| Subject: |
Re: Lictors |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:12:09 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, James Mathews wrote:
> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
>
Salve Marce Minuci Audens, Honored Candidate for Praetor,
> Take it easy old buddy, I was just asking sme questions. I'm on your
> side remember?? It seemed fairly clear to me what the problem is from
> your post and from Palladius' post. There are thirty Lictors, but no
> leader or organizer, so 30 Lictors have waited to be contacted not
> knowing that the onus of this organization job has been placed on you
> and you don't know who they are.
>
> Since the task of the Litors seems to be quite modest. I am not
> surprised at the lack of interest. No, there has been no contact among
> the Lictors to my knowledge except for the recent posts. Probably what
> is needed is a Lictor Centurian of some kind to keep all the lictors
> appraised of there duties and when thy will take place. I have some
> specific questions regarding the lictrs which you may ot be able to
> answer, but which I will ask anyway:
>
> --How many "Nos" would it take for the lictors to refuse Imperium to a
> Candidate?
The Constitution clearly states that the Lictors "invest elected and
appointed magistrates...without right of refusal individually or as a
body." There are no votes. Essentially, if the lictors were standing
together, they would watch the magistrates as they were invested with
imperium (perhaps watch as they assumed their badge of office).
> --Who are the Lictors/
Fortunatus quite helpfully posted all 30 of them in another message.
> --Do you think it necessary to have a Lictor Centurion / Optio to speak
> for the group in plannin for ceremonies using their presenace and
> explaining in detail their duties;
Possibly. I think that they could invest imperium simply by receiving the
message by the Pont Max--witnessing the event so to speak. I really think
there should be some interaction by the Lictores though, if only to
encourage participation in all facets of Nova Roma. A response to the Pont
Max or even a public statement, "ita est."
> --Where is the reference to thier duties in a ceremonial/
The word "ceremonial" does not appear in the description in the
Constitution. Reading their duties though makes it clear they are simply
ceremonial.
> I don't see that you are taking the heat for anything. It is true that
> Merrullus and others have asked some rather pointe questions, but it is
> certainly wthin your pervue to reply with some pointed answers. If
> Germanicus is just getting around to supplying you with a list of
> Lictors then the fault is his, not yours.
I forgot completely about the Comitia Curiata until a few days ago. I
should have reminded the Pontifex Maximus about this during the election
and in the days leading up to announcing Sulla's election. In trying to
make sure everything else went like clockwork, I overlooked the comitia
curiata. My apologies. I hope I did not appear to be giving Cassius grief
as well, it was not my intention. Like him, I am still trying to get used
to the entire system. While I think we have done a good job so far in
getting the new system in motion, we obviously have not perfected it yet.
He has set the process in motion for the comitia curiata and the lictores
will be contacted within a few days.
Valete,
Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Service Qualification for Magistracies |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:20:14 -0400 (EDT) |
|
This is a response I did a few days ago and never sent. I am sending it
now, after the debate seems to be over. Figures, huh? :)
On Wed, 22 Sep 1999, Antonio Grilo wrote:
> From: "Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
>
> Salvete
>
> I remind you that in some countries where not every citizen goes through
> military service. Portugal is an example. I and the majority of young men
> who were born in 1972/1973 were exempt from military service because the
> Portuguese Army had no need for more soldiers in that year of conscription.
> Does this mean that I won't have the possibility of being a Consul?
Salvete,
The United States is also a country that has not had military conscription
since the early '70s (at which time the protests against the war in
Vietnam miraculously stopped). The percentage of Americans who serve in
the military is fairly low. Personally, I think this is not necessarily a
good thing. Military service is an education in itself, more vital I have
found than my time working to get my undergraduate and graduate degrees.
Interpersonal skills and leadership skills for example are something not
stressed or academic setting. There are many jobs in which they can be
learned, certainly the military is only one place.
Anyway, I digress. Military service is *one* good way to judge a person's
character and backgound. And there is a defitite link between the
military and Nova Roma, though why that should be I don't know. Of
magistrates and senators, the following have served in the military:
Palladius, Germanicus, Audens, Cincinnatus, Gangalius, Flavia Claudia
(former senator and citizen), Fimbria as well as one of our possible
candidates for praetor (though he has not clearly stated he is a
candidate), Gaius Iunius Germanus (my apologies if I missed anyone). In my
gens alone there are 4 military veterans from the Marines, Army and the
Navy. I don't know why there is such a strong connection between Nova Roma
and the service, but it is there nonetheless.
Personally, as an American I believe that no one should be president
unless he or she has served in the military but that is me. One should
have been willing to put his or her life on the line first before sending
others into harms way. I kind of like the idea of Robert Heinlein's that
citizenship be earned by military service. If one doesn't serve, he
or she isn't eligible to vote or run for any kind of office (though he
also doesn't pay taxes).
All that being said however, in our virtual society it would be limiting
and difficult to enforce such a requirement.
I think the best way for us to test candidates is for them to prove
themselves here over time and the way to do that is to stick to the cursus
honorum if possible. Someone starts at the bottom and works his way
up--quaestor, praetor, consul, with a few sidesteps off the cursus honorum
sometimes-- between quaestor and praetor usually to serve as an aedile or
as a tribune of the plebs and after consul to serve as censor. People will
prove themselves to us by serving in these positions. For example, in the
current election, Marcus Minucius Audens, a candidate for praetor has made
himself known to the citizenry through his work in various positions since
joining Nova Roma and there are few who would question his qualifications
for the position. His opponent has served Nova Roma as well as aedile.
This is the way to prove oneself to Nova Roma.
Still, to continue my digression, the cursus honorum is a difficult
guideline to enforce at the moment. There are few ex-magistrates at the
moment and only a few people eligible to run for certain offices according
to the cursus honorum. People who could run for censor according to the
cursus honorum (former consuls)--Metellus, Sulla, Cassius. For consul
(former praetors or consuls who didn't serve this year)--Metellus,
Cassius, Germanicus, Cincinnatus, Magister and whoever wins the upcoming
race for praetor. For praetor--all those who have served in junior
magistracies, aediles, quaestors and tribunes. This is rather limiting at
this early stage. Not all of these people--maybe none of them--will
necessarily want to run for office and good people would be unable to run
not having held a position yet. So, while I think we should try to stick
by the cursus honorum as much as possible, it will be difficult.
Valete,
Decius Iunius Palladius
Consul
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Lictors |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:22:33 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, RCW wrote:
> From: "RCW" <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
>
> Salve, IMHO the Lictors would be like Notary Publics... :)
Salve,
Essentially, yes. As I put it in a message yesterday, the comitia curiata
as a *body* notarizes. They are not individual notaries, however.
Vale,
Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul
>
> Sulla
> Consul
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a>
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 1999 11:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Lictors
>
>
> > From: Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, James Mathews wrote:
> >
> > > From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
> > >
> >
> > Salve Marce Minuci Audens, Honored Candidate for Praetor,
> >
> > > Take it easy old buddy, I was just asking sme questions. I'm on your
> > > side remember?? It seemed fairly clear to me what the problem is from
> > > your post and from Palladius' post. There are thirty Lictors, but no
> > > leader or organizer, so 30 Lictors have waited to be contacted not
> > > knowing that the onus of this organization job has been placed on you
> > > and you don't know who they are.
> > >
> > > Since the task of the Litors seems to be quite modest. I am not
> > > surprised at the lack of interest. No, there has been no contact among
> > > the Lictors to my knowledge except for the recent posts. Probably what
> > > is needed is a Lictor Centurian of some kind to keep all the lictors
> > > appraised of there duties and when thy will take place. I have some
> > > specific questions regarding the lictrs which you may ot be able to
> > > answer, but which I will ask anyway:
> > >
> > > --How many "Nos" would it take for the lictors to refuse Imperium to a
> > > Candidate?
> >
> > The Constitution clearly states that the Lictors "invest elected and
> > appointed magistrates...without right of refusal individually or as a
> > body." There are no votes. Essentially, if the lictors were standing
> > together, they would watch the magistrates as they were invested with
> > imperium (perhaps watch as they assumed their badge of office).
> >
> > > --Who are the Lictors/
> >
> > Fortunatus quite helpfully posted all 30 of them in another message.
> >
> > > --Do you think it necessary to have a Lictor Centurion / Optio to speak
> > > for the group in plannin for ceremonies using their presenace and
> > > explaining in detail their duties;
> >
> > Possibly. I think that they could invest imperium simply by receiving the
> > message by the Pont Max--witnessing the event so to speak. I really think
> > there should be some interaction by the Lictores though, if only to
> > encourage participation in all facets of Nova Roma. A response to the Pont
> > Max or even a public statement, "ita est."
> >
> > > --Where is the reference to thier duties in a ceremonial/
> >
> > The word "ceremonial" does not appear in the description in the
> > Constitution. Reading their duties though makes it clear they are simply
> > ceremonial.
> >
> > > I don't see that you are taking the heat for anything. It is true that
> > > Merrullus and others have asked some rather pointe questions, but it is
> > > certainly wthin your pervue to reply with some pointed answers. If
> > > Germanicus is just getting around to supplying you with a list of
> > > Lictors then the fault is his, not yours.
> >
> > I forgot completely about the Comitia Curiata until a few days ago. I
> > should have reminded the Pontifex Maximus about this during the election
> > and in the days leading up to announcing Sulla's election. In trying to
> > make sure everything else went like clockwork, I overlooked the comitia
> > curiata. My apologies. I hope I did not appear to be giving Cassius grief
> > as well, it was not my intention. Like him, I am still trying to get used
> > to the entire system. While I think we have done a good job so far in
> > getting the new system in motion, we obviously have not perfected it yet.
> > He has set the process in motion for the comitia curiata and the lictores
> > will be contacted within a few days.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Decius Iunius Palladius,
> > Consul
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > "Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
> > ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
> >
> > Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
> >
> > >
>
> >
|
| Subject: |
Re: |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:31:59 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On 25 Se--------99 <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a> wrote:
> From: <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a>
>
> Salve,
Salve,
> My understanding of this is that the Curiata must be the ones to invest
> the imperium, but in the case of appointment of priests, adoptions, etc.
> they are only witnesses. "To invest" implys an action on the part of the
> Curiata rather than just an OK of the Pontifical investment, hence I
> would assume that the creation of the imperium would lie w/the Curiata.
> Of course, this may not be the case, the Constitution does not state who
> "creates" the imperium, but it does expressly state who must activly
> confer it. Should both lines read "To witness" than I would I agree with
> you, but there is a distinction made between the two. Now, the
> Constitution expressly says that the Curiata cannot deny imperium, so it
> is my interpretation that the Curiata is the only body that can confer
> imperium, and what good is the "creation" of imperium if you can't pass
> it on?
Well, other than reading a message stating that imperium is now invested
in so and so magistrates, and perhaps responding to that message saying,
"it is so," how do you suggest that imperium be conferred? It is not
something the comitia discusses, it is something it does. Any ideas? If we
were all in person, then perhaps something else could be done, maybe like
bopping the person on the side of the head and say, "you now have
imperium," but in the meanwhile... :)
Vale,
Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
|
| Subject: |
Re: |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 04:06:26 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On 26 Se--------99 <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a> wrote:
> From: <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a>
>
> Salve,
Salve,
> <<Well, other than reading a message stating that imperium is now invested
> in so and so magistrates, and perhaps responding to that message saying,
> "it is so," how do you suggest that imperium be conferred? It is not
> something the comitia discusses, it is something it does. >>
>
> And this is what I am think of...nothing extensive, but I would consider,
> in our virtual community, stating "it is so" to be an action. Hell, if
> all the members of the Curiata are in some way involved, then I'm happy.
This seems to me the best way for all 30 lictores to participate.
> What I was speaking against was the following:
>
> <<to at least symbolically link the invesment of Imperium to something more
> than a rubber stamp approval. After this the Pontificial College has already
> given assent that I may speak for them collectively to pronounce that
> Imperium has been conferred.>>
>
> All I am saying is that imperium must be conferred in one way or another,
> whether through a verbal nod, a rubber stamp, whatever, through the
> Comitia Curiata, not the Collegium Pontificum. The Constitution says so,
> and that's all there is to it. Now do you see what I am trying to say?
Absolutely. And you are right to ask questions and be concerned.
However, do not get Cassius' confusion over the process mixed up with a
move to deliberately circumvent proper procedure. He was not trying to
do that.
> <<Any ideas? If we
> were all in person, then perhaps something else could be done, maybe like
> bopping the person on the side of the head and say, "you now have
> imperium," but in the meanwhile... :)>>
>
> Well, Cassius mentioned he would be doing a ritual for the occasion,
> perhaps the Collegium Pontificum could research and proscribe a ritual
> specific to the members of the Curiata for exactly this purpose. (Of
> course that won't happen this time, but it's something to consider) We
> may not be able to do so in person, toghether as a group, but that does
> not justify us neglecting to perform the duties that should be required
> of us. The Curiata is indefinatly purely ceremonial, but it is my
> personal opinion that we should not make any ceremony or ceremonial
> position unimportant or unnecesary. What is imperium anyway? Is it a
> power invested with the Gods approval thru the ceremonial and ritual
> functions of the Comitia Curiata? Or is it just a word? Just some
> meaningless term one gets to use when elected, to make one feel
> powerful? Just curious...
It is the power to compel obedience to one's edicts and commands. I
think it comes from the people when they cast their vote for a victorious
candidate. They approve that imperium (think of it as their combined
power vested in a single person or persons) be conferred on the candidates
of their chosing.
Does it come ultimately from the Gods, hence the involvement of the
Pontifical College? I don't know. It obviously has religious connotations
as well. That sounds a bit too much like divine right of rule, which no
one can claim. Perhaps you are right when you say that it confers the
approval of the Gods though that is difficult to tell also.
Vale,
Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
|
| Subject: |
Re: Roman Ships |
| From: |
"Nicolaus Moravius" n_moravius@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 11:14:43 PDT |
|
Salvete, Audens et Maxime!
Thank you both for your information on carvel vs. clinker built ships.
|
| Subject: |
A few thoughts |
| From: |
Alasdair Morgan Gunn amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 17:26:55 -0700 |
|
Avete Omnes, Venator scripsit:
Primus: Qualifications for service - many have been the good suggestions. I
am a veteran myself - 4 yrs. Army Guard and 9 yrs. Air Force Reserve, both
U.S. ~(({;-{)
What I have noticed in my travels around Heathery and Paganry that the more
historically based, "retro-" recreationist groups do tend to attract more
veterans. They also tend to attract persons with a wide range of talents
and interests, who wish to accomplish deeds with which our grandchildren
will regale their grandchildren (oops, hyperbole attack). But, you get the
drift.Young people coming in without much life experience can be valuable
assets and the hallmark for Nova Roma shall be when She, like other
re-constructionist groups have the means to train leaders from within.
Right now, encourage those with a good level of host community experience in
group activities, but have some broad guidelines for that which is most
useful to our mutual purpose.
Secondus: Venator Viator - This weekend I once again traveled to a Germanic
Heathen gathering. It was at Gov. Dodge State Park, just a bit west of
Madison, WI. Once again I met a good bunch of fellow Germanii and Scandii,
all but one or two of which had not heard about the Nova Romanii. When I
explained about Nova Roma, plus my personal involvement, the reception was
favorable, even laudatory in a couple of cases. So, the knowledge of a new
Roman Republic and the reawakening of the Religio is getting more repute in
Germania and Scandia. The main Blot (Ritual) was to all the Gods and
Goddesses in thanks for the harvest and to acknowledge the turning from
Summer to Fall. We held the Blot on an outcropping, the peak of which
resembles a temple, fully 100 feet above the treetops below. The view was
magnificent as one looked across the forest and meadows below to the far
hills.
Tertius: Future - For us to be outwardly successful in the host community,
perhaps an "Ancient Times" renfaire type of activity could be something for
which to aim. I have some "real" re-enacting experience, plus the better
part of a quarter century in SCA-land. I was considering running to serve
as Curule Aedile for next year, so perhaps I can put this part of my
experience to the benefit of Nova Roma, and the wider Re-awakening
community. In a day or so, I'll type up a budget I did for an SCA tourney
feast, kind of give a taste of what this part (at least) is like.
mea duo sesterces - Venator
|
| Subject: |
Re: Re: Iterum de imperio |
| From: |
Alasdair Morgan Gunn amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 16:48:53 -0700 |
|
Salve summa honos Pontifex Maximus Marcus Cassius Iulianus,
Venator here:
I was appointed Lictor, and accepted such appointment. I haven't been
asking about the duties, as I figured the procedures were being hammered
out. I am willing to serve when the Curiata and its ways are set.
In Amicus - Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator, Cives etceteras
|
| Subject: |
OT - Marion Zimmer Bradley |
| From: |
Razenna razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 18:21:45 -0700 |
|
Salvete.
I am passing this information on. It will matter to a number of us.
Marion Zimmer Bradley passed quietly over last evening (9/25/99) at
6:40pm. at
Alta Bates Hospital in Berkeley, Ca. Marion introduced many people to
the world of paganism.
<a href="http://www.mzbfm.com/news.htm" target="_top" >http://www.mzbfm.com/news.htm</a>
Di deaque ament.
Adelandeyo
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.
Propraetor of California Provincia
Pontifex
Augur
Senator of Nova Roma
Paterfamilias of gens Aelia
|
| Subject: |
Re: OT - Marion Zimmer Bradley |
| From: |
Alasdair Morgan Gunn amgunn@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 20:45:46 -0700 |
|
Salvete,
Requisat in pacem, a fine author, a well respected human, no greater
epitaph.
Vale - Venator
>
> From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
>
> Salvete.
>
> I am passing this information on. It will matter to a number of us.
>
> Marion Zimmer Bradley passed quietly over last evening (9/25/99) at 6:40pm. at
> Alta Bates Hospital in Berkeley, Ca. Marion introduced many people to the world of
> paganism.
>
> <a href="http://www.mzbfm.com/news.htm" target="_top" >http://www.mzbfm.com/news.htm</a>
>
> Di deaque ament.
> Adelandeyo
> Valete.
>
> C. Aelius Ericius.
> Propraetor of California Provincia
> Pontifex
> Augur
> Senator of Nova Roma
> Paterfamilias of gens Aelia
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: A few thoughts |
| From: |
Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:20:58 -0400 (EDT) |
|
On Sun, 26 Sep 1999, Alasdair Morgan Gunn wrote:
> From: Alasda--------organ Gunn <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015056190036129" >amgunn@--------</a>
>
> Avete Omnes, Venator scripsit:
>
> Primus: Qualifications for service - many have been the good suggestions. I
> am a veteran myself - 4 yrs. Army Guard and 9 yrs. Air Force Reserve, both
> U.S. ~(({;-{)
> What I have noticed in my travels around Heathery and Paganry that the more
> historically based, "retro-" recreationist groups do tend to attract more
> veterans.
My apologies to Venator! When I made my list of magistrates and senators
who also have military service, I left you out. I also left out Ericius, a
veteran of the U.S. Navy. It's really quite a long list of veterans who
have played a strong rold in Nova Roma. I find the connection quite
interesting in itself, leaving aside any question of military service as a
prerequisite for service as a magistrate.
Vale,
Decius Iunius Palladius
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus
|
