| Subject: |
Re: Re: Iterum de imperio |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 25 Sep 1999 04:08:03 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------; wrote:
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 9/24/99 7:55:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:
>
> << Let us also hope that those who are elected into office in the future will
> be vested with imperium.
> >>
>
> Salvete,
>
> The Pontificial College has in fact just finished a discussion on the method
> of vesting the current Magistrates with Imperium, as defined in the new
> version of the Constitution. Obviously since Imperium is called for THIS
> year's magistrates will shortly be invested with Imperium... however since
> this action hasn't officially been done before it seemed sensible to work out
> a procedure rather than simply declaring to be so.
>
> I myself will be doing a ritual to Jupiter Optimus Maximus on Saturday, 9/25,
> to at least symbolically link the invesment of Imperium to something more
> than a rubber stamp approval. After this the Pontificial College has already
> given assent that I may speak for them collectively to pronounce that
> Imperium has been conferred. I'll be making that announcement on Monday,
> 9/27.
Salvete,
Perhaps a few words on how imperium is conferred and witnessed by the
comitia curiata are in order. From my understanding, the process by
which this ceremonial body will confer imperium (and witness appointments,
etc) will be simply to have an email sent out to all 30 lictores curiatiae
essentially saying, "witness this message." A response is not even needed
though I think participation on the part of the lictors will make this
somewhat more meaningful, perhaps a message saying "I have witnessed this
event." To convene the comitia, all the Pont. Max. has to do is send out
one message to the 30 lictores saying "I convene the comitia curiata to
convene imperium upon the curule magistrates of this year." A simple "ita
est" by the lictores is sufficient to witness the event. This is not
complex at all. The comitia is not a comitia like the others--it is
ceremonial--it does not debate or discuss. The place for that is the
comitia that elects the magistrates. For lack of a better term, the
comitia curiata notarizes.
G. Tarquinus is quite right, the comitia has not been convened and the
lictores have not been contacted. Cassius was referring to the pontifical
college discussing the procedural issue, not the comitia itself. After
Cassius completes the ritual to Iuppiter, I imagine he will send out the
document to the 30 lictores to notarize.
Valete,
Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Iterum de imperio |
| From: |
Cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:44:20 EDT |
|
In a message dated 9/24/99 7:30:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Gaius Drusus
Domitianus (<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a>) --------es:
<< Unless I missed something I am a member of the Comitia Curiata and
was never aware that the body was convened for any reason. Could someone
fill me in as to what's going on.
>>
Cassius:
This is one of the difficulties I've been trying to get across. Flavius
Vedius Germanicus had only so much time during his Dictatorship... his goal
was to get things back to normal as quickly as possible. He was able to set
up the basic function for the Lictors, and obtained volunteers to BE lictors,
but that's as far as things have progressed as far as I have been aware.
I have seen no evidence whatever that there has been any "organizing" of the
Lictors after their creation. No news has run through the Senate, nor have I
seen any discourse about them, or from them, in any forum. Aside from seeing
a list of who'd volunteered during the Dictatorship, I'm not even sure which
Citizens ARE Lictors. I haven't seen a contact point for them on the website,
nor a published list of official members.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus
|
| Subject: |
Lictors |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@--------) |
| Date: |
Sat, 25 Sep 1999 12:33:41 -0400 (EDT) |
|
To Cassius;
Take it easy old buddy, I was just asking sme questions. I'm on your
side remember?? It seemed fairly clear to me what the problem is from
your post and from Palladius' post. There are thirty Lictors, but no
leader or organizer, so 30 Lictors have waited to be contacted not
knowing that the onus of this organization job has been placed on you
and you don't know who they are.
Since the task of the Litors seems to be quite modest. I am not
surprised at the lack of interest. No, there has been no contact among
the Lictors to my knowledge except for the recent posts. Probably what
is needed is a Lictor Centurian of some kind to keep all the lictors
appraised of there duties and when thy will take place. I have some
specific questions regarding the lictrs which you may ot be able to
answer, but which I will ask anyway:
--How many "Nos" would it take for the lictors to refuse Imperium to a
Candidate?
--Who are the Lictors/
--Do you think it necessary to have a Lictor Centurion / Optio to speak
for the group in plannin for ceremonies using their presenace and
explaining in detail their duties;
--Where is the reference to thier duties in a ceremonial/
Lastly how may I be of assistance to you in this activity as one of
thirty of the lictors.
I don't see that you are taking the heat for anything. It is true that
Merrullus and others have asked some rather pointe questions, but it is
certainly wthin your pervue to reply with some pointed answers. If
Germanicus is just getting around to supplying you with a list of
Lictors then the fault is his, not yours.
I dsagee with Merrullus in his tirade and comment that why didn't
Lictors jump up and askmore questions about the installation of
Imperium. I could remind him that such is the way to get smacked down
good and proper by the "unofficial" President of NR, a possibility which
grows stronger with every passing snide remark and insult uttered on the
net, and with every failed opportunity to answer questions of the
citizens of the Censors. His refusal on several scores are slowly but
surely earning him an increasing degree o of emnenty.
It appears that an announcement to all Lictors of their duties provided
by a Lictor Co-ordinator togther with the planned ceremonies is all that
is required. I am not sure why anyone would think that these people
would get together since thier actual job seems really to be
meaningless, and of no real value except to increase the dignitus of a
given ceremony, Not if we could "unbind the rods" for disruption to the
Micronation, That might be fun!!!! (Grin)
Buck Up my friend, you are alone no longer (grin)
Vale With Respect
Marcus Minucius Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: Iterum de imperio |
| From: |
Cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 25 Sep 1999 13:11:23 EDT |
|
In a message dated 9/24/99 8:04:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a> writes:
Cassius:
<<As far as I am
aware the practical details of the Lictors are still being worked out - and
to my knowledge they have not yet been assigned any magistrates or to work
with the comitia curiata.>>
Caesar:
So who, if not you Pontifex maximus, is working out the practical details?
Cassius:
Say, that's a darned good question there. It just now is dawning on me that I
probably AM personally responsible for getting the College of Lictors into a
cohesive and functioning state. Unfortunately I've been having computer
problems for the last three weeks so my Nova Roma time has been limited. My
participation has consisted mostly of keeping up with the goings on in the
Senate, and working to get new Pontiffs into the Pontificial College so
*that* body will be running more officially. There simply hasn't been much
opportunity for me to be proactive and go after new duties.
I will be offline on Sunday, 9/26, and Monday, 9/27 while a tech from
Patricia Cassia's office works on my computer system. Hopefully I'll be more
fully online after that and can work with this situation. If I'm publicly
crucified over this before then, well, so be it.
Caesar:
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: Iterum de imperio |
| From: |
SDmtwi@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 25 Sep 1999 15:08:44 EDT |
|
Salvete Cassi et alii.
> I have seen no evidence whatever that there has been any "organizing" of
the
> Lictors after their creation. No news has run through the Senate, nor have
I
It is true that no action has been taken to organize the lictores curiata,
and that no attempt has been made to contact the body as a whole (as far as I
know).
> seen any discourse about them, or from them, in any forum. Aside from
> seeing
> a list of who'd volunteered during the Dictatorship, I'm not even sure
which
> Citizens ARE Lictors. I haven't seen a contact point for them on the
website,
> nor a published list of official members.
At the bottom of this message, you will find the list of lictores curiata,
copied directly from the Nova Roma web site. You can find it in the aerarium
saturni, under "Various Editcta" stated by then dictator Germanicus, 7/30/99.
Please note that he said, "...the following individuals are hereby
appointed...," as opposed to "...the following individuals have volunteered
for...."
I do not believe that there is an official single point of contact for the
lictores. However, it is stated elsewhere that the Ponitfex Maximus convenes
the lictores, which implies that he would be the one who would act in that
capacity.
"7) The following individuals are hereby appointed as lictores curiata: Gaius
Iunius Germanus, T Labienus Fortunatus, Gaius Iunius Germanus, Gaius Drusus
Domitianus, Camillus Severus Antoninus, Flavius Vedius Germanicus, Decius
Iunius Palladius, Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quinta Claudia Lucentia Aprica,
Lucius Fabius Metellus, Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia, Lucinia Iunia
Cypria, Marcus Martianus Gangalius, Marcus Minucius Audens, Junius Niger
Montis, Gaius Olivarius Mezentius, Paulus Olympius Gallus, Lucius Petronius
Gallus, Gaius Severus Marius Germanicus, Ambrosius Silvanus Virbius, Gnaeus
Tarquinius Caesar, Titia Irisia, Gaius Triumphius Cicero, Piperbaru Ullerius
Venator, Gaius Antonius Scaenicus, Gaius Augustus, Tiberius Caselius
Sidonius, Publius Claudius Lucentius Severus, Marcus Equitius Lentulus, and
Marcus Cornelius Felix. They are reminded that this is a purely ceremonial
position, and yet a vital one wherein they act as witnesses to official acts,
including the bestowing of Imperium upon certain elected magistrates."
Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Lictors |
| From: |
SDmtwi@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 25 Sep 1999 15:30:45 EDT |
|
Salvete, Marci Minuci et alii.
> --How many "Nos" would it take for the lictors to refuse Imperium to a
> Candidate?
The lictores curiata can not refuse to bestow imperium.
> --Who are the Lictors/
See "Various Edicta" in the aerarium saturni on the Nova Roma web site, or my
previous post to our esteemed Pontifex Maximus.
> --Do you think it necessary to have a Lictor Centurion / Optio to speak
> for the group in plannin for ceremonies using their presenace and
> explaining in detail their duties;
This seems to me to be a good idea, assuming that M Cassius feels it is
necessary. Otherwise, I have assumed that the duty was his to perform.
> --Where is the reference to thier duties in a ceremonial/
The only reference to the lictores' duties I am aware of comes from the
constitution, which says,
"The comitia curiata (Assembly of Curiae) shall be made up of thirty
lictores curiatae (curia lictors), appointed to their position by the
collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs). It shall be called to order by
the Pontifex Maximus, and the collegium pontificum shall set the rules by
which the comitia curiata shall operate internally. It shall have the
following responsibilities:
"1. To invest elected and appointed magistrates with Imperium (which is
necessary to employ coercitio (the power to compel obedience to his edicts),
interpret and execute law, and possess the honor of being preceeded by
lictors as a symbol of office), without right of refusal individually or as a
body;
"2.To witness the appointment of official priests and priestesses of the
Religio Romana, adoptions, and the recording of wills."
Therefore, it seems to me that it was appropriate for M Cassius to convene
the collegium pontificum to determine how we lictores should proceed in
officially bestowing imperium upon new magistrates.
It is unfortunate that he did not communicate his plans to do so to either
the lictores or the citizenry in order to forestall such concerns as C Marius
has aired.
However, I do believe that it is a forgivable sin, and I also believe that it
is forgivable to miss a deadline or two as we nail down how exactly the
organs of the government should work. In future, though, I caution him and
other officials of the republic that a lack of communication is often seen as
proof of a lack of action.
> It appears that an announcement to all Lictors of their duties provided
> by a Lictor Co-ordinator togther with the planned ceremonies is all that
> is required. I am not sure why anyone would think that these people
> would get together since thier actual job seems really to be
> meaningless, and of no real value except to increase the dignitus of a
> given ceremony, Not if we could "unbind the rods" for disruption to the
> Micronation, That might be fun!!!! (Grin)
I have not attempted to contact anyone in my capacity as one of the lictores
curiata primarily because I assumed that the collegium pontificum was still
deliberating on procedure. In addition, I have been distracted by my duties
as a rogator and a new father. It seems quite probable that the rest of the
lictores have equally valid reasons.
As for the meaninglessness of the position, I disagree. It is true that the
duties are purely ceremonial, but any nation (micro- or otherwise) needs
traditions and ceremonies. They define the character of the state and
provide much of the glue that holds a society together. Take Thanksgiving
Day parades in the US. They are entirely ceremonial, but that country would
be impoverished by their absence.
Valete,
T Labienus fortunatus
|
| Subject: |
EDICTUM: New Scribus |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:43:56 -0400 |
|
Salvete!
It is with great pleasure that I hereby appoint Iucundia Flavia as scribus
to assist with the maintenance and expansion of the official Nova Roma web
site. Her programming abilities and sense of style will immesurably help
with the effort to keep the web site up-to-date, fresh, and exciting. I hope
everyone will help me welcome her to the job.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Curator Araneum
|
| Subject: |
Re: EDICTUM: New Scribus |
| From: |
"RCW" alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:47:07 -0700 |
|
Contrast Iucucdia Flavia!!!
I know you will do a great job!
L. Cornelius Sulla
Co-Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 1999 7:43 PM
Subject: [novaroma] EDICTUM: New Scribus
> From: "Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
>
> Salvete!
>
> It is with great pleasure that I hereby appoint Iucundia Flavia as scribus
> to assist with the maintenance and expansion of the official Nova Roma web
> site. Her programming abilities and sense of style will immesurably help
> with the effort to keep the web site up-to-date, fresh, and exciting. I
hope
> everyone will help me welcome her to the job.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Curator Araneum
>
> >
|
| Subject: |
Re: Lictors |
| From: |
"RCW" alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 25 Sep 1999 23:15:28 -0700 |
|
Salve, IMHO the Lictors would be like Notary Publics... :)
Sulla
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 1999 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Lictors
> From: Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, James Mathews wrote:
>
> > From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
> >
>
> Salve Marce Minuci Audens, Honored Candidate for Praetor,
>
> > Take it easy old buddy, I was just asking sme questions. I'm on your
> > side remember?? It seemed fairly clear to me what the problem is from
> > your post and from Palladius' post. There are thirty Lictors, but no
> > leader or organizer, so 30 Lictors have waited to be contacted not
> > knowing that the onus of this organization job has been placed on you
> > and you don't know who they are.
> >
> > Since the task of the Litors seems to be quite modest. I am not
> > surprised at the lack of interest. No, there has been no contact among
> > the Lictors to my knowledge except for the recent posts. Probably what
> > is needed is a Lictor Centurian of some kind to keep all the lictors
> > appraised of there duties and when thy will take place. I have some
> > specific questions regarding the lictrs which you may ot be able to
> > answer, but which I will ask anyway:
> >
> > --How many "Nos" would it take for the lictors to refuse Imperium to a
> > Candidate?
>
> The Constitution clearly states that the Lictors "invest elected and
> appointed magistrates...without right of refusal individually or as a
> body." There are no votes. Essentially, if the lictors were standing
> together, they would watch the magistrates as they were invested with
> imperium (perhaps watch as they assumed their badge of office).
>
> > --Who are the Lictors/
>
> Fortunatus quite helpfully posted all 30 of them in another message.
>
> > --Do you think it necessary to have a Lictor Centurion / Optio to speak
> > for the group in plannin for ceremonies using their presenace and
> > explaining in detail their duties;
>
> Possibly. I think that they could invest imperium simply by receiving the
> message by the Pont Max--witnessing the event so to speak. I really think
> there should be some interaction by the Lictores though, if only to
> encourage participation in all facets of Nova Roma. A response to the Pont
> Max or even a public statement, "ita est."
>
> > --Where is the reference to thier duties in a ceremonial/
>
> The word "ceremonial" does not appear in the description in the
> Constitution. Reading their duties though makes it clear they are simply
> ceremonial.
>
> > I don't see that you are taking the heat for anything. It is true that
> > Merrullus and others have asked some rather pointe questions, but it is
> > certainly wthin your pervue to reply with some pointed answers. If
> > Germanicus is just getting around to supplying you with a list of
> > Lictors then the fault is his, not yours.
>
> I forgot completely about the Comitia Curiata until a few days ago. I
> should have reminded the Pontifex Maximus about this during the election
> and in the days leading up to announcing Sulla's election. In trying to
> make sure everything else went like clockwork, I overlooked the comitia
> curiata. My apologies. I hope I did not appear to be giving Cassius grief
> as well, it was not my intention. Like him, I am still trying to get used
> to the entire system. While I think we have done a good job so far in
> getting the new system in motion, we obviously have not perfected it yet.
> He has set the process in motion for the comitia curiata and the lictores
> will be contacted within a few days.
>
> Valete,
>
> Decius Iunius Palladius,
> Consul
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> "Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
> ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
>
> Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
>
> >
|
