Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	"Nathan Hicks" moman@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:28:21 -0400

-----Original Message-----
From: RCW <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Sunday, July 18, 1999 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Fwd: Re: GRRRR


>From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
>I disagree...if it was sent to an individual, then it isnt public....or
else
>it would have gone to the list? would it not? OR at least the Religio
list?


I continue to disagree with your original argument that
a communication between a Pontifex and an applicant,
stating the Pontifex's personal feelings, is either private
or confidential. The communication, being outside the
function of his office, but regarding his actions within
the office, is a statement unprotected by the 'privileged'
status of official communications and is open to public
discussion; and since it communicates official decisions
it can't be considered a 'private' communication. Therefore,
it is not protected by that unspoken rule of etiquette
that is honored in private matters.


Rusticus

Subject:	Posted in the Forum
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:27:12 EDT

SALVETE OHMES!

Thank you all for your wonderful compositions glorifying the archer, and
indirectly Nova Roma. As long as Nova Roma has patrons as you, she will
always have some bright jewels in her crown of achievements. Now to the
contest.

The Juri must be commended. They included their own thoughts as why they
preferred one piece over an other. This allowed me as final arbitrator to
narrow down the choices. You all are thanked for a job well done.
In the old days, the winner would receive a prize, money, and a chance to
recite, (or if he wished) an orator to recite the piece for him.
We have no money to give, but if Falvius Vedius would like to add a point or
two to the winners' centuries, for service done to New Rome, I'm sure that
would be just as good.
The winning pieces will be displayed on the Main page, so the world may look
at Nova Roma literary genius.
Now on to the winners.
Poetry
Ranking first with his poem "Veritas Apollonis" (Apollo's truth) is Author,
Appius Claudius Lucentius Nigellus
Congratulations Appius Claudius!
Ranking second by 1 point less is the poem by our resident Gaul, "Sowing The
Seed" Author, Ryan of clann Walsh.
Congratulations Ryan of the Walsh!
Ranking third by 1 point less is our own Tribune of the Plebs' "Musae" (Muse)
Author, Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Well done Antonius Gryllus!

In the Prose contest, we have a former citizen who we miss very much, but she
has graced us once again with her talent. The winner with her "Three
devotionals"
is Pythia! Great accomplishment Pythia!

There was no entries for the Drama (Play) contest. Maybe next year.
Nova Romans! A cheer for the victors!
VELETE!
Q. FABIUS MAXIMUS
CURULE AEDILE

Subject:	Posted in the forum Poetry Winner
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:29:29 EDT

Title: Veritas Apollonis (Apollo's truth)
Author: Appius Claudius Lucentius Nigellus

O lux Veritatis, cur saepe timide
in umbras audaciorium
mendacioriumque cessistine?

O lux Apollonis, constans et aeterna
liberaliter Veritatem
obstare impietati adiuva!
_____________________________

Oh light of Truth, why so often
have you withdrawn timidly to the shadows
of the more daring and more deceitful?

Oh light of Apollo, constant and eternal,
kindly help Truth
to stand against ungodliness.

Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:30:45 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Senator Sulla;

Sir, respectfully, I believe that I see Rusticus' point. Once a
decision is made in regard to an application, then that decision must
become public, else it is hidden away.

I do not question the Pontiff's action in turning down an applicant, but
I do wish to know that he has done so and his reasons. In this case I
had some small part in directing the candidate to the Pontiff, and felt
that she was suitable at least for consideration.

The fact that she is not, according to the Pontiff, is a decision which
should be able to stand the light of day and the light of discussion.
The reasoning of the Pontiff, and the apparent anguish of the candidate
aside for a moment, this decision and others like it must be public
knowledge otherwise, justice to the citizens of NR may be seriously
eroded, in any areas where a candidate has no other route of appeal.

I hope that I have made my self clear in this post. I reiterate that I
am not of the Religio, but my post really is about fair play and opening
decisions regarding approval or disapproval to public view particularly
in a case where the applicant has appealed to the Citizenship for a
jugement simply because she saw no other avenue open to her.

I agree with you on principle that letters written in private should
have the agreement of all parties before re-issuing them to the list.
In my opinion the Pontiff's decision should have been posted at least to
the Religio List, and the applicant should have paraphrased the
Pontiff's decision when asking for Citizen response. However, this is a
young lady eager to be of use and obviously disappointed, and she is
dealing with a gentleman of considerable experience and background, who
has apparent strong reasons for his call. Let those interested view
that call for justice if for no other reason.

Vale, Senator Sulla;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Posted in the Forum Winner: Prose Contest
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:37:47 EDT

In a message dated 7/12/1999 8:40:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200176234108158116015132190036129" >kingan@--------</a> writes:

<< o the Glory of sweet Apollo:


Three devotionals

by Pythia
*******************
APOLLO



"The Lord whose is the oracle at Delphi neither utters nor hides his
meaning, but shows it by a sign."
- Heraclitus

The ancients had many forms of divination. They would interpret the
flights of birds, and patterns in the growth of trees. They found
meaning in dreams, and even today in Greece, dream interpretation is
very popular.

Any form of divination, however, is dependent on the one gift only
Apollo bestows. That is Intuition. Intuition is the ability to see what
others may miss in a situation. A gesture, a particular comment, or the
ability to see a pattern where others do not , these form part of the
mysterious gift called Intuition. It is form of deep wisdom that cannot be
explained, but it is available to all of us in varying degrees. Heraclitus
states that Apollo does not hide his meaning. He gives it to us in a way
that demands we exercise
our deeper wisdom, and by doing so we exercise our mental muscles.

We can be thankful that Apollo does not desire blind ignorant obedience,
but shares His nature with us. Take some time today to meditate on your
inner, unspoken wisdom.

************************
ZEUS

"Yet even so, thou knowest to make the crooked straight.
Prune all excess, give order to the orderless,
For unto thee the unloved still is lovely-
And thus in one all things are harmonized"
- Cleanthes of Assos, Hymn To Zeus

The concept of the "fatherhood" of God is one most of us are familiar
with from the dominant religions in our society. This has caused many to
discount this aspect of the Devine as oppressive and overly male
centered.

It need not be seen this way, however. We know, from writings that have
come down to us from the ancient Greeks, that Zeus was regarded as a
good and just protector of the weak. Even a casual reading of Aesop
reveals a caring and fatherly King.

Consider Marpessa, who was loved by both Idas, a mortal, and Apollo.
When the God and the mortal came to blows over her affections, it was
Zeus who separated them and allowed Marpessa to choose her lover. She
chose Idas, believing that Apollo would not be a comfort in her old age.
Zeus' intervention was an act of mercy for Idas as well as Marpessa, for
he would not have survived about with Apollo. Apollo was then forbidden
to take vengeance on the couple.

********************
ATHENA

"Come, then, Athena, with hand upraised over the kiln. Let the pots and
all the dishes turn out well and be well fired: let them fetch good
prices and be sold in plenty in the market, and plenty in the streets.

But if you turn shameless and make false promises, then I call together
the destroyers of kilns, Shatter and Smash and Char and Crash and
Crudebake who can work this craft much mischief. Come all of you and
sack the kiln-yard and the buildings: let the whole kiln be shaken up to
the potter's loud lament."
- Homer

We often think of Athena as a Goddess of War, and indeed, She was
considered the Defender of The City.
In this quote from Homer , we see Her as the defender of livelihood as
well. As the Patroness of the craftsmen it is not surprising that she
is asked to bless the potters, but what is of particular interest is the
promise of prosperity.

Under Athena's gaze the craftsman can expect not only great skill, but
productivity and financial gain. We might have assumed that the artisan
would look to Hermes for those blessings and asked Athena only for
skill. But Athena also demands more than simple acknowledgement, as
Homer points out. Dishonesty will lead to financial ruin.

Our work becomes sanctified when we acknowledge the presence of the
Divine, and make our own offering of integrity.
*****************

Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 02:43:17 -0700

But the problem was that the deicsion wasnt done...Felix was one
Pontiff..there are 4 other Pontiffs who have still to vote! Audens. Hence,
my disagreement with Rusticus.

L. Cornelius Sulla

James Mathews wrote:

> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
>
> Salve, Senator Sulla;
>
> Sir, respectfully, I believe that I see Rusticus' point. Once a
> decision is made in regard to an application, then that decision must
> become public, else it is hidden away.
>
> I do not question the Pontiff's action in turning down an applicant, but
> I do wish to know that he has done so and his reasons. In this case I
> had some small part in directing the candidate to the Pontiff, and felt
> that she was suitable at least for consideration.
>
> The fact that she is not, according to the Pontiff, is a decision which
> should be able to stand the light of day and the light of discussion.
> The reasoning of the Pontiff, and the apparent anguish of the candidate
> aside for a moment, this decision and others like it must be public
> knowledge otherwise, justice to the citizens of NR may be seriously
> eroded, in any areas where a candidate has no other route of appeal.
>
> I hope that I have made my self clear in this post. I reiterate that I
> am not of the Religio, but my post really is about fair play and opening
> decisions regarding approval or disapproval to public view particularly
> in a case where the applicant has appealed to the Citizenship for a
> jugement simply because she saw no other avenue open to her.
>
> I agree with you on principle that letters written in private should
> have the agreement of all parties before re-issuing them to the list.
> In my opinion the Pontiff's decision should have been posted at least to
> the Religio List, and the applicant should have paraphrased the
> Pontiff's decision when asking for Citizen response. However, this is a
> young lady eager to be of use and obviously disappointed, and she is
> dealing with a gentleman of considerable experience and background, who
> has apparent strong reasons for his call. Let those interested view
> that call for justice if for no other reason.
>
> Vale, Senator Sulla;
> Very Respectfully;
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> The planet's eCenter for health & well-being. PlanetRX.
> <a href=" <a href="http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/planetrx1" target="_top" >http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/planetrx1</a> ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Away from Rome
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:44:35 EDT

Salvete!
I will be away from Rome, for the next four days, while away shooting
locations on the coast. So if I don't respond to your letters, it is because
I have no computer access, not because I don't want to.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus Paterfamilias

Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 06:13:56 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Senator Sulla;

Thank you for that clarification. I didn't realize that all Pontiffs
must vote on all applicants. That modifies my comments to some degree.
It is just that we have all been pretty stiff with one another on this
list for some time, and I think that the time, as you have appealed for
in the past, has come for as much openness as possible.

With the Dictator stepping down, a certain rising of the curtain will
occur anyway, with the option of disagreement and questions once again
restored to a basically free people. However, with that freedom, must
also come responsibility in action, deed and word, or we will be right
back in the same boat again!!!.

Thank you again for your most kind comments.

Vale, Senator Sulla;
Very Respectfully;.
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: office of the holy toad
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 06:58:53 -0400 (EDT)

--- w--------am wheeler <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125075047121158135036082190036" >wuffa@--------</a> wrote:
> in part of My post to the Collegium
> M.Cornelius Felix Pontiff sends greeting to all here.
> as i posted the letters from to me and her(the Candidate)
> to the Pontiffix List I will not do so here,
> in them she shows No Auctoritas,Dignitas,any Gravitas about what
> we are talking about,no Pietas,.

BS. Total BS.

> She has called Apollo " 'Pollo-poof' "in them.

Yes, and I explicitly said that it was a term of endearment!

Cassius, I will forward all the email to you. No holds barred. Please keep it
under wraps; I trust that you will.

For further details for the US language impaired, please see the following
URLs:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7969/amber/amberisms.htm" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7969/amber/amberisms.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7969/poof.htm" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7969/poof.htm</a>

I know that the UK and Australia has a different view on the word "poof." Over
here in the US, it doesn't mean much more than a fluffy warm fuzzy.

> she has said I can not be a worshiper on Apollo if I do not
> know her!..

That is NOT what I said.

I said that since you are a devotee of Apollo, you will truly understand me,
and hence I will tell you what I am telling you.

I gave you a LOT of personal info, dear, and your attitude towards it all was a
slap in the face. I didn't get to my path through a Bible; I got it from
personal experience.

> NOTE that i have have many emails with her before ,
> her OFFhand way of talking about the Gods shows No Gravitas
> I asked then told her not to call Apollo "pollo-poof"
> for the GODS Honor I asked this.

I think that I will honor *APOLLO'S* opinion on the matter over yours, DEAR.

Why do I know that He doesn't mind?

Because...
He...
told...
me...
so.

I think that I'll take that to the bank. If you wish to argue with me about
whether or not I'm receiving "true" correspondence with the gods because you
happen to disagree with me over my being affectionate with one, then I would
kindly request that you step down off of your high horse. Religion is a
personal matter.

If I wished to be insulted over my beliefs, I'd have turned myself over to a
rabid Christian fundie, not a Pontiff of Nova Roma!!

> I am not mad at her, but she is very VERY immature I am not the only
> person who can see this.

No, my dear, YOU are the one who is immature.

If you had thought that I was insulting you, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE MERELY ASSUMED
SUCH!

*ALL* of this, ladies and gentlemen, could've been clarified with a little
written clarification. This is so ridiculous and I'm so annoyed that I can
hardly type.

And this person was supposed to be judging my application??

> I will not post all the email here .
> But she talked about " gods that are only hers" IE she made them up.
> THINK about it.

Uh, NO, dear.

I talked about *MY* personal correspondence with Apollo. Not the gods. The
correspondence.

If this man truly has a learning disability, someone step forward now. I
cannot tolerance any more of this nonsense.




-Andrea Gladia Kyrinia





===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar/Andreia *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andreia/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-

Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:18:28 -0400 (EDT)

--- RCW <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> wrot--------r> > From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
> I disagree...if it was sent to an individual, then it isnt public....or else
> it would have gone to the list? would it not? OR at least the Religio list?

I forwarded it to the Religio list, but they didn't want to deal with it, so I
apologized and took it offlist, and requested that anyone from the list who
wanted to discuss it with me to take it to private email.

Aside from BackAlley and ViaTrames, there IS no other place to discuss this!

I am not one who forwards personal correspondence to lists. I receive my slap
on the wrist for doing so and apologize for the lack of taste and possibly
judgment. If it gets me the justice that I deserve, it is worth it.

I want this issue cleared up, NOW, before he insults me any further publically.
I will not have my name dragged in the dirt over a difference in religious
beliefs!!

This is my last public post on the matter. Cassius is reviewing all the emails
I sent, messages quoted, as we speak. I trust in his judgment.



Valete et khairete,


-Andrea Gladia Kyrinia



===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar/Andreia *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andreia/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-

Subject:	Pro Kyrinia
From:	"Nathan Hicks" moman@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:44:25 -0400

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 5:42 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Fwd: Re: GRRRR


>From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
>But the problem was that the deicsion wasnt done...Felix was one
>Pontiff..there are 4 other Pontiffs who have still to vote! Audens. Hence,
>my disagreement with Rusticus.


But, Sulla, that the issue still awaits an official judgement
is a fact central to my argument. I fault myself for the mis-
understanding: I have presumed too much to be evident.
My argument, enlarged by the surrounding facts, follows:

The pending nature of the College's official judgement
warrants that confidentiality be maintained within the
the Pontifical College. A Pontifex would be indefensibly
wrong to share with the applicant the stances of other
members of the College: the duties of the College require
that its members feel at liberty to speak their minds.
So, yes, all such discussion ought to be witheld from
the public. But it is an umbrella whose shade falls only
upon the official functions of the Pontifical College,
such as discussing the applicant among *themselves*.
When an individual Pontifex queries the applicant for
further information, it is not an act essential to his
function, but merely helpful to the Pontiff's defining
his stance. If the exchange is confined to his questions
and her answers, the request for further information
has ended satisfactorily. But if he speak of his official
stance--a topic unnecessary to his business with the
applicant--then he has breached the confidentiality of
the College by discussing his judgement outside its
protection. Further, since he states his view on official
matters, it becomes an public statement, just as the
ultimate decision of the College is stated in a final
notice to the applicant. The logic follows: is that
final notice of the College's collective judgement
required to be broadcast upon the main list? No.
It may be sent only to the applicant. May she inform
others of the final judgement regarding her petition?
Yes. The final notice is an official document summing
up the conclusion of the College. The point thus to be
inferred: a statement of a Pontifex's final judgement
having been sent to the applicant, she may view the
statement as a notice of a single Pontiff's *official*
final judgement, therefore a statement that she may
disclose at will. The Pontiff's communication of his
decision is similar to an additional commentary upon
the final notice of the College, one in either support
or dissent from the prevailing view, although it has,
in fact, preceded that collective announcement.

This is my unabridged explanation. If it doesn't prove
my argument; if the breach has not been adequately
demonstrated to have occurred on Felix's part; if any
doubt remains of Kyrinia's propriety; then, in deepest
shame, I must beg not to be considered...

Rome's humble servant,
Cn. Aelius Rusticus

Subject:	Shhh, Kyrinia...
From:	"Nathan Hicks" moman@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:11:10 -0400

-----Original Message-----
From: K--------e Ariadne <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200028091056078198169061186140081090177098100046209130" >k--------eariadne@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Fwd: Re: GRRRR


>I am not one who forwards personal correspondence to lists. I receive my
slap
>on the wrist for doing so and apologize for the lack of taste and possibly
>judgment. If it gets me the justice that I deserve, it is worth it.


Not so hasty now, Kyrinia... I think I have made a strong case
for your actions being neither a personal correspondence nor a
breach of confidentiality. We'll see... Perhaps we shall catch
this would-be lawyer, Sulla, like a retarius ensnared by his own
net! ;)


>I want this issue cleared up, NOW, before he insults me any further
publically.
> I will not have my name dragged in the dirt over a difference in religious
>beliefs!!


Don't wory, his doing such an action would be only a further
indication of his breach. It would make you look good. But
you can still be vindicated in public debate... For the fun of
it, and if it please you, I will continue to pursue that outcome.


Vale,
Rusticus

Subject:	Re: Pro Kyrinia
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:01:39 EDT

Salvete,

Kyrene has forwarded the correspondence in question to me personally, and
I'll be looking it over today/this evening as my time allows. Right now I'm
at work and can't give the situation full attention.

However, I DO have one question. Rusticus officially resigned his Citizenship
some months ago, last Fall I believe. Has his Citizenship been re-instated?
If not I might recommend that he contact the Censors and do so if he is coing
to be contributing to this forum on a regular basis. I personally have no
objection in the least to him doing that...

Now as to the message:

In a message da--------7/19/1999 4:48:37 AM Pacific Dayligh--------me, &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=029233014237078135050082190036" &g--------man@--------&l--------&g--------br> writes:

<<
>From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
>But the problem was that the deicsion wasnt done...Felix was one
>Pontiff..there are 4 other Pontiffs who have still to vote! Audens. Hence,
>my disagreement with Rusticus.


> But, Sulla, that the issue still awaits an official judgement
is a fact central to my argument. I fault myself for the mis-
understanding: I have presumed too much to be evident.
My argument, enlarged by the surrounding facts, follows:

(amputatio)

For everyone's information, there have been a number of issues surrounding
Kyrene's application for priesthood. Since this has been the case, I
personally asked each of the Pontiffs to help sort the situation out. Felix,
in his zeal as a new Pontiff, wrote to Kyrene immediately. I believe the
situation became a little blurred between "official inquiry" and "personal
correspondence". I've only had a chance to peek at the OTHER Emails, and can
see that the exchange of Emails degenerated very quickly.

I'm still hopeful that all this can be sorted out quickly and relatively
painlessly, however. Because of that I'm not going to argue general rules of
conduct, etc. My belief is that the situation boils down to two people not
getting along as they come from different points of view. Simple stuff really!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

Subject:	Re: Mars Pater [was Tyr]
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:01:46 GMT

Salve

Audens wrote (most wisely):

>When the Dictator lays down his office then will be the time to bring
>the case of Cinncinnatus to the fore, since the Dictator Germanicus
>seems resolved not to move further upon it, and at that time, as has
>been promised by all Magistrates is the time to look deeply into this
>unwholesome situation. Let the Dictator do his work, as that seems to
>be what the nation desires. Let the instruments of justice do their
>work, when released from the bond of agreement placed upon us by the
>selection of a Dictator.
>
I agree most whole-heartedly with this. The primary concern is to stabilize
the Res Publica and give it a functional government. When that government is
running and in place, then it can address the issue of Cincinnatus as is
provided for by the Constitution. It may seem harsh to some to plead the
expediency of rebuilding for keeping this situation up in the air, and were
I in Cincinnatus's sandals I'm sure I wouldn't be very happy about it, but
personal felings aside there are times when you have to give someone the
chance to do his job as he sees it and then handle what you can once he is
done. This is such a time. However, I also agree that there is no need for
rancor on either side. This needs to be a time for healing not further
hurting. I would plead with my fellow citizens to please focus their
energies on positive building and healing instead of causing rifts.

Vale

Lucina Iunia Cypria

Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:47:50 GMT

Salve

>From: K--------e Ariadne <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200028091056078198169061186140081090177098100046209130" >k--------eariadne@--------</a>
>
>--- w--------am wheeler <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125075047121158135036082190036" >wuffa@--------</a> wrote:
> > Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:17:38 -0700
> > From: w--------am wheeler <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125075047121158135036082190036" >wuffa@--------</a>
> > Organization: Acta Sanctorum Corpus Ordo Vox Hermeius et Templum
> > To: K--------e Ariadne <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200028091056078198169061186140081090177098100046209130" >k--------eariadne@--------</a>
> > Subject: Re: GRRRR
>
> > > > > LOL My apologies to you. He doesn't mind,
> > > > So you believe
> > > I'm very close to Apollo, and He knows that I mean it affectionately.
> > > I leave it up to HIM to tell me, not you.
>
> > again so you believe , You are the one who has madeup gods in her mind
> > I Have voted no , when and if you wish to be real let me know.
>
>
>
>Salvete all,
>
>I would like to know if it is standard procedure when one applies for the
>priesthood to have her and her religious beliefs insulted by her fellow
>members
>who are supposed to be voting for her application.
>
>I would also like to know what Nova Roma usually does in situations like
>these.
>
>Between the rudeness and arrogance of being told that my gods and my
>beliefs
>are "in my head," and being voted against because my beliefs are not the
>same
>as this--person's--I would demand an apology for his rude behavior and ask
>at
>the very least that his attitude be taken in consideration for my vote.
>
>
>I am adopted by Athene and the Morrigan. I will not stand for such
>treatment
>by one towards me, my gods, and my beliefs.
>
>To say that I am pissed would be putting it rather mildly.
>
>
>Fellow members and peers, I await your advice.
>
>
>Valete et khairete,
>
>-Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
I, for one, am shocked at the behavior of this William Wheeler fellow and
whoever though to appoint him to the collegium of the pontifices should
rethink and get rid of him. His behavior has been atrocious and outrageous.
His arrogant response to Kyrinia smacks of the worst sort of hubris.

Vale

Lucina Iunia Cypria

Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:03:41 GMT

Salve

Sulla, my prayers are with you and your family. Serena, let Germanicus know
I send good wishes for his speedy recovery. This seems to be a bad time for
many of us. My own father is going in for heart surgery on Weds.

Vale
Cypria

Subject:	Re: Tyr Again
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:26:00 EDT

In a message dated 7/18/99 11:39:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123166234108158153184218249036129208" >gangale@--------</a>
writes:

<< So Quirites, if you will not support the cause of Cincinnatus out of
enlightenment and a sense of justice, do so out of self-preservation.
>>

LOL Such dramatics. My dear Gangalius, such fear mongering does not suit
you. Believe as you wish, harrangue the *masses* to quake in fear of the
dreaded tyrant, but it does little but soil your reputation as a level-headed
citizen Certainly sounds like quite a different man than the one who has
spoken to my husband on more than one occasion quite civilly.....::shaking
head::

When you surface for air, I again suggest you take a look at the multitude of
progress Germanicus has brought to Nova Roma.

I would also suggest that your *cause* might receive a modicum more respect
and validation without the ludicrous comparisons to every known tyrant of the
20th Century. Trust me...if Germanicus *does* start to relocate our Japanese
neighbors, you will be the very first one I notify. In the meantime I am
happy to report that the Dover-NYC trains are still about 15 minutess off
schedule. ::sarcasm mode off::

::grin::

Priscilla Vedia Serena

Subject:	Re: Re: Pro Kyrinia
From:	"Nathan Hicks" moman@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:30:33 -0400

-----Original Message-----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------; <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 9:02 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Pro Kyrinia


>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------;
>
>Salvete,
>
>Kyrene has forwarded the correspondence in question to me personally, and
>I'll be looking it over today/this evening as my time allows. Right now I'm
>at work and can't give the situation full attention.

I'm glad to see you're handling it, Cassi. Legal arguments can only
assign blame; they can't mend hurt feelings and stitch together the
fractured pieces of NR, as your prudent and soothing mediation
has so often done.


>However, I DO have one question. Rusticus officially resigned his Citizenship
>some months ago, last Fall I believe. Has his Citizenship been re-instated.

I have my paterfamilias' permission to return to my Gens. I have
delayed the application out of sheer sloth. As for the frequency of
my posting, NR is full of opportunity for one who humbly strives
to imitate the Roman art of public declamation. That fact has been
loudly bemoaned by some, but embraced by me and a notable few.


Some responses to your comments:

>> But, Sulla, that the issue still awaits an official judgement
>> is a fact central to my argument. I fault myself for the mis-
>> understanding: I have presumed too much to be evident.
>> My argument, enlarged by the surrounding facts, follows:
>
>(amputatio)
>
>For everyone's information, there have been a number of issues surrounding
>Kyrene's application for priesthood.

No doubt. Everything seems complex until the essence has
been distilled. But my argument uses only publicly-known
and indefeasible facts (listed below) to present a valid and
likely explanation of Kyrinia's actions. Its implications for
the behaviour of public officials in the midst of their duties
is perhaps worth the torture of shifting through my dry
verbiage. Regardless, its conclusion can't be altered by
the emergence of new information.

The only direct way of countering it is by digging up some
passage in the law that fixes public dissemination as the
only medium of announcing religious appointments. Until
then, the ambiguity between what is officially stated over
e-mail and what is private makes the distinction of those
two entirely subjective. Kyrinia was probably confused by
this ambiguity and decided with her gut. An understandable
reaction.


>Since this has been the case, I
>personally asked each of the Pontiffs to help sort the situation out. Felix,
>in his zeal as a new Pontiff, wrote to Kyrene immediately.
>
> I believe the
>situation became a little blurred between "official inquiry" and "personal
>correspondence".

Well, as you have said, the nature of this aspect has not been
firmly ascertained. While it may sound as though Felix were
mixing the business of his office with the pleasure of insulting
the applicants, that would be too a rash conclusion. We'll all
be interested to hear more when more is determined.


>I've only had a chance to peek at the OTHER Emails, and can
>see that the exchange of Emails degenerated very quickly.
>
>I'm still hopeful that all this can be sorted out quickly and relatively
>painlessly, however. Because of that I'm not going to argue general rules of
>conduct, etc. My belief is that the situation boils down to two people not
>getting along as they come from different points of view. Simple stuff really!

Simple on the face of it, yes. However, when one person involved
is a high-ranking member with many responsibilities, then I do hate
the necessity of it, but deeper questions must be asked... for the
sake of the Republic's stability. And so, I am glad to see the matter
taken up by your capable hands, Cassi.



Regards,
Rusticus


--------The promised list of incontrovertible facts---------

For those interested, I've summarized the points here. Each is known
and uncontested; none is mitigable by further disclosures. I may leave
out a crucial one by negligence. Feel free to check.


I. Involving our two gladiators:
1. Kyrinia and Felix had an e-mail discussion.
2. Felix at some point stated his official judgement.
3. Kyrinia posted that statement to the public list.

II. Involving the nature of the law and political structure:
1. Communications of an official nature may be deemed confidential.
2. An query to an applicant is not necessary to the official discussion.
3. Any such query can be limited without impairing its effectiveness,
a. To include only pertinent questions.
b. To exclude the final judgement of the questioner.
4. Therefore, anything more cannot protected by the confidentiality.
5. The final judgement of the collective body is open to the public.
6. Individual Pontifices may add to this with supporting or dissenting
public commentaries of their own views.
7. The specific medium via which such notices are to be posted has
not been detailed in the law.
8. Since individuals may add post-decision commentary, individuals
may make official statements of their stances publicly in advance
the collective decision.
9. See I.2; that could be interpreted as a public statement. Thus, I.3

III. General truths:
1. The absence of one law is implicitly supportive of its opposite. II.4; II.6-8
2. Personal communication does not normally include the expressly-stated
final decision of an official.
3. The customs of respecting private communication can only be exercised
when the issue leaves no uncertainty as to its private status. I.2; II.6-9

That's all folks.

Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:41:28 EDT

In a message dated 7/19/99 1:03:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189176234185056182213038203004129208071" >tinnekke@--------</a> writes:

<< Sulla, my prayers are with you and your family. Serena, let Germanicus
know
I send good wishes for his speedy recovery. This seems to be a bad time for
many of us. My own father is going in for heart surgery on Weds.

Vale
Cypria >>

Thank you...I certainly will. I will also add your father in my prayers.
May the gods and goddesses bless him with a successful operation and a speedy
recovery!!

Priscilla Vedia Serena

Subject:	Fine, let's hear the other side now
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:55:46 -0400

Salvete Omnes,

Audite et alteram partem

Cassius:
>I feel that I have no choice but to reply to the latest comments by L.
>Sergius Aust.

? Hummm, where are they?

>Scaevola:
>> My email to you was an expression of willingness to consider the
> possibility that I might have been wrong in this matter.
>
>Cassius:
>Fine. I'll take the time to write out what I know, but don't believe for a
>moment that it will change anything.

Cincinnatus: I have faced the truth, You own the webpage. Or have you
turned it over to Germanicus? In any case It sould properly be administered
by Elected magistrates. Perhaps the elected Consules should pay the webpage
bill for their year, then they would have 'imperium' in deed as well as
name. I would have been happy to pay for it but you had your reason to keep
control, as we all found out.
>
Cassius:
>Firstly, I'll say one thing about the Committee. You were *not* wrong that
>there was a problem with the Tribes being assigned. Nobody was screaming
>about that louder than me, however.

Cincinnatus: What? Cassius you never brought up the subject. If you wanted
it done why didn't you do it? You were one of the Censores since the very
beginning.

Cassius:
>Germanicus was originally going to be the person that set up the Tribes and
>Centuries. Sadly, he was not able to finish during the first year, and in
>fact left Nova Roma for a time.

Cincinnatus: Yes, and he even went as far as renouncing citizenship.
>
Cassius:
>When my Co-Consul (Germanicus) left NR was completely in an uproar. It
took MONTHS to get everything calmed down. After that the roller-coaster ride
>didn't let up in the least...

Cincinnatus: Months? Metellus was appointed the Consul, Palladius was
appointed Censor and I was given a seat in the Senate all in a matter of
days. The "uproar" was caused by Germanicus returning as suddenly as he
left, many citizens questioned his motives.
>
Cassius:
>Finally, the elections were over. In January I was incredibly busy at work,
>as we were opening up a new building for the family company and moving
>ourselves into it. I was working something like 70 hour weeks for a couple
of months.

CIncinnatus: This is no ones fault, if you could not keep up with the duties
of the office you should have stepped down and put the Republic first. You
chose to keep the title and position but without doing the job. Meanwhile,
we're all expected to wait on your highness.
>
Cassius:
>At this point, still absorbed at work, I informed Consul Cincinnatus that I
>was simply unable to form the tribes. In no uncertain terms I made it clear
>that I simply didn't know anything *about* them... and that it'd probably
two
>or three months of being in my new job before I'd have the time to do the
>research and set them up properly. I told him that he'd have to get the
>Senate to find someone to figure out the tribal system and get the Citizens
>assigned into it if he wanted it done before then.

Cincinnatus: This sounds like a resignation, without resigning. I was not
given the citizens list for Months and even then it was incomplete and out
of date. Flavia Claudia sent it to me in April. She then would send updates
as she got them, rarely.
>
Cassius:
>It was then, in January I believe, that Cincinnatus absolved me of the work
>of the tribes, and told me he'd set up the system himself.

Cincinnatus: It is not my place to "absolve" the Censores of any work.
I said I would make up the Tribes and submit them to the Censores. It is
still Palladius' and your responsibility, but you didn't even take the time
to send me anything to help until just before Roman Days.

Cassius:
Decius Iunius had
>also plead off the project, also on the grounds that he wasn't particularly
>knowledgeable and had no ideas for how to do it. Did Cincinnatus then form
a
>Committee to work on the project? No..

CIncinnatus: Once again, the Centuries and Tribes are the Job of the
Censores. I said I would help, I would make up a list of them for your
approval, but I did not receive any information from you (Cassius) until the
week before Roman Days.
>
Cassius:
>Unfortunately, he didn't. January ended, and February passed, then March!
>People were SCREAMING for the tribes, and Cincinnatus was still balking,
>saying that he couldn't even come up with a system for the tribes until he
>had an absolutely complete Citizen's list.

Cincinnatus: I never Got Any LIST from you or Palladius, I finally got a
list from Flavia Claudia that was MONTHS out of date! How could I do
anything without a list of citizens? Also the Gens page on the site had not
been updated in months either. Citizens who have been members since last
year know how the site was not maintained of a few months.
>
Cassius:
>Some background info here... The Citizens list is done in Microsoft Excel.
>Neither Decius or I had that software or knew how to use it. At the time
>Flavia Iucunda was then keeping the Citizens List officially ...

Cincinnatus: Once again, it's somebody else's fault.
>
Cassius:
>Then of course, with April came the NEW crisis. The whole issue with Sulla
>and the Senate board blew up... and the Senate basically ceased to exist.
>Cincinnatus and Flavia Claudia were determined to strip Sulla of his
>Citizenship,

Cincinnatus: This is not true. Neither Flavia or I made any mention of
exile. I only wanted the citizens to know what had happened. No one ever
said anything about Sulla's citizenship but you, Cassius.

Cassius:
everybody else thought it just wasn't that big an issue. Both
>Germanicus and Flavia Claudia resigned, then came back. Nobody would talk
to
>anybody else (except to me... I managed to stay on speaking terms with
>everyone) and NO business was done for something like 30 full days. In
>effect, Nova Roma had no government whatsoever above the level of
Provincial
>Praetor. The only office that WAS still functioning was that of Censor...

Cincinnatus: That is because Sulla had hacked into the Senate and we needed
to find a new place for the Senate to meet.
>
Cassius:
>You know, thinking back, that would have been a GOOD time to quit Nova Roma
>altogether on the spot. Well, 20/20 hindsight! ;)
>
CIncinnatus: Yes, this seems to be the popular answer, Quit.
"Winners never quit and quitters never win."

>Finally, Cincinnatus was able to force through the ridiculous reprimand for
>Sulla, and then started to propose new business.

CIncinnatus: You were the only one to vote against it, After you told us you
supported a reprimand. I also posted Sulla's tax proposal and the propsal for the Sodalitas Pro Infantia to the Senate and took the heat for those not being accepted, like I was Dictator and I could just say "yea, sure whatever".

Cassius:
The Senate tentatively
>started to meet again. Cincinnatus announced to Decius Iunius and myself
>that he had a plan for the tribes and Centuries. This was in May I believe.
>Then, when he announced his idea...

Cincinnatus: I had discussed ideas with Palladius by phone and there were
none that were "unworkable", only different ideas. In any case the tribes
,like the citizens infomation, would be a job that would have to be
continually kept up by the Censores.
>
Cassius:
>I explained to Cincinnatus that NOBODY could maintain such a system. The
>Censors would basically to have to check the entire tribal system every
time a new Citizen joined... what a mess. In exasperation I took the job back,
and asked the Senate to please give Decius Iunius and I some assistance. I also
>asked for assistance from folks in personal Emails.

Cincinnatus: You never "took the job back", because it was always yours. I
only offered to help, but was only given infromation from you the week prior
to Roman Days. Nice bag job, you had over a year to do it and didn't, yet
you give me less that a week. Then when we meet you change your mind and
decide to go with Palladius' plan.
>
Cassius:
>And, that's when the flood started. Cincinnatus was still trying to push
his idea. Added to that was Callidius' huge and complex presentation, (even
>worse!) and input from something like a dozen other Citizens, including
>Graecus and Sulla and Germanicus. The agitation was getting extreme.
>Callidius refused to acknowledge that any plan but his existed...

Cincinnatus: I don't think Calladius did anything but try to help. He was
always a very reasonable man, who has a great deal of knowledge.
>
Cassius:
>Naturally, while we tried to make sense out of all the furor going on, yet
>another Crisis hit. Patricia was unable to carry on the website, and
resigned as Webmistress, leaving NR without anyone whatever to keep the site going. Germanicus volunteered in her wake, and was promised the webmaster
position.The NR site was switched onto a new server, and Germanicus began to make changes. Then - Gangalius volunteered for the website. Our Consuls felt
that Gangalius would make a better web person, so they stripped Germanicus of
the Webmaster title and handed it over to Gangalius.

Cincinnnatus: This is NOT true. The Consules, Palladius and I, agreed that
the best way to avoid the problems of the past (The site not being
maintained for months) was to have 2 webmasters and we wanted BOTH Gangalius and Germanicus to work together, IT was Germanicus who QUIT. He wanted complete control or nothing. Aut Caesar aut nihil.

Cassius:
Yup, war again. OH! And...
>because we switched the server for the website, the Citizen application
form was down for some weeks. People couldn't get their forms in...

Cincinnatus: This was fixed by Patricia and when people asked they were told
to print up a application and send it in snail mail.
>
Cassius:
>Whew! Anyway. Decius Iunius finally decided that the only way the tribes
>could be sorted out would be in a face to face meeting, with a bunch of
>people sitting down together to hash out all the details. Roman Days!!!
(June 12 & 13) Cincinnatus said he'd bring his worked out schedule,

Cincinnatus: Which I did, but you simply stated that you and Palladius would
do it by the formula that Palladius proposed. So I just said fine do it then.
>
Cassius:
>Well, it very nearly worked. At the last minute Decius Iunius wasn't able
to attend Roman Days. Cincinnatus showed up without his plan at all.

Cincinnatus: BULL, Cassius, you started the discussion after it was
introduced by Audens by saying you and Palladius would do it, we all agreed
that since it was the job of the Censores in the first place there was no
need for further discussion. I had my list there, but there was no more talk
about it.

Cassius:
I sat down with everyone, we all hashed over what was going on with the tribes, and I said I'd just do the things myself when I got back, whether they were done
>right or not. A bit of an anticlimax after all the fuss, really!

Cincinnatus: Yes, when the subject came up during the meeting you simply
said that you and Palladius would do it by the formula that Palladius had
suggested. SO, since you and he were Censores it is your job, THAT was the
end of the discussion! Don't say I didn't have my plan.
>
Cassius:
>Now, I didn't get back home until June 21st,
>We got the new folks processed, and then completed the tribes, pretty much
as promised. <SNIP>But still, the tribes were done as of June 24th or so.

Cincinnatus: Well, then why weren't they posted?? That would have ended the
whole affair but we have never seen them.
>
Cassius:
>The evening Decius and I were going to get the info up online, I got the
call from Flavia Claudia about the impeachment. Quite frankly, this was out of
>left field! Gross negligence and dereliction of duty??? Something like 85%
>of my personal time has gone into Nova Roma for the last four years...

Cincinnatus: It was yours and Palladius' job. It didn't get done, wasn't
getting done and still isn't done. Stop blaming everyone else.
>
Cassius:
>Still, although the Committee went out of it's way not to leave me one tiny
>shred of self respect, that is NOT why I consulted with the Senate for
>Interregnum. And, please do note that while the Board of Directors was also
>consulted for legal matters, it was the SENATE that did this thing. In
accord were myself, Decius Iunius, Germanicus, Flavia Claudia, and Metellus. The only Senator voting against Interregnum, oh, and for prosecution, was
>Cincinnatus.

Cincinatus: I never voted on anything, Period. I did not convene the Senate
and if it was convened I was not informed via any media. The mysteryous Metellus showed well where was he for all the other votes?
Censores have no authority to convene the Senate. Where is their 'imperium'?
Censores don't have it. Show us where it is written. Oh, you own the
website, so you can do whatever you want regardless of the constitution.
>
>Why the Interregnum? First of all, the government of Nova Roma had been
>tottering between being dysfunctional and dissolved for some months. Now,
>with a fight brewing between the Magistrates and the Senate, the
Magistrates against the Censors, and the two Consuls against each other...

Cincinntus: Palladius and I had often spoken on the phone and were working
together, so I thought.
>
Cassius:
>Secondly, this Committee thing was not only illegal, it was insane.

Cincinnatus: Where do you get this idea that a "committee" to discuss what
to do about magistrates not doing their job is illegal?? Where is it
illegal? Nonsense

Cassius:
Most of the people involved knew EXACTLY what was going on with the tribes, almost to the very minute. I'd sat down and had a long personal talk with Marcus
>Audens, (who helped to draw up the charges) explaining exactly what had
>happened with the tribes, when they would be done, HOW they would be done,
>etc. [LATER NOTE: Marcus Audens and I later hashed all this out. Turns out
>that he'd only agreed to an open letter about the tribes, and was not going
>to support the Impeachment.]

Cincinnatus: Like I said there were many ideas being discussed, nobody was
'for' impeachment. But there is no need to think on that now as we all now
know that we were working under a Triumverate (Germanicus,Cassius,Palladius)
the whole time.
>
Cassius:
>Same with Sulla, who talked with Q. Fabius all the time. With Cincinnatus
it was even worse... he was *involved* with the work of creating the tribes!
He and Decius and I were now working on the project in tandem... he'd help us
>work on the tribes, and then go to the Comittee to help work on our
>Impeachment. I hope that strikes you as a little odd. Gangalius also knew,
>since he was going to be putting the tribes up on the website, a Germanicus
>has now done.

Cincinnatus: The tribes are on the website? When was this announced and
where are they? Let's see them.

>Scaevola:
>> I am open to being persuaded that the course of recent events was not
> primarily about the protection of your personal Dignitas. If it was, there
> is of course nothing more to say.
>
Cassius:
>Had I not been attacked so bitterly and personally, I'd have done what I've
>been doing for two years now and worked to solve things between all
>concerned. I'd have had a long talk with Cincinnatus,

Cincinnatus: When you called me, you said you were going to "take it all
down". I said "I guess me being Consul doesn't mean anything." You laughed
at me, yep we know where we stand now.
>
Cassius:
>The Interregnum stopped ALL the games going on.

Cincinnatus: Like I said, You own the webpage and you did whatever you
wanted REGARDLESS of the Constitution. That was the Coup de'tat!
>
>Scaevola:
> >My previous email indicated that I would make no use elsewhere of
anything you said to me in an email. This remains true after this go-away message.
>
>Cassius:
>I did NOT in fact tell you to go away...>Vale,Marcus Cassius Julianus


Cincinnatus: No, you let Germanicus do it for you.
It is truly sad that the situation was allowed to reach this point, but I
think we have wasted enough time on this. Alae iacta est

Valete Quirites, L Equitius

I do have to add that the Cassii were good enough to return my money. I
wonder why they never just sent me what I ordered from the Mecellum.

Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:14:46 -0400

At 16:47 19/07/99 GMT, you wrote:
Salvete Omnes,
I've been watching from the sidelines and refraining from comment as I've
been inculcated with a relocation process and maintaining my studies. I do
want to take a moment, however, to make a bit of a statement on behalf of
Felix. Those of us who have spent a good portion of our academic careers
studying the Religio in a formal context, we develop a sense of honor about
our knowledge on the subject. Those of us who have taken the Religio to
heart and adopted it in our everyday practice uphold that honor even more.
I take the Gods very seriously and am disheartened by practices that do not
seem to honor them, but infantilize them. Perhaps children can speak to
the Gods in this manner, but certainly not someone I would turn to as my
priestess of Apollo. I applaud Kyrinia's zeal, but agree with Felix in
that there might be someone better suited for a position that requires
Gravitas, one of our heartheld virtues as Roman citizens. I also feel that
Felix was a bit hasty in his reaction to Kyrinia. As any other citizen,
she deserves our respect as a sister in the Religio. Perhaps before
respond emotionally to each other on this list and in private, we should
look to Minerva for wisdom in our words and Ceres to pacify our reponse.


Brightest of Blessings to you All,
Valete,
Orbianna



>I, for one, am shocked at the behavior of this William Wheeler fellow and
>whoever though to appoint him to the collegium of the pontifices should
>rethink and get rid of him. His behavior has been atrocious and outrageous.
>His arrogant response to Kyrinia smacks of the worst sort of hubris.
>
>Vale
>
>Lucina Iunia Cypria
>
Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
----------------------------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=165212250009158116172098203108129208071" &--------rbianna@--------</a&--------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197212253112056209171056066140114002071048139" >proserpina@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704

"I will teach you to know yourself" -Persephone, as Queen of the Underworld

Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:51:06 GMT

Salve Orbianna

I agree that we should be thoughtful in our replies in this situation.
Believe it or not, that was my honest opinion of the matter after thinking
it over.

Vale

Cypria

Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: GRRRR
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:47:56 GMT

Salve Serena,

Thank you for your prayers. Every good wish for him is one more appreciated.

Vale

Cypria

Subject:	CMM de novo publico iure
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:15:14 -0400

Salvete Dictator Flavi Vedi et alii

I am amazed at the sheer volume of this work. Hopefully, you’ll rest
properly now and feel better soon. Indeed, I hope that you feel well enough
rested to consider staying on as Dictator for a few more months, since I don
’t believe that your baby can yet crawl on its own.

In the meantime, I submit my comments on the constitution and accompanying
laws/decrees/consulta for your review and discussion of any interested
citizens. The present message deals with the constitution.

Heading format: How about using capital Roman numerals for articles, lower
case Roman numerals for paragraphs, and bullets for further sub-paragraphs?
If I or someone else ever translates the new constitution into Latin, it
would be nice to have correspondence between the English and Latin headings
without resorting to Arabic numerals, don’t you think? Herein I leave your
headings as they are.

A. – So now there is no doubt. No amount of legalese, however, will stop a
lawyer who wants to probe for holes, right Luci Corneli :)? I think that
recognition of the validity of priests’ and augurs’ decrees is a very good
idea. Would it not be better, however, for magistrates’ edicts to have a
little more weight than augurs’ decrees? As it is written now, Dexippus (no
offense to you Dexippe), who is augur for life I believe, supersedes any
future elected consuls in authority.

B. – The Corporation’s agreement to this language, or to something nearly
identical to it, is essential if there is to be any Nova Roma at all.

II. C. “The Orders”. The redefinition of the orders seems to me to
prohibit patricians from becoming equestrian. I don’t think that that’s
beneficial to Nova Roma, as it discourages a significant number of citizens,
some of whom will probably turn out to be the most consistently active
citizens in the long haul (if there is any), from pursuing business that
benefits the treasury.

“Tribes and Centuries” This paragraph seems more like a part of the next
article, III. Comitia, rather than part of II. Citizens and Gentes. But as
you like. I think that the weighting of votes by electoral participation
(in the tribes) and by overall participation (in the centuries) is a very
good idea! It does, however, add to the censors’ work :(.

III. A. “The Comitia Curiata” Please re-consider this. You are adding a
whole new assembly to a system that has yet to work successfully. And the
new assembly has ceremonial functions, and is made up not of the citizenry,
but of lictors! Lictors! More on them later.

I would like to point out that you have the curule aediles and plebeian
aediles elected by different assemblies. This is as I believe it should be.
More on that later.

IV. Magistrates
I don’t think that any consul or praetor of Nova Roma needs a procession of
lictors in front of him/her. Gaius Drusus Domitianus was right to wonder
what the lictor thing is about. There aren’t enough active citizens in Nova
Roma now to precede a full complement of magistrates, I’ll bet. It’s a nice
thought; I like lictors, fasces and other symbols of Roman power. How
about some curule chairs? But I don’t see the real need for any of it here
and now. The inclusion of lictors makes me wonder what the point of the
constitutional reform is. Now, I have been here for a few months and seen
this micronation seemingly off to a good start; then, a failure to
implement what seemed to me an excellent constitution. Why? It wasn’t a
lack of lictors that prevented implementing the constitution, that’s for
sure.

Other than lictors, most of what is here is good. Exception: in function,
all aediles are the same. You have plebeian aediles as empowered to impose
intercessio on curule aediles. If you want to go that route, please get rid
of the “curule” and “plebeian” tags for the aediles, and have one assembly
elect them all. By the way, can anyone explain the distinction between
aediles and aediles curules in ancient Rome? Did not the candidate with the
most votes become curule aedile, while those who won fewer votes became
“plain” aediles?

Why such a fuss over curule aediles, you may ask? Well, in the elections,
there was nothing for which a patrician could vote. We have, rightly, a
Tribune of the Plebs; let’s keep the patrician option for curule aediles as
it was in the old constitution, namely, that the curule aediles could be
either patrician or plebeian. I’d further like to see only the curule
aediles, not the plebeian aediles, empowered with intercessio.

Otherwise, you can save some headache just by stripping the tags as I said
and having a pool of aediles every year, elected by one body at once. Easy
peasy. That is, if people are there to run for office and vote.

One significant change is the collegial nature of the tribunes’ intercessio.
I see the rationale for this, I think, to prevent further Callidan-type
episodes where a single tribune “holds everyone hostage”. I had a law in
mind to address this by specifying that intercessio would only be valid if
immediately reported to the public. That way, a tribune (or any other
magistrate) would have to feel confident that he/she was making a good,
defensible judgment before imposing intercessio.

On the other hand, if the tribunes must agree in order to impose
intercessio, should not all magistrates have this burden as well? If the
consuls want to naysay, let them agree between themselves first; if the
praetors want to do it, let them do so as well. The power of intercessio
made the Tribune of the Plebs perhaps the most powerful magistrates in the
middle/late Republic. If we want to make a viable re-building of Roma’s
system, it seems to me that the tribunes should not be so castrated before
the other magistrates.

Why the limit to two quaestors? Is it because of the bountiful new offices
to be generated (see below)?

“The twenty-six”. What for?

“Attendants”. Their functions could be relegated to elected magistrates. I
’m not kidding. We’re not a huge organization, people. The interregnum,
whatever caused it, was not the result of too few magistrates. Not by a
longshot. It was lack of cooperation. We cannot legislate cooperation, but
we can have a streamlined constitution and organizational structure. As I
see it, “the twenty-six”, “attendants” and lictors are all just more stuff,
more titles for people to wear. Or do we want to have so many offices that
we can be totally sure that each and every one of us will have a title to
put under our names when we submit messages to the list?

V Sounds great, except for the lictors for provincial governors.

VI How is the collegium pontificum formed? Perhaps it’s early yet to fill
in the numbers of constituents to this body (1+14+12+6+2). In effect,
wouldn’t that mean that the collegium could not function without 18 members,
because no majority of its membership yet exists?

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Thanks for Prayers
From:	Marius Fimbria legion6@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:34:17 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete omnes...

I had mentioned this to several friends in private: that my Combat
Poodle Pepper, who accompanied me to Desert Storm and who is now 15
years old, had stopped eating a couple of weeks ago. At that time I
had requested that these several friends offer up prayer on Pepper's
behalf. (I have neither spouse nor children, so the illness of a dog
is a family emergency in my household.)

Pepper is doing rather better since I made the request. The vet said
he had sinus, as well as scalp problems and sore gums; he put Pepper on
antibiotics, which have helped. He's lost two pounds (he only weighed
twelve to begin with), and he still hasn't got his former appetite
back...but he can drink water just fine again, and he takes in maybe a
cup of rice with ground chicken each day, and half a cup of cottage
cheese. His skin and gums are looking a lot better, too; he hasn't got
that stuff coming out of his eyes anymore; and, most importantly, he's
never lost his ATTITUDE!! (Anyone who knows this dog knows to put that
word in all-caps.)

I wanted to thank everyone who has offered up prayer for this special
pup, and to ask you to continue doing so until he's totally out of the
woods. He is staying with a vet while I go on a trip for the next
couple of weeks; I'm still kinda worried about leaving him, but I've
needed a mental-health break for quite a long while and I do trust the
people who'll be caring for him in my absence.

Again, I am grateful for everyone's well-wishes. Profundas et multibus
gratias vobis ago, cari amici...and I'll be seeing some of you in a few
days!! >({|:-D

Yours under the Eagles...
************************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |\=/|
mka Märia Villarroel ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> >[SPQR]< `\*/, ``}`^~``,,, \ \
Roman Historical Re-Creationist ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
and Citizen of Nova Roma | | / )\ \| /
'Latin a dead language?...Not _|_| / _/_| /`(
within a 50' radius of me it ain't!' /./..=' /./..'

Subject:	The Prodigal Returns!!!
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:50:17 -0400 (EDT)

Rusticus;

Well Slothful One (<Grin>);

Let me be one of the first to welcome you back when you make it
official. I was very sorry to see you go, and am pleased at your
return. Your argument for correspondence was intricate if not
convincing. I thought I undrstood before, but it is all disolving into
mush in the heat. Maybe when the cooler weather returns (<Grin>)..

Welcome Back!!

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Germanicus
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:57:25 -0400 (EDT)

I too would like to weigh in with my condoences for Germanicus illness.
When I was younger I used to make it a habit to drink two tall glasses
of hot lemonade heavily laced with rum every day of a cold or flu. To
my knowledge it had no medicinal effect whatsoever on the illness, but
after a few bouts, I got to where I looked forward to the next cold /
flu!! (<Grin>).

Okay let's get outa the sack and hit it sailor, take two aspirin and
check with the doc in the mornin"!!!

I hope for a full recovery, but certainly not before the rum bottle is
empty!! God forbid!!!!

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Future???
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:24:05 -0500 (CDT)

Once we have the entire infrastructure of Nova Roma in place that
allows government to work efficiently what then? If we look beyond the
wall the entire purpose of forming this government in the first place is
to further our desires - expansion of the Religio Romana, archeological
studies, Latin studies, reenactment, etc, etc. etc. What definitive
course of action is Nova Roma to take then???

We argue and fight among ourselfs often showing the worse sides of
our human natures basically to no good end. Ego sometimes gets in the
way of good sense and flame wars begin and everytime has accomplished
nothing but to make disgusted citizens leave. Our biggest problem though
seems to be a failure to communicate well and thus misinformation and
misunderstandings occur.

As a group of commited people we should strive to do the very things
that we wanted to see get done when we joined Nova Roma. As our websight
states, we wish to see a landed center for Nova Roma one day--- a center
for the Religio and our Senate. We obviously want cooperation and
community and friendships to develop in the process of furthering our
interests. We need a plan. Just a mishmash of ideas going into the pool
of thought here isn't enough, but individuals to sit down and decide
courses of action short and long term as to best serve Nova Roman
interests.

Since both of our founders have put the greatest amount of time
and effort into Nova Roma and in saving it from dissolution, perhaps
there were some thoughts each of them have had on the subject---more
specifics. Recommendations? As we still have a Dictater in place, and
decision making through the normal channels of government can take
incredible amounts of time, along with the fact that this is a very
difficult time for Nova Roma just to stay in one piece, perhaps the
Dictator would consider helping this process along and stay in the
position for a short while longer than planned. Cassius too, as
co-founder of Nova Roma and founder of the Julian society must have some
compelling ideas. Would the Dictator be interested in at least forming
members of a special committee to make presentations to the Senate body
or perhaps the Senate discusses these items independently?

My thoughts are basically that without definite plans there will
be inaction, in which inaction leads to dissolusionment and fidgeting
which also leads to bickering which will also occur whether planning is
done or not. Yet if we are going to bicker anyway, it might as well be
over something worthwhile to bicker about.


Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	de Rustice
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:28:39 -0700

Cassius wrote:

> However, I DO have one question. Rusticus officially resigned his Citizenship
> some months ago, last Fall I believe. Has his Citizenship been re-instated?
> If not I might recommend that he contact the Censors and do so if he is coing
> to be contributing to this forum on a regular basis. I personally have no
> objection in the least to him doing that...

I asked the boy (again) last night if he thought of re-applying for Nova Roma
citizenship. He said yes, if he could rejoin gens Aelia. I told him he had caught me in
a good mood and to go ahead and do so. Before my mood changed. Today he told me that he
had sent in that application. So, I am here telling the whole of the Nova Roman world, as
well as the Censors, that I do accept him as a member of gens Aelia. I put some
conditions on this regarding he and I. We shall see if he gets reaccepted before he does
his next monumental screw-up. [Just how does Nova Roma interpret the Paterfamilias' right
over life and limb of his family members?]

May the Gods favor us All on this one!

C. Aelius Ericius
Paterfamilias of gens Aelia (and probably in need of having his head examined)

Subject:	Senate Appointments
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:35:22 -0400

Salvete!

In the time since my initial post offering to appoint various individuals to
the Senate, some have not seen fit to accept my offer, either for very valid
reasons, because of apathy, or due to spite. To those who have not accepted
the position either by informing me via private email, or by posting their
Oath publically to the list, I say that the time has past and the offer is
closed. (To those who have taken the time to decline, I thank you for your
consideration, and fully accept and understand your reasons.)

To those who have chosen to accept the responsibilities that go with
membership in the Senate, I thank you on behalf of our oh-so-fragile
Republic and bid you act with the wisdom, deliberation, and patience that an
endeavor as awesome and as noble as ours demands.

In service to the Republic,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	Constitution and Laws
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:39:06 -0400

Salvete!

Am I to assume that the discussion regarding the proposed new Constitution
and attendent laws is complete? If so, I will be making some final
adjustments based on the feedback found both here and in private email, and
will be posting the final versions tomorrow or Wednesday, Gods willing.

I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to contribute to the
discussion of the new Constitution. Even if your suggestions have not been
followed, they have been heard, and considered, and I value every opinion
that has been voiced.

If anyone has any last-minute suggestions to make, make 'em quick! :-)

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	Re: CMM de novo publico iure
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:20:15 -0700

I have not commented on the the Dictator's Constitution as a whole because I am holding my
comments until the matter of the Dictator's acts comes up for a vote. I do not accept it
as the Constitution of Nova Roma until such time as it IS ratified. But...
Merullus is an intelligent man. He seems to have seen something in a way I did not.
Maybe it is simply "interpretation" ("Interpretation" is one thing that fouled the well
last time around).

RMerullo wrote:

> A. – So now there is no doubt. No amount of legalese, however, will stop a
> lawyer who wants to probe for holes, right Luci Corneli :)? I think that
> recognition of the validity of priests’ and augurs’ decrees is a very good
> idea. Would it not be better, however, for magistrates’ edicts to have a
> little more weight than augurs’ decrees? As it is written now, Dexippus (no
> offense to you Dexippe), who is augur for life I believe, supersedes any
> future elected consuls in authority.

Mind you all, both Nova Roma constitutions say that the ways the ancient Romans did things
is to be our guide. So... Augurs do not supersede Consuls. Augurs are a specialized type
of priest. They take the auspices. They do not do divination for the state. Consuls can
also take auspices. They would do it for the meeting of the Senate. There are many more
erudite "historians" in this gang than me. How many more things like the above are in the
constitution proposed by the dictator? Dig them out and put them forward. It might be
just the Senate voting on authorizing the acts of Germanicus Dictator. That was how my
reading of the New constitution went. The Old Constitution says that the Senate and the
People of Nova Roma ... I'll quote it:

After his or her term of office has expired, the actions of the Dictator will be
subject
to review and final permanent approval by the Senate and Citizens of Nova Roma.

end quote.

One more personal opinion of the proposed new constitution, it is overly wordy and
ponderous. At the risk of offending the non-Americans I will mention the Constitution of
the United States. The Constitution of the U.S. is not loaded with superfluous words.
The only problem with the understanding of it is that our language has mutated over 200
years. As have our values and priorities. For something written by a _committee_ (gasp)
that long ago, it is doing damn well. Ponderous does not make efficient. Germanicus, as
one who still does not regret you having gotten me into this thing, I strongly suggest you
have someone edit that work. It is imposing in the work and effort you obviously put into
it. Give a copy to someone you trust and who shares your ideas (that is not me) and give
them a red correction pen and tell them to trim it. *_Too_ many_* words makes for
confusion.

C. Aelius Ericius.

Subject:	Re: CMM de novo publico iure
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:41:15 -0400

Salve,

> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
> I am amazed at the sheer volume of this work. Hopefully, you'll rest
> properly now and feel better soon. Indeed, I hope that you feel well
enough
> rested to consider staying on as Dictator for a few more months, since I
don
> 't believe that your baby can yet crawl on its own.

Bite your tongue! This isn't a job I would wish on my enemies, let alone
want to keep for any longer than necessary. But thanks for the kind words,
they mean a lot.

> Heading format: How about using capital Roman numerals for articles,
lower
> case Roman numerals for paragraphs, and bullets for further
sub-paragraphs?
> If I or someone else ever translates the new constitution into Latin, it
> would be nice to have correspondence between the English and Latin
headings
> without resorting to Arabic numerals, don't you think? Herein I leave
your
> headings as they are.

Hmmm... lemme play with that and see how it works.

> A. - So now there is no doubt. No amount of legalese, however, will stop
a
> lawyer who wants to probe for holes, right Luci Corneli :)? I think that
> recognition of the validity of priests' and augurs' decrees is a very good
> idea. Would it not be better, however, for magistrates' edicts to have a
> little more weight than augurs' decrees? As it is written now, Dexippus
(no
> offense to you Dexippe), who is augur for life I believe, supersedes any
> future elected consuls in authority.

True, but the range of topics of decreta is specifically limited to issues
dealing with the Religio Romana. (And those of the augurs specifically to
the art of augury.) Thus, any consul couldn't come along and start making
religious pronouncements, just as any pontiff couldn't come along and start
making political decisions.

> B. - The Corporation's agreement to this language, or to something nearly
> identical to it, is essential if there is to be any Nova Roma at all.

Already accomplished. The president of the corporation has agreed to such a
change to the formational documents of the corporation. All that remains is
to actually register the change with the state of NH; the agreement in
principle is done.

> II. C. "The Orders". The redefinition of the orders seems to me to
> prohibit patricians from becoming equestrian. I don't think that that's
> beneficial to Nova Roma, as it discourages a significant number of
citizens,
> some of whom will probably turn out to be the most consistently active
> citizens in the long haul (if there is any), from pursuing business that
> benefits the treasury.

A couple of other folks have commented on that, and yes, I had that in mind
when I rewrote it. But, on reflection, I'll be changing it to something that
treats members as either patricians or plebians, depending on whence they
came originally.

> "Tribes and Centuries" This paragraph seems more like a part of the next
> article, III. Comitia, rather than part of II. Citizens and Gentes. But
as
> you like. I think that the weighting of votes by electoral participation
> (in the tribes) and by overall participation (in the centuries) is a very
> good idea! It does, however, add to the censors' work :(.

The initial work is the hard part (and something that I (as censor) am
working on now). Keeping up with things shouldn't be all that hard. ("Marcus
was made augur. I'd better check that box off on the database.")

> III. A. "The Comitia Curiata" Please re-consider this. You are adding a
> whole new assembly to a system that has yet to work successfully. And the
> new assembly has ceremonial functions, and is made up not of the
citizenry,
> but of lictors! Lictors! More on them later.

But a different sort of lictor. Lictores curiatae aren't the same as
ordinary lictores. Think of them as a specially appointed commission with
the job of performing a specific ceremonal function. They just happen to be
called a comitia.

> I would like to point out that you have the curule aediles and plebeian
> aediles elected by different assemblies. This is as I believe it should
be.
> More on that later.
>
> IV. Magistrates
> I don't think that any consul or praetor of Nova Roma needs a procession
of
> lictors in front of him/her. Gaius Drusus Domitianus was right to wonder
> what the lictor thing is about. There aren't enough active citizens in
Nova
> Roma now to precede a full complement of magistrates, I'll bet. It's a
nice
> thought; I like lictors, fasces and other symbols of Roman power. How
> about some curule chairs? But I don't see the real need for any of it
here
> and now. The inclusion of lictors makes me wonder what the point of the
> constitutional reform is. Now, I have been here for a few months and seen
> this micronation seemingly off to a good start; then, a failure to
> implement what seemed to me an excellent constitution. Why? It wasn't a
> lack of lictors that prevented implementing the constitution, that's for
> sure.

Actually, that was put in for the future. I can see the day (not far in the
future, I would hope) when we have magistrates making appearances at events,
and what a spectacle to have a procession of lictors! Right now, it's a
nonesuch, and completely ceremonial, but it only really applies in real-life
situations where there are enough lictors, and doesn't really hurt anyone by
its inclusion.

> Other than lictors, most of what is here is good. Exception: in
function,
> all aediles are the same. You have plebeian aediles as empowered to
impose
> intercessio on curule aediles. If you want to go that route, please get
rid
> of the "curule" and "plebeian" tags for the aediles, and have one assembly
> elect them all. By the way, can anyone explain the distinction between
> aediles and aediles curules in ancient Rome? Did not the candidate with
the
> most votes become curule aedile, while those who won fewer votes became
> "plain" aediles?

Nope. The distinction is; plebeian aediles had to be plebeian, and curule
aediles (eventually) could be plebeian or patrician. Basically, the
distinction between plebeian and curule aediles is a way of ensuring that at
least two aediles will always be plebeian. Can you point me to a source for
the notion that plebeian aediles can't veto actions of curule aediles?

> Why such a fuss over curule aediles, you may ask? Well, in the elections,
> there was nothing for which a patrician could vote. We have, rightly, a
> Tribune of the Plebs; let's keep the patrician option for curule aediles
as
> it was in the old constitution, namely, that the curule aediles could be
> either patrician or plebeian. I'd further like to see only the curule
> aediles, not the plebeian aediles, empowered with intercessio.

Can you point to a source for that? I'm a fiend for sources (especially the
OCD). :-)

> On the other hand, if the tribunes must agree in order to impose
> intercessio, should not all magistrates have this burden as well? If the
> consuls want to naysay, let them agree between themselves first; if the
> praetors want to do it, let them do so as well. The power of intercessio
> made the Tribune of the Plebs perhaps the most powerful magistrates in the
> middle/late Republic. If we want to make a viable re-building of Roma's
> system, it seems to me that the tribunes should not be so castrated before
> the other magistrates.

The thing is, the tribunes' power of intercessio pretty much represents
their chief function. Other magistrates have defined functions, but the
tribunes are pretty much there to veto unconstitutional actions by other
magistrates. If we were to really extend the collegiality to other
magistrates, we'd have to insist on agreement of both magistrates for every
action they take. And that would just be unworkable. (I'd add that the
censors also have a collegial act; the implementation of notae.)

> Why the limit to two quaestors? Is it because of the bountiful new
offices
> to be generated (see below)?

Actually yes. The questors are now exclusively financial officers. Their
roll as "administrative assistants" has been taken over by the scribae.

> "The twenty-six". What for?

Just a title. There's not actually 26 of them.

> "Attendants". Their functions could be relegated to elected magistrates.
I
> 'm not kidding. We're not a huge organization, people. The interregnum,
> whatever caused it, was not the result of too few magistrates. Not by a
> longshot. It was lack of cooperation. We cannot legislate cooperation,
but
> we can have a streamlined constitution and organizational structure. As I
> see it, "the twenty-six", "attendants" and lictors are all just more
stuff,
> more titles for people to wear. Or do we want to have so many offices
that
> we can be totally sure that each and every one of us will have a title to
> put under our names when we submit messages to the list?

At least at this stage, I don't envision everyone appointing their own
scribae. Once again, I'm thinking of the longer term, when we really do have
a couple of thousand citizens, and will need all these offices. But to take
a recent example; it surely would have helped the censors to be able to
appoint their own assistants, rather than having to go begging to the Senate
to appoint a quaestor.

> V Sounds great, except for the lictors for provincial governors.
>
> VI How is the collegium pontificum formed? Perhaps it's early yet to
fill
> in the numbers of constituents to this body (1+14+12+6+2). In effect,
> wouldn't that mean that the collegium could not function without 18
members,
> because no majority of its membership yet exists?

Just as we can function without a governor of Mexico provincia, we can
function without the full compliment of members of the collegium pontificum.
Certain offices (like the Pontifex Maximus) are essential, but we don't need
to have the full staff of pontifices for the collegium to operate.

Thanks much for your input. This is exactly the sort of thoughtful analysis
that I was hoping to get by posting the proposed Constitution here!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	Re: CMM de novo publico iure
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:46:29 -0400

Salve,

> From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
>
> Germanicus, as
> one who still does not regret you having gotten me into this thing, I
strongly suggest you
> have someone edit that work. It is imposing in the work and effort you
obviously put into
> it. Give a copy to someone you trust and who shares your ideas (that is
not me) and give
> them a red correction pen and tell them to trim it. *_Too_ many_* words
makes for
> confusion.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's why I posted it here in the
first place. Take out that red pen, and use it NOW. NOW's the time to make
changes. Why wait to vote against something in the Senate when you had the
opportunity to change it before it ever came there?

I'll be holding off finishing up the Constitution for a day or two, to let
folks make suggestions.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	communis sententia?
From:	Steven Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:55:22 -0700

Avete Omnes,

What is ours to be, where is our center?

Are we larger than the issues surrounding a handful of cives amongst the
twelve score and more?

Again the heat rises. Please, Amicae, wait until the current situation is
resolved and then see if the Senate does the will of the People.

We will watch the watchmen and see that justice is done.

mea sententia - Venator

Subject:	Re: Senate Appointments
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:02:21 -0700

Salvete.

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Salvete!
>
> In the time since my initial post offering to appoint various individuals to
> the Senate, some have not seen fit to accept my offer, either for very valid
> reasons, because of apathy, or due to spite. To those who have not accepted
> the position either by informing me via private email, or by posting their
> Oath publically to the list, I say that the time has past and the offer is
> closed. (To those who have taken the time to decline, I thank you for your
> consideration, and fully accept and understand your reasons.)
>
> To those who have chosen to accept the responsibilities that go with
> membership in the Senate, I thank you on behalf of our oh-so-fragile
> Republic and bid you act with the wisdom, deliberation, and patience that an
> endeavor as awesome and as noble as ours demands.
>
> In service to the Republic,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Dictator

The fair and just way of activating a deadline is to notify the people who will be
effected by the deadline beforethe cut off date.

C. Aelius Ericius.

Subject:	What to do
From:	Daniel Dreesbach dreesbach@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:03:45 -0400 (EDT)

I am clueless as to how to operate here.

What are the purposes here?

Posting messages to this list and responding to such is not very
meaningful to me. Why do we do this? What is expected of everyone?
How do we operate within it. All everyone seems to do is to argue.

Do we the ancient Roman Technologies? Or do we operate within the
modern day era? Are we a simulation of the Roman era? Are we
reenacting ancienct Roman life?

G Iunius Germanus

Subject:	Cassius-Cincinnatus Debate, Part 1
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:05:38 EDT

Salvete,

My apologies for subjecting Nova Roma to yet more long debate on recent
events. Hopefully this discussion will be helpful to those still willing to
follow the details... and hopefully those tired of all this won't be too
upset at having to hit the 'delete' button one more time! ;)

Note: I've had to split this up into two posts, since my Email program
couldn't handle such a big chunk of text all at once. Happy snoring - er,
reading, all!

In a m--------g--------t--------/19/99 5:01:18 PM East--------Daylight Tim--------lt;a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
writes:

Cassius:
>I feel that I have no choice but to reply to the latest comments by L.
>Sergius Aust.

Cincinnatus:
? Hummm, where are they?

Cassius:
They were in with one of the "Cincinnatus must be restored!" threads. Might
have been one of the first "Re: Tyr" postings. If you've missed them they're
probably still in your Email system, since they're only a couple of days old.

>Scaevola:
>> My email to you was an expression of willingness to consider the
> possibility that I might have been wrong in this matter.
>
>Cassius:
>Fine. I'll take the time to write out what I know, but don't believe for a
>moment that it will change anything.

>Cincinnatus: I have faced the truth, You own the webpage. Or have you
turned it over to Germanicus? In any case It sould properly be administered
by Elected magistrates. Perhaps the elected Consules should pay the webpage
bill for their year, then they would have 'imperium' in deed as well as
name. I would have been happy to pay for it but you had your reason to keep
control, as we all found out.

Cassius:
Actually, I DIDN'T own the web page. Never have. When Cincinnatus and I
founded Nova Roma he was basically the owner, and I was co-billing contact
since we were sharing costs in the absence of a treasury. When he left Nova
Roma he agreed to switch the ownership of the domain name (www.novaroma.org)
to Nova Roma itself. That was duly done and I stayed on as billing contact...
I figured that paying for the site would be a worthwhile way to contribute
since our treasury funds have never yet been anything close to substantial.

When the Impeachment thing blew up, I was looking for a way to stop Nova Roma
from simply exploding. One Consul working to impeach the other, and both
Consuls, over the will of the Senate! THAT was one long, drawn-out slugfest
that I didn't want to even see, much less be a center contestant in. What I
found was that the central Internet registry company, (it's called InterNIC
or something, and I really don't know squat about it) hadn't taken
Germanicus' name off as owner, even though the request had been in for some
months to remove his name from the account. I called Germanicus, we talked
the situation over, and decided to try and give Nova Roma a new foundation.
Too many mistakes had obviously been made originally for a non-working system
to try and repair itself.

So far so good. There's a new Constitution in the works, (and many thanks to
the people who've made suggestions for it!) we now have a set of laws, and
the Tribes have been assigned. With some luck Nova Roma might just survive.

Once the Dictatorship is over, the process will begin yet *again* to transfer
the website into Senate ownership. (Anyone out there know how to make
InterNIC actually respond to a demand to change a domain name registration?)

>
Cassius:
>Firstly, I'll say one thing about the Committee. You were *not* wrong that
>there was a problem with the Tribes being assigned. Nobody was screaming
>about that louder than me, however.

Cincinnatus: What? Cassius you never brought up the subject. If you wanted
it done why didn't you do it? You were one of the Censores since the very
beginning.

Cassius:
Yow. I'm sorry, Cincinnatus, but *nobody* is going to believe that the
Censors and Consul didn't talk about the Tribes and Centuries, especially
with half the Citizens screaming about it for six straight months!

Our exchanges on the subject started right after the elections, when you
began to post disparaging remarks about the Censors on the List, and in the
live chat. You were saying things like 'If the Censors would only do their
JOBS, we'd have the tribes' and 'If the Censors would do their JOBS, things
would be fine'. (Note to all, these are NOT direct quotes from Cincinnatus...
his actual text was similar, but is no longer around for me to cut and paste
it here).

Neither Decius Iunius or I appreciated being trashed by the Senior Consul in
a public forum, and I wrote to you pretty much instantly after this started
happening. (Oh, by the way, you trashed several Citizens in the same manner
on other occasions, so hopefully it's understood that this sort of conduct
wasn't beyond you. Marius Fimbria, Flavia Iucunda, Lucius Cornelius Sulla and
a few others who got singled out will happily bear witness about those other
situations, I'm sure.)

Anyway, when I wrote to you I explained that I was busy setting up a new
branch office at work, AND Patricia and I were trying to get moved into our
new home... and I wasn't going to be able to do the Tribes anytime soon. It
was something I didn't know a thing about, and didn't have the time to
research. I gave you a choice of waiting a few *months* before I could give
it proper attention, or getting someone else to do it. You said that YOU
would take on the task yourself.

My involvement with the subject after that was trying to get you a "perfect"
Citizen's list, because you refused to work on the project with the older
list you had; and until every last Citizen was on the rolls, up to date with
a proper Roman name, etc. I did a LOT of screaming, particularly since I
couldn't understand why you couldn't set up a *system* with what you had and
just plug names into it later... and because part of the list you wanted
forwarded from Flavia Iucunda had gotten lost due to computer error and
needed to be completely redone. This process dragged out for months before it
ended up in my lap "officially" yet again.

Cassius:
>Germanicus was originally going to be the person that set up the Tribes and
>Centuries. Sadly, he was not able to finish during the first year, and in
>fact left Nova Roma for a time.

> Cincinnatus: Yes, and he even went as far as renouncing citizenship.

Cassius:
Which he regretted almost immediately, since he'd left over a personal
religious crisis that had nothing at all to do with Roman civilization as a
whole. I was pleased to reinstate him... and am more glad that I did it now
than ever.

>
Cassius:
>When my Co-Consul (Germanicus) left NR was completely in an uproar. It
took MONTHS to get everything calmed down. After that the roller-coaster ride
>didn't let up in the least...

>Cincinnatus: Months? Metellus was appointed the Consul, Palladius was
appointed Censor and I was given a seat in the Senate all in a matter of
days. The "uproar" was caused by Germanicus returning as suddenly as he
left, many citizens questioned his motives.

Cassius:
Yes, we were able to scrabble around and fill the empty positions within a
couple of days. That doesn't mean that the furor itself died down! People
were horribly shaken and Nova Roma did *not* just keep running like nothing
had happened. The furor over the issue only continued when Germanicus was
able to sort out the issues he'd left under, and realized that he deeply
regretted his impulsive move to leave Nova Roma completely.

>
Cassius:
>Finally, the elections were over. In January I was incredibly busy at work,
>as we were opening up a new building for the family company and moving
>ourselves into it. I was working something like 70 hour weeks for a couple
of months.

> CIncinnatus: This is no ones fault, if you could not keep up with the duties
of the office you should have stepped down and put the Republic first. You
chose to keep the title and position but without doing the job. Meanwhile,
we're all expected to wait on your highness.

Cassius:
So if a magistrate has a temporary schedule problem they are expected to step
down from office? That's going to be sore news to all the Citizens who have
jobs and commitments in the world *outside* Nova Roma. It would have been
absurd to resign from a five-year post because I was going to be busy with
work/moving for two months... especially since I was still participating and
able to keep up with most of the Censorial duties such as answering inquiries
and processing Citizens. (Well, when the online application was working,
anyhow! That thing has gone down several times, and is in fact not working
right NOW I believe. Thank the Gods it's no longer my responsibility!)

>
Cassius:
>At this point, still absorbed at work, I informed Consul Cincinnatus that I
>was simply unable to form the tribes. In no uncertain terms I made it clear
>that I simply didn't know anything *about* them... and that it'd probably
two
>or three months of being in my new job before I'd have the time to do the
>research and set them up properly. I told him that he'd have to get the
>Senate to find someone to figure out the tribal system and get the Citizens
>assigned into it if he wanted it done before then.

>Cincinnatus: This sounds like a resignation, without resigning. I was not
given the citizens list for Months and even then it was incomplete and out
of date. Flavia Claudia sent it to me in April. She then would send updates
as she got them, rarely.

Cassius:
Stating clearly that you can't do a portion of a job isn't resigning - it's
the reasonable thing to do if you can't meet people's expectations of you in
a certain situation.

As far as the Citizens list, you had a copy that was a little less than two
months out of date when you said you'd do the Tribes. Instead, you refused to
work with that copy, and demanded that you have ALL Citizens before even
starting the task. Since information had been lost and a bunch of work had to
be re-done, I just couldn't get you what you wanted. I'm still not sure why
you couldn't just come up with a system that Citizens could have been plugged
into as we recovered their data. You swore you understood the tribes thing...
I STILL don't know much about it.

>
Cassius:
>It was then, in January I believe, that Cincinnatus absolved me of the work
>of the tribes, and told me he'd set up the system himself.

> Cincinnatus: It is not my place to "absolve" the Censores of any work.
I said I would make up the Tribes and submit them to the Censores. It is
still Palladius' and your responsibility, but you didn't even take the time
to send me anything to help until just before Roman Days.

Cassius:
Excuse me?? A magistrate informs his superior that he can't do a certain
project because of time/knowledge constraints, and it's not the superior's
job to do something about the situation?? I asked you to get someone else to
do the job, you said you'd do it yourself. As far as I'm concerned that's
about as absolved as anyone can get.

As far as sending you stuff only just before Roman Days, you're mixing up two
different situations. By April, Decius Iunius and myself had given up on you
and asked for other assistance with the Tribes. That's when Tullius
Callidius, Sulla and Graecus, and Germanicus all submitted their own plans
for the tribes. We spent the rest of the time before the Impeachment trying
to sort out all the mess. The stuff that got forwarded to you right before
April was the Citizen's List itself - Flavia Claudia was too busy to continue
keeping the list and you had the Excel program that would run the list. Since
neither Palladius or myself knew how to work the blasted program, we were
pretty stuck. (Um, thanks for your assistance with THAT anyway. That part of
things went pretty well, considering!)

Cassius:
Decius Iunius had
>also plead off the project, also on the grounds that he wasn't particularly
>knowledgeable and had no ideas for how to do it. Did Cincinnatus then form
a
>Committee to work on the project? No..

> CIncinnatus: Once again, the Centuries and Tribes are the Job of the
Censores. I said I would help, I would make up a list of them for your
approval, but I did not receive any information from you (Cassius) until the
week before Roman Days.

Cassius:
Dude, I flatly refused to do the Tribes project on the grounds that I
wouldn't be able to properly research it for a few months. You agreed to do
the job when I asked that it be given to someone else. If you had no
intention of doing the Tribes EITHER, you should have given the problem over
to the Senate - so that they could assign people to assist with that one
project. I can't see why you were so hot to have a "web team" rather than
one Webmaster for the Nova Roma site... but then seem to be insisting that
the two Censors should have done their job with no possibility of outside
help even if they needed and asked for it.

>
Cassius:
>Unfortunately, he didn't. January ended, and February passed, then March!
>People were SCREAMING for the tribes, and Cincinnatus was still balking,
>saying that he couldn't even come up with a system for the tribes until he
>had an absolutely complete Citizen's list.

>Cincinnatus: I never Got Any LIST from you or Palladius, I finally got a
list from Flavia Claudia that was MONTHS out of date! How could I do
anything without a list of citizens? Also the Gens page on the site had not
been updated in months either. Citizens who have been members since last
year know how the site was not maintained of a few months.

Cassius:
You received a list from Flavia Claudia IMMEDIATELY after saying you'd do the
Tribes. It was up to date except for about two month's worth of new names
that had been forwarded instead to Flavia Iucunda, who had volunteered to
help keep the Citizens' list. What you were demanding was the new, completely
up to date list from Flavia Iucunda. Unfortunately, she lost the new data
while trying to save the new Citizens as a "batch file" to the Excel list,
rather than entering each new Citizen one at a time. When *that* happened,
nobody had a new and updated list to send to you! You and I discussed this
situation more than once, and I repeatedly asked you to just do the tribes
with the older list you had. The new folks could always be added in later as
Decius Iunius and I recovered the lost files. You refused and left us
scrabbling to try and re-create the "perfect" list for you.

>
Cassius:
>Some background info here... The Citizens list is done in Microsoft Excel.
>Neither Decius or I had that software or knew how to use it. At the time
>Flavia Iucunda was then keeping the Citizens List officially ...

Cincinnatus: Once again, it's somebody else's fault.

Cassius:
Yes, that's right, I'm just blaming other people for my mistakes. It's my own
fault that I didn't run right out and buy a $500 copy of Microsoft Excel so
that I could keep the Citizens' database myself, and then spend the time
necessary to learn how to use a totally new program. (All while I was still
involved in the work project and moving into the new house of course.) Shame
on me!! Why, I was grossly neglecting my office and derelict in my duties,
that's what I was!

The amazing thing is that you yourself was publicly blaming Flavia Iucunda
for not forwarding the Citizens' list to you at that time. You were going
into the live chatroom and completely trashing her over it. The Senior Consul
directly abusing a Citizen. About five people almost resigned their
Citizenship over THAT little episode... Flavia Iucunda was in tears over it.
Yeah, I know, you're just a plain-talking Navy welder type who's not good
with people...

************* End Part 1 **********************

Subject:	Re: CMM de novo publico iure
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:44:18 -0700

My opinion is to keep the original Constitution of Nova Roma and Amend it.
I know how that idea will go over. But that is my belief. What I see in the proposed
constitution is an engine that will blow up before too long. Mostly from parts we will not
catch. We know the parts that need fixing in the current Constitution, fix them. Have the
Senate and the People of Nova Roma take a part in it. Too chaotic? Hey, popular
governments are. That is why they are not for all peoples. But it was the ancient Romans
who laid down much of the ground work for the future that we live in.

I waste my breath.

C. Aelius Ericius.

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 4/6 about Praetors-LICTORS
From:	JimmyG1970@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:51:55 EDT

Salve omnes!

I know I am late in the debate here but pressing matters had to be attended
too. My comment is this: was not the age of the pater/materfamilas 18 in
ancinet Rome? I think that we should consider what our precedessors have done
before us and then consider if this is worthwhile to remain as the ancients
would have it or devise an age requirement more suitable to our times.

Subject:	Re: CMM de novo publico iure
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:57:44 -0700

Will the "actions of the Dictator" (from the Const.) be voted on under the current
constitution or the proposed constitution? Who will be voted to approve or disapprove the
actions of the Dictator? In the current constitution it is "the Senate and Citizens of
Nova Roma", under the proposed constitution it is "subject to final confirmation by the
Senate" alone.

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> I'll be holding off finishing up the Constitution for a day or two, to let
> folks make suggestions.
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Dictator

Will the approval be en bloc, the whole bundle, or each action in its own lights? This
question also applies to the laws you have proposed. Will the Senate and People of Nova
Roma be allowed to vote on each one separately?

And who is the Senate that will vote on this? Who made the deadline for the new Senate?
I don't think the list on the website is complete, L. Cornelius Sulla is not on it.

Be well.
C. Aelius Ericius.

Subject:	Re: Proposed New Constitution: 2/6 Question
From:	JimmyG1970@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:59:53 EDT

Salve!

Once again my brother is has hit the nail on the head as the say. This is
almost exactly the way that they would have this. It's a form a patronage
and it is definetly a good idea.


Gaius Severus Marius

Subject:	Re: CMM de novo publico iure
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:37:42 EDT

Salvete Merullus and Germanicus,

Just a point of clarification, please. According to Colleen McCullough's
glossaries, curule magistrates were those holding imperium. Curule
aediles were senior magistrates, holding imperium, while plebian aediles
were not and did not.

Is this in accord with others' understanding? Is this how we are using
"curule" in Nova Roma?

Admittedly, Ms. McCullough may not be the world's foremost scholar on
Rome, but she's where much of my skimpy knowledge of the intricacies of
Roman government came from.

Thanks,

L. Sergius Aust.


aut amat aut odit mulier: nihil est tertium.

(A woman either loves or hates: there is no third possibility.)

Publilius Syrus