Subject:	Re: Attn: political message re Marcus Minucius Audens stands for Praetor Urbanus.
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:14:57 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, RMerullo wrote:

> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
> Salvete Cives
>
> I put the "Attn" tag in the subject line to indicate that this is a
> political message related to the campaign for Praetor. Whoever dislikes
> political messages may want to delete this.
>
> M Minucius Audens is to be praised louder than the sum of his excellent
> qualifications that he provided in his announcement.
>
> I urge all my fellow citizens to give M Minucius Audens the opportunity to
> apply his vast experience and knowledge to building our nation.


Salve G. Mari Merulle,

You are quite right, M. Minucius Audens is far too modest about his
abilities. He is one of the most capable people we have in Nova Roma and
his administrative abilities are second to none in our Republic. He
has responded to the call to serve Nova Roma as capably, honorably and
willingly as he served the United States Navy. He can do many tasks at
the same time and do them well. Not only has he served in a official
capacity as military tribune, quaestor and currently as Editor of the
Eagle and as my consular budgetary accensus (assistant) but
he lends a helping hand to any who ask. For example his replies on the
list to questions are complete, well thought out and unfailingly polite.
He has set an example for many of us to follow. I agree with you that he
should be given the opportunity to serve Nova Roma as praetor and hope the
voters agree.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Co-Consul of Nova Roma


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus

Subject:	Announcement
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:45:18 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete!

As quite a few of you know already--but most do not--I am getting
married a week from Saturday, on October 2. For a few days before the
2nd my online time will be minimal and from the **2nd through the 10th**
I will be on my honeymoon in Florida (between hurricanes I hope) and quite
unavailable. :)

The ballot for the upcoming election will be published in an edict late on
Monday the 27th at which time no more candidacies may be announced. There
will also be a number of laws on the ballot that will be voted on. I will
be preparing those with my co-consul and other magistrates over the next
few days to present to you on that ballot. I will be here when the ballot
is published in an edict and I will be back when the vote is completed but
when the comitia centuriata is convened on October 4 to commmence
voting, it will be convened solely by my capable colleague, Consul Lucius
Cornelius Sulla. During that time any consular questions should be directed
to him.

I am currently training a censorial scribe who should be able to prevent
me from having a backlog when I return, or at least I will have a
managable backlog.


Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul of Nova Roma


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus

Subject:	Re: Taxes
From:	hadji hadji@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:35:22 +0200

Salve Atticus,

Well said. I agree. That is my opinion too.
The only compromise for taxes in different countries could be done is
for the taxes value. Romans had also had different taxes in regard to
economy possibilities in a given province.
For example avarage annual income in central european countries as
Czech, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland is from 2400 to 3600 $. The other
south-eastern countries (Roumania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Macedonia and
Albania) have it about 800 to 2200 $. So , I think taxes must pay
everyone, but the taxes value must be different and a part of these
taxes must stay in a given province for the its own purposes.

Valete

Alexander Probus

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 10:53:08 -0300
From: "Martins-Esteves" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=070059114056017198090218141036129208" >esteves@--------</a>
Subject: Re: Taxes
<I am sure that you, Audens, have the best intentions with your
<proposal,but I honestly think that the problem of transfering currency
<is not so big,and that every cives indistinctly in the world must pay
<taxes, if it must be so. If some nationality has the obligation and the
<right to pay taxes, all others must pay it too. Everyone must have the
<right to say: ' I am a tax payer '.

Subject:	money orders and stuff
From:	"from Joanne at work" sheberserker@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:12:10 CEST

Hi there Crys,

>What about money orders? Made out to Nova Roma in whatever
>dollar amount each country decides on (deuch marks, ruppees,
>dollars, francs, whatever). Then sent to the nearest countrys
>accountholder. Or just sent to the US and deposited, exchange
>rate be damned <G>.

Money orders that are written in a currency other that ones local currency
are very expensive and hard to get in some parts of Europe. For example:I
live in belgium. If I need a money order in US dollars, i would have to pay
about 15USD for it. So if I am sending 10 dollars to the US, I pay a total
price of 25dollars.....
On the other hand, Amex travellers check charge a 1% fee which means that
when I send $10, I pay a total amount of $10.10.
I know this subject is a bit boring! I have been working in International
banks since 1985....
Warmest regards,
Joanne

Subject:	Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:42:02 -0500

Salvete,

OK, OK, so money orders aren't the greatest idea. I get it now.
Thanks Joanne!

What about fees instead of taxes. Won't the US government have
a fit if we get tax exempt status and yet charge taxes?

How about fees instead of taxes. There could be, say a donation
to Nova Roma for something. I hesitate to say for prayers to the
gods (as I myself would owe thousands for the Augur Dex <G>)
because I do not believe the gods can be bought. Perhaps
something else can be arranged.

What to charge fees for??? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

How about:

1. Running for office
2. Applications (a fee for both minors and adults unless the minors
are family to citizens and a fee for starting your own gens. Maybe
this is the way to weed out the serious from the not-so-serious)
3. Certificates (perhaps some of our office holders and priests
would like a nice certificate to hang from the wall behind their
monitor?)

Just another money making suggestion.

Crys

P.S Which reminds me. I received a 2 year subscription to the
Eagle about a year ago (when calling me penniless would have
been generous). I would like to give the second year back and ask
Audens to please let me know where to send my subscription and
where to send it to. I also would like to resend pictures of Lapis
and the little thank you article I prepared before the "Social Wars"
(I think they are being called). I will never get the hand written
notes out at the rate I am going and I have to thank so many. I will
also post the article (or ask Audens to) to this list or to the Via
Trames (as it will likely reek of sentimentality). Would that be OK
Audens?

Crys (again)

Subject:	Re: Taxes
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:41:03 EDT

In a message dated 9/22/99 11:23:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:

<< No-one has mentioned yet how collecting money might affect our tax exempt
status in the U. S. -- is that not a problem?
>>

Salvete,

It shouldn't be. Virtually all nonprofit organizations collect dues from
their membership. Nonprofit doesn't mean the organization can't have money -
it simply means that any money taken in over and above operating costs is
accounted for in a slightly different way. No bonus pay for CEO's, etc. I
believe! ;) There are several books out on handling this for nonprofit
organizations, and before any such plan were to be implemented we'd certainly
want to be sure about all the rules, accounting practices, etc. I seem to
remember that a yearly full accounting must be made public or some such...
yet another subject to read up on!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Name changes
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:49:32 -0500

Salvete,

As a symbol of our new start my husband and I have (with out
Paters permission, of course) changed our names.

I will now be known as Amethystia Iunia Crystallina Materna.
Don will be known as Gaius Iunius Placidus. (we will try to be
good and not have too big a problem with "C" being used in place
of "G" <G>)

Terry and Lapis will not undergo any name changes.

Our 2 older boys will also be joining Nova Roma. We have not
worked the kinks out of their names, but they will also join the Iunia
Gens.

I wish to publicly thank my Paterfamilias for not breaking up our
family, welcoming my husband, welcoming my step-sons and
helping to choose our new names.

Crys (I could never give that part of my name up <G>)

Subject:	Re: Re: Taxes
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:59:07 +0100

Salvete

Can/Could Nova Roma accept credit card payment, e.g. to pay the Eagle and
other Macellum articles?

Valete

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Senator et Magistratus

Subject:	ATTN: Antonius Gryllus Graecus out for presentation and holidays
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:37:49 +0100

Salvete cives Novi Romani

I'm going to depart today and I shall be back on October 26.

Tomorrow, as Propraetor Provinciae Lusitaniae, I'm going to present Nova
Roma at the 3rd Congress of Peninsular Archaeology, Vila Real, Portugal.
Legata Emilia Camuna Britania is the chief organiser. Hope that that the
Gods will help me to make good recruitment there =).
I will later put my poster presentation in the Lusitania Web site.

Valete omnes et Dis Romani vobiscum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Senator et Magistratus

Subject:	Re: ATTN: Antonius Gryllus Graecus out for presentation and holidays
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:48:43 +0100

Salvete

A mistake =)
I'll be back on October 6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Valete


-----Original Message-----
From: Antonio Grilo <amg>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, September 23, 1999 2:42 PM
Subject: [novaroma] ATTN: Antonius Gryllus Graecus out for presentation and
holidays


>From: "Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
>
>Salvete cives Novi Romani
>
>I'm going to depart today and I shall be back on October 26.
>
>Tomorrow, as Propraetor Provinciae Lusitaniae, I'm going to present Nova
>Roma at the 3rd Congress of Peninsular Archaeology, Vila Real, Portugal.
>Legata Emilia Camuna Britania is the chief organiser. Hope that that the
>Gods will help me to make good recruitment there =).
>I will later put my poster presentation in the Lusitania Web site.
>
>Valete omnes et Dis Romani vobiscum
>
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>Senator et Magistratus
>
>
>>

Subject:	Re: Re: Taxes
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:50:36 -0400 (EDT)

I am really not sure what is entailed in gettig a Credit Card payment
system. I know there are some fairly small busnesses using such, and
others that I know are not, becase their feeling that they are too
expensive.

I am also not sure what the requirements are to acquire such. I ask
Marcus Cassius Julianus as a businessman, have you looked into this
payment method and if you have what is the cost and rules??. If not can
you direct me to someone who may have the information?

The Credit Card may be a partial answer to the transfer of funds between
countries. I know that the major credit cards are honored almost
everywhere in the world, but I am not sure about any out-of-country fees
that may be levied.

Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Re: Taxes
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:37:31 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete, Citizens of Nova Roma;

I have mailed the August Issue of the Eagle today. I apologize for the
lateness of the mailing, but the plan was overtaken by events. However
there is a silver linng in all this, in that the printing and postage
did not cost Nova Roma anything and that is a saving of about $25.00
with $2.00 to $3.00 thrown in for postage. The printer, our own Marcus
Cassius Julianus, also contributed a middle page to the newsletter, for
which I am most appreciative. Thank you Cassius!!!!

In regard to subscripton fees. The subscription fees that were settled
upon in the last few months was $12.00 American. Checks should be made
out to Nova Roma. Previous checks made out to myself have been cashed
and another check for the same amount has been sent to the Financial
Quaestor. There are two members of NR who have sent checks to me for
less than that amount. Both amounts indicate that the checks were
written based on the discussion of such and not the final decision. I
ask that those two individuals contact me by private mail and appraise
me of your preferences.

The current subscription number of Eagle is 49. In the next three
months this will be reduced by 6 as the current subscriptons run out.
If you question where your subscription stands, a personal E-Mail to me
will return the pertinent information to you..

Aprica will you please contact me in this regard??

I re-iterate again the need for articles for the Eagle. When I took
this job I was under no illusions about support from the citizens as it
is the third such effort, that I have undertaken. However the problem
is that an unsupported editor, tends to move toward the material that
interests him / her for a variety of reasons With my experience I will
resist that temptation, but it would be beneficial for those in Nova
Roma to consider some sort of input; it is after all your publication.
Current ly the Eagle is running an average of 5 to 7 articles (Two Main
feature articles and 3 to 5 information features)..

There have been several articles on the net of late which are very
interesting. I have been thinking about copying them into the Eagle,
but I will certainly need the authors permission, What do you think of
that idea?? I would also request a short article from the Consuls
explaining the government action before the Senate and the other
Magistrates Offices on a monthly basis. I would also like to ask the
Censors to provide the names and E-Mail addresses of the Nova Roma
Citizanry for the various provinces so that the Praetors of those
provinces will have a working knowledge of who is there. This material
would be published for the update of everyone's address book.

I thank you for your kind attention to this report.

Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Editor Eagle

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:51:54 -0400

Salvete Crystallina et alii

I think that the idea of bought NR certificates dovetails well with the
concept of an incentive program for encouraging donations.

Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar and others have suggested that people earn some
sort of recognition by contributing certain amounts of funds (either being
enrolled in an ordo equester -- not to be confused with the ordo equester
that we already sort of have -- by paying 25 bucks, or being listed
somewhere on the website with an honorary title based on the magnitude of
the donation). I think that issuing a real, attractive certificate with
some of the graphics that were to be featured in some of the other potential
NR products, with an honorary title or something, would provide a nice
additional incentive to donate funds.

Also of interest is the idea that you mention of some kind of "bond" or
payment by incoming magistrates. But this is something to treat carefully.
We don't want people to buy offices. I therefore would recommend that we
steer clear of having candidates pay anything during the campaign. If we
really are as broke as some suggest (it is impossible to be precise about
this without real numbers publically posted of course), then it may make
sense to have mandatory contributions to the treasury from incoming
magistrates. But that's kind of a last-ditch measure, don't you think? It
will be unfair to the magistrates to make them pay for the rest of us. That
is why we need the Senate to pass a budgetary consultum, the sooner the
better, so that we can all understand where we stand financially and take
appropriate action.

Less unfair is to apply your idea of a certificate award to those
magistrates who pay for it. As an example, the winner of a future campaign
for Praetor has the option of paying, say, $75, to receive a certificate
that says Primus Secundus Manlius Praetor Novae Romae AUC XXXXX, or
whatever, with the flag image and/or the Iuppiter or other image; or not,
in which case he serves as Praetor without the pretty piece of paper.

I remain optimistic about the possibility of funding NR without imposed
taxes or other forced payments, probably because I was donating money to NR
at one time. If I do it, I see no reason that others won't.

As far as the US government goes, I have a question for our newly elected,
but still lacking imperium consul:

Can ANYONE (corporation, individual, not-for-profit or any other entity)
legally collect taxes on US territory, other than the federal government, or
a local or state administration?

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus



>From: "Don an--------ys Meaker" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=230166014180193192112218004036129208" >famromo@--------</a>
>

>What about fees instead of taxes. Won't the US government have
>a fit if we get tax exempt status and yet charge taxes?
>
>How about fees instead of taxes. There could be, say a donation
>to Nova Roma for something. I hesitate to say for prayers to the
>gods (as I myself would owe thousands for the Augur Dex <G>)
>because I do not believe the gods can be bought. Perhaps
>something else can be arranged.
>

>3. Certificates (perhaps some of our office holders and priests
>would like a nice certificate to hang from the wall behind their
>monitor?)
>
>Just another money making suggestion.
>

>
>Crys (again)
>

Subject:	Re: Service Qualification for Magistracies
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" n_moravius@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:09:32 PDT

Salvete!

Just for the record, I am NOT advocating that Nova Roma become a military
gerontocracy after the Spartan model.

In response to the various criticisms of what I thought was a perfectly
realistic and reasonable proposal by M. Minucius Audens that our magistrates
should actually have some prior organisational experience, I'd like to offer
this:

It is true that military service, no matter how distinguished, does not
necessarily indicate political or administrative ability: as has been
pointed out, F. D> Roosvelt had none (but he did have lots of other
experiential qualifications of the sort that Audens and I suggested were
good equivalents).

Conversely, General Ulysses (aka 'Useless') S. Grant had a distinguished
military career but was a dismal President. The Duke of Wellington was a
brilliant soldier but a poor British Prime Minister.
I once worked with a Lieutenant Commander RN who got his rank through being
a whizz database manager and an MSc in Computing. As a Naval officer he left
a lot to be desired (he never got a sea appointment despite his promotion
from Lieutenant in the 6 years I worked with him).

You can always find exceptions to a rule, though. What I'm saying is that,
in general terms, being able to survive a career in the Armed Forces, OR
running your own business, OR having held an executive office in some other
voluntary organisation similar to NR is a good indication that you can work
with people, take responsibility for your actions and are able to do more
than organise an orgy in a lupanaria (whorehouse) next door to a
cerevisiaria (brewery).

A purely academic CV, on the other hand (for example), doesn't even indicate
that someone has any maturity or can do anything more than ruminate on
informational cud. (I know, I know, on that basis of selection alone,
Claudius would never have made Emperor...)

So some of us will have to agree to disagree, I suppose. But would our
government posts really be better filled by people with no track record, or
downright incompetent, than not filled at all?

Personally, I think the government of NR is too important to be trusted to
anyone who can't give a reasonable proof that (s)he knows what (s)he is
doing. It is always possible for the Censors to check credentials. Sensible
democracy has to have its limits. Universal suffrage is not the same as
universal candidacy.

As to the objections raised that this matter is premature: how else are
internal prerequisites for candidacies ever going evolve if we don't debate
them?

Valete,

Vado.

Subject:	Re: Re: Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:24:34 -0400 (EDT)

To, Chrys / Marius Merrullus;;

I think your idea in regard to certificates a very good one. The idea
now would be to rough design a certifcate for review of the Citizenship
and once the agreement of the majority is reached then smooth the
certificate and find out the printing cost. I am as enthusiastic as is
Merrullus in this regard. It sounds like a great idea. Perhaps Chrys
with her skill at setting up Webpages could be pursuaded to design such
a certificate with ideas provided from the rest of the Cives.

Perhaps then the Certificates could be offered by one of the Ordo
Equestor businesses for sale, or a new member could be considered for
that purpose.

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Taxes
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:55:15 -0700 (PDT)

Well, just let me know the day the taxes kick in--so I
can resign my citizenship and go into exile in
Massilia.

I, for one, am not going to be able to afford such. I
make very little money, have large student loans to
pay back, and am barely able to keep up membership in
the various academic organizations for which I am
"required" to keep up.


Vale
L. Licinius Varro Murena

Subject:	Re: Re: Service Qualification for Magistracies
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:03:58 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete, Citizens;

In response to the questions regarding the qualifications fr
Magistrates, my list of suggested areas of qualifications was jst that,
a list of suggestions. Those of you not carig for the miltary
experience as an idea, then Isuggest that you provide your own.
Roosevelt was a long time political animal and had served as the
govenor of New York quite suceesfully prior to his presidency. I
believe that the Govenor of a state qualifies for a quality admiistrato,
and as the Govenor served as the Commander of the States Military
Militia.

Eisenhower and Bush were both Presidents who publicly indicated that
their military background had helped them in thier administrative and
command duties. They "understood" the system and that is the thust of
this thread.

Winfield Scott was a senior General Officer that could not be believed
by the U.S. voter to be the candidate for President, but it was he who
negotiated the U.S. and Canada out of the potential "Pig War" that
nearly became an active war on St John's Island in Washinton State.

As an NCO in the mlitary of Britain, if you recognize the errors of your
superior in his duties, over a given period, and have a good idea of
what you would do in his place, then that knowledge and experience is
valuable to this thread.

As one other gentleman has indicated that insuring candidates follow the
Curus Honorium is a sufficient training / qualification procedure, but
that requires people to stand for office. The failure for those to
stand for office deprives the NR of a better selection. It also leads
to doubling up with offices and that leads in turn to a possible short
-circuiting of the very item that we rely upon to train our magistrates.
In my view a combination of experiences as well as the Cursus Honorium
is required, if only to list as credits for the candidacy. After all
the voters must finally decide the issue. If we cannot trust a
potential magistrate to tell the truth about his / her credits then they
certainly are not material to hold office and can be asked to stand
down..

I also join with Vado is his question;, if these matters are not
discussed in forum, amicably and without scorn or impatience how will
anything be discussed?. We have up-to-now relied upon individual
interest to bring up thread topics for discussion. If there are those
in NR who think that we should be discussing other things, then perhaps
if you would be so kind as to draw up a list of topics in order of
priority and submit them to the Citizens for comment, it would probably
make things more efficient.

Remember Cives, these are just ideas, and not full-blown proposals to
the Senate. They do not have the force of law, nor anywhere close to
it.

Valete, Citizens;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Africa
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:08:15 -0700 (PDT)

--- Don an--------ys Meaker <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=230166014180193192112218004036129208" >famromo@--------</a> wrote:
> From: "Don an--------ys Meaker" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=230166014180193192112218004036129208" >famromo@--------</a>
>
> Salvete,
>
> Does anyone know how far the Romans got into Africa?
>
I suppose you are talking of Africa the continent
instead of Africa Provincia?

Official presence was not much more than the coastal
strip in what is now Libya, and the far side of the
Atlas in what is now Tunisia (Africa Provincia
proper), Algeria, and Morocco. However, my
understanding is that Roman merchants (as the
Carthaginians before them) penetrated down the W.
African coast, probably to what is now Gambia, as well
as to places such as Jenne and Timbuktoo. In East
Africa Roman merchants went at least as far south as
Somalia/Kenya, and a Roman army in the time of
Augustus penetrated far up the Nile, to about the old
Kushite capital of Napata.

If you want, I can send you links to a collection of
documents I put online at the Internet History
Sourcebook of works by Roman geographers/historians
about Mauretania, Numidia, and Kush.

L. Licinius Varro Murena

Subject:	Re: Taxes
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:18:58 -0400 (EDT)

To JSA;

Salve JSA;

In regard to your comments about taxes, I assure you that prior to the
"Social Wars" when Q,Fabius, Sulla and I put forward a formal proosal
for such there was a clause which reduced the taxes for students and
similar situations. here was also provision to seek an exemption from
taxes either completely or partially. The Senate never to my knowledge
approved, disapproved or gave reason for thier inacton. It was I
believe still tabled at the time of the SW.

Those of us searching for a way to finance that which you are enjoying
are looking at all manner of ideas for the fairly steady income that
will let us (NR) have an income free of taxes if at all possible. If
that is not possible then a fair and equitable system od dues / taxation
must be established or let a few people financially support the rest. I
do not happen to subscribe to the feeling that everybody should "get off
their butt and earn the money required" as it must be obvious to even
the most casual observer that opportunity and availability, not to
ention health, family situations affect every possible aspect of that
situation.

I should not think that you need worry overly about self-exile to
Massila. It is my belief tat you are too valuable to NR to allow that
to happen.

Vale, JSA
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Re: Africa
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:20:56 -0700 (PDT)

--- RMerullo <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> wrote:
> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
> Salvete Crystallina et alii
> For more information on Roman
> rule in Africa and Egypt,
> you could look at "Provinces of the Roman Empire" by
> Theodor Mommsen. It is
> a boring book, but the author is recognized as one
> of the great scholars of
> Roman history.
>

Sorry, but I would not recommend Mommsen to any but an
academic audience. True, Mommsen was and remains one
of the great historians of Rome, but his work is
nearly a century out of date. There has been much done
archaeologically since, which has considerably changed
our vision of Roman Africa. A much better work to
begin with is:

S. Raven, _Rome in Africa_, 3d Ed., London: Routledge,
1993.

Vale
L. Licinius Varro Murena

Subject:	Re: Re: Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:28:33 -0500

On 23 Sep 99, at 12:24, James Mathews wrote:

> Perhaps Chrys
> with her skill at setting up Webpages could be pursuaded to design such a
> certificate with ideas provided from the rest of the Cives.

I could do that. I could even post it on a site that the civie would
have access to long enough to print it out OR the Censors or
whoever is in charge of that sort of thing could print it out and snail
mail it. That way someone with a better printer than I have (and
Publisher) would be able to have control of who has it and who
doesn't. We know that web addresses have a way of being found
out. We wouldn't want the address given out so any idiot can
claim to be a member, right?

Crys (getting ideas already -- Audens can talk me into anything
<G>)

Subject:	Re: Africa
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:26:58 -0400 (EDT)

To Licenius Varro Murena;

My dear sir.I would be most interested in any links that you may have
regarding Geograhers in the empire and the republic in Africa or in
Europe or the Near East

Thank You for your kind consideration;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: Taxes
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:34:08 -0500

On 23 Sep 99, at 9:55, JSA wrote:

> I, for one, am not going to be able to afford such. I
> make very little money, have large student loans to
> pay back, and am barely able to keep up membership in
> the various academic organizations for which I am
> "required" to keep up.
>
>
> Vale
> L. Licinius Varro Murena

Been there, done that. I would suggest there was a "student fee"
of say $.50 to be picked up by the NR government (upon receipt of
proof of "studenthood").

OR maybe some sort of sponsorship program, like the one which
provided me with my current subscription to the Eagle (Audens
made a point to me privately). Some civie or other would let it be
known (to the right people, NOT publicly as that would be
showboating and noone here would ever do anything like that I am
sure) that they can carry x amount towards civie Taxes or
something.

I haven't paid taxes in years. Whether someone can do that or not
depends on how much Pride is holding them back.

Crys

Subject:	Re: Africa
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:37:26 -0500

On 23 Sep 99, at 10:08, JSA wrote:

>
> If you want, I can send you links to a collection of
> documents I put online at the Internet History
> Sourcebook of works by Roman geographers/historians
> about Mauretania, Numidia, and Kush.

That would be nice, thanks. And thanks for the information.

Crys

Subject:	Re: Taxes
From:	"Martins-Esteves" esteves@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:45:35 -0300

Salve M. Minuci
Avete Quirites

(Audens)
>I believe that earlier in my message from which you took your excerpt, I
>mentioned that anyone who was an NR member could pay the taxes if they
>felt the need. If I did not say that it certainly was an omission that
>I regret.

Primo a word about excerpts. I did not have the intention of distorting your
words. If I did so, I am sorry. If I took an excerpt of you last message,
it was only with the purpose of organizing my own message and making it
clearer. I find it confusing to read a message full of quotted text and
unnecessary (and even pernicious to the ones with problems with internet
conection speed) to post in integra the commented message, for anyone can in
most circumstances read it before reading the answer to it. But it is a
matter of taste and de gustibus non disputandum. I will post your entire
message at the end of mine just in case.

You actually said "that anyone who was an NR member could pay the taxes if
they felt the need". And I did not ignore that statement, but my point is
that if an obligation exists just to some people, than it is as odiosa as it
were a right. I said that the difficulties of collecting taxes around the
world cannot be used as an argument to introducing such a dangerous
distinction about nationalities in NR, which is exactly one of our biggest
problems.

(Audens)
>May
>I most respectfully suggest that if you disagree with my proposal that
>you work out a counterproposal taking into consideration those in NR not
>having English and propose a fair way to make some kind of consideration
>that appeals to them. Since you have a clearer view of such from your
>standing outside the U.S. I await your comments with anticipation.

One more time I am sorry, Audens. I am not given to pure criticism and I
didn't mean to attack your purpose. As I am not an English speaker, it is
not so simple for me to write a message -- it demands obviously more time
than writing in the languages with wich I am familiar, and time is something
I unfortunately don't have. So my rare messages to the list are mostly less
expressive than I would have liked.

I think the only way for the supranationalization of NR is to strengthen the
Provinciae. If we had, in Brazil, for instance, an organized administration
we could have more and more active citizens here. So, as an ideal to strive,
each Provincia should collect the taxes in her territory and repass a
percentage to the Res Publica. However, while the Provinciae are not
properly organized, each citizen indistinctly should pay taxes to the Res
Publica, in case taxes there will be . I really do not know how the
collection could be made, but it seems good the proposal of using credit
cards. Another possibility could be international mail bonus, I don't know
if that's the proper name. It could be used by the Eagle or any official
correspondance.

So, optimum would be that each Provincia would collect her taxes, but
while it is not factible let all the cives pay them directly to Roma Nova.

Valete

T. Horatius Atticus


>My Dear Atticus;
>
>I believe that earlier in my message from which you took your excerpt, I
>mentioned that anyone who was an NR member could pay the taxes if they
>felt the need. If I did not say that it certainly was an omission that
>I regret.
>
>You yourself are a case in point. As an English-Speaking person outside
>the English -speaking countries,(my assumption) you have the full
>benifit of membership except perhaps the opportunity to visit
>get-gethers on this continent. As such I would expect that you would
>pay your fair share to NR should such a tax be introduced. But others
>from countries other than the English-Speaking countries who are members
>of NR but do not have English like two members of my Gens in Hungary,
>must enjoy NR in a secondary manner through translation. They are not
>lesser people in any way for not having English, but rather do not enjoy
>fully the exchange as you or I do. I think and my proposal reflects
>this, that NR should give some consideration to these people. That the
>topic is important, as has already been proven with the loss of several
>citizens because of this situation.
>
>I don't think it is the intention of anyone here in NR to cast anyone
>into slavery, in order to give them a break. That was not the purpose
>of the proposal. It was as you so very kindly said, "well meant". >
>I believe that you must admit that many non-Americans consider the U.S.
>to be less than sympathetic to the world's problems outside of U.S.
>boundaries. One of my efforts since I have first gone to a foriegn
>country many years ago was tio dispell this feeling in some very small
>and insignificant way. I am still working on that premise.
>
>Vale, Atticus;
>Very Respectfully;
>Marcus Minucius Auens.
>
>Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
>>

Subject:	Re: Re: Taxes
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:08:32 -0700 (PDT)

Perhaps a free subscription to The Eagle might make
the idea of paying taxes more palatable to those of us
for whom membership in NR is, as yet, of little
practical worth. Thus, as part of our membership dues,
we get a subscription.

L. Licinius Varro Murena

--- James Mathe--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------e:
> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
>
> Salvete, Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
> I have mailed the August Issue of the Eagle today.
> I apologize for the
> lateness of the mailing, but the plan was overtaken
> by events.

Subject:	Re: Re: Taxes
From:	"Martins-Esteves" esteves@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:04:52 -0300

Avete Romani

>Perhaps a free subscription to The Eagle might make
>the idea of paying taxes more palatable to those of us
>for whom membership in NR is, as yet, of little
>practical worth. Thus, as part of our membership dues,
>we get a subscription.
>
>L. Licinius Varro Murena

Bravissimo! And by these means all the cives would be more acquainted with
NR and would be encouraged to be more active.

Atticus

Subject:	Re: Service Qualification for Magistracies
From:	Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:21:28 -0400

Salvete!

L. Sergius Australicus wrote,

>You can't get enough people to serve in the magistracies and other jobs
and yet
>you're already discussing job requirements that would have the effect of
>preventing some people from serving. ... Military service in some
macronation's armed forces,
>while it might be laudable and honorable, has nothing whatsoever to do
>with determining anyone's ability to serve Nova Roma well.

I agree entirely. However, I think that some form of use of the "century
points" - i.e. service to NR - devised by Germanicus as a threshold for
standing for the senior offices is not a bad idea and serves as an analogue
for the ancient roman requirement of military service. Certainly preferable
to age limits, which are unenforceable in a virtual organisation. As I
suggested in my original email, a dispensation for the first few years of
NR's existence is necessary and clearly meets Australicus' first point.

Valete

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Re: Africa
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:02:54 -0700 (PDT)

--- James Mathe--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------e:
>> My dear sir.I would be most interested in any links
> that you may have
> regarding Geograhers in the empire and the republic
> in Africa or in
> Europe or the Near East
>
>

Ok, here they are. Keep in mind that the sources we
are able to post online are mostly confined to Public
Domain (i.e., pre-1923)--which means in some cases
better translations are available, but they are under
copyright (thus, if you want to do serious work,
consult your local college library). Also, the
Internet Sourcebook is an ongoing project, which means
not every source has as yet been posted--but I'm
working on it.

With that caveat in mind:

This first one is a collection of accounts relating to
Nubia/Kush.
<a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/nubia1.html" target="_top" >http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/nubia1.html</a>

This next one is a collection of accounts relating to
Numidia/Mauretania.
<a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/anc-nafrica.html" target="_top" >http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/anc-nafrica.html</a>

Others, including the accounts of Caesar, Pliny, and
the Periplus, can be found at the Internet African
History Sourcebook:
<a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/africa/africasbook.html" target="_top" >http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/africa/africasbook.html</a>

For anyone interested, I am including some ancient
accounts of pre-Islamic Arabia, which includes the
disastrous Roman invasion:
<a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/arabia1.html" target="_top" >http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/arabia1.html</a>

Perhaps someday the NR webmistress can include links
to the Ancient History Sourcebook, for which a NR
citizen (namely, myself) am the Contributing Editor.

L. Licinius Varro Murena

Subject:	Roman Visions
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:34:25 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete!

So, before I'm forced to Masillia under Interdict
aquae et ignis, a few thoughts on what NR may wish to
do in the coming century.

The first, and the most easily doable (I think) would
be a Roman equivalent of those Med/Ren faires that are
so popular today. Let's call it "Roman Times". So
you'd have citizens walking about in togas and stolas,
performing public sacrifices, selling Roman-style
food, etc. Instead of a mock-joust, you have
mock-gladiatorial games, maybe even a chariot race.
And since Roma Antiqua encompassed such a large
proportion of the ancient world, you can also have
booths or programs reflecting the world of the Celts,
Germans, Africans, Egyptians, Greeks, Persians,
Babylonians, etc. These could also have their own
public sacrifices/worship too. Perhaps a re-enactment
of Cannae (or some less ambitious skirmish). Something
by Terence or Plautus too for the more dramatically
inclined. But try to avoid the faux-Roman stuff you
see in Las Vegas.

Second, a bit more ambitious, perhaps later in the
century, is something akin to those Medieval Times
shows--Roman times, with Roman food (and dining on
couches?), with a show later--gladiatorial probably,
but maybe also some Roman farce or play.

Third, the most difficult, but doable if the resources
are there, an actual Roman town where the citizens
live and work (yes, with updates, we can have
electricity, computers, etc. or whatever they're using
in 2090 CE), NOT like a Disneyesque place, perhaps
more like Colonial Williamsburg. A living, working
community, perhaps with a bit of role-playing for
tourists (like Williamsburg has slaves, though they're
not real slaves) to bring in some money.

Any other ideas?

Valete
L. Licinius Varro Murena

Subject:	Re: Re: Taxes
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:11:36 -0700

Salve

As one who had 4 businesses that accepted Credit Cards...Most banks offer
Credit transfers that woudl even accept international Credit Cards....I know
for a fact that my businesses (which I tried at one time to get in NR)
Accepted all Major Credit Cards...the only one that insisted using a
different method of acceptance is American Express. Hope this helps.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul

James Mathews wrote:

> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
>
> I am really not sure what is entailed in gettig a Credit Card payment
> system. I know there are some fairly small busnesses using such, and
> others that I know are not, becase their feeling that they are too
> expensive.
>
> I am also not sure what the requirements are to acquire such. I ask
> Marcus Cassius Julianus as a businessman, have you looked into this
> payment method and if you have what is the cost and rules??. If not can
> you direct me to someone who may have the information?
>
> The Credit Card may be a partial answer to the transfer of funds between
> countries. I know that the major credit cards are honored almost
> everywhere in the world, but I am not sure about any out-of-country fees
> that may be levied.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>

Subject:	Re: Re: Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:14:35 -0700

Salve....

Before the Social Wars, Appius Cato, sent an e-mail to me that I forwarded to
the Senate...regarding Citizenship documents, selling them to the Civies,
listing such infomraton as the date they were approved...possible framing and
such. If anyone is interested I will be more than happy to dig up the e-mail.
I thought this had potential.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul

RMerullo wrote:

> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
> Salvete Crystallina et alii
>
> I think that the idea of bought NR certificates dovetails well with the
> concept of an incentive program for encouraging donations.
>
> Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar and others have suggested that people earn some
> sort of recognition by contributing certain amounts of funds (either being
> enrolled in an ordo equester -- not to be confused with the ordo equester
> that we already sort of have -- by paying 25 bucks, or being listed
> somewhere on the website with an honorary title based on the magnitude of
> the donation). I think that issuing a real, attractive certificate with
> some of the graphics that were to be featured in some of the other potential
> NR products, with an honorary title or something, would provide a nice
> additional incentive to donate funds.
>
> Also of interest is the idea that you mention of some kind of "bond" or
> payment by incoming magistrates. But this is something to treat carefully.
> We don't want people to buy offices. I therefore would recommend that we
> steer clear of having candidates pay anything during the campaign. If we
> really are as broke as some suggest (it is impossible to be precise about
> this without real numbers publically posted of course), then it may make
> sense to have mandatory contributions to the treasury from incoming
> magistrates. But that's kind of a last-ditch measure, don't you think? It
> will be unfair to the magistrates to make them pay for the rest of us. That
> is why we need the Senate to pass a budgetary consultum, the sooner the
> better, so that we can all understand where we stand financially and take
> appropriate action.
>
> Less unfair is to apply your idea of a certificate award to those
> magistrates who pay for it. As an example, the winner of a future campaign
> for Praetor has the option of paying, say, $75, to receive a certificate
> that says Primus Secundus Manlius Praetor Novae Romae AUC XXXXX, or
> whatever, with the flag image and/or the Iuppiter or other image; or not,
> in which case he serves as Praetor without the pretty piece of paper.
>
> I remain optimistic about the possibility of funding NR without imposed
> taxes or other forced payments, probably because I was donating money to NR
> at one time. If I do it, I see no reason that others won't.
>
> As far as the US government goes, I have a question for our newly elected,
> but still lacking imperium consul:
>
> Can ANYONE (corporation, individual, not-for-profit or any other entity)
> legally collect taxes on US territory, other than the federal government, or
> a local or state administration?
>
> Valete
>
> Gaius Marius Merullus
>
> >From: "Don an--------ys Meaker" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=230166014180193192112218004036129208" >famromo@--------</a>
> >
>
> >What about fees instead of taxes. Won't the US government have
> >a fit if we get tax exempt status and yet charge taxes?
> >
> >How about fees instead of taxes. There could be, say a donation
> >to Nova Roma for something. I hesitate to say for prayers to the
> >gods (as I myself would owe thousands for the Augur Dex <G>)
> >because I do not believe the gods can be bought. Perhaps
> >something else can be arranged.
> >
>
> >3. Certificates (perhaps some of our office holders and priests
> >would like a nice certificate to hang from the wall behind their
> >monitor?)
> >
> >Just another money making suggestion.
> >
>
> >
> >Crys (again)
> >
>
>

Subject:	Re: Taxes
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:19:13 -0700

Salve...

You arent the only one with school loans. I do very much understand
that....considering I am paying for school loans for my Associates,
Bachelors and now Masters Degree. You are talking in the realm of
astrobucks. Not to mention when I start going to law school. However, in
the realm of NR taxing. I think 10.00-15.00, the price of 2 movie tickets
isnt something that is going to put anyone out on the streets. Believe me,
I feel for everyone in debt. As I am there myself. Just my 2 cents..
(which I cant afford either...LOL)

L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul

JSA wrote:

> From: JSA <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=081166091180193192130061163101147165026048139046" >varromurena@--------</a>
>
> Well, just let me know the day the taxes kick in--so I
> can resign my citizenship and go into exile in
> Massilia.
>
> I, for one, am not going to be able to afford such. I
> make very little money, have large student loans to
> pay back, and am barely able to keep up membership in
> the various academic organizations for which I am
> "required" to keep up.
>
> Vale
> L. Licinius Varro Murena
>

Subject:	Re: Re: Taxes
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:22:31 -0700

Salve...that is in the proposal that Audens, Q.Fabius and I proposed.. :)
Already ahead of ya there on that one! :)

L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul

JSA wrote:

> From: JSA <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=081166091180193192130061163101147165026048139046" >varromurena@--------</a>
>
> Perhaps a free subscription to The Eagle might make
> the idea of paying taxes more palatable to those of us
> for whom membership in NR is, as yet, of little
> practical worth. Thus, as part of our membership dues,
> we get a subscription.
>
> L. Licinius Varro Murena
>
> --- James Mathe--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------e:
> > From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
> >
> > Salvete, Citizens of Nova Roma;
> >
> > I have mailed the August Issue of the Eagle today.
> > I apologize for the
> > lateness of the mailing, but the plan was overtaken
> > by events.
>

Subject:	Re: Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:01:22 -0400

Salvete Consul Luci Corneli et alii

How about the legality of collecting taxes under US law? Would NR have to
conclude a tax treaty or something with the US? How would the existence and
nature of Nova Roma Corporation (a NH corporation having applied for
tax-exempt status identified as the legal/financial arm of Nova Roma under
the constitution) impact such legality/illegality, if at all? Tax law may
or may not be your concentration, but I would think that as a law student
you would have a good idea where to check this out.

I wouldn't mind looking at Appius Cato's ideas on certificates. If you can
find that e-mail easily, please send it my way.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus



>From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>

>Before the Social Wars, Appius Cato, sent an e-mail to me that I forwarded
to
>the Senate...regarding Citizenship documents, selling them to the Civies,
>listing such infomraton as the date they were approved...possible framing
and
>such. If anyone is interested I will be more than happy to dig up the
e-mail.
>I thought this had potential.
>
>L. Cornelius Sulla
>Consul
>
>
>> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>>

>> As far as the US government goes, I have a question for our newly
elected,
>> but still lacking imperium consul:
>>
>> Can ANYONE (corporation, individual, not-for-profit or any other entity)
>> legally collect taxes on US territory, other than the federal government,
or
>> a local or state administration?
>>
>> Valete
>>
>> Gaius Marius Merullus
>>

Subject:	Re: Re: Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	SDmtwi@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:28:42 EDT

Salvete,

Caius Marius Merullus wrote:
> Also of interest is the idea that you mention of some kind of "bond" or
> payment by incoming magistrates. But this is something to treat carefully.
> We don't want people to buy offices. I therefore would recommend that we
> steer clear of having candidates pay anything during the campaign.

One thing we could do, though, is have candidates pay a nominal fee for the
privilege of running. As long as the fee was low enough to avoid being
exclusionary and identical for all candidates, it would both be fair and
avoid the kind of thing Caius Marius is worried about.

Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	Re: Another passing thought
From:	Jenni Hunt moonloon@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:42:34 -0400

At 10:00 AM 09/22/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>(If I missed anyone my apologies!!)

Don't forget me!
The lone Roman in Rhode Island . . .

Jenni
(I. Ovidia Luna)

Subject:	Re: Re: Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:43:43 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: RMerullo <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 2:01 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Fees instead of Taxes?


> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
> Salvete Consul Luci Corneli et alii
>
> How about the legality of collecting taxes under US law? Would NR have to
> conclude a tax treaty or something with the US? How would the existence
and
> nature of Nova Roma Corporation (a NH corporation having applied for
> tax-exempt status identified as the legal/financial arm of Nova Roma under
> the constitution) impact such legality/illegality, if at all? Tax law may
> or may not be your concentration, but I would think that as a law student
> you would have a good idea where to check this out.

Sulla: I can do some research on it....at the Los Angeles Law Library. I
dont think we would have to worry about hte taxes once we register as a Not
for Profit Corporation, since that does the registering for us. The thing,
that we must be accountable for is not overstepping the Not-For-Profit
Clauses once the paperwork goes through. I have worked for California
Baptist College (A Not-For-Profit, Public Benefit Corporation and the Not
For Profit Religious Corporation) and there are alot of restrictions in
terms of dealing with the fiances. Yeah I can definately, on my day off,
Mon or Tuesday research just what the restrictions are in terms of filing
for that status.

Sulla: The primary benefit for American Civies, is that when we are able to
say we are a NfPC is that we can deducte those proceeds from our Taxes,
which is something that I have been waiting for.... (I can use the write
offs)

> I wouldn't mind looking at Appius Cato's ideas on certificates. If you
can
> find that e-mail easily, please send it my way.

Sulla: Certainly, when I am back at home (I am at work now) I will dig
through my NR e-mail and see what I can find and post it to the list. I
really liked his idea...Cassius at one point, I think I am recalling
correctly, was looking at a similar idea. Lets see if we can get this
going...it would be a good idea for the Ordo!

L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul

Subject:	Re: Re: Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:59:46 -0700

> Caius Marius Merullus wrote:
> > Also of interest is the idea that you mention of some kind of "bond" or
> > payment by incoming magistrates. But this is something to treat
carefully.
> > We don't want people to buy offices. I therefore would recommend that
we
> > steer clear of having candidates pay anything during the campaign.
>
> One thing we could do, though, is have candidates pay a nominal fee for
the
> privilege of running. As long as the fee was low enough to avoid being
> exclusionary and identical for all candidates, it would both be fair and
> avoid the kind of thing Caius Marius is worried about.

Sulla: Wait wait wait.....While I agree this might be something we can
possible think about in the future, I have to agree with L. Serg. and point
out once again...that we have yet to fill our offices completely. This is
way to premature for something of this magnitude. I recall, at one time,
Decius Iunius ask all magistrates to pay some money, I was unable to at the
time, being unemployed. But, making a requirement to pay for office, I
disagree.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul

Subject:	Re: Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:11:00 -0400

Salvete!

Merullus writes,

>How about the legality of collecting taxes under US law? Would NR have to
>conclude a tax treaty or something with the US?

I don't think that calling it "taxes" makes any difference to what it is
any more than the Mormons calling theirs "tithes". At the end of the day as
a matter of macro-state law any such arrangement is not a tax but
contractual membership subscriptions to a voluntary organisation. It's only
a "tax" if you can't resign from the State and hence decline to pay!

I don't know about the New Hampshire law of nonprofit organisations, but in
England subscriptions make no difference to charitable status. Hell, BUPA -
the main provider of medical insurance - is a charity here!

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Re: Roman Visions
From:	Steven Robinson amgunn@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:46:10 -0700

Hailsa Allir Romanii!

Piparskegg (Venator) here:

JSA wrote:
>
> From: JSA <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=081166091180193192130061163101147165026048139046" >varromurena@--------</a>
>
> Salvete!
>
> So, before I'm forced to Masillia under Interdict
> aquae et ignis, a few thoughts on what NR may wish to
> do in the coming century.
>
> The first, and the most easily doable (I think) would
> be a Roman equivalent of those Med/Ren faires that are
> so popular today. Let's call it "Roman Times". (snip)
> Perhaps a re-enactment of Cannae (or some less ambitious skirmish). (snip)
>
> Valete
> L. Licinius Varro Murena
>
Hej, I could probably get up a bunch of Germanii and Scandii to do up a
recreation of Teutbergerwald <Big Evil Grin> with Nova Roma's Legions.
<All Hail the Honored Adversary!>

Seriously, this is good goal. Perhaps a Nova Roma equivalent of the U.S. or
English Civil War reenactments, with the fair and living history village as
an anchor to the whole. And, perhaps we can learn from what the less
culturally serious recreation groups do well.

In Frith - Piparskegg (Valete - Venator)

Subject:	Re: Service Qualification for Magistracies
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:41:47 EDT

Salvete,

I didn't get to respond to this thread since my computer is busy dying once
again.

It seems best to start by saying that it's understood that Marcus Minucius
Audens was merely bringing up an idea for discussion here. No harm in that!
Far better we discuss various ideas for making Nova Roma better than start
personal arguments, etc.

However, I can't help but chime in and say that I personally have never
served in the military, nor have been through any of the
institutions/organizations which Marcus Audens has also cited for their
potential to build character, discipline and leadership qualities. I've led a
pretty quiet civilian life in fact... school, college, work.
Nova Roma managed to be founded without those qualifications on MY part
anyway, although Germanicus may well have served in the military at some
point.

I must say I believe that where a person has been doesn't make the
difference. It's what they DO. ;)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator



In a message dated 9/23/99 12:04:13 PM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------es:

<< In response to the questions regarding the qualifications fr
Magistrates, my list of suggested areas of qualifications was jst that,
a list of suggestions. Those of you not carig for the miltary
experience as an idea, then Isuggest that you provide your own.
Roosevelt was a long time political animal and had served as the
govenor of New York quite suceesfully prior to his presidency. I
believe that the Govenor of a state qualifies for a quality admiistrato,
and as the Govenor served as the Commander of the States Military
Militia.

Eisenhower and Bush were both Presidents who publicly indicated that
their military background had helped them in thier administrative and
command duties. They "understood" the system and that is the thust of
this thread.

Winfield Scott was a senior General Officer that could not be believed
by the U.S. voter to be the candidate for President, but it was he who
negotiated the U.S. and Canada out of the potential "Pig War" that
nearly became an active war on St John's Island in Washinton State.

As an NCO in the mlitary of Britain, if you recognize the errors of your
superior in his duties, over a given period, and have a good idea of
what you would do in his place, then that knowledge and experience is
valuable to this thread.

As one other gentleman has indicated that insuring candidates follow the
Curus Honorium is a sufficient training / qualification procedure, but
that requires people to stand for office. The failure for those to
stand for office deprives the NR of a better selection. It also leads
to doubling up with offices and that leads in turn to a possible short
-circuiting of the very item that we rely upon to train our magistrates.
In my view a combination of experiences as well as the Cursus Honorium
is required, if only to list as credits for the candidacy. After all
the voters must finally decide the issue. If we cannot trust a
potential magistrate to tell the truth about his / her credits then they
certainly are not material to hold office and can be asked to stand
down..

I also join with Vado is his question;, if these matters are not
discussed in forum, amicably and without scorn or impatience how will
anything be discussed?. We have up-to-now relied upon individual
interest to bring up thread topics for discussion. If there are those
in NR who think that we should be discussing other things, then perhaps
if you would be so kind as to draw up a list of topics in order of
priority and submit them to the Citizens for comment, it would probably
make things more efficient.

Remember Cives, these are just ideas, and not full-blown proposals to
the Senate. They do not have the force of law, nor anywhere close to
it.
>>

Subject:	Re: Roman Visions
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:26:38 -0500

On 23 Sep 99, at 19:46, Steven Robinson wrote:

> Hej, I could probably get up a bunch of Germanii and Scandii to do up a
> recreation of Teutbergerwald <Big Evil Grin> with Nova Roma's Legions.
> <All Hail the Honored Adversary!>

Couldja hold off another month or two? Lapis is really threatening
to walk on me. I think he's preparing for his military career, if the
way he pulls his sisters hair is any indication. <G>

Crys Materna

Subject:	Re: Re: Fees instead of Taxes?
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Thu, 23 Sep 1999 23:01:14 -0500 (CDT)

This can be made very simple. To the US government the term yearly
membership fees would apply. Here in Nova Roma it would be referred to
as taxes in all probability. Why is this so difficult to understand?
Legally in some instance there may be a need to notate the term yearly
fees as a matter of practice. Sulla or any other law students or
lawyers--- the ball is in your court.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus