Subject:	Re: Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:05:22 +0100

Salve Cassi

>And just what decisions do you wish to see made, Antonius Gryllus Graecus?
If
>you have an agenda to introduce I politely ask you to submit it directly to
>the Pontificial College itself rather than to the Nova Roma list.
As a politician, my agenda tries to have a political approach. I am going to
propose legislation on the accumulation of offices.

>If you had bothered to inquire to the Pontificial College, you would know
>that there are two new applications that have been placed for Pontificial
>position. The first will be formally voted on when C. Aelius Ericius
returns
>from his vacation, and the second will be formally introduced at that time.
I apollogise for not having asked the Collegium and thank you for this
information.

>Graecus, I must respectfully ask you to check your facts before you make
>public posts. The Pontificial College has set up its own Internet list and
>meets regularly. The only lack of "action" has been due to the fact that
the
>Collegia has been *recieving* very few priesthood applications. Even with
the
>brand new online priesthood application form and priesthood criteria that
>have just been set up in the Pantheon section of the NR site we've had only
>four applicants since the um, Social Wars.
I apologize too, but theink that public reports about the actions of the
Collegia are very useful in motivating citizens. Your posting was very
useful. Moreover, with the turmoil that has been going on here, I really
though the Collegia were (understandably) idle, that's why I wrote:

> After the elections take place and we are certain that the Centuries and
> Tribes are correctly setup, we must IMMEDIATELY start to care about the
> Religio. This is not a thing for after the next elections. This is a thing
> for now, for now we are not being able to correspond to the aspirations of
> many good romans.

Vale Cassi et gratias

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Tribunus Plebis et coetera

Subject:	Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:15:38 +0100

Salve

>>All of us are marvelled with the way our governmental institutions seem to
>>be working. The reform in the Senate finally allowed active people to take
>>important decisions such as the approval of a new and workable
Constitution.
>[SNIP]
>
>Odd statement for you to make, Tribune, when you are the very person who
>declined to advance the right of the citizens to vote their approval or
>disapproval of these changes over which you "marvel."
Your misunderstanding is only due to the word 'people'. Read it as 'persons'
and not 'people of Nova Roma'.

>>After careful reasoning I decided not to include the ratification of the
new
>>Constitution in order of works of the Comitia Plebis. Although some
citizens
>>have requested some action for the sake of the people, I have taken my
>>decision precisely for the sake of the people.
If you read carefully my statement, you would understand that there was no
logic way of having the Comitia ratigying the new Constitution, and I took
my decision after careful study and talks with several citizens and
magistrates. Anyway, you and the people will have the opportunity to judge
my decision.

>Where did you get your political education -- in Beijing?
>Changes are (paradoxically) a constant in all aspects of life, political
>and otherwise. We all must learn to live with changes. But we'll get
>along better if you don't try to serve them garnished with such
>bald-faced hypocrisy.
Think twice before offending. If you have something to say vote or offer
yourself as a candidate for Tribune in the next elections.

>Vedius' new constitution may prove more workable than his old one, and it
>is certainly laudable that he finally completed the allocation of
>citizens to tribes and centuries (thanks in no small measure to Lucius
>Equitius Cinncinatus). But it doesn't bode well that no-one in office
>seems inclined to submit any of this to the judgement of the citizens of
>this Republic. So has it _really_ been fixed?
The participation of the people will in fact ratify the Constitution.

>And while I'm speaking up, I for one welcome participation by Flavia
>Claudia. She may be quick-tempered and quarrelsome at times (who here
>isn't?), but at least she's an honest, outspoken, literate and worthy
>adversary. Apparently there are some here who recognize that they're not
>in her league?
I cannot see the purpose of the participation of non-citizens in our
affairs, even less to dictate our future end.

>Lucius Sergius Australicus
>(still waiting to see if there is to be a nova Nova Roma)
If you don't believe, please go away. In that Flavia Claudia was more honest
that you are being.

Vale

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Tribunus

Subject:	Comitia
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:39:11 +0100

Salvete omnes

As a citizen and Tribunus Plebis I'd like to thank all those that have
contributed to set up the new Constitution and electoral procedures. It is
really well done. I'd like to praise our Censores Germanicus and Palladius
and our Senate. I'd also like to praise the invisible (yet important)
background work of our curatores Merullo and Fortunatus.

Ave Res Publica!

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Tribunus Plebis

Subject:	Re: Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	"M. Papirius Justus" papirius@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:29:48 -0400

At 07:06 PM 26/08/1999 EDT, Cassius scripsit inter alia:

The Pontificial College has set up its own Internet list and
meets regularly. The only lack of "action" has been due to the fact that the
Collegia has been *recieving* very few priesthood applications. Even with the
brand new online priesthood application form and priesthood criteria that
have just been set up in the Pantheon section of the NR site we've had only
four applicants since the um, Social Wars.

Respondeo:

I strongly suspect your lack of response is due to the first criterion:

1. We ask that applicants have sincere religious feeling for the deity
who's priesthood they wish to undertake. It is necessary that the applicant
worship that deity in private life in addition to being willing to preside
over public rituals on behalf of Nova Roma. As our central goal is to
restore sincere as well as traditional worship of the ancient Gods, we
cannot grant Priesthood status to Citizens who apply only for reasons of
historical curiosity or for purposes of secular historical reenactment.

I also note the following line in the preamble to our new constitution (and
the old one):

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma
shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical
and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic.
The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma
shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome. "

Quaeritur:

Is it 'practical and acceptable' in this age to believe that someone
applying, e.g., to the position of pontiff, would have sincere religious
feeling for 'the deity' (which deity is it that a pontifex is devoted to?
what deity is an augur devoted to). Indeed, was it 'practical and
acceptable' in ancient Rome (as far as I'm aware, e.g., for most of the
period of the Republic, the positions of pontiff and augur were as much
matters of politics as religion (if not more))? I can't help but be
reminded of Cicero's famous quip about wondering how two augures could pass
each other on the street without laughing. And here's something else -- I'm
sure there are plenty of learned folks on this list who do know quite a bit
about ancient religion who also happen to be Christian or Muslim (and whose
employment might actually depend on genuine sincere belief in the message
of those religions) and who could be quite effective at performing rituals
and instructing others in the same; but such knowledge will go to waste
with the 'sincere' requirement. Is that 'practical'?

We don't expect the milites among us to actually go out and kill people.
Our political functionaries have no 'real' power in this world. Heck, I
suspect most of the folks around here don't appear to know Latin to any
conversational degree. When I go to the chat room, I don't actually get a
cup of Falernian (heck, I seem to keep missing everyone). I'm also 99%
positive that none of our pontifices has ever presided over an actual
sacrifice -- whether as a pontifex or a privatus, which to me (and, indeed,
to the Romans) would have been one of the signs of 'sincere belief'.

mpj
]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:42:30 EDT

In a message dated 8/27/99 2:02:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> writes:

Graecus:
As a politician, my agenda tries to have a political approach. I am going to
propose legislation on the accumulation of offices.

Cassius:
It appears to me that your political agenda has little to do with religious
issues, or the 'call for action' in regard to the Pontificial College which
you just posted to the list. I apologize if I was taking your statements the
wrong way, but it seemed very like you had some sort of major problem with
the Pontificial College directly - even though you have not been in contact
with it.

Graecus:
> I apollogise for not having asked the Collegium and thank you for this
information.

Cassius:
Not a problem. The Pontificial College is in fact *very* easy to reach. Go to
the Priesthoods page in the Pantheon section of the NR site... there you will
fi-------- group Email address for: '<a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=197233234165082131036102163219114090071048139" >po--------ices@--------</a>' as well as a
listing of the personal Email addresses of each individual Pontiff. We will
be happy to answer any questions or inquiries that any Citizen might have.
This includes not only "business" questions but also general questions on the
Religio Romana as well.

Graecus:
> I apologize too, but theink that public reports about the actions of the
Collegia are very useful in motivating citizens. Your posting was very
useful. Moreover, with the turmoil that has been going on here, I really
though the Collegia were (understandably) idle, that's why I wrote:

Cassius:
Again, I must admit to being a little confused. You mention that my posted
public progress reports were very useful... yet you seemed to ignore all the
posted information with your 'call' for Nova Roma to address some sort of
problem of idleness within the Pontificial College. I must say your posting
came as a complete surprise. The Collegia has been very active and has
accomplished a great deal in the last few months. An outcry to end 'idleness'
within the Collegium was rather out of step with the facts.

If you feel that there is some means of keeping the Citizens informed of
current events besides making periodic postings of news, being available for
questions and putting information up on the NR site, I'd very much like to
hear about it. We're always looking for new ideas. :)

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

Subject:	Re: Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:15:39 +0100

Salve Cassi

>> I apologize too, but theink that public reports about the actions of the
> Collegia are very useful in motivating citizens. Your posting was very
> useful. Moreover, with the turmoil that has been going on here, I really
> though the Collegia were (understandably) idle, that's why I wrote:
>Again, I must admit to being a little confused. You mention that my posted
>public progress reports were very useful... yet you seemed to ignore all
the
>posted information with your 'call' for Nova Roma to address some sort of
>problem of idleness within the Pontificial College. I must say your posting
>came as a complete surprise.
What I meant was that there should be more public reports like the one you
sent today as an answer.

Vale

Antonius Gryllus Gracus
Tribunus Plebis

Subject:	Falernian
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:52:08 -0400 (EDT)

M. Papirius Justus;

Sir; I cannot of course speak to the portion of your discourse in regard
to Religio Romano, however, I believe I may be able to assist you in
another way. In the few times that I have visited the Chat Room, I have
always called for and recieved a pitcher of Falernian to refresh myself
with. You may, should you so desire, upon your return to that abode of
wine and friendship, ask the tender of the wine to sample my private
stock. I will send an authoizing message to the establishment. Enjoy
it in good health, and in the joy of comaraderie. Would that I might
join you..

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Have You Seen Me?
From:	George VanDeWater VanDeWGe@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:09:51 -0600

Salve,
I --------that my name i-------- the li--------f inactive email addre--------. I'm not -------- why a--------ju--------eceived an email from you at that addre--------It --------ld be <"<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=081166234150056086048038203219129208071" >vandewge@--------</a>">.

Vale
G. Africanus Secundus Germanicus

>>> "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> 08/26 8:20 PM >>> From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>

Salvete!

The following citizens' email addresses are no longer valid. If you are one
of them, or k--------o--------f them, please se--------mail to <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=219056234112193209090218066036129208" >ce--------s@--------</a> with
your correct email address! (And for the rest of you, remember to let us
know when you change email addresses-- I know I change mine pretty often,
but we do communicate primarily by email, so it's really important we remain
apprised of any changes. Thanks!

Scipio Africanus
Gaius Africanus Secundus Germanicus
Lucian Ambrosius Neptunius
Secundia Ancinna Octavia
Marcus Aurelius
Josephus Aurelianus Pannonicus
Lilia Avita Verina
Dionysius Bellio
Flavius Claudius Tertius Julianus
Livia Cornelia
Oppius Dexius Felix
Livia Drusilla Severa Anotonina
Tiberius Equilius Liberius
Gaius Equus Annaeus
Gersius Esmeradli
Flavius Eutropius
Gaius Brutius Fabricius
Iulius Fennicus Angelos
Tiberius Flaminius Mercator
Gnaeus Flavius Tacitus
Caius Trajanus
Artus Galicianus Jacobus
Lucius Gellius Severus
Marcellus Hyeanus Vindictus
Nostrus Hyeanus Maximus
Optimus Hyeanus Primus
Gaius Iulius Iulianus
Tiberius Iunius
Amethysta Iunia Crystallina
Gaius Justinianus
Tertia Libertania Regina
Gaius Marius Merullus
Gaius Marius Oppidifinis Orator
Marcus Minucius Audens
Natalia Minucia Bactricia
Quintus Mucius Scaevola Rufus
Gaius Olivarius Mezentius
Secundia Olivaria Raina
Claudius Olivarius Cassivellaunus Tigrus
Marisia Olivaria Felicita
Paulus Olympius Gallus
Prisca Paulina
Ceres Planincolia Cornelia Delphina
Tiberius Portius Sarno
Pulchra Dea
Lucilius Remulius
Marcus Salix Vigilius
Sentius Saturninus
Cassius Septimus Moguntius
Claudius Silvanius Firmus
Sabinilla Silvania Panthea
Silvania Flora
Accpiter Sitheius Thracius
Flavius Vallerius
Augustus Vellius Natalis
Gregorius Verus Stoicum
Marcus Vinicius Terentius
Marcus Julius Virginianus

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Censor


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Address
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:16:38 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete, Censors;

Hmmmmmmm! Here I thought that I was a frequent enough contributor to
the list to be on your address listing. Perhaps there is something that
I don't know about?? Since Palladius and I have had some recent
correspondence. like today, I am surpised that your list contains my
name. The above address I believe will reach me if the many NR messages
in my mail box this morning are any indication.

Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:50:55 EDT

In a message dated 8/27/99 5:34:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a> wr--------:

Papirius:
> Is it 'practical and acceptable' in this age to believe that someone
applying, e.g., to the position of pontiff, would have sincere religious
feeling for 'the deity' (which deity is it that a pontifex is devoted to?
what deity is an augur devoted to).

Cassius:
Not only is an expectation of sincere religious feeling 'practical and
acceptable', it is *crucial*. Our goal is to rebuild an actual living
religion, not act out a sham. Both Pontifices and Augurs are expected to
believe in the existence of the Gods and have reverence for them. While it is
of course impossible to *truly* tell what a person believes within
themselves, we still try to do all that can be done to insure that people
holding Priesthood position are sincere. Hence the six-month Camillia
"apprenticeship" program where there is longer term evaluation.

Those among us who have Pietas for the ancient Gods of Rome would prefer a
small but "real" Religio Romana to a set of "for show" religious
reenactments.

Papirius:
> Indeed, was it 'practical and
acceptable' in ancient Rome (as far as I'm aware, e.g., for most of the
period of the Republic, the positions of pontiff and augur were as much
matters of politics as religion (if not more))? I can't help but be
reminded of Cicero's famous quip about wondering how two augures could pass
each other on the street without laughing. And here's something else -- I'm
sure there are plenty of learned folks on this list who do know quite a bit
about ancient religion who also happen to be Christian or Muslim (and whose
employment might actually depend on genuine sincere belief in the message
of those religions) and who could be quite effective at performing rituals
and instructing others in the same; but such knowledge will go to waste
with the 'sincere' requirement. Is that 'practical'?

Cassius:
Absolutely. If someone is Christian or Muslim they should be worshipping the
god of their heart, not play-acting the worship of deities in which they have
no faith. Worse yet, such reenactment would in a sense be a direct violation
of the religious codes to which they profess to adhere. ("Thou shalt have no
other Gods before me". But it's okay to pretend that you do for a public
crowd on the weekends!) ;)

There of course *were* periods in ancient Rome where the Pontiffs, Augurs and
Priesthoods were somewhat "diluted" by purely political appointments. Hence
that famous quote of total disbelief by Cicero. However it is a great mistake
to think that there was no real reverence for the Roman deities, or that the
religion at *any* time was without a strong foundation of belief.

Such infusions of insincerity into the Religio basically caused it's death in
the ancient world. By the third century, as more highly placed religious
officials became "politicians" rather than "spiritual" people, the populace
was far more easily swayed by Christianity which DID demand belief on behalf
of its priesthood. One of the first reforms that the Emperor Julian made in
his last ditch effort to save the Religio was to institute vast reforms of
the Pagan priesthood to make sure that those who acted on behalf of the Gods
actually had the spiritual connection and authority to do so. So far Nova
Roma has been very fortunate not to make the same mistakes that were made in
the ancient world.

Papirius:
> We don't expect the milites among us to actually go out and kill people.

Quite true. Yet even in that area there has been talk of adding more
"reality" to the reenactment. No, Nova Roma doesn't need a military as such,
but some folks interested in the legions have been wondering if the legions
couldn't take on building or engineering tasks at some far future point, or
at least have real exercise drills and other group activities that would be
more than just "putting on a show". There was more to the legions than just
sticking people with gladius and pilum, after all!

Papirius:
Our political functionaries have no 'real' power in this world.

Cassius:
Our political functionaries have a 'real' job in that they're responsible for
the running of Nova Roma, just as the officials of ANY organization are. The
work is real enough. As far as having influence in the outside world, that's
a much longer term goal. However, if you've read the website you've seen that
we do have serious aspirations of becoming an international entity such as
the Knights of Malta, which is considered a nation even though they claim
only one building as a world headquarters.

Papirius:
> Heck, I
suspect most of the folks around here don't appear to know Latin to any
conversational degree. When I go to the chat room, I don't actually get a
cup of Falernian (heck, I seem to keep missing everyone).

Cassius:
Since many of our Citizens are good natured folks there is of course some
"play". That's healthy! However it's a mistake to think that everyone here is
just acting because there is some idle chat in the forums, etc.

Papirius:
I'm also 99%
positive that none of our pontifices has ever presided over an actual
sacrifice -- whether as a pontifex or a privatus, which to me (and, indeed,
to the Romans) would have been one of the signs of 'sincere belief'.

Cassius:
There were *many* forms of acceptable sacrifice in the ancient Religio... the
sacrifice of the lives of animals was only one of many. That issue has come
up here several times. Our official policy is that blood sacrifice is not
something we're seeking to revive - instead other options that were used in
the ancient world are substituted. Even then, we've had at least one Citizen
who raises their own livestock for food and was going to be doing butchering
anyway... they had the skill, the means and intent to make religious
significance out of something that was already a part of daily life. Don't be
so positive that it's never been done.

As far as OTHER sincere forms of religious devotion, that goes on all the
time. Many of us worship sincerely at home Larariums. Patricia and I hold
monthly rituals for the public, and usually average about thirty people in
attendance. Others have organized rites in their own Provincia, etc. Nova
Roma in fact has many people who actually believe in the Gods, and who feel
the Religio is not just an act.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

Subject:	Re-Enactment
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:54:07 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete, Cives;

I will be gone for this weekend at a re-enactment just outside of
Easton,Mass. at a place called Borderlands State Park. I will be on
the Federal Staff Line.

I would like to take this opportunity to invite any NR Citizen (or
aspirant) to join me there for a face-to-face if you are so inclined.

So far I only have a very few (4) who are interested in coming to an NE
event at Foxwoods in the winter and I really have no Imerium to go
further with the project.without some additional support. Would anyone
be interested in hiring a local hall, staying in a local motel and
having a two day do-it-yourself program as probably the least expensive
way to meet? My wife and I would be pleased to offer a potluck main
course, vegetable, soft drinks (BYOB) and desert for Saturday Evening
Also if anyone else has a better idea, I would be interested to hear it.

I will be traveleing to the Wayne, New Jersey, Cape May, New Jersey and
Philadelphia, PA areas later this year for re-enactments. Anyone
wishing to visit me at those events are most welcome to do so. If you
wish I will keep you posted. In November I will be traveling to
Northwestern Missouri (Milan area) and would make the same invitation as
above.

I hope this and similar postings are not too far Off-Topic .

Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	Mia Soderquist tuozine@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:45:33 -0400

"M. Papirius Justus" wrote:
> I strongly suspect your lack of response is due to the first criterion:
>
> 1. We ask that applicants have sincere religious feeling for the deity
[...]

That's not what's holding me off. Actually, I do have sincere religious
feeling. It's the other requirements that *sound* very steep. Lots of
people are holding down full-time jobs and/or dealing with busy lives
that make it hard to see how they can fit in the required research and
planning. I believe that I am capable of the position, but I am not
going to cheat the Gods or the people of Nova Roma by applying when I
don't know if I can fulfill the related duties as well as I should. Two
of my five kids are going to live with their father next week, but I am
still homeschooling the remaining school-aged kid... But if I suddenly
discover that I have a lot more time on my hands, I might go ahead and
apply.

<snippage>

>
> We don't expect the milites among us to actually go out and kill people.
> Our political functionaries have no 'real' power in this world. Heck, I
> suspect most of the folks around here don't appear to know Latin to any
> conversational degree. When I go to the chat room, I don't actually get a
> cup of Falernian (heck, I seem to keep missing everyone). I'm also 99%
> positive that none of our pontifices has ever presided over an actual
> sacrifice -- whether as a pontifex or a privatus, which to me (and, indeed,
> to the Romans) would have been one of the signs of 'sincere belief'.

I don't have any problem with sacrifice. It might scare my neighbors
though. <G> It seems to me that those of us who do believe would prefer
the spiritual leadership of a believer over someone who is doing it for
fantasy value. That's all.

--
***
Mia Soderquist (<a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=189075253209082116184218072036129208" >tuozine@--------</a>)
ICQ 19818811 or 5926593
<a href="http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/critters/Page_1x.html" target="_top" >http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/critters/Page_1x.html</a> -TuozzCritters
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/de/siidmak/" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/de/siidmak/</a> -Conlang Page
<a href="http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/Untitled/Page_1x.html" target="_top" >http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/Untitled/Page_1x.html</a> -Gens Numeria

Subject:	Wag the Dog (was: Collegium Pontificium)
From:	Marius Fimbria legion6@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:15:34 -0500 (CDT)

Salve, Tribune Graecus, et salvete omnes...

>I cannot see the purpose of the participation of non-citizens in our
>affairs, even less to dictate our future end.

Two points, Tribune, both of them VERY important--so I do hope you're
paying attention...(and I'm posting this publicly because you've
confused people and so they need to know this too):

1) We have had and will have non-Citizens of various sorts (future
Cives, former Cives, interested outsiders) participating on this List.
We have already debated the idea of restricting the List only to
actual Citizens; that suggestion was shot down in flames a long time
ago in favor of allowing potentially-valuable List-members (such as
Ullerius Venator has turned out to be!) to sample what we're about
before making the decision to apply for Citizenship. Should any
List-member, Citizen or non-, become disruptive, there are effective
ways of dealing with that...and the method need not vary according to
class.

2) At *NO POINT* during the recent debate did Flavia Claudia (or any
other fired, retired, or expired Citizen) actually TAKE PART.

The title of this message refers to a saying that inspired a movie here
in the U.S. The saying is 'That's a bit like the tail wagging the dog,
isn't it?', and it refers to when things that ought to have been
effects instead become causes. The movie was about a U.S. President
who seeks to distract the public's attention from his domestic affairs
by starting a 'war' against a small nation in Eastern Europe. There is
no actual war; the whole thing is just one gigantic media event...

The recent flap over an ex-Citizen's post was like that so-called war:
Worse than a non-issue, it was a *manufactured* issue hand-crafted for
our 'benefit' by a politician out to create a scene. How else does one
explain why something originally posted to a different List
entirely...would be responded to entirely on this one? Merullus had it
straight when he said we don't need to be debating ghosts in the
Forum...the irony of the thing being that there *were* no 'ghosts' here
except for the special-effects job conjured up by our Tribune.

>Think twice before offending. If you have something to say vote or
>offer yourself as a candidate for Tribune in the next elections.

Antonius Gryllus Graecus Tribunus Plebis, I am *deeply* offended by
your use of this List as a staging-ground for your next round of
rabble-rousing. Flavia Claudia is not even subscribed to this List;
her post has never appeared in this Forum, only your own invectives
against it. (I have a copy of that post, BTW, and I *still* can't see
what you're raising such a stink about.)

I *WILL NOT* see this community dragged through the mud like it was
last campaign season. I will ask you in future to please take
responsibility for your effect on other people and on the spirit of
community which is finally again raising its battered head in this
place. I have said I will be vigorous in its defense. Do please think
long and soberly before deciding that you're going to make this job
difficult for me. Better you should keep any personal attacks private
or take them to the Via_Trames.

Yours under the Eagles,
************************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |>[SPQR]<|
mka Märia Villarroel |\=/|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Roman Historical Re-Creationist `\*/, ``}`^~``,,, \ \
and Citizen of Nova Roma ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman... It's hard work, _|_| / _/_| /`(
but SOMEbody's gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'

Subject:	Re: Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	"M. Papirius Justus" papirius@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:26:34 -0400

Salvete,

... and it seems to me that there are plenty of folks (including myself)
for whom it is of historical and educational value; I take offense that you
suggest what I'm interested in is solely of "fantasy" value (nor would I
label it a "sham", as our p.m. would have it). Oh well, it matters not to
me ... I can still educate without a priesthood (and I have in the works
for next year an online recreations of various rites and rituals ... stay
tooned).

mpj


At 12:45 PM 27/08/1999 -0400, you wrote:
I don't have any problem with sacrifice. It might scare my neighbors
though. <G> It seems to me that those of us who do believe would prefer
the spiritual leadership of a believer over someone who is doing it for
fantasy value. That's all.

]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[

Subject:	Re: Wag the Dog (was: Collegium Pontificium)
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:38:48 EDT

and the fires burned on......and on....and on....and on...

Kinda like that damn Energizer Bunny!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:43:25 -0700 (PDT)

--- "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a> wrote:

Salvete!

> Respondeo:
> I strongly suspect your lack of response is due to the first criterion:
> 1. We ask that applicants have sincere religious feeling for the deity
> who's priesthood they wish to undertake. It is necessary that the applicant
> worship that deity in private life in addition to being willing to preside
> over public rituals on behalf of Nova Roma. As our central goal is to
> restore sincere as well as traditional worship of the ancient Gods, we
> cannot grant Priesthood status to Citizens who apply only for reasons of
> historical curiosity or for purposes of secular historical reenactment.

</tactful mode>

*GOOD*! Then that leaves the priesthood open for people who genuinely wish to
practice the Religio! Would you suggest that the Catholic Church ordain
anthropologists who wish to study Catholicism? Should orthodox Jews open the
Kabbalah to those who are studying in their religion classes?

If you want to learn about religion as a *study*, there should be something
separate for that as to not conflict with the Roman Religio. And that should
have nothing to do with being involved in the priesthood unless you wish to
both practice *and* study!

Leave the priesthood to those genuinely involved in the religion as a belief
and a practice. Anything else will degrade what it's worth, and neither party
will get anything out of it.



My $0.02 worth....


Valete et khairete,


Andrea Gladia Kyrinia


<tactful mode>



===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
__________________________________________________
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Subject:	NovaRoma Meeting Dates? and Caesars-AC
From:	"LegionXXIV" LegionXXIV@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:48:11 -0400

VICESIMA - QUARTA
LEGION XXIV - MEDIA - ATLANTIA

* PROVINCIA PENNSYLVANIA *
* MEDIA - ATLANTICA * AMERICIA *

Defending the Frontiers of Ancient Rome
in the Mid - Atlantic Province
of North America

August 27, 1999
Year of Rome 2752

Avete et Salutatio... Commilito Audens
Romani of NovaRoma

Hello and Greetings from Gallio Velius Marsallas,
Praefectus, Legio XXIV-Media-Atlantia;
Tribune Militaris - NovaRoma - Gens Velia
aka George W. Metz
13 Post Run Newtown Square, PA 19073-3014
<a h--------"/post/nova--------?p--------ctID=034056178009193116001195151189114012071048139" >legionXXIV@--------</a> 610-353-4982
<a href="http://www.legionXXIV.org" target="_top" >http://www.legionXXIV.org</a>

The discussion on a proposed regional meeting of NovaRoma seems
to have died down.

A date in February would probably be best, allowing for more lead
time to set things up. January could work as well.

I strongly favor Caesars Atlantic City as the site and being reasonably
close, distance wise <1.5 hours driving time, I am willing to contact
them and act as liaison and organizer. I have run conclaves, banquets
and other gatherings in the past and should be able to handle this one.

We will get the most cooperation from Caesars if we contract for some
sleeping rooms, meeting room, meals and other facilities.
A minimum of ten sleeping rooms are required for group consideration.
I have inquired and am awaiting their reply on costs, etc
Stay Tuned - Watch this Space

It will not be cheap; but a good location and experience seldom is.
Its an old saying, but one that will most always be true. . .

You get what you pay for!

What we really need to determine is how much most of us are
willing to spend on this endeavor. $100 to $200 per person
is probably a realistic cost expectation.

Hoping a meaningful gathering can be arranged,

I remain as always,

Tuus in Sodalicio Respublica Romanae
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Republic

Gallio / George


O====<|| S P Q R ||>====O
L E G I O
X X I V
M A

ooooooooooooooo
O====|<|| S P Q R ||>|====O
|O ================O|
|| | | ||
|| | L E G | ||
|| | X X I V | ||
|| | M A | ||
|| | | ||
|| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||
\/ | | \/
| |
| |

Subject:	Re: Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	Mia Soderquist tuozine@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:54:15 -0400

"M. Papirius Justus" wrote:
>
> From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
>
> Salvete,
>
> ... and it seems to me that there are plenty of folks (including myself)
> for whom it is of historical and educational value; I take offense that you
> suggest what I'm interested in is solely of "fantasy" value (nor would I
> label it a "sham", as our p.m. would have it). Oh well, it matters not to
> me ... I can still educate without a priesthood (and I have in the works
> for next year an online recreations of various rites and rituals ... stay
> tooned).
>
> mpj
>

It wasn't intended to offend. There is plenty of educating that can be
done by anyone with the expertise, but some of us joined Nova Roma
mainly for the Religio, and if we see this as our real-world, real-life
spiritual center, it seems fair that we might ask that our spiritual
leaders at least share our belief.

I really didn't want to offend. I feel really bad. I don't want to hurt
or fight with anybody. It's just this one little topic that I had a
thought on, and it was not directed at you, personally.


--
***
Mia Soderquist (<a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=189075253209082116184218072036129208" >tuozine@--------</a>)
ICQ 19818811 or 5926593
<a href="http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/critters/Page_1x.html" target="_top" >http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/critters/Page_1x.html</a> -TuozzCritters
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/de/siidmak/" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/de/siidmak/</a> -Conlang Page
<a href="http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/Untitled/Page_1x.html" target="_top" >http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/Untitled/Page_1x.html</a> -Gens Numeria

Subject:	Re: Religio "reenacting"
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:40:51 EDT

In a message dated 8/27/99 10:32:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a> wr--------:

<< ... and it seems to me that there are plenty of folks (including myself)
for whom it is of historical and educational value; I take offense that you
suggest what I'm interested in is solely of "fantasy" value (nor would I
label it a "sham", as our p.m. would have it).

Cassius:
I had no wish to cause you personal offence Papirius. It is fully
understandable that people can have an interest in the historical bacground
and practices of the Religio Romana without actually believing in the Gods.
It IS an interesting subject even at that level! However, I hope you can
appreciate the dilemma brought up by Mia Soderquist in her posting on this
thread. There are many people in Nova Roma who DO have religious piety for
the Gods, and consider the Religio to be their own living spiritual practice.
They have a right to a priesthood who shares their belief.

It would be an extreme strain to place non-religious people in positions of
official priesthood no matter *how* knowledgable they might be. The function
of a priest is to be an intermediary between the worshippers and a deity...
and a person doing it only for the historic value could not possibly be
making that connection in any sort of true spiritual sense. As a religious
person I could not tolerate being led in worship by a priest who openly
denied the Religio on a personal basis, and was merely acting out the form of
ritual because it's "interesting". It is probable that most of the other
religious folks here feel the same way.


Papirius:
>Oh well, it matters not to
me ... I can still educate without a priesthood (and I have in the works
for next year an online recreations of various rites and rituals ... stay
tooned).

Cassius:
Absolutely! You are most welcome to be involved in the scholarly study of the
Religio, and from what I've seen of most of your posts, I'm sure you have
much to
contribute that would be worthwhile. Many folks in NR are involved in study
of subjects in such a manner. Marcus Audens has done absolute wonders in his
study of Roman engineering for instance, yet I doubt he's going to be
building any full-size Roman bridges over rivers there in Connecticut... ;)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

Subject:	Lucius Sergius Australicus
From:	Exitil@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:54:06 EDT

Who is Lucius Sergius Australicus? Email address?

Subject:	Re: Re: Religio "reenacting"
From:	Dexippus@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:59:22 EDT

In a message dated 8/27/99 3:41:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------; writes:

<< As a religious
person I could not tolerate being led in worship by a priest who openly
denied the Religio on a personal basis, and was merely acting out the form
of
ritual because it's "interesting". It is probable that most of the other
religious folks here feel the same way. >>

Here Here! I second that!!!!!

<<Marcus Audens has done absolute wonders in his
study of Roman engineering for instance, yet I doubt he's going to be
building any full-size Roman bridges over rivers there in Connecticut... ;)>>

And why not? This is exactly the kind of short-sightedness that is hindering
us from conquering the world! LOL...BUILD THAT DAMN BRIDGE ALREADY AUDENS!

TODAY CONNECTICUT!....TOMORROW....THE WORLD!

--Dexippus

<yes...Dexie is losing it! This summer's heat is getting to poor ol' Dexie
who prefers the fall and winter seasons. Not to mention that Dexie has just
learned of a world-wide conspiracy aimed at placing power in the hands of
talking chihuauas ("Yo Quiero Taco-Bell" was simply the first phase!). Soon
we will all be mentally vulnerable as the Chihuauas poison our water supply!
It's already happening...people are doing weird things -- like voting for
politicians who want to re-unite church and state here in the U.S., parents
boycotting Snapple for advertising on the Howard Stern Show, and Christmas
Specialty Stores opening up NOW in malls in NJ! What's next? Janet Reno
getting a date? Finding out that Princess Diana never died -- that it was
really Charles in Drag? DON'T TRUST ANYONE! THE CHIHUAUAS ARE IN CONTROL!>

Subject:	Re: Re-Enactment
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:08:51 EDT

In a message dated 8/27/99 7:54:21 AM, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------es:

<< From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------br>
Salvete, Cives;

I will be gone for this weekend at a re-enactment just outside of
Easton,Mass. at a place called Borderlands State Park. I will be on
the Federal Staff Line. >>

Subject:	Re: Re-Enactment (apology)
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:22:48 EDT

Salvete!

I am sorry for the waste of bandwidth. I'm in a studio, using a strange MAC
and I sent Audens annoucement when I was only trying to read it.
Valete
Q. Fabius

Subject:	Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:52:58 -0400

Salvete M Papiri et alii

Only the Pontifex Maximus can answer your post authoritatively. But of
course I'll answer it unauthoritatively :). And I'll preface this message
by saying that I value your commentary on Roman law and acknowledge your
authority in matters of Roman history. I hope that you find Nova Roma
rewarding in some way and continue to contribute to the best of your
abilities, inclinations and interests.



>From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
>
>
>I strongly suspect your lack of response is due to the first criterion:
>
>1. We ask that applicants have sincere religious feeling for the deity
>who's priesthood they wish to undertake
-deletion-
>
>I also note the following line in the preamble to our new constitution (and
>the old one):
>
-deletion-

These quotes, from the pontifex qualifications statement and the
constitution, are important and say a lot about what Nova Roma is and seeks
to be.

>
>Quaeritur:
>
>Is it 'practical and acceptable' in this age to believe that someone
>applying, e.g., to the position of pontiff, would have sincere religious
>feeling for 'the deity' (which deity is it that a pontifex is devoted to?

That's a good question. But here's another: why, oh why, would anyone
apply to such a position otherwise?

>what deity is an augur devoted to). Indeed, was it 'practical and
>acceptable' in ancient Rome (as far as I'm aware, e.g., for most of the
>period of the Republic, the positions of pontiff and augur were as much
>matters of politics as religion (if not more))? I can't help but be
>reminded of Cicero's famous quip about wondering how two augures could pass
>each other on the street without laughing.

Well, nothing against M Tullius, but perhaps pietas was weak in him? I
can't say, but I do know that his opinion of augury does not preclude
someone else's believing in it.

And here's something else -- I'm
>sure there are plenty of learned folks on this list who do know quite a bit
>about ancient religion who also happen to be Christian or Muslim (and whose
>employment might actually depend on genuine sincere belief in the message
>of those religions)

Hmmm...I'm not sure what you mean here. Christian and Muslim clergy?

and who could be quite effective at performing rituals
>and instructing others in the same; but such knowledge will go to waste
>with the 'sincere' requirement. Is that 'practical'?

Well, I think that what we have here is a philosophical collision. If one
believes that the Roman rituals have value for their own sake (which you
seem be believe, based on this message), then there is utility in research
and re-enacting those rituals, without any belief in the deities to whom the
rituals are dedicated. By the way, if you do mean Christian clergy when you
refer above the these qualified but wasted applicants, I can only say that
the proposition of Christian clergy performing rituals honoring other gods,
strikes me as pretty strong hypocrisy. And if the clergy don't believe
strongly enough in Yahweh or Allah, as the case may be, to feel any
hesitation about conducting a ritual honoring another deity, their calling
themselves ministers, priests, imams et cetera is extreme hypocrisy in and
of itself! That is not to say anything against Christians or Moslims, or
other monotheists who worship an exclusive god, participating in Nova Roma
as citizens, senators, or even magistrates. But to lead rituals in Religio
Romana? Nah. And if leading rituals is required of a particular
magistracy, I do not understand how any sincere monotheist would be able to
run for that magistracy.

If one believes that Roman rituals have utility chiefly for honoring the
Roman Gods and Godesses, then sincerity is imperative, is it not? Without
sincerity, the ritual is an insult to the deity at whom it is directed, and
certainly to any sincere worshipper who witnesses the ritual.

You know, you're right. It is the requirement of sincerity that probably
filters out the most would-be-applicants. But that's fine by me.


>
>We don't expect the milites among us to actually go out and kill people.

What milites? We don't have an army. We have a sodalitas militaria
(name/spelling may be off, sorry); we sponsor, or have talked about
sponsoring, re-enactors; but we have no army. We don't need one, M Papiri.
Rome used her armies to expand, defend the City, Italia, the Empire...we
have no territories to defend, for better or worse.

>Our political functionaries have no 'real' power in this world.

They only have power in Nova Roma. Where else do they need power?

Heck, I
>suspect most of the folks around here don't appear to know Latin to any
>conversational degree.

Yes, you're right. I bet that some people are picking up more and more
words, though. I believe that Fimbria's Latin probably approaches
"conversational". There has been (is again?) a citizen known as Rusticus,
whose Latin is very good; Claudia Lucentia Aprica is a Latin scholar; (her
gensmate?) Nigellus, the winner of the Ludi Apollinares this year, composed
a lovely poem in Latin for that occasion; our tribunus plebis communicates
well in Latin, as does Vado, and I do ok myself. I am sure that I missed
some people there too.

When I go to the chat room, I don't actually get a
>cup of Falernian (heck, I seem to keep missing everyone).

Yes, I tend to miss everyone in there too (but I do run into Fimbria in
there sometimes :)). I think that the virtual Falernian is just like a prop
to help people get in the mood to mingle cheerily. I think that it does
have some of that effect; you see, you see a picture of a cup of Falernian
on the screen, read someone's exclamation like "here you go! drink up!"
and, on some level, you'll no doubt think some thoughts associated with
enjoying a real beverage in real company. Is virtual wine as good as real
wine? No, but there is no other way to have cives from around the world get
together in a taverna with any frequency. Actually, it's hard enough to get
people together in the virtual one, given all the time zones, people's
schedules et cetera...

I'm also 99%
>positive that none of our pontifices has ever presided over an actual
>sacrifice -- whether as a pontifex or a privatus, which to me (and, indeed,
>to the Romans) would have been one of the signs of 'sincere belief'.

I don't know. I'm 99% sure that our pontifices have presided over their
own, private sacrifices of incense, spelt cakes or other such offering. I
don't doubt that one or two of them have participated in public rituals as
well. I'm primarily looking to the future, though.

The main thing, as far as I'm concerned, is this: Nova Roma has stated
goals, as you quoted from the constitution. Central in those goals is the
re-building of Religio Romana, in both public and private form. For real.
One who cannot respect that goal, and cannot respect Religio Romana and its
practitioners, will never be happy here and will never be constructive
within Nova Roma. This micronation was founded by and for people who
believe in the Gods and want to revive their worship. Others are welcome if
those others share a passion for Rome and respect the Religio Romana.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
>
>mpj
>]|[ M. Papirius Justus ]|[ <a href="http://web.idirect.com/~atrium" target="_top" >http://web.idirect.com/~atrium</a> ]|[
>

Subject:	Re: Re: Religio "reenacting"
From:	Kyrene Ariadne kyreneariadne@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:24:48 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete!


<Hellenic mode>

--- <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:
> And why not? This is exactly the kind of short-sightedness that is hindering
> us from conquering the world! LOL...BUILD THAT DAMN BRIDGE ALREADY AUDENS!
> TODAY CONNECTICUT!....TOMORROW....THE WORLD!

*grabs her thyrsos and runs off with Dex*

Yes, let's all lose it... I'm running off into the woods. Pronto.

Those who are pure Romans are free to join me, provided that they don't mind a
little Bacchus. *hiccup* Bakkhos. *hiccup* Dionysos.



Khairete et valete,


Andrea Gladia Kyrinia


</Hellenic mode>



===
-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-
__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at <a href="http://auctions.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://auctions.yahoo.com</a>

Subject:	A needed division
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:34:55 -0500 (CDT)

I believe a good many people so far have left Nova Roma because
of the political bickerings mixed into the basic social and religious
conversations/information and the personal disputes which have arisen
from Nova Roma politics.

I think it's about time we think of starting a new list ---- an
official Nova Roma list dedicated only to the religious and social
interaction aspects of our society. We can leave this list for
everything political-- election campaigns, reform ideas, political
disputes, etc.etc. To be frank, there are some people here that have no
interest in the political process whatsoever just as there are many
people who don't vote in public elections in their country of origin.
There are also people here on the other hand that love Nova Roma
politics and are here solely because of this. Then there are those like
me who worship the Gods and Goddesses and yet still enjoy the politics
of this organization, along with some of the other kinds of information.

Not everyone likes to see politics and religion mixed on a daily
basis. The nature of politics in and of itself is conflictory and this
as everyone can see has led to personal attacks which have resulted in
some people being more offended than others. Basically without saying
anymore because it should be obvious, we need a place just for political
talk here or elsewhere and hopefully before full swing election season.
This may prevent some more pretty decent people from growing disgusted
with the bickering in Nova Roma and forever leaving.

I think it would be great too if we not only had occassional
updates from the pontiffs and augurs, etc. but maybe some posts on
rituals, hymns, religious practices around the republic and empire, etc.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Re: A needed division
From:	Daniel Dreesbach dreesbach@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:43:58 -0700 (PDT)

I agree

--- Dean Troy <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> --------e:
> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)
>
>
> I believe a good many people so far have
> left Nova Roma because
> of the political bickerings mixed into the basic
> social and religious
> conversations/information and the personal disputes
> which have arisen
> from Nova Roma politics.
>
> I think it's about time we think of starting a
> new list ---- an
> official Nova Roma list dedicated only to the
> religious and social
> interaction aspects of our society. We can leave
> this list for
> everything political-- election campaigns, reform
> ideas, political
> disputes, etc.etc. To be frank, there are some
> people here that have no
> interest in the political process whatsoever just as
> there are many
> people who don't vote in public elections in their
> country of origin.
> There are also people here on the other hand that
> love Nova Roma
> politics and are here solely because of this. Then
> there are those like
> me who worship the Gods and Goddesses and yet still
> enjoy the politics
> of this organization, along with some of the other
> kinds of information.
>
> Not everyone likes to see politics and
> religion mixed on a daily
> basis. The nature of politics in and of itself is
> conflictory and this
> as everyone can see has led to personal attacks
> which have resulted in
> some people being more offended than others.
> Basically without saying
> anymore because it should be obvious, we need a
> place just for political
> talk here or elsewhere and hopefully before full
> swing election season.
> This may prevent some more pretty decent people from
> growing disgusted
> with the bickering in Nova Roma and forever leaving.
>
> I think it would be great too if we not only
> had occassional
> updates from the pontiffs and augurs, etc. but maybe
> some posts on
> rituals, hymns, religious practices around the
> republic and empire, etc.
>
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> ATTENTION ONElist MEMBERS: Get your ONElist news!
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Subject:	Re: A needed division
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:44:51 -0700

Salvete Omnes....

Isn't the Religio list a platform for that type of discussion? Is there a
way it can be made Officially Nova Roman, if it isn't already? Any
thoughts?

L. Cornelius Sulla
*just a regular civie again...hehehe*
----- Original Message -----
From: Dean Troy <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 5:34 PM
Subject: [novaroma] A needed division


> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)
>
>
> I believe a good many people so far have left Nova Roma because
> of the political bickerings mixed into the basic social and religious
> conversations/information and the personal disputes which have arisen
> from Nova Roma politics.
>
> I think it's about time we think of starting a new list ---- an
> official Nova Roma list dedicated only to the religious and social
> interaction aspects of our society. We can leave this list for
> everything political-- election campaigns, reform ideas, political
> disputes, etc.etc. To be frank, there are some people here that have no
> interest in the political process whatsoever just as there are many
> people who don't vote in public elections in their country of origin.
> There are also people here on the other hand that love Nova Roma
> politics and are here solely because of this. Then there are those like
> me who worship the Gods and Goddesses and yet still enjoy the politics
> of this organization, along with some of the other kinds of information.
>
> Not everyone likes to see politics and religion mixed on a daily
> basis. The nature of politics in and of itself is conflictory and this
> as everyone can see has led to personal attacks which have resulted in
> some people being more offended than others. Basically without saying
> anymore because it should be obvious, we need a place just for political
> talk here or elsewhere and hopefully before full swing election season.
> This may prevent some more pretty decent people from growing disgusted
> with the bickering in Nova Roma and forever leaving.
>
> I think it would be great too if we not only had occassional
> updates from the pontiffs and augurs, etc. but maybe some posts on
> rituals, hymns, religious practices around the republic and empire, etc.
>
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ATTENTION ONElist MEMBERS: Get your ONElist news!
> Join our MEMBER NEWSLETTER here:
> <a href=" <a href="http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/newsletter3" target="_top" >http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/newsletter3</a> ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Subject:	Re: A needed division
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:50:45 -0500 (CDT)

I'm ot sure but I believe Pythia started and has control over the
Religio list. I think what we need most is just a list totally
non-political which can be used by all Nova Romans-- not specifically
about the Religio but encompassing it. The Nova Roma Social list?

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:04:22 -0400

Salve,

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
>
> Vedius' new constitution may prove more workable than his old one, and it
> is certainly laudable that he finally completed the allocation of
> citizens to tribes and centuries (thanks in no small measure to Lucius
> Equitius Cinncinatus).

Actually, it was in no measure "thanks" to Cincinnatus. He had absolutely
zero to do with the allocation of citizens to the tribes and centuries. He
may very well have done some work in this area, but if he did, he decided
not to share it with anyone in the government, leaving us to have to do it
all from scratch. Thanks for nothing...

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Censor

Subject:	Re: A needed division
From:	Asseri@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:05:24 EDT

In a message dated 8/27/99 7:38:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> --------es:

<< I think it's about time we think of starting a new list ---- an
official Nova Roma list dedicated only to the religious and social
interaction aspects of our society. >>
yes a very good idea. I think we could use such a list. I for one often
wonder about the value of this list when we seem so ready to "jump" on each
others posts. Please consider this idea seriously I beg those that are in
charge of such things.
P. Anncinna Olivia

Subject:	Re: A needed division
From:	Daniel Dreesbach dreesbach@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:13:46 -0700 (PDT)

How about a list with only citizens

--- <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=100059066056127132015098190036129" >Asseri@--------</--------; wrote:
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=100059066056127132015098190036129" >Asseri@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 8/27/99 7:38:21 PM US Eastern
> Standard Time,
> <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> --------es:
>
> << I think it's about time we think of starting a
> new list ---- an
> official Nova Roma list dedicated only to the
> religious and social
> interaction aspects of our society. >>
> yes a very good idea. I think we could use such a
> list. I for one often
> wonder about the value of this list when we seem so
> ready to "jump" on each
> others posts. Please consider this idea seriously I
> beg those that are in
> charge of such things.
> P. Anncinna Olivia
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> ATTN ONELIST USERS: stay current on the latest
> activities,
> programs, & features at ONElist by joining our
> member newsletter at
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Subject:	Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	Daniel Dreesbach dreesbach@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:15:45 -0700 (PDT)

How do we know which tribe we are with

--- Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> wrote:
> From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus"
> <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> >
> Salve,
>
> > From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
> >
> > Vedius' new constitution may prove more workable
> than his old one, and it
> > is certainly laudable that he finally completed
> the allocation of
> > citizens to tribes and centuries (thanks in no
> small measure to Lucius
> > Equitius Cinncinatus).
>
> Actually, it was in no measure "thanks" to
> Cincinnatus. He had absolutely
> zero to do with the allocation of citizens to the
> tribes and centuries. He
> may very well have done some work in this area, but
> if he did, he decided
> not to share it with anyone in the government,
> leaving us to have to do it
> all from scratch. Thanks for nothing...
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Censor
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> ONElist: your connection to online communities.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

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Subject:	Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:17:47 -0700

Salve you need to go to the Album Saturnium (sp) and look up Censorial
issues..and look up the list of Civies.....(something very close to that)

L. Cornelius Sulla

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Dreesbach <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114212192056099202169102046248100208071048" >dreesbach@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Collegium Pontificum


> From: Daniel Dreesbach <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114212192056099202169102046248100208071048" >dreesbach@--------</a>
>
> How do we know which tribe we are with
>
> --- Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> wrote: > > From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus"
> > <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> > >
> > Salve,
> >
> > > From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
> > >
> > > Vedius' new constitution may prove more workable
> > than his old one, and it
> > > is certainly laudable that he finally completed
> > the allocation of
> > > citizens to tribes and centuries (thanks in no
> > small measure to Lucius
> > > Equitius Cinncinatus).
> >
> > Actually, it was in no measure "thanks" to
> > Cincinnatus. He had absolutely
> > zero to do with the allocation of citizens to the
> > tribes and centuries. He
> > may very well have done some work in this area, but
> > if he did, he decided
> > not to share it with anyone in the government,
> > leaving us to have to do it
> > all from scratch. Thanks for nothing...
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> > Censor
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> > ----------------------------
> >
> > ONElist: your connection to online communities.
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at <a href="http://auctions.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://auctions.yahoo.com</a>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Congratulations to Susan Davis!
> ONElist's final FRIENDS&FAMILY WINNER!
> Stay tuned for exciting new contests, sweepstakes & more at ONElist!
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Subject:	Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	Mia Soderquist tuozine@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:55:31 -0400

Daniel Dreesbach wrote:
>
> From: Daniel Dreesbach <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114212192056099202169102046248100208071048" >dreesbach@--------</a>
>
> How do we know which tribe we are with

<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/album_civium.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/album_civium.html</a>
--
***
Mia Soderquist (<a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=189075253209082116184218072036129208" >tuozine@--------</a>)
ICQ 19818811 or 5926593
<a href="http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/critters/Page_1x.html" target="_top" >http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/critters/Page_1x.html</a> -TuozzCritters
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/de/siidmak/" target="_top" >http://www.angelfire.com/de/siidmak/</a> -Conlang Page
<a href="http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/Untitled/Page_1x.html" target="_top" >http://home.mindspring.com/~tuozine/Untitled/Page_1x.html</a> -Gens Numeria

Subject:	Re: Collegium Pontificum
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:54:03 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, Daniel Dreesbach wrote:

> From: Daniel Dreesbach <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114212192056099202169102046248100208071048" >dreesbach@--------</a>
>
> How do we know which tribe we are with


Go to the Aerarium Saturni on the website and click on Album Civium. Then,
look under your name and look at the line next to your name to see your
tribe and century.

You should have also recently received this information in an email
with your voter code.


Vale,


Decius Iunius Palladius,
Censor



>
> --- Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> wrote: > > From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus"
> > <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> > >
> > Salve,
> >
> > > From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
> > >
> > > Vedius' new constitution may prove more workable
> > than his old one, and it
> > > is certainly laudable that he finally completed
> > the allocation of
> > > citizens to tribes and centuries (thanks in no
> > small measure to Lucius
> > > Equitius Cinncinatus).
> >
> > Actually, it was in no measure "thanks" to
> > Cincinnatus. He had absolutely
> > zero to do with the allocation of citizens to the
> > tribes and centuries. He
> > may very well have done some work in this area, but
> > if he did, he decided
> > not to share it with anyone in the government,
> > leaving us to have to do it
> > all from scratch. Thanks for nothing...
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> > Censor
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> > ----------------------------
> >
> > ONElist: your connection to online communities.
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at <a href="http://auctions.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://auctions.yahoo.com</a>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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> ONElist’s final FRIENDS&FAMILY WINNER!
> Stay tuned for exciting new contests, sweepstakes & more at ONElist!
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Subject:	Re: A needed division
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:23:18 -0400

Salvete Caie Druse et alii

How about we all respect and tolerate each other, including our disparate
interests and many faults?

If we don't make some attempt to do that, they'll never be enough lists.
Each of us will need his/her own list, to sit and engage in soliloquy,
because after all we are all very different.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


:From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)
:
:
: I believe a good many people so far have left Nova Roma because
:of the political bickerings mixed into the basic social and religious
:conversations/information and the personal disputes which have arisen
:from Nova Roma politics.
:
: I think it's about time we think of starting a new list ---- an

Subject:	Re: re: a needed division
From:
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:06:00 -0700

Just wanted to let everyone know those lists were not created....as far as I
can remember by a Nova Roman Citizen. They were created by Tamale....an
occasional poster who was well....ousted from the list by P.Cassia when she
was list moderator. So they arent valid lists, by NR. :)

> Novaroma_Religion
> Novaroma_Government
> Novaroma_History
> Novaroma_Military
> Novaroma_Legions
> Novaroma_Literature
>

L. Cornelius Sulla

Subject:	Re: re: a needed division
From:
Date:	Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:51:57 -0700

Salvete Omnes....

Well personally I agree with Q.Fabius Maximus's speech....However, we do
have some unofficial lists available to us! However, I feel that if Civies
want to create lists...thats fine...but people who aren't Civies
well....personally I have issues against it...since it is using the Nova
Roma name....call me what you will...but like the website, I believe all
lists should be at least moderated if not created by a Nova Roma citizen.

L. Cornelius Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] re: a needed division


> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=023056234037193209048149203140129208071" >BenBorgo@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 8/27/99 11:06:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------/font>
>
> Salve,
>
> Well, nobody told me _that_! Thanks for clarifying, Sulla:)....Any reason
why
> we can't use them anyway? Afterall they are there, w/NR citizens
subscribed...
> They may not be official yet...but perhaps they can get there if we use
them.
>
> Not sure how the 'Sanctioned List Lex' of Nova Roma goes, just trying to
> clear the air as much as possible...Sulla, better ideas?
>
>
Respectfully,
> Caesar
>
> << Just wanted to let everyone know those lists were not created....as far
as
> I
> can remember by a Nova Roman Citizen. They were created by Tamale....an
> occasional poster who was well....ousted from the list by P.Cassia when
she
> was list moderator. So they arent valid lists, by NR. :)
>
> > Novaroma_Religion
> > Novaroma_Government
> > Novaroma_History
> > Novaroma_Military
> > Novaroma_Legions
> > Novaroma_Literature >>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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