Subject:	Re: Re: Cassius-Cincinnatus Debate, Part 2
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:10:31 EDT

Salve Cassius,

So now all of this debate is because _I_ have accused you of something
and insulted your personal honor? That's too much pure BS to even deserve
comment.

I notice that whenever anyone raises a point of difference here, they're
likely to be told "Who are you, anyway? Have you held any offices or done
anything important?" Nice try, but it doesn't wash. I volunteered several
times to help where I might be of assistance, and never got a response,
so don't even try to come back at me with that kind of nonsense.

As to your personal honor, I have nothing against you personally, and in
fact don't know anything about you other than what you have posted. And
that speaks for itself.

If you had spent any time on this list, you would have encountered me
before. No further comment on that.

If this is a "debate" then I'm not going to continue it either here or in
private. As I said before, enough has been revealed for all to form their
own opinions as to what happened and who caused it to happen. Obviously
there will be as many of those opinions as there are participants here.
Nobody's opinions are likely to be changed, and none of them is really
too important in relation to the future. If you want to continue working
to rehabilitate your reputation, more power to you! Aside from the need
to correct the wrong done to Cincinnatus, I see nothing more to be said
on this subject.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust.


re vera, cara mea, mea nil refert.

(Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.)

Subject:	Cassius-Cincinnatus Debate 3
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:17:59 EDT

In a m--------g--------t--------/20/99 9:09:12 PM East--------Daylight Tim--------lt;a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
writes:

> Cincinnatus: I know some people are tired of this debate, but perhaps
Cassius and I should continue our debate and clear the air. While we have
disagreed strongly we have also been civilized.

Cassius: I'm sure everybody is completely tired of this now, but I suppose
this DOES have to be done. Just like the debates of old times, yes?

Cassius:
>Note: I've had to split this up into two posts...

Cincinnatus: I put them back together. Cassius, you really ought to ditch
AOL it has been a constant source of frustration for you.

Cassius: I've got both Netscape and Internet Explorer at work, but they're
really no better. They're just a constant source of *different* frustrations!

>Cassius:
>Actually, I DIDN'T own the web page. Never have. When Cincinnatus and I
>founded Nova Roma he was basically the owner, <SNIP>I called Germanicus, we
talked the situation over, and decided to try and give Nova Roma a new
foundation. Too many mistakes had obviously been made originally for a
non-working system to try and repair itself.

> Cincinnatus: So you made the decision to just start over regardless of
what anyone else had to say. It would have worked if we could have just put
the citizens into the Comitiae. Then sent proposals to them to vote on.

Cassius: I can't help but think that just starting over was a preferable
course of action to a long drawn-out Civil War, complete with an Impeachment
and a trial, which would have lasted for months. Even if the Comitiae had
been formed it wouldn't have solved all the existing problems with the
Senate, Constitution, lack of laws, etc. Especially with all the bad feelings
that had been brought up. It would have been impossible for people to work
together without some sort of clean slate and new basis to proceed from.

Cassius:
>Our exchanges on the subject started right after the elections, when you
>began to post disparaging remarks about the Censors on the List, and in the
>live chat. You were saying things like 'If the Censors would only do their
>JOBS, we'd have the tribes' and 'If the Censors would do their JOBS, things
>would be fine'. (Note to all, these are NOT direct quotes from
Cincinnatus...his actual text was similar, but is no longer around for me to
cut and
paste it here).

>Cincinnatus: Maybe because they weren't ever posted. But even if I did post
something similar, how are they disparaging?

Cassius: If you want subordinates to do something, you deal with them
directly, or raise the issue in *official* channels. Trying to shame them
into it by making them look bad in front of others publicly is no way to
achieve anything. In the time it took you to raise the issue with the
Citizens, you could have asked for volunteers to DO the project if the
Censors were unable.

Cassius:
>Neither Decius Iunius or I appreciated being trashed by the Senior Consul
in a public forum, and I wrote to you pretty much instantly after this
started
>happening.

> Cincinnatus: You mean like you are trying to trash me now? IF I ever said
anything to anybody, I was the truth. I would like to hear what they have to
say. I wrote Flavia Iucundia privately after I had found out that she had
been sick. I never mentioned her involvement in the chatroom as most all of
us stopped using the thing after Sulla and Nocturnia had turned into their
hangout. You ought to check your sources.

Cassius: I think you may be mixing issues up here. I was saying that I wrote
to you right after you made public comments about the Censors jobs - and
asked for assistance on the Tribes project since I was unable to complete it.
The situations with Flavia Iucunda, et al hadn't even happened yet.

Cassius
>Anyway, when I wrote to you I explained that I was busy setting up a new
>branch office at work, AND Patricia and I were trying to get moved into our
>new home...

>CIncinnatus: This is why I left the subject alone in Jan. Feb. and March But
it
seems that either way nothing was getting done.

Cassius: By that time I'd asked for assistance, and you said you would do the
tribes since I wouldn't be able to for quite some time. After agreeing to do
this, and knowing that I wasn't working on the project at all... you
intentionally left the subject alone?

>
Cassius:
>My involvement with the subject after that was trying to get you a
"perfect" Citizen's list, because you refused to work on the project with
the older
>list you had;

> Cincinnatus: You keep using these "quote" marks when did I ever say
perfect? there are still may small errors throughout in the citizens list.

Cassius: You stated that you wouldn't work with the Citizen's list you had,
and demanded a completely updated list from Flavia Iucunda. Since information
had been deleted, there was no way to get you such a list in a reasonable
amount of time. You had the best there was at that point - but wouldn't use
it to create even a basic outline of how the tribes should be assigned. I use
the word "perfect" to illustrate the fact that you refused to work with the
only thing available. At this point the Censors were in worse shape than
ever... we now had to re-create two months of lost data!

(merciful amputatio of fully debated text)

> >
>Cassius:
>So if a magistrate has a temporary schedule problem they are expected to
step down from office?

>Cincinnatus: Temporary is one thing, 2 months another, but we still have no
Comitiae after nearly a year and a half. Plus there are two of you, what was
Palladius doing during this time? Couldn't he have done something during this
time?

Cassius: Two months out of a five year term of service IS a temporary thing.
What is someone has to be away from Nova Roma for say, life saving surgery?
Should they be stripped of all offices rather than having some duties get
temporarily reassigned?

>Cassius:
>Stating clearly that you can't do a portion of a job isn't resigning
-snip-As far as the Citizens list, you had a copy that was a little less than
two months out of date when you said you'd do the Tribes.

> Cincinnatus: No, more like four or five months. The thing had not been
worked on since Nov and I didn't get a copy until April.

Cassius:
What Flavia Claudia sent to you was a copy of the Citizen's list in late
January... which didn't have the December and January Citizens added to it.
Flavia Claudia had dropped the job of list keeping in December, and Flavia
Iucunda had taken up the job, but not forward the very latest copy of the
list to you. You wanted the December and January Citizens... we couldn't get
them for you quickly after they got deleted.

>Cassius:
>Excuse me?? A magistrate informs his superior that he can't do a certain
>project because of time/knowledge constraints, and it's not the superior's
>job to do something about the situation?

Cincinnatus: How convenent to acknowledge this chain of command now. I was
doing something about it, but got thrown out for it.

Cassius:
Planning to remove your Co-Consul from office, and me as Pontifex Maximus
(among other things) isn't a positive or productive way of "doing something
about it".

Cassius:
">Dude, I flatly refused to do the Tribes project on the grounds that I
wouldn't be able to properly research it for a few months."

Cincinnatus:
Like you said you refused to do it because you didn't know anything about
it.

Cassius:
That's right. And amazingly enough, not being well versed in the Roman tribes
is NOT a crime. I didn't become Censor originally to be the person who set up
the Tribes and Comitia. Germanicus was going to do that. I took the position
of Censor because I could write well, was reasonably good with people, and
had the patience to answer letters of inquiry, help people with problems, and
sort out information. When Germanicus wasn't allowed to continue the project
after returning to Nova Roma I was completely stuck. I couldn't do that one
job, and didn't have time to learn how. That's why I asked for assistance.

>
Cassius:
>As far as sending you stuff only just before Roman Days, you're mixing up
two different situations. By April, Decius Iunius and myself had given up on
you and asked for other assistance with the Tribes. <SNIP> (Um, thanks for
your
assistance with THAT anyway. That part of things went pretty well,
considering!)

Cincinnatus: Yes, it was beggining to work which is one reason I was annoyed
that when we met at Roman Days you decided to go with a different plan after
I had done the work. Then after you get back I start hearing about
more delays. Hey, I am not the only one who was/is upset at the way things
weren't happining.

Cassius: Your assisting with the Citizen's list during the months of May and
June, (because Flavia Claudia abruptly resigned from the job and because you
had the Excel database program) was very helpful and much appreciated. As far
as your having the tribes done, there was never any kind of full write up,
nor did you bring any kind of written report besides those Citizen's List
fields to Roman Days. We ALL new that time had run out - so I decided to go
with the quickest and simplest plain as a last ditch effort to get the Tribes
done. If you'd been working with us instead of trying to get people sign on
to the Impeachment Committee, it probably would have worked out.

>Cassius:
>Dude, I flatly refused to do the Tribes project on the grounds that I
>wouldn't be able to properly research it for a few months.

Cincinnatus: There it is. You are Censor but you won't do the job. That sums
up the situtation.

Cassius: No, I WAS Censor, but have quit that time destroying, difficult and
totally thankless job. I won't be the only Censor to quit either, unless
that position gets redistributed among a staff of people who can absorb some
of the duties.

>Cassius:
>You received a list from Flavia Claudia IMMEDIATELY after saying you'd do
the Tribes

> Cincinnatus: I offered to do the Tribes in December and I didn't get
anything until April, and it was that far out of date.

Cassius:
What about the Citizen's list Flavia Claudia sent to you in January? Sure,
she finally gave you a completely up to date one in April, but you'd had the
older version for a long time by then.

>Cassius:>
>The amazing thing is that you yourself was publicly blaming Flavia Iucunda
>for not forwarding the Citizens' list to you at that time. You were going
>into the live chatroom and completely trashing her over it. The Senior
Consul directly abusing a Citizen. About five people almost resigned their
>Citizenship over THAT little episode... Flavia Iucunda was in tears over
it. Yeah, I know, you're just a plain-talking Navy welder type who's not good
>with people...

Cincinnatus: I think you better check your sources. I never did anything of
the sort! Flavia Iucundia and I have always been on pleasant terms and we
still are. She sent me a photo she took while at Roman Days and I have
thanked her for it. As far as being "plain-talking" at least I'm not making
things up.

Cassius:
Well, at least that is something that can be verified outside our "Did - Did
not!" session! Either Flavia Iucunda will read this and make some sort of
statement, or citizens can Email her privately to inquire. I'm sure she did
make up with you eventually - she's quite nice and everything got hashed out
at Roman Days.

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------;
My apologies for having to post this in two parts. It was too long for my
Email program to send in one piece:

>Cincinnatus: Really Cassius, get rid of AOL :-)

Cassius:
Actually, the solution is to have shorter debates! ;) If an Email is too long
for a program to send, it's too long for people to wade through.

(Another merciful amputatio)

Cassius:
That happens to be completely false. Both of you wanted to hang Sulla -

>Cincinnatus: Nope, we didn't want to do to him what was done to me. The
only mention of exile was made by you, I don't know where you got it from.

Cassius: Since I was supporting Sulla, and saying it was no big deal, I can't
imagine why I would introduced the subject of exile out of the blue. It would
have damaged the arguments I was making. I believe the talk had been about
"getting rid of Sulla"... same thing.

Cassius:
everybody else thought it just wasn't that big an issue. Both
>Germanicus and Flavia Claudia resigned, then came back...

> Cincinnatus: That is because Sulla had hacked into the Senate and we needed
to find a new place for the Senate to meet.

Cassius:
All that happened over arguments raised during the attempt to punish Sulla,
not over having to find a new Senate site.

Cassius:
As I recall, a new place was set up within a couple of days. However, having
a place to meet didn't solve all the hurt feelings from the arguments that
had taken place over the issue. The Senate just plain wouldn't talk with
itself anymore.

>Cincinnatus: Yes Patricia found a nice site called eGroups.com but no one
would use it. I think the registration format threw most people off, but I
thought it was a great site for us.

Cassius:
The E-groups site was a little hard to figure out... but the reason nobody
was talking was that everyone was pissed at one another.

> Cincinnatus: Yes, this seems to be the popular answer, Quit.
"Winners never quit and quitters never win."

> Cassius:
OH! I always thought that was QUILTERS! One of the many reasons I never took
up sewing in fact. NOW you tell me!

> Cincinnatus: That's funny, but many people don't like this quitting answer
to a problem. I'm glad you haven't done it because once one quits there is no
hope.

Cassius:
You don't have to tell ME about this! Most of my friends quit Nova Roma over
this thing... It's easy to lose hope when the people you trust decide to
walk away and give up something important as a lost cause.

>Finally, Cincinnatus was able to force through the ridiculous reprimand for
>Sulla, and then started to propose new business.

> CIncinnatus: You were the only one to vote against it, After you told us
you
supported a reprimand. I also posted Sulla's tax proposal and the propsal
for the Sodalitas Pro Infantia to the Senate and took the heat for those not
being accepted, like I was Dictator and I could just say "yea, sure
whatever".

Cassius:
I NEVER supported a reprimand for Sulla. You're just plain remembering
wrongly here...

Cincinnatus: Don't remember this?

Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: Hacking into the Senate

>Salvete Senatores, Tribunes, et Quaestor,
>
>It seems I may have been a bit mistaken with my earlier post. I have indeed
>thought that this situation and all it's postings were leading up to a
public trial and (and subsequent expulsion) of Sulla. If I've been mistaken,
I
>sincerely apologize! I will happily support a fairly restrained PUBLIC
notice from the Senate, saying that we frown on Sulla's actions, and won't
even
raise an objection if a strong PRIVATE warning is added to that, saying that
the
>next time he tries to "skim" through a legal loophole it will go much worse
>for him. (As far as I can recall, though, "removing" Sulla has been a topic
of all private correspondence on the subject... so I figured that this
argument was more of the same.) I'll answer some of the particular dialogue
below,but again I have no objection of the Senate showing displeasure without
causing an incredible legal hassle.

Cassius:
Hey, that's great! Where'd you get that? Did you save it personally, or did
the old Senate archives get preserved somehow? I'd just LOVE to get my hands
on the rest!

Anyway, the above info is helpful as far as I'm concerned. It looks like I
probably WAS the first person to use the *word* exile... but terms like "get
rid of Sulla" were being used in private Emails so I believed that was really
being talked about. Also, in the letter above, I'm saying that I'd support a
public statement that the Senate considered the board off limits, and that
there would be consequences if it was done again. My whole argument was that
there shouldn't be a "reprimand" for Sulla, because nobody had ever stated
that there would be punishment for visiting the Senate board. I was
suggesting we should state a public position, not give a reprimand. There was
a big difference between the Senate showing displeasure and assigning some
sort of official punishment.

> Cincinnatus: No one ever mentioned throwing Sulla out that I saw. We just
needed to do something versus doing nothing.

Cassius:
You can see in that old letter that I've referenced conversations that
concerned throwing Sulla out of Nova Roma. Perhaps you didn't choose the best
letter to post here...

(yet another merciful amputatio of info containing no new discussion)

Cassius:
Oh, whatever. The proposition that came to me would have demanded constant
attention...
>

> CIncinnatus: Well 'constant' maybe a relative term, certianly a few hours a
week by whichever Censor was on "duty".

Cassius:
LOL! A few hours a week... the reason Flavia Claudia resigned from doing the
Citizens' list was because even doing THAT small aspect of the job was more
than a person could keep up with.

Cassius:
>I explained to Cincinnatus that NOBODY could maintain such a system.

>Cincinnatus: You never "took the job back", because it was always yours. I
only offered to help, but was only given infromation from you the week prior
to Roman Days. Nice bag job, you had over a year to do it and didn't, yet
you give me less that a week. Then when we meet you change your mind and
decide to go with Palladius' plan.

Cassius:
Sorry, Cincinnatus, but I'm the one accusing you of pulling a bag job. I
stated that I couldn't do the Tribes project and you took responsibility for
it. You didn't do it for four months,...

> Cincinanatus: Once again, I offered to help by make a propsal in December
and I didn't get ANYTHING in the way of information until April and that was
so far out of date as to be useless.
Garbage in, garbage out. I don't do work like that.

Cassius:
Yet again, you received a copy of the Citizens List in January... that didn't
have the December or January applications entered into it. The tribes could
have been created from that. You instead Emailed Decius Iunius and myself and
stated that you wanted to add ALL citizens to it before even starting. Don't
you recall the Emails I sent saying that it was impossible to get a
completely up to date list anyway, since new Citizens get added every day?
The important thing was a tribe SYSTEM, which any number of later additions
could be plugged into.

>
Cassius:
I'm not going to say much since Callidius isn't here to defend himself. I
WILL say that he pushed his plan to the point of encouraging people create
disturbances on the list, etc...

> Cincinnatus: I never saw any disturbances caused by the Tullii. I was sorry
to see them go.

Cassius:
I was sorry to see them go as well, but that doesn't mean Callidius hadn't
encouraged people to demonstrate in the forum (by that I mean scream on the
Internet list) that his plan should be adopted right away. By then his plan
wasn't the only one on the table, and we were duty bound to give everyone's
info an evaluation...

(amputatio)

Cincinnatus: This was fixed by Patricia and in the meantime when people
asked they were told to print up a application and send it in snail mail.
That was always an option and should be the one of choice.

Cassius:
That kind of thing is a pretty poor fix.

Cincinnatus: Germanicus and I had both agreed that a mail in application was
better anyway. Like he said initially, if people can be bothered to print up
a form, fill it out and mail it in, then they aren't that interested in the
first place. Nova Roma booklets are handed out a events with an application
on the back to be sent that way. I have some here and they are very nicely
done.

Cassius:
People still have the option of making applications by Snail mail. However,
web based applications are SO much easier to deal with! Info sent by Email
can be added into the Citizen's database directly rather than needing to be
retyped, etc. I just can't see deliberately limiting access to Nova Roma...
especially since that puts overseas applicants into the position of having to
spend far too much money and wait too long for Citizenship.

Cassius:
What you brought to Roman Days was a partial printout of the Citizen's list
-

> Cincinnatus: No I had more than that, but the work never got any further.

Cassius:
Maybe you DID have more! All I ever saw was that partial printout of the
selected fields from the Citizen's list. The reason WHY none of the work got
any farther at Roman Days wasn't because Decius Iunius and I were wanting to
go with Sulla and Graecus' plan. It was because we didn't get a Senate quorum
to show up, and had only one Censor present. And, it's all moot anyway since
the big work being done at that point was the Impeachment process.
>
Cassius:
Again, what you did was print out some limited fields from the Citizens'
list
the night before. That was NOT a complete plan for the Tribes.

>CIncinnatus: I had a whole notebook of stuff we never looked at, You had
made up your mind to do it using Palladius' plan beforehand. I knew what his
plan was before Roman Days because he had told me about it.

Cassius:
If the Senate quorum had been present, and Decius Iunius could have attended,
there certainly would have been more discussion. As it was we recognized we
couldn't do anything then, and pretty much had to leave things.

> Cassius:
> I sat down with everyone, , whether
they were done right or not. A bit of an anticlimax after all the fuss,
really!

> Cincinnatus: Yes, when the subject came up during the meeting you simply
said that you and Palladius would do it by the formula that Palladius had
suggested. So, since you and he were the Censores it is your job anyway,
THAT was the end of the discussion! Don't say I didn't have my plan.

Cassius:
Since up to that point we'd never received any assistance with the Tribes,
and people were still insisting that we and only we could do the job, we
proceeded to DO it. By then we'd had time to make at least *some* headway,
and could at least approach the task. You can't say that we weren't doing our
job AND did the job too fast for you to be able to present your idea...

Cassius:
"Cincinnatus, you DIDN'T have your...!" Oh, right. Sorry. Anyway, your...
er, "printed material" wasn't quite complete enough to be a better quick
solution than the plan we'd had from Sulla and Graecus.

> Cincinnatus: I never saw these other plans.

Cassius:
You saw Callidius plan, because he posted it to the Senate. Same with
Germanicus' plan. I'm not sure if Sulla's plan was posted to the Senate also,
or just sent to us Censors. By then I was suddenly getting bombarded with so
much Tribe stuff that I was buried under the mountains of correspondence.

Cassius:
In fact, we'd have just gone with that one earlier to get the situation
over and done with, but Callidius had sworn he'd veto it as Tribune of the
Plebs, because he wanted HIS idea put through. Callidius had only resigned
his Citizenship a few days before, making the choice possible.

Cincinnatus: Callidius never expressed any such thing as a veto to me, but
he had sent his proposal to the Senate.

Cassius:
I believe he publicly declared his veto intent in the live chat. He may not
have Emailed it to you directly.

(amputatio)

> Cassius:
> A couple of small things. I had trouble getting online because AOL was
failing for a couple of days.

> Cincinnatus: AOL again, humm, you ought to get rid of it.

Cassius:
I just couldn't get a connection to stay up for more than thirty seconds.
Actually, I wasn't sure if THAT problem was AOL or our local Internet
service, CelticWeb. Those guys are the worst, but none of the Internet
services here in Maine are any good. I was far better off in that respect
when I lived closer to Boston, where things are civilized.

> Cassius:
>Since Nova Roma was in imminent danger of having one Consul Impeach the
other, and remove both Censors against the will of the Senate, it was
considered to be a time of Emergency. Since there was a legal Senate quorum
action was taken immediately.

>Cincinnatus: Palladius was Consul and Censor. Nothing was considered
against him as Consul. Only as Censor, as these were the things that were not
being done.

Cassius:
Therein lies the other "big lie" about the Committee's intent. Decius Iunius
and myself were up for Impeachment on ALL aspects of our involvement with
Nova Roma. He was being impeached as Censor, Consul, Senator and Pontiff. I
was being Impeached as Censor, Senator, Praetor, and Pontifex Maximus. The
Committee says that only the Impeachments as Censors were to be pursued "at
that time"... the other impeachments were to be held over our heads so that
we would submit.

Firstly, you don't write up seven pages of Impeachment articles, and work to
sign on every magistrate below Senator onto such an attempt without going all
the way. Secondly, if that really WAS the idea, it was a stupid one. Who on
earth would sit back and allow their name to be dragged through the mud with
so many articles of Impeachment, (some apparently "suspended" for the moment)
without fighting to totally clear their good name? Who do YOU know that would
just roll over and let their reputation be ruined completely?

Look at yourself, Cincinnatus. You have been offered the opportunity to
return as a Citizen, Patrician, Senator and Priest. Only the Consulship is
being denied you... and that only because the past election was declared
invalid and new elections are being held. Your Dignitas really hasn't been
ruined, yet you STILL won't settle for anything less than *full*
reinstatement!! Don't tell me that you would have let others bring
"official" criminal charges against you for *every* aspect of your
involvement... and willingly accept some of them in return for others being
suspended? You won't stand for far less than that now!

Cassius:
Decius Iunius Palladius, Consul, convened the Senate. He had the imperium.

Cincinnatus: And I have Imperium and the Veto, so I vetoed it. But you all
did what you wanted anyway. I was elected Consul and if any of you bother to
read the Constitution you will see that I can veto the actions of the other
Consul. I vetoed this. Thus Germanicus is an upsurper, but you own the
website. Hey, I could have made all kinds of changes too, but I was working
within the system such as it is.

Cassius:
You lost the Veto power the moment the Dictator was legally voted in by a
quorum of the Senate. THAT is incontrovertible. You tried to impose a
Consular veto on a legal Dictator, and that doesn't work. Rock beats
scissors.

Cassius:
It is not illegal to "discuss" the conduct of magistrates. I suppose,
strictly speaking, it wasn't ILLEGAL to secretly meet with Citizens...
Cincinnatus, there were MANY possible ways to solve the Tribes situation,
most of them positive. You could have been a real hero...

CIncinnatus: Look if I though I would have had the support you have given to
Germanicus, I would have been gald to, but every time I tried to do anything
I was getting minimal support or waffling.

Cassius:
The entire government was dysfunctional... a lot of that really isn't your
fault. But going for the throat still wasn't your best option. If you'd put
out a call for volunteers on the list, you'd have surely gotten response.
Many of the people who are making such valuable contributions to the new
Constitution were around then, and probably would have been invaluable help
in creating the tribes. You didn't have to prosecute anybody as criminals,
breaking up the Consulate and the Senate in the process.

(amputatio of old re-posted text not commented on)

Cassius:
At this point, I almost wish that were true.

Cincinnatus: Well the actions you all have taken speak for themselves.

Cassius:
So do your own actions. At least ours have some hope of positive result... a
more complete Constitution and Laws which the Citizens themselves have a hand
in creating, as well as processes for dealing with complaints and problems.
Your alternative of a several month long Civil war encompassing an
Impeachment process, legal trial and forced breakup of the Consulate and
Senate would have only left Nova Roma completely dead.

>
>Cincinnatus: The tribes are on the website? When was this announced and
where are they? Let's see them.

Cassius:
I thought they were up on the website! Germanicus was forwarding the
document
around...

Cincinnatus: Never saw any post of a list of who is in which tribe. I did
see a list of proposed names of tribes.

Cassius:
Can someone forward this thing to Cincinnatus? It's late and I'm NOT going to
go digging in old Emails for it tonight.

(amputatio)

Cassius:
I thought it was amazing that your
office should be considered sacred, but Decius Iunius' Consulship should be
totally expendable.

Cincinnatus: Palladius is both Censor and Consul, only the office of CENSOR
was under consideration. But that is just another detail that people are
quick to overlook. Like most thing people believe what they want.

Cassius:
Articles of Impeachment were drawn up for all offices held by Decius Iunius -
Censor, Consul, Senator and Pontiff. You say you were only going to actively
pursue the Impeachment for his Censor position, and would 'suspend' the
others unless he resisted. However, there's no guarantee that the process
WOULD have actually stopped there... the Committee had already shown itself
to be working into things by degree. It asked people if they'd support an
open letter, and when they signed on to THAT idea, they'd then find that
things were actually more involved and would be worked up to being shown the
full Articles of Impeachment. Who's to say that trend of making things
progressively more serious wouldn't continue?

Also, you say that the other Impeachment Articles weren't to be used unless
we resisted. I assume resistance meant arguing the point and trying to clear
our names and reputations of criminal charges. Since ANY self respecting
Citizen would do just that, it's assured that ALL Articles of Impeachment
would have been used.

And here I end my argument. My Email program is stretched to it's limit and
there wasn't enough left to warrant a two-part post. Cincinnatus commented on
only a couple lesser issues below - they had little to do with the rest of
the debate above.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Cassius-Cincinnatus Debate, Part 2
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:57:05 EDT

In a message dated 7/21/99 12:13:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:

Sergius:
> So now all of this debate is because _I_ have accused you of something
and insulted your personal honor? That's too much pure BS to even deserve
comment.

Cassius:
In your attempt to "fully" restore Cincinnatus, you openly accused me of
illegal activity. I posted my explanation of events. Cincinnatus replied
since my information concerned him directly, and he and I are now debating.
I never would have made the post to the list if I hadn't felt that your
comments were continuing the issues beyond the actual situations themselves.

Sergius:
> I notice that whenever anyone raises a point of difference here, they're
likely to be told "Who are you, anyway? Have you held any offices or done
anything important?" Nice try, but it doesn't wash. I volunteered several
times to help where I might be of assistance, and never got a response,
so don't even try to come back at me with that kind of nonsense.

Cassius:
I wasn't saying you had no right to speak... I was saying that I didn't
recognize you and therefore had no personal beef with you except for your
comments directed at me. With more than 200 Citizens it's difficult to
remember everybody.

Sergius:
>As to your personal honor, I have nothing against you personally, and in
fact don't know anything about you other than what you have posted. And
that speaks for itself.

Cassius:
Then there was no reason to attack me while trying to speak up for
Cincinnatus. Especially since I was also advocating his return, although not
as Consul.

Sergius:
If you had spent any time on this list, you would have encountered me
before. No further comment on that.

Cassius:
I'm sure I HAVE seen posts from you before... just couldn't recall them.
With all the traffic on this list that's a perfectly reasonable thing.

Sergius:
If this is a "debate" then I'm not going to continue it either here or in
private. As I said before, enough has been revealed for all to form their
own opinions as to what happened and who caused it to happen. Obviously
there will be as many of those opinions as there are participants here.

Cassius:
You certainly didn't seem interested in discussion of any kind... you just
wanted me to take a few public lumps so that Cincinnatus' actions would look
good in comparison, and shut up about it! ;)

Sergius:
Nobody's opinions are likely to be changed, and none of them is really
too important in relation to the future. If you want to continue working
to rehabilitate your reputation, more power to you! Aside from the need
to correct the wrong done to Cincinnatus, I see nothing more to be said
on this subject.

Cassius:
Feel free to continue your efforts on behalf of Cincinnatus... and I wish you
the best of luck!

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Re: What to Wear (Was What To Do)
From:	AC1917@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 04:44:54 EDT

A lavender toga? Hmmm . . . that's much too close to purple for this
republican's taste, Cypria. LOL

Camillus Severus Antoninus

Subject:	In the latest Explorator
From:	David Meadows dmeadows@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:38:32 -0400

An item likely to be of interest here, from my free archaeological email
newsletter Explorator:


On Monday, the Times of London had an interesting article on the cult of
St. Alban's and its origins as a pagan cult, according to research at
Verulamium (thanks to Sally Winchester for the heads up) (watch the wrap):

<a href="http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016.html" target="_top" >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016.html</a>
?2177977
<url:<a href="http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016" target="_top" >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016</a>
.html?2177977>


Vale,

MPJ

Subject:	Re: Ludi Apollinares - winners into the camenaeum
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:14:49 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Merullus and Ctizens;

If it were possible to provde me with copies of all the entries to the
above contest, I would like to publish them, one at a time, in the
Eagle. I would like to have the copies either by E-Mail or by snail
mail together with the winners in the contest. I apologize for the
inconvieniance of sending them once again, but my E-Mail storage is very
small and I deleted them after reading. Since then I have taken on the
job as Eagle Editor (whatever) and would like to build a bcklog of
offerings of all kinds

If that were possible I would be most appreciative.

Vale,
Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Senate Appointment
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:43:51 -0400

Salvete Omnes!

Due to special circumstances, Gaius Triumphius Cicero was unable to send or
receive email over the last few weeks, and thus was unable to know of or
respond to my offer to elevate him to the Senate. Now that he's back
on-line, he has indicated his wish to accept.

Therefore, as legally-appointed Dictator of Nova Roma, I hereby declare that
Gaius Triumphius Cicero is elevated to membership in the Senate, with all of
the duties and privileges that brings.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

Subject:	Constitution and Help Wanted
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:00:01 -0400

Salvete!

I just wanted to let everyone know that I'll be holding off another day or
two in implementing the new Constitution and enabling laws, so I can process
the last-minute flurry of commentary by folks (my bout with the flu hasn't
helped!) I'm adjusting my estimated time of stepping down to this weekend;
perhaps our good augurs could point to an auspicious date?

Also, the following positions are in need of filling, and must be filled
before I step down. If you think you have the ability, desire, and (most
importantly) time to take on these roles, please let me know.

* Election officer (2): Needed to administer the election process and voting
on laws by the comitia. Internet and Excel/Access skills preferable.

* Email list moderator: Just lots of time and patience in reading all these
posts!

* Web master: HTML (MS FrontPage especially useful) and graphic design
skills required.

* Lictores curiata (30): No skills required. A ceremonial (but vital)
function. Just act as witnesses to actions of the Pontifex Maximus.

There are other positions, but these are the ones I want filled before I
step down as Dictator (the election officers in particular; let's NOT get
into another position where we can't have elections because some vital cog
is missing).

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator

PS: Thanks to all who wished me well during my recent bout with the flu. I
seem to be over the worst of it now, and appreciate all the kind email.

Subject:	Re: In the latest Explorator
From:	Diana/Orbianna proserpina@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:15:09 -0400

Salve & gratias for the post!

I went to check out the sight but was informed i needed a user code in
order to enter the site. Perhaps you could just copy and paste the article
into an email and post it to us. That's what I had intended to do. I'd be
greatly appreciative.

I would like to forward it to a group that I work with on campus here at
Drexel. It's a small pagan organization. Strangely, the advisor to the
group is a reverand of Asbury Protestant Ministry. He's very open-minded
and comes to our meetings sometimes. It was quite interesting to see him
read part of a pagan ritual when we were discussing elements of ritual. He
asked a lot of questions and never once seemed to judge. I was highly
impressed. He is, of course, on the list to which I post various
pagan-oriented material. I can't help but to wonder what he truly thinks
of it all, and what he will think of an article like the one you described.

Many people, even some pagans today, don't realize that many of
Christianity's rituals and ideas are mutated pagan rituals and ideas. I'm
really looking forward to reading this article. I think it's time the
truth be told. Speaking of which, and I know I'm rambling extensively,
there is an excellent book that you can get through Kessinger Publishing,
LLC. It's called, "Jesus Christ: A Fiction Founded Upon the Life of
Apollonius of Tyanna." It's a very interesting read. Also through
Kessinger Publishing is, "Arguments of the Emperor Julian Against the
Christians." Julian, one of the last great pagan emperors, wrote a logical
argument in reference to aspects of Judeo-Christianity, many of which we've
all concluded ourselves. It's just neat to see something like that was
written in the Late Roman Empire. And FYI, Kessinger Publishing, LLP
republishes out-of-print books on many esoteric subjects. Here's the
website: <a href="http://www.kessingerpub.com" target="_top" >http://www.kessingerpub.com</a>

Vale and Bright Blessings,
Orbianna

At 07:38 21/07/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Dav--------eadows <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114232192237248190028232203026129208071" >dmeadows@--------</a>
>
>An item likely to be of interest here, from my free archaeological email
>newsletter Explorator:
>
>
>On Monday, the Times of London had an interesting article on the cult of
>St. Alban's and its origins as a pagan cult, according to research at
>Verulamium (thanks to Sally Winchester for the heads up) (watch the wrap):
>
><a href="http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016.html" target="_top" >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016.html</a>
>?2177977
><url:<a href="http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016" target="_top" >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016</a>
>.html?2177977>
>
>
>Vale,
>
>MPJ
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>Congrats to GROW TO GIVE winners, ZENtertainment & ROTInews!
><a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Iustina Luciania Orbianna
Gens Luciania
----------------------------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=165212250009158116172098203108129208071" &--------rbianna@--------</a&--------
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197212253112056209171056066140114002071048139" >proserpina@--------</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7401</a>
----------------------------

"Scientia est potentia." -Francis Bacon

"Pax Cererem nutrit, Pacis alumna Ceres" -Ovid "Fasti" 1.701-704

"I will teach you to know yourself" -Persephone, as Queen of the Underworld

Subject:	Re: Pt I&II Cassius-Cincinnatus Debate
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:17:15 -0400 (EDT)

In regard to transfers, it was my impression that they weren't available
yet because of a manufacturing delay, but that was just an impression.
I saw the stamps on the table and said something to Cassia about "it was
a nice job."

I believe Cinncinnatus mentioned them to me, and my reply was that I
wouldn't worry about it or some such.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Re: Stoic School?
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:21:19 -0400 (EDT)

Salve,

I too am interested in a Syoic School, and would become a member if
asked. You now have as many members as the Sodalitas Militum, so go
ahead (<Grin>)!!

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Cassius-Cincinnatus Debate 3
From:	"Lucius" vergil@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:08:34 -0400

Salvete, Quirites
>
>> Cincinnatus: I know some people are tired of this debate,
>Cassius: I'm sure everybody is completely tired of this now, but I suppose
>this DOES have to be done. Just like the debates of old times, yes?
>
Cincinnatus: Why not :-)


>Cassius: I've got both Netscape and Internet Explorer at work, but they're
>really no better. They're just a constant source of *different*
frustrations!
>
> >Cassius:
> >Actually, I DIDN'T own the web page. Never have. >
> > Cincinnatus: So you made the decision to just start over regardless of
>what anyone else had to say.
>
>Cassius: I can't help but think that just starting over was a preferable
>course of action to a long drawn-out Civil War, complete with an
Impeachment
>and a trial, which would have lasted for months. Even if the Comitiae had
>been formed it wouldn't have solved all the existing problems with the
>Senate, Constitution, lack of laws, etc.

Cincinnatus: These aren't 'problems', these are just part of the job. This
is why we joined Nova Roma to reform Religio and the Republic.
>>
>Cassius: If you want subordinates to do something, you deal with them
>directly, or raise the issue in *official* channels.

Cincinnatus: Really this has been a subject since the beginning and nothing
was being done.
>>
>> Cincinnatus: You mean like you are trying to trash me now?
>Cassius: I think you may be mixing issues up here.
>
> Cassius
> >Anyway, when I wrote to you I explained that I was busy setting up a new
> >branch office at work, AND Patricia and I were trying to get moved into
our
> >new home...
>>Cincinnatus: This is why I left the subject alone in Jan. Feb. and March
But
>it seems that either way nothing was getting done.
>
>Cassius: By that time I'd asked for assistance, and you said you would do
the
>tribes since I wouldn't be able to for quite some time. After agreeing to
do
>this, and knowing that I wasn't working on the project at all... you
>intentionally left the subject alone?
>
Cincinnatus: No I was waiting to get information AND I was not intentionally
mentioning the Comitiae as I was doing before the end of last year. I will
continue to say and it is true that it was not until April that Flavia
Claudia sent me a copy of the citizens list which was out of date. She did
soon afterward begin to send me updates. It was not until middle to late May
that Palladius and you began to send me new entries, some of which were
months old, but we quickly caught up I thought.
> >
>> Cincinnatus: You keep using these "quote" marks when did I ever say
>perfect? there are still may small errors throughout in the citizens list.

>Cassius: You stated that you wouldn't work with the Citizen's list you had,
>and demanded a completely updated list from Flavia Iucunda. Since
information
>had been deleted, there was no way to get you such a list in a reasonable
>amount of time. You had the best there was at that point - but wouldn't use
>it to create even a basic outline of how the tribes should be assigned.

Cincinnatus: Neither of us knew that citizens list was in such a state and
you were in the midst of moving your business and home, plus Patricia had a
hospital vist.
I had and have a basic outline. I wanted to post the tribes and their
members on the website just as Gangalius did with the List of Cives page
(that is now gone for some reason) thus everyone would know who was in each
tribe and who the other members of their tribe were AND the added benefit of
discovering if there were any members missing and if there were repeated
entries.
>
>>Cincinnatus: Temporary is one thing, 2 months another, but we still have
no
> Comitiae after nearly a year and a half. Plus there are two of you, what
was
>Palladius doing during this time? Couldn't he have done something during
this
>time?
>
>Cassius: Two months out of a five year term of service IS a temporary
thing.


Cincinnatus: Yes it is, But a year and a half is something else when the
function of the whole government is held up.
>>
>> Cincinnatus: No, more like four or five months. The thing had not been
>worked on since Nov and I didn't get a copy until April.
>
>Cassius:
>What Flavia Claudia sent to you was a copy of the Citizen's list in late
>January...

Cincinnatus: No, I don't think she even had it then.
> >
>Cassius:
>Planning to remove your Co-Consul from office, and me as Pontifex Maximus
>(among other things) isn't a positive or productive way of "doing something
>about it".

Cincinnatus: No, just the Censores. Not Consul. Not Pontifex Maximus.
If a Pontif has a problem they should discuss it among the College
Pontificium.
>
>Cassius:
> ">Dude, I flatly refused to do the Tribes project on the grounds that I
>wouldn't be able to properly research it for a few months."
>Cincinnatus:
> Like you said you refused to do it because you didn't know anything about
>it.
>
>Cassius:
>That's right. And amazingly enough, not being well versed in the Roman
tribes
>is NOT a crime. I didn't become Censor originally to be the person who set
up
>the Tribes and Comitia. Germanicus was going to do that...

Cincinnatus: Well, between you and Palladius something should have been done
and I was giving Palladius ideas on how it could be done simply and he had
his own ideas too.
> >
>Cassius: Your assisting with the Citizen's list during the months of May
and
>June, (because Flavia Claudia abruptly resigned from the job and because
you
>had the Excel database program) was very helpful and much appreciated.

Cincinnatus: And I would be glad to continue doing it.
>
> >Cassius:
> >Dude, I flatly refused to do the Tribes project on the grounds that I
> >wouldn't be able to properly research it for a few months.
> Cincinnatus: There it is. You are Censor but you won't do the job. That
sums
>up the situtation.
>
>Cassius: No, I WAS Censor, but have quit that time destroying, difficult
and
>totally thankless job.

Cincinnatus: Well you are still listed on the website as such, whereas I
have been removed from all my offices.

>Cassius:
>What about the Citizen's list Flavia Claudia sent to you in January?

Cincinnatus: She didn't even have a list in January to send.
>
> >Cassius:>
> >The amazing thing is that you yourself was publicly blaming Flavia
Iucunda
> >for not forwarding the Citizens' list to you at that time.
>
> Cincinnatus: I think you better check your sources. I never did anything
of
> the sort!
>
>Cassius:
>Well, at least that is something that can be verified outside our "Did -
Did
>not!" session! Either Flavia Iucunda will read this and make some sort of
>statement, or citizens can Email her privately to inquire. I'm sure she did
>make up with you eventually - she's quite nice and everything got hashed
out
>at Roman Days.

Cincinnatus: We never hashed out anything because there was nothing to hash
out. And yes she is very nice...a real card and should be dealt with :-)
>
>Cassius:
>Actually, the solution is to have shorter debates! ;) If an Email is too
long
>for a program to send, it's too long for people to wade through.
>(Another merciful amputatio)
>
> Cassius:
> As I recall, a new place was set up within a couple of days.
>
>>Cincinnatus: Yes Patricia found a nice site called eGroups.com but no one
>would use it. I think the registration format threw most people off, but I
>thought it was a great site for us.
>
>Cassius:
>The E-groups site was a little hard to figure out... but the reason nobody
>was talking was that everyone was pissed at one another.

Cincinnatus: I wasn't pissed and Flavia wasn't as far as I knew and you may
have been busy and yes the thing was an ordeal to register on but once that
was done it was as good a media as we could have asked for.
> >
>> Cincinnatus: That's funny, but many people don't like this quitting
answer
>to a problem. I'm glad you haven't done it because once one quits there is
no
>hope.
>
>Cassius:
>You don't have to tell ME about this! Most of my friends quit Nova Roma
over
>this thing... It's easy to lose hope when the people you trust decide to
>walk away and give up something important as a lost cause.
>
> > CIncinnatus: You were the only one to vote against it, After you told us
>you supported a reprimand. I also posted Sulla's tax proposal and the
propsal
> for the Sodalitas Pro Infantia to the Senate and took the heat for those
not
> being accepted, like I was Dictator and I could just say "yea, sure
>whatever".
>
> Cassius:
> I NEVER supported a reprimand for Sulla. You're just plain remembering
> wrongly here...
>
> Cincinnatus: Don't remember this?
>
> Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 6:19 PM
> Subject: Re: Hacking into the Senate
>
> >Salvete Senatores, Tribunes, et Quaestor,
> >
> >It seems I may have been a bit mistaken with my earlier post. I have
indeed
> >thought that this situation and all it's postings were leading up to a
> public trial and (and subsequent expulsion) of Sulla. If I've been
mistaken, I
> >sincerely apologize! I will happily support a fairly restrained PUBLIC
> notice from the Senate, saying that we frown on Sulla's actions, and won't
>even raise an objection if a strong PRIVATE warning is added to that,
saying that the
> >next time he tries to "skim" through a legal loophole it will go much
worse
> >for him. (As far as I can recall, though, "removing" Sulla has been a
topic
> of all private correspondence on the subject... so I figured that this
> argument was more of the same.) I'll answer some of the particular
dialogue
>below,but again I have no objection of the Senate showing displeasure
without
>causing an incredible legal hassle.
>
>Cassius:
>Hey, that's great! Where'd you get that? Did you save it personally, or did
>the old Senate archives get preserved somehow? I'd just LOVE to get my
hands
>on the rest!

Cincinatus: I sent it to Curule Aedile Marcus Martianus Gangalius for his
Histories with all of this subject matter so it is still in my "sent items".
>
>Anyway, the above info is helpful as far as I'm concerned. It looks like I
>probably WAS the first person to use the *word* exile... There was
>a big difference between the Senate showing displeasure and assigning some
>sort of official punishment.

Cincinnatus: Yes, and that is why we voted the Reprimand only.
>
> > Cincinnatus: No one ever mentioned throwing Sulla out that I saw. We
just
>needed to do something versus doing nothing.
>
>(yet another merciful amputatio of info containing no new discussion)
>
> Cassius:
> Oh, whatever. The proposition that came to me would have demanded constant
> attention...
> >
>> CIncinnatus: Well 'constant' maybe a relative term, certianly a few hours
a
>week by whichever Censor was on "duty".
>Cassius:
>LOL! A few hours a week... the reason Flavia Claudia resigned from doing
the
>Citizens' list was because even doing THAT small aspect of the job was more
>than a person could keep up with.

Cincinnatus: I think she has other things to worry about, none of us know
how long something will take unless we have done it or seen it done. When
you send me a new citizen(s) it only takes a couple of minutes to add them
to the citizens list. Adding them to a Tribe is not much more because either
they go into the same tribe as their gens or if they are a new gens just add
them to the next tribe that is to get a new gens added.
>
> >Cincinnatus: You never "took the job back", because it was always yours
>
> Cassius:
> Sorry, Cincinnatus, but I'm the one accusing you of pulling a bag job.
>
> > Cincinanatus: Once again, I offered to help by make a propsal in
December
>and I didn't get ANYTHING in the way of information until April and that
was
>so far out of date as to be useless.
> Garbage in, garbage out. I don't do work like that.
>
>Cassius:
>Yet again, you received a copy of the Citizens List in January...
>The important thing was a tribe SYSTEM, which any number of later additions
>could be plugged into.
>
Cincinnatus: No list in January did I get, and I told Palladius of my system
on the phone. So he knows how simple it would be to do.
> >
>> Cincinnatus: I never saw any disturbances caused by the Tullii. I was
sorry
>to see them go.
>
>Cassius:
>I was sorry to see them go as well...
>(amputatio)
>
>
> Cincinnatus: Germanicus and I had both agreed that a mail in application
was
>better anyway. Like he said initially, if people can be bothered to print
up
>a form, fill it out and mail it in, then they aren't that interested in the
>first place. Nova Roma booklets are handed out a events with an application
>on the back to be sent that way. I have some here and they are very nicely
>done.
>
>Cassius:
>People still have the option of making applications by Snail mail. However,
>web based applications are SO much easier to deal with! Info sent by Email
>can be added into the Citizen's database directly rather than needing to be
>retyped, etc. I just can't see deliberately limiting access to Nova Roma...
>especially since that puts overseas applicants into the position of having
to
>spend far too much money and wait too long for Citizenship.
>
Cincinnatus: Yes, both sides have their advantages.

> Cassius:
> What you brought to Roman Days was a partial printout of the Citizen's
list
>> Cincinnatus: No I had more than that, but the work never got any further.
>
>Cassius:
>Maybe you DID have more! All I ever saw was that partial printout of the
>selected fields from the Citizen's list. The reason WHY none of the work
got
>any farther at Roman Days wasn't because Decius Iunius and I were wanting
to
>go with Sulla and Graecus' plan. It was because we didn't get a Senate
quorum
>to show up, and had only one Censor present.

Cincinnatus: Fair enough.


>Cassius:
>If the Senate quorum had been present, and Decius Iunius could have
attended,
>there certainly would have been more discussion. As it was we recognized we
>couldn't do anything then, and pretty much had to leave things.
>
Cincinnatus: Yes, when the subject came up during the meeting you simply
said that you and Palladius would do it by the formula that Palladius had
suggested. So, since you and he were the Censores it is your job anyway,
that was the end of the discussion.
>
> Cassius:
> "Cincinnatus, you DIDN'T have your...!" Oh, right. Sorry. Anyway, your...
> er, "printed material" wasn't quite complete enough to be a better quick
> solution than the plan we'd had from Sulla and Graecus.
>
>> Cincinnatus: I never saw these other plans.
>
>Cassius:
>You saw Callidius plan, because he posted it to the Senate. Same with
>Germanicus' plan. I'm not sure if Sulla's plan was posted to the Senate
also,
>or just sent to us Censors. By then I was suddenly getting bombarded with
so
>much Tribe stuff that I was buried under the mountains of correspondence.

Cincinnatus: Yes, I saw the one Callidius sent; however, I did not see any
of the other plans.
> >
> Cincinnatus: Callidius never expressed any such thing as a veto to me,
but
>he had sent his proposal to the Senate.
>
>Cassius:
>I believe he publicly declared his veto intent in the live chat. He may not
>have Emailed it to you directly.
>
Cinicinnatus: Yes, that must be the case.
>(amputatio)
>> > Cincinnatus: AOL again, humm, you ought to get rid of it.
>
>Cassius:
>I just couldn't get a connection to stay up for more than thirty seconds.
>Actually, I wasn't sure if THAT problem was AOL or our local Internet
>service, CelticWeb. Those guys are the worst, but none of the Internet
>services here in Maine are any good. I was far better off in that respect
>when I lived closer to Boston, where things are civilized.
>
Cincinnatus: LOL, yes the far reaches of the Republic... You must feel like
Ovid Epistulae ex Ponto!
>
> >Cincinnatus: Palladius was Consul and Censor. Nothing was considered
>against him as Consul. Only as Censor, as these were the things that were
not
>being done.
>
>Cassius:
>Therein lies the other "big lie" about the Committee's intent. Decius
Iunius
>and myself were up for Impeachment on ALL aspects of our involvement with
>Nova Roma. He was being impeached as Censor, Consul, Senator and Pontiff. I
>was being Impeached as Censor, Senator, Praetor, and Pontifex Maximus. The
>Committee says that only the Impeachments as Censors were to be pursued "at
>that time"... the other impeachments were to be held over our heads so that
>we would submit.

CIncinnatus: No, I would not have stood for that!
Only the office of Censor was of concern.
>
>Firstly, you don't write up seven pages of Impeachment articles, and work
to
>sign on every magistrate below Senator onto such an attempt without going
all
>the way.

Cincinnatus: Senator is not a magistrate and you most likely were informed
of the whole thing by a Senator.
>
>Look at yourself, Cincinnatus. You have been offered the opportunity to
>return as a Citizen, Patrician, Senator and Priest. Only the Consulship is
>being denied you...
>
Cincinnatus: No, the last I heard I was offered citizenship on the condition
that I not run for office for a year and a half including Senator (sic)
[Senator is not an elected office]. As for Consul, I was elected in the same
election as all the other magistrates even on the same ballot. So why was I
singled out? I had to be removed so that that specious argument could be
used that I didn't have a veto and Germanicus could be made Dictator.

Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 8:44 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Speech made at Ludi Romani
>From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> >Salvete omnes!
<SNIP>
"While I stand by my opinion of Cincinnatus as a politician, I am not deaf
to the cries of his supporters and friends, many of whom have contacted me
on his behalf. In the spirit of compromise and cooperation embodied by the
great Goddess Concordia, I hereby decree that Cincinnatus may indeed once
again be enlisted as a Citizen of our fair Republic, and I shall personally
reinstall him in his sacred office of Flamen Martiales, on the sole proviso
that he neither seek nor serve in political office, including the Senate,
until 2,754 AUC (March of 2001), roughly a year and a half from now."

Cincinntus: If there is something changed I have not been notified. I have
no intention for running for any political office again in any case (I had
thought of Censor in the future but that is in three and a half years from
now and by then we may have much better qualified candidates than me I
hope). I only wanted to see the Republic set up before I left office. I was
more than satified with a seat in the Senate and in the College Pontificium.

> Cassius:
> Decius Iunius Palladius, Consul, convened the Senate. He had the imperium.
> Cincinnatus: And I have Imperium and the Veto, so I vetoed it.
>
>Cassius:
>You lost the Veto power the moment the Dictator was legally voted in by a
>quorum of the Senate. THAT is incontrovertible. You tried to impose a
>Consular veto on a legal Dictator, and that doesn't work. Rock beats
>scissors.
>
Cincinnatus: I vetoed the action of convening the Senate for the purpose of
voting anyone Dictator, All subsequent actions are illegal. I have stated
however that I do not begrudge the Senate appointments and much of what
Germanicus proposes.
These are being debated....
So I could have held votes and not told Palladius about them until they
passed then just said "Too late, nany nany boo boo"? Is that how you operate
the Senate? I always posted any vote to the Senate board AND sent it via
email to all the Senatores.
In this case I was locked out of the Senate and I never did get an email.
This was a coup de'tat.

> CIncinnatus: Look if I though I would have had the support you have given
to
>Germanicus, I would have been gald to, but every time I tried to do
anything
>I was getting minimal support or waffling.
>
>Cassius:
>The entire government was dysfunctional... a lot of that really isn't your
>fault.
>
>(amputatio of old re-posted text not commented on)
>>
> Cincinnatus: Well the actions you all have taken speak for themselves.
>
>Cassius:
>So do your own actions. At least ours have some hope of positive result...
a
>more complete Constitution and Laws which the Citizens themselves have a
hand in creating, as well as processes for dealing with complaints and
problems.
>Your alternative of a several month long Civil war encompassing an
>Impeachment process, legal trial and forced breakup of the Consulate and
>Senate would have only left Nova Roma completely dead.
>
Cincinnatus: Something had to be done to bring the Board of Directors and
Nova Roma Inc. out into the open
> >
> Cincinnatus: Never saw any post of a list of who is in which tribe. I did
>see a list of proposed names of tribes.
>Cassius:
>Can someone forward this thing to Cincinnatus? It's late and I'm NOT going
to
>go digging in old Emails for it tonight.
>
>(amputatio)
>
> Cassius:
> I thought it was amazing that your office should be considered sacred,
but Decius Iunius' Consulship should be totally expendable.
>
> Cincinnatus: Palladius is both Censor and Consul, only the office of
CENSOR
>was under consideration. But that is just another detail that people are
>quick to overlook. Like most thing people believe what they want.
>
>Cassius:
>Articles of Impeachment were drawn up for all offices held by Decius
Iunius -
>Censor, Consul, Senator and Pontiff. You say you were only going to
actively
>pursue the Impeachment for his Censor position,...

Cincinnatus: No, People were making suggestions and 'Impeachment' was one of
them. Thus I was removed from all, citizenship, offices, everything at the
whim of one.
>
Cassius:
>Also, you say that the other Impeachment Articles weren't to be used unless
>we resisted. I assume resistance meant arguing the point and trying to
clear
>our names and reputations of criminal charges. Since ANY self respecting
>Citizen would do just that, it's assured that ALL Articles of Impeachment
>would have been used.

Cincinnatus: You were never charged with anything. Thus what was done was an
act of desperation. You assumed the worst, far beyound what was even being
considered.
>
>And here I end my argument. >Vale,Marcus Cassius Julianus


Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus

Subject:	Oath of Office
From:	"Gaius Triumphius" poeticfiend@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:30:26 PDT

Salvete,

I, Gaius Triumphius Cicero do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor
of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the
Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gaius Triumphius Cicero swear to do
honor to the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue
the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gaius Triumphius Cicero further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Senator of Nova Roma to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of Senator of Nova Roma and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

-Gaius Triumphius Cicero

Subject:	Re: Re: What to Wear (Was What To Do)
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:32:22 GMT

Salve

Yes, Antoninus, but it looks so good on me. Besides, there are paisleys all
over it. Besides, I'm not the type to want to be in charge, so naught to
worry about.

Vale

Cypria

Subject:	Re: Constitution and Help Wanted
From:	"Gary E. McGrath" Garymac@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:30:51 -0400

Dictator Germanicus:
I have recently been in contact with Consul Palladius in regard to the
Lictores Curiata and would very much like to be considered for this position. I
would also consider one of the Election Officer positions, however being new to
NR I would ask that you give me some more information as to what my duties would
be, etc.

Respectfully,
Marcus Arrius Julianus

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> >
> Salvete!
>
> I just wanted to let everyone know that I'll be holding off another day or
> two in implementing the new Constitution and enabling laws, so I can process
> the last-minute flurry of commentary by folks (my bout with the flu hasn't
> helped!) I'm adjusting my estimated time of stepping down to this weekend;
> perhaps our good augurs could point to an auspicious date?
>
> Also, the following positions are in need of filling, and must be filled
> before I step down. If you think you have the ability, desire, and (most
> importantly) time to take on these roles, please let me know.
>
> * Election officer (2): Needed to administer the election process and voting
> on laws by the comitia. Internet and Excel/Access skills preferable.
>
> * Email list moderator: Just lots of time and patience in reading all these
> posts!
>
> * Web master: HTML (MS FrontPage especially useful) and graphic design
> skills required.
>
> * Lictores curiata (30): No skills required. A ceremonial (but vital)
> function. Just act as witnesses to actions of the Pontifex Maximus.
>
> There are other positions, but these are the ones I want filled before I
> step down as Dictator (the election officers in particular; let's NOT get
> into another position where we can't have elections because some vital cog
> is missing).
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Dictator
>
> PS: Thanks to all who wished me well during my recent bout with the flu. I
> seem to be over the worst of it now, and appreciate all the kind email.
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Create a list for FRIENDS & FAMILY...
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> ...and you can WIN $100 to Amazon.com. See homepage for details.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	De Iuliano Imperatore was In the latest Explorator
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:02:45 -0400

Salvete Orbianna et alii


>LLC. It's called, "Jesus Christ: A Fiction Founded Upon the Life of
>Apollonius of Tyanna." It's a very interesting read. Also through
>Kessinger Publishing is, "Arguments of the Emperor Julian Against the
>Christians."

I would like to read that.

Julian, one of the last great pagan emperors, wrote a logical
>argument in reference to aspects of Judeo-Christianity, many of which we've
>all concluded ourselves.

Doesn't it steal some of Julian's thunder to refer to him as "one of"? I
thought that he WAS THE LAST GREAT pagan emperor.

Can you, Orbianna, or others here with the interest and the info, name
other, later emperors who were openly pagan, or even made any edicts/actions
that helped practitioners of the old religions vs. the Christians?

It's just neat to see something like that was
>written in the Late Roman Empire. And FYI, Kessinger Publishing, LLP
>republishes out-of-print books on many esoteric subjects. Here's the
>website: <a href="http://www.kessingerpub.com" target="_top" >http://www.kessingerpub.com</a>
>
>Vale and Bright Blessings,
>Orbianna
>
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Re: Stoic School?
From:	"Keith Seddon" K.H.S@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:16:09 +0100

Many thanks to those who expressed interest in my proposed Stoic School.

I am writing to everyone directly.

If this all works out, I'll put a posting on the list in coming
weeks/months.

Contact me for news/information any time.

Live with honour,

L. Gellius Severus
Stoic Philosopher
Collegium Stoicorum

Subject:	Re: Constitution and Help Wanted
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:36:35 -0400

Salvete Dictator Flavi Vedi et alii



>From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> >
>
>Also, the following positions are in need of filling, and must be filled
>before I step down. If you think you have the ability, desire, and (most
>importantly) time to take on these roles, please let me know.
>
>* Election officer (2): Needed to administer the election process and
voting
>on laws by the comitia. Internet and Excel/Access skills preferable.

I am interested in this position. I know Excel well, use it often listing
people, and in bookkeeping. My knowledge of Access is negligible, but I
never encountered a program that I couldn't learn in a couple of days. What
sort of Internet skills are required? I'm no programmer, in html or
anything else; the only page that I ever put up was just a variation of a
template; but again, I stand ready to learn.

I gather that the two election officers would be appointed by you now and
serve for the duration of the crucial first votes of the various comitia, to
pass your laws and then to elect new magistrates?

I can devote 4 hours per week to such a task (and a lot more for the first
few days to learn new programs if that happens to be the case); is it
enough? Please consider me a candidate.


>* Lictores curiata (30): No skills required. A ceremonial (but vital)
>function. Just act as witnesses to actions of the Pontifex Maximus.

No disrespect meant, Flavi Vedi, but why are these lictores curiati crucial
right now?
>
>There are other positions, but these are the ones I want filled before I
>step down as Dictator (the election officers in particular; let's NOT get
>into another position where we can't have elections because some vital cog
>is missing).
>
>Valete,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>Dictator
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Re: Stoic School?
From:	SDmtwi@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:03:40 EDT

Salve, L Gellius Severus.

> Many thanks to those who expressed interest in my proposed Stoic School.

Please add me as one of those who wholeheartedly supports this idea.
I will always laud any attempt to further the pursuit of philosophy.

Vale,
T Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	Re:De Iuliano Imperatore was In the latest Explorator
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:49:10 EDT

In a message dated 7/21/99 3:04:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:

<< Can you, Orbianna, or others here with the interest and the info, name
other, later emperors who were openly pagan, or even made any edicts/actions
that helped practitioners of the old religions vs. the Christians?
>>

Salve,

The Emperor Julian was the last full Pagan Emperor of the Classical world.
There *was* a minor Western Usurper called Flavius Eugenius, who proclaimed
himself Caesar of the west briefly. He was an admirer of Julian's efforts. He
was defeated by Theodosius I in 394 AD... thereafter there were no serious
attempts to restore the ancient Classical religions to the now Byzantine
empire.

The stories about Eugenius are conflicting in some areas. It is believed that
he was a Christian before being placed on the throne by the Magister Peditum
(master of soldiers) Arbogast... but it is certain that by the end of his
attempt to gain the crown he was fully on the side of Paganism. It is
believed that he briefly restored the Altar of Victory to the Senate house in
Rome.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Stoic school
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:17:19 -0400 (EDT)

--- Keith Seddon <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=051242203132237135180082190036" >K.H.S@--------</a> wrote:
> I am developing plans for a Stoic School (Collegium Stoicorum), which would
> aim to help individuals progress towards eudaimonia, the vita beata, or the
> happy life.
> If there is interest in this, I will set about preparing a webpage (not
> necessarily on the NR site, tho a link from the NR site would be something
> to aim for), and starting a onelist forum for general communication.
> If anyone needs to know more in order to decide whether they would be
> interested, let me know.

*bounce* *bounce*

Add me to the list of interested peoples!


:)



Valete et khairete,


-Andrea Gladia Kyrinia









===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar/Andreia *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andreia/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-

Subject:	Re:in the latest explorator
From:	David Meadows dmeadows@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:16:20 -0400

At 10:51 PM 21/07/1999 -0000, Scripsisti:

Salve & gratias for the post!

I went to check out the sight but was informed i needed a user code in
order to enter the site. Perhaps you could just copy and paste the article
into an email and post it to us. That's what I had intended to do. I'd be
greatly appreciative.

Respondeo:

With all due respect, I'd rather not ... As a listowner myself (several
lists) and the editor of a major website with quite a bit of original
content up (and more to come)I'm very sensitive to issues of copyright and
I'm sure that one of these days one of the major news services is going to
come down hard on listowners who post entire articles. That said, I should
have explained something:

Scripsi:

On Monday, the Times of London had an interesting article on the cult of
St. Alban's and its origins as a pagan cult, according to research at
Verulamium (thanks to Sally Winchester for the heads up) (watch the wrap):

<a href="http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016.html" target="_top" >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016.html</a>
?2177977
<url:<a href="http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016" target="_top" >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/Monday-Times/timnwsnws03016</a>
.html?2177977>

Respondeo (sort of):

The important thing is the 'watch the wrap'; what has happened in your case
is that the url has spilled over onto the other line. Many browsers don't
pick this up so you have to manually cut and paste that little bit (i.e.
the ?217797) onto the end of the line in your browser window. That number
happens to be my user number. [so what you do above is 1) highlight and
copy the ?217797 2)click on the url to launch your browser 3)while it is
looking for the Times site, paste the ?217797 on the end of the url in your
broswer 4) press enter.

Vale!

MJP
(still awaiting citizenship, alas)

Subject:	Re: Constitution and Help Wanted
From:	Daniel Dreesbach dreesbach@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:15:30 -0400 (EDT)

I am interested in the Lictores curiata.

COuld you send me what is expected of me if you approve?

Is the new constitution posted?
G. Iunius Germanus

--- Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> wrote:
> From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus"
> <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> >
> Salvete!
>
> * Lictores curiata (30): No skills required. A
> ceremonial (but vital)
> function. Just act as witnesses to actions of the
> Pontifex Maximus.
>
> There are other positions, but these are the ones I
> want filled before I
> step down as Dictator (the election officers in
> particular; let's NOT get
> into another position where we can't have elections
> because some vital cog
> is missing).
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Dictator
>
> PS: Thanks to all who wished me well during my
> recent bout with the flu. I
> seem to be over the worst of it now, and appreciate
> all the kind email.
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> Create a list for FRIENDS & FAMILY...
> <a href="http://www.onelist.com" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com</a>
> ...and you can WIN $100 to Amazon.com. See homepage
> for details.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Subject:	Re: Re: Constitution and Help Wanted
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:51:43 -0700

RMerullo wrote:

> >* Lictores curiata (30): No skills required. A ceremonial (but vital)
> >function. Just act as witnesses to actions of the Pontifex Maximus.
>
> No disrespect meant, Flavi Vedi, but why are these lictores curiati crucial
> right now?

They are not crucial. They are not even needed right now. Of course it is a position
that will allow more people in the club to have titles.

Ericius.

Subject:	Re: Re: Constitution and Help Wanted
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:18:19 -0500 (CDT)

The Lictores Curiata may not be crucial and may allow more people to
have titles but is that bad? I thought about something to that effect a
couple of days ago and came to the conclusion that it is getting average
citizens more involved in a positive way without really being expected
to do all that much. It is also of course a historical body, and will
serve its purpose in the proper time and place in Nova Roma as well.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Re: Cassius-Cincinnatus Debate 4 (shorter!)
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:58:59 EDT

Salvete,

It looks like this debate is winding down somewhat. Has it achieved anything?
I honestly have no clue. At least there has been some open, fairly civilized
discussion. That in and of itself isn't a bad thing.

My reply here is going to be far shorter than Cincinnatus' last post. I am
snipping most threads and replying only when there is new information to be
given. Most of the issues are "talked out"... we simply don't agree on some
subjects and that's only to be expected. I've done what I could to put out
"the other side" of the argument, and it is now a part of the permanent
record. Anyone who feels they've missed anything can refer back to that. In
any case, I applaud Cincinnatus for being civil and thoughtful in his
answers. Should he raise more issues I will be happy to reply to him.

In a m--------g--------t--------/21/99 1:08:11 PM East--------Daylight Tim--------lt;a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
writes:

Cincinnatus: Neither of us knew that citizens list was in such a state and
you were in the midst of moving your business and home, plus Patricia had a
hospital vist.
I had and have a basic outline. I wanted to post the tribes and their
members on the website just as Gangalius did with the List of Cives page
(that is now gone for some reason) thus everyone would know who was in each
tribe and who the other members of their tribe were AND the added benefit of
discovering if there were any members missing and if there were repeated
entries.

Cassius:
Hopefully the Tribes will indeed be posted to the web page. Germanicus has
been swamped with Constitutional issues, but it shouldn't be too difficult
for him to post the tribes so that everyone has access to the info.

>Cassius:
>What Flavia Claudia sent to you was a copy of the Citizen's list in late
>January...

Cincinnatus: No, I don't think she even had it then.

Cassius:
Flavia Claudia was the person officially keeping the Citizen's list, until
she passed off the post to Flavia Iucunda in December. One of the reasons she
did this was because her attempt to run for Consul was questioned because she
had the Citizens' list in her possession as you'll recall. She was able to
forward a copy of the list to you in January because she still HAD the list -
even though she wasn't updating it her old copy was still valuable for her
work producing "The Eagle".

>Cassius: Your assisting with the Citizen's list during the months of May
and
>June, (because Flavia Claudia abruptly resigned from the job and because
you
>had the Excel database program) was very helpful and much appreciated.

Cincinnatus: And I would be glad to continue doing it.

Cassius:
Hopefully the new Censors will have a team of people to assist with jobs such
as that. It's amazing that there was a "web team" of six people, when many of
the updates to the site were only desirable rather than crucial... but the
Censors had no such assistance even though their work IS crucial and must be
maintained on a daily basis.

>Cassius: No, I WAS Censor, but have quit that time destroying, difficult
and
>totally thankless job.

Cincinnatus: Well you are still listed on the website as such, whereas I
have been removed from all my offices.

Cassius:
I just checked the website. If you go to the Collis Capitolanus section, and
click on the "current magistrates" I am NOT listed as Censor. As far as your
offices, I believe that all but Consul have been offered to be restored to
you. As far as I'm concerned both you and I have lost the offices we were
least suited to do during such an early stage of Nova Roma's development...

>Cassius:
>What about the Citizen's list Flavia Claudia sent to you in January?

Cincinnatus: She didn't even have a list in January to send.

Cassius:
Again, she still had the list she'd been keeping up until some time in
December. That was what she forwarded to you in January, after you began to
complain that the list wasn't forthcoming from Flavia Iucunda. (And, as a
note, Flavia Iucunda was quite ill in January, and was away from her computer
for quite some time.)

>Cassius:
>If the Senate quorum had been present, and Decius Iunius could have
attended,
>there certainly would have been more discussion. As it was we recognized we
>couldn't do anything then, and pretty much had to leave things.

> Cincinnatus: Yes, when the subject came up during the meeting you simply
said that you and Palladius would do it by the formula that Palladius had
suggested. So, since you and he were the Censores it is your job anyway,
that was the end of the discussion.

Cassius:
Now, suddenly, the Censors were in a position where they *could* complete the
Tribes project! All the plans officially submitted had been gone over. It
would have been nice to combine aspects from two or three of the plans, but
there was at the very least something on the table that was workable and
could fit the bill for at least a couple of years. It would have been
preferable for a BUNCH of people to get together over the Tribes at Roman
Days. Since this couldn't be done I figured we'd just do the thing now that
it was possible to do so.


>Cassius:
>Therein lies the other "big lie" about the Committee's intent. Decius
Iunius
>and myself were up for Impeachment on ALL aspects of our involvement with
>Nova Roma. He was being impeached as Censor, Consul, Senator and Pontiff. I
>was being Impeached as Censor, Senator, Praetor, and Pontifex Maximus. The
>Committee says that only the Impeachments as Censors were to be pursued "at
>that time"... the other impeachments were to be held over our heads so that
>we would submit.

CIncinnatus: No, I would not have stood for that!
Only the office of Censor was of concern.

Cassius:
You know, I rather believe you're serious when you say you wouldn't have
stood for that. That's when your "friends" would have proceeded with a
similar Impeachment against you. Don't be fooled - they had plenty of info to
do it with, mostly Citizen complaints. All that's under the bridge at this
point, but you were NOT in control of the situation Cincinnatus, even if
people were deferring to you. That's why I'm in favor of your slightly less
than "full" return. You were in the same boat with Decius Iunius and myself,
and the rest of the Senate... you just didn't recognize that at the time. Had
we been Impeached, Decius Iunius and myself are quite convinced that you
wouldn't have outlasted us by more than a month.

Cassius:
>Firstly, you don't write up seven pages of Impeachment articles, and work
to
>sign on every magistrate below Senator onto such an attempt without going
all
>the way.

Cincinnatus: Senator is not a magistrate and you most likely were informed
of the whole thing by a Senator.

Cassius:
Yes, Flavia Claudia. She was the only Senator contacted by the Committee. She
saw this thing for what it was, exposed it into the open, and then promptly
quit her Citizenship in disgust. She was gone even before the Interregnum.

Cassius:
>Look at yourself, Cincinnatus. You have been offered the opportunity to
>return as a Citizen, Patrician, Senator and Priest. Only the Consulship is
>being denied you...

> Cincinnatus: No, the last I heard I was offered citizenship on the condition
that I not run for office for a year and a half including Senator (sic)
[Senator is not an elected office].

Cassius:
You've seen me advocate your return to these positions. I have NO clue what
is officially on the table at this point. Far from being one of the "powers
that be", I'm basically not involved in politics now and don't hear
everything. I'm just too damned weary. Once the Dictatorship is over I'll
participate in the Senate.

Cincinnatus:
As for Consul, I was elected in the same
election as all the other magistrates even on the same ballot. So why was I
singled out?

Cassius:
Don't ask ME! I was personally hoping that the people who thought up the
Impeachment and pressured for it to be started in the first place would be
the ones taken to task for their actions. My personal impression is that you
were being used. Other people "in" the Committee, such as Audens and
Scaevola, were simply lied to. Audens has stated that he would not support
the Articles of Impeachment in ANY form, and that he pulled his support from
the Committee as soon as he saw them. I believe him - his honor has always
been above reproach.

Cincinnatus:
I had to be removed so that that specious argument could be
used that I didn't have a veto and Germanicus could be made Dictator.

Cassius:
Nope, still not right. You still had your Citizenship and the rest when
Germanicus was made Consul. The Senate voted him as Dictator. You attempted
to impose a veto on a legally appointed dictator - that IS something the
Constitution spoke about. Consuls can't veto Dictators. Germanicus removed
you presumably because you were the "poster child" for the Committee... and
later offered to return your Citizenship. If the other things weren't offered
to you they should be. Hence my support.

Cincinntus: If there is something changed I have not been notified. I have
no intention for running for any political office again in any case (I had
thought of Censor in the future but that is in three and a half years from
now and by then we may have much better qualified candidates than me I
hope). I only wanted to see the Republic set up before I left office. I was
more than satified with a seat in the Senate and in the College Pontificium.

Cassius:
I'll continue to look into this... hopefully my public support will be heard.

> Cincinnatus: I vetoed the action of convening the Senate for the purpose of
voting anyone Dictator, All subsequent actions are illegal.

Cassius:
Unfortunately, you did this AFTER the Dictator was already in place. You did
not convene the Senate, but only posted the Veto as a belated attempt to stop
the decison that had already been made.

Cincinnatus: Something had to be done to bring the Board of Directors and
Nova Roma Inc. out into the open

Cassius:
LOL! Now you're perhaps saying you figured there was this "secret" board of
Directors, and the Impeachment was just an attempt to draw them out? None of
this was secret, especially since reports had been made to the Senate. The
Board of Directors was created so that Nova Roma could have a legal bank
account. Citizens were donating money - Nova Roma had to have a treasury. It
couldn't be in the back of somebody's sock drawer while we dithered around!
The Senate asked that State Incorporation be done so that we could get an IRS
number. It was done *immediately*, with the people that were at hand. A bank
account was set up within two days. Nobody thought the least of any of this.
The Board would be changed to the Senate when the federal incorporation
papers were filed, and that wasn't going to be more than a few months away.
The Committee happened to act about three months after the "state" board of
directors was formed... that's why I have said they acted too soon.

And, that's enough for an evening!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Re: Constitution and Help Wanted
From:	AC1917@--------
Date:	Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:59:58 EDT

OK, well, everyone's talkin' about the job . . . question is, how do you
apply?

Camillus Severus Antoninus