Subject:	Answer to Equitius; Election
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:16:49 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Lucius wrote:

> From: "Lucius" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
>
> Salvete Quirites

Salve L. Equiti, Salvete Cives Novae Romae,

I shall here address the questions put forth by Lucius Equitius, Senator
of Nova Roma:

> >This is an edict laying out the dates and rules for the upcoming vote in
> >the Comitia Centuriatia, during which the empty seat of consul will be
> >filled and proposed laws voted on. This is sort of a pre-edict, for three
> >days before the election starts I will proclaim an edict stating the exact
> >days of the election, who the candidates running are and what laws I will
> >put forward to be voted on in the Comitia Centuriatia.
>
> How are we to pick spokespersons for our Tribes and Centuries if we don't
> know who is in our Tribe? Where is this information posted? Why is it not
> posted?

There is no requirement in the Constitution to chose spokesmen for the
Tribes and Centuries. You are referring to the old constitution, which was
overturned by an action by Flavius Vedius Germanicus, who was legally
appointed Dictator of Nova Roma by the Senate on July 4, 1999.

> <a href="http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/constitution_old.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/constitution_old.html</a>
> Article IV: The Comitiae and Elections
> 1.The comitia populi is convened by either a Consul or Praetor Urbanis.
> <SNIP> Each tribe shall elect one of its members to speak for it in those
> matters that shall be refered to the comitia populi; such speakers shall be
> appointed for life.

Again, this is the old Constitution, overturned by Flavius Vedius. Any
requirement or stipulation laid out in that document is no longer valid.

> 2. The comitia centuriata is convened by a Consul. <SNIP> Each century shall
> elect one of its members to speak for it in those matters that shall be
> refered to the comitia centuriata; such speakers shall be appointed until
> the comitia is released by a Consul.


Again, this is the old Constitution, overturned by Flavius Vedius. Any
requirement or stipulation laid out in that document is no longer valid.


>> 3. The comitia plebis is convened by a Tribune of the Plebs<SNIP>Each tribe
> shall elect one of its members to speak for it in those matters that shall
> be refered to the comitia plebis; such speakers shall be appointed until the
> comitia is released by a Tribune of the Plebs.


Again, this is the old Constitution, overturned by Flavius Vedius. Any
requirement or stipulation laid out in that document is no longer valid.


>
> >The election by law must last at least two market days.

> Where is this Law posted. When was it voted on? How was it voted on? Who
> voted on it?


If you look in the Aerium Saturni, you will see posted under laws, the
Lex Vedia de Ratione Eligium. The requirement comes from there.

> This is what is posted on the Elections and Voting Procedures page.
> <a href="http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/procedures.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/procedures.html</a>

> "There is no set time frame on votes concerning laws; a deadline for voting
> is included with the bill itself. With the advent of the Internet and
> electronic communications, a voting period of a week to ten days seems to be
> optimal, and it is usual to entertain a discussion on the issue at hand
> (known as a contio) before an actual call for a vote is made."


This is not a law, it was a general guideline we had before the law. Thank
you for pointing this out, we will make sure the page is changed.

> >Unfortunately, this vote could not be held until after the Senate
> >completed voting on the actions of Flavius Vedius. This was completed last
> >week.
>
> (How appropriate that a picture of Augustus up on the website since we are
> not a Republic anymore). You see they have still not done anything by the
> Constitution.
> <a href="http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/constitution_old.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/constitution_old.html</a>

Augustus, eh? I appreciate the attempt at flattery, truly I do, Lucius
Equitius, but I am not Augustus. In accordance with the newly enacted
Constitution, A *vote* was held in the Senate during which time was given
to discuss any and all subjects regarding the actions of Flavius Vedius.
All aspects of the legal system were ratified.

>
> ART. III sec.2 no. 2 "Two Consuls shall be elected, and shall be the
> highest-ranking magistrates in Nova Roma. Each Consul shall have the
> following powers:
> 2.veto over the actions of his or her fellow Consul, and over the actions of
> lesser magistrates;"
>
> Firstly, Cassius is guilty of taking the website and giving control to
> Germanicus. Palladius AND I appointed Marcus Martianus "webmaster" and I
> vetoed any change.


You are throwing the word guilt around rather lightly. If Marcus Cassius
Iulianus is "guilty" of anything, then he has received amnesty for
his actions under an edict, as have *you* received amnesty for trying to
subvert the old Constitution which you pretend to champion. An action
I might add which started a chain of events which brought Nova Roma to the
edge of dissolution. The only thing that saved Nova Roma was the
dictatorship. It was a dictatorship or no Nova Roma. I think Nova Roma is
doing quite well after the dictatorship.


>
> ART. V sec. 2 "The Senate shall be convened by one or both of the serving
> Consuls..."
>
> Secondly, I vetoed the action to bring a vote to the Senate to make anybody
> dictator.

Yes, you tried to use your veto. However, the vote was complete and the
dictatorship already in effect by that time. Was it legal? Yes. Why?
Because nothing in the Constitution said the other consul had to be
notified of a vote. It was a giant loophole that we used. Call it sneaky
if you will (and you have) but considering the underhanded attempt to
subvert the Constitution you were involved in, you are in no position
to throw stones or mud. None of us have come out of these last few months
clean, *least* of all you. However, you have not examined your actions but
prefer to blame everyone, pretending no fault in any action.

However, that is all water under the bridge. Nova Roma is moving on---are
you coming with us?

> Now this makes all of their changes illegal under their own constitution.

*Our* Constitution Lucius Equitius. As you are a citizen, it is yours as
well. Nothing we have done is illegal according to the Constitution. In
fact I have taken pains to be precise, following the constitution, laws
and senate rules to the letter.


> And for a final insult to us the constitution says that IF a dictator takes
> any
> actions they must be apporved by the Senate AND Citizens of Nova Roma, not
> just the Senate.
>
> ART.III, sec.9 "In times of emergency, as determined by the Senate, a
> Dictator may be appointed by the Senate, to serve for a term not to exceed
> that of the emergency, not to exceed six months. The dictator shall function
> as the supreme magistrate and not be subject to veto or recall by the
> Senate, and shall hold imperium. After his or her term of office has
> expired, the actions of the Dictator will be subject to review and final
> permanent approval by the Senate and Citizens of Nova Roma. "

This is the old Constitution you quote. Please refer to the newly enacted
constitution to see what the procedure is.

This was really another gap in the old Constitution. While it said that
ratification was to be done by the Senate and People, the Constitution
laid no limit on a dictator's powers, including altering the ratification
requirement of the Constitution. In the new Constitution, specific limits
can be set on the power of a dictator to prevent this.

> So even IF Germanicus were legally appointed, they would still need to form
> the Tribes to make his changes legal.

The Tribes are formed as are the centuries (in fact the Tribes were posted
in early July). So you would like us to use the newly formed tribes
(formed according to a newly enacted Vedian law) to ratify actions under
the old, overturned Constitution? A rather convoluted, and might I add
illegal, process.

> So until the Citizens vote to approve the actions of the Dictator I'm still
> Consul Anyway. Also, Marcus Martianus should be returned as Co-webmaster,
> this is what we wanted from the beginning anyway! Right Palladius?.

It was what we wanted at the time, yes, and Marcus Martianus served well
while in the post. However, since Flavius Vedius is so heavily involved in
revamping the website, especially in preparation for the election, he
assumed the position. As in everything else he has done, he has done it
well.

And no, you are not consul. The election in which we were elected was
nullified. That nullification was ratified by the Senate according to to
section VI.B.1. of the newly enacted Constitution. I hold my position of
consul legally by a dictatorial edict, effective July 4, 1999. I refer you
to the Aerium Saturni for the exact document.


> >Voter codes will be issued between now and the beginning of next week.
>
>
> Until the Citizens vote spokespersons there can't be any votes legally held.

This is the old Constitution you quote. Please refer to the newly enacted
constitution to see what the procedure is.

> >May the Gods continue to guide, protect and bless our Republic.
> >Decius Iunius Palladius, Consul of Nova Roma
>
> I guess we need to form a republic before it can be blessed, guided and
> protected.

I think it is clear to most citizens that we have a republic, hence the
elections. If this was not a republic, we would all be saying "Ave
Caesar." We are not, we are preparing to fill the empty seat of consul and
vote on laws.


> I'm sorry to be such a pain everyone, but someone needs to see that
>things
> are done according to the Constitution. I must say for someone who is
> accused of "subverting" the constitution I seem to be the only one who
> actually cites the document.

Believe me Lucius Equitius, I appreciate the irony of that newfound
respect too. Do you?

> So, why do we not have the Tribes posted so that we may begin to consider
> those things to be done in proper order? This is all I have asked for since
> the begining of the year, the main goal of this year for me was the Proper
> function of the Government.

In case you have not noticed, the government is running smoothly and shall
continue to do so, despite your best efforts to prevent that. From now
on, Nova Roma will not stumble from crisis to crisis. If your real
motivation really is consideration for the proper function of the
government, then please, take an honest look around you and see that Nova
Roma is stronger and steadier on her feet. We had an expression in the
Marine Corps, Lucius Equitius: "Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the
way." Right now, you're just in the way.

Vale et Valete,


Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul of Nova Roma




-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus

Subject:	Correction to post
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:33:17 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete! I have a correction to the post I just made. In the paragraph
that I referred to the election nullification, I cited a paragraph of the
Constitution. I cited VI.B.1. Actually, it was IV.B.1.

My apologies.

Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus

Subject:	Re: [Re: Election Announcment]
From:
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:51:39 EDT

In a message dated 8/18/1999 11:05:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=251056091098082116048038031024172089067083044234209130152" >Verci--------orix2@--------</a> writes:

<< Edith Hamilton says that the Romans mixed their wine with sea
water, not fresh. As a Frenchman and a true son of the Auvergne, I'm
disgusted. I shall taunt you a second tim >>
Salve
You believe Hamilton, Gaul? Then I see how we finally conquered you. You
aren't very bright. Hamilton's expertise at Brwn Mahr was in the Hellenic
Classics. Her most famous work was the "Greek Way." Its literally success
caused her publisher to have her write "Roman Way." "Way" was quickly
written and is not as good.
Vale
Q. Fabius

Subject:	ATTN: COMITIA PLEBIS TRIBUTA announcement
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:46:02 +0100

Salvete Cives

This edict lays out the dates for the upcoming Comitia Plebis Tributa,
during which the empty seat of Aedilis Plebis will be filled. The auspices
having been taken and the omens being good, the Comitia
Plebis shall take place at the same time as the Comitia Centuriata already
announced, this is August 26. Voting shall continue until September 7.
Three days before the ellection starts, I shall annouce all the plebiscita
that will be put before the people.
Nevertheless, the campaign for Aedilis Plebis shall start immediately.
Citizens wishing to run for the office must present their candidacies in the
official places to do so (please confirm sending a private email to
<a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123212113056185162090218066036129208" >graecus@--------</a> ), u-------- 01:00 AM EST, Mo--------, August 23. My edict
issued that same day shall then present the names of the candidates standing
for office. The campaign period will run from the time a candidate declares,
until
polls close September 7.
Voter codes will be issued between now and the beginning of next week.

Valete

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Tribunus Plebis et coetera

Subject:	For Roman fans of Celine Dion
From:	hadji hadji@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:11:14 +0200

Salvete honoratissimi Romani,

I found an example of good music which I suppose all Romans will be glad
to hear on Internet.
After you will hear another version of the greatest Celine Dion's hit,
you will have enough strengh and will for further political discussions
on NR actual political topics.

You may find this hit on
<a href="http://www.funradio.sk/home.html" target="_top" >http://www.funradio.sk/home.html</a>
After you find it, you will need to click on "down load" and then on
"titanic.mp3" .

Good luck and pleasant experience!

Respectfully

Alex. Probus

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"M. Papirius Justus" papirius@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:38:58 -0400

Salvete,

At 09:03 PM 18/08/1999 -0400, you wrote:
I think we have here an honest difference of interpretation. What, exactly,
does "ratify" mean? I believe it means to give a final "we agree with what
you did" to finalize my actions as Dictator.

Respondeo:

I agree completely with that.

Scr:

According to your
interpretation, while I was serving as dictator, my actions were mere
shadows; what I was doing wasn't "real" and the old forms and systems were
completely in place regardless of my edicts.

R:

No, that's not what I'm saying at all ... while you were dictator you *did*
have power to do all that stuff; the crux of this concerns what happens
when you stepped down.


Scr.

Everything from the
invalidation of the (illegal) elections to the appointment of the lictores
was held in a limbo. We have no laws right now; they were "only" enacted by
a dictator. They have no force. Even during my dictatorship, my actions were
mere illusion, awaiting being given form by ratification under the old
system.

R.

Under both the old and new constitutions, your actions do not have legal
force after you have stepped down until they have been ratified. But it is
the old constitution which is important because it was by virtue of the old
constitution that you were created dictator and accordingly, what happens
when you step down must conform to *those* rules. Had you been created
dictator by virtue of the new constitution, we would not be having this
conversation at all.

Scr.

Come on. Any reasonable person must admit that this seems a bit absurd. My
actions as dictator were legal under the constitution-- old or new. They may
have been _temporarily_ legal, pending ratification by whatever body was
legally authorized to do so, but they were still legal. What I did was
legally valid during my term as dictator, and after (until the vote of
ratification), *including* the new constitution. The burden of positive
action lay with the Senate; they had the authority to overturn any of my
actions by refusing to ratify them. And they did! They did overturn two of
my decisions, both of which I thought to be very important to the prosperity
of our Republic. But, ever the power-hungry tyrant that Cincinnatus et al
say I am, I abided by the decision of the Senate.


Res.

This is why I'm pulling my hair out on this one! You acknowledge that your
acts as dictator require ratification. Obviously we are not disputing that.
What we *are* disputing is whether ratification by the senate was
sufficient (new constitution) or whether the people's ratification is also
necessary (as provided by the constitution which, in effect and in law,
gave you your power to be dictator). Now, if you are stating that the old
constitution was somehow made invalid, it must follow that your
dictatorship had no legal basis either and so all your acta *even while you
were dictator* are invalid. But I don't think a reasonable person would go
to that extreme in interpretation. Rather, as I've been trying to point out
-- reasonably -- the constitution which allowed you to be dictator (i.e.
the old one) is still in force until such time as your acta have been
ratified by the senate *and* people.

Scr.

Except, unfortunately, that the edicts of a dictator are not laws. They have
a special authority that supercedes any other. That is precisely why I made
the distinction between laws I enacted and decrees I put in place; I wanted
the People to be able to overturn my actions, make changes, and allow the
system I put in place to grow over time as Nova Roma grows. If the People
don't like the Constitution, they can amend it any time they want! Same
thing with the laws, or decreta; let the system do its work!

Res.

Arrrrrrgh. If we're going to quibble over the meaning of lex and edicta, I
will regale you with plenty of direct quotes from the Digest of Justinian.
I will point out the various acta of the dictator Sulla were referred to as
lex Cornelia de ______ and on and on. But just read what you've written up
there! You want the people to be able to be able to overturn your actions
if necessary. You are essentially acknowledging that the will of the people
supersedes any acta of the dictator. This is precisely why ratification by
the people is necessary, especially for such an important document as the
constitution (which, by the weay, deserves a rather more prominent place in
the Aerarium).

That said, I desperately *want* the system to do its work. But again I fear
the precedent that is being set and being a Roman law type, I am acutely
sensitive to precedents (as are a number of others here) and I greatly fear
the 'negative' precedents that have been previously cited. The people have
under the old constitution a right to ratify your acta for them to have
legal force after you have stepped down; if we allow you to ignore that
right, we are setting the precedent that the people's will can be ignored
whenever it seems 'inconvenient'. I'm sure that no reasonable person wants
that.

Scr.

While no law was passed, the subject was, in fact, covered in my decree of
July 30th: "All documents listed in the "provisional documents" section of
the aerarium Saturnii are hereby put into effect as lex, decretum, Senatus
consultum, constitution et cetera, as appropriate." The new constitution was
listed there, and thus has the legal authority of a constitution.

Res.

And, of course, the old constitution was still there, and properly so since
it was the legal basis for your dictatorship. It remains the legal
constitution of Nova Roma until your acta have been ratified by the people.

Scr.

I think it's pretty obvious that "all constitutional authority" isn't clear
on the subject at all, at least not the way you interpret it. When I left
office as dictator, the new constitution was in effect (just as all my other
actions were), and the rules as they then stood had to be obeyed. They were,
and our political system is (I think everyone with one or two notable and
obvious exceptions will agree) the stronger for it.

Res.

No, that's not how it works at all. While you are dictator, everything you
do has the force of law; when you set down your dictatorship, your acta
have to be ratified by the senate and people of Rome as set out in the
constitution which was the basis for your dictatorship.

Vale,

MPJ
]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: Election Announcment
From:	"M. Papirius Justus" papirius@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:45:59 -0400

At 09:16 PM 18/08/1999 -0400, you wrote:
From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
Please see my previous post. Are you saying that nothing a dictator does has
any force until after his term of office is over??? What good would that be
in an emergency!? I can see it now: "I order the army to move to Cisalpine
Gaul to stop the barbarians!" "Sorry, Dictator, you can issue the order, but
it doesn't have any force until you've left and the Senate has ratified it.
We'll move the marker on the map, but the legion won't march until next
month."

Respondeo:

No, I won't let you take things to an illogical extreme for rhetorical
purposes. There is a difference between dictators who are set up to deal
with a military emergency (or for the sake of driving a nail or for the
sake of holding an election or for whatever other purpose dictators are
made) and the *legislation* which a dictator creates. The legislation of a
dictator has always been subject to review and to being overturned,
according to history, and according to the constitution which created your
dictatorship, is subject to ratification by the senate *and* people.

Scr.

Nonsense. I would remind you that the new constitution has been a LOT more
influenced by the People than the one you are touting. The old constitution
was literally myself and two other people setting things down, and then
*bamf* it was declared. I would argue that this new constitution has gone
through a more open and rigorous process of input from the citizens it
intends to govern. You want the voice of the People to be heard? I would
argue that if that's the case, you should be trumpeting the constitution
that saw their input, and heard their voices, and bears their imprint. Not
the one that was the (admittedly well-intentioned) work of a few, but that
was obviously ultimately lacking.

Res.

I mentioned these very things (about the openness of the process etc.) in a
previous post! I approve of the constitution myself, as to numerous others!
Why is there such resistance to having the people exercising their right to
approve it? My concern is now and always has been the precedent that is
being set *under this new constitution* to ignore the will of the people
whenever it seems inconvenient.

I honestly do not understand at all the resistance to this rather simple
thing unless someone actually wants this precedent to exist ...

MPJ
]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: The Undiluted Irish (was Aquae Sulis)
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 05:56:11 -0700 (PDT)

--- Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> wrote:
> Salve,

Salve! :)

> > From: K--------e Ariadne <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200028091056078198169061186140081090177098100046209130" >k--------eariadne@--------</a>
> > Actually, I wasn't even referring to that.... what they would undoubtedly
> > cringe at would be considered "Roman"...their definitions of barbarism, I
> know,
> > are very different from the Roman standard. Celts are rather proud to be
> > Celts. Don't call them by another name within hearing range! ;) It may
> And especially don't pronounce it "Selts"! (Having lived in Boston for 6
> years, you've no idea how many times I've heard that and cringed myself,
> even only being 1/4 Irish!)

*twitch* *twitch* *cringe*

My mother still does that, and she's nearly full blooded Irish.

*tries not to spasm any further*

> > Hence why I don't mix the two groups, Irish and Roman. Rome may have
> never made it to Ireland, per se, but I like to be... shall I say...
diplomatic?
> I do remember hearing something about a Roman trade center being discovered
> on the eastern coast of Ireland. Did anything ever come of that excavation?

Now *that* I did not hear about! When was this dicovery made?




Vale et khaire,


-Andrea Gladia Kyrinia








===
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-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: The Undiluted Irish (was Aquae Sulis)
From:	"M. Papirius Justus" papirius@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:52:39 -0400

At 05:56 AM 19/08/1999 -0700, you wrote:
Now *that* I did not hear about! When was this dicovery made?

Respondeo:

I just answered that for another person:
---------------
Here's some urls for Drumanagh (feel free to post these wherever):

The thing was first reported in the Jan. 18, 1996 Times:

<a href="http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/sti/96/01/21/stinwenws02025.html" target="_top" >http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/sti/96/01/21/stinwenws02025.html</a>
?999

A news report from the CBA:

<a href="http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba12/ba12news.html#inbrief" target="_top" >http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba12/ba12news.html#inbrief</a>

Here's an article saying it's true:

<a href="http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/ba14feat.html#warner" target="_top" >http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba14/ba14feat.html#warner</a>

Here's a report by a colleague of mine:

<a href="http://arts.uwaterloo.ca/~lcurchin/light/ireland.html" target="_top" >http://arts.uwaterloo.ca/~lcurchin/light/ireland.html</a>

There's also something in the May 1996 issue of Archaeology magazine (in
the Newsbriefs section, I think) ... I can't give you the specific url for
this other than the general site url; as I write this I can't seem to
access the site:

<a href="http://www.archaeology.org" target="_top" >http://www.archaeology.org</a>

In any event, this article casts doubt on the find in some way. As
mentioned in my previous post, I also have it on good authority that the
veracity of the find is somewhat suspect.
------------------

MPJ


]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: [Re: Election Announcment]
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:00:30 -0700 (PDT)

--- Verci--------orix2 <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=251056091098082116048038031024172089067083044234209130152" >Verci--------orix2@--------</a> wrote:

Salve!

> And who are you calling "barbarian," Deutsche-boy?

Oh! Oh! Go with your bad self, my fine Celtic comrade!




Vale et khaire,


-Kyrinia


===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Get-Together Information
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:07:46 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete Citizens:

Just some information for you all to digest and perhaps comment on. I
do not mean to interrupt the serious political discussion now burning up
the Onelist Lines, But I thought that you might be interested. The
information was provided by a Travel Agency Manager here in the New
London-Groton Area of CT:

--Caesar's Palace-LV;
-Rooms; $250-300 per night to $1000 in season;
-Rooms; $160-$200 per night o $750 off season;
-Conference Room, and Meals not included;
-Air Fare; $300-$400 (as low as $250 sometimes--during Convention
Weekends as high as $500-$600);

--Caesar's Palace-AC above rates are comparable (The neighborhood just
one street over from the Boardwalk is not recommended by Travel Agents
to their clients);

--Foxwoods (New London Area--Mashentucket (Ledyard) CT);
--Largest Casino in the World;
--10+ Restaurants;
--15+ Conference Rooms;
--Lots of Parking with Shuttle Buses from the further lots;
--Mystic Aquarium;
--Mystic Seaport;
--World Class Indian Culture Museum;
--New England surroundings / scenery;
--Rooms: $79-$160 per night.

Now for the assurances that I am not attempting to undermine my friend
Q. Fabius in his attempts at organizing an activity at LV. It is for
the purpose that someone might be interested in an East Coast
get-together that I put this information on the list. I further relize
that I am being somewhat self-serving in mentioning Foxwoods, in that it
is only a few miles from my home, but I do and will often go to distant
places in my re-enactment travels as those of you who were at Roman Days
can attest to, so the information is provided for what use it may be.
Other infomation regarding any suitable properties in the East are also
welcome..

In retrospect, I have had no response to my list of dates that are
available to me for the coming months and next year. A similar list
from all who are interested in a East Coast Get-Together would go a long
way towards assisting in selecting a set of dates to begin negotiations
with any given hotel property. I would caution that activities such as
we are contemplating should be planned at least 6-8 months in advance
and 12-18 months is even better. I'm sure that there are those of you
who will disagree with that time schedule, but it is one adhered to by
most experienced re-enators establishing re-enactment activities and
seems to work very well.

It should also be noted that virtually every town of any size has a
Community Center or something similar. If we just wanted to get
together, stay at a local hotel / Motel / house(s) (camping perhaps) and
meet at the hall throughout the weekend and go to local attractions
together, the whole thing could be done much more cheaply. The
get-together that we enjoyed last winter in Salem, MA cost the gas to
get there and a oouple of meals,, with the hospitality of a most
gracious hostess, and was most enjoyable and there were plenty of places
to stay had we planned an overnight. Moderate sized Conference Rooms
run to $150-300 per night, and if the group wished we could use a
centrally located restaurant(s) as a meal base.

There is a lot to consider in setting something like this up and it
would be nice to know what your desires are. Some have already
contacted me about not being interested in sleeping outside to save the
room fees, and others have been interested,

I respectfully request that if you are interested in such an event, that
you contact the List. The only dates published so far have been the
dates when I personnally am not commited. I know that does not mean a
great deal, but I thought it a beginning...

Vale;
Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Bread & Circuses
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:36:41 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete! Though a newcomer to NR, I see by the report
below that its influence is far greater than I
imagined.

WASHINGTON, DC--Seeking to ensure the
continued distraction and contentedness of the
American people during a time of unprecedented
prosperity, Congress allocated $4 billion for bread
and circuses Monday.

President Clinton announced news of the
bill's passage to awaiting throngs from his
purple-draped balcony at the White House.

"Good citizens of America!" an
olive-leaf-bedecked Clinton said. "Never has
there been more peace, abundance and
contentedness across the Republic than now. Our
granaries are full to bursting, ships laden with the
fruits of our noble labor leave our ports everyday,
and our domiciles are filled with comforts that make
us the envy of the world. What's more, our
glorious military victory in the far-off province of
Kosovo has bolstered our stature among other, lesser
nation-states."

Continued Clinton: "Therefore, with the passage
of the Bread And Circuses Act, I call for a
celebration of these achievements. I call for revelry
in the streets, much feasting and imbibery of the
fermented grape, and gaming in our stadiums and
coliseums featuring the Republic's most eminent
athletes. Let the merriment begin!"

Shortly after his announcement, Clinton served
as Grand Marshal of an immense triumphal
procession down Pennsylvania Avenue. The procession,
attended by thousands of onlookers, featured a
display of Exocet missiles; several Stealth bombers
flying in formation; a phalanx of prominent military
leaders, senators and bureaucrats; dancers,
fire-eaters and contortionists; two rare Siberian
white tigers, who pulled a gilded coach containing the
current Miss America, Nicole Johnson; a battalion of
bull elephants; and Barbra Streisand.

At the back of the procession were four dozen
captured criminals and Serbian prisoners of war,
who were repeatedly beaten by a prison guard as they
slowly trudged under the weight of their chains
and manacles.

Following the massive parade, a state-sponsored
feast was held on the Capitol Mall, and great
quantities of such beloved American delicacies as
hamburgers, hot dogs, bratwurst, potato salad, Lite
beer, orange pop and sheet cake were served free of
charge to vast and ecstatic crowds, who gorged
themselves to excess.

"Hail good President Clinton, noblest American
of them all!" said visiting Grand Blanc, Michigan,
resident Sherman Kozik, before racing to one of the
many porta-vomitoriums to purge himself of the
gallon of three-bean salad he had consumed.

The gaiety continued on through the evening, as
per Clinton's command, as standing-room-only
crowds packed stadiums, arenas and racetracks
nationwide for such popular sporting events as pro
football, stock car racing and wrestling.

The most celebrated event took place at New York
City's Madison Square Garden, where
defending World Wrestling Federation champion "Stone
Cold" Steve Austin was defeated in a stunning
upset by the Undertaker before thousands of fans.
Having subdued Austin with a tombstone piledriver,
the Undertaker looked up to Mayor Rudolph Giuliani,
who was seated in his mayoral box high atop the
arena, to determine Austin's fate. Giuliani pointed
his thumb downward, and the Undertaker ran Austin
through with a broadsword to fans' raucous cheers. He
then presented Austin's lifeless body to the
mayor.

Despite the widespread popularity of the Bread
And Circuses Act, some believe that crucial issues
are being ignored, and that Clinton advocated the law
solely to increase his approval rating. An early
dissenter was Sen. Robert Torricelli (D-NJ), who
gave an eloquent oratory in the Senate floor
shortly after the bill was signed into law.

"By appealing to the plebians' low instincts for
bloodlust and gluttony, the despotic libertine Clinton
has traded away our freedom and quality of life for
his own advancement, and as a consequence, our
Republic lies dangerously prone to its base vices,"
Torricelli said. "How can he speak of celebration and
feasting when there is still abundant evidence of
chronic want despite a robust economy, when large
stockpiles of nuclear weapons continue to exist, when
our presidential candidates remain frustratingly
vague on issues of great import, and when the
environment continues to undergo man-made
degradation?"

"Citizens!" Torricelli continued. "I beseech you
to look past the revelry and consider your condition.
Have you truly benefited from this state of affairs? I
respectfully submit the resounding answer of no!
No, no, a thousand times, no!"

The morning after his speech, Torricelli was
found dead in his bedroom, an apparent victim of an
asp bite sometime during the night.

The Clinton administration has denied any
wrongdoing in Torricelli's death, as well as claims
made by its political enemies that the Bread And
Circuses Act was intended to lull the populace into a
state of apathy and complacency.

"Citizens, who scoffs at your indulgence? The
same patrician snobs who have kept you in your
place for years," said White House press secretary Joe
Lockhart. "Life is short and desperate, and soon
the Grim Reaper will darken your door. That's why it's
of capital importance to enjoy yourself while you
can. Now, who's up for a free, government-sponsored
crucifixion of some convicted murderers?"

As the mass celebrations continue into the
weekend, the President will host an enormous bonfire
on the White House lawn, to be followed by a special
ceremony in which Clinton will appoint his favorite
horse as the new Secretary of Housing and Urban
Development.


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Subject:	Re: Re: Election Announcment
From:	Zhonu@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:38:51 EDT

I've become a citizen of NR after all the fireworks of the summer so I have
nothing to add. My comment concerns where the good will of group meetings of
a few days ago has gone. There is precedent in Roman History for the
appointment of a commision to study the matter amd mad recommendations. Just
a suggestion.

C. Aelius Atticus

Subject:	re Election Announcment (long)
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:23:25 -0400

---sound of mule-drawn wagon approaching the forum from the direction of a
Roman equivalent of a hospital for the mentally diseased-sound of a somewhat
heavy human body falling off the wagon and hitting the stones-drooling a
little, Gaius Marius Merullus limps up to M Papirius Iustus and says-

Salvete M Papiri et alii

Yes, there is at least one lunatic here who wants exactly that kind of
precedent. I refer to your statement -


>That said, I desperately *want* the system to do its work. But again I fear
>the precedent that is being set and being a Roman law type, I am acutely
>sensitive to precedents (as are a number of others here) and I greatly fear
>the 'negative' precedents that have been previously cited. The people have
>under the old constitution a right to ratify your acta for them to have
>legal force after you have stepped down; if we allow you to ignore that
>right, we are setting the precedent that the people's will can be ignored
>whenever it seems 'inconvenient'. I'm sure that no reasonable person wants
>that.

I sympathize with your value of precedent. Do you, in fact, believe in the
power of precedent? If you do, then you can no longer champion the
Cassian/Vedian constitution at all. Because C/VC was "passed", or voted
into law, by a bogus, unconstitutional, self-contradicting assembly. Flavi
Vedi, could you describe for us how the "comitia centuriata" was "convened"
last year to vote on the constitution? Did the process used comply with the
constitution? That is precedent I against C/VC.

Further crippling the moribund C/VC were the elections of December last
year. Nova Roma, the micronation that was the subject of C/VC, voted into
office a group of magistrates, without convening ANY of the assemblies
stipulated in Article IV of C/VC. That is precedent II against C/VC.

Later, a group of magistrates created an innovative process--which they
called "impeachment"--in an attempt to force other magistrates, who would
not or could not perform their duties under C/VC, to do so. The trouble
with the legitimacy of this approach? Non-existent under C/VC. That is
precedent III against C/VC.

(By then, C/VC can justly be called dead, but, since I am a firm believer in
overkill...)

Finally, the Nova Roma corporation, a non-existent under C/VC, cancelled
C/VC. To remove any doubt, the Interregnum declaration (I can send you the
full text if you're not familiar with it) stated that the senate had voted
to kill the state of Nova Roma, the subject of the C/VC. In other words,
the body that was charged under C/VC to be the principal policy-making and
steering body of the subject of the C/VC, voted to terminate C/VC and Nova
Roma. A loud, final precedent IV, that effectively erased C/VC and left us
all holding the bag.

I too believe in the power of precedent. Accordingly, I recognize the utter
invalidity of the Cassian/Vedian constitution, despite the respect that I
held for it when I joined this organization. My respect, and a sestertius,
may get you a piece of bread, but they couldn't do much for C/VC.

By the way, I was explaining last night that pigs would fly to Mars and back
before a vote would ever be held in accordance with C/VC. I forgot in my
dementia to mention one of the most important reasons why this is so: since
more than a year and a several consuls went by without being able to form
the assemblies and conduct any legitimate voting at all, it would follow
that the voting process would have to be "changed" (hard to change
something, really, when it has never existed); however, the most important
aspect of the voting process, the assemblies and general rules for their
composition, are contained within C/VC. Any amendment of C/VC would have to
be conducted in accordance with C/VC I. 4. --

"This Constitution may be altered by law passed by one of the comitia; such
alterations to this Constitution must be ratified by a vote of two-thirds of
the entire Senate before it shall take effect."

Who is going to convene ANY of the comitia? The magistrates elected last
December were elected unconstitutionally.

And even if someone had the authority to convene an assembly under C/VC (of
course noone has such authority, even if one pretends that C/VC is valid,
which it isn't), the voting process would have to be organized as stipulated
by the constitution.

Noone could do it then; why do you think that anyone will do it now?

C/VC has become history, a thing belonging completely and irrevocably to the
past. All procedures, rights and responsibilities outlined by C/VC mean
nothing now.

The only constitution that gives Nova Roma any hope of a political future at
all is the new, Germanican one. To utilize its provisions and new
accompanying laws to vote against its adoption, well, to me that's the
ultimate absurdity. You would use the machinery of the new body of law to
invalidate that body of law?

Would you like to join me on the wagon for the ride back? I promise to try
not to drool on you.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
>

Subject:	Re: re Election Announcment (long)
From:	George VanDeWater VanDeWGe@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:06:14 -0600

Selvet,

Well spoken. Let's get on with the business at had and make Nova Roma a reality. Enumerate the population. Get the vote underway. Let the people elect leaders that will put NR ahead of personal ego.

I for one would like to spend my time and effort here ibuilding the Provincia but if need be I will post for Aedilis Plebis and provide a voice for the Plebian Tribes.

Velete,

G. Africanus

Subject:	Reminder: SW Provincial Get-together
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:12:00 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete, omnes!

Speaking of gatherings, we of Texas and the Southwest Province have had
one in the works for quite some time...we are planning to Establish a
Roman Presence at the Hawkwood Medieval Fantasy Fest just north of Ft.
Worth this month or next.

Details below [from a letter to one of the prospective attendees]:

> ...It recently occurred to me that our rendezvous at the Hawkwood
> festival might be relatively imminent. Could you once again jog
> my sieve-like memory as to when the event takes place? Also, any
> additional information you could give me about it would be
> appreciated.

Hawkwood is indeed imminent; the run-dates are from 14 August to 27
September, weekends and Labor Day. Faire's open from 10am to 10pm each
Saturday of the run; 11am-8pm Sundays; and 10am-6pm Labor Day.

What weekend(s) would you like to go...? I'm leaning towards a later
one m'self, partly because of the heat in August (even under trees) and
partly because I'm having my caligae resoled and they may not be done
in time for Opening Day.

Tickets are $12 adult at the gate; a season pass may be had for $22 for
anyone who can make it more than once.

> I'd especially like directions to the site, information about
> possible camping, and an idea of the general "feel" of the event
> (ex. similar to the Magnolia TX RenFaire?).

The site is about 20 miles north of Ft. Worth. From San Antonio you'd
take I-35 North; as you pass through Waxahachie it will branch off into
I-35E and I-35W (which go to Dallas and Ft. Worth respectively; they
meet again in Denton)...you'd take the 'west' fork to State Hwy. 114,
then follow the signs.

Camping is available (and is fast becoming a tradition amongst the
diehards!); last time I checked it was $5 per night per person.

As for the 'feel', I've never been to Hawkwood and so cannot speak from
experience; however, many of my friends work there (as either merchants
or performers), so I've got a good collection of stories... It lives
up to its name, 'Hawkwood Medieval Fantasy Faire' quite well--key word
'Fantasy'. There are 'period' arts and crafts, to be sure; but there
are also plenty of fairies and elves and even a Dragon or two, and lots
of little character stories and subplots going on all around. (I've
been talking to Cris Uhl, who alternates between playing 'Toady' and
portraying the Lieutenant-Captain of the Guard, about how to
incorporate my persona Lucius into the goings-on.) This Faire is much
more actor-oriented; TRF, by comparison, is more of a historical Faire
plus SCA event. In other words: Hawkwood's for roleplay and having
FUN!!

> Finally, is there a web site I could visit or a number to call for
> more information?

Phone: (800) 782-3629
Web site: was <members.aol.com/hawkwoodgg/hawkwood.htm>; but I think
they've moved to link off their listing on SCRIBEnet. Do a Web search
for either 'Hawkwood' or 'SCRIBEnet' and you should find it. (My
favorite search engine is Verio MetaSearch: <search.verio.net>.


Hope to see anyone there who is interested in coming!
************************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |\=/|
mka Märia Villarroel ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> >[SPQR]< `\*/, ``}`^~``,,, \ \
Roman Historical Re-Creationist ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
and Citizen of Nova Roma | | / )\ \| /
'Latin a dead language?...Not _|_| / _/_| /`(
within a 50' radius of me it ain't!' /./..=' /./..'

Subject:	XII KAL. SEPT.
From:
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:20:37 -0400

Salvete, Omnes
In the interest of promoting Roman Culture and in a small way honoring Venus. I quote from Festivals and Ceremonies of the Roman Republic by HH Scullard. I hope to continue posting those dates that are of special interest to the patron deites of Gens Equitia.

19 August XII (Julian XIV) KAL. SEPT. F

VINALIA
VINALIA Veneri as Circum Maximum (Vall.)
VINALIA Feriae Iovi (Allif.)

This was the second Festival of Wine, following the Vinalia Priora of 23 April. As we have seen (p. 106), they originally honoured Juppiter, but later Venus was associated with them. It seems that the wine of the pervious harvest could first be brought to Roma on the 23 April, while on 19 August the ceremonies of the Vinalia Rustica were designed to gain protection of the growing wines, and the Flamin Dialis officially announced the vintage (auspicatur vindemoniam), a practice which continued in Varro's day.
The temple of Venus Obsaquens near the Circus Maximus was built by Q. Fabius Maximus Gurges out of fines which he, as curule aedile. had imposed on women convicted of adultery; it was begun in 295BC, possibly as a thank-offering for his father's victory over the Samites at Sentinum that year. (note 234)
Thought not recorded in the Fasti Antiates, which refer to Venere and to Veneribus. a temple to Venus Libitina was also dedicated on 10 August in the Lucus Libitinae on the Esquiline. This area was the headquarters of undertakers (libitinarii) where lists of the dead were kept and funerals arranged. Plutarch speculates on the curious connection: was it a philosophical device (instituted by Numa) to eliminate repugnace of funerals or a reminder that one goddess presides over births and deaths? Varro distinguishes between Venus Libitina and Venus Libentina, the goddess of sensual pleasure. (note 225)

I would like to thank Pontifex C Aelius Ericius for helping me fine a copy of this wonderful book. Mille grati tbi ago, Erici!

Valete, L Equitius

Subject:	Re: [For Roman fans of Celine Dion]
From:
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:36:18 EDT

In a message dated 8/19/99 12:10:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=251056091098082116048038031024172089067083044234209130152" >Verci--------orix2@--------</a> writes:

<< Good gods, no wonder the Roman Empire fell. >>

It's the French's fault!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Elections
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:36:04 -0400

Salvete Caie Africane et alii



>From: <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=081166234150056086048038203219129208071" >vandewge@--------</a>
>
>
>First let me say that I am comparatively new to this arena. Although I've
been a citizen of NR since August 98,

You have been here longer than I have.

>Annals of NR and this List so forgiveme if I speak out of ignorance.

If that is ignorance, then, we are all ignorant.

CAC As a concerned citizen, I find the discourse going on here quite
disturbing.

CMM Me too. If everyone would just agree with me and proclaim me Imperator,
everything would be so much better! :)

CAC Apparently the new Republic is gowing through some growing pains and
from the dialogue going on here emotions are getting in the way of reaching
some direction that is best for the Republic and its citizens.

CMM Actually, things have degenerated into more raw emotion than this in
the past. I thought that you read the annals? Anyway, I cannot speak for
others, but I stand behind everything that I post here -- I may become a bit
emotional from time to time because I invest emotion into things that have
meaning for me. I suspect that this is true for other people too.

>
CAC>3. Th kind of bickering going on here will drive away any future
citizens and needs to be changed.

CMM If you want to change the subject, one strategy would be to introduce a
new topic. If other people find it of interest/relevance, they may pick up
the thread and drown out some of the bickering that you don't like. I am
quite positive, however, that I won't shut up just because you or someone
else tells me that I should. After all, I'm not posting sports scores, I'm
discussing Nova Roma, the micronation to which this list is devoted.

CAC I for one truly believe in the concept of an independent Republic and
will work to see it hapen. Currently I may be the lone citizen in this
Provincia but will not be able to know until an enumaration is accomplished
and I know what kind of voice or recourse I have to participate in
government.

CMM You're right, tribal and centuriate assignments are important things. I
am sure that I am just as eager to see this done and posted as you are.

CAC I want the elected magistrate to do their job and those citizens who
are unhappy with the final decisions can work to change them in the future
or give up their citizenship.

CMM That's very fair. I hope that you are able to effect positive change
with your work.
>
>4. According to a statement issued by Dictator Germanicus (7/4/99), Quintus
Caecillius Metelus was appointed Tribune Plebis. I would ask that he
convene an emergency meeting of the comitia to vote on the ratification of
the acta of Germanicus.

CMM Well, you must be new here after all. If you can produce Q Caecilius
Metellus, you must be a magus. Ooops, that was blunt of me. Sorry, Quinte
Caecili, if you're still alive and out there.

CAC The constitution is a contract between the people and its government
and MUST be lived up to. Once broken the people loose faith in that
government which can be the downfall of all.

CMM Some of the people, some very special people, already lost faith in Nova
Roma's government, and who can blame them? Hopefully, we can all now pull
together and make this work.

CAC many of you have worked hard to see the Republic become a reality and I
believe it can happen.

CMM I guess that, if I believed that it could NOT be done, I would have left
by now. I am doing my best in my own little way to help. It may make a
difference, it may not. Only time will tell.
>
>Velet omnes
>Gaius Africanus Germanicus
>
>P.S. Where is the voice of my Paterfamilias - gens Africania
>
You are the first Africanus that I have seen here.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Mixing It (was Undiluted Irish)
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:57:52 PDT

Salvete!

Thank you, Kyrene (and Germanicus) for valiantly keeping an alternative
thread going, among all the politics... Scripsit Kyrene:

>Actually, I wasn't even referring to that.... what they would undoubtedly
>cringe at would be considered "Roman"...their definitions of barbarism, I
>know,
>are very different from the Roman standard.

- let's go into Greek mode for a minute: 'Barbari' derives from
'BARBAROPHONOI' (= 'babblers', i.e. foreigners who seem to be saying
'barbarbarbar' all the time). The Greeks applied this term to the Persians,
who were (as they well knew) as civilized as they, if not more so.

>Celts are rather proud to be
>Celts. Don't call them by another name within hearing range! ;) It may
>be
>considered a compliment by the Romans, but well... tribal pride
>notwithstanding....

>Hence why I don't mix the two groups, Irish and Roman. Rome may have never
>made it to Ireland, per se, but I like to be... shall I say... diplomatic?
>Are you a dual person too?

- A dual person? No more than any relatively new Roman citizen, I think. On
my father's side I trace my descent from the illustrious Boii tribe(hence
the nomen gentilis 'Moravius'). The Greek praenomen is my mother's
contribution. So I'm a mongrel (my Greek is barbarous!)

I find it fitting to honour the gods in a multiple way, as you do, and as
many others do here: this is a great gift Rome gave the Celtic world -
choice of religious belief. No more being told what to think by those
caste-determined Druids.

Ours is a culture of opportunity: like many in Britannia, I am doing my best
to be Roman and civilized (buying into a prestige, globalizing lifestyle, as
it were). One waters one's wine so as to be able to swill it like beer and
still stand up afterwards (no, Vercingetorix, NOT sea-water: what would
_you_ know about that in the Averna?). One learns not to wear check trousers
with one's toga. One tries to visit the baths at Aquae Sulis at least once a
year (whether one needs to or not), and no longer has one's collection of
severed heads on display when the Governor's representatives come to call.
(Come to think of it, I _am_ one of the Governor's representatives now). (Ah
well, those heads still make excellent paperweights...)

>who still likes her Harp and Guinness. :)

- Nah! A good Setinian's the thing to drink when the harp goes around!

- et sic Germanicus:

>>And especially don't pronounce it "Selts"! (Having lived in Boston for 6
>years, you've no idea how many times I've heard that and cringed myself,
>even only being 1/4 Irish!)

- I would imagine Boston has quite a large Seltic population, especially on
March 17th ;-)

> > Hence why I don't mix the two groups, Irish and Roman. Rome may have
>never
> > made it to Ireland, per se, but I like to be... shall I say...
>diplomatic?
>
>I do remember hearing something about a Roman trade center being discovered
>on the eastern coast of Ireland. Did anything ever come of that excavation?

- I seem to remember reading a post about it on the Brit. List about a month
ago but I'm perditus if I can find it now. Was it one of yours, Claudi
Nigelle?

Valete bene,

Vado.

Subject:	Re: Re: Mixing It (was Undiluted Irish)
From:	K--------e Ariadne <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200028091056078198169061186140081090177098100046209130" >k--------eariadne@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:10:42 -0700 (PDT)

--- Nicolaus Moravius <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a> wrote:
> Salvete!

Salvete! :)

> Thank you, Kyrene (and Germanicus) for valiantly keeping an alternative
> thread going, among all the politics...

Hey, I try....

> I find it fitting to honour the gods in a multiple way, as you do, and as
> many others do here: this is a great gift Rome gave the Celtic world -
> choice of religious belief. No more being told what to think by those
> caste-determined Druids.

*raises eyebrows*

That's a new one on me... I never heard anything about the Druids "imposing"
religious beliefs on the Celts. As for a caste system... was there not one in
ancient Rome as well?

And besides... the Romans did their fair share of banning religious rites that
they didn't like, either. Bacchus comes readily to mind. :)

> Ours is a culture of opportunity: like many in Britannia, I am doing my best
> to be Roman and civilized (buying into a prestige, globalizing lifestyle, as
> it were). One waters one's wine so as to be able to swill it like beer and
> still stand up afterwards (no, Vercingetorix, NOT sea-water: what would
> _you_ know about that in the Averna?).

Ancient Hellenes did this as well. :)

> >who still likes her Harp and Guinness. :)
> - Nah! A good Setinian's the thing to drink when the harp goes around!

*blinks*

Harp's a beer, y'know. ;)

> >>And especially don't pronounce it "Selts"! (Having lived in Boston for 6
> >years, you've no idea how many times I've heard that and cringed myself,
> >even only being 1/4 Irish!)
> - I would imagine Boston has quite a large Seltic population, especially on
> March 17th ;-)

Oh ye gods, don't go there! Images of green beer come to mind, yuck!





Valete et khairete,


Andrea Gladia Kyrinia








===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
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-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: Constitution and Dictatorship
From:	Steven Rob--------n <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015056190036129" >amgunn@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:43:20 -0700

Avete Omnes,

Venator scribbles:

If I may offer my take on the debate.

My understanding is that we are in the midst of building Nova Roma,
Iteration II.

The Interregnum declared by the Directors of the Non-profit Corporation,
with the assistance of a Consul and the Senate of Nova Roma, Iteration I,
seems to me to have negated the old Constitution. They appointed a Dictator
under their authority as the governing body of Nova Roma Inc and the State
of Nova Roma. It reads to me that the Board negotiated away their
independantly supreme authority as part of a new Constitution, accompanied
by new Laws, Edicts, Decrees, etceteras - as ratified by the new Senate.

We are in a situation here not dissimilar to rebuilding a city fully
destroyrd by natural disaster. We have memories of that which was and of
those who shared the old city. The appearance, location and most of the
population may be the same, but it is a new city. All of us who were
Citizens prior to Midsummer must look into the mirror for who is at least
partially responsible, for the "Crisis" and the Future.

I ask that we set aside what is past and concentrate on making the new
system work.

mea sententia

In Amicus - Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator - Cives, Paterfamilias, etceteras

Subject:	Re Constitution and Dictatorship
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:41:54 -0400

Salvete Piperbarbe Vlleri et alii

I agree on the whole with your perspective on this, and it's a great
analogy, but

All of us who were
>Citizens prior to Midsummer must look into the mirror for who is at least
>partially responsible, for the "Crisis" and the Future.

Really? How am I responsible for the "Crisis"?

Sorry, I can't accept that blame. The face that looks back at me may not be
pretty, but it had nothing whatsoever to do with the
Impeachment/Interregnum.
>
>I ask that we set aside what is past and concentrate on making the new
>system work.

Yes, let's do it.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

Subject:	Mistaken Identity
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:58:29 PDT

Salvete! Scripsit Cincinnatus:

> > (How appropriate that a picture of Augustus up on the website since we
>are
> > not a Republic anymore).

- post haec respondit Palladius:

>Augustus, eh? I appreciate the attempt at flattery, truly I do, Lucius
>Equitius, but I am not Augustus.

- Ohh. I thought it was a statue of Germanicus :-^).

Et sic Palladius iterum:

>We had an expression in the
>Marine Corps, Lucius Equitius: "Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the
>way." Right now, you're just in the way.

- thank you, Palladi, for sharing that maxim with us. I'm sure it works
splendidly in the Marine Corps. This is Nova Roma, however, a
rather more voluntary (and discursively democratic) organisation. Please
take off that Marines hat -it really doesn't match your toga praetexta :-).

Valete, omnes (etiamque Palladius),

Vado.

Subject:	Re: Mixing It
From:	"Jason Kopeny" jkopeny@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:52:09 +0200

>Message: 22
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:10:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: K--------e Ariadne <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200028091056078198169061186140081090177098100046209130" >k--------eariadne@--------</a>
>Subject: Re: Re: Mixing It (was Undiluted Irish)
>
>--- Nicolaus Moravius <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a> wrote:
>> Salvete!
>
>Salvete! :)
>
>> Thank you, Kyrene (and Germanicus) for valiantly keeping an alternative
>> thread going, among all the politics...
>
>Hey, I try....


It's discussions like these that keep me around here I think...
>
>> I find it fitting to honour the gods in a multiple way, as you do, and as
>> many others do here: this is a great gift Rome gave the Celtic world -
>> choice of religious belief. No more being told what to think by those
>> caste-determined Druids.
>
>*raises eyebrows*
>
>That's a new one on me... I never heard anything about the Druids
"imposing"
>religious beliefs on the Celts. As for a caste system... was there not one
in
>ancient Rome as well?
>
>And besides... the Romans did their fair share of banning religious rites
that
>they didn't like, either. Bacchus comes readily to mind. :)


Or Christianity for that reason. Most people seem to think that had they not
been persecuted, it never would have grown like it did. (Please do not take
this as a slam on Rome, Christ, Christianity, Islam, or the tooth fairy for
that matter. It is not!)

>
>> Ours is a culture of opportunity: like many in Britannia, I am doing my
best
>> to be Roman and civilized (buying into a prestige, globalizing lifestyle,
as
>> it were). One waters one's wine so as to be able to swill it like beer
and
>> still stand up afterwards (no, Vercingetorix, NOT sea-water: what would
>> _you_ know about that in the Averna?).
>
>Ancient Hellenes did this as well. :)
>
>> >who still likes her Harp and Guinness. :)
>> - Nah! A good Setinian's the thing to drink when the harp goes around!
>
>*blinks*
>
>Harp's a beer, y'know. ;)


That it is, and a good one. But Duvel is still one of my all time favorites.
Too bad they're having trouble importing it to the US right now... :(
>
>> >>And especially don't pronounce it "Selts"! (Having lived in Boston for
6
>> >years, you've no idea how many times I've heard that and cringed myself,
>> >even only being 1/4 Irish!)
>> - I would imagine Boston has quite a large Seltic population, especially
on
>> March 17th ;-)
>
>Oh ye gods, don't go there! Images of green beer come to mind, yuck!


And what is wrong with Green Beer (except the fact that it tends to be Bud
or Miller, which are pretty rancid, I will admit.)?
>
>
>
>
>
>Valete et khairete,
>
>
>Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
>


On a more serious note though, can anyone tell me where I can find some info
on Marcus Agrippa, the right hand of Augustus? Everything about him seems to
be out of print...


Jason

Subject:	NR Home Page
From:	"Gary E. McGrath" Garymac@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:27:19 +0000

Just went to the NR Home Page and "Beachead USA" came up instead. . .can
anyone tell me what the deal is?

Vale,
M. Iunius Iulianus

Subject:	Re: Reminder: SW Provincial Get-together
From:	SDmtwi@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:29:33 EDT

Salvete.

> What weekend(s) would you like to go...? I'm leaning towards a later

My wife and I are shooting for Labor Day weekend, which, if I am not
mistaken, is September 4-6 (including the Monday). If possible, we'll arrive
on the evening of the 3rd. We're quite looking forward to the event, and
would love to see as many Nova Romans there as possible.

Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	Re: re: real event
From:	pallasathene@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:31:01 -0400 (EDT)

---- you wrote:
> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)
>
-- it's
> about time more of us got to meet and have a little fun.
>


Did someone say "fun"?! Just tell me when and where and what color your drapes are so my lampshade doesn't clash with your decor. :o)

(Merlinia: Thanks for the olives, they were fabulous!)

Studiose,

Minervina Iucundia Flavia
Propraetor SE USA Provincia and Senator

PS: I vote for Las Vegas! The airfare is CHEAP, the hotels are CHEAP, the food is CHEAP...No, I'm not cheap, I'm just POOR! LOL


----------------------------------------------------------------
Get your free email from AltaVista at <a href="http://altavista.iname.com" target="_top" >http://altavista.iname.com</a>

Subject:	Re: Mistaken Identity Re: Lucius Equitius
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:38:31 -0700

> Et sic Palladius iterum:
>
> >We had an expression in the
> >Marine Corps, Lucius Equitius: "Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the
> >way." Right now, you're just in the way.
>
> - thank you, Palladi, for sharing that maxim with us. I'm sure it works
> splendidly in the Marine Corps. This is Nova Roma, however, a
> rather more voluntary (and discursively democratic) organisation. Please
> take off that Marines hat -it really doesn't match your toga praetexta
:-).

It might not match his Toga, but let me add. I asked Lucius Equitius a
public question yesterday regarding HIS intent in Nova Roma. In case anyone
missed it. It was regarding his acceptance of his Senate Seat, his Flamen
Position, his Paterfamilias and citizenship. Specifically it was where he
stands on it? Now, Mr. Cope has posted today to Nova Roma, but has failed
to respond. Even privately. Now, this might not mean much to many of you,
but it does mean alot to me. I want Nova Roma to move forward, to recover
from these past few months. Obviously due to Mr. Cope's silence he doesnt
feel the same. I think that speaks volumes! Now I ask again. Lucius are
you going to help Nova Roma move forward and take your seat amongst your
peers OR are you going to be a constant disruption to everything that Nova
Roma is trying to rebuild and recover from?

L. Cornelius Sulla
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
Praetor Urbanus et Senator

Subject:	Nihil
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:18:14 -0700

Salvete.
Packing and repacking for a vacation and wishing I could join in the pillaging tour that
Aprica has set off in Britannia, I must admit that I'm sending this post solely to lead
into the sig line.
Valete.
Ericius

----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane
mittam." (Translation: I have a catapult. Give me all the money or I will
fling an enormous rock at your head.)

Subject:	Re: [affection for Vercingetorix
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:18:52 EDT

Love ya too, Vercingetorix
Q.

Subject:	Re: re Election Announcment (long)
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:25:22 EDT

In a message dated 8/19/1999 10:01:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=251166234193056045244038203219129208071" >VanDeWGe@--------</a> write--------r>
<< will post for Aedilis Plebis and provide a voice for the Plebian Tribes.<<
Welcome aboard, G. Africanus!
Q Fabius
Titles too numerous to name.

Subject:	Re: Re: Mixing It
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:41:01 -0700 (PDT)

--- Jason Kopeny <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=045202253115056116187218141036129208" >jkopeny@--------</a> wrote:
> >> Salvete!
> >Salvete! :)

And salvete again!

> >Hey, I try....
> It's discussions like these that keep me around here I think...

Same here. :)

Being rather new here, I don't pretend to understand the politics that goes on
here... I've been in ADF for two years, and I still don't completely understand
how they run! So joining in the majority of the discussions is kinda useless
for me. I imagine that there are others who feel the same way, and I don't
feel so much ashamed for my ignorance as I am...frustrated. I imagine that
I'll learn more with time.

Now, if it was directed towards the Religio or philosophy, I'd get along much
better, and have more to say!

> >> this is a great gift Rome gave the Celtic world -
> >> choice of religious belief. No more being told what to think by those
> >> caste-determined Druids.
> >*raises eyebrows*
> >That's a new one on me... I never heard anything about the Druids
> "imposing" religious beliefs on the Celts. As for a caste system... was > >
there not one in ancient Rome as well?
> >And besides... the Romans did their fair share of banning religious rites
> that they didn't like, either. Bacchus comes readily to mind. :)
> Or Christianity for that reason. Most people seem to think that had they not
> been persecuted, it never would have grown like it did. (Please do not take
> this as a slam on Rome, Christ, Christianity, Islam, or the tooth fairy for
> that matter. It is not!)

Oh, no, it isn't. It's merely a statement of fact. Every religion started out
as a "weirdo cult" until they got good press from those who managed to get into
higher positions.

Look what the Edict of Milan did for Christianity! Had a Pagan been elected to
the office, would he have done that? Especially someone who *didn't* have a
very Christian mother as his influence, as Constantine did?

Regarding the Roman vs Celtic thing.... It's rather awkward for me to be in
this position, you see! I *want* to defend the Celts, and if I have the
knowledge to do so, I will! Call me adopted by the Morrigan, but.... :)

And at the same time, I'm also strongly pulled towards my Hellenic end, and
that's where my desire to learn more about the Roman culture nearby comes from.

Thanks for your post, BTW... I was busy putting on my asbestos suit after I
sent it.... ;)

> >> >who still likes her Harp and Guinness. :)
> >> - Nah! A good Setinian's the thing to drink when the harp goes around!
> >*blinks*
> >Harp's a beer, y'know. ;)
> That it is, and a good one. But Duvel is still one of my all time favorites.
> Too bad they're having trouble importing it to the US right now... :(

Duvel... haven't heard of it. I'm new to this world of drinking. I never
touched a drop, and flatly refused until I turned 18, and discovered that there
actually *was* decent alcohol out there.

I promptly got adopted by Dionysos a year later... after Apollon, of course!

Coincidence? I'll have Mulder get back to you on that one.

> >> - I would imagine Boston has quite a large Seltic population, especially
> on March 17th ;-)
> >Oh ye gods, don't go there! Images of green beer come to mind, yuck!
> And what is wrong with Green Beer (except the fact that it tends to be Bud
> or Miller, which are pretty rancid, I will admit.)?

I don't know what's worse; drinking green beer or drinking *BAD* green beer!

I don't touch the American stuff. Saranac and Blue Moon, and that's usually
about it. Though I admit that Honey Brown isn't TOO bad....

> On a more serious note though, can anyone tell me where I can find some info
> on Marcus Agrippa, the right hand of Augustus? Everything about him seems to
> be out of print...

Wasn't he the same guy that was so honored by having his name put on the
Pantheon after it was built, something to the effect of "Marcus Agrippa built
this"? He didn't actually, but it was to honor him, as if to say, "I couldn't
have done this without him," or some such.

I recall something vaguely like this back from my Arts of Antiquity class...
unless I got the wrong man! ;)


Valete et khairete,


-Andrea Gladia Kyrinia



===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Interesting Site
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:14:04 -0700

I have found an interesting site on Roman Mythology. Here is the addy: <a href="http://pantheon.org/mythica/areas/roman/" target="_top" >http://pantheon.org/mythica/areas/roman/</a> Enjoy! :)

L. Cornelius Sulla

Subject:	Elections, the Constitution, Tribes, Centuries, Dirty Dishes and the Cat Box.
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:45:25 -0700

Salvete, Quirites et barbariculi!

It seems like I'm always reading about ancient Rome. Some of it is new material, some is
in the rerun category. I keep on learning and gaining insights. Nova Roma, as a live and
ongoing experiment has also added to those insights. One of those bears on how the
ancients kept trying to work with the system they had, however it had come about. Another
is that all those struggles for reforming the government were really about one self
centered faction trying what it could to stick it to the faction closest to it. And that
the People did not get much more than a sop, if that. I'm talking about ancient Rome
here, kiddies! Relax.

At present, in Nova Roma, we have a Constitution which might work, if given a chance. Of
course it is replacing the constitution we had last year, which might have worked, if
given a chance. It got snuffed when a tempest in a teapot freaked out the powers that
were and they pulled the plug. Then they put it back in and let the rest of us play
again. Obviously most of us are willing to work with the Nova Roma we have before us.
Evidence being that we are still here, while others who thought themselves indispensable
dispensed with themselves and are missed only on a personal level. That individuals are
missed only as unique individuals and not as an important part of the mechanism of
"government" is to the credit of that system of "government". If all of the faction
leaders would just pipe down and get down to the running of this "state" then it will
run. If people just can't tear themselves away from going over what was not done to their
perception of constitutional perfection then all we will have is a series of these
squabbles until Nova Roma spirals into the ground. Or has its plug pulled for good.
Palladius used a USMC saying, but there is also the analogy of the "ship of state". Ship
analogy guys!: If the bridge crew isn't allowed to steer this thing on a safe course it is
going to be Back on the rocks. Now I know that you important people won't pay attention
to what this mere QM3 has to say, except to scream insults at me for the parts you think
are personal, but seeing that I've invested a lot into this boat, including my own butt, I
will make a few observations. The People will feel better when they know who is in what
tribe and century. Maybe that isn't necessary, that the People know, but it will make them
happy. Since there can't be an election until the structure is done, we don't need to
worry about it until it is done. Stop picking nits for the sake of picking nits. Stop
making pronouncements for whatever reason you all are doing that. Let us get this barge
back on course and keep it there.

I am going to be attacked for this post. High brow attacks and low brow attacks and
snideness brooking on insult in between. I was blasted for voting my conscience in the
Senate. I am now arguing in defense of what I voted against. That should leave me
entirely out in the cold, if it weren't for the searing napalm that will be incoming. I
only know what I read on the list. And that seems to be either confusing or discouraging.

Note. I have not said particulars about what I think of the legality of this or that, the
intentions of one person or another. I could. It has been tempting. It would be
irrelevant. If we don't [**cliche alert**] get the ship of state back on an even keel and
on course people will be jumping ship.

I might as well throw some names in. Not that these people don't know I've been thinking
about them. They just might not know I'm spraying the whole field.
Cincinatus- Let it go! Stop harping on what is dead. What is done is done. Help to run
the ship we have. If what you fear comes up again people might [might, maybe] remember
what you've been saying.
Cassius, Palladius, Vedius- Have faith in what you have built. Call it whatever type of
-ocracy you want, or even a "thing of the people". It is based on voting. You have the
votes. I knew that when I was deciding how to vote in the senate. I knew I would
accomplish no more than voting my principles, and clear the way for working with the new
government. If I can count heads and tell the difference between a mountain and a
molehill, you should be able to. And if somebody wants to change the size of those
mounds, if somebody wants to change the numbers on one side or the other, they should try
something more constructive than having shouting matches in the Forum.

I am going on vacation. The calender that L. Marius Fimbria set up for our NovaRomaList
has been so informed, and it should be informing all of you. So, if you do not see any
response from me to whatever comments this post might get from any of you out there, it
does NOT mean that I am conceding anything, nor does it mean that I am being hard headed.
I will access the archives when I return. I know there will still be a Nova Roma. I hope
it will have moved on.

Di Deaque te mihi semper servent.
Bene Valete.

C. Aelius Ericius
Senator of Nova Roma
Propraetor of California Provincia
Pontifex
Augur
Paterfamilias of gens Aelia.

Subject:	Re: Constitution and Dictatorship
From:	Steven Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:31:13 -0700

Salutamus Gaius Marius Merullus,

I have gained much through your perspective on the new Constitution and
Laws.

>
> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
> Salvete Piperbarbe Vlleri et alii
>
> I agree on the whole with your perspective on this, and it's a great
> analogy, but
>
> All of us who were
> >Citizens prior to Midsummer must look into the mirror for who is at least
> >partially responsible, for the "Crisis" and the Future.
>
> Really? How am I responsible for the "Crisis"?
>
> Sorry, I can't accept that blame. The face that looks back at me may not be
> pretty, but it had nothing whatsoever to do with the
> Impeachment/Interregnum.
>

Perhaps my brush had too broad a stroke here and I should have separated the
past and future better in my phrasing. I was writing in the sense that we
who were of "Nova Roma I," maybe, could have headed off the blowup? I do
tend to overthink things sometimes, and I feel we could have done more.
What? I'm not sure.

Now, to our future!

My offer of a special edition of basic Mead Manuals to benefit the treasury
of Nova Roma still stands. I have received good feedback on manuals I have
sent out thus far. I still have several dozen copies. Cassius has several
copies of the 25 I sent for "Roman Days." 100 copies I printed for Nova
Rome - 25 sent for Roman Days - 12 I've sold leaves 63 more I have
available. After these are gone, any future sales to Romans will be at the
same price, but US$2 to the treasury.

I've even sold a couple of copies to Asatruar.

If any of you would like a copy, send a check made out to Steven P. Robinson
in the amount of US$8.00. My mailing address is PMB 257, 7431 E. State St.,
Rockford, IL, 61108-2678. $5 of this will go to an escrow account on behalf
of Nova Roma, which funds will go to the treasury when I am assured the
State is once again accepting donations. We'll figure out a way of
accomodating our non-North American Cives.

In Amicus et in Spes pro Futura!

Venator