Subject:	Re: Gentes
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" n_moravius@--------
Date:	Sat, 18 Sep 1999 02:36:34 PDT

Salvete!

Querit Merullus:


>The notion that a p/m can hold the family members in the Gens against the
>members' will does not sound plausible to me, without hearing some
>as-yet-unheard rationale for it. If someone wishes/needs to leave a Gens,
>how would a p/m hold him/her within the Gens, and what would it mean to do
>so?

Respondeo: You had better ask Sulla that question.

The notion of holding someone in a Gens only perhaps make sense if the
>member desiring to leave is a minor, or otherwise defined by
>as-yet-non-existent leges Novae Romae, as someone unable to make his/her
>own
>decisions. Why does the holding notion otherwise make no sense to me?
><AMPUTATIO>My point
>here is that the growth of our gentes is by voluntary association, and that
>means, in my view, that voluntary disassociation is valid. People can quit
>gentes, as long as they understand that they lose their names and must seek
>out other gentes or found new ones.

Respondo: Again, I would agree with you. You had better ask Sulla again. And
the Censors.

Valete,

Vado.

Quod prudentis opus? Cum possis, nolle nocere.
Quid stulti propriam? Non posse et velle nocere.

(What is the work of the wise? Not to injure, though he can.
What is the property of a fool? To wish to injure, though he cannot).

- Decimus Maximus Ausonius (c. 310-395 CE).

Subject:	Re: Citizenship & Military Service
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" n_moravius@--------
Date:	Sat, 18 Sep 1999 04:22:24 PDT

Salvete iterum!

Murena asked, at some point in his debate with Iustus (which I'm unable to
trace), whther auxiliary soldiers ever received citizenship (and their
dependants, by extension) BEFORE completing their military service. Thought
this might be of interest:

(Source: LEWIS, N. & REINHOLD, M.: 'Roman Civilization Sourcebook II The
Empire' Harper, 1966, p.525):

"The Emperor Caesar Nerva Traian Augustus Germanicus Dacicus, son of the
deified Nerva, Pontifex Maximus, holding the tribunician power for the
fourteenth year, acclaimed Imperator six times, five times consul, father of
his country, has granted Roman citizenship before completion of military
service to the infantrymen and cavalrymen whose names appear below, serving
in the First British Thousand-Man Ulpian Decorated Loyal Fortunate Cohort
composed of Roman citizens, which is on duty in Dacia under Decimus
Terentius Scaurianus,for having dutifully and faithfully discharged the
Dacian campaign. August 11th., at Darnithithium(?) in the consulship of
Lucius Minicius Natalis and Quintus Silvanus Granianus.

TO INFANTRYMAN MARCUS ULIUS NOVANTICO SON OF ADCOBROVATUS, RATAEAN
(i.e., from Ratae = Leicester)(Lewis and Reinhold say that's Ratae in
Armorica (Brittany), but I doubt it, since the Ulpian is a small British
unit).

Certified copy taken from bronze tablet posted at Rome on the wall behind
the temple of the deified Augustus, near (the statue of)Minerva.

(Witnesses)Publius Cornelius Alexander; Lucius Pullius Verecundus; Publius
Atinius Amerimus; Gaius Tuticanius Saturninus; Lucius Pullius Trophimus;
Gaius Iulius Paratus; Marcus Iunius Eutychus."

- this diploma was found in Dacia, where Marcus Iulius Novantico presumably
settled after his discharge. Long way from Ratae, estne?

Valete bene,

Vado.

Subject:	Re: Roman Values -- correction
From:	"M. Papirius Justus" papirius@--------
Date:	Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:56:01 -0400

At 09:23 PM 17/09/1999 -0400, I wrote:
From: "M. Pap--------s Justus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
R.
By whom? Sempronia was the mother of two guys who tried to overthrow the
Republic. Fulvia was on the wrong side of the civil war. Hortensia was the
daughter of darling Cicero's chief rival. Do you think any of the sources
that have come down to us will give them positive press? At the same time,
however, do you neglect to remember that Sempronia was the recipient of a
statue in the forum because she *was* mother of the Gracchi? Again, the
paucity of our sources prevents us from making anything but vague
speculations in this regard.

Respondeo iterum:

As the astute have no doubt noticed, I was confusing Sempronia and Cornelia
in this one; that said, I'm wondering which one was being referred to by
Varro Murena ... the one who had married Scipio (and was included amongst
those accused of his murder; in passing we might note that it was a
childless marriage) or the mother of Fulvia ...

mpj
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