| Subject: |
Re: Cincinnatus and the Tribes |
| From: |
Cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:27:33 EDT |
|
Salvete,
I still invite Citizens to delete this thread... unless they want to see a
childish "Did too!" "Did not!" debate. For those who'll ask, why am I
continuing to participate? Simply because if stuff along these lines is going
to be continually posted then both views should be present.
In a m--------g--------t--------/30/99 1:39:21 PM East--------Daylight Tim--------lt;a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
writes:
Cincinnatus:
That's right Germanicus owns the site now and he has appointed himself
Censor and made Censor the Supreme magistrate (though the citizens haven't
voted any of this). Like I said, we're just visitors here.
Cassius:
Germanicus didn't appoint himself Censor. I couldn't stand the task a moment
longer and he was the only person I felt capable of carrying out the job
properly. Even though you tried to bargain for the position by saying you'd
accept it in place of your vanished Consulship!
Speaking of being just a visitor, are you going to be accepting your
Citizenship back, or what? Either:
A. You are a Citizen again, or...
B. You don't feel you're a Citizen, and you're just hanging around to cause
continual crisis. Which is it??
> Cassius, reposting from L. Sergius Aug.:
> "The only new _facts_ you would add are that Lucius Equitius also had
> offered to form the tribes & centuries, and that he should be added to
> the list of those who failed at this task. That seems irrefutable."
Cincinnatus:
> Yes, this is true. I have them mostly formed but I was not getting citizens
information until the week before Roman days. Then it was determind that you
and Palladius would do them so I stopped working on it and I have not gotten
any more information.
Cassius:
I think you can pretty much give up on your mostly formed tribes. The work is
done and up on the website. I seriously doubt you're going to be getting any
more information to continue redundant efforts.
>Cassius:
> 1. Lucius Equetius Cincinnatus was informed by the Censors in January of
this
> Cincinnatus:
> The Censores never asked the Senate to do the Tribes. Show the transcript.
Cassius:
Since you know very well that *nobody* has any of the old transcripts, feel
free to support your argument by continuing to call for them every time you
post!
> Cassius:
> You were all upset about the Tribes. As Censor I came to you and said I
> couldn't do them in a timely manner, and that if you wanted them done you
> should bring it to the Senate or form a Committee to do them. You said
you'd
> do them yourself. I suppose I should have instantly thought you were lying,
>and gone past you and directly to the Senate anyway?
Cincinnatus:
No, you should have just forwarded the information to me but you never did.
Just why not? IF you were Censor and part of your reponsibility was
maintaining the citizens list and you didn't have time or know how to do it,
why didn't you just send me the list yourself??
Cassius:
I'm actually glad I didn't forward any more information to you than I did,
since you've refused to turn anything sent to you over to Palladius and
Germanicus in an attempt to sabotage their efforts to set things straight.
As far as list problems, every time we correspond I have to explain:
1. Two months worth of list entries were lost when Flavia Iucunda had an
accident trying to store data to the list. Something like fifty people were
lost, and that data had to be recovered and those people contacted.
2. The online Citizen application went down in march, making it impossible
for over three weeks to process Citizens. Between that and the above, trying
to maintain the list was no easy task.
>Cassius:
>2. Lucius Equetius Cincinnatus instead took on the job himself.
> Cincinnatus:
> I said I would do it BUT I GOT NO INFORMATION. Cassius never sent me a
single new citizen entry Until the week before Roman Days.
Cassius:
You had what I had. There was nothing more to send you. There WERE no new
Citizen entries until the two months of lost data were reconstructed, and the
online form was fixed to bring in new applications.
> Cassius:
> What you got was a copy of the Citizen's list that only had people up to
> December. The problem with the list involving data being lost by Flavia
> Iucunda meant that you couldn't get the January and February new Citizens.
> Cincinnatus:
> Like I said I didn't get a list until April that was 4 months out of date.
So finally you're admitting this at least.
Cassius:
I'll happily admit you got an old list! Trouble was, it was forwarded to you
in late January by Flavia Claudia, not in April.
> Cassius:
>3. Due to some of the same reasons why the Censors were having a problem,
>Lucius Equetius Cincinnatus was unable to form the Tribes and Centuries
>*either*.
Cincinnatus:
> Like I said before I never got a list until APRIL and that list was at
least 4 (FOUR) Months out of date.
Cassius:
Wheee! This is fun! For the twentieth time now, you received a list long
before APRIL came along. (Hey, let's debate this some more! Go ahead... tell
me again how you didn't receive anything at all until April. Please?) :)
> Cassius:
> And as I said before, Flavia Claudia forwarded you an old (through
December)
>copy of the list back in February. We're not going to solve anything here.
Cincinnatus:
> No No No. She sent me a list in April that was 4 months old. What we're
solving >here is that I'm tell the truth and you were jerking me around for
months.
Cassius:
ROTFL!!!!
Why on earth would I hold back info when I was hoping you *would* get the
tribes done? I had no clue how to do them, and I was being publicly crucified
for not having them done. To say I was trying to prolong that situation by
making sure I wouldn't get the assistance I asked for is insane.
>Cassius:
>4. Lucius Equetius Cincinnatus then sat on the situation for four whole
>months, doing nothing. He did not do the Tribes and Centuries as he
promised.
L Equitius: IF this were true WHY didn't you speak up about it??
Cassius:
Because I thought you were a friend, and I was trying really, really hard not
to hurt you publically. Little did I know you were busy working on my
impeachment at the time. If I had, you better believe I'd have been
documenting transcripts and everything else.
>Cassius:
> I finally DID speak up about it, and brought the issue to the Senate in the
>11th hour once it was brutally plain that you couldn't do the job either.
Cincinnatus:
Because you weren't sending me any of the citizens' data, at least until the
week before Roman Days in June. What was 'brutally plain' was that you
weren't going to let me get it done either. Just when I was all but done you
and Palladius step up and say you'll do it, then it still doesn't get done
until you give all the information and the Website to Germanicus.
Cassius:
Sure, Cincinnatus. I loved being torn to shreds publicly so much that I
wasn't going to let you do the work that would save my butt. Sheesh.
> Cassius:
>Nor did he at any time turn the situation over to the Senate...
> Cincinnatus:
> Firstly, I wasn't Censor, so I couldn't turn it over to the Senate or
some
> committee.
> Cassius:
> No, you were Senior Consul, with the power to bring up the issue to vote in
> the Senate, and to appoint a Committee to work on the issue. That's why I
>went to you.
Cincinnatus:
Nope I didn't have the power to do that, the Censores are to do those things.
I was going to form the Tribes and submit them for your and Palladius'
aproval, as Censores, but I was getting no infomation from you to work on
them.
Cassius:
So the Senior Consul had no power to bring a Situation up for Senate debate,
nor the power to assign a Committee to help work on the Tribes... but *was*
powerful enough to organize an Impeachment? Very convenient. Funny how your
Consular power seemed to only cover a negative and divisive approach.
Cincinnatus:
>I was not in possession of a current list nor was I receiving ANYTHING in
>the way of updates from the Censores until the WEEK before Roman Days!
> Cassius:
>You had what was available... the old list of Citizens through December.
> Nobody had anything newer.
Cincinnatus:
> You had new citizens coming every day, at least that was what you were
telling me. And the Website is claiming many more citizens than I had
listings for. That is why I was not going to come out with the Tribes. We are
claiming ~285 citizens and I form tribes consisting of ~215?? Right.
Cassius:
We certainly DID have new Citizens coming in every day. We've had that going
on since the day of founding. However, since there had been two months of
data lost, and the online form hadn't been letting people in for weeks, there
was plenty to do to get the list into shape were info COULD be forwarded on.
What was needed was a tribe SYSTEM. Manipulating citizens into tribes was the
least part of the work. You could have set up a system for the tribes with
*no* list of Citizens. You refused to do that. I couldn't do it, since I
didn't know anything about the tribes, and didn't have the spare time to
learn all about them.
>Cassius:
> 5. The Censors, after working some months to correct the basic
difficulties
>to forming the Tribes and Centuries,
Cincinnatus:
ONCE Again I did not have a list to work with. Cassius, you were telling me
that Nova Roma was getting new citizens all the time. How many time did you
tell me that you had a backlog of application to be processed?? At least
half
a dozen or more.
Cassius:
So why would this have prevented me from forwarding an old, outdated list to
you that had at least MOST of the Citizens? From what was forwarded to you in
January a start on getting the Tribes organized could have been made. It was
all there was to send.
> Cassius:
>We had more than one Citizens' list problem going. Not only had two months
of
> fully processed Citizens been lost, but the online application form went
down
> in March. Now we were trying to re-create info AND deal with complaints
from
> Citizens' who weren't able to get through and thought they were simply
being
> ignored. Darned right we had a backlog... but it wasn't due to lack of
effort
>or time spent on Nova Roma business.
Cincinnatus:
When the online application went down prospective citizens can send
applications be 'snail mail'. RTFQ/N (read the full question/note) I still
wasn't getting the information forwarded to me I needed to do the job
whatever the reason.
Cassius:
Unfortunately, since we were having "webmaster" problems at the same time,
nobody had turned off the online form. This meant that people THOUGHT they
were using it and sending in applications, even though they weren't getting
through. They would send an application, hear nothing back, and then start
sending in Emails of complaint which had to be handled one by one.
Cincinnatus:
No one was impeached! Just when did this happen? Once again there are
assertions being made that are pure fantasy, Like I was 'subverting' the
constitution. Where is the proof.
Cassius:
You're right... I wasn't "officially" impeached. Since the Senate wasn't
going to sit around and let you remove your Co-Consul and both Censors from
office without it's consent by forming an underground "Committee" to force
the issue by illegal means, the Dictatorship was put in place to deal with
the issue. And it DID deal with the issue. We have Tribes and Centuries. We
have a Constitution that isn't full of holes. We have laws. Far better than
the alternative... a long protracted Civil War.
>Cassius:
> 6. While the process of the assigning the Tribes and Centuries was being
> done, Lucius Equetius Cincinnatus began Impeachment proceedings against
the Censors, for not doing the job.
Cincinnatus:
> I never began anything. But I should have.
Cassius:
THAT I have the transcripts for. Want me to post 'em?? You keep saying you
want proof in text... heh heh. I have ALL the letters you wrote, the articles
of Impeachment, etc. I'll be happy to get 'em online any time you want. Think
the Citizens will be interested in seeing your letters to the people you were
trying to get into the Committee? There's some pretty incriminating stuff in
there... including talk against the OTHER Senators you were obviously
planning to remove - Metellus and Germanicus. Just say the words and I'll be
happy to do you the favor of getting the info up for people's perusal.
Cincinnatus:
>Gee,but that would not have
mattered Because I don't own Nova Roma.
Cassius:
And you know, I'm awfully glad you don't.
Cassius:
Never began anything? Would you like me to post the letter bashing the
Censors that you wrote on behalf of the Committee, trying to get folks to
sign on to the Impeachment? I DO have that Email of yours saved...
Cincinnatus:
> Sure, If your positive I wrote it! Maybe I was just forwarding something
that was being passed along to various Magistrates.
Cassius:
Say, you're right! If it doesn't have your handwritten signature on it, and
your fingerprints, it couldn't possibly have been from you. Good ploy
there... demand text and then just say that anything that doesn't make you
look like God incarnate is bogus.
>Cassius:
> I have absolutely *nothing* to do with the website at this point. I have
posted this several times. I'm not paying for it, my name isn't on it, it's
on a sever who's name I don't even know, I don't know any of the passwords,
I'm not one of the contact addresses, etc. I *used* to be the "billing
name"
Cincinnatus:
And you turned it over to Germanicus contrary to Consular veto. (thus the
illegality of all subsequent actions) Marcus Martianus was kicked off too
even tough he was doing a fantastic job.
Cassius:
Your Consular Veto came far too late. The Dictatorship was already in place.
You got the same opportunity you were giving your Co-Consul, the Censors, and
the rest of the Senate... none. As far as Gangalius - he was offered the
website again during the dictatorship, but refused it because he was too busy
sticking various body parts into the mouths of canines. Nasty habit, that.
>Cassius:
> 8. Flavius Vedius Germanicus took up the Censor position vacated by Marcus
>Cassius Julianus during the Dictatorship.
Cincinnatus:
So why in the hell were you guys Censores in the first place???
Cassius:
Because we were cute, that's why. Heck, just look at the photos of us up on
the website, and tell me we're not totally adorable! ;)
Seriously, when Nova Roma was founded there wasn't anyone else to do the job.
Germanicus had the software to do the database, and I was good with people
and was able to respond to questions properly, etc. There was no way to tell
that there would be so many troubles coming down the line...
Cassius:
Dude, I *never* took the job to create the Tribes. That was supposed to be
Germanicus' job.
Cincinnatus:
> Right, and he bagged you last year and you hand it right back to him. So
why did you do this? I suspect that because Germanicus owns the copywrite of
the name 'Nova Roma', the flag and some of the written material you had to.
Cassius:
I gave the job back to Germanicus because he's competent. One of the reasons
why I *didn't* pass the job on to you.
Cincinnatus:
> So is anyone going to answer the questions of what are the Bylaws of Nova
Roma Inc. and who are the board of directors??
Cassius:
Cincinnatus, you have me there! As of today, 8/31/99, NOTHING has changed.
The Board of Directors is still the same as when it was set up. The Bylaws
haven't changed either. There simply hasn't been time. AND... it probably
won't change before the middle of next month or so, when the paperwork can be
gathered up and processed properly. Just think, Cincinnatus... two or three
more weeks for you to spread discord and hatred! Go get 'em!
Cincinnatus:
> Also, I accused of "subverting the constitution". I would like for
*someone* to please cite just which part of it I was subverting, if you can
find anything.
Cassius:
So it was perfectly legal and in line with the Constitution to take it upon
yourself to remove everyone in the Senate but yourself and Flavia Claudia?
Please show ME where it says *that*.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Info on the Board of Directors and Bylaws |
| From: |
Cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:38:19 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/30/99 3:38:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:
<< From Day Interregnum +1 I had the same question. Part of the reason that I
was able to believe in Germanicus' legitimacy was the important Article I
paragraph B that states that the Nova Roma constitution would become the
bylaws of the corporation, the senate the board et cetera.
Perhaps it would be fair and helpful for a current magistrate to post a
confirmation that this has been done, as of what date the paperwork was
filed with the state of NH, et cetera, so as not to leave any doubt in
Lucius Equitius' or anyone else's mind.
>>
Salvete,
I regret to report that this work has NOT in fact yet been done. The
Dictatorship first had to work out all the new information to *create* the
new Bylaws before any paperwork could be changed. Also, since the Senate will
become the new Board of Directors, those positions had to be formally
accepted and ratified before the old Board of Directors could pass the task
over.
The last thing that needs to be done is that the current Election has to be
finished. That will give the new Board of Directors a President and Vice
President, something which is required by law.
I expect that the new paperwork will be completed and filed by the latter
part of next month at the latest. *Everybody* wants this done... the old
Board of Directors has mostly quit Nova Roma and desperately wants to be off
the official paperwork. The new Constitution will make a far more reasonable
set of Bylaws than what was cobbled together so that we could set up a bank
account last year to process money coming in from Citizens.
It's unfortunate that this couldn't be done instantly after the end of the
Dictatorship... but you can't change a board of directors over until the new
board members are actually set, and you can't put new Bylaws in place unless
they're codified and official. We're just now to the point where the process
can be started.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
|
| Subject: |
In the latest Explorator |
| From: |
"M. Papirius Justus" papirius@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:01:51 -0400 |
|
|
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: Cincinnatus and the Tribes |
| From: |
Cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:32:47 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/30/99 6:08:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=210166080237038233015038190036129" >iadams@--------</a> writ--------br>
L. Sergius Aust:
<< Salve Marcus Cassius,
>Just for the record, I can hardly be counted as Lucius Equitius' "most
ardent" supporter -- I haven't thrust my fist into the jaws of the wolf
even once, let alone twice.
Cassius:
And quite truthfully, I respect you all the more for it. That particular
episode achieved nothing except to get both of Gangalius' hands sprained not
two hours after making the post. I personally would consider that to be proof
that he wasn't in the right of the situation. Or... if one cannot accept
such a thing, that it was proof that the Asatru gods didn't particularly care
to be used as showpieces in such a petty (and Roman) conflict.
Even we *humans* had better things to do than that - it's hard to imagine
that the Gods were too pleased at getting dragged in!
L. Sergius Aust:
>Most of the people here have supported justice for Lucius Equitius to
varying degrees, right from the beginning of the Dictatorship. I doubt
that anyone's opinions have changed: we're just all interested in getting
on with things. All of his civil rights have been restored, and all the
facts of which we are aare have been stated publically, so there's no
point in going on indefinitely.
Cassius:
It's perfectly understandable that some folks should support Cincinnatus to
varying degrees and for various reasons. I myself am quite torn up over
feeling that I must "debate" with him in such a harsh manner on the list. He
and I got along great at the last Roman days... we traded stuff back and
forth and had a really nice time. Hardly likely that such things will be
happening again any time soon. :(
You're absolutely right - this thread should die. We should be trying to make
things better from here on in rather than continuing to mess with old wounds.
Unfortunately, if these topics *must* continue to be posted, then both
"sides" should be present. I despise having to continue an argument that's
grown both cold and silly... but the alternative is to allow "history" to be
revised in a totally one-sided manner because only one person was talking.
Also, it's pretty fair to say that if such posts were allowed to continue
unopposed, the result would be statements from Cincinnatus saying: "You see?
No one dares to oppose me because they know I speak the truth!"
Still I'll try and get this nonsense over with already. When the reply comes
to the latest posting, it should be possible to trim down the conversation to
the one or possibly two sane paragraphs and simply cut away the unproductive
bickering. That's how the first "debate" was finished.
Vale,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: Cincinnatus and the Tribes |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" amg@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:43:52 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes
We have now passed a crisis, and things seem to be working now. There were
no major reprisals, and Cincinnatus is a Senator, able to become a candidate
to magistracy. Lets forget the past...
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Info on the Board of Directors and Bylaws, Cincinnatus and the Tribes, Law Committee et cetera |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:22:12 -0400 |
|
Salvete Marce Cassi et alii
Thank you for posting the information about the changing of the guard at
Nova Roma Corp.
Even though it was less than what I had hoped for, like a date when
everything was done, it is at least a report of the status of the action,
with an explanation of why loose ends are still hanging.
Looking at all the forms of dysfunction that have been evident in Nova Roma,
whether it's failure on the part of a bunch of senior magistrates to form
tribes and centuries, or for the Law Committee to accomplish anything
whatsoever, I think that it's important to keep a couple of things in mind:
- People who run for magistracies should be prepared not only to do
something, but to cooperate with other magistrates. I am not an expert, but
I can say for sure that communication is vital to the success of any sort of
collaboration. Magistrates should be reporting to each other, both to
report the accomplishments and to seek advice and direction on stumbling
blocks. And it isn't because of some nebulous warm fuzzy feeling that we
all share for each other, it's because the alternative is a massive waste of
everyone's time, but especially, a massive waste of the time of magistrates
who work in a vacuum. I imagine that a large part of Cincinnatus' anger
stems from his never-to-be-completed work on the tribes and centuries.
Whatever hours he spent on that project he has lost irrevocably. I can
almost identify with that frustration, given the hourse that I spent
translating the old constiution (and I'm sure that Scaevola would like to
have his hours back spent editing my text).
- Citizens need to have some trust in the magistrates and give them the
benefit of the doubt. It is just plain counterproductive to approach each
and every issue with accusations. Of course, it is possible to have a
magistrate who will not perform his/her constitutional obligations, and we
now have the right to remove such a magistrate by a lex in the assembly that
elected him/her. But we all need to understand that that is the last
resort, since the process of removing someone and filling the vacant
position will be a further drain of time and effort.
It helps to have reports to the public on the status of things. It can't
hurt and may help citizens to develop some trust.
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------;
>
>I regret to report that this work has NOT in fact yet been done. The
>Dictatorship first had to work out all the new information to *create* the
>new Bylaws before any paperwork could be changed. Also, since the Senate
will
>become the new Board of Directors, those positions had to be formally
>accepted and ratified before the old Board of Directors could pass the task
>over.
>
>
>Valete,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: Cincinnatus and the Tribes |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:23:25 EDT |
|
Regardless of the debate...
Why has the website taken back to it's old form? Where is the handy-dandy
Roman Numeral Converter? And why the splash page again?
--Dexippus
The Chihuauas are taking over!!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: Info on the Board of Directors and Bylaws |
| From: |
Marius Fimbria legion6@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:45:24 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salvete omnes...
A quick question:
>Also, since the Senate will become the new Board of Directors, those
>positions had to be formally accepted and ratified before the old
>Board of Directors could pass the task over.
So are we still waiting for Cincinnatus to formally accept his
Citizenship and Senate seat back...? That's one of the hold-ups...?
Thank 'e...
-- L Marius Fimbria
(who firmly believes that if you're gonna include a long .sig block,
the message should be at least as long as the .sig block) >({|;-)
|
| Subject: |
Handy-dandy numeral converter was Re: Cincinnatus and the Tribes |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:12:26 -0400 |
|
Salvete Dexippe et alii
That converter is still there. Look under Via Romana, near the bottom of
the page, and you'll find its link. I know because I have been making good
use of it lately myself. Thanks Cassia.
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
Where is the handy-dandy
>Roman Numeral Converter? And why the splash page again?
>
>--Dexippus
>
>The Chihuauas are taking over!!!!
|
| Subject: |
keybaoorodwoeos |
| From: |
"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:53:13 -0500 |
|
our keyo board is trippoing and Io willo only be answering emaiolo
whioch is crucialo.
crys
|
| Subject: |
Get out the suffragium |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:27:01 -0400 |
|
Salvete cives
To those who have already voted: Thank you, voters!
To everyone else, I say why not post questions about the lex that is up for
your vote, or questions to the candidates? If you're looking for more
information before you decide how you're going to vote, this is the forum
for it.
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
rogator
|
| Subject: |
Adsum. |
| From: |
Razenna razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:44:47 -0700 |
|
Salvete.
Adsum.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.
|
| Subject: |
Latin |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@--------) |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:42:53 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Just a comment about those who use latin on the list in messages and in
various types of communication. I try not to use "Navy Slang" or
Re-Enactor Slang when I post messages to the list, because I am all too
aware that other members do not understand what I am talking about. The
use of latin without some explanation is something similar. Now I know
that latin is something that we are all striving in varing degrees to
learn. Me too but verrrrrry slowly as language is verrrrrrrry hard for
me.
However, in some recent posts the key words in the post were latin,a nd
my enjoyment of the post was therefore somewhat deflated. I would like
to see a word or two in good old english not only to understand what is
being said, but also to learn both of the words in question and how they
are used.
Now this is not really all that important an issue so that we should
start a thread of disagreement over, it, but it would be nice to be able
to understand the E-Mail that I am involved with. I understand too that
others who have no english at all, are handicapped on this list, but we
were just beginning to address that problem when the NR world blew up,
and I have not heard anything about it since. I no longer have the
imperium to contnue such research, but would be glad to be involved
should someone wish to follow-up. The work on the Old Constituton's
translation springs to mind as an effort aong those lines.
Just thought I would throw out the idea again and see what monster from
the deep crawls ashore to tear it to pieces.
Marcus Minucius Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: Get out the suffragium |
| From: |
Dexippus@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:35:35 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/31/99 1:29:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:
<< To everyone else, I say why not post questions about the lex that is up for
your vote, or questions to the candidates? If you're looking for more
information before you decide how you're going to vote, this is the forum
for it. >>
I thought the voting was ended? There's still time to vote?
--Dexippus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Get out the suffragium |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" amg@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:09:15 +0100 |
|
Salvete
There is plenty of time to vote. The edicts say that the assemblies will end
on September 7th.
I once more appeal for all citizens to vote. These first assemblies are
extremely important.
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Tribunus Plebis et coetera
|
| Subject: |
California Provincia |
| From: |
Razenna razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:32:23 -0700 |
|
Salvete.
I will lay down my Propraetorship of California Provincia the instant that L. Cornelius
Sulla is confirmed as Consul.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius
Propraetor of California Provincia.
[PrePost-PostPreProPraetor???]
Ave Roma Immortalis!
[where ever]
|
| Subject: |
Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
George VanDeWater VanDeWGe@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:08:22 -0600 |
|
Salve,
As a new comer to the Nova Roma arena and the candidate for Aedilis Plebis, I regret that you feel you must lay down your Propraetorship of the California Provincia. I believe we need everyone to help bring Nova Roma back to where it could and should be. Much work is needed in the various Provincia and that can be accomplished through the Plebeian Assemblies. If we all gave up and just went home Nova Roma would not exist.
Vale,
G. Africanus Secundus
>>> Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> 08/31 2:32 PM >>>
From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
Salvete.
I will lay down my Propraetorship of California Provincia the instant that L. Cornelius
Sulla is confirmed as Consul.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius
Propraetor of California Provincia.
[PrePost-PostPreProPraetor???]
Ave Roma Immortalis!
[where ever]
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
Show your ONElist SPIRIT!
<a href=" <a href="http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt2" target="_top" >http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt2</a> ">Click Here</a>
With a new ONElist SHIRT available through our website.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
dean6886@--------) |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:11:58 -0500 (CDT) |
|
I sincerely hope you reconsider Ericius. Sometimes I just can't
understand why people do what they do here. Human nature sucks.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
(hanging out in the Nova Roma schoolyard)
|
| Subject: |
Re: Get out the suffragium |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:16:00 -0400 |
|
Salvete Dexippe
Yes, there is still time. Voting periods span two nundinae (about two
weeks) at a minimum, and the comitia that are now in session were convened
on vii Kal Sept (August 26).
And so, if you have not voted yet, don't worry, you still can.
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
rogator
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
>I thought the voting was ended? There's still time to vote?
>
>--Dexippus
----------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
Yea or Nay on Candidates ? |
| From: |
"LegionXXIV" LegionXXIV@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:30:46 -0400 |
|
Gallio Marsallas of Legion XXIV here with a suggestion on future voting.
I too was not happy with the so-called "Forced-Vote" situation.
What about having a "Yea" or "Nay" vote on candidates for office.
If the Yea votes are in the majority, then of course, the candidate is elected.
However, if the Nay votes exceed the Yea votes, then the nominee is
rejected, even if he/she is the only nominee for the office.
In the future, there could be a candidate (opposed or unopposed)
put forward for an office that the majority of the citizens feel would
not be in the best interests of NovaRoma and this system of a
"vote of no confidence" would provide a mechanism for
"turning-away" undesirable contenders.
In other words, the citizens would have the means to say...
"We Do Not Want This Person in That Office - Find Someone Else"
With the general dirth of candidates running for office in NovaRoma,
this scenario could well come to pass in the future. Plan for it Now !
Thanking you for your consideration of this idea, I remain as always
Tuus in Sodalicio Respublica Romanae
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Republic
Gallio / George
|
| Subject: |
Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
"RMerullo" rmerullo@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:40:16 -0400 |
|
Salvete C Aeli et alii
Why?
I thought that in the late Republic, consuls (and other magistrates)
generally went out to govern provinces upon the conclusion of their terms of
office. If you are making way for Sulla to govern California instead of
you, have you already agreed that he wants/needs to govern California during
his term of office?
Nowhere in our constitution is it explicitly stated that consuls govern
provinces. Article V.C.2.a states:
Those (provincial governors) currently serving as consuls or praetors shall
go by their normal title;
But this only defines the title; I don't believe that it mandates that
consuls assume administration of the provinces in which they reside.
To me it woud seem more in keeping with the mos maiorum for the Senate
either to appoint Sulla as Proconsul to California at the conclusion of his
term, or for the Senate to prorogue you at that time if Sulla doesn't want
or cannot take the office at that time, assuming that you are still
available to govern California Provincia.
Valete
Gaius Marius Merullus
qui in California numquam non erat
Who, by the way, has never been in California
>From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
>
>I will lay down my Propraetorship of California Provincia the instant that
L. Cornelius
>Sulla is confirmed as Consul.
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
Razenna razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:57:39 -0700 |
|
I am a wicked, nasty man with an even worse sense of humor. Merullus, you are to only one
to get the point at this point.
Perhaps I have misunderstood the NR constitution, but it is difficult to hit a moving
target, LOL! A serving Consul has been the governor of the province he lives in.
Therefore, Sulla will be governor of California Provincia (which incised Nevada BTW) when
he becomes Consul. Maybe this has been adjusted. I didn't catch it. I don't care.
Domitianus, thank you for you good words, all I can give you in return is a "Gotcha!"
Fimbria gets a "Gotcha!" too, and a shake of the head. Fimbria! We went over this
before, and after i explained it you pleaded distraction on account of the events of the
world. It was interesting to see that your faith in me rates with your memory. Do you
really think I would have made it through the sh*t of the last several months to leave
because ***S*U*L*L*A***!!!! becomes Junior Consul by default? If Helena Equitia thinks
he's okay, ... well... he can't be ALL bad! LOL [& a wink-nudge towards Pasadena].
Ericius.
RMerullo wrote:
> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
> Salvete C Aeli et alii
>
> Why?
>
> I thought that in the late Republic, consuls (and other magistrates)
> generally went out to govern provinces upon the conclusion of their terms of
> office. If you are making way for Sulla to govern California instead of
> you, have you already agreed that he wants/needs to govern California during
> his term of office?
>
> Nowhere in our constitution is it explicitly stated that consuls govern
> provinces. Article V.C.2.a states:
>
> Those (provincial governors) currently serving as consuls or praetors shall
> go by their normal title;
>
> But this only defines the title; I don't believe that it mandates that
> consuls assume administration of the provinces in which they reside.
>
> To me it woud seem more in keeping with the mos maiorum for the Senate
> either to appoint Sulla as Proconsul to California at the conclusion of his
> term, or for the Senate to prorogue you at that time if Sulla doesn't want
> or cannot take the office at that time, assuming that you are still
> available to govern California Provincia.
>
> Valete
>
> Gaius Marius Merullus
> qui in California numquam non erat
> Who, by the way, has never been in California
>
> >From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
> >
> >I will lay down my Propraetorship of California Provincia the instant that
> L. Cornelius
> >Sulla is confirmed as Consul.
> >
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist: your connection to online communities.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
Marius Fimbria legion6@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:25:34 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salvete omnes...as well as I may hail everyone with egg on my face...
Yes, I did indeed think Ericius was laying down his Praetorship as some
form of protest. I wired him privately to express my dismay
(**WARNING: UNDERSTATEMENT!!**)...er, ahem, anyway, as Pater Merullus
has pointed out, I may have grossly misunderstood the situation. I
have since tendered Ericius my apology. My bad... (*sigh*)
Erici, make that a capital GOTCHA and yer on!! >({|:#)
************************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |>[SPQR]<|
mka Märia Villarroel |\=/|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Roman Historical Re-Creationist `\*/, ``}`^~``,,, \ \
and Citizen of Nova Roma ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman... It's hard work, _|_| / _/_| /`(
but SOMEbody's gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'
|
| Subject: |
Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
George VanDeWater VanDeWGe@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:46:42 -0600 |
|
Salvete omnes...
I too may have egg on my face...
Not knowing all the history or players I also thought Ericius was laying down his Praetorship as some form of protest.
I tender to Ericius my apology. My bad... (*sigh*)
G. Africanus Secundus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
"Helena Equitia" gretagoring@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:42:23 PDT |
|
Thank you my dear Ericius... [grin]
-Helena Equitia
>Do you really think I would have made it through the sh*t of the >last
>several months to leave because ***S*U*L*L*A***!!!! becomes >Junior Consul
>by default? If Helena Equitia thinks he's okay, ... >well... he can't be
>ALL bad! LOL [& a wink-nudge towards Pasadena].
>
>Ericius.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
"Helena Equitia" gretagoring@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:33:54 PDT |
|
Thank you my dear Ericius.
(By the way, I missed you. [grin])
-Helena Equitia
>Do you really think I would have made it through the sh*t of the >last
>several months to leave because ***S*U*L*L*A***!!!! becomes >Junior Consul
>by default? If Helena Equitia thinks he's okay, ... >well... he can't be
>ALL bad! LOL [& a wink-nudge towards Pasadena].
>
>Ericius.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Re: Cincinnatus and the Tribes] |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:01:48 -0700 |
|
Vercingetorix2 wrote:
> From: Verci--------orix2 <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=251056091098082116048038031024172089067083044234209130152" >Verci--------orix2@--------</a>
>
> Cincinnatus:So why in the hell were you guys Censores in the first place???
>
> Cassius:Because we were cute, that's why. Heck, just look at the photos of us
> up on <br>the website, and tell me we're not totally adorable! ;)
>
> This makes sense to me.
> We elect Presidents in this country on the very same basis.
>
> Following this thread is exactly like watching a car wreck. Gory, but
> fascinating in its own twisted way. I look forward to the next installment of
> "As The Roman World Turns."
>
> Are you two planning on being Sally Jesse's guests soon?
>
No. It's the Jerry Springer show and I want front row seats!!!
Sulla
*Brings in a big box of popcorn and a six-pack of beer to enjoy the show!!!*
>
> Vercingetorix
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at <a href="http://webmail.netscape.com" target="_top" >http://webmail.netscape.com</a>.
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
Law committee |
| From: |
"Lucius" vergil@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:29:22 -0400 |
|
Salvete, Omnes
> Once again some people don't have their facts straight. The only Senator
> that was involved was Flavia Claudia. This was the last post I ever received
> concerning this subject and it was sent to the list not the Senate.
>
> Valete, Lucius Equitius
>
Sulla: Are you sure that is completely true. F. Claudia said at the time, if I
remember correctly that the Senate asked her to head it up.....if you would like
I will be more than happy to confirm that with her. Besides...
Yes, Flavia did volunteer to head a law committee but that was the last I heard of it besides her post concerning who were members and as you will see there is some question as to who was the chairperson.
AND, This is an interesting question in light of what has happened...
you were Senior
Consul..are you telling us that as Senior Consul, the Senate of Nova Roma was
taking actions that you had NO idea what was going on?
Cincinnatus; How do you think they voted on a Dictator?? I told you I vetoed it, but they say it's too late. How can it be too late when I veto it as soon as it is announced? Just like I vetoed the changing of the website and firing of Gangalius. But they did it anyway. It's absurd. They say as Senior Consul I could do this, that or the other, but in reality I could only do what they aggreed to.
Even Av. Tullius Callidus said that the notes he was taking were being reported to the Senate.He stated that I believe to Q. Fabius Maximus and myself.
L. Cornelius Sulla, Senator
Cincinnatus: Yes Callidus was sending 'Word' attachments to the Senate. I have them as printouts now, they are quite nice. But they don't say anything about a committee. I thought they were his proposals.
Salve Lucius Equitius!
To set the record straight, (why I really don't know, must be the Roman in
me,) the then chair of the law committee, Tribune of the Plebeians A. Tullius
Callidus told me that he was reporting his discussions and findings directly
to the Senate.When I was working on listing all the ancient Leges for F.
Claudia, she told me that the Senate was in the loop.
L Equitius; I just thought that nothing was happening, in other words situation normal. SNAFU
(situation normal, all fouled up) I never knew Callidius was chair of the Law commitee. I posted what I knew about the law commitee. That Claudia was 'head', now you say Callidius was. SEE how things have gone.
So, Lucius Equitius apparently you as the senior consul was receiving no
information, which begs for an interesting question. If this was the case,
why?
L Equitius: I just thought people were busy with other things.
People didn't think you were critical to the process? Or as senior
consul, everybody would only report to you when the subject was completed or
did people just did not want to report to you?
TL Equitius: This may be true: however, Quaestor Audens was always consistent with reports concerning the 'Financial Committee' whenever he could gather enough information to report.
If it was the latter that would explain greatly the paralysis NR suffered during your consulship. C. Sulla and I, F. Maximus were at two meetings chaired by the Tribune, we discussed a bit about the law in NR, but Tullius seemed to be more interested in getting his concept of how the centuries would be formed adopted by the Senate than instituting major law reform.
Vale Q. Fabius Maximus, Curule Aedile.
L Equitius: I wouldn't know about these meetings, but what you say sounds fair enough after looking again at the "notes" he sent to the Senate.
Valete, L Equitius
(titles too numerous to list :-) who has resigned nothing)
|
| Subject: |
Re: Yea or Nay on Candidates ? |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:09:54 -0400 |
|
Salve,
> F-------- "LegionXXIV" <a h--------"/post/nova--------?p--------ctID=226056178009193116001195151189114012071048139" >LegionXXIV@--------</a>
>
> I too was not happy with the so-called "Forced-Vote" situation.
>
> What about having a "Yea" or "Nay" vote on candidates for office.
>
> If the Yea votes are in the majority, then of course, the candidate is
elected.
>
> However, if the Nay votes exceed the Yea votes, then the nominee is
> rejected, even if he/she is the only nominee for the office.
I, for one, think this is a terrible idea. Everyone has an opportunity to
run for office; if only one person stands up to the plate, I hardly think
it's fair to deny him or her the office. I honestly believe that it's better
to have someone in office that may be unliked, rather than having nobody in
office at all.
There was a movie about this once, I think, where people voted in "none of
the above". The idea caught on, and soon there weren't any elected officials
as well. And, quite honestly, if someone chimes up and says that's
preferable, then you're in the wrong micronation. Ancient Rome has a long
and wonderful tradition of public service, and I think that such a tradition
must be nurtured and encouraged. The way to do that is _not_ by voting out
the only person to bother to run for office.
Rather than railing against the system that denied you a choice, you should
be lambasting one another for your lack of civic involvement. The fact that
there was only one person running for office during this interim election is
*disgraceful*! With such a wide variety of sincerely held beliefs and really
excellent visions for the direction that Nova Roma should be moving, there
should have been half a dozen people running for consul and aedile! I can
only hope that people were reticent because this was an interim election,
and whoever won only serves for three months or so. People may be conserving
their political energies for the big elections in December. If not, if we're
truly as plagued with ennui and an attitude of "it's easier to criticize
than to act" as I'm beginning to think we are, then we're in far deeper
trouble than any constitutional crisis could ever bring about.
Please don't think this is directed at you, Maria; it's aimed at everyone
who's never bothered to involve themselves in public affairs, or (worse) who
have stayed on the sidelines and made trouble without trying to do anything
productive.
Get involved, people!
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:38:55 EDT |
|
Salve,
I agree. Lucius Cornelius Sulla is about to become a Consul of Nova Roma.
That doesn't make him the governor of a particular province. His
responsibilities are for the nation as a whole. At least that is my
understanding of how it should work.
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust.
>From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
>Salvete C Aeli et alii
>
>Why?
>
>I thought that in the late Republic, consuls (and other magistrates)
>generally went out to govern provinces upon the conclusion of their terms of
>office. If you are making way for Sulla to govern California instead of
>you, have you already agreed that he wants/needs to govern California during
>his term of office?
>
>Nowhere in our constitution is it explicitly stated that consuls govern
>provinces. Article V.C.2.a states:
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:54:16 -0400 |
|
Salve,
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
>
> Salve,
>
> I agree. Lucius Cornelius Sulla is about to become a Consul of Nova Roma.
> That doesn't make him the governor of a particular province. His
> responsibilities are for the nation as a whole. At least that is my
> understanding of how it should work.
Absolutely correct. Under the old constitution, as I recall, consuls were
automatically made governor of the province in which they lived. However,
under the new system, governors are appointed by the Senate, which is under
no obligation to make a sitting consul governor of any province. (Indeed, I
rather think that in the specific case of Sulla, we all kind of assumed
there'd be a vote to appoint him proconsul when Ericius left at the end of
the year as he had previously announced, with the key being that he wouldn't
be appointed until there was an opening, rather than throwing out whoever
was already in the position to make room for him.)
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
|
| Subject: |
Cassius and the Tribes |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:03:47 -0400 |
|
Message: 22
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:27:33 EDT
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------;
Subject: Re: Cincinnatus and the Tribes
Salvete,
Since, it seems from the latest post of Cassius that he regrets this as much as I do but seems compelled to continue in the search for historical accuracy. I think it only fair that I have a say too. Yes, there are some harsh statements and hard questions that should be answered. But I offer no ill will towards M Cassius personally. We have had heated debates in the past, both publicly and in private.
Cassius:
Germanicus didn't appoint himself Censor.
Cincinnatus; Well then, who voted him in??
> Cincinnatus:
> The Censores never asked the Senate to do the Tribes. Show the transcript.
Cassius:
Since you know very well that *nobody* has any of the old transcripts, feel
free to support your argument by continuing to call for them every time you
post!
Cincinnatus: I have old buisness saved but this one never existed. Am I suppost to prove a negitive? This is not a rule of law, is it?
> Cassius:
> You were all upset about the Tribes.
Cincinnatus:
No, you should have just forwarded the information to me but you never did.
Just why not?
Cassius:
I'm actually glad I didn't forward any more information to you than I did,
since you've refused to turn anything sent to you over to Palladius and
Germanicus in an attempt to sabotage their efforts to set things straight.
Cincinnatus: Well, "Dude" :-) no one ever asked me for anything. Refused? Sabotage?? There you go again making slanderous accusations.
If they want any information, all they need to do is ask. I'll give it if I have it.
Pix for the site, citizen info. info from my library. I have always tried to help any citizen, if I could. Praetores Ericius et F Iucundia asked for residents of their provincia and I sent them the info they asked for. But I guess I'm suppose to prove Palladius or Gemanicus didn't ask too.
Cassius:
I'll happily admit you got an old list! Trouble was, it was forwarded to you
in late January by Flavia Claudia, not in April.
Cincinnatus: Look I can prove she sent me a list in April. Because I have it.
I cannot however prove a negative, that she didn't send one earlier. Because I don't have it to show, it doen't exist. She sent the April list to you, Palladius and me.
-----Original Message-----
From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029176066112038190112158203026129208071" >m--------oon@--------</a> <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029176066112038190112158203026129208071" >m--------oon@--------</a>
To: <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a> <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>; <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >cassius622@a...</a> <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >cassius622@a...</a>; <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=014158113165021154015057190036129" >bcatfd@t...</a> <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=014158113165021154015057190036129" >bcatfd@t...</a>
Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 7:57 AM
Subject: April citizen list
I'm only sending it to the three of you, so you can send it to whoever it is that's doing the Tribes and Centuries.
-- Flavia Claudia
Cassius:
Wheee! This is fun! For the twentieth time now, you received a list long
before APRIL came along. (Hey, let's debate this some more! Go ahead... tell
me again how you didn't receive anything at all until April. Please?) :)
CIncinnatus: Nah, You just prove it, that's all. You make an accusation, you prove it. I think people will remember that I sent Gangalius a list of Cives which he posted on the Site (which is now gone). The point being that citizens could check it themselves and let us know if they were missing (which happened). So I am competent to do lists given the information.
Cassius:
ROTFL!!!!
Why on earth would I hold back info when I was hoping you *would* get the
tribes done?
Cincinnatus: Because you were busy with other things. You know that better than anyone else. You, yourself, didn't send me anything until June so you were actually not doing anything to help until then.
Cassius:
Because I thought you were a friend, and I was trying really, really hard not
to hurt you publically.
Cincinnatus: Like you, I feel I have the right to defend my Dignitas. You have made some harsh statements about me too.
Cassius:
Little did I know you were busy working on my
impeachment at the time.
Cincinnatus: Do you think it was my idea? and I was the only one frustrated? Really, People came to me with ideas on what could be possibly done. Yes, I knew about them and so did other magistrates, that's how you found out.
> Cassius:
>Nor did he at any time turn the situation over to the Senate...
> Cincinnatus:
> Firstly, I wasn't Censor,
> Cassius:
> No, you were Senior Consul, with the power...
Cincinnatus: Apparently not.
Cincinnatus:
Nope, I didn't have the power to do that, the Censores are to do those things.
Cassius:
So the Senior Consul had no power to bring a Situation up for Senate debate,
Cincinnatus: Debate?? What was there to debate? It's the Censores job, it's in the constitution... Oh I'm supposed to be subverting that.
Cincinnatus:
> You had new citizens coming every day, at least that was what you were
telling me.
Cassius:
We certainly DID have new Citizens coming in every day. We've had that going
on since the day of founding...
What was needed was a tribe SYSTEM.
Cincinnatus: I told Palladius *that* over the phone. He could have done it too, you know. I really believed that I didn't have the information I needed to do a good job. Maybe I did have all the there was, But I kept hearing that there was this backlog of applications and I wanted to include them before posting, but by the time we got that straight it was Roman Days and you promised that they would be done the week of your return.
Cincinnatus:
ONCE Again I did not have a list to work with. Cassius, you were telling me
that Nova Roma was getting new citizens all the time.
Cassius:
So why would this have prevented me from forwarding an old, outdated list to
you that had at least MOST of the Citizens?
Cincinnatus: Good question. why didn't you?
Cassius:
Unfortunately, since we were having "webmaster" problems at the same time.
Cincinnatus: It wasn't a problem really. Palladius and I appointed Gangalius and Germanicus, but Germanicus wanted control or nothing, so he quit.
Cassius:
You're right... I wasn't "officially" impeached.
Cincinnatus:
> I never began anything. But I should have.
Cassius:
THAT I have the transcripts for. Want me to post 'em?? You keep saying you
want proof in text... heh heh. I have ALL the letters you wrote, the articles
of Impeachment, etc.
Cincinnatus: Go for it. But I didn't write the Articles of Impeachment, just like I didn't write the Reprimand, remember?
But anyway what if I did? Does that really matter? You still were not doing anything to get your job as Censor done, you weren't doing it and you weren't sending information out to get it done. Gee, haven't you said the as Senior Consul I should form a committee for ..... well maybe this was a comittee. Ask Graecus he said nobody did anything wrong.
That was ONE idea, should you fail to live up to your word to form the Tribes the week after your return from Roman Days as you promised (which didn't happen) and magistrates were then very upset. everyone was expecting them after that, and soon.
Cincinnatus:
>Gee,but that would not have
mattered Because I don't own Nova Roma.
Cassius:
And you know, I'm awfully glad you don't.
Cincinnatus: Another cheap shot.
Cassius:
Never began anything? Would you like me to post the letter bashing the
Censors that you wrote on behalf of the Committee, trying to get folks to
sign on to the Impeachment? I DO have that Email of yours saved...
Cincinnatus: Remember, I have letters too, where they were sent from and to whom they were sent. You got them from Flavia because I sent them to her. DO you really think I didn't know she was going to send them to you??? She even mentioned giving you a 'heads up'.
I was hoping you would get the hint that people weren't too happy with the situation. But I didn't think you would take down the site, but now we all see that any elections are just a farce.
Cincinnatus:
> Sure, If your positive I wrote it! Maybe I was just forwarding something
that was being passed along to various Magistrates.
Cassius:
Say, you're right! If it doesn't have your handwritten signature on it, and
your fingerprints, it couldn't possibly have been from you. Good ploy
there... demand text and then just say that anything that doesn't make you
look like God incarnate is bogus.
Cincinnatus: Just like you have been doing since you took the site down. Nothing is your fault. I'm to blame. I'm the one that was holding everything up. Look, You owned the site, your on the board of directors, you were Censor thus getting all citizens application, nothing was happening because you weren't doing it. You were in control until you gave it to Germancius, now everyone is so glad that things are getting done they don't care that he has made himself King. I suppose it is easy if it doesn't have to be voted on, or you can pick who votes.
>Cassius:
> I have absolutely *nothing* to do with the website at this point.
Cincinnatus:
And you turned it over to Germanicus contrary to Consular veto.
Cassius:
Your Consular Veto came far too late.
Cincinnatus: Where is it stated that there is a time limit on it??? Gee, not even a day let alone a market day interval!!!! Some veto power, Senior Consul has the power...Talk about BOGUS!
Cincinnatus:
So why in the hell were you guys Censores in the first place???
Cassius:
Because we were cute, that's why.
Seriously, when Nova Roma was founded there wasn't anyone else to do the job.
Germanicus had the software to do the database, and I was good with people
and was able to respond to questions properly, etc.
Dude, I *never* took the job to create the Tribes. That was supposed to be
Germanicus' job.
Cincinnatus:
> Right, and he bagged you last year and you hand it right back to him. So
why did you do this? I suspect that because Germanicus owns the copywrite of
the name 'Nova Roma', the flag and some of the written material you had to.
Cassius:
I gave the job back to Germanicus because he's competent. One of the reasons
why I *didn't* pass the job on to you.
Cincinnatus: Another cheap shot. At least we know how Gemanicus was made Censor, handed down like the imperial throne. Neat, no votes no election, a real republic.
Shall we discuss my order from the Mecellum? Talk about competence or rather the lack thereof.
Cincinnatus:
> So is anyone going to answer the questions of what are the Bylaws of Nova
Roma Inc. and who are the board of directors??
Cassius:
Cincinnatus, you have me there! As of today, 8/31/99, NOTHING has changed.
The Board of Directors is still the same as when it was set up. The Bylaws
haven't changed either. There simply hasn't been time. AND...
Cincinnatus: ...A little taste, similar to what I got concerning the Tribes whenever I asked for information. I guess I get to take a cheap shot now :-)
*Note that the list of the board of directors and the Bylaws still isn't posted.
Cincinnatus:
> Also, I accused of "subverting the constitution". I would like for
*someone* to please cite just which part of it I was subverting, if you can
find anything.
Cassius:
So it was perfectly legal and in line with the Constitution to take it upon
yourself to remove everyone in the Senate but yourself and Flavia Claudia?
Please show ME where it says *that*. Valete, Marcus Cassius Julianus
Cincinnatus: What are you talking about?? Now your talking about Senatores. Who has said anything about Senatores but you? Nobody I knew was saying anything about Senatores, Except the occasional question on the whereabouts of Metellus. Stick to the point. You and Palladius weren't doing your job as Censor and people, not just me, were upset about it and That's a fact, Jack.
Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
(who has not resigned anything)
Di nos salvom et servatum volunt.
Mars nos protegis!
|
| Subject: |
Re:California Provincia [Grumble!] |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:10:25 -0700 |
|
Phrrp!
I checked the New constitution, again. Nope. It doesn't let me off that soon.
[felderkarp]
I guess I'm stuck til Sulla becomes a proconsul.
C. Aelius Ericius
[still] Propraetor ad Californiam Provinciam
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; wrote:
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
>
> Salve,
>
> I agree. Lucius Cornelius Sulla is about to become a Consul of Nova Roma.
> That doesn't make him the governor of a particular province. His
> responsibilities are for the nation as a whole. At least that is my
> understanding of how it should work.
>
> Vale,
>
> L. Sergius Aust.
>
> >From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
> >
> >Salvete C Aeli et alii
> >
> >Why?
> >
> >I thought that in the late Republic, consuls (and other magistrates)
> >generally went out to govern provinces upon the conclusion of their terms of
> >office. If you are making way for Sulla to govern California instead of
> >you, have you already agreed that he wants/needs to govern California during
> >his term of office?
> >
> >Nowhere in our constitution is it explicitly stated that consuls govern
> >provinces. Article V.C.2.a states:
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Congratulations to THE_COALITION. Our latest ONElist of the week.
> For full story and to submit yours, go to
> <a href=" <a href="http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/ootw24" target="_top" >http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/ootw24</a> ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
Re: EDICTA FOR COMITIA CENTURIATA |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:23:20 -0700 |
|
I have tried to catch up on all of the back issues via the list archives. I am not going
to comment on all that has transpired. I hope some the things unsnarl on their own. I
have my voter codes, I have voted, but...
there was no sign of the Lex Iunia de Magitratum Aetate on the ballot. What happened?
Did I miss it getting pulled after this ballot announcement was posted? I did not think
it was a Plebes only issue, while the Lex Iunia de Temporum Definitione Consultuum was for
the entire citizen body. As I said, I have already voted. Call me stupid (you won't be
the firs to do so), I do have some faith in this clam bake. I assume I missed something,
or that if an error, it will be set right. Just the same, I am curious as to what the
scoop is.
Thanks.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius
|
| Subject: |
Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:28:30 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Razenna wrote:
> From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
>
> Salvete.
>
> I will lay down my Propraetorship of California Provincia the instant that
>L. Cornelius
> Sulla is confirmed as Consul.
Just to let you know, you don't have to do that. I am consul but never
assumed the governorship of the New England province--I let Cassius
continue in the role, since the province is neglected while one is consul.
So, you do not have to step down though I realize you planned to step down
in December anyway.
Vale,
Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: California Provincia |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:28:29 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes..
Well...since I have been the subject of this thread...directly or indirectly let
me just tell everyone....that at this Juncture I have NO wish to be Praetor, or
whatever title of California. I have enough to handle spending time with Helena
Equitia Ovidia studying for the LSAT, Preparing various Lexes for Nova Roma,
resolving various gens issues, and working at Earthlink. Thank you Ericius for
not thrusting me with that responsibility as well...I greatly appreciate it!
L. Cornelius Sulla
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
Senator
|
| Subject: |
Re: Cassius and the Tribes |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:39:54 -0400 |
|
Salve,
I feel like I should take a shower after even dipping into this debate, but
I have to make one correction for the record:
> From: "Lucius" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
>
> Cassius:
> Unfortunately, since we were having "webmaster" problems at the same time.
>
> Cincinnatus: It wasn't a problem really. Palladius and I appointed
Gangalius and Germanicus, but
> Germanicus wanted control or nothing, so he quit.
Ummmm... no.
You and Palladius appointed Gangalius, and Patricia (the webmaster at the
time) appointed me within a day or two. Nobody bothered to tell anyone else
what they'd done. Gangalius thought I was horning in on his territory, and I
thought the same thing about him. We only found this out when we spoke on
the phone together in early July.
The problem wasn't that I wasn't "in control" of the web site. The problem
was that I was told I was to be web master, and was serving in that capacity
for about a week, and then you turned around and said that I was actually
going to be co-webmaster. No consultation, no input, no nothing. Now, think
how you'd feel if you were told you were going to be made manager of the
local Arby's, and then a week later you found out that a "co-manager" was
going to be assigned. You'd feel really poorly used.
Gangalius and I actually said the same thing on the phone; if the four of
you (Palladius, yourself, Patricia, and Cassius) had taken the time to
coordinate your efforts and approach us both and say "Want to be
co-webmaster?" we both would have said yes without a peep. But it was
unfortunate timing (and an unfortunately worded email that I know you
received that directly insulted my technical abilities) that led me to just
chuck the whole idea.
Left because I couldn't be in charge? Nice story, but it doesn't fit the
facts. As with so much that's caused stress in our society over the last few
months, honest misunderstanding and self-serving distortion have combined to
warp the truth. I know you loathe me, and if I understand your reasons (even
if I don't agree with them). But this is one of your little distortions of
the truth that I won't let go unchallenged. I left the position of webmaster
because it was presented as a demotion, and because my web design abilities
were maligned.
My apologies to everyone who wanted to see this bickering die; nobody wants
it more than me. But to let it die with lies gives credence to those lies,
and I could not allow that.
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
|
| Subject: |
Board of Directors |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:48:59 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, RMerullo wrote:
> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
> >From Day Interregnum +1 I had the same question. Part of the reason that I
> was able to believe in Germanicus' legitimacy was the important Article I
> paragraph B that states that the Nova Roma constitution would become the
> bylaws of the corporation, the senate the board et cetera.
>
> Perhaps it would be fair and helpful for a current magistrate to post a
> confirmation that this has been done, as of what date the paperwork was
> filed with the state of NH, et cetera, so as not to leave any doubt in
> Lucius Equitius' or anyone else's mind.
Salve G. Mari Merulle,
To alleviate any doubt in your mind, I will add to what Marcus Cassius
Iulianus said about the Board of Directors.
Officially the changeover has not happened yet. As Cassius said, we
hope to have this done by the end of next month, when new incorporation
papers will be sent to--I believe--all senators to sign as members of the
board. This will be discussed by the Senate before it happens, so they
know what is going on, and the results of that discussion will be reported
to the People. Even though the changeover is not yet completed, the board
(or what is left of it) has publicly stated its intent to go through with
the changeover. In keeping with that intent--public promise if you will--
the Constitution of Nova Roma is the de facto bylaws of the Nova Roma
Corporation and the Senate is the Board of Directors. So, to see the
bylaws, go to the site and look at the Constitution in the Aerarium
Saturni. To see the board of directors, click on the Censorial Alba and
look at the Album Senatorium. Currently, I am the sole president of the
Corporation (Sulla will be co-president when the election is completed and
he becomes consul), M. Mucius Scaevola is the Vice-President (the sole
vice-president until there is a vote for replacement praetor). There are,
for all intents and purposes, no longer the two old and separate Nova
Romas: the legal entity known as the Nova Roma Corporation which was
according to civil law the ultimate legal authority over Nova Roma and its
parts (and thus was able to dissolve it and reform it in the current
form); and the micronation of Nova Roma which was represented by the old
governmental system of Nova Roma--which in truth was subject to the
corporation. No longer will the latter be subject to the former, but they
are merged.
Valete,
Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Cassius and the Tribes |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:52:57 -0700 |
|
Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
>
> Salve,
>
> I feel like I should take a shower after even dipping into this debate, but
> I have to make one correction for the record:
>
> > From: "Lucius" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a>
> >
> > Cassius:
> > Unfortunately, since we were having "webmaster" problems at the same time.
> >
> > Cincinnatus: It wasn't a problem really. Palladius and I appointed
> Gangalius and Germanicus, but
> > Germanicus wanted control or nothing, so he quit.
>
> Ummmm... no.
>
> You and Palladius appointed Gangalius, and Patricia (the webmaster at the
> time) appointed me within a day or two. Nobody bothered to tell anyone else
> what they'd done. Gangalius thought I was horning in on his territory, and I
> thought the same thing about him. We only found this out when we spoke on
> the phone together in early July.
>
> The problem wasn't that I wasn't "in control" of the web site. The problem
> was that I was told I was to be web master, and was serving in that capacity
> for about a week, and then you turned around and said that I was actually
> going to be co-webmaster. No consultation, no input, no nothing. Now, think
> how you'd feel if you were told you were going to be made manager of the
> local Arby's, and then a week later you found out that a "co-manager" was
> going to be assigned. You'd feel really poorly used.
>
> Gangalius and I actually said the same thing on the phone; if the four of
> you (Palladius, yourself, Patricia, and Cassius) had taken the time to
> coordinate your efforts and approach us both and say "Want to be
> co-webmaster?" we both would have said yes without a peep. But it was
> unfortunate timing (and an unfortunately worded email that I know you
> received that directly insulted my technical abilities) that led me to just
> chuck the whole idea.
>
> Left because I couldn't be in charge? Nice story, but it doesn't fit the
> facts. As with so much that's caused stress in our society over the last few
> months, honest misunderstanding and self-serving distortion have combined to
> warp the truth. I know you loathe me, and if I understand your reasons (even
> if I don't agree with them). But this is one of your little distortions of
> the truth that I won't let go unchallenged. I left the position of webmaster
> because it was presented as a demotion, and because my web design abilities
> were maligned.
Yes his abilites were Maligned if you read the SOURCE CODE On the main web page
it states Created by a Person who knows real code. I think personally that is a
cheap shot, and it shows a lack of dignitas, by the Attack Poodle as some of us
lovingly call Gangalius. I think Germancius is correct in his assessment. And
if you want to see the quote go to View and Page Source it is right at the top
of the web page.
L. Cornelius Sulla
Senator
>
>
> My apologies to everyone who wanted to see this bickering die; nobody wants
> it more than me. But to let it die with lies gives credence to those lies,
> and I could not allow that.
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist users: YOU can win a $100 gift certificate to Amazon.com.
> Check out the FRIENDS & FAMILY program to find out how.
> <a href=" <a href="http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Teaser112" target="_top" >http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Teaser112</a> ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
Re: Get out the suffragium |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:55:32 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 8/31/99 1:29:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:
>
> << To everyone else, I say why not post questions about the lex that is up for
> your vote, or questions to the candidates? If you're looking for more
> information before you decide how you're going to vote, this is the forum
> for it. >>
>
> I thought the voting was ended? There's still time to vote?
The voting in the Comitia Centuriata goes through the 15th of September.
This deadline was extended by one market day to comply with the specific
provisions in the Lex Vedia de Ratione Centuriatorum Comitiaorum.
Vale,
Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re:California Provincia [Grumble!] |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:49:16 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/31/99 10:11:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< [felderkarp] >>
::blink blink:: Can it be?? Another Battelstar Galactica fan??? ::grin::
Priscilla Vedia Serena
|
| Subject: |
Doggone It! (Was Re: Cassius and the Tribes) |
| From: |
Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:57:45 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve, Sulla, et salvete omnes...
Sulla dixit, in re a boastful statement squirreled away in the Web
site's source code:
> it shows a lack of dignitas, by the Attack Poodle as some of us
> lovingly call Gangalius.
...et Fimbria respondet [lightly]:
Sulla...dear Sulla...how many times have I asked you in the last month
to please refrain from calling anyone an Attack Poodle who hasn't
earned the rank? Pepper would be most incensed! I beg you, in memory
of Pepper and out of respect for his bravery and devotion to duty, to
please find another nickname...and save 'Attack Poodle' for those who
really deserve it!
BTW, Rudi's not an only pooch anymore...his new roommate as of last
week is a 4-year-old male Cairn Terrier whom I adopted from a rescue
person. They're getting along splendidly--! >({|:-D ...now all he
needs is a name; anyone got any suggestions...?
Gone to the Dogs,
************************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |>[SPQR]<|
mka Märia Villarroel |\=/|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Roman Historical Re-Creationist `\*/, ``}`^~``,,, \ \
and Citizen of Nova Roma ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman... It's hard work, _|_| / _/_| /`(
but SOMEbody's gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'
|
