Subject:	Election Announcment
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:49:50 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete Cives Novae Romae!

This is an edict laying out the dates and rules for the upcoming vote in
the Comitia Centuriatia, during which the empty seat of consul will be
filled and proposed laws voted on. This is sort of a pre-edict, for three
days before the election starts I will proclaim an edict stating the exact
days of the election, who the candidates running are and what laws I will
put forward to be voted on in the Comitia Centuriatia.

The election by law must last at least two market days. As there has been
a recent dispute in the calendar, the dates I shall put forward will
encompass both sets of dates. An official reformation of the calendar can
wait until after the election.

The auspices having been taken and the omens being good, the Comitia
Centuriatia will be convened on August 26. Voting shall continue until
September 7. This will keep us within the law, which specifies that
elections shall be held (or at least begin) within 30 days of an office
being vacated. The office of consul was declared officially vacated August
2, the day after Flavius Vedius Germanicus stepped down as dictator.
Unfortunately, this vote could not be held until after the Senate
completed voting on the actions of Flavius Vedius. This was completed last
week.

I shall post the edict convening the Comitia Centuriatia on Monday, August
23. Citizens wishing to run for the office of consul have between now and
11:00 PM (2300) EST, Monday, August 23 to declare themselves candidates.
At that time, no one else will be allowed to stand for office. I will then
proclaim an edict listing the names of the candidates. I will also post
some laws that will be voted on. These proposed laws will be presented to
the People for review within the next few days.

The campaign period will run from the time a candidate declares, until
polls close September 7. This will allow a decent length for a campaign
season, though of course, the closer to the end of the season, the fewer
voters there will be to win over.

Voter codes will be issued between now and the beginning of next week.

The position of plebeian aedile is also open. I do not know if the
Tribunes of the Plebs will convene the Comitia Plebis to fill the
vacant spot or not.


May the Gods continue to guide, protect and bless our Republic.


In service to Rome,


Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul of Nova Roma

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus

Subject:	Re: Re: Meeting at Caesars Palace
From:	George VanDeWater <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=251166234193056045244038203219129208071" >VanDeWGe@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:07:58 -0600

Salvete,

Caesar's in Las Vagas would work well for those of us here in Astroccidentalis (if there are any). I would be willing to help where I can as I live in the Utah area.

Valete,
G. Africanus

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:23:03 -0400

Salvete Quirites

>This is an edict laying out the dates and rules for the upcoming vote in
>the Comitia Centuriatia, during which the empty seat of consul will be
>filled and proposed laws voted on. This is sort of a pre-edict, for three
>days before the election starts I will proclaim an edict stating the exact
>days of the election, who the candidates running are and what laws I will
>put forward to be voted on in the Comitia Centuriatia.

How are we to pick spokespersons for our Tribes and Centuries if we don't
know who is in our Tribe? Where is this information posted? Why is it not
posted?

<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/constitution_old.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/constitution_old.html</a>
Article IV: The Comitiae and Elections
1.The comitia populi is convened by either a Consul or Praetor Urbanis.
<SNIP> Each tribe shall elect one of its members to speak for it in those
matters that shall be refered to the comitia populi; such speakers shall be
appointed for life.

2. The comitia centuriata is convened by a Consul. <SNIP> Each century shall
elect one of its members to speak for it in those matters that shall be
refered to the comitia centuriata; such speakers shall be appointed until
the comitia is released by a Consul.

3. The comitia plebis is convened by a Tribune of the Plebs<SNIP>Each tribe
shall elect one of its members to speak for it in those matters that shall
be refered to the comitia plebis; such speakers shall be appointed until the
comitia is released by a Tribune of the Plebs.

>The election by law must last at least two market days.

Where is this Law posted. When was it voted on? How was it voted on? Who
voted on it?

This is what is posted on the Elections and Voting Procedures page.
<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/procedures.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/procedures.html</a>
"There is no set time frame on votes concerning laws; a deadline for voting
is included with the bill itself. With the advent of the Internet and
electronic communications, a voting period of a week to ten days seems to be
optimal, and it is usual to entertain a discussion on the issue at hand
(known as a contio) before an actual call for a vote is made."

>Unfortunately, this vote could not be held until after the Senate
>completed voting on the actions of Flavius Vedius. This was completed last
>week.

(How appropriate that a picture of Augustus up on the website since we are
not a Republic anymore). You see they have still not done anything by the
Constitution.
<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/constitution_old.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/constitution_old.html</a>

ART. III sec.2 no. 2 "Two Consuls shall be elected, and shall be the
highest-ranking magistrates in Nova Roma. Each Consul shall have the
following powers:
2.veto over the actions of his or her fellow Consul, and over the actions of
lesser magistrates;"

Firstly, Cassius is guilty of taking the website and giving control to
Germanicus. Palladius AND I appointed Marcus Martianus "webmaster" and I
vetoed any change.

ART. V sec. 2 "The Senate shall be convened by one or both of the serving
Consuls..."

Secondly, I vetoed the action to bring a vote to the Senate to make anybody
dictator.

Now this makes all of their changes illegal under their own constitution.
And for a final insult to us the constitution says that IF a dictator takes
any
actions they must be apporved by the Senate AND Citizens of Nova Roma, not
just the Senate.

ART.III, sec.9 "In times of emergency, as determined by the Senate, a
Dictator may be appointed by the Senate, to serve for a term not to exceed
that of the emergency, not to exceed six months. The dictator shall function
as the supreme magistrate and not be subject to veto or recall by the
Senate, and shall hold imperium. After his or her term of office has
expired, the actions of the Dictator will be subject to review and final
permanent approval by the Senate and Citizens of Nova Roma. "

So even IF Germanicus were legally appointed, they would still need to form
the Tribes to make his changes legal.

So until the Citizens vote to approve the actions of the Dictator I'm still
Consul Anyway. Also, Marcus Martianus should be returned as Co-webmaster,
this is what we wanted from the beginning anyway! Right Palladius?.


>Voter codes will be issued between now and the beginning of next week.


Until the Citizens vote spokespersons there can't be any votes legally held.

>May the Gods continue to guide, protect and bless our Republic.
>Decius Iunius Palladius, Consul of Nova Roma

I guess we need to form a republic before it can be blessed, guided and
protected.
I'm sorry to be such a pain everyone, but someone needs to see that things
are done according to the Constitution. I must say for someone who is
accused of "subverting" the constitution I seem to be the only one who
actually cites the document.
So, why do we not have the Tribes posted so that we may begin to consider
those things to be done in proper order? This is all I have asked for since
the begining of the year, the main goal of this year for me was the Proper
function of the Government.


Valete, Consul Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
Mars Nos Protegis!

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:38:38 -0700

Salve Civies and Cin

<Snip everything Cin wrote>

You are citing the Old Constitution, The old Constitution that is no longer in
effect as a governing force in Nova Roma. If you have any legal questions or
concerns, Please feel free to raise them. We, the Magistrates of Nova Roma will
respond. But please do cite the new Governing document of Nova Roma. Which is
the Constitution and supporting documents which were passed by the Senate of
Nova Roma last week.

May all of our Gods Bless and Protect Nova Roma.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
Praetor Urbanus et Senator

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:12:34 -0400

Salvete, Quirites

>Salve Civies and Cin
>
That would be.... Salvete (plural of Salve) Cives et Lucius Equitius

><Snip everything Cin wrote>

Humm, Why would you do that? You usually leave everything from the previous
post. Could be you don't have any truthful answers.
>
>You are citing the Old Constitution, The old Constitution that is no
longer in
>effect as a governing force in Nova Roma the Constitution and supporting
documents which were passed by the Senate of Nova Roma last week.
>L. Cornelius Sulla Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia Praetor Urbanus et
Senator

How was it changed legally??? OR did we have a civil war and it just was all
thrown out??? ANY changes must be passed by the Citizens and Senate not just
the Senate. What are you citing? Why would you just "snip" everything I
wrote??? Don't try to whitewash it. Do you really think everyone is
ignorant?

Where are the Tribes and Centuries??? Why don't the Citizens ever get to
vote??

Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus... oh, Paterfamilias, etc,

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:23:10 -0700

Lucius wrote:

> From: "Lucius" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
>
> Salvete, Quirites
>
> >Salve Civies and Cin
> >
> That would be.... Salvete (plural of Salve) Cives et Lucius Equitius
>
> ><Snip everything Cin wrote>
>
> Humm, Why would you do that? You usually leave everything from the previous
> post. Could be you don't have any truthful answers.

Oh you who speak of the truth who told me when I called you, that it was
Germanicus and Claudia who tried to exile me to Rhodes when I have the document
with Palladius's Veto that it was YOU! Sure....lets speak of the truth.... :)

>
> >
> >You are citing the Old Constitution, The old Constitution that is no
> longer in
> >effect as a governing force in Nova Roma the Constitution and supporting
> documents which were passed by the Senate of Nova Roma last week.
> >L. Cornelius Sulla Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia Praetor Urbanus et
> Senator
>
> How was it changed legally??? OR did we have a civil war and it just was all
> thrown out??? ANY changes must be passed by the Citizens and Senate not just
> the Senate. What are you citing? Why would you just "snip" everything I
> wrote??? Don't try to whitewash it. Do you really think everyone is
> ignorant?
>

The Constitution changed legally as was the Dictatorship, I have seen the
message board, I am positive you have too. The vote was started at 2:12 pm and
ended at 2:46 pm. There was nothing in the previous Constitution stipulating
you had to be notified at all. There is historical precident in this during the
Consulship of Gn. Pompeius Magnus and Marcus Licinus Crassus (Sp.) Therefore
Palladius did not technically violate the Constitution in having a vote reach
its conclusion in 34 min.

>
> Where are the Tribes and Centuries??? Why don't the Citizens ever get to
> vote??
>

That question needs to be directed at the standing Censors, Germanicus and
Palladius.

L. Cornelius Sulla

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:26:52 -0400

Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus has made some valid points and it seems to me
that before any election of a suffect consul, there must be a vote of the
people to ratify/approve the various acta of our erstwhile dictator. Until
such time as that occurs, legally speaking, the old constitution is in
operation and as long as the old constitution is in operation, concerns
about who speaks for tribes etc. are valid.

Now, that being said, it is obvious that previous elections have been held
without any concerns for tribal/centurial makeup -- how did you all get
elected before? If we look at the page cited by Cincinnatus:

<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/procedures.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/procedures.html</a>

... there is no mention at all of the tribes or centuries, so it seems to
me that that should be the guiding force and what should happen is the
following, if the election is to be considered legal:

1. A tribune of the plebs must convene an emergency meeting of the comitia
to vote on the ratification of the acta of Germanicus (this must be done as
quickly as possible and with all the efficiency expected of an emergency
vote). I don't think we want to set the precendent (or perhaps, follow the
ancient precedent) that non-dissent=assent.

2. As the voting is taking place, the Censors ought to be distributing
folks into tribes and centuries in anticipation of the election of the
suffect consul. This should, of course, have a priority to it and the
Censors should be allowed to appoint accensi to help them in their endeavours

2a. The list of tribal membership etc. should be posted to the list and/or
the aerarium as soon as realistically possible.

3. Once the acta of Germanicus have been ratified (if, in fact, they are),
then the election of the suffect consul should be formally announced; given
the time frame involved, it is probably wise to allow campaigning to begin
now (there is no law, near as I can tell) preventing candidates from
announcing their intentions to run early.


MPJ

]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:42:28 -0400

Salvete!

Here's the header from my diploma civitatis:

-------
Re---------Pa--------&l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=014158113165021154015057190036129" &g--------a----------------&l--------&g--------r> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:02:24 -0400
From: Decius Iunius &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=014158113165021154015057190036129" &g--------a----------------&l--------&g--------r> Reply-To: &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=014158113165021154015057190036129" &g--------a----------------&l--------&g--------r> To: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114232192237248190028232203026129208071" >dmeadows@--------</a>
Subject: Congratulations!
X-Hops: 1

To: Marcus Papirus Justus

Gens: Papiria
---------

Please note the date of the approval is prior to our dictator's stepping
down. That said, I was shocked to read the following:


At 10:23 AM 18/08/1999 -0700, you wrote:

The Constitution changed legally as was the Dictatorship, I have seen the
message board, I am positive you have too. The vote was started at 2:12 pm
and
ended at 2:46 pm. There was nothing in the previous Constitution stipulating
you had to be notified at all. There is historical precident in this
during the
Consulship of Gn. Pompeius Magnus and Marcus Licinus Crassus (Sp.) Therefore
Palladius did not technically violate the Constitution in having a vote reach
its conclusion in 34 min.

Respondeo:

The constitution has yet to be legally changed; the people have yet to vote
on it. As paterfamilias of the Gens Papiriae, I find it shocking that this
basic ratification by the people, guaranteed under the old constitution,
has been passed over. I demand that a vote be called -- where are our
tribunes? -- to ratify this lest we set the precedent that the people need
not ratify *anything*. I also shudder to think that we would take any
precedent from the consulship of Pompey and Crassus ... I shudder that
someone would even suggest it.

MPJ
]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	The Election process.
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:59:40 EDT

Salvete civvies!

As you no doubt can see, it's election time again. We all remember the last
one don't we, civvies? The scratching, the biting, the name calling, the one
man one vote, the unconstitutional process, blah blah blah.

So here we are again. And I ask you again are we ready? I don't think so.
So Senate, instruct the Censors to inform us the public exactly how this
process works. I do not care if it takes 3 pages. We need to know. Oh
include an example,
can't have rules without examples, so we understand.

We have no listing of the tribes, none of the centuries, inotherwords we are
back to where we started in Dec. And we all remember how that turned out.
We are at a crossroads. Before we do anything else, let us get the machinery
of the electoral process in place, before we use it. Even if that means
limping along with out a Consul for the rest of the year. And for those who
say it's ready, show it to us. Post here in the Forum. Don't hide it in the
Temple of Saturn.
We need to see it here. Here in the Forum.
Valete

Q. Fabius Maximus, Paterfamilias,
Curule Aedile, N Roma
Legatius, Angelium, California Provincia.

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:03:43 -0400

Salve,

Even if Cincinnatus were to accept the new constitution, the existence of
tribes and centuries for voting purposes is provided for in regards to
elections and must be addressed *prior* to an election being held.

Please note that I really know nothing about the inimicitia which appears
to exist between Cincinnatus and various others and I am not taking sides
in that/those dispute(s). I am merely pointing out what the old
constitution provided for, and what the new constitution provides for and
am trying to make sure that the NovaRomani do not let our republic spiral
into another episode requiring a dictator ...

MPJ


At 09:38 AM 18/08/1999 -0700, you wrote:
From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>

But please do cite the new Governing document of Nova Roma. Which is
the Constitution and supporting documents which were passed by the Senate of
Nova Roma last week.

]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:22:22 -0400

Salvete, Quirites
>
>Oh you who speak of the truth who told me when I called you, that it was
>Germanicus and Claudia who tried to exile me to Rhodes when I have the
document with Palladius's Veto that it was YOU! Sure....lets speak of the
truth.... :)

ALL the Truth Sulla not just the part you want.

Show it then where anyone asked that you be exiled. Show it.
Besides what has this to do with the price of tea in CHINA?
>>
>> How was it changed legally??? >>
>
>The Constitution changed legally as was the Dictatorship,

Like I said ALL those actions need to be ratified by the Senate AND
CITIZENS.

I have seen the
>message board, I am positive you have too. The vote was started at 2:12 pm
and ended at 2:46 pm. There was nothing in the previous Constitution
stipulating
>you had to be notified at all. There is historical precident in this
during the
>Consulship of Gn. Pompeius Magnus and Marcus Licinus Crassus (Sp.)
Therefore Palladius did not technically violate the Constitution in having a
vote reach its conclusion in 34 min.
>
Well, now we are getting to the matter aren't we. I don't need to be
'technical' to veto it though. That is spelled out in the Constitution.
>>
>> Where are the Tribes and Centuries??? Why don't the Citizens ever get to
>> vote??
>>
>That question needs to be directed at the standing Censors, Germanicus and
>Palladius. L. Cornelius Sulla


Well, I asked publicly so maybe we'll get an answer.

Valete, Lucius Equitius

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:23:29 -0400

Salvete,


>From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
>Salve,
>Even if Cincinnatus were to accept the new constitution, the existence of
>tribes and centuries for voting purposes is provided for in regards to
>elections and must be addressed *prior* to an election being held.
>MPJ


Respondeo:
The constitution has yet to be legally changed; the people have yet to vote
on it. As paterfamilias of the Gens Papiriae, I find it shocking that this
basic ratification by the people, guaranteed under the old constitution,
has been passed over. I demand that a vote be called -- where are our
tribunes? -- to ratify this lest we set the precedent that the people need
not ratify *anything*. I also shudder to think that we would take any
precedent from the consulship of Pompey and Crassus ... I shudder that
someone would even suggest it.
MPJ

Yes, this is the point. Thank you for stating it so clearly.

Valete, Lucius Equitius

Subject:	Comitia Plebis to ratify Germanicus' actions
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:01:39 +0100

Salvete Papiri et omnes

I've been reading your sugestions and concerns. Due to the urgency of the
matter, I could not wait for my coleague's opinion, and I hope he can
forgive me sending this email to the list.

Civis Papirius states:

>1. A tribune of the plebs must convene an emergency meeting of the comitia
>to vote on the ratification of the acta of Germanicus (this must be done as
>quickly as possible and with all the efficiency expected of an emergency
>vote). I don't think we want to set the precendent (or perhaps, follow the
>ancient precedent) that non-dissent=assent.
This is in accordance with the old Constitution, which says that the actions
of a Dictator must be ratified by the people. I say that we can only
validate the new Constitution according to the old. The Comitia Plebis
Tributa is the right place to do it, as it can enact laws. This is also in
accordance with the functions of the Tribunes.
I THINK THIS ASSEMBLY SHOULD BE CONVENED FOR THE SAKE OF THE CONSTITUTION
AND FUTURE STABILITY.
This will also prove that Nova Roma is a Res Publica despite some
accusations of the contrary.

Here are the subjects that MUST be brought before the people in order of
descending priority:
1 - Ratification of the actions of Dictator Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
already accepted by the Senate.
2 - Election of another Aedilis Plebis.

Valete omnes

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Tribunus Plebis, et coetera

Subject:	Re: The Election process.
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:11:41 -0400

Salvete Q Fabi et alii



>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
>
>As you no doubt can see, it's election time again. We all remember the
last
>one don't we, civvies? The scratching, the biting, the name calling

It wasn't all that bad, as I recall. What bothered me most about it was the
sense that we were going into it unprepared -- which we were, since the
process used did not comply with the (old) constitution.

>So here we are again. And I ask you again are we ready? I don't think so.
>So Senate, instruct the Censors to inform us the public exactly how this
>process works. I do not care if it takes 3 pages. We need to know. Oh
>include an example,
>can't have rules without examples, so we understand.

I am not a senator or censor, but, in my capacity of rogator will be
counting votes along with my colleague T Labienus Fortunatus. Since I have
this public office, I'll respond to your question to the extent that it
relates to the office of rogator, although I don't intend my response to
substitute for a report from the censors, nor do I pretend to speak for the
Senate or the censors.

Fortunatus and I have agreed on the basic procedures to communicate with
each other and the censors. We have agreed on a method and medium for
counting votes by means of spreadsheets. Each of us will count the votes,
and then we'll compare numbers to ensure against error. We shall be
counting votes by voter code, not by name; we'll never have access to the
names associated with codes, to guard against any suspicion of vote
tampering.

The legal basis for our work is contained in the lex "Lex Vedia de Ratione
Eligium" which can be viewed in the aerarium Saturni. A step-by-step book
of how we execute the vote counting function will be prepared, in English
and Latin, to assist future rogatores in duplicating, and improving, this
work.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
rogator


>
>We have no listing of the tribes, none of the centuries, inotherwords we
are
>back to where we started in Dec. And we all remember how that turned out.
>We are at a crossroads. Before we do anything else, let us get the
machinery
>of the electoral process in place, before we use it. Even if that means
>limping along with out a Consul for the rest of the year. And for those
who
>say it's ready, show it to us. Post here in the Forum. Don't hide it in
the
>Temple of Saturn.
>We need to see it here. Here in the Forum.
>Valete
>
>Q. Fabius Maximus, Paterfamilias,
>Curule Aedile, N Roma
>Legatius, Angelium, California Provincia.

Subject:	Re: Comitia Plebis to ratify Germanicus' actions
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:19:43 -0400

Salvete Quirites
>
>I've been reading your sugestions and concerns.
>Civis Papirius states:
>
>>1. A tribune of the plebs must convene an emergency meeting of the comitia
>>to vote on the ratification of the acta of Germanicus...

Gee, don't Patricians have any say???

>This is in accordance with the old Constitution, which says that the
actions
>of a Dictator must be ratified by the people. I say that we can only
>validate the new Constitution according to the old. The Comitia Plebis
>Tributa is the right place to do it, as it can enact laws. This is also in
>accordance with the functions of the Tribunes.

Once again, what about the Patricians??

>I THINK THIS ASSEMBLY SHOULD BE CONVENED FOR THE SAKE OF THE CONSTITUTION
AND FUTURE STABILITY.
>This will also prove that Nova Roma is a Res Publica despite some
>accusations of the contrary.

Let's see the Comita Populi, Comitia Centuriata and the Comitia Plebis
posted for all to see.

>Here are the subjects that MUST be brought before the people in order of
>descending priority:
>1 - Ratification of the actions of Dictator Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>already accepted by the Senate.

Humm, Isn't this putting the cart before the horse. Plus, all citizens must
vote Plebian AND Patrician.

>2 - Election of another Aedilis Plebis.
>Valete omnes,Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>Tribunus Plebis, et coetera


I hope someone will make themselves a candidate this year.

Valete, Lucius Equitius

Subject:	Re: The Election process.II
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:24:56 EDT

In a message dated 8/18/1999 12:14:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:

<< The legal basis for our work is contained in the lex "Lex Vedia de Ratione
Eligium" which can be viewed in the aerarium Saturni. A step-by-step book
of how we execute the vote counting function will be prepared, in English
and Latin, to assist future rogatores in duplicating, and improving, this
work.<<
Salve
Thank you Gaius Marius Merullus, rogator of Rome. Such a book is needed.
Vale.
Q Fabius

Subject:	My Return and Oath of Office
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Augustina=20Iulia=20Caesaria=20Nocturnia?= <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243089020012185237172149141056243012000102196196169130152150" >a_i_c_nocturnia@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:32:42 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Omnes!

Due to various email difficulties I have not been active on this list
since my return to the UK.
I apologise for any inconvenience.

And now my oath:

I, Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the
honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of
the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As the Legatus Britannia Septentrionalis of Nova Roma, I, Caius Aelius
Ericius swear to do
honor to the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,
and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia further swear to fulfill the
obligations
and responsibilities of the office of Senator of Nova Roma to the
best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and
favor, do I accept the position of Senator of Nova Roma and all
the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities
attendant thereto.

Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia

===
Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia
Materfamilias of the Gens. Iulia Caesaria, the second British Gens to join the Republic of Nova Roma (www.novaroma.org)

meum est propositum
in taberna mori
ut sint vina proxima
morientes ori

Subject:	Re: Comitia Plebis to ratify Germanicus' actions
From:	"M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:36:48 -0400

At 03:19 PM 18/08/1999 -0400, you wrote:
Gee, don't Patricians have any say???

Respondeo:

I've been waiting anxiously to see if someone would ask that. Here's the
situation ... I'm but a civis privatus, from a plebeian gens, and from my
point of view our consul has just tried to subvert the constitution
(whether intentionally or unintentionally, I'm not sure). Had he intended
to act legally (or if his consilium were to give him proper advice) he
would have convened a meeting of the comitia centuriata to provide
ratification of the acta Germanicana prior to announcing the election. But
he did not do so, and near as I can tell from the span of time between the
election announcement and this current discussion, does not intend to. I
might also add secondarily that the patres of the senate are, as far as I
can tell, all patricii, the vote of the senate might very well be
interpreted as synonymous with ratification by the patricii. While that
latter point is quibblable, it nonetheless behooved me as a plebeian
citizen of Nova Roma to appeal to my traditional protector -- a tribune --
when it became clear to me that the constitution was in danger.

MPJ
]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: The Election process.II
From:	"M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:47:56 -0400

Salvete,

... on which subject, I think we ought to note as well that the aerarium
Saturni claims that " The following laws have been enacted by either the
comitia centuriata, comitia populi tributa, or comitia plebis tributa."
and, of course, none of the laws there (all leges Vediae) have been so
enacted. Of course, they haven't even been ratified 'by the people'. As
such, it seems dangerous to me that these laws have apparently been
inscribed in bronze and posted at eye level for all to see, and yet do not
yet have the status of law ...

MPJ


At 03:24 PM 18/08/1999 EDT, you wrote:
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;

In a message dated 8/18/1999 12:14:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:

<< The legal basis for our work is contained in the lex "Lex Vedia de Ratione
Eligium" which can be viewed in the aerarium Saturni. A step-by-step book
of how we execute the vote counting function will be prepared, in English
and Latin, to assist future rogatores in duplicating, and improving, this
work.<<
Salve
Thank you Gaius Marius Merullus, rogator of Rome. Such a book is needed.
Vale.
Q Fabius

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]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:59:07 -0400

Salvete M Papiri et alii



>From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
>
>Even if Cincinnatus were to accept the new constitution, the existence of
>tribes and centuries for voting purposes is provided for in regards to
>elections and must be addressed *prior* to an election being held.

That is true. The new, or Germanican if you will, constitution, like the
Cassian/Vedian ("old") one, calls for the formation of tribes and centuries,
from which voting assemblies are then formed for elections or passage of
laws/plebiscites depending on the particular assembly and occasion. I trust
the censors, Germanicus and Palladius, to complete the formation of the
tribes and centuries.
>

>in that/those dispute(s). I am merely pointing out what the old
>constitution provided for, and what the new constitution provides for and
>am trying to make sure that the NovaRomani do not let our republic spiral
>into another episode requiring a dictator ...

I believe that clarity about the law and everyone's responsibilities
stemming from it is essential to Nova Roma's success. Clarity is also
needed in analyzing history. In the case of Nova Roma and elections, I can
say the following confidently:

i I became a citizen last September; the Cassian/Vedian constitution had
been "passed" before my joining,
ii The Cassian/Vedian consitution was never fully implemented, in that the
tribes and centuries were never formed -- indeed, as far as I know, no basis
or method for their formation was ever formally adopted by the censors
(other people -- Iulianus, Palladius, Cincinnatus, the old Senate et alii -
of course know more about this than I do),
iii The Impeachment/Interregnum events were accompanied by some resignations
and self-imposed exiles of prominent citizens and left Nova Roma with a
dictator who introduced a new constitution, with several supporting laws
attached. An important difference between the old and new bodies of law is
that, under the old one, speakers were built into the constitutional article
on assemblies (see today's message from L Equitius Cincinnatus); whereas,
the new body of law has, quite correctly, removed the speakers from the
process - if you're interested in a boring illustration of how awkward and
semi-feasible voting might have been under the best of circumstances with
speakers, I'd be happy to dig up my old proposal on voting mechanics, which
I submitted a long time ago to the old Senate.

Based on the above, I don't believe that the C/V constitution would ever be
implemented, no matter how hard and well it were championed. If it was ever
going to be implemented, it would have been implemented last year, or early
this year.

Even if one could turn the clock back to the end of June (absurd and
impossible of course) by declaring the C/V constitution to be in force and
all the then-in-office magistrates to be restored to their offices, why
should anyone believe that the results would differ significantly? I would
expect that we would have another attempt to impeach someone, and another
interregnum, civil war, or equivalent. The difference is, far fewer people
would be left when the lights came back on. And we'll all have wasted our
time.

Of course, this is just my own point of view. Perhaps you or someone else
here could provide an example of a dictator's actions being overturned in
Roma Antiqua? Were the actions of the ancient Cincinnatus approved by an
assembly? Which one? How about Sulla's actions? I wouldn't think that
many of his actions would have been approved by the people, and, to the
extent that they were, the voting bodies must have been massively altered in
advance of any voting. Please correct my misconception.

I put my trust in Germanicus and Palladius to complete the formation of the
tribes and centuries.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
>
>MPJ
>
>
>At 09:38 AM 18/08/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
>But please do cite the new Governing document of Nova Roma. Which is
>the Constitution and supporting documents which were passed by the Senate
of
>Nova Roma last week.

Subject:	Re: Comitia Plebis to ratify Germanicus' actions
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:13:12 +0100

Salvete

>Gee, don't Patricians have any say???
I thought about that too. Nevertheless, we should not forget that the laws
passed by the Comitia Plebis concern all citizens, patrician or plebeian.
Nevertheless, if there is a Comitia where the subject is more properly
voted, I will accept it as well. I just want to say that in case no other
magistrate will convene a Comitia, I shall do it.

Valete

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Tribunus Plebis

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Comitia Plebis to ratify Germanicus' actions


>From: "Lucius" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
>
>Salvete Quirites
>>
>>I've been reading your sugestions and concerns.
>>Civis Papirius states:
>>
>>>1. A tribune of the plebs must convene an emergency meeting of the
comitia
>>>to vote on the ratification of the acta of Germanicus...
>
>Gee, don't Patricians have any say???
>
>>This is in accordance with the old Constitution, which says that the
>actions
>>of a Dictator must be ratified by the people. I say that we can only
>>validate the new Constitution according to the old. The Comitia Plebis
>>Tributa is the right place to do it, as it can enact laws. This is also in
>>accordance with the functions of the Tribunes.
>
>Once again, what about the Patricians??
>
>>I THINK THIS ASSEMBLY SHOULD BE CONVENED FOR THE SAKE OF THE CONSTITUTION
>AND FUTURE STABILITY.
>>This will also prove that Nova Roma is a Res Publica despite some
>>accusations of the contrary.
>
>Let's see the Comita Populi, Comitia Centuriata and the Comitia Plebis
>posted for all to see.
>
>>Here are the subjects that MUST be brought before the people in order of
>>descending priority:
>>1 - Ratification of the actions of Dictator Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>>already accepted by the Senate.
>
>Humm, Isn't this putting the cart before the horse. Plus, all citizens must
>vote Plebian AND Patrician.
>
>>2 - Election of another Aedilis Plebis.
>>Valete omnes,Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>>Tribunus Plebis, et coetera
>
>
>I hope someone will make themselves a candidate this year.
>
>Valete, Lucius Equitius
>
>
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>For details,
><a href=" <a href="http://www.onelist.com/info/news.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/info/news.html</a> ">Click Here</a>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Subject:	Re: Re: Election Announcment
From:	"M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:48:26 -0400

Salvete,

At 03:59 PM 18/08/1999 -0400, you wrote:
Of course, this is just my own point of view. Perhaps you or someone else
here could provide an example of a dictator's actions being overturned in
Roma Antiqua? Were the actions of the ancient Cincinnatus approved by an
assembly? Which one? How about Sulla's actions? I wouldn't think that
many of his actions would have been approved by the people, and, to the
extent that they were, the voting bodies must have been massively altered in
advance of any voting. Please correct my misconception.


Respondeo:

Let me note first that the old constitution specifically states that the
people must ratify the acta of the dictator; such a thing was unknown in
old Rome and, I honestly believe, was a contibutory factor to the downfall
of the Republic.

That said, you asked about Sulla's actions ... Sulla proclaimed many laws
as dictator, and a good chunk of them, actually, were later repealed by
various legislation. The best example of this was the lex Cornelia de
tribunis plebis (as it can be called) which limited the office of tribune
to senators and made it a dead end office (i.e. if you became tribune, you
could not stand for any other office). Any legislation proposed by a
tribune had to be approved by the senate and their right of veto was
limited somehow (perhaps taken away entirely) ... one of the first acts of
Pompey and Crassus was to do away with this law of Pompey (we won't mention
that Pompey's consulship in itself was a violation of the Lex Villia
Annalis -- which regulated the ages at which someone could stand for
various offices -- albeit with special dispensation from the senate). Sulla
also managed to take away much of the power of the censors (especially the
lectio senatus and handling of public contracts); again, that power was
restored by Pompey and Crassus.

The point of all this is pretty basic: right now Nova Roma differs from
Roma Antiqua primarily because of this agreement we apparently have to
follow a written constitution. The old constitution does not seem to have
been working, but *did* provide for the mechanism of the dictatorship which
was implemented and, apparently, tacitly approved (although I think
Cincinnatus might have valid objections on that score as well) ... that
mechanism provided for the ratification of any acta of a dictator upon his
setting down of that office. And such a thing makes sense. If such acta
*aren't* ratified, what's to prevent me from becoming a tribune of the
plebs (with concomitant moral authority), drawing up my own constitution
and having the people ratify that -- and do you think I *wouldn't* be able
to get 'the people' to approve of something? Whose constitution will have
more moral (and by extension, legal) force: one voted one by a dozen folks
or one voted on by hundreds? Indeed, I would not only have the people
ratify it, I would add onto it a sacramentum, to be binding upon everyone
in Nova Roma (i.e. everyone would have to swear to it, whether private
citizen, senator, etc.) to uphold the written constitution as ratified by
them.

That is to say, those who seem to think the popular ratification *isn't*
necessary are only opening themselves up to difficulties down the road (and
not very far down the road at that).

MPJ
]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Constitution and Dictatorship
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:08:41 EDT

Salvete omnes!

I would really like to hear from Germanicus, what he regards as
constitutional with regard to the ratification process of his acts as
dictator. I for myself see no other (constitutional) way than a vote by the
people in an appropriate comitia...

When Germanicus was appointed as dictator (7/4/99) the Senate passed a motion
put forward by consul Palladius with an explicitly mentioned intent and I
quote:

"Whereas any solution to the present crisis should and must be done in
accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma,"

In his last edict, Germanicus wrote:

"[...].I further enjoin the Senate to vote upon the ratification of my
actions in such manner as they shall see fit[...]"

As several people have pointed out before, the old constitution stipulates
that ratification of the actions of a dictator are no senate prerogative.
Therefore this last part of the edict is clearly unconstitutional.

The people have to be involved in the ratification as well. And as far as the
change of Constitution is concerned, I believe you will need a two thirds
majority as this seems to be the underlying logic of the old constitution.....

Having said all this, I would vote to ratify the acts of Germanicus just like
the Senate did, because they represent a tremendous and (in my view)
successful effort to avoid all this trouble in the future....

Marcus Marcius Rex,
citizen of Nova Roma

(Please forgive my English, I am not a native speaker of the language...)

Subject:	Language
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:25:35 -0400 (EDT)

Marcus Marcius Rex

Your English is just fine!!! You do better at it than many who live
here in the U.S. English and American have grown apart somewhat, but if
you can speak without slang, and in a polite manner both English and
Americans can understand one another.

Glad to have your opinions on the net, and welcome to the political
scene. It should be interesting!!!

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: The Undiluted Irish (was Aquae Sulis)
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:51:06 PDT

Salvete! Scripsit Kyrene Ariadne:

> > It strikes me, though, that any 'Celtic chieftain' civilized enough to
>build
> > thermae was also really a 'Roman'. Any barbari out there care to
>comment?
> > Vercingetorix? ;-P
>
>Many Irish would cringe to hear you say that. :)
>
>
>
>Valete et khairete,
>
>
>Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
>who doesn't mix her Roman with her Irish. ;)

- The tradition goes (or at least the bard who told me said so, I can't
remember his name) that the sacred spring at Caer Faddon, alias Aquae Sulis,
aka Bath, was first discovered by the Lord Bladud ap Lludd. He used them as
a curative mud-bath to improve his complexion, simply jumping in to the
muck along with some pigs who were accompanying him at the time. This is not
quite the same thing as building a thermae.

However, Kyrina, if you can find a single pre-Roman thermae in Hibernia,
I'll apologise to every one of your tuath. Personally. In Irish. Though I
can't imagine them cringeing (except maybe at the sound of my Irish).

Go mbeannai dhia Sulis Minerbha dhuit,

Vado.

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:29:53 -0400

Salve,

> From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
>
> Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus has made some valid points and it seems to me
> that before any election of a suffect consul, there must be a vote of the
> people to ratify/approve the various acta of our erstwhile dictator. Until
> such time as that occurs, legally speaking, the old constitution is in
> operation and as long as the old constitution is in operation, concerns
> about who speaks for tribes etc. are valid.

While the old constitution did, indeed, require the actions of an appointed
dictator, the new constitution makes no such condition. At the time the
question of the ratification of my actions was being voted on, the new
constitution was in force. To believe otherwise would be to believe that
everything somehow magically snapped back to a pre-dictatorship state solely
for the duration of the ratification vote, and I think all reasonable people
can agree that that doesn't make any sense. It certainly wasn't mentioned in
any law, edict, or section of either constitution.

According to the rules of the then-in-force constitution, the Senate was
required to ratify my actions, and did so according to its rules, with a
couple of exceptions (one of which, I'll point out, brought Cincinnatus back
as a citizen so we could all enjoy his oratory).

> Now, that being said, it is obvious that previous elections have been held
> without any concerns for tribal/centurial makeup -- how did you all get
> elected before? If we look at the page cited by Cincinnatus:

Quite simply, they got elected illegally. The old constitution did indeed
require that elections of magistrates be done according to centuries and two
different systems of tribes. In reality, they were held by popular election
by a simple majority. Thus, they were illegally held, and the magistrates
elected thereby held their offices illegally.

> <a href="http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/procedures.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/procedures.html</a>
>
> ... there is no mention at all of the tribes or centuries, so it seems to
> me that that should be the guiding force and what should happen is the
> following, if the election is to be considered legal:
>
> 1. A tribune of the plebs must convene an emergency meeting of the comitia
> to vote on the ratification of the acta of Germanicus (this must be done
as
> quickly as possible and with all the efficiency expected of an emergency
> vote). I don't think we want to set the precendent (or perhaps, follow the
> ancient precedent) that non-dissent=assent.

As said above, I think that the law is clear enough; at the time of the
ratification of my actions as dictator, the new constitution was in effect,
and therefore its requirements were followed. After all, if I was planning
on railroading things, I would have worded it so that no ratification was
required at all...

> 2. As the voting is taking place, the Censors ought to be distributing
> folks into tribes and centuries in anticipation of the election of the
> suffect consul. This should, of course, have a priority to it and the
> Censors should be allowed to appoint accensi to help them in their
endeavours

The final details of the citizen list are being worked on even as we speak.
Unfortunately, it was necessary to reconstruct some of the information, as
Cincinnatus had the only complete copy of the list, and some data had to be
re-entered.

> 2a. The list of tribal membership etc. should be posted to the list and/or
> the aerarium as soon as realistically possible.

If all goes as planned, it should happen this weekend. It hasn't been easy
redoing a couple of months' worth of work!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:33:12 -0400

Salve,

> From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
>
> Even if Cincinnatus were to accept the new constitution, the existence of
> tribes and centuries for voting purposes is provided for in regards to
> elections and must be addressed *prior* to an election being held.

You're entirely correct. We're already light-years ahead of where we were
last year at this time, because we've actually got a coherent system in
place for the assignation of tribes and centuries. (The tribes, I'll note,
are done; we are taking extra care with the calculation of the century
points-- given the fact that we had to redo a lot of work because
Cincinnatus had the only complete copy of the citizen list, I think it's
pretty good that it only took two weeks to recover three months' worth of
work.

Look for the citizen list being posted to the aerarium Saturnii this
weekend, complete with tribes and centuries.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Subject:	Re: The Election process.II
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:37:34 -0400

Salve,

> From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
>
> ... on which subject, I think we ought to note as well that the aerarium
> Saturni claims that " The following laws have been enacted by either the
> comitia centuriata, comitia populi tributa, or comitia plebis tributa."
> and, of course, none of the laws there (all leges Vediae) have been so
> enacted. Of course, they haven't even been ratified 'by the people'. As
> such, it seems dangerous to me that these laws have apparently been
> inscribed in bronze and posted at eye level for all to see, and yet do not
> yet have the status of law ...

Actually they do. According to my edict of July 30th (which was properly and
legally ratified by the vote of the Senate), "All edicta issued by me during
my tenure as dictator (both previous and subsequent to this edictum) shall
have legal precidence appropriate to their title as recorded in the aerarium
Saturnii. That is, edicta shall have the legal authority of edicta issued by
a dictator, Senatus consulta shall have the legal authority of an
ordinarily-passed Senatus consultum, et cetera. A law enacted by my edictum
may still be superceded by a law voted by the comitia, etc. Appointments are
to be regarded as having been made according to whatever normal legal and/or
constitutional process would be involved. All documents listed in the
"provisional documents" section of the aerarium Saturnii are hereby put into
effect as lex, decretum, Senatus consultum, constitution et cetera, as
appropriate."

Hope that clarifies that.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:40:01 -0700

Salvete Omnes.

Thank you Germanicus for this information hopefully all of our citizens will
be able to see once and for all that the new System of Government that Nova
Roma has is working much more smoothly and up and running. As we all know
you wrote the old system, so you know both systems probably much more
intimately than anyone else. With all the issues that other civies are
bringing up to all of our attentions, it is glad to know that the Tribes and
the Comitia are so close to being up and running and will definately be up
and running prior to these elections.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Praetor Urbanus et Senator
----- Original Message -----
From: Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Election Announcment


> From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> >
> Salve,
>
> > From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
> >
> > Even if Cincinnatus were to accept the new constitution, the existence
of
> > tribes and centuries for voting purposes is provided for in regards to
> > elections and must be addressed *prior* to an election being held.
>
> You're entirely correct. We're already light-years ahead of where we were
> last year at this time, because we've actually got a coherent system in
> place for the assignation of tribes and centuries. (The tribes, I'll note,
> are done; we are taking extra care with the calculation of the century
> points-- given the fact that we had to redo a lot of work because
> Cincinnatus had the only complete copy of the citizen list, I think it's
> pretty good that it only took two weeks to recover three months' worth of
> work.
>
> Look for the citizen list being posted to the aerarium Saturnii this
> weekend, complete with tribes and centuries.
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist: the best place to EXPLORE topics, SHARE ideas, and
> CONNECT to people with the same interests.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Subject:	Re: Re: Election Announcment
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:47:37 -0400

Salve,

> From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
>
> Let me note first that the old constitution specifically states that the
> people must ratify the acta of the dictator; such a thing was unknown in
> old Rome and, I honestly believe, was a contibutory factor to the downfall
> of the Republic.

Quite correct. Which is why the provision was removed from the new
constitution. After all, we're supposed to "endeavor to exist, in all
manners practical and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient
Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be
patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

> That said, you asked about Sulla's actions ... Sulla proclaimed many laws
> as dictator, and a good chunk of them, actually, were later repealed by
> various legislation.

Yes! Thank you! That is exactly the reason, in my decree of July 30th, I
stated that the laws and decrees and so forth that I made were to bear the
legal precidence of laws, decrees, etc. as appropriate. I specifically went
out of my way to make sure that the normal process of government could be
used by the People to overturn my actions as they saw fit, one at a time if
they wished. Don't like the way the tribes are formed? Change the Lex Vedia
Tributorum. It has the force of law, not the force of a dictatorial decree.
That was on purpose, so the voice of the People could be heard.

But as it stands, it's the Senate's job to ratify those edicts made with the
force of a dictator. And they did. Nova Roma didn't magically revert to its
pre-dictatorship status just because the vote of ratification was called.
The new constitution and laws were in force, and were followed to the
letter.

And similarly, the voice of the people can now be heard, according to the
law and the constitution. Something that was legally impossible before my
dictatorship.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Subject:	Question I have
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:48:42 -0700

Salvete Omnes.

I have a question, since Lucius Equitius has such concern for our political system, and voices his concerns to us publicly and privately. I do have a question. My question is Lucius Equitius, I have fought for your reentry into the Senate as I told you I would on our phone conversation, you needed to be back as a Senator and I told you I would support that, and I have. As of last week you have had an oppourtunity to reenter the Senate, and resume your religious office and most of the trappings that you once held. But up to this point you have remained silent, except to continue to view the Old Constitution as still valid, which as Germanicus as pointed out, is no longer valid. Are you going to resume your seat in the Senate? Are you going to resume your religious office? I understand your hostility towards just about everyone. But, its not like we are forcing you to be outside of the system anymore. You have a rightful place in the Senate and to have your voice heard amongst your peers and collegues. What is your decision?

L. Cornelius Sulla
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
Praetor Urbanus et Senator

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:54:37 -0400

Salvete!

At 07:29 PM 18/08/1999 -0400, Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

While the old constitution did, indeed, require the actions of an appointed
dictator, the new constitution makes no such condition. At the time the
question of the ratification of my actions was being voted on, the new
constitution was in force. To believe otherwise would be to believe that
everything somehow magically snapped back to a pre-dictatorship state solely
for the duration of the ratification vote, and I think all reasonable people
can agree that that doesn't make any sense. It certainly wasn't mentioned in
any law, edict, or section of either constitution.

Respondeo:

Just so folks know, this is what the old constitution said:

9.In times of emergency, as determined by the Senate, a Dictator may be
appointed by the Senate, to serve for a term not
to exceed that of the emergency, not to exceed six months. The
dictator shall function as the supreme magistrate and not
be subject to veto or recall by the Senate, and shall hold imperium.
After his or her term of office has expired, the
actions of the Dictator will be subject to review and final permanent
approval by the Senate and Citizens of Nova Roma.

This is what the new constitution said:

9.In times of emergency, as determined by the Senate, a Dictator may be
appointed by the Senate, to serve for a term not
to exceed that of the emergency, not to exceed six months. The
dictator shall function as the supreme magistrate and not
be subject to veto or recall by the Senate, and shall hold imperium.
After his or her term of office has expired, the
actions of the Dictator will be subject to review and final permanent
approval by the Senate and Citizens of Nova Roma.

However, here's the problem. The new constitution is *not* in force until
it has been subjected to review and permanent approval by the Senate *and*
citizens of NR. It's not a 'magical snap back', it's merely following the
rules of the in force constitution under which you actually took up the
office of dictator. I honestly don't see what the problem is ... it was
widely discussed on this list and many good changes were incorporated ...
I'm sure the vast majority of folks will approve it, so why the resistance?
I might also point out that in your final 'various edicta', you said "A law
enacted by my edictum may still be superceded by a law voted by the
comitia,", which basically means that one or more of the comitia could
overturn your constitution by a simple majority vote (until it is ratified,
your constitution is but another edictum). It's in your best interests and
Nova Roma's, to submit it to the people for ratification ...

Scripsit:
According to the rules of the then-in-force constitution, the Senate was
required to ratify my actions, and did so according to its rules, with a
couple of exceptions (one of which, I'll point out, brought Cincinnatus back
as a citizen so we could all enjoy his oratory).

Respondeo:

Until such time as your acta have been ratified by the people as well as
the senate, the in force constitution is the old one. I note that at no
time was a law passed which officially suspended the old constitution ...

<snip>

Scripsit:

As said above, I think that the law is clear enough; at the time of the
ratification of my actions as dictator, the new constitution was in effect,
and therefore its requirements were followed. After all, if I was planning
on railroading things, I would have worded it so that no ratification was
required at all...

Respondeo:

But as I said above, and as is clear from all constitutional authority, the
new constitution could *not* have been in effect and still isn't in effect
until such time as the *people* have ratified it. I'm not accusing you of
attempting to railroad things or anything of that sort ... all I'm saying
is that for the new constitution to have legal validity, it must be legally
established and it can only be legally established by ratification by the
people.

Scripsit:

The final details of the citizen list are being worked on even as we speak.
Unfortunately, it was necessary to reconstruct some of the information, as
Cincinnatus had the only complete copy of the list, and some data had to be
re-entered.

Respondeo:

That's good to hear ... making up the tribes and centuries, then, should be
an easy matter and we should be able to get this ratification vote done
rather quickly.

Scripsit:

If all goes as planned, it should happen this weekend. It hasn't been easy
redoing a couple of months' worth of work!

Respondeo:

Also good to hear ...

MPJ
]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: My Return and Oath of Office
From:	Steven Rob--------n <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015056190036129" >amgunn@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:41:29 -0700

Ave Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia,

I bid thee welcome home. Nice to see your name again.

In Amicus - Venator

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:06:34 -0400

Clarificatio of my previous post (darned cut and paste!)

The old constitution said in regards to ratification:

9.In times of emergency, as determined by the Senate, a Dictator may be
appointed by the Senate, to serve for a term not
to exceed that of the emergency, not to exceed six months. The
dictator shall function as the supreme magistrate and not
be subject to veto or recall by the Senate, and shall hold imperium.
After his or her term of office has expired, the
actions of the Dictator will be subject to review and final permanent
approval by the Senate and Citizens of Nova Roma.

The new one dicit:

Dictator. In times of emergency, the Senate may appoint a dictator to serve
a term not to exceed six months. At
the time of such appointment, the Senate may prescribe a given
task or boundaries within which the dictator is
obliged to remain. The edicts of the dictator are absolute within
his sphere of influence, and subject to neither
intercessio or provocato. The dictator shall hold Imperium and
have the honor of being preceeded by
twenty-four lictors. At the end of his term the actions of the
dictator shall be subject to final confirmation by the
Senate.


I think it's pretty clear that the new constitution cannot have any legal
force until the senate *and* people approve it. The people haven't, and
should. I don't think anyone will be able to take virtues such as honos,
gravitas and dignitas seriously if we allow this to simply pass us by. If
nothing else, think of the precedent that we're setting, quirites -- we're
basically saying that we tacitly approve any constitutional change that may
come along. That's a very dangerous precedent and probably an initial step
towards SPQNR becoming SNR ...

MPJ



]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: The Undiluted Irish (was Aquae Sulis)
From:	K--------e Ariadne <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200028091056078198169061186140081090177098100046209130" >k--------eariadne@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:32:12 -0700 (PDT)

--- Nicolaus Moravius <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a> wrote:
> Salvete! Scripsit Kyrene Ariadne:

Salvete! :)

How I love the subject header, BTW! "Undiluted Irish." Kinda like Guinness.
But from *Ireland*.

That's the stuff I want. It's rather different from the stuff we serve over in
the States....

*ahem* But I digress....

> > > It strikes me, though, that any 'Celtic chieftain' civilized enough to
> >build thermae was also really a 'Roman'. Any barbari out there care to
> >comment?
> > > Vercingetorix? ;-P
> >Many Irish would cringe to hear you say that. :)
> >Valete et khairete,
> >Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
> >who doesn't mix her Roman with her Irish. ;)
[...]
> However, Kyrina, if you can find a single pre-Roman thermae in Hibernia,
> I'll apologise to every one of your tuath. Personally. In Irish. Though I
> can't imagine them cringeing (except maybe at the sound of my Irish).

*grin*

Actually, I wasn't even referring to that.... what they would undoubtedly
cringe at would be considered "Roman"...their definitions of barbarism, I know,
are very different from the Roman standard. Celts are rather proud to be
Celts. Don't call them by another name within hearing range! ;) It may be
considered a compliment by the Romans, but well... tribal pride
notwithstanding....

Hence why I don't mix the two groups, Irish and Roman. Rome may have never
made it to Ireland, per se, but I like to be... shall I say... diplomatic?

Casual sidenote: actually, the Daghda and Apollo get along surprisingly well.
But it could be only because they're both stuck with me!

It's a touchy situation for someone like me, you see... I know the traditional
view that Caesar and the rest of the Romans held towards the Gauls, and one is
inclined to at least want to *defend* the Celtic people as a whole, being one
herself from birth and from spirit!


> Go mbeannai dhia Sulis Minerbha dhuit,

Oh, be still my heart... Irish.... And I understand it, too!

Dia Daghdha dhuit. :)

Are you a dual person too? The Irish got me first. Then Apollo came forward,
then Dionysos, et cetera.... Life's not been dull since.


Slan leat!


Valete et khairete,


-Kyrinia
who still likes her Harp and Guinness. :)




===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:03:35 -0400

Salve,

> From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
>
> However, here's the problem. The new constitution is *not* in force until
> it has been subjected to review and permanent approval by the Senate *and*
> citizens of NR. It's not a 'magical snap back', it's merely following the
> rules of the in force constitution under which you actually took up the
> office of dictator.

I think we have here an honest difference of interpretation. What, exactly,
does "ratify" mean? I believe it means to give a final "we agree with what
you did" to finalize my actions as Dictator. According to your
interpretation, while I was serving as dictator, my actions were mere
shadows; what I was doing wasn't "real" and the old forms and systems were
completely in place regardless of my edicts. Everything from the
invalidation of the (illegal) elections to the appointment of the lictores
was held in a limbo. We have no laws right now; they were "only" enacted by
a dictator. They have no force. Even during my dictatorship, my actions were
mere illusion, awaiting being given form by ratification under the old
system.

Come on. Any reasonable person must admit that this seems a bit absurd. My
actions as dictator were legal under the constitution-- old or new. They may
have been _temporarily_ legal, pending ratification by whatever body was
legally authorized to do so, but they were still legal. What I did was
legally valid during my term as dictator, and after (until the vote of
ratification), *including* the new constitution. The burden of positive
action lay with the Senate; they had the authority to overturn any of my
actions by refusing to ratify them. And they did! They did overturn two of
my decisions, both of which I thought to be very important to the prosperity
of our Republic. But, ever the power-hungry tyrant that Cincinnatus et al
say I am, I abided by the decision of the Senate.

> I might also point out that in your final 'various edicta', you said "A
law
> enacted by my edictum may still be superceded by a law voted by the
> comitia,", which basically means that one or more of the comitia could
> overturn your constitution by a simple majority vote (until it is
ratified,
> your constitution is but another edictum).

Except, unfortunately, that the edicts of a dictator are not laws. They have
a special authority that supercedes any other. That is precisely why I made
the distinction between laws I enacted and decrees I put in place; I wanted
the People to be able to overturn my actions, make changes, and allow the
system I put in place to grow over time as Nova Roma grows. If the People
don't like the Constitution, they can amend it any time they want! Same
thing with the laws, or decreta; let the system do its work!

<snip>

> Until such time as your acta have been ratified by the people as well as
> the senate, the in force constitution is the old one. I note that at no
> time was a law passed which officially suspended the old constitution ...

While no law was passed, the subject was, in fact, covered in my decree of
July 30th: "All documents listed in the "provisional documents" section of
the aerarium Saturnii are hereby put into effect as lex, decretum, Senatus
consultum, constitution et cetera, as appropriate." The new constitution was
listed there, and thus has the legal authority of a constitution.

> <snip>
> But as I said above, and as is clear from all constitutional authority,
the
> new constitution could *not* have been in effect and still isn't in effect
> until such time as the *people* have ratified it. I'm not accusing you of
> attempting to railroad things or anything of that sort ... all I'm saying
> is that for the new constitution to have legal validity, it must be
legally
> established and it can only be legally established by ratification by the
> people.

I think it's pretty obvious that "all constitutional authority" isn't clear
on the subject at all, at least not the way you interpret it. When I left
office as dictator, the new constitution was in effect (just as all my other
actions were), and the rules as they then stood had to be obeyed. They were,
and our political system is (I think everyone with one or two notable and
obvious exceptions will agree) the stronger for it.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:16:20 -0400

Salve,

> From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>

<snip>

> I think it's pretty clear that the new constitution cannot have any legal
> force until the senate *and* people approve it. The people haven't, and

Please see my previous post. Are you saying that nothing a dictator does has
any force until after his term of office is over??? What good would that be
in an emergency!? I can see it now: "I order the army to move to Cisalpine
Gaul to stop the barbarians!" "Sorry, Dictator, you can issue the order, but
it doesn't have any force until you've left and the Senate has ratified it.
We'll move the marker on the map, but the legion won't march until next
month."

Let's have a little common sense here...

> should. I don't think anyone will be able to take virtues such as honos,
> gravitas and dignitas seriously if we allow this to simply pass us by. If
> nothing else, think of the precedent that we're setting, quirites -- we're
> basically saying that we tacitly approve any constitutional change that
may
> come along. That's a very dangerous precedent and probably an initial step
> towards SPQNR becoming SNR ...

Nonsense. I would remind you that the new constitution has been a LOT more
influenced by the People than the one you are touting. The old constitution
was literally myself and two other people setting things down, and then
*bamf* it was declared. I would argue that this new constitution has gone
through a more open and rigorous process of input from the citizens it
intends to govern. You want the voice of the People to be heard? I would
argue that if that's the case, you should be trumpeting the constitution
that saw their input, and heard their voices, and bears their imprint. Not
the one that was the (admittedly well-intentioned) work of a few, but that
was obviously ultimately lacking.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

Subject:	Re: The Undiluted Irish (was Aquae Sulis)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:19:20 -0400

Salve,

> From: K--------e Ariadne <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200028091056078198169061186140081090177098100046209130" >k--------eariadne@--------</a>
>
> Actually, I wasn't even referring to that.... what they would undoubtedly
> cringe at would be considered "Roman"...their definitions of barbarism, I
know,
> are very different from the Roman standard. Celts are rather proud to be
> Celts. Don't call them by another name within hearing range! ;) It may
be

And especially don't pronounce it "Selts"! (Having lived in Boston for 6
years, you've no idea how many times I've heard that and cringed myself,
even only being 1/4 Irish!)

> Hence why I don't mix the two groups, Irish and Roman. Rome may have
never
> made it to Ireland, per se, but I like to be... shall I say... diplomatic?

I do remember hearing something about a Roman trade center being discovered
on the eastern coast of Ireland. Did anything ever come of that excavation?

Vale,

Germanicus

Subject:	Re: Constitution and Dictatorship
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:15:00 -0400

Salvete Marce Marci et Marce Papiri et alii

Both of you raise good points and your logic is good. There is, however, a
problem: pigs will fly to Mars and back before a vote is ever conducted in
accordance with the Cassian/Vedian constitution (C/VC). Why? Because
people have been talking, debating and fighting how to form the tribes and
centuries in accordance with the C/VC for more than a year. And, even if
the tribes and centuries could be formed, then we would have to have
elections for speaker positions for every tribe and every century, or, at
the very least, for every century. Then, we would have actually to go
through with it and have a voting process incorporating the role of
speakers.

I thought enough about this months ago to write up a proposal and send it to
the old senate. I don't think that anyone read it in its entirety. Why
would they? Boring, long-winded text about a procedure that probably WOULD
NOT WORK anyway.

If we were to vote on ratification in an assembly convened following the new
system spelled out in the Germanican constitution and accompanying laws,
well, what's the point? The very process of going to vote in the assembly
will indicate acceptance of the Germanican constitution and accompanying
laws, won't it?

By the way, everyone is talking about "the Senate" and whether it ratified
Germanicus' actions, and how much weight to attribute to such ratification,
et cetera. Well, that body was appointed by Germanicus. If it didn't
ratify his actions, would it then not have ceased to exist?

Look, I don't mean to offend anyone, but the Cassian/Vedian constitution,
the one cited for legitimation of Germanicus' appointment to the office of
dictator, was already a dead letter when he was so appointed. Believe me, I
was as upset as anyone about that fact, given that I was almost done with a
Latin translation of it, that M Mucius Scaevola and I had been editing and
correcting at length. Too, that was one of the documents that I read
carefully before joining this micronation. The trouncing of the old
constitution in effect made my whole decision to join look pretty absurd to
me.

Cincinnatus has said, quite accurately it seems to me, that Nova Roma was,
for the last several months of the supposed validity of the Cassian/Vedian
constiution, in fact owned by a little corporation in this little state of
New Hampshire, a corporation not mentioned in the Cassian/Vedian
constitution. When some of the magistrates moved against others who were on
the board of the corporation, Nova Roma was terminated as a micronation.
The appointment of Germanicus as dictator was legitimate not because of
anything that the Cassian/Vedian constitution said or did not say, but
because it represented a deal struck with the board of the corporation.

Now, that may not be the kind of legitimacy that gives one a warm glow
inside, but it's a start. And I have been favorably impressed by the body
of work that Germanicus has put into rebuilding Nova Roma since his
appointment. That, to me, is enough to earn my faith in his intentions.
And what's the alternative? Shall we set aside his acta and consult the
board of the corporation for guidance on how to hold a vote? We could, but,
given the interregnum declaration,....?

I'm all for rule of law. I hope to see it here someday. But it won't come
from the exhumation of the corpse of the Cassian/Vedian constitution. In
the end, we have to choose whether to go ahead with Nova Roma or give it up.
If we want to go ahead, how do we do that? I would say, let's go ahead with
the election called for in the edict of Decius Iunius Palladius.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


:From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=085056131063158209025056228219114253071048139" >RexM--------us@--------</--------;
:
:
:I would really like to hear from Germanicus, what he regards as
:constitutional with regard to the ratification process of his acts as
:dictator. I for myself see no other (constitutional) way than a vote by the
:people in an appropriate comitia...
:
:When Germanicus was appointed as dictator (7/4/99) the Senate passed a
motion
:put forward by consul Palladius with an explicitly mentioned intent and I
:quote:
:
:"Whereas any solution to the present crisis should and must be done in
:accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma,"
:
:In his last edict, Germanicus wrote:
:
:"[...].I further enjoin the Senate to vote upon the ratification of my
:actions in such manner as they shall see fit[...]"
:
:As several people have pointed out before, the old constitution stipulates
:that ratification of the actions of a dictator are no senate prerogative.
:Therefore this last part of the edict is clearly unconstitutional.
:
:The people have to be involved in the ratification as well. And as far as
the
:change of Constitution is concerned, I believe you will need a two thirds
:majority as this seems to be the underlying logic of the old
constitution.....
:
:Having said all this, I would vote to ratify the acts of Germanicus just
like
:the Senate did, because they represent a tremendous and (in my view)
:successful effort to avoid all this trouble in the future....
:
:Marcus Marcius Rex,
:citizen of Nova Roma
:

Subject:	Re: Re: Election Announcment
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 23:44:46 -0500

My personal opinions:

The dictatorship was not, being vetoed by Cincinnatus.
The acts of the dictatorship have no standing.
The closing down of the web page by Cassius was not legal.
The old constitution is still be in force, without the tribes and
centuries needed to give it any reality.
My paterfamilias, Sulla is no Senator.
The Censors ane still delinquent.
Government being a monopoly on the use of force over a particular
geographical area, Nova Roma is no government 'cause it owns no
dirt and pretends to no monopoly.

Enjoy your fun and games while my wife and I practice the religio
to my ability.

Don Meaker
Gaius Cornelius Mamertinus

Subject:	Re: Re: Election Announcment
From:
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:54:41 -0700

Salve Son,

I have explained the reasoning and validity of both the dictatorship and the
new Constitution to you. You like Cin have chosen to disregard the
reasoning used by Consul Palladius in both the establishiment of the
Dictatorship and the removal of Cin. That is something you must deal with.
We all know both sides overreacted regarding the situation but that does not
take away the validity of the work that Germancius has done and completed.
I am a Senator. Cin is not Consul anymore. The elections last year were
illegal. That is the fact. There is no way to change it. For the
betterment of Nova Roma. Lets put this behind us and move forward. The
care and concern we all have for Nova Roma should be our MAIN concern. Not
for our own petty ego's.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
Praetor Urbanus et Senator
----- Original Message -----
From: Don an--------ys Meaker <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=230166014180193192112218004036129208" >famromo@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Election Announcment


> From: "Don an--------ys Meaker" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=230166014180193192112218004036129208" >famromo@--------</a>
>
> My personal opinions:
>
> The dictatorship was not, being vetoed by Cincinnatus.
> The acts of the dictatorship have no standing.
> The closing down of the web page by Cassius was not legal.
> The old constitution is still be in force, without the tribes and
> centuries needed to give it any reality.
> My paterfamilias, Sulla is no Senator.
> The Censors ane still delinquent.
> Government being a monopoly on the use of force over a particular
> geographical area, Nova Roma is no government 'cause it owns no
> dirt and pretends to no monopoly.
>
> Enjoy your fun and games while my wife and I practice the religio
> to my ability.
>
> Don Meaker
> Gaius Cornelius Mamertinus
>
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