| Subject: |
Re: Ten Commandments |
| From: |
"Tinnekke Bebout" tinnekke@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:27:56 GMT |
|
Salve Audens
I accept your apology
Vale
Cypria
|
| Subject: |
paenula (fwd) |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 02:45:47 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salvete! I received this request for information from a Catholic priest
tonight on where he might purchase a paenula. I did not know. I copied all
our info from our website and sent it to him in case he felt ambitious and
wanted to make one (it sounds like perhaps for a catechism class or
something) or have the children in the class make it. Is there someone in
our reenactor community who might be able to help him? Please contact him
directly with the information if you can.
Valete,
Decius Iunius Palladius
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:12:45 -0500
From: "Ryberg, Fa-------- Jim" &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=061243014237127028015057190036129" &g--------mary@--------&l--------&g--------r>
To: <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=219056234112193209090218066036129208" >ce--------s@--------</a>
Subject: paenula
Do you know anyone who makes these for sale?
>>From some research, the paenula seems to be related to the Roman Catholic
priest's chasuble (casula), and I would like to have one to show children
and others.
Sincerely,
Rev. Paul L. Vasquez
|
| Subject: |
Re: International Law in Archaic Rome |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 03:27:57 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/11/1999 5:24:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< but I have borrowed and am on the last chapter of
War and Imperalism in Republican Rome. >>
So that is were it is, Lucius Cornelius. I had forgotten I lent it to you.
QFM
|
| Subject: |
Re: paenula (fwd) |
| From: |
SFP55@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 03:42:26 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/11/1999 11:46:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a> writes:
<< I received this request for information from a Catholic priest
tonight on where he might purchase a paenula. >>
Salvete!
The only paenula I know about is a hooded type of cloak that Romans wore.
Are you sure the spelling is correct?
Valete
Q. Fabius
|
| Subject: |
Re: TWINS |
| From: |
Zhonu@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 04:48:08 EDT |
|
Congratulations from every quarter.
C.Aelius Atticus
|
| Subject: |
Re: paenula (fwd) |
| From: |
Steven Robinson amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:31:34 -0700 |
|
Avete Omnes:
Venator here:
>
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 8/11/1999 11:46:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a> writes:
>
> << I received this request for information from a Catholic priest
> tonight on where he might purchase a paenula. >>
> Salvete!
> The only paenula I know about is a hooded type of cloak that Romans wore.
> Are you sure the spelling is correct?
> Valete
> Q. Fabius
>
Could this be a confusion with the decorative strips, i.e. panels, on
Byzantine court garb? Seems I read somewhere that Roman Catholic ritual
dress is more of Byzantium than Rome.
Amicus - Venii
|
| Subject: |
Re: paenula (fwd) |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@--------) |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:46:10 -0400 (EDT) |
|
As a matter of fact there are three views of the Roman Paenula in this
months Eagle which everyone should be recieving in the next few days.
Reference:
Hadrian's Wall In The Days of the Romans, Ronald Embleton and Frank
Graham, Publisher-Frank Graham, Newcastle Upon Tyne / UK, 1964, Page 152
If the good father wishes to contact me, I will provide him with a copy
of the picture, compliments of the Eagle and Nova Roma.
Marcus Minucius Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Fw: paenula (fwd) |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:02:06 -0400 |
|
---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:12:45 -0500
>From: "Ryberg, Father Jim" <>
>To: <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=219056234112193209090218066036129208" >ce--------s@--------</a>
>Subject: paenula
>
>Do you know anyone who makes these for sale?
>>>From some research, the paenula seems to be related to the Roman Catholic
>priest's chasuble (casula), and I would like to have one to show children
>and others.
>
>Sincerely, Rev. Paul L. Vasquez
Salve Paul
If you would like any information about Roman clothing, armor, weapons,
tactics etc. I highly suggest that you contact us at the following.
<a href="http://legioxx.webjump.com/" target="_top" >http://legioxx.webjump.com/</a>
By Matthew R. Amt
Commander, Twentieth Legion
9416 Rhode Island Ave.
College Park, MD 20740-1639
301-345-0582
&-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166014165146153033082190" >mamt@--------&--------a>
This is where Nova Roma got all its info from. Matthew will be happy to send
you whatever information you request. I scanned the diagram. Bonam Fortunam!
Vale, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
|
| Subject: |
A little off topic and maybe too long - De stultis sententiis et eorum periculo |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:41:14 -0400 |
|
Salvete omnes
Dexippus is right (ouch! It hurt to say that :)). The admixture of
religion - any religion - with the process of public education must be
vigorously opposed.
Yesterday I wrote to Cypria that she was paying more attention to the "Ten
Commandments" (an ironic banner to fly over the contents of the site) site
than it merited. Well, I was wrong. To the extent that anyone is listening
to, and taking seriously, drivel like the TC site, the drivel becomes very
dangerous.
I am shocked and dismayed at the decision by the Kansas Board of Education
to remove evolution from public school curricula in that state. There's a
blurb on this at url:
<a href="http://fullcoverage.yahoo.com/fc/US/Education_Curriculum_and_Policy/" target="_top" >http://fullcoverage.yahoo.com/fc/US/Education_Curriculum_and_Policy/</a>
The TC guy (I cannot bring myself to believe that it's a real organization),
as far as I know, is an unknown extremist writing all these ludicrous papers
and putting them online, for all I know, as a gag. Whereas the decision by
the Kansas board, well, that is going to impact the learning and development
of multitudes of children. I was stunned when I heard this on the radio
this morning. That this could happen in my lifetime in my own country is as
alarming to me as the fact of this week's LA shooting incident.
To me, this is a perfect example of the danger behind mixing religion and
education about which Dexippus was talking. On the face of it, I see
nothing wrong with posting the ten commandments here and there in a school,
nor in offering prayers to Yahweh or Christ in school; what's the harm in a
prayer to any deity that embodies creative/positive forces for the deity's
believers?
Well, the harm comes when people like these creationists come along and
decide to apply some quotes from their holy book to the process of educating
children, and wipe out science in the process. The power of religious
authority over all other facets of society suggests to me the Dark Ages of
Europe, when the stable institution left after the dissolution of the Empire
was the Christian church. How would you all like to see our grandchildren
living in a new dark age, led by creationists?
Bringing this post back toward Roma, one may say that the religious
authority of Roma was held above, and as a part of, everything else. So,
why does embracing Romanitas not equal in my mind going the route of the
creationists?
I invite others here to correct my misconception, but I believe that a key
element of the Roman way of thinking was a pragmatism utterly lacking in
more contemporary systems. This pragmatism recognized divinity and the need
to act in accordance with the gods, and yet, did not try to reconcile every
single facet of life with the gods. I think that this pragmatism is evident
in the following:
- the construction of large public works, bridges and aqueducts shows that
math and engineering were highly developed. I don't suggest that these
disciplines were invented by Romans, but they were accepted and applied by
them. Are there any known instances in which Romans rejected science
because it conflicted with the will of Iuppiter or another deity? There was
an expulsion of Greek philosophers in the middle Republic (during Cato the
Elder's term as censor?) -- was that expulsion this type of rejection of
science in favor of following the prescribed values/beliefs left by a deity
written in stone? I don't think so, but I could be wrong and again, would
like some comment if anyone has some.
- the relative tolerance/liberal view of other people's religions. I find
it hard to distinguish what the Religio Romana was exactly, partly because
the Romans seemed to view all the world's gods as real. Was Magna Mater a
Roman goddess? Yes and no? And the process of adopting deities into the
Roman circle seemed to go on right up into imperial period, with widespread
worship of Mithras in the legions, and Isis and others too. The Romans did
not seem to bother to be afraid of other religions -- if you think about it,
this is a statement of amazing power of Religio Romana, that it persisted
and grew after exposure to other traditions, rather than being "replaced"
(until the late empire of course - the displacement of the old religion by
Christianity seems to me to have begun much earlier in urban centers and
progressed slowly outside them - I invite clarification and correction on
these points too).
- the changes within the Roman system of government over time. The
evolution of magistracies, from a couple of praetors, to the establishment
of dual consuls with varying numbers of lesser magistrates, the steady
inclusion of the plebeians in the affairs of state, the rule of law with the
introduction of new laws to suit new circumstances -- these things
demonstrate to me a system that evolved to meet the needs of the nation in a
dynamic way -- top-to-bottom and bottom-to-top -- wholly incompatible with
theocracy. It seems to me that the Romans understood that their state
structures were in accordance with the gods, and that was that -- neither
Iuppiter nor any other deity was expected to "micromanage" the government.
The assemblies couldn't be convened on certain days for religious reasons,
the consuls could not take their oath if the augurs said that they
shouldn't; but once the consuls did take that oath, they and not the augurs
were in charge of the republic.
I would be most interested to hear the view of our Pontifex Maximus on the
above. Is it more Roman to be pragmatic as I'm describing here, or to be
creationist or something akin to the latter?
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: paenula (fwd) |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:49:59 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------; wrote:
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 8/11/1999 11:46:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a> writes:
>
> << I received this request for information from a Catholic priest
> tonight on where he might purchase a paenula. >>
> Salvete!
> The only paenula I know about is a hooded type of cloak that Romans wore.
> Are you sure the spelling is correct?
> Valete
> Q. Fabius
Yes, the hooded cloak, that is what he is looking for. I saw a picture of
one today in the just arrived and looking good Eagle, it is similar to
something I have see RC priests wear.
D. Iunius Palladius
|
| Subject: |
Paenula |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:31:57 -0400 |
|
[This message contained attachments]
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pragmatic Romans was (A little off topic and maybe too long) |
| From: |
SFP55@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:51:21 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/12/1999 10:44:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:
<< I believe that a key element of the Roman way of thinking was a pragmatism
utterly lacking in more contemporary systems. This pragmatism recognized
divinity and the need to act in accordance with the gods, and yet, did not
try to reconcile every single facet of life with the gods. I think that this
pragmatism is evident
in the following: >>
Salvete!
Romans believed that adding other cities deities to their pantheon only made
the Romans stronger. The Romans felt that everybody's culture had something
to offer the Roman. (Except for the Druids.) I think this is a big reason
that the Empire lasted as long as it did. And why we admire the Romans so.
As for the question, it was the Christianized empire that rejected clever
innovation.
If the Romans ignored technology (which seems to be big criticism against
them) remember that their economics were built on slave labor. Technology
would change all that. The steam engine by Hiero of Alexandria, was never
adopted by even the Egyptian locals because the slave traders led an
injunction and bribed the magistrates to ignore the design.
The Romans were marvelous adapters. You can only look at their military
history to see that. They used the Etruscan military system (the phalanx)
until they came up against an enemy the phalanx was useless against (the
Gauls). They then adopted others' style of fighting, but improved on it.
They adopted the Gaulic armor, adopted formations from the Oscans, and
eventually beat all their enemies. In the third century CE the Romans,
understanding that cohors legio was being outdated and outclassed, by their
mounted enemies, attempted to retool their army to increase their horse. By
this time the actual "Romans" were no longer the military caste, and the
innovation was sluggish and often incomplete. It wasn't until the Emperor
Maurice started, and Heraclius successfully completed the reorganization of
the Roman army did it become cavalry dominant. By this time even though they
referred to themselves as Romanoi in their writing we call them Byzantines.
Valete
Q. Fabius
|
| Subject: |
Re: A little off topic and maybe too long - De stultis sententiis ... |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:10:16 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/12/99 1:43:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:
<< To me, this is a perfect example of the danger behind mixing religion and
education about which Dexippus was talking. On the face of it, I see
nothing wrong with posting the ten commandments here and there in a school,
nor in offering prayers to Yahweh or Christ in school; what's the harm in a
prayer to any deity that embodies creative/positive forces for the deity's
believers? >>
What's wrong is that why does it have to be Christ or Yahweh? If you are
going to force prayer in the school, why to these deities? Why not to Zeus,
Jupiter, Minerva, Buddha, Allah, Lao Tsu, Morrigan, Brigid, Odin, or other
deity?
Prayer in school? Fine...but leave the deity up to the individual! If
not...keep it out totally!
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pragmatic Romans was (A little off topic and maybe too long) |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:11:38 EDT |
|
In --------ss--------d-------- 8/12/99 2:52:00 PM E--------rn D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
writes:
<< The Romans felt that everybody's culture had something
to offer the Roman. (Except for the Druids.) >>
Actually NO! The only Druids persecuted were those in Britania because they
opposed Roman Rule. The Druids in Gaul (modern France) were left alone.
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: A little off topic and maybe too long - De stultis sententiis ... |
| From: |
Diomus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:21:20 EDT |
|
In --------ss--------d-------- 8/12/99 4:11:17 PM E--------rn D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
writes:
<< << To me, this is a perfect example of the danger behind mixing religion
and
education about which Dexippus was talking. On the face of it, I see
nothing wrong with posting the ten commandments here and there in a school,
nor in offering prayers to Yahweh or Christ in school; what's the harm in a
prayer to any deity that embodies creative/positive forces for the deity's
believers? >>
What's wrong is that why does it have to be Christ or Yahweh? If you are
going to force prayer in the school, why to these deities? Why not to Zeus,
Jupiter, Minerva, Buddha, Allah, Lao Tsu, Morrigan, Brigid, Odin, or other
deity? >>
Yes...and at least neither Buddha or Odin were (are) such gods as to
destroy the world's population once with water and then promise to do it
again with fire (a task even Adolf Hitler never dreamed to accomplish).
Jesus and Yahweh might represent "creative/positive" forces for Christians
but for the increasingly diverse American religious culture they represent
forces far less than creative or positive.
The truth of the matter is nonChristian religions (especially eastern
religions) have dramatically increased in size here in America since the
1970s and probably will continue to do so. "I am the LORD (Yahweh) your god.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me" works fine for many people but for
a rapidly increasing minority it is rude and offensive. I cast my vote
along side Dex on this one.
Vale,
Flavius Lucianius Diomus
|
| Subject: |
Nundina proxima |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:28:45 -0400 |
|
Salvete cives
Does anyone know when the next Nova Roma market day will be? Do we still
have those?
While we're looking at calendars, where's ours? I was going to check for
upcoming holidays and where the ides would fall.
Valete
CMM
|
| Subject: |
Re: Pragmatic Romans was (A little off topic and maybe too long) |
| From: |
Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:16:50 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:
> << The Romans felt that everybody's culture had something
> to offer the Roman. (Except for the Druids.) >>
> Actually NO! The only Druids persecuted were those in Britania because they
> opposed Roman Rule. The Druids in Gaul (modern France) were left alone.
Salve,
Good thing I'm an Irish Druid. ;)
Vale et khaire,
-Kyrinia
===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at <a href="http://auctions.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://auctions.yahoo.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: A little off topic and maybe too long - De stultis sententiis ... |
| From: |
Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:20:06 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:
> What's wrong is that why does it have to be Christ or Yahweh? If you are
> going to force prayer in the school, why to these deities? Why not to Zeus,
> Jupiter, Minerva, Buddha, Allah, Lao Tsu, Morrigan, Brigid, Odin, or other
> deity?
> Prayer in school? Fine...but leave the deity up to the individual! If
> not...keep it out totally!
Salve,
What's Latin for "amen"? All I know is Irish's "biodh se/".
BIODH SE/.
*smile* Of course I agree with you on this one... but that's beside the point.
I think that there would be *very* conservative Christians who would be *very*
upset if I starting handing out pamphlets asking them if they heard the word of
Apollo lately, and requested specific prayer to Him in school. ;)
IMO, religion belongs at home; schools and government have no right to have a
say in it.
Vale et khaire,
-Kyrinia
===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at <a href="http://auctions.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://auctions.yahoo.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Nundina proxima |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:43:48 -0400 |
|
Salve,
> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
> Salvete cives
>
> Does anyone know when the next Nova Roma market day will be? Do we still
> have those?
>
> While we're looking at calendars, where's ours? I was going to check for
> upcoming holidays and where the ides would fall.
In my role as curator araneum (webmaster), I've asked the collegium
pontificum to work up the materials for the calendar. That's one of their
varied responsibilities, and since they've got their communications problems
(apparently) solved, I'm sure they're on the case. As soon as I get
something from them, up it goes on the web site!
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
|
| Subject: |
Re: A little off topic and maybe too long - De stultis sententiis ... |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:59:36 -0400 |
|
Salve,
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
> What's wrong is that why does it have to be Christ or Yahweh? If you are
> going to force prayer in the school, why to these deities? Why not to
Zeus,
> Jupiter, Minerva, Buddha, Allah, Lao Tsu, Morrigan, Brigid, Odin, or other
> deity?
>
> Prayer in school? Fine...but leave the deity up to the individual! If
> not...keep it out totally!
I couldn't agree more with our esteemed Dexippus. To have a
school-sponsored, institutionalized prayer places an enormous pressure upon
the kids. Modern stereotypes notwithstanding, kids (especially the younger
ones) are extremely impressionable and respond to what they see from
authority figures. And it is exactly that vulnerability to impression that
makes it doubly dangerous to impose _any_ sort of religious instruction or
practice on students in school.
Think about this; what would people say if the argument was being made to
post the Nine Satanic Statements in schools, and have a moment of invocation
to Lucifer? It may seem like a ludicrous argument, but to some
non-Christians the prospect of Christian intrusion into the public schools
is just as objectionable.
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
|
| Subject: |
Re: paenula (fwd) |
| From: |
Steven Robinson amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:25:19 -0700 |
|
Avete Omnes;
Venator here:
And I sit here, now with the correct information for my future knowledge.
Vale - Venii
|
