| Subject: |
Re: CMM de Senatus Ultimo Consulto was New in the aerarium Saturnii |
| From: |
"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:27:26 -0400 |
|
Salvete Luci Corneli et alii
>From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
>I dont believe that was the intention, C. Marius....again...we are
following
>ancient Rome's example in having that Senatus Ultimum Consultum. This was
>not something that was just thought of. Granted it is Late Republican, but
>it is steeped in the tradition of ancient Rome.
How many times did the Senate of Republican Rome issue the Senatus Consultum
Ultimum? 3, 4 times?
The only instance of which I can think was during consulship of M Tullius
Cicero, to put down the Catilinarian conspiracy, right? I don't know about
you, but the inclusion of the Senatus Consultum Ultimum in the Germanican
constitution disappoints me largely because it makes me think that
conspiracies like Catilina's are expected to develop, or to be manufactured,
here in Nova Roma.
Think about it. We already have the provision for the Senate to elect a
Dictator in times of dire emergency. For one specific type of emergency,
namely the departure of the consuls, we have the Interrex. Now, for another
category of emergency, we have the Senatus Consultum Ultimum. Again, this
suggests to me that Germanicus foresees dangerous conspiracies here in Nova
Roma, because the only example of which I know is Cicero's against Catilina.
Were there many issuances of Senatus Consultum Ultimum in the Republic?
I dont think every crisis
>that Nova Roma faces, we should appoint a dictator.
I don't think that we should have crises. I think that Ericius hit it right
on the head: we cannot afford to have series of crises here. If we do have
repeated crises, will you keep sticking around, Luci Corneli, helping to
re-write volumes of law, or conducting some kind of special consular
investigations, so that someone else can trample all over it and make you,
and the rest of the faithful, look and feel utterly moronic? Even though
the series of crises will mean that none of the goals in our founding
documents is being reached or even approached?
Hey, maybe I'll be one of those stubborn fools who persists with Nova Roma
too. But we shouldn't be surprised if we end up alone, writing paranoid,
accusatory e-mails back and forth at each other and wasting our days and
nights.
Of course you're not "for" crises, and neither is Germanicus. But surely
he, and perhaps you, believe that crises, maybe in the form of conspiracy,
are likely in Nova Roma's near future. Else why would the Senatus Consultum
Ultimum have found its way into the constitution at this juncture?
No insult intended on
>our Honored Dictator Germanicus who has done a marvelous job.
I agree. I haven't agreed with every line of the constitution and
accompanying laws (case in point, this present thread), and I am unable to
form, much less present and defend, a coherent opinion on the decision to
strip Cincinnatus of offices and citizenship, but I continue to be impressed
by Germanicus' diligence and solicitation of feedback.
However, do
>we want to resort to a dictatorship everytime we have a crises?
No. In the event of disagreements among NR magistrates, such should be
resolved as they are in teams everywhere -- by exchange of opinion, debate,
and eventually action conforming to the rules, the latter being first and
foremost the constitution. In those rare events that magistrates cannot
work together (and those instances better be extremely rare if we're to
accomplish ANYTHING collectively), another magistrate will have to draw up
an impeachment law and present it to the appropriate assembly -- and let the
voters decide. The latter process in and of itself will be a crisis of
sorts, but we do have rules in place, thanks to the new Germanican
constitution, to do it.
Crises more "critical" than that? Well, anything is possible I suppose.
But for such extreme manifestations, we do have the provision for a
dictator. Whether we would survive such a crisis, or the ensuing formal
reaction to it, is anyone's guess.
No, I dont
>htink that is the answer. Hence the creation of that addition.
I don't think that any answer is sufficient, if the question is "How to deal
with the upcoming Catilinarian conspiracies against Nova Roma?"
>
>L. Cornelius Sulla
>Praetor Urbanus
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re:CAE de DIP de CMM de Senatus Ultimo Consulto was New in the aerarium Saturnii |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:33:02 -0400 |
|
Salvete!
> From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
>
> As you may assume, I am in agreement with G Marius Merullus on the
Ultimate Decree. I'll
> snip the bulk of the previous post and get to a point I have a further
comment on.
And, naturally, I agree with Palladius' line of thinking. I rather like the
notion of merely increasing the authority of the consuls in time of
emergency, or at least having that option, rather than always having to
default to the option of appointing a dictator.
> will not repeat them. I have, in the past election, mentioned appointing
a dictator for
> an emergency (I was thoroughly jumped on by people who were afraid of the
Dictator getting
> carried away and changing the Constitution and such. [VBEG] ) It would
obviously be
> outrageous to issue the Ultimate Decree to deal with an election problem.
That depends on how you define "election problem". In the current crisis,
one of the problems was that elections couldn't be held and magistrates
elected... period (for a variety of reasons including but not limited to the
lack of tribes and centuries). In the future, if anything like that should
happen there really should be some sort of provision to end the
constitutional Catch-22, short of appointing a dictator. (And, remember that
the senatus ultimo consulto specifically prohibits the consuls from making
constitutional changes... just temporarily overriding it.)
I do think that having the Senatus Ultimo Consulto in there makes the
previous paragraph of the constitution (the one that gives the Senate pretty
broad powers in order to conduct elections in the event that something
procedural is preventing it), obsolete. That one's gone now, but I'm still
very much inclined to keep the "one step below a dictator" clause in there.
And let's not forget, as has been said (and truely), we all hope that these
provisions aren't going to _have_ to be used. But from both an historical
and practical aspect, I do believe it's right and proper to have them
included. Practically, we must never be caught in a position where
circumstances prevent the proper function of the government, short of
appointing a dictator.
Historically, they did exist, and we should try to make some provision for
them, if only as "museum pieces".
By the way-- here's a bit of trivia. As I recall, there was some discussion
in the dim past of Nova Roma, when the first constitution was being
discussed by Marcus Cassius and myself, of whether or not we actually needed
to include provision for a dictator. The argument that "we'll probably never
use it, but we really should have it, because they had it historically" won
out. It's ironic that that sort of decision based on historical precident
made possible the continued existence of Nova Roma. (And make no mistake,
the choice was between appointing a dictator to fix the problems, and having
no Nova Roma at all. Let those who question the appointment of a dictator
chew on that...)
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator
|
| Subject: |
Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:29:05 -0400 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
As legally appointed dictator of Nova Roma, I hereby issue the following
edicta:
1) Barring any unforeseen circumstances, effective at 11:59 PM eastern time,
this upcoming Sunday August 1st, I hereby lay down the office of dictator. I
further enjoin the Senate to vote upon the ratification of my actions in
such manner as they shall see fit, according to their rules for debate and
voting, within thirty days.
2) All edicta issued by me during my tenure as dictator (both previous and
subsequent to this edictum) shall have legal precidence appropriate to their
title as recorded in the aerarium Saturnii. That is, edicta shall have the
legal authority of edicta issued by a dictator, Senatus consulta shall have
the legal authority of an ordinarily-passed Senatus consultum, et cetera. A
law enacted by my edictum may still be superceded by a law voted by the
comitia, etc. Appointments are to be regarded as having been made according
to whatever normal legal and/or constitutional process would be involved.
All documents listed in the "provisional documents" section of the aerarium
Saturnii are hereby put into effect as lex, decretum, Senatus consultum,
constitution et cetera, as appropriate. I do reserve the right to make
last-minute changes prior to my official laying down of my office. Merely
because something was enacted by my edictum as dictator shall not
necessarily imply that that thing bears with it the full weight of a
dictator's edictum.
3) A general amnesty is hereby declared for all citizens of Nova Roma for
their actions leading up to the interregnum, during it, and during my tenure
as dictator. No prosecutions, public or private, shall be pursued for any
crimes or misdeeds, real or perceived, conducted in such context.
4) Pursuant to #3 above, Lucius Equitus Cincinnatus may, should he wish,
inform the censors should he wish to once again become a citizen of Nova
Roma. Should he do so, he shall immediately be placed on the album
senatorium, and the collegium pontificum shall consider his appointment as
Flamen Martiales, according to their rules for debate and voting, within
thirty days. He has indicated his desire not to run for elected office, and
I take him at his word.
5) The requirement of magistrates to take an oath of office is hereby
eliminated. The constitution makes sufficient provision to safeguard the
honor and integrity of the State and its Religio. Should one or more of the
comitia decide otherwise, they may enact such a requirement through a
properly-enacted law.
6) Marcus Minucius Audens is hereby appointed Tribunis Militarium, and head
of the Sodalitas Militarium.
7) The following individuals are hereby appointed as lictores curiata: Gaius
Iunius Germanus, T Labienus Fortunatus, Gaius Iunius Germanus, Gaius Drusus
Domitianus, Camillus Severus Antoninus, Flavius Vedius Germanicus, Decius
Iunius Palladius, Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica,
Lucius Fabius Metellus, Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia, Lucinia Iunia
Cypria, Marcus Martianus Gangalius, Marcus Minucius Audens, Junius Niger
Montis, Gaius Olivarius Mezentius, Paulus Olympius Gallus, Lucius Petronius
Gallus, Gaius Severus Marius Germanicus, Ambrosius Silvanus Virbius, Gnaeus
Tarquinius Caesar, Titia Irisia, Gaius Triumphius Cicero, Piperbaru Ullerius
Venator, Gaius Antonius Scaenicus, Gaius Augustus, Tiberius Caselius
Sidonius, Publius Claudius Lucentius Severus, Marcus Equitius Lentulus, and
Marcus Cornelius Felix. They are reminded that this is a purely ceremonial
position, and yet a vital one wherein they act as witnesses to official
acts, including the bestowing of Imperium upon certain elected magistrates.
8) The following individuals are hereby appointed as rogatores, their term
to expire at the end of this year: Gaius Marius Merullus and T Labienus
Fortunatus. I shall gladly act as advisor to them should they request my
advice, as I am fully conversant with the voting process as it currently
stands.
9) Lucia Maria Fimbria is hereby appointed as curatrix sermo, and shall be
the moderator of the officially-sponsored Nova Roma email list. Her term
shall expire at the end of this year, but she may run for a subsequent term
should she wish to.
I shall be issuing a final statement regarding the changes I have
implemented and my term as dictator, but in brief I would like to thank all
of the citizens of Nova Roma who have assisted me in the tasks assigned my
by the Senate, and it is my fervent wish that I leave us all a stronger
Republic than we had before.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Dictator
|
| Subject: |
Re: Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
"RCW" alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:58:34 -0700 |
|
Salve, I just wanted to take an opportunity to thank Flavius Vedius
Germanicus for all his hard work and dedication in restoring the stability
of Nova Roma. You, Germanicus had a very difficult job to do. And, you
have exceeded all expectations. Thank you Germanicus! You have given the
office of the Dictatorship a new air of respectabilty. Hopefully, G-d
willing we will never have to use it again, but if we do, you have laid a
sound and outstanding precedent for that office.
I just wanted to thank you publically for everything that you have done.
L. Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus et Senator
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
----- Original Message -----
From: Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 4:29 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Various Edicta (Important!)
> From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> As legally appointed dictator of Nova Roma, I hereby issue the following
> edicta:
>
> 1) Barring any unforeseen circumstances, effective at 11:59 PM eastern
time,
> this upcoming Sunday August 1st, I hereby lay down the office of dictator.
I
> further enjoin the Senate to vote upon the ratification of my actions in
> such manner as they shall see fit, according to their rules for debate and
> voting, within thirty days.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
Steven Robinson amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:29:27 -0700 |
|
Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
>
> 1) (snip - stepping down)
>
Venii: Thank you for your labors on behalf of the People and Senate of
Rome. Salutamus!!!
>
> 2) (snip - finalization, with proviso of Legislation)
>
Venii: I also ask that the Senate pursue their deliberation with diligence
and judicious speed.
>
> 3) (snip - amnesty)
>
Venii: Please folks, let's take this as a fresh start in our mutual interest
in Rome and Romanitas.
>
> 4) (snip - Lucius Equitus Cincinnatus
>
Venii: I should hope to see L. Equitius amongst the active citizenry again.
I, personally, had some good correspondance with him. Gotta like a guy who
also works on chainmail. <G> Also, I believe utterly in his dedication to
the Genius of Rome, to Mars in all his aspects and in service to the People
of Rome.
>
> 5) (snip - oath of office)
>
Venii: My Oath as Quaestor stands, and I shall give my Oath should I be
chosen to further serve in the future.
>
> 6) Marcus Minucius Audens is hereby appointed Tribunis Militarium, and
> head of the Sodalitas Militarium.
>
Venii: Vivat! Vivat! Vivat! Audens, I have simplified plans for a Lorica
Segmenta (Newstead find) and late-Empire period helm. Would you like cpoies
for the Sodalitas archives?
>
> 7) (snip) lictores curiata: Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
>
Venii: In simple form - I, Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator, do herby accept
this appointment as Lictore Curiata. I shall fullfill the duties the best I
can. By my Holy Ones and Those of Rome, I give this, my word of bond, on
this matter to the Senate and People of Rome.
Ceremonials I can do!
>
> 8) (snip - rogatores) Gaius Marius Merullus and T Labienus Fortunatus
>
Venii: Congratulations!!!
>
> 9) (snip - curatrix sermo)Lucia Maria Fimbria
>
Venii: Vivat Comespiritu et Scutorum!
>
> I shall be issuing a final statement regarding the changes I have
> implemented and my term as dictator, but in brief I would like to thank
> all of the citizens of Nova Roma who have assisted me in the tasks
> assigned my by the Senate, and it is my fervent wish that I leave us
> all a stronger Republic than we had before.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Dictator
>
You are very welcome. Again, I thank you for your service.
Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator - Citizen, Quaestor, Lictore Curiata, etc.
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
Re: Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
Razenna razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:35:24 -0700 |
|
Is there yet a way, a place for the Senate to have deliberations? When last I queried you
you said that it was not yet ready.
C. Aelius Ericius.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
dean6886@--------) |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:30:03 -0500 (CDT) |
|
If everyone can use it who is currently in the Senate we could go to
a private Talk City chatroom for deliberations- at least for the
short-term.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
AC1917@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:37:27 EDT |
|
Salvete omnes,
I accept my appointment as Lictore Curiata. I vow to fulfill my obligations
with honor.
SPQR!
Camillus Severus Antoninus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
"RCW" alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:41:35 -0700 |
|
Oh I also accept my appointment as Lcitor Curiata.
L. Cornelius Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=100065242212067005015098190036129" >AC1917@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Various Edicta (Important!)
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=100065242212067005015098190036129" >AC1917@--------</--------;
>
> Salvete omnes,
> I accept my appointment as Lictore Curiata. I vow to fulfill my
obligations
> with honor.
> SPQR!
> Camillus Severus Antoninus
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
dean6886@--------) |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:47:29 -0500 (CDT) |
|
I also accept my appointment as a Lictore Curiata.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:12:23 -0400 |
|
Email.
As I said before, as is stated in the Lex.
Email.
----- Original Message -----
From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 8:35 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Various Edicta (Important!)
> From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
>
> Is there yet a way, a place for the Senate to have deliberations? When
last I queried you
> you said that it was not yet ready.
>
> C. Aelius Ericius.
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,
> NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR.
> Apply online today! <a href="http://www.onelist.com/ad/nextcard1" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/ad/nextcard1</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@--------) |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:34:55 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, Dctator Germanicus;
Sir, I most humbly accept the most kindly offered appointments to
Lictore Curiatia, Tribunis Militarium and the restoration of myself as
the head of the Sodalitas Militarium.
I further would like to thank you for a tremendous amount of work
devoted to Nova Roma, in repairing and strengthening of the Constitution
and procedures of the NR government. I fear that I have not been much
help in that area as I am still in a learning mode in regard to many of
the finer points of the law, but am sure that I shall be able to master
them before long
Also, may I be so bold as to thank your lovely wife for her forebearance
and patience during this ordeal. The heavy tasks sometimes fall hard
upon those we cherish, and she has in my eyes at least, maintained a
balance very well in all this. I congratulate both yourself and her and
again yourself for the wise selection of such a special one as your
lovely wife.
My thanks also go to all those who have supported me in Nova Roma with
friendship, infomation and advice. I am most appreciative
Vale, Dictator Germanicus;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens.
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: Various Edicta (Important!) |
| From: |
Daniel Dreesbach dreesbach@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:30:17 -0700 (PDT) |
|
I also accept my appointment as a Lictore
Curiata. How do we proceed?
Gaius Iunius Germanus
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