| Subject: |
Re: Age of pater/maters |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:12:52 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/16/99 8:55:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
Salvete!
<< Gn. Tarquinus Caesar and I talked about this yesterday and he
felt we should create a measure. >>
Well, what I was thinking was this...require some sort of 'creed' or
statement, in which the applicant can explain why (something to the effect of
'What is stopping you from joining an existing gens?') he wants to create a
new gens,... whatever the case may be...The maturity of the applicant may
also be shown in the 'creed.' Maybe a question like 'what contributions does
your gens plan to make if accepted' or 'what types of activities will your
gens plan and participate in' or 'do you see yourself as a qualified
head-of-family, and why.' All of these could help determine wether or not the
prospective citizen is ready to fill that particular position. It would also
be a good idea to stress, stress, and stress again, the amount of dedication
that should be required from a pater/materfamilias, and *all* of the
responsibilities that come with it. The Censors, or their assistants now that
they will have them, could activly correspond with prospective citizens for
several days, or however long is necesary to determine the 'ability'(for lack
of a better term), of the prospective cit, in question. That being done, the
Censors could inform that person that they are the pater/materfamilias of a
new Nova Roman gens, or that they should talk with other citizens about being
sponsored for citizenship, and reapply after they do so. This should by no
means be age oriented, and should be done for all aspiring
pater/materfamiliae, whether 18 or 55. Those who are mature enough to handle
the responsibility, will understand why we are questioning them, and the most
mature will appreciate it and get a gleaming impression of our Republic.
Afterall, the pater/materfamilias is the crux of Roman society, and we will
be sending the message that not just any 'Joe Schmoe' can step up to that
position. It could save us some headaches in the long run as well.
Now this may be impractical as far as the workload goes, or no one may want
to turn away *any* citizen that applies, regardless of, well....anything.
This is only a humble suggestion of how I would do it. If I am mistaken, and
this is a bad way to handle this, kindly let me know why.
Valete,
Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
Paterfamilias gens Tarquinia
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Question |
| From: |
Ira Adams iadams@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 06:36:35 -0500 |
|
Salve Caius Aelius,
I agree completely with your remarks. I had been thinking 35 should be
the absolute minimum age to head a family, but I could go with 30.
Or maybe we should just leave it alone. What is there that makes some
cives think that the State should be restricting the freedom of other
citizens to manage their own affairs as they choose unless they do
something that constitutes a wrong to others? If someone is old enough to
be a responsible citizen then they are old enough to be a responsible
family head. Let's leave it alone.
Wasn't it Jefferson who said that government governs best that governs
least?
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust.
|
| Subject: |
Tyr |
| From: |
Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 06:45:02 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete, Quirites.
There can be no doubt that the new Constitution unveiled by Germanicus is an
honest effort to correct the deficiencies in his earlier work. He has
gathered the best ideas from all of Nova Roma, and I have high hopes for the
success of the new government.
Yet for all of his patient and conscientious labor, there remains an ugly
stain on the record of Germanicus's dictatorship. This is the matter of his
unjust treatment of a single citizen.
The Powers That Be say that there was no legal way to impeach the Censores.
This is nonsense. To impeach means to indict, to accuse, and nothing in the
old Constitution forbade that. Furthermore, Article V, Section 5 stated
that "There shall be no limit on the issues upon which a Senatus Consultum
may be issued..." Thus, in the absence of a specific procedure for removing
magistrates from office, this general power of the Senate most certainly
applied. Oh, yes, the same section of the Constitution also referred to
ratification by one of the three Comitia, but that never stopped the Senate
from doing anything; in fact, three dozen Consulta were passed under the old
Constutition, and they have all been honored as valid.
And still, Quirites, the Powers That Be present no evidence to the People
against Cincinnatus. I have said, and I continue to say, that there is
none. Cincinnatus is guilty of nothing, he is merely inconvenient to the
Powers That Be. And I have said, and I continue to say, that so long as one
man may be treated unjustly -- condemned without trial, expelled without due
process of law -- each of us is in peril. How can there be justice for all
if justice is denied to one?
The Dictator Germanicus has refused to render Roman justice to Cincinnatus.
Very well. I now invoke the justice of the Gods of the North. I now cast
the Rune of Justice, the Tyr. I will give up my Senate seat if Cincinnatus
will be fully restored to his citizenship and his offices. I shove my right
fist in the mouth of the wolf.
As for the rest, it is my opinion that Cincinnatus must be fully restored!
Valete,
Marcus Martianus Gangalius
Aedilis Curule et Vebsitarius Maximus
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm</a>
Mars Society California
The Martian Time Web Site
The Martian Ministry of Culture
Nova Roma
World GenWeb Calabria
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too)
The National Primary System
The Art of Darius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Congratulations Audens! |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@--------) |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:06:34 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, Censor, Senator and Consul Palladius;
I appreciate your kind words and your support in this endeavor. I shall
of course do my best for NR, in any role assigned.
Vale, Censor Senator, and Consul Palladius;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: Tyr |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:36:35 EDT |
|
Salve Marcus Martianus,
I am in total agreement with everything you have said here.
The basis of the Roman approach to government is adherence to the rule of
law. Cincinnatus has violated no law. On the contrary, he has tried
repeatedly to move others to carry out the laws. "The Powers That Be"
have revealed themselves as contemptuous of the rule of law in the way
they have proceeded in this matter -- for them, apparently, law is simply
something to be used and abused when it suits their personal agendae.
Many of their illegal activities, such as failure to constitute the
Comitiae, and holding illegal elections, or closing down the nation (the
so-called "Interregnum"), might be excused as unintentional failings or
as honest attempts to deal with awkward situations arising from the
incomplete status of the structure of NR's government. However the
disenfranchisement of Cincinnatus cannot be disguised as anything other
than what it is: a vicious abuse of power for the purpose of a personal
vendetta.
As long as Cincinnatus is not fully restored, none of these new steps and
reforms means anything, and Nova Roma is nothing but a private farce
masquarading as a lawful micronation.
This is not a matter to be quietly swept under the rug while we go on
playing at being Roman. True Romans will refuse to support a government
in which law means nothing to those who wield power for their own
purposes.
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust.
Where is Marcus Iunius Brutus when we need him?
|
| Subject: |
Re: Tyr (Equitius' innocence) |
| From: |
SFP55@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:51:03 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/17/1999 9:37:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:
<< As long as Cincinnatus is not fully restored, none of these new steps and
reforms means anything, and Nova Roma is nothing but a private farce
masquarading as a lawful micronation.
This is not a matter to be quietly swept under the rug while we go on
playing at being Roman. True Romans will refuse to support a government
in which law means nothing to those who wield power for their own
purposes. >>
Salvete!
Once again I call the Senate to investigate one of their own. If there is
doubt of any wrong doing, then Lucius Equitius should be reinstated.
Vale!
Q. Fabius
|
| Subject: |
The Death of Professor G.D.B. (Barri) Jones |
| From: |
SFP55@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:53:16 EDT |
|
Salvete
Many Romanists will be saddened to hear of the sudden and unexpected
death of Professor G.D.B. (Barri) Jones (University of Manchester) on 16
July 1999.
Barri was well known for his work on Roman frontiers, the UNESCO
Libyan Valleys Survey, Roman mining and aerial photography.
Indeed this is a huge loss. Jones' books on the Limes were extremely
coherent and helpful. Charon grant him a safe journey.
Velete
Q. Fabius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Qualifications? |
| From: |
"Keith Seddon" K.H.S@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:41:46 +0100 |
|
Andrea Gladia Kyrinia wrote, re age restrictions on
paterfamilias/materfamilias:
________________________
I believe in quality and not quantity, and know many people older than
myself with little
wits about them, and are very immature, but have met people younger than I
with
a good head on their shoulders.
Also, I think we must consider the person's background. Their
qualifications.
________________________
Maybe there should be an EXAMINATION for people who would like to me a
paterfamilias or materfamilias?
Or how about an examination for citizenship, and a HARDER examination for
paterfamilias/materfamilias?
Let's make sure that every new citizen and paterfamilias/materfamilias
actually knows something about Rome. If this measure had been in place
earlier, I would not have had to consign nearly so much rubbish off this
list to my waste-bin as I have had to do over the last month.
The questions could be based on the Nova Roma website, and we could find
out
if anyone actually reads any of it.
Live with honour,
L. Gellius Severus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Govern the least? |
| From: |
"Keith Seddon" K.H.S@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:53:54 +0100 |
|
L. Sergius Aust. wrote:
________________________
Wasn't it Jefferson who said that government governs best that governs
least?
________________________
It matters least who said it, and matters most whether it is true.
Live with honour,
L. Gellius Severus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Tyr |
| From: |
Cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:02:48 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/17/99 9:45:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
writes:
Gangalius:
> The Powers That Be say that there was no legal way to impeach the Censores.
Cassius
First of all, I'd like to know exactly who the "Powers That Be" are. (With
the exception of Germanicus, who lays down the Dictator position this next
week.) Most of the people who weren't on the "Committee" side of the recent
blowup have in fact left Nova Roma. Most of the folks who *were* on the
Committee have in fact been elevated to Senatorial/Magisterial positions, and
Patrician gens. As far as I'm concerned, once Germanicus lays down his
temporary office as Dictator, the people who were out to impeach the Censors
will be basically in control of Nova Roma.
I myself almost quit Nova Roma this last week. Hard to stick around when a
bunch of your friends have basically said: 'Thanks for creating Nova Roma!
Now get out.'
I've already taken steps to limit my involvement besides stepping down as
Censor. This has included completely removing myself from everything related
to the website, (most especially including paying the bills for it) and
working to make sure that the Board of Directors is handed over to the
Committee. Oops! New Senate, I meant!
All that being said, I have been putting my personal support toward
reinstating Cincinnatus as much as possible. I fully endorse returning his
Citizenship, Patrician Gens, Senatorship, and his position as Flamen
Martialis. Germanicus has declared that there must be a vote for the
Consulship once this term is over... and Cincinnatus would have to abide THAT
however. Perhaps he'd care to run on his merits achieved in his old office?
He'd have as much chance as my being spontaneously re-elected as Censor I
think! ;)
Gangalius:
> This is nonsense. To impeach means to indict, to accuse, and nothing in the
old Constitution forbade that. Furthermore, Article V, Section 5 stated
that "There shall be no limit on the issues upon which a Senatus Consultum
may be issued..." Thus, in the absence of a specific procedure for removing
magistrates from office, this general power of the Senate most certainly
applied. Oh, yes, the same section of the Constitution also referred to
ratification by one of the three Comitia, but that never stopped the Senate
from doing anything; in fact, three dozen Consulta were passed under the old
Constutition, and they have all been honored as valid.
Cassius:
The difficulty with your argument is that the Senate did NOT pass a Senatus
Consultum to remove the Censors. Quite the reverse in fact: the Senate did
NOT support the impeachment efforts of the Committee, which was made up of
about five lower magistrates and one or two private Citizens. Cincinnatus'
Senatorial vote was the only one for the impeachment. The rest of the
Senators voted to end this attempt to tear the government of Nova Roma apart,
and appointed a Dictator.
Gangalius:
>And still, Quirites, the Powers That Be present no evidence to the People
against Cincinnatus. I have said, and I continue to say, that there is
none. Cincinnatus is guilty of nothing, he is merely inconvenient to the
Powers That Be. And I have said, and I continue to say, that so long as one
man may be treated unjustly -- condemned without trial, expelled without due
process of law -- each of us is in peril. How can there be justice for all
if justice is denied to one?
Cassius:
Since an offer has been made to reinstate Cincinnatus' Citizenship, and all
his offices but one, (as far as I know) I hardly think that he's being
"denied" as such. The only thing that hasn't been done is to:
1. Accept that Cincinnatus was acting correctly when he went against the
will of the Senate by leading the backroom politics attempt at Impeachment.
2. Declare the Dictatorship invalid as Cincinnatus has been suggesting on the
list, thereby invalidating the new Constitution and Laws (but leaving
Cincinnatus as Consul, apparently the main issue here!).
Gangalius:
>The Dictator Germanicus has refused to render Roman justice to Cincinnatus.
Very well. I now invoke the justice of the Gods of the North. I now cast
the Rune of Justice, the Tyr. I will give up my Senate seat if Cincinnatus
will be fully restored to his citizenship and his offices. I shove my right
fist in the mouth of the wolf.
Cassius:
Yowza!
Gangalius:
>As for the rest, it is my opinion that Cincinnatus must be fully restored!
Cassius:
My own feeling is that *everybody* has taken far too many hits lately... most
especially the Citizens who are here to be involved with Roman
culture/religion rather than just bitter politics. Let Cincinnatus be
restored as Citizen, Patrician, Senator and Priest. Let a new Consular
election be held in accord with the new Constitution and laws, and let there
be peace.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
|
| Subject: |
Mars Pater [was Tyr] |
| From: |
Razenna razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:20:17 -0700 |
|
I do not really have anything different to say on this matter than what the previous
citizens have stated. I quote L.Sergius Australicus in extent because his words are clear
to me. Out of context the points are:
1. The basis of the Roman approach to government is adherence to the rule of
law.
2. Cincinatus has violated no law.
3. "The Powers That Be"
have revealed themselves as contemptuous of the rule of law in the way
they have proceeded in this matter -- for them, apparently, law is simply
something to be used and abused when it suits their personal agendae.
4. (However) the disenfranchisement of Cincinatus cannot be disguised as anything other
than what it is: a vicious abuse of power for the purpose of a personal
vendetta. [What did Cincinatus do to instill that much animosity? Come on! Lay it
out.]
5. As long as Cincinatus is not fully restored, none of the(se) new steps and
reforms means anything, and Nova Roma is nothing but a private farce
masquerading as a lawful micronation.
6. This is not a matter to be quietly swept under the rug while we go on
playing at being Roman.
Ericius in his own write: There will always be a sense of distrust of the men behind the
curtains long as the palace coup that shut down Nova Roma, shit canned the original
constitution and tossed out L. Equitius Cincinatus is not faced and adjudicated by the
people of Nova Roma. I have seen fearsome amounts of double talk, and double think, since
we got clobbered by that palace coup. Did nobody note, dow nobody remember, that the
notice of "Interregnum" was actually declaring that Nova Roma was over as a political
being? That the "board of directors", whom had not been thought to be the lords and
masters of Nova Roma, Declared Nova Roma to be out of our hands? (Most of us gave them
no thought at all, those who were aware of their existence at all.) Why should any of us
trust that "The Powers That Be" will not pull the plug again? They do own the sites. M.
Martianus Gangalius had been working as the webbie (what ever invented Latin name was
being used at that time), yet he was locked out when the true Owners decided they didn't
like the way things were going.
We are still playing the game. There are people who are just lapping up all that they are
being given. Some of it looks good. But why should we have faith in it?
Trust was readily given the first time. It must be earned the second time.
I speak to you from my heart and my soul and my mind.
Humberto Elia Ricci, Jr.
(C. Aelius Ericius)
The original post of L. Sergius Australicus in toto:
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
Salve Marcus Martianus,
I am in total agreement with everything you have said here.
The basis of the Roman approach to government is adherence to the rule of
law. Cincinnatus has violated no law. On the contrary, he has tried
repeatedly to move others to carry out the laws. "The Powers That Be"
have revealed themselves as contemptuous of the rule of law in the way
they have proceeded in this matter -- for them, apparently, law is simply
something to be used and abused when it suits their personal agendae.
Many of their illegal activities, such as failure to constitute the
Comitiae, and holding illegal elections, or closing down the nation (the
so-called "Interregnum"), might be excused as unintentional failings or
as honest attempts to deal with awkward situations arising from the
incomplete status of the structure of NR's government. However the
disenfranchisement of Cincinnatus cannot be disguised as anything other
than what it is: a vicious abuse of power for the purpose of a personal
vendetta.
As long as Cincinnatus is not fully restored, none of these new steps and
reforms means anything, and Nova Roma is nothing but a private farce
masquarading as a lawful micronation.
This is not a matter to be quietly swept under the rug while we go on
playing at being Roman. True Romans will refuse to support a government
in which law means nothing to those who wield power for their own
purposes.
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust.
|
| Subject: |
Proposed Consitiution comments/question & Volunteer |
| From: |
"Gary E. McGrath" Garymac@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:24:49 -0400 |
|
Salve,
After reviewing the proposed constitution as prepared by Flavius
Vedius Germanicus I would just like to say that what I read reflects
Germanicus' great ability to cut to the heart of the matter with a
minimum of confusion. It's clarity and conciousness compel me to say
WELL DONE and while I'm a recently admitted citizen (June 1999) I offer
Germanicus and this proposed constitution my complete and wholehearted
support!
Now, as for my question, please excuse my ignorance but in answer to
one of Germanicus' responses to Sulla's questions on the number of
Lictors for a Praetor Urbanii and Praetor's it was said -- "not
according to my OCD, p 860" My question is, what is the "OCD?"
As to my "volunteering", I am responding, again to Germanicus' reply
to a question where he says: "Hopefully, there will be enough volunteers
for the position of Lictor Curiata. . ." If I'm not confused (which at
times I fully admit that I am, especially with all the recent
"troubles") I would like to volunteer for this position. Again my
apologies if I'm being ignorant or presumptuous.
Finally I would like to publicly thank all of those gracious
citizens and magistrates who took the time out of their busy days during
the recent "troubles" to welcome me to citizenship in Nova Roma and
offer their assistance as well:
DECIUS IUNIUS PALLADIUS
QUINTUS FABIUS MAXIMUS and our wise Dictator
FLAVIUS VEDIUS GERMANICUS.
May the Gods look down upon us all with their approval!!
Vale,
Marcus Arrius Julianus
"For zeal to do all that is in one's power is, in truth, a proof of
piety."
Flavius Claudius Julianus
Emperor Julian II (the Blessed)
360 ce (1113 auc)
|
| Subject: |
Re: Mars Pater [was Tyr] |
| From: |
Diomus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:46:35 EDT |
|
Salve!
I have heard of this parallel between Tyr and Mars before. Do you have any
information which would evidence this? The best that I can tell Tyr is an
old sky god who then became a god of justice after his bout with the Fenris
Wolf whereas Mars is a god of war. I myself haven't come across any
information that would link the two deities but if you have some I would
greatly appreciate you sharing it with me. Thanks and bright blessings.
Vale
Flavius Lucianus Diomus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Proposed Consitiution comments/question & Volunteer |
| From: |
Diomus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:58:14 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/17/99 2:28:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=244166091200038031025218051036129208" >Garymac@--------</a> --------es:
<< After reviewing the proposed constitution as prepared by Flavius
Vedius Germanicus I would just like to say that what I read reflects
Germanicus' great ability to cut to the heart of the matter with a
minimum of confusion. It's clarity and conciousness compel me to say
WELL DONE and while I'm a recently admitted citizen (June 1999) I offer
Germanicus and this proposed constitution my complete and wholehearted
support!
Vale,
Marcus Arrius Julianus
Well said Julianus. I am a recently admitted citizen myself and your
remarks sums up my position as well! I was very concerned when I first began
to look into Nova Roma upon hearing that a dictator had been appointed. In
fact I almost put Nova Roma completely out of my mind. But now that some
time has past I have to admit that I am very pleased with Germanicus'
efforts. He did not turn out to be the evil, cold-hearted, iron fisted, mean
spirited, figure that was invoked in my mind by the word dictator.
Germanicus I salute you. As far as I can tell you've done a great job.
Vale
Flavius Lucianus Diomus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Fine, let's talk about this then! Was: Tyr |
| From: |
Cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:06:07 EDT |
|
Salvete Omnes,
I feel that I have no choice but to reply to the latest comments by L.
Sergius Aust.
While I feel that Cincinnatus should be restored as Citizen, Patrician,
Senator and Priest, I simply cannot go without expressing the OTHER side of
the issues yet again brought up.
The following is a letter from my recent correspondences with Scaevola
Magister, lately one of the people involved with the Impeachment Committe. My
apologies Scaevola for publishing correspondence meant for you only - I
simply don't have the time to retype all issues over yet again! Also
apologies to all Citizens for my posting a letter rather than an official
speech on the subject:
In a message dated 7/5/99 6:01:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=174176211056207031025158175026172165098048139046" >MikeMa--------r@--------</a> writes:
Scaevola:
> My email to you was an expression of willingness to consider the
possibility that I might have been wrong in this matter.
Cassius:
Fine. I'll take the time to write out what I know, but don't believe for a
moment that it will change anything.
Firstly, I'll say one thing about the Committee. You were *not* wrong that
there was a problem with the Tribes being assigned. Nobody was screaming
about that louder than me, however.
Germanicus was originally going to be the person that set up the Tribes and
Centuries. Sadly, he was not able to finish during the first year, and in
fact left Nova Roma for a time. In doing that he also gave up the Censorship,
and sadly was not later allowed by the Senate to continue with the project.
When my Co-Consul (Germanicus) left NR was completely in an uproar. It took
MONTHS to get everything calmed down. After that the roller-coaster ride
didn't let up in the least... it was time for the elections and yet another
war as everyone went insane yelling at each other. I myself was stretched to
the limit trying to keep some sort of order as important people started to
jump ship; folks like Aprica who resigned her Praetorship and others who
resigned their Citizenship altogether. Oh, and I was responsible for the
elections too, etc., etc. Not to mention other crises like Sulla trying to
get the Constitution declared invalid because we didn't have a Supremacy
Clause!
Finally, the elections were over. In January I was incredibly busy at work,
as we were opening up a new building for the family company and moving
ourselves into it. I was working something like 70 hour weeks for a couple of
months. At that time the furor over the tribes was starting yet again, once
everyone had calmed down from the infighting the elections (with tribes or
not!) had engendered.
At this point, still absorbed at work, I informed Consul Cincinnatus that I
was simply unable to form the tribes. In no uncertain terms I made it clear
that I simply didn't know anything *about* them... and that it'd probably two
or three months of being in my new job before I'd have the time to do the
research and set them up properly. I told him that he'd have to get the
Senate to find someone to figure out the tribal system and get the Citizens
assigned into it if he wanted it done before then.
It was then, in January I believe, that Cincinnatus absolved me of the work
of the tribes, and told me he'd set up the system himself. Decius Iunius had
also plead off the project, also on the grounds that he wasn't particularly
knowledgeable and had no ideas for how to do it. Did Cincinnatus then form a
Committee to work on the project? No.. he never introduced the issue to the
Senate or anywhere else. Instead he assured Decius and I that he knew about
the tribes, and, since he's retired and at home he'd have plenty of time to
set up the system himself.
Unfortunately, he didn't. January ended, and February passed, then March!
People were SCREAMING for the tribes, and Cincinnatus was still balking,
saying that he couldn't even come up with a system for the tribes until he
had an absolutely complete Citizen's list.
Some background info here... The Citizens list is done in Microsoft Excel.
Neither Decius or I had that software or knew how to use it. At the time
Flavia Iucunda was then keeping the Citizens List officially ... except that
she accidentally deleted about three months worth of Citizens! Decius
Iunius and I now had to go back into old Email files and try to re-create
what we'd sent to Flavia Iucunda, so we could forward it on to Cincinnatus -
because he refused to even think of a tribal system until he had every last
new Citizen to assign all at once. By this point I was rather stuck... I had
no personal time, still couldn't research the tribes, and had to re-create a
bunch of work and re-contact Citizens to confirm it because Cincinnatus
wouldn't do them without complete info.
Then of course, with April came the NEW crisis. The whole issue with Sulla
and the Senate board blew up... and the Senate basically ceased to exist.
Cincinnatus and Flavia Claudia were determined to strip Sulla of his
Citizenship, everybody else thought it just wasn't that big an issue. Both
Germanicus and Flavia Claudia resigned, then came back. Nobody would talk to
anybody else (except to me... I managed to stay on speaking terms with
everyone) and NO business was done for something like 30 full days. In
effect, Nova Roma had no government whatsoever above the level of Provincial
Praetor. The only office that WAS still functioning was that of Censor... my
work was divided between dealing with new Citizens and trying to get the
government back online.
You know, thinking back, that would have been a GOOD time to quit Nova Roma
altogether on the spot. Well, 20/20 hindsight! ;)
Finally, Cincinnatus was able to force through the ridiculous reprimand for
Sulla, and then started to propose new business. The Senate tentatively
started to meet again. Cincinnatus announced to Decius Iunius and myself
that he had a plan for the tribes and Centuries. This was in May I believe.
Then, when he announced his idea... it was unworkable. As far as I could tell
he basically wanted to continually balance tribes numerically with Plebeian
and Patrician Gentes. Now, what that meant was this... the two Censors would
now be charged with continually monitoring the individual Gentes within the
tribes. If one Patrician or Plebeian Gens got enough members *within it* to
unbalance the people within another Gens, folks would have to be taken from a
different tribe and added in, or disbursed to another tribe. Or Gens,
depending!
I explained to Cincinnatus that NOBODY could maintain such a system. The
Censors would basically to have to check the entire tribal system every time
a new Citizen joined... what a mess. In exasperation I took the job back, and
asked the Senate to please give Decius Iunius and I some assistance. I also
asked for assistance from folks in personal Emails.
And, that's when the flood started. Cincinnatus was still trying to push his
idea. Added to that was Callidius' huge and complex presentation, (even
worse!) and input from something like a dozen other Citizens, including
Graecus and Sulla and Germanicus. The agitation was getting extreme.
Callidius refused to acknowledge that any plan but his existed... and kept
shouting on the list, inciting others to shout for his plan, holding
symposiums on his plan in the chatroom, etc. This all started a flurry of
communication, with us Censors trying to answer questions, look over
suggestions, try and deal with the people presenting complete plans, etc.
Naturally, while we tried to make sense out of all the furor going on, yet
another Crisis hit. Patricia was unable to carry on the website, and resigned
as Webmistress, leaving NR without anyone whatever to keep the site going.
Germanicus volunteered in her wake, and was promised the webmaster position.
The NR site was switched onto a new server, and Germanicus began to make
changes. Then - Gangalius volunteered for the website. Our Consuls felt that
Gangalius would make a better web person, so they stripped Germanicus of the
Webmaster title and handed it over to Gangalius. Yup, war again. OH! And...
because we switched the server for the website, the Citizen application form
was down for some weeks. People couldn't get their forms in... a problem we'd
had with other servers but certainly couldn't deal with now. The Tribes
situation was now punctuated with angry Citizens demanding to know when their
new Gens people would be approved, etc... when we weren't even getting their
applications.
Whew! Anyway. Decius Iunius finally decided that the only way the tribes
could be sorted out would be in a face to face meeting, with a bunch of
people sitting down together to hash out all the details. Roman Days!!! (June
12 & 13) Cincinnatus said he'd bring his worked out schedule, Decius and I
would bring the other plans we'd received from all the other Citizens, (plus
ideas that even WE had had by this point!) and everything would get worked
out.
Well, it very nearly worked. At the last minute Decius Iunius wasn't able to
attend Roman Days. Cincinnatus showed up without his plan at all. I sat down
with everyone, we all hashed over what was going on with the tribes, and I
said I'd just do the things myself when I got back, whether they were done
right or not. A bit of an anticlimax after all the fuss, really!
Now, I didn't get back home until June 21st, since Patricia and I had been
scheduled to continue on for a weeks vacation after Roman Days. It took me
two days to catch up with work and Emails, the usual. However, there was one
final glitch. We'd gotten something like 40 new Citizens in the week I'd been
away! Since people had been screaming so recently about slow processing of
new Citizens, I figured that it'd be safest to clean these new folks out
before assigning the tribes. What would a two or three evening delay be at
this point? I Emailed Cincinnatus about the delay, and Sulla.
We got the new folks processed, and then completed the tribes, pretty much as
promised. There WAS another couple day delay in there - my computer wouldn't
go online so I couldn't get to any of the stored info. But still, the tribes
were done as of June 24th or so.
The evening Decius and I were going to get the info up online, I got the call
from Flavia Claudia about the impeachment. Quite frankly, this was out of
left field! Gross negligence and dereliction of duty??? Something like 85%
of my personal time has gone into Nova Roma for the last four years... at
times I was practically the only person holding the works together between
all the warring religious/personal and social factions. And now this.
Still, although the Committee went out of it's way not to leave me one tiny
shred of self respect, that is NOT why I consulted with the Senate for
Interregnum. And, please do note that while the Board of Directors was also
consulted for legal matters, it was the SENATE that did this thing. In accord
were myself, Decius Iunius, Germanicus, Flavia Claudia, and Metellus. The
only Senator voting against Interregnum, oh, and for prosecution, was
Cincinnatus.
Why the Interregnum? First of all, the government of Nova Roma had been
tottering between being dysfunctional and dissolved for some months. Now,
with a fight brewing between the Magistrates and the Senate, the Magistrates
against the Censors, and the two Consuls against each other... we were in a
bad way. It seemed that the only way to clear the problems was to do
something completely radical. Proper channels have not worked within Nova
Roma from Day One... and they weren't going to work now.
Secondly, this Committee thing was not only illegal, it was insane. Most of
the people involved knew EXACTLY what was going on with the tribes, almost to
the very minute. I'd sat down and had a long personal talk with Marcus
Audens, (who helped to draw up the charges) explaining exactly what had
happened with the tribes, when they would be done, HOW they would be done,
etc. [LATER NOTE: Marcus Audens and I later hashed all this out. Turns out
that he'd only agreed to an open letter about the tribes, and was not going
to support the Impeachment.]
Same with Sulla, who talked with Q. Fabius all the time. With Cincinnatus it
was even worse... he was *involved* with the work of creating the tribes! He
and Decius and I were now working on the project in tandem... he'd help us
work on the tribes, and then go to the Comittee to help work on our
Impeachment. I hope that strikes you as a little odd. Gangalius also knew,
since he was going to be putting the tribes up on the website, as Germanicus
has now done.
I could go on with plenty more reasons... but quite frankly I'm tired. If you
need more I'm sure you'll ask plenty of questions.
Scaevola:
> I am open to being persuaded that the course of recent events was not
primarily about the protection of your personal Dignitas. If it was, there
is of course nothing more to say.
Cassius:
In many ways, my Dignitas WAS an issue, although it wasn't the cause for the
decision for Interregnum to clean up Nova Roma's act by fixing the
Constitution, ending some of the factionalism, etc.
For over the past four years, (three years before the official founding, and
the two years since) I've been throwing everything I have into Nova Roma.
During that time I'll be willing to swear before the gods that 80% of my
personal free time has gone into building this Micronation. I go to work, I
go home, and work for Nova Roma. That's pretty much it except to take
Patricia out on the weekends occasionally. Gross negligence and dereliction
of duty??
Had I not been attacked so bitterly and personally, I'd have done what I've
been doing for two years now and worked to solve things between all
concerned. I'd have had a long talk with Cincinnatus, then tried to talk with
everyone else in turn, explain things; hell - I'd have been happy to Email
people files of the Tribe information as "proof" in the interim before the
info could be posted to the website. Not now. Not when everybody I've been
working for had gotten together to stab me in the back.
The Interregnum stopped ALL the games going on. Hopefully Germanicus will be
able to sort things out better than everyone else could, all working at cross
purposes. I really don't have much more to say than that. Personally at the
moment I want nothing to do with NR, although I'll stop short of quitting
officially for the time being. I'm just disgusted with everyone... far more
than they ever could be with me because I didn't produce enough of the "right
kind" of volunteer work to satisfy them.
Scaevola:
>My previous email indicated that I would make no use elsewhere of anything
you said to me in an email. This remains true after this go-away message.
Cassius:
I did NOT in fact tell you to go away. I simply was saying that I really
didn't want to waste a lot of my time explaining myself to somebody who would
only disagree with me at the end anyway. Well, here 'tis. Took me two hours
to type this, and when I get your answer back, it'll assuredly be a message
telling me how and where I was doing wrong with each step.
Vale,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Tyr, Mars, etc. (Was: Fine, let's talk about this then!) |
| From: |
Cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:14:59 EDT |
|
Salvete,
As an addendum, I'm posting the second letter on the subject of the
Interregnum, et al, which I sent to Scaevola Magister. Again, Scaevola, my
most humble apologies for publishing personal correspondence. I just couldn't
bear to re-type all this over again:
Subj: Re: NR Crisis
Date: 7/7/99 10:40:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Cassius622
To: <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=174176211056207031025158175026172165098048139046" >MikeMa--------r@--------</a>
In a message dated 7/6/1999 3:40:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=174176211056207031025158175026172165098048139046" >MikeMa--------r@--------</a> writes:
Scaevola:
>You have clearly been in an extremely difficult situation in the last
months, and I can see how the situation deteriorated. I still don't agree
with the decision to suspend the Constitution etc., but I can see how you
may have felt you had no alternative.
>>
Cassius:
I still feel that there was little alternative... and hopefully Germanicus'
work as Dictator is bearing that out. More is being achieved each day now
than has been in any MONTH of the last year. Because of a multitude of small
problems the government of Nova Roma had basically ceased to function. Now,
with one Consul trying to impeach the other, I could see no chance whatever
that the legal and Constitutional processes that didn't work before would
ever work again without great changes. Someone just had to go in and do some
corrective maintenance... and that's something that can't be done through
endless debate and factionalizing.
With any luck, at the end of this Nova Roma will have a Constitution that
works, formal channels of communication for complaints, and a way to bring
timely assistance (rather than criminal charges!) to Magistrates and others
who become overburdened in the course of their duties, among other things.
Yes, we had the Tribes done. Yes, we could have avoided both the Impeachments
and the Interregnum. However, even though people would have had their big
primary gripe of the moment settled, that wouldn't have fixed ANY of the real
problems. The next big outcry would have been; "Now that we have tribes, why
isn't there anything to vote on? How come the Senate isn't doing it's job?"
After that would have followed; "Why aren't laws being introduced?", "Why
isn't anybody doing anything about the issues the People care about?" etc.
etc. Tribes and Comitia are worthless if the rest of the government is
dysfunctional.
And finally, if it makes you or anyone else feel better, I've been hit far
worse by all of this than the Impeachment could ever have done to me
otherwise. Had I chose to fight in Constitutional channels I'd have won...
the Senate would *not* have voted with Cincinnatus. I'd have in fact been the
victim and not the aggressor, and most likely everyone in the Committee would
have had a hard time of it. Think people were upset about the Tribes? It
would have been a sight to see their reaction to the personal persecution of
the one Magistrate who had up to that point managed to stay friends with
*everyone* in Nova Roma!
Instead, I'm now Satan. Most of the people I cared about in Nova Roma have
quit in disgust, this situation had caused untold problems with my personal
relationship, and if I can stomach to stay around at all... it'll be to work
hand in hand with the very people who thought Nova Roma would be a much
better place without me in it.
Vale,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
|
| Subject: |
Re:on parallels of Mars & Tyr |
| From: |
Razenna razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:15:21 -0700 |
|
Martianus is an avid student of Mars in many forms and will have more that can be said on
this, but...
The most definite parallel is that people _do_ draw one. Even if there were not real one,
this would construct one. The Norse deities do not, in my humble opinion, correspond
neatly to the Mediterranean deities. Tyr is a "war god" of sorts, but Thor is more
correctly a god of war and connected with dynamic power, a personification of strength.
Tyr can be personified as a planner and a complement of the All-Father (Odhin). Tyr is
rational thought, the ability to reason and sound judgment. He is the god who put his
hand into the mouth of the Wolf [sorry I forget his name] as token of a pledge that the
wolf would not be betrayed. It was a ploy, and a willing sacrifice, so that the wolf
could be bound. Tyr lost his hand. He is called the One-Handed and the Leavings of the
Wolf. In war, as in life, one must at times be crafty, and one must be willing to pay the
price as well as gain the objective.
The largest connection between Tyr and Mars might well be "Tuesday". The name "Tiw" is
another form of "Tyr" and the Latin form of that day is Mars's Day. These days of the
week parallels do not always hold up in my opinion. Thursday is named for Thor, and the
Latin day is for Mercury. I find it really difficult to think of Thor as being like
Mercurius. Friday is Veneridi in Italian, Venus's day. I've seen Fri-day said to be from
both Frigga and Free. Frigga might actually be compared more to Iuno than Venus. The
German form of the day's name is 'Freitag" which implies that it is named after Freya, who
is much more like Venus [nudge, nudge, wink wink].
Enough on this more pleasant topic.
C. Aelius Ericius.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: Fine, let's talk about this then! Was: Tyr |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:32:22 -0700 |
|
>
<SNIP>
EXCUSE ME! Cassius please read the archives...Germanicus said we couldnt hold
elections the first year becuase of lack of Comitia...I foundt he LOOPHOLE to
protect the Senate and to have the Elections. You agreed to it...but wouldnt
respond publically. As did Lucius and Palladius. Hence Elections were held.
PLEASE do not say I was trying to invaldiate the Constitution. I never NEVER
promoted that. That was NEVER an objective of the Faction.
> Oh, and I was responsible for the
> elections too, etc., etc. Not to mention other crises like Sulla trying to
> get the Constitution declared invalid because we didn't have a Supremacy
> Clause!
>
<SNIP> ABOVE!
Now what is this....Geez Cassius I hope you dont believe what you are actually
saying about me...ABOUT ME! Cassius for 2 weeks prior to the Interregum (sp.)
you and I communicated Privately regarding the Comitia and the Faction. You and
I had an understanding. What motive woudl I possible have to destroy or hinder
Nova Roma when I KNEW beucase you told me that you and Palladius were going to
impliment the COmitia and implment it based on Graecus's and my model? Hell the
last e-mail I sent to you was that I couldnt find the names of the
Tribes....Remember you asked me to find them..beucase I thought I had them. And
I got a response from you saying it was no problem, Palladius had them. Come on
Cassius....Think.....I had NO computer access but at work. No phone contact
because no phone..and I had Nicola here....Anyone of the people who you cited as
part of the Impeachment Committee can VERIFY that I had NO role.....Hell Lucius
Equitius and I never communicated, everyone knew of the bad blood between us. It
doesnt make sense...Cassius.
>
> Same with Sulla, who talked with Q. Fabius all the time. With Cincinnatus it
> was even worse... he was *involved* with the work of creating the tribes! He
> and Decius and I were now working on the project in tandem... he'd help us
> work on the tribes, and then go to the Comittee to help work on our
> Impeachment. I hope that strikes you as a little odd. Gangalius also knew,
> since he was going to be putting the tribes up on the website, as Germanicus
> has now done.
>
L. Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus
|
| Subject: |
For what it's worth |
| From: |
AC1917@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:37:43 EDT |
|
Salvete omnes!
As a new citizen not really familiar with the issues and
personalities that led to the recent crisis, I have not felt it my place to
comment one way or the other. Now that the crisis seems to be over, there
are a couple of things I would like to say. First of all, I think Germanicus
has done an exemplary job in drafting and enacting the new constitution, in
making the new magisterial appointments, in setting up the tribes; and all
this done in an efficient and timely manner. Perhaps a corona civica is in
order here.
Secondly, since everyone seems to be in a legalistic frame of mind
these days . . . For what it's worth, I think all parties to the conflict,
and indeed, all citizens should in future remember an old Roman adage: Salus
res publicae, lex suprema.
Valete,
Camillus Severus Antoninus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Fine, let's talk about this then! Was: Tyr |
| From: |
Cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:48:05 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/17/99 3:31:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
> EXCUSE ME! Cassius please read the archives...Germanicus said we couldnt
hold
elections the first year becuase of lack of Comitia...I foundt he LOOPHOLE to
protect the Senate and to have the Elections. You agreed to it...but wouldnt
respond publically. As did Lucius and Palladius. Hence Elections were held.
PLEASE do not say I was trying to invaldiate the Constitution. I never NEVER
promoted that. That was NEVER an objective of the Faction.
Whoops! That's the problem with posting an old letter instead of carefully
crafting a speech. I did NOT intend to imply that Sulla was trying to cause
trouble with the Constitution supremacy clause! This was instead an attempt
to just get the elections done in their proper time. My apologies, Sulla!!!
What I was in fact trying to point out the many uproars and fierce debates
that were going on then.
> Oh, and I was responsible for the
> elections too, etc., etc. Not to mention other crises like Sulla trying to
> get the Constitution declared invalid because we didn't have a Supremacy
> Clause!
>
<SNIP> ABOVE!
> Now what is this....Geez Cassius I hope you dont believe what you are
actually
saying about me...ABOUT ME! Cassius for 2 weeks prior to the Interregum
(sp.)
you and I communicated Privately regarding the Comitia and the Faction. You
and
I had an understanding. What motive woudl I possible have to destroy or
hinder
Nova Roma when I KNEW beucase you told me that you and Palladius were going
to
impliment the COmitia and implment it based on Graecus's and my model? Hell
the
last e-mail I sent to you was that I couldnt find the names of the
Tribes....Remember you asked me to find them..beucase I thought I had them.
And
I got a response from you saying it was no problem, Palladius had them.
Come on
Cassius....Think.....I had NO computer access but at work. No phone contact
because no phone..and I had Nicola here....Anyone of the people who you
cited as
part of the Impeachment Committee can VERIFY that I had NO role.....Hell
Lucius
Equitius and I never communicated, everyone knew of the bad blood between
us. It
doesnt make sense...Cassius.
Cassius:
Again, my apologies, Lucius Cornelius! You were indeed simply trying to make
the elections work out. The fact that the Supremacy Clause thing sparked a
lot of different feelings and arguments was more a problem with the whole
election fervor than anything else!
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Age of pater/maters |
| From: |
Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:32:10 -0400 |
|
Salvete,
I think the proposal for a minimum age to be pater/materfamilias is
un-roman. If I was an ancient roman citizen and my male ancestors were all
dead by the time I was one year old I would still be paterfamilias, though
subject to tutela until I became adult so not yet sui juris. OK, we don't
make other members of the gens in patria potestas/ alteri juris; but for
the same reason we don't need to place age restrictions on pater/mater.
Vale,
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
|
| Subject: |
Re: Congratulations Audens! |
| From: |
Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:32:12 -0400 |
|
Salvete,
I add my congratulations to Audens!
Valete,
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
|
| Subject: |
Was: Tyr. Still is: Tyr. |
| From: |
Gail and Thomas Gangale gangale@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:33:48 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete, Quirites.
While some of Cassius's long harrangue may well be true, all of it is
certainly irrelevant. It is nothing other than a diversion from the true
matter at hand, the matter of justice for Cincinnatus. A noble Roman has
been condemned without trial and expelled without due process.
Shortly after I posted my message this morning, I took my bike for a long
ride. I laid the bike down, and I sprained both of my hands. The details
of the fifteen-mile return home is a personal journey with which I need not
bore you. But I did cast the Rune of Tyr, and I believe that I have my
answer from the Gods of the North. They have accepted my offer. Now all of
Nova Roma awaits the answer of Germanicus: whether he will honor the justice
of the Gods he worships.
As for the rest, it is my opinion that Cincinnatus must be fully restored!
Valete,
Marcus Martianus Gangalius
Aedilis Curule et Vebsitarius Maximus
-------------
Tom and Gail Gangale
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm" target="_top" >http://www.jps.net/gangale/homepage.htm</a>
Mars Society California
The Martian Time Web Site
The Martian Ministry of Culture
Nova Roma
World GenWeb Calabria
Bunny Hill (and Catsville Too)
The National Primary System
The Art of Darius
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: Fine, let's talk about this then! Was: Tyr |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:19:26 EDT |
|
Salve Marcus Cassius,
Thank you for your reply addressing this issue with more details of how
it came about. Many of us out here have had little information for some
time.
As to the list of tribulations, problems, and obstacles you've
experienced over the past year, and the effort you've put into Nova Roma,
certainly nobody can much fault you. If I may quote a portion of my
previous post:
>Many of their illegal activities, such as failure to constitute the
>Comitiae, and holding illegal elections, or closing down the nation (the
>so-called "Interregnum"), might be excused as unintentional failings or
>as honest attempts to deal with awkward situations arising from the
>incomplete status of the structure of NR's government.
OK, I admit, it has a hostile tone, but the point is that much of what
has transpired is understandable, excuseable, justifiable. Much of what
Germanicus has done as Dictator appears to be very appropriate and
ultimately to the benefit of Nova Roma (too bad he didn't take care of
much of this back when he was Consul and Censor, before we got to needing
a Dictator, but as they say, nobody's perfect).
The one action that has been taken for which I can find no excuse, and no
reason except personal feelings, is the disenfranchisement of
Cincinnatus. I ascribed this action to "The Powers That Be" (hereafter to
be referred to as "TPTB" if at all) because I don't know if this came
from the Senate, from the BoD, from some smaller cabal, or from
Germanicus alone. But from whomever it came, I, and apparently many other
civies on both "sides" of this conflict, find this action unacceptable.
It stains the fabric of the Republic.
Let that stain be removed, and perhaps we will be able to come together
again here.
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust.
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
|
| Subject: |
Age Issue |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:54:34 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes.
As everyone has pointed out Pro and Con. The issue of being a
Pater/MaterFamilias is an important probably the most important roles a
Roman Citizen has. The Family is of Paramount importance, hence the
family, its role and its function must be protected as much as it can be
from potential abuse. As the Constitution states...a 15 year old with
parental consent can join NR. Hence at this point a 15 year old can
become a Pater/Materfamilias. My question is, if he/she needs PARENTAL
consent to join how can he/she become a Pater/Mater. It sounds like a
play on Words. I believe someone who is 18, can be a Pater/Mater. But,
anyone who NEEDS Parental Consent shouldnt have the ability to become
Pater/Materfamilias. In my honest opinion I feel that it errods the
dignitas of every other Pater/Materfamilias. Beyond a civie being 18,
that is something else entirely. But if they require, as per the
Constitution to obtain parental consent. How can they possible head a
family and successful meet all the responsibilities that that position
requires.
Humbly submitted.
L. Cornelius Sulla
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
Praetor Urbanus et Senator
|
| Subject: |
Re: Was: Tyr. Still is: Tyr. |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:22:22 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/17/99 5:34:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
writes:
<< But I did cast the Rune of Tyr, and I believe that I have my answer from
the Gods of the North.>>
Good for you.
<<They have accepted my offer.>>
So you believe.
<<Now all of Nova Roma awaits the answer of Germanicus: whether he will honor
the justice of the Gods he worships. >>
Oh my dear Gangalius..the Gods and Goddesses of the North have much more to
do with this then you could possibly imagine.
Priscilla Vedia Serena
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: Fine, let's talk about this then! Was: Tyr |
| From: |
JusticeCMO@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:24:50 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/17/99 6:20:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:
<< Let that stain be removed, and perhaps we will be able to come together
again here. >>
This smacks too much of "do what I want or I'll continue to create division
and discord in this nation REGARDLESS of the multitude of improvements made
by Germanicus" for my taste.
Priscilla Vedia Serena
|
| Subject: |
Re: Tyr |
| From: |
JusticeCMO@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:28:20 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/17/99 12:37:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:
<< As long as Cincinnatus is not fully restored, none of these new steps and
reforms means anything, and Nova Roma is nothing but a private farce
masquarading as a lawful micronation. >>
I was unaware that this entire nation revolved around this issue.
Heavens, imagine my relief now that I can ignore the amount of
accomplishments seen in the recent weeks.....work that a large number of
individuals had been unable to manage in many months.....
I can happily sit back and realize that the entire premise of this nation is
"Cinncinatus".
Oh wait..I forgot....that is your fantasy, not mine.
Priscilla Vedia Serena
|
| Subject: |
Re: Mars Pater [was Tyr] |
| From: |
JusticeCMO@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:35:02 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/17/99 2:20:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< I have seen fearsome amounts of double talk, and double think, since
we got clobbered by that palace coup. >>
Psssst....if you look very carefully you will also see copious amounts of
real honest-to-gods WORK having been accomplished.
But hey....why spoil all the division and hate-mongering with plain old
results.
Priscilla Vedia Serena
|
| Subject: |
in rebus constitutionis |
| From: |
David Meadows dmeadows@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 23:47:58 -0400 |
|
Salvete,
While I await confirmation of my citizenship (how long do such things take?
I applied a few days prior to escaping to the more amenable climes of a
northern lacus and expected approval by the time I had returned), I've been
reading through quite a bit of NovaRoma correspondence and have been
particularly interested in the Constitutional matter. If it does not seem
too brazen from an apparent non-citizen (although I might add that the
Romans themselves are supposed to have consulted other states/non-citizens
when they were formulating the duodecim tabulae ... personally I don't buy
into that story)
In regards to the age of a pater/materfamilias, it seems to me that the
best solution to a possibly rancourous debate would be to look to Rome for
inspiration. The ancient Romans recognized the 'maturity' aspect of being
sui iuris and/or a paterfamilias, especially in matters relating to
finances. To that end, they had the institutions of tutores and curatores.
A tutor would regularly be appointed (usually by a paterfamilias in his
will, but the urban praetor could also be approached) who would oversee the
financial affairs of people under the age of eighteen. Often, after that, a
curator might be appointed to lend confidence to financial transactions
since someone who was under the age of 25 could legally revoke any
financial transaction which had not turned out well for them.
That said, it seems to me an obvious solution that for folks who are under
18 that they should approach the praetor and ask for a tutor or curator to
be appointed for them (personally, I think the term 'curator' would work
best). Acting as a curator should be considered a munus (an expected
voluntary activity) for longstanding and well-respected citizens of Nova
Roma. No one should have to be curator for more than three people (we don't
want to overburden anyone).
The duties of curator should essentially involve advising those in their
cura about the appropriateness of posts (when necessary -- it probably will
never be necessary, but a gentle admonition offlist would probably be a
good thing for all concerned) and providing advice in regards to career
advancement and the like. Indeed, it would be appropriate for the curator
to formally announce when such careers are being embarked upon.
I'd suggest that someone should be under the 'wing' of a curator until such
time as they complete their eighteenth year (at which time there should be
a formal announcement of same, of course).
If I don't seem to have overstepped my bounds on this one, I shall have
more comments on the constitutional arrangements over the next few days;
as mentioned above, I have just returned from the lacus and am currently
wading through over 1000 emails (including NovaRoma digests!).
Valete,
Marcus Papirius Justus
Jurisconsultus
]|[ David Meadows ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[ Rogue Classicist ]|[
|
| Subject: |
Explanation |
| From: |
JusticeCMO@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:45:52 EDT |
|
Salve,
I felt it appropriate to send a brief note of explanation regarding my
previous posts. Such sarcasm, and indeed posting at all, is rare for me.
However, my limit was reached.
As Germanicus' wife, some will dismiss my thoughts as invalid, however I
would hope that even they will take a moment to hear me out. I have watched
my husband work tirelessly for the benefit of Nova Roma and to see those that
would dismiss that devotion for a personal cause incites the Celtic blood in
me. ::smile::
Germanicus, whatever your opinion of him personally, has done more for Nova
Roma in recent weeks than had been accomplished in months. He did not seek
out the position of dictator, he in fact only took it up as a sign of
devotion and his refusal to watch Nova Roma die.
For those who insist on believing that his motivations are ego-based and a
vendetta of some sorts against Cinncinnatus, I would suggest you look again
at the tasks he has undertaken in his term as dictator. In truth, if he were
truly the petty tyrant some here would have you believe, would he not
"silence" the very voices that decry him? Come now.....he hasn't and it is
quite frankly not in his nature to do so at all.
I could understand some wishing to see the Cinncinnatus issue resolved to
their liking, but to dismiss, degrade and defame Germanicus and the work he
has put into this nation is simply wrong. One would hope you could separate
the issues and at the very least acknowledge the great amount of good that
has come from his dictatorship. Perhaps you assume he relishes the "power",
but as the one who stands by him and supports him through this ordeal, I can
tell you that you are in grievous error to think such things.
I will state, in retrospect, that the sarcasm with which I posted earlier was
not conducive to peace here, and for that I do apologize. However, I would
also hope you would at the very least empathize with a woman who has seen her
beloved husband sweat, struggle and strive to place this nation back on it's
course. Believe as you will, but I can tell you that nothing, NOTHING, is
higher in Germanicus' mind than the welfare and growth of this nation. If
you are in doubt of that, step away from the tunnel-vision and look to the
work he has done. The results should speak for themselves.
For the record, I speak my own mind on issues and if any are tempted to
assume my husband had any part in this or any prior e-mails, I invite you to
contact me privately. You will soon see that I am not the "type" that is
used as mouthpiece for anyone. ::grin::
Priscilla Vedia Serena
|
| Subject: |
Re: Mars Pater [was Tyr] |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@--------) |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:56:31 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, Priscilla, Vedia Serena;
The affair of Cinncinnatus is not central to this micro-nation but the
idea of removal from office without accusation and held from his elected
office without reason certainly is, and the willingness to allow those
violations of fairness and justice is somewhat shortsighted. I dare say
that if something similar had happened to you, someone who has spoken
out for you from the large mass of those who do not care enough to do
so, would be quite welcome.
I suppose at this late date, because the word impeachment has been used
so much, that it will be impossible to separate that word from the
facts. I have sworn (as have others) that there was no impeachment
intent, only the intent to finish a task that had not been completed.
Yes at the time I agreed to write the cover letter for A Letter Of
Inquiry, but II supposed (and still do) that Cinncinnatus had agreed
with me, that no impeachment would be attempted. When I saw the
information sent to me I then immediately began to write Cinncinnatus
that I would not support such, as he already knew my feelings from a
previos phone call. Unfortunately the lights went out about that time
I have listened carefully to the most kind explanations of Cassius and
Palladius, and they to mine. I flatter myself that we are at least back
on a speaking basis if not more. My point is that I made a mistake as
my agreemen with Cassius did not mean the same to me as it did to him
and that is my fault, but hardly I think the basis to take away my
elected office and tarnish my honor.
I join the most of you in praising the amount of work accomplished by
Dctator Germanicus. It is an impressive list indeed, however, I would
remind you all that had Cinncinnatus been a Dictator rather than a
Consul havng to deal with a reluctant Senate, he too could have dealt
with these problems, and done so very well. I do not take anything from
Dictator Germanicus, but I do believe that we should level the playing
field somewhat.
When the Dictator lays down his office then will be the time to bring
the case of Cinncinnatus to the fore, since the Dictator Germanicus
seems resolved not to move further upon it, and at that time, as has
been promised by all Magistrates is the time to look deeply into this
unwholesome situation. Let the Dictator do his work, as that seems to
be what the nation desires. Let the instruments of justice do their
work, when released from the bond of agreement placed upon us by the
selection of a Dictator.
Lastly and in parting, I would say this, my dear, that those upon whom
you practice sarcasm and bitter wit, you should look to th efuture if
that person is not someone who may be a fellow worker or aid you in some
way. The wit and sarcasm are transitory, but the effects last a
lifetime. I am sure this will earn me your displeasure, but I have a
feel now for the displeasure of others who know little whereof they
speak, and a very strong feel for the displeasure of those who know what
is happening. As uncomfortable as either situation can be, I, without a
doubt, perfer the latter over the former
Vale, Roman Citizen;
Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Devotion vs, Justice |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@--------) |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 23:08:44 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve Pricilla Vedia Serena;
Your devotion to your husband is qute admirable. I too have a wife that
is devoted to me and I consider myself very fortunate, however, I do not
think that affects the present situation. Dictator Germanicus has done
a great deal it is true. Far more than I could have done certainly, but
with the "required" obedience of the NR citizens. That is far easier to
do than to accomplish one/fourth of that list with a Senate that is able
to disagree and to argue, and to counter-propose. I do not belittle
Dictator Germanicus' efforts on the part of NR. I believe both of you
when you say that Dictator Germanicus did not actively seek his present
appointment. But that is not the point at all.
The real point is simply this that a duly elected magistrate
(Cinncnnatus) has been removed from his position for no apparent reason.
No charges, no accusations, no proof, and even those who "were on the
other side" are working to have him reinstated wholly or in part.
The reason, to try in his own way to get a job done that the citizens
were increasingly anxious about. I am not a political person, and I do
not have a political background and I do not think like a politician, so
all I can do when I see something like this is to state my feelings:
--If there is a complaint against Cinncinnatus, state the complaint, and
prove it;
--If there is not a complaint, restore him to his rightfully elected
position.
This is the same treatment that you expect of the laws of the United
States, and I would suppose in any free country in the world. not to
mention in a micro-nation whose culture seeks to revive the Noble Roman
Attributes (one of which I believe deals with Honesty, and another
Justice) , and that my dear, is the point, the whole point, and nothing
but the point..
It has been pointed out that I am a rabid dog on this subject, but I
tell you that I am as much a coward as the next man. I do not put my
fist in the mouth of the wolf for fear he will take it off. I do not
pledge my position against the restoration of Cinncinnatus, because I
have none to give (my fault again) I do not demand action from Dictator
Germanicus , I ask his kind consideration. I do not forget my friends I
support them, and were the case reversed, as I have said before I would
defend Dictator Germanicus as I have Cinncinnatus. No, I am not a rabid
dog, or a great magistrate, or leftovers from The Wolf's Supper. I am
but a very small man, asking a very great man to please consider my
request yet again. That is all I ask for, and all I will be content
with. Dictator Germanicus has been most generous to me of late and I
appreciate it, but the above is a wound in NR that will never stop
bleeding until the arrow point is plucked out and a dressing is applied.
Vale, Roman Matron;
Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: Was: Tyr. Still is: Tyr. |
| From: |
Razenna razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:00:51 -0700 |
|
Serena wrote:
> Oh my dear Gangalius..the Gods and Goddesses of the North have much more to
> do with this then you could possibly imagine.
Maybe that is one of the problems.
It is difficult to mix ingredients from two different recipes and get something palatable.
C. Aelius Ericius
Pontifex
|
| Subject: |
Prayers |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 17 Jul 1999 23:59:37 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes...
I just recived notification from my sister that mother has just been
admitted to the Hospital in the Intensive Care unit beucase of
complications from Diabetes......Please pray for my mother's health..I
am going to Riverside on Monday to be with my grandmother and to see if
they will let visitors into her Hospital Room.
L. Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus et Senator
|
