

My friend, you shall do an outstanding job, one worthy of the standard which
the departed Flavia Claudia set.

In Frith og Troth - Piparskegg

Wait a minute, wrong tribal group!

Ave et atque Audens! Vivat! Vale - Venator

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 5/6
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:34:27 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, RCW wrote:

> From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> > To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 3:26 PM

> > c) Praetors serving as governors whose term in office as
> > praetor has expired, yet who are continuing in their role as governor, as
> > well as those citizens whom the Senate shall appoint who are not currently
> > serving as consul or praetor shall be called propraetors.

> Sulla: Sorry I dont want to be difficult I just want to make certain I
> understand...Governors are Preator's? The names Governor/Praetor are being
> used interchangeable?

No, they are not. To add to the explanation by Flavius Vedius, the
reference to Praetor refers to elected Praetors, to the Praetores Urbanii.
They will have the option (it is an option, Flavius Vedius?) of governing
the province they live in since by virtue of their imperium they will
outrank anyone appointed governor. The term propraetor will refer to
a) anyone previously a praetor urbanus (who has not held the position of
consul) who is no longer in that elected position of praetor urbanus;
b)any other person appointed to the position of governor (in other words,
propraetor will be anyone who has not held the rank of consul and is not
currently serving as an elected praetor urbanus.


Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius
Consul

Subject:	Congratulations Audens!
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:36:58 -0400 (EDT)

Congratulations Marce Minuci Audens! The Eagle is in most capable hands!

Vale,


Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Age of pater/maters
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:41:45 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete! Just to add my 2 cents, I think that it may be possible to raise
the age of future pater/materfamiliae but not for currently existing
gentes. They could be grandfathered into law if this had to be done. I see
no pressing need for this currently, however.

As to the suggestion that the oldest member of a gens be the
pater/materfamiliae, well, if a gens wishes to set up their gens that way
that is fine. However, I do not think the state should legislate the
internal affairs of Nova Roma's families.

Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Non scholae sed vitae discimus.

Seneca


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Such things have often happened and still happen,
and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
Extant 331-363 A.D.

Subject:	Re: Age of pater/maters
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:55:09 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 8:41 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Age of pater/maters


> From: Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a>
>

I wasnt saying that we should remove our current Mater/Pater's from their
current position. My whole question was one of future reference and
maturity. Gn. Tarquinus Caesar and I talked about this yesterday and he
felt we should create a measure. Granted I dont know just how that can be
done. But, I feel just blindly accepting Young Civies to join NR and
creating a new Gens, then once there not have the maturity, and sense of
responsibility that being a Pater/Mater demands....would be irresponsible on
our end. Becuase we are a serious organization, with serious goals and
objectives. That was why I brought it up in the very first place.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
Praetor Urbanus

>
> Salvete! Just to add my 2 cents, I think that it may be possible to raise
> the age of future pater/materfamiliae but not for currently existing
> gentes. They could be grandfathered into law if this had to be done. I see
> no pressing need for this currently, however.
>
> As to the suggestion that the oldest member of a gens be the
> pater/materfamiliae, well, if a gens wishes to set up their gens that way
> that is fine. However, I do not think the state should legislate the
> internal affairs of Nova Roma's families.
>
> Valete,
>
> Decius Iunius Palladius,
> Consul
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
>
> Non scholae sed vitae discimus.
>
> Seneca
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
> "Such things have often happened and still happen,
> and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"
>
> Julian, Emperor of Rome 361-363 A.D.
> Extant 331-363 A.D.
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> The planet's eCenter for health & well-being. PlanetRX.
> <a href=" <a href="http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/planetrx1" target="_top" >http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/planetrx1</a> ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Subject:	Announcement
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:57:13 -0700

Salvete Omnes

I just wanted to let everyone know that My Gens has created a mailing list for the Patrician Gens Cornelia. All members of the Gens Cornelia please feel free to e-mail me and I will be more than happy to subscribe you. Our numbers have expanded and I think that this will allow us a better way to communicate with each other.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Paterfamilia of the Gens Cornelia
Praetor Urbanus