Subject:	Taxes
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 01:44:29 -0400 (EDT)

The subject has come up many times in NR and there have been some very
good schemes proposed, and outside of the fact that every other
organization that I have ever belonged to has had a registration fee to
help them with thier finances, then I can see the value of both sides of
the argument.

One of the factors that stopped the effort prior to the "Social Wars
(SW)" was the lack of a budget. The budget that I was working on was
overtaken by events, and just recently I was appointed as an Assistant
to Consul Palladius to resume that effort. There was little interest in
that work during the Dictatorship as there were many other items of more
importace and greater need. The Strawman #3 of the Budget is complete,
but there are questions which have arisen regarding the needs of the
Equestrians for developing further businesses to meet NR needs. My
particular business took a real hit as did everyone's as a result of the
SW and is just now getting back on line. It was not a thriving business
anyway, as the products were not primary or vital to NR, so I am behind
on catalog mail-outs and material orders as a result. The budget has to
be re-written and then submitted, That is in the process of being done.

Meanwhile, perhap I may make a suggestion about the fees from NR Members
out of the United States. I think that we all agree that the transfer
of currency from one country to another is difficult. I think that we
can all agree that the non-English speaking people do not get as much
out of this NR organization as those who do speak English. There are
some in NR who have some bad feelings toward Americans in general based
on the harsh words that they see here on the net, preconcieved notions
abou our country.and some of the actions we and our allies have taken
on the world's stage.

Let us show them that we have a feeling for them personnally. Let us
show them that they are valuable to us, let us show them some concrete
way to assure them of their welcome here, besides just words..

I respectfully propose that anyone living outside the U.S, be allowed to
join tax free, and maintain a citizenship tax free, so long as they
shall wish to remain. I further suggest that these individuals be taken
at their word, and as long as they wish they should remain members of
NR. If anyone outside of the U.S. wishes to cntribute financially, then
they can send a Traveler's Check to the Financial Quaestor..

Now I am sure that there willbe several immediate comments to this
proposal, but it solves several problems:

--It solves the international money exchange;
--It solves the problem of what we can do for those in foriegn countries
with tax funds;
--It solves the collection problem overseas;
--It gives those in other country a solid feeling that we are willing to
take up the slack in finances because we are willing to make a sacrifice
for them. If I know anything about the people of Europe,
Caribbean,,Pacific Basin South America, the Orient and Australia where I
have traveled, the few dollars that we will lose in this effort will be
repaid many times over in good will and in many other ways.

Cives, the people of the European and the other countries of the world
are good people. We must, if we wish this NR to be truly
international,, and I for one do, we must begin to take actions to break
down long held barriers, stop petty in-fighting and receive those who
are not as strong in English as we are with a generous and open hand.

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I meet a gentleman in
Brazill who owns and operates an 80 foot schooner that he built himself,
who speaks Portugese, Spanish, French, and English apologize to me
because his English is not very clear, I feel a little funny inside.
This is the kind of guy that I would like to have in this organization,
as he is vocal, a talented individual, a businessman, a leader, and some
one who is trying. Our Alexander is such a man. He is a part-time
college professor, a heating / air conditioning design engineer, and a
family man, as well as an avid Roman Historian. He has sent me more
information and reference ideas about his country, than you could buy
with minimal dues in three years. Another consideration is that there
are many from other cuntries who do not enjoy the same pay scales as we
do, and tat should be a strong item of cnsideration in this question.. .

I urge a full consideration of this proposal, and I would also invite
our friends in other countries to comment on it as well.

Marcus Municius Audens..

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: City Praetor
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:29:51 EDT

In a message dated 9/20/99 9:08:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a> writes:

<< (the term Praetor Urbanus is no longer used. It is simply
Praetor as provincial governors are all called propraetors. >>
Salve Decius Iunius
Praetor Urbanus (City Praetor) it was, so as far as I'm concerned it stays
that. My opponents can call the office what they wish.
Vale
Q. Fabius

Subject:	Re: Taxes
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 01:39:26 -0500 (CDT)

That's right--- Alexander is exactly the kind of person we need here.
The point is also well made that costs and wages are very different in
different places of the world, and I would hate to see good people
discouraged from joining N.R. because of any taxes, or other fees.

I would agree that with the exception for now of citizens from the
US, Canada, and Great Britain that any fees or yearly taxes be waved as
an inducement for truly international diversity. Nothing would please
me more than to see more citizens from Italy, Portugal, Spain , anywhere
in Latin America, Eastern Europe, or anywhere else outside the
traditional English speaking countries. I hope that in time like other
websights out there that we can have mirror sites in other languages and
more resources to handle all necessary translations. The language
barriers are going to be continual challenges that we need to address.
Too bad Esperanto never caught on as it only takes one-fifth the
necessary time supposedly as to learn any other foreign language. Wasn't
that heavy with Latin basics?


Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Re: City Praetor
From:	Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:51:23 -0400

Salvete!

scripsit Q. Fabius:

>Praetor Urbanus (City Praetor) it was, so as far as I'm concerned it stays

>that. My opponents can call the office what they wish.

"It was" - in Roma Antiqua, or in NR before the coup? In NR before the coup
it was Praetor Urbanis (gods help us). In Roma Antiqua the two judicial
praetors were Praetor Urbanus who dealt with lawsuits between citizen and
citizen and Praetor Peregrinus who dealt with lawsuits between citizen and
foreigner. I leave aside the special praetors created by Sulla to preside
over the quaestiones perpetuae, the criminal jury courts.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Language Barriers
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:57:47 -0400 (EDT)

Gaius Drusus Domitianus;

I tend to lump English speaking peoples together, but with Australia,
Canada and England you still have the problem of transmission of funds,
and the policing of such. I don't think we should get into that.
Cassius had a point early on, who wll do the job of collecting and
policing???. Why not just give it to them as well. We arn't going to
lose anything significant and I think we will reap more than we sew.

You mention how other organizations hae set up "mirror sites" for
languages other than English. I have not heard of them in hat context
before could you explain that further and perhaps give an example???

I am probably the worst person in the world to ask about foriegn
languages, but I believe that you are right about Esperanto. The
Spanish language is supposed to be one of the easiest languages to learn
and Engish and Russian among the hardest. I believe that I remember
from my school days discussion that Esperato borrowed heavily from Latin
base words and Latin roots.

Apparently you share my desire to get more international people on the
net. One of these mirror sites would (it sounds like) be a geat start.

Vale;
Marcus Audens.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Payment of taxes
From:	"from Joanne at work" sheberserker@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:18:44 CEST

>2. Different currencies are a BIG problem. Some currencies are >difficult,
>or >even impossible to exchange. Also, non-US Citizens >sending money here
>would >have a long delay in receiving Citizenship. >Possibly a month or
>two!

I know that I am not a member yet but as someone who is used to sending
money from Europe to the US, might I suggest the following?
In the event that Nova Roma charges "taxes" to its' citizens, people living
outside of the US can buy US dollar travellers checks and send them to the
US with only a few extra pennies extra fee. There is NO FEE to cash the
travellers check in the US. At Thomas Cook and American Express you can buy
one $10 or one $20 check (there is no minimum purchase amount necessary).

Joanne

Subject:	Re: Tax them till it hurts!!!
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:43:59 EDT

In a message dated 9/20/99 9:46:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> --------es:

Drusus:
LOL. We do need desperately to raise funding and at the same time be
able to tell who really remains with us. It kills two birds with one
stone.

Cassius:
Once the new budget is completed, we'll hopefully be on a system where Nova
Roma expenses are actually paid with NR funds, rather than by whoever happens
to be doing a particular job. As far as seeing who's still in Nova Roma, THAT
can be done simply by going through the Citizen's list and contacting people.
It's a project that's needed doing for a long time... and if some people
volunteer to be Censorial Scribes the task could be done pretty easily and
quickly.

Drusus:
> As to the issue of dealing in foreign currencies I think there's a
couple of options. One is keeping funds to be spent in a particular
area-- Britannia comes to mind offhand.

Cassius:
Are the financial rules/challenges different in Brittania than in the US? Can
anyone in Brittania actually give some info on this? Brittania would at least
have the advantage of having a good number of Citizens who are able to get
together in person...

Drusus:
There is also barter
possibilities, or a provincial governor could initially collect taxes in
exchange for goods bought online for use by the central N.R. government.

Cassius:
Possibly! The specifics would really have to be worked on though. I once
worked for a mail-order school which had some students in countries where
money couldn't be sent out... Russia and China for instance. Barter was
tried. While goods DID make it back and forth, it took forever and turned out
not to be a good deal in that particular situation. It was a lot of trouble,
and trying to estimate goods vs. US dollars was difficult. Also, goods simply
COST more in those countries than in the US, so the overseas folks were
getting a poor value.

Drusus:
I also wonder if there is any profit in buying uncleaned coins as
seen on auctions like ebay, having a few people clean them up and
reselling to a coin dealer??? It's a question of possible future income
for Nova Roma or for any potential hobbyists. Is that generally
worthwhile ever except for getting the obvious occasional rarer than
rare coin. I know ever so little about this and am really curious. Nova
Roma could use a small portion of its funds to invest in some kinds of
collectables or enterprises in the future.

Cassius:
Wow, if ever there was a question tailor-made for me, this was the one.
Thanks! :)

I am a dealer in ancient artifacts, and buy uncleaned Roman coins all fairly
often. You see a lot of deals about these things online, etc... they're the
latest craze. I've purchased a few lots of them and seen many more purchased
by other dealers. Usually they're a VERY poor deal. 99% of the coins always
turn out to be little slugs of metal with no detail, even after they've been
cleaned. I use these things to "fill out" my stock so that I've got more for
in person customers to look at... but they're just plain not saleable online
as individual pieces. To get coins with detail you have to pay a LOT... and
then you're into professional numismatics and dealing with customers who are
checking rate books for coin values with each sale, etc.

And, uncleaned coins ARE becoming a craze. You used to be able to buy them
for about 60 cents a coin... now they're up to $1.65 each and more. Most are
only sellable in the $3.00 range. (People love the CHANCE of an encrusted
coin being worth something, but once it's proven that's not the case the
value stays low.)

Still, there's profit there. However, there's work too. To clean the coins
you have to soak them for several days to a couple weeks in olive oil (which
goes rancid fairly quickly!) and then spend something like twenty minutes on
each coin to clean them by hand. The results after all the work are almost
*never* something you can sell to a professional coin dealer... although
they're fine for curious schoolkids/first time collectors who don't want to
spend much.

Anyway, for the cost/work to profit ratio, we'd probably be as well off
buying candy bars and selling them like children's sports teams so often do!
:P

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator

Subject:	Re: Tax them till it hurts!!!
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 07:57:23 -0500

On 21 Sep 99, --------:43, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------; wrote:

> and if some people
> volunteer to be Censorial Scribes the task could be done pretty easily and
> quickly.

I actually thought I could do the job. It doesn't look like it would dig
into my "Mommy" time too much. However, I don't have the
program and Germanicus doesn't like me anyway.

Crys

Subject:	Re: Tax them till it hurts!!!
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:56:05 +0100

Salve Cassi

Could you answer my new lex proposal ASAP?

Vale

Antonius Gryllus Graecus

Subject:	Re: Re: Proposed Magistrate Law
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:00:05 +0100

Salve Praetor Saevola et omnes

I'm planning to ammend my proposed Lex de Accumulatione Magistraturarum in
order to enforce the cursus honorum. Of course it cannot be exactly as
stated by the leges of ancient Rome, but it should force the political
cereer to start from below, i.e. Aedilship or Questorship.

Valete

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Tribunus Plebis

Subject:	Re: The First British Etcetera
From:	greenjacket@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:18:27 -0400

Greetings,
It is interesting that just this past week I had built and painted
an auxiliary shield that is possibly representative of Cohors I Brittonum
Milliaria Ulpia Torquata p.f. c.R.
I went with a red base color and the designs from top to bottom are as
follows.
Unit name tag
Eagle
Wreath
She-wolf with Romulus and Remus
Name tag
I think that the use of the eagle and she-wolf, both very Roman
items would have been a mark of a unit that had received citizenship, and
the use of the wreath on the shield probably meant the award of torquata
to the unit. This basic shied design appaers on Trajan's Column.
On the back I painted various deities of a personal nature.It
actually came out rather good!
While auxiliary units could be granted citizenship for valour, men
joining after the award would probably still have to await their
discharge, as with other units to get theirs.
Tiberius Flavius Saturninus

___________________________________________________________________
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Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: <a href="http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj" target="_top" >http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj</a>.

Subject:	Re: City Praetor
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:19:05 -0400

Salvete Cives

Si non fractum nolite id reparare

Or something like that. My head hurts, so that's the best that I can do. I
have to agree with Fabius. It may be a little confusing that there are
different flavors of praetor, but it is no more confusing than trying to
explain the capital "G"'s, lack of "J" et cetera.

In my (dead) translation of the old (dead) constitution, I used rector as a
generic term for the magistrate governing a province. The title to use with
a particular rector varies according to which (if any) offices the
individual holds or has just recently held in the central administration.
It's a little confusing, but no big deal.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
>

>Salve Decius Iunius
>Praetor Urbanus (City Praetor) it was, so as far as I'm concerned it stays
>that. My opponents can call the office what they wish.
>Vale
>Q. Fabius
>

Subject:	Re: Language Barriers
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:27:09 -0400

Salvete Gaie Druse et Marce Minuci et alii

Esperanto instead of Latin? What's next, disposable cardboard Lares et
Penates?

Like Latin, Esperanto is a foreign language to everyone. Unlike Latin, it
was not spoken and written by the very people whose Republic we seek to
re-build, it was never (or at least, oh so rarely) spoken to the Gods in
worship.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


>From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
>

>I am probably the worst person in the world to ask about foriegn
>languages, but I believe that you are right about Esperanto. The
>Spanish language is supposed to be one of the easiest languages to learn
>and Engish and Russian among the hardest. I believe that I remember
>from my school days discussion that Esperato borrowed heavily from Latin
>base words and Latin roots.
>
>Apparently you share my desire to get more international people on the
>net. One of these mirror sites would (it sounds like) be a geat start.

Subject:	Re: Re: Language Barriers
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:38:51 -0400 (EDT)

R. Merrullo

In speaking of Esperanto, I apologize for not making myself clear. I
was responding to the remark that another correspondent threw out about
the regret that Esperanto had not caught on. It was my understading
that it was a manufactured language developed in the 1930's-40's for the
purpose of common communication between different languages. That and
my former comments are about all I know about the subject but would be
willing to recieve further details on the topic by private mail. as this
subject is rapidly approaching off-list data.

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Re: Proposed Magistrate Law
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:06:58 -0400 (EDT)

Mucius Scraeola Magister;

In your comment " the requirement for for 10 years military service is
not reasonable" may not be accurate. There are several ex-miitary men
in this organization to which such a requirement would apply. Cut the
requirement from 10 years to two years, and expand the field of service
to appointed positions within NR or appointed or elected positions in
other similar organizations. Local city government, re-enactment units
, youth organizations, other volunteer organizations in which the
candidate has held a position of responsibility, chairmen, board
members, officers, etc. After all the basic idea is to season people in
the experience of service in order to provde them with the basic
Leadership tools. Those tools and that service experience can be gained
from many organizations.

Vale and With Respect;
Marcus Minucus Audens

Subject:	Re: Re: The First British Etcetera
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:13:59 -0400 (EDT)

To the Royal Scots Fusiliers perhaps, but to the 42n Regiment of Foot
--Royal Highland Regiment (Black Watch) NEVER!!!!

Marcus Audens
(aka: Lt. Ian McKay, Adjutant and detached Asst. Crown Engineer to the
Black Watch Regiment)

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Taxes
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:24:37 -0400 (EDT)

In regard to taxes, I too was contributing an amount of financial
support on a quarterly basis. I decided upon this activity after a
discussion with the then Consul Cinncinnatus. His discussion point was
that elected magistrates should be contributors in financial dealings as
well as political ones. I liked the idea and it lasted until the
"Social Wars: when I stopped. I will not resume the practice until the
organizaton is settled, to insure that the happenings of the past will
not occur again. I offer my services such as they are for the benefit
of NR, but that is the present limitation of my input until the rules
are inplace vesting those elected officials with the powers of the
Incorporation.

Marcus Miucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Taxes (was 55 votes?)
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:11:50 -0400 (EDT)

G. Tarquinas Caesar

Vale, Citizen;

In regard to your suggestion for the Equites Ordu to support NR. it has
been happening all along to a lesser extent than you indicate. Prior to
the "Social War" there were several vendors in NR. These vendors agreed
to provide from 5%--to--15% of their net profit to NR, and they did so.
While I was a Quaestor, I reviewed the Financial Reports and while the
relative sums were fairly modest they were steady. The "Social Wars"
put a heavy damper on to that aspect of the idea about providing NR
with a persentage of the profit. This was the basis of Cassius'
objecton to taxation. He proposed that we build the Ordu Equite system
and eventually we would have the monry we needed to repay some of those
people now gone who had contributed to the financil coffers o NR. Hs
idea was a good one, however, I opposed it because of the time factor
that I believe it would have been required to get to the poin of taxes.
My approach was to levy taxes, dues, whatever you wish to call them and
then as the Ordu Q=Equites approached that required sums, reduce the
"taxes" accordingly and let the profit -sharing pick up the financial
burden.

Since the Social Wars there are only two businesses left. Mine and
Cassius' Cassius is having some trouble with some of the products
offered and in my case, the products are not necessarily desired by the
membership. This was due to my not doing a marketing study prior to the
launching of my busness, and the failure to provide a web-site from
which to operate. My business is higglety-pigglety at the present time
nd I am behind in Catalog mailings and in providing new product
offerings. I guess I am not much of a business man, but Cassius and a
couple of other people are bringing me along.

My recommendation would still be to levy taxes, dues. registration fees,
what ever titles you wish in order to cmplete the budget now being
formed. That rate of dues would be reduced by any old or new businesses
that would start up. I would further offer free advertisement in the
Eagle to all NR business's and provide a six-month period fr new
business' to develop products and clientele before requesting their
percentage of profit to add to the NR Financia Income. There has to be
an incentive for people to go into business in this NR and the business
cannot be restricted to NR alone due to the small number of active
citizens.

Thak you for the opportunity to discourse on this topic at length;

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Attn: political message re Marcus Minucius Audens stands for Praetor Urbanus.
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:17:45 -0400

Salvete Cives

I put the "Attn" tag in the subject line to indicate that this is a
political message related to the campaign for Praetor. Whoever dislikes
political messages may want to delete this.

M Minucius Audens is to be praised louder than the sum of his excellent
qualifications that he provided in his announcement.

Audens is a doer, a person that does not stop at coming up with a good idea
and announcing it in the forum. He goes further than that by turning his
thought into action. The best example of that, I think, is his budget
before the Senate's consideration. He identified a need to provide for Nova
Roma's revenues, polled the citizenry in the forum on whether it was
desirable to submit a proposal to the Senate on instituting taxes, and set
about to do that. Another example is the Eagle; he has for quite some time
provided a large part of its material, and in the wake of the resignation of
the previous editor, quickly picked up the operation and preserved this
vital NR institution for all of us.

Whereas some men of action tend to trample over the backs of others in
furthering their agenda, Audens listens to all sides of the argument and
weighs carefully his own duties and the needs and queries of citizens,
paying full attention both to long-standing NR personalities and newbies
alike. He maligns noone, but stands firmly for the causes in which he
believes, no matter how loud, eloquent, voluminous or downright intimidating
the voices of those opposed to those causes.

I would also like to point out that Audens did not enter Nova Roma as a
patrician, as the rest of us did by virtue of the timing of the
establishment of our gentes. He is the only Nova Roman, to my knowledge, to
have been specially elevated from plebeian to patrician status. Surely the
gods must love and favor a man to make such a great thing happen.

I urge all my fellow citizens to give M Minucius Audens the opportunity to
apply his vast experience and knowledge to building our nation.

Vivat Nova Roma

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus



>From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
>
>Salvete, NR Citizens;
>
>I, Marcus Minucius Audens, Patrician, Paterfamilius Gens Minucia,
>Tribunius Militum Laticlaviois, Commander of the Sodalitas Militum,
>Legatus Civicus of the Area of Connecticut in the NorthEast United
>States, former Quaestor and present special assistant to the Consul
>Palladius for Budget and Situation Survey and the NR Editor of Eagle
>hereby announce and declare my intention to stand for the offce of
>Praetor Urbanus

Subject:	Re: Tax them till it hurts!!!
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:21:47 EDT

In a message dated 9/21/99 6:52:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> writes:

<<
Could you answer my new lex proposal ASAP?
>>

Egads, Graecus... I answered your Lex proposal to the Senate last night.
Didn't it come through??? If not let me know and I'll resend the moment I
hear from you.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Re: 55 votes?
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:27:15 -0400 (EDT)

A. Chrystalina;

Your comment that neither you nor your husband had voted for good
reason, raises the possibility, that others did not vote "for good
reason" as well All in NR have the right and ability to abstain from
voting for a variety of reasons, and several have already been covered:

--Dislike for the candidate;
--Voting not necessary because a single candidate will be automatically
elected;
--Showing dislike for the laws recetly passed in the only way open to
them;
--Dislike for those supporting the candidate;
--Not interested in political elections;
--Not interested in participation.

Any one of the above is a viable personal reason for not voting. While
NR deplores these kind of reasons, they wll continue until the members
of NR see each other as brothers and sisters and not as opponents. When
a hurtful situation can be put behnd us, and we can stretch out our hand
to apologize and to accept such, even though our egos demand otherwise.

Even with the above list of reasons, as a gentleman reported, the voting
percentage was above that of the U.S. National Voting average
percentage. It is probably far better than that when we find out just
exactly how many people we have in NR. A census is being udertaken at
this time of NR and the results will give us a much better picture of
the true percentage of involvement.

Respectfully
Marcus Audens .

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Re: 55 votes?
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:42:32 -0500

On 21 Sep 99, at 13:27, James Mathews wrote:

>
> Even with the above list of reasons, as a gentleman reported, the voting
> percentage was above that of the U.S. National Voting average percentage.
> It is probably far better than that when we find out just exactly how many
> people we have in NR. A census is being udertaken at this time of NR and
> the results will give us a much better picture of the true percentage of
> involvement.
>
> Respectfully
> Marcus Audens .

My dearest Audens,

I thank you. Your explanation was well taken. I can always count
on you!!

Amethystia Iunia Crystallina

Subject:	Re: Taxes (Long!)
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" n_moravius@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:37:35 PDT

Salvete!

IMHO, much good sense has been communicated with regard to non-US citizens
and tax exemption (see extracts below).

Not that I am advocating taxation per se, as I see excellent arguments
proposed by those both for and against it. It is, I believe, a complex and
problematic issue (as Gaius Marius Merullus and M Cassius Iulianus have
clearly demonstrated), and not a matter to be decided upon without careful
deliberation and full debate. Having said all that...

Obviously, ALL native Anglophones get much more from NR as it is at present
than anyone else does; so, IF US and Canadian cives should pay taxes, then
so, I feel, should we Brits.

I agree that currency exchange is a potential headache, but as Gaius Drusus
Domitianus has suggested, Britannia's taxes could remain in a British
account, specifically to fund the expenses of Provincia Britannia
(recruitment, website development, public events, etc.).

For the record, then, I would be willing to administer such a fund as a sort
of Quaestor Provinciae Britanniae, reporting to the central NR Treasury.
Hope this helps.

Valete bene,

N. Moravius Vado

Leg. Brit. Merid.

>Scripsit M Cassius Iulianus
>"1. Collecting taxes and maintaining a tax roll would be a large, high
>maintenance job. ----
>2. Different currencies are a BIG problem. Some currencies are difficult,
>or
>even impossible to exchange. .
>3. We'd also of course run into people who just couldn't pay any kind of
>tax
>at all, would be looking for exemptions, etc. Would we have to evaluate
>people's claims to poverty, write up a tax code?
>Merullus:
> >In my opinion, taxes would be sensible only to cover real expenses that
>are
> planned, and for which there is insufficient income from the macellum and
> ordo equester. Audens' efforts seemed to be yielding a coherent case on
> taxes, but the budgetary consultum was rescinded for some reason.
>
>Cassius:
>The budgetary consultum was *not* rescinded. It was pre-empted by the
>Social
>War before it could be completed, and I believe it is in the works again.
>Palladius just posted about the new budget to the Senate, I believe.
>
>That aside, we probably ought to have at least *some* money besides what is
>needed for day to day expenses.

>Merullus:
> > If we need money to pay for the website, the chat room et cetera, by all
> means, let's have the Senate show us the revenues, the projected expenses
> and levy a tax accordingly. I'll pay then for sure.
>
>Cassius:
>That information should be coming out in the new budget. Right now the only
>reason why Nova Roma hasn't run into financial trouble is because various
>magistrates have been shouldering nearly all the costs... I myself paid for
>the website for something like 15 months, and just donated the costs of
>printing the latest issue of "The Eagle". Because of such actions Nova Roma
>currently has a bit over $600 in it's bank account. However, as most
>international organizations go, that's very little indeed.
>Cassius:
>Certainly the corporate stuff would have to be solved before any sort of
>taxation could be seriously considered. I don't believe the one thing could
>be done before the other in any case.
>Cassius:
>I AM for it, but believe it shouldn't be attempted until the basic
>logistics
>are completely solved.
>Cassius again:
> > 2. Different currencies are a BIG problem. Some currencies are
>difficult,
> or even impossible to exchange. .
>
>Cassius:
>Again, we simply need to find out HOW to do this. Other groups manage.
> As to the issue of dealing in foreign currencies I think there's a
>couple of options. One is keeping funds to be spent in a particular
>area-- Britannia comes to mind offhand. There is also barter
>possibilities, or a provincial governor could initially collect taxes in
>exchange for goods bought online for use by the central N.R. government.
<AMPUTATIO>> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>Meanwhile, perhap I may make a suggestion about the fees from NR Members
>out of the United States. I think that we all agree that the transfer
>of currency from one country to another is difficult. I think that we
>can all agree that the non-English speaking people do not get as much
>out of this NR organization as those who do speak English<AMPUTATIO>>
>I respectfully propose that anyone living outside the U.S, be allowed to
>join tax free, and maintain a citizenship tax free, so long as they
>shall wish to remain>Gaius Drusus Domitianus;
>
>I tend to lump English speaking peoples together, but with Australia,
>Canada and England you still have the problem of transmission of funds,
>and the policing of such. I don't think we should get into that.

Subject:	Re: Re: Taxes (Long!)
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:27:53 -0400 (EDT)

To: Nickolaus Monrovius;

Well that solves one problem as an Asst. Financial Quaetor for Britain.
Now we would need one for Canada and Australia as well.

Let's say that we agree on a twenty-five dollar fee for NR taxes. For
the current list of the NR members I believe there is one menber in
Australia, 6 or seven in Britain and one or two in Canada. Considering
the establishment of a set of Quaestors for English speaking countries,
especially those three, it would be simpler to mail Traveler's checks to
one Quaestor here in the states. Using the above tax figure that would
be approximately $200 to $250 a significant amount for the treasury,but
also a significant amount to grant our "out of the U.S." friends in
non-english speaking countries. Those people in the non-english
speaking countries who do speak English could set their own reasonable
dues (taxes, etc.) based on a sliding scale of economic restitution in
tht particular country.

The investment aspect of the budget, in order to begin to provide income
for NR, should be decided in fairly short order. It is this element
that should yield us some profit in the years to come, bu the decisions
mut be made o collect funds so that we may look into the investment
possibility. We need to liven up the Ordo Equestrian potential shop
keepers and gin up a variety of ideas for people wishing to indulge.
Venator has done a Mead Manual. There is a Roman Culture Reference List
under construction. How about a business that translates English
messges into different languages, for a small fee. How about some
suggestions from the membership that they would like to see on the list
for purchase, as well as ideas for new products or new businesses..

The offer of your services Vado was extremely generous and I thank you
for such on behalf of NR. These are the offers that we need to push
forward ad address the problems / opportunities that face us.

Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens;...

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Attn: political message re Marcus Minucius Audens stands for P...
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:28:12 EDT

In a message dated 9/21/99 10:20:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:

<< He is the only Nova Roman, to my knowledge, to
have been specially elevated from plebeian to patrician status. Surely the
gods must love and favor a man to make such a great thing happen. >>

Salve Gaius Marius Merullus,
Actually I was so elevated as well. The Fabian Gens became a Patrician clan
only after Vedius promoted it.
Vale Q. Fabius
The other magistrate running for Praetor Urbanus.

Subject:	Taxes
From:	Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:37:01 -0400

Salvete omnes,

To respond to the query about payments from non-US provinciae, I have been
paying a monthly sum into the Eagle account run in Britain by Aprica. Like
Audens, this was in response to a suggestion made by Cincinnatus some time
ago that magistrates should, as in Roma Antiqua, contribute out of their
own resources. (I think I only got it together to start round the time of
the coup and though, like Audens and Merullus, I am concerned about the
modern legal position, I haven't told my bankers to stop (knowing Barclays,
the result would be double payments).)

I have assumed that the money will accumulate in this account and that
periodically Aprica will remit funds to NR by money order when there's
enough to justify the cost. This seems to me to be the easiest way to
handle exchange costs. I don't think much of the trav. cheques idea - send
them countersigned and you might as well post cash, send them signed once
and they're uncashable without forging the signature.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Re: Taxes (Long!)
From:	Steven Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:51:57 -0700

Salvete Omnes!

James Mathews alias Marcus Minucius Audens wrote: (a nice lead in for me.)
>
> Venator has done a Mead Manual.
>

Of which I still have several dozen copies of the special Nova Roma First
Edition.

Copies are finally on their way to the recently contacted gentlemen. Work's
been crazy lately and I'll be able to get to the post office tomorrow for
the first time in some little while.

If you'd like a copy, for yourself or a friend who might be interested in
making mead---

Send a check for US$8.00 to Steven P. Robinson, PMB 257, 7431 East State
St., Rockford, IL 61108-2678
$5.00 will be held in escrow for Nova Roma and $3.00 is for postage and
handling. I'm absorbing the actual cost of production, so our nation has
already received that value from me. I have copies ready to mail. Overseas
Cives, e-mail me, we'll work something out to get you a copy.

In Amicus - Venator

Subject:	Re: Tax them till it hurts!!!
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:47:11 EDT

In a message ----------------21/99 8:52:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=230166014180193192112218004036129208" >famromo@--------</a>
writes:

<< I actually thought I could do the job. It doesn't look like it would dig
into my "Mommy" time too much.>>

That is a definite plus!

<<However, I don't have the program>>

Ya can *get* the program. :)

<<and Germanicus doesn't like me anyway.>>

Don't be so certain of that.....LOL

Serena
>>