Subject:	Re: NOVA ROMA FOCUS
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:42:50 -0500 (CDT)

In reading the preamble to our constitution, I keep on reading where
it says primary function--- to the affect of promoting the study and
practice of pagan Roman civilization. Yes, we accept everyone according
to our constitution regardless of religious belief. Yet our objective
according to the constitution as I read it is primarily pagan and as has
been often discussed in ancient Rome and organizationally here too there
is no seperation between church and state. My interpretation of it
concludes that this organization is here to both promote the study of
ancient Rome and the promotion of the nation/state-- in all reality the
Religio Romana. I don't see much difference between Nova Roma and the
Mormons except for the fact that we do accept everyone as a means of
better promoting the ideals of the nation/state in the modern contexts
of the world.

The importance of the study of ancient Rome is because it was a
model of ideals, a model of modern Western civilization and unity and a
model of advanced government. I have no problem with people interested
in reenactment or collectors, historians or just about anything. Anyone
who wishes to persue those activities have always been welcome here as
everyone has. If our focus though does not remain religious in nature as
a primary goal, then I really wonder what it is we should be doing---
and at least from me reevaluate my own level of commitment. This doesn't
mean I would resign anything, but I would be thinking quite differently
about Nova Roma, voting in the Senate, etc. with the intentions of
bettering the organizational abilities of a study group that happens to
have some pagans participating in it. Tell me it aint so.

I'm just throwing these things across to see what others here
think. Too bad this all has to be done via email as it takes 10x longer
to debate stuff vs. live or teleconference. Anyway, while somebody or
other possibly types a response to this-- hopefully talking about what
they interpret as the focus of Nova Roma, I'm going to crawl away to bed
and finally get some sleep. But first a night(day)cap-----as I now need
one or two-----CHEERS!

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Re: Bank card was Macellum
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:43:46 EDT

In a message dated 10/12/99 5:05:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a> writes:

<< If I were making the rules, I would suggest that we PREFER business
partners with products that have some tie to Nova Roma, rather than
REQUIRING it. What if a major bank were interested in sponsoring
our activities? (A remote but pleasant possibility, given the low
level of actual educational or cultural work we've been doing.)
>>
Salve Patricia Cassia
Great idea! We can get a bank to issue an NR credit card, 1% of the interest
rate goes back into the organization. I can see it now, the facade of the
Senate house in the forum on the card. If the powers that be would have
interest in this idea, I'll investigate further. My cousin is involved in
banking. Actually owns a small San Diego bank. He's issued credit cards for
bird watching groups, with birds on the card.
Vale
Q. Fabius

Subject:	Re: NOVA ROMA FOCUS
From:	Marius Fimbria legion6@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:09:19 -0500 (CDT)

Salve, Druse Domitiane, et salvete omnes...

I hope nobody minds me posting to the NovaRoma List. I'd been in the
habit of doing that from time to time, and I saw no reason to stop once
I became ListMod...[wry smile]

Hmm, perhaps a disclaimer is in order. Very well: 'The following is
the sententia of L Marius Fimbria only, and does not represent nor
claim to represent the official views of Nova Roma, Nova Roma Inc., or
the NovaRoma OneList.' Howzat? (Can any lawyer-types help me draft a
better one?)

Okay, now on to the actual post:

Scripsit Domitianus:
>In reading the preamble to our constitution, I keep on reading where
>it says primary function--- to the affect of promoting the study and
>practice of pagan Roman civilization.

He then goes on to say that he reads this mission statement to mean
that Nova Roma's primary focus is a religious one, and if something has
changed he'd like to be notified so that he may adjust his perspective
accordingly.

I can see where Domitianus might get that impression; but I read the
same paragraph, and to me it suggests a broader focus than solely the
Religio. People keep getting hung up on the word 'pagan'...the whole
phrase is 'pagan Roman civilization', and it needs to be taken as a
whole. So what does it mean to me?

First, it means 'pagan Roman civilization' as opposed to 'Christian
Roman civilization', as for example that of Byzantium, or of the whole
Papal-states thing that grew up around the Mother City itself in the
early Middle Ages. So, basically, Nova Roma is attempting to revive
Roman civilization as it existed before, say, the era of Constantine.
(The sentence in question even goes on to say that 'pagan Roman
civilization' is '...defined as the period from the founding of the
City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the Altar of Victory from the
Senate in 394 CE', thus making it clear, to my reading at least, that
'pagan' as used in this sentence refers to a period of time, not to a
system of belief.)

Second, it means Roman civilization as a whole, including but certainly
not restricted to the ancient Religio. If the Constitution had meant
'pagan Roman religion' only or primarily, I think it would have said
so; instead, the sentence in question ends with '...and encompassing
such fields as religion [yes], culture, politics, art, literature,
language, and philosophy.'

Culture is more than religion, although religion certainly plays a
vital part; and Domitianus is absolutely right when he points out that
in the case of Roman culture, the religious aspect was present in and
indwelt all the rest. For this reason the Religio gets and deserves
special attention in Nova Roma. But the Religio needs the culture just
as much as the culture needs the Religio; and while I can't be much
help on religious matters directly, I've gone all-out to promote the
culture in general. Thus do even those of us not of the Religio at
least help create an environment where the Religio can flourish.

This brings me to my point. Throughout the Nova Roma Web site, equal
primacy is given to both the Via Romana (which I practice) and the
Religio Romana (which I do not). Yet while the reconstruction of the
Religio proceeds apace, it seems we hardly ever talk about the Via. I
think Cincinnatus posted a series of articles on the Roman Virtues on
either this or another List, way back when; and we've had some good
discussion on patron/client or at least some sort of mentoring program.
We have a couple of craftsmen who have set up shop in the Macellum.
We have expressed a willingness to 'sponsor' the educational ventures
of reenactor Legions (and presumably civilian groups as well; I know of
a couple of travelling troupes of Roman players, like Omnia in Europe).
But, overall, I'd have to say that the Roman *cultural* context (as
opposed to the structural context, i.e. the institutions of government)
is still somewhat missing-in-action. And we spend a lot more time
quarreling about the details of government and religion than we do
sharing our pursuits of Roman activities, projects and interests in a
way that might enhance our own and each others' Romanitas.

>I have no problem with people interested in reenactment or collectors,
>historians or just about anything. Anyone who wishes to pursue those
>activities have always been welcome here as everyone has. If our focus
>though does not remain religious in nature as a primary goal, then I
>really wonder what it is we should be doing---and at least from me
>reevaluate my own level of commitment. This doesn't mean I would
>resign anything, but I would be thinking quite differently about Nova
>Roma, voting in the Senate, etc. with the intentions of bettering the
>organizational abilities of a study group that happens to have some
>pagans participating in it. Tell me it aint so.

It ain't so. For one, the presence and participation of Roman Pagans
is not a casual byproduct of our efforts; it is part of the whole point
of the organization. But only part. 'As a nation, Nova Roma shall be
the temporal homeland and worldly focus for the Religio Romana.' That
comes right before the sentence about the primary functions of Nova
Roma. For another, said primary functions are stated to be 'the study
*and practice*' [emphasis mine] of ancient Roman, pre-Constantinian
culture. So we'll never be just a study-and-discussion group, either.
As several Citizens have pointed out in the past, there are plenty of
classical-studies groups out there. We come to Nova Roma instead
because we are not interested in merely studying ancient Rome...we
desire to live it and revive it to the extent possible in the modern
era. This is what my life has been about for the last eight and a half
years. I came here seeking fellow-travellers on my Roman journey. I
cannot get that anywhere else but here.

>I'm just throwing these things across to see what others here
>think.

Same here. I hope I haven't come across as dogmatic or anything, and I
apologize if I have. I present this as an ordinary Citizen, entitled
like anybody else to speak in our public places; my word on anything
should not be taken as the be-all and end-all of the discussion. Do
please let's continue to talk about this! Like Bill Cosby used to say
on his cartoon show, 'If you ain't careful, you just might learn
something before you're through!' >({|;-)

In amicitia et fides,
************************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |>[SPQR]<|
mka Märia Villarroel |\=/|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Roman Historical Re-Creationist `\*/, ``}`^~``,,, \ \
and Citizen of Nova Roma ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman... It's hard work, _|_| / _/_| /`(
but SOMEbody's gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'

Subject:	Re: Macellum
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:29:17 -0700 (PDT)

--- <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a> wrote:
>
> Most nonprofit organizations eagerly seek
> partnerships with businesses,
> as does Nova Roma. But very few would seek such a
> partnership with ANY
> business, preferring instead to pursue those who
> share the
> organization's general values. I think it only right
> that those who
> govern Nova Roma choose our commercial partners with
> care.
>

The point was not allowing *ANY* business on the site,
but 1) *ANY* business selling Ancient or Roman-related
merchandise AND willing to kick back a little to the
NR treasury;

AND

2) *ANY* business RUN BY A NOVA ROMAN CITIZEN even if
it had no specific ties to Ancient or Roman-related
merchandise AND willing to kick back a little to the
NR treasury.

So, if Bill Gates joins Nova Roma as a citizen, and
wants to sell ALL Microsoft products on the NR website
(and ONLY on the NR website!) in return for kicking
back 20% of the sales to the Nova Roman treasury, I
guess we'd say "Sorry, Bill, Roman merchandise only!"
under the current rules?

L. Licinius Varro Murena

Subject:	Focus
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:28:47 -0400

Salvete cives

Patricia Cassia says "Our goal (unless it's changed
while I was off the list) is promoting greater knowledge of and
appreciation for the history, culture and customs of ancient Rome"

C Drusus Domitianus says "primary function--- to the affect of promoting the
study and
practice of pagan Roman civilization...our objective
according to the constitution as I read it is primarily pagan and as has
been often discussed in ancient Rome and organizationally here too there
is no seperation between church and state"

I think that both of you are right. And I'll add more:

I think that Nova Roma is an attempt to build a new nation, based on the
ancient Roman Republic, adopting as many of the ancient republic's
institutions as feasible, as fully as possible. If this is so, we shall
forever be confused by the modern concepts of "state" and "church", because
it seems that both things had their analogs in Roma itself, for the Romans.
Being modern people, we all know the two concepts and have lived in the
state of their separation; now we're trying, deliberately, to blur the
distinction within our new nation. It won't be easy, but I look forward to
facing the challenge with all of you for the rest of our days.

It also seems to me that a nation, even if it only has a handful of
citizens, is too big a thing to have one goal, and so there would seem to be
room for differing interpretations of our objectives, certainly to the
inclusion of both promoting knowledge of Roman civilization and of
re-building the practice of Religio Romana. And there's probably more to it
than even those two big things.

Valete

C Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: NOVA ROMA FOCUS
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:38:53 -0700 (PDT)

--- Dean Troy <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> --------e:
>
> In reading the preamble to our constitution, I
> keep on reading where
> it says primary function--- to the affect of
> promoting the study and
> practice of pagan Roman civilization. Yes, we accept
> everyone according
> to our constitution regardless of religious belief.
> Yet our objective
> according to the constitution as I read it is
> primarily pagan and as has
> been often discussed in ancient Rome and
> organizationally here too there
> is no seperation between church and state. My
> interpretation of it
> concludes that this organization is here to both
> promote the study of
> ancient Rome and the promotion of the nation/state--
> in all reality the
> Religio Romana. I don't see much difference between
> Nova Roma and the
> Mormons except for the fact that we do accept
> everyone as a means of
> better promoting the ideals of the nation/state in
> the modern contexts
> of the world.
>
> The importance of the study of ancient Rome is
> because it was a
> model of ideals, a model of modern Western
> civilization and unity and a
> model of advanced government.

"Advanced Government"? I'd hardly call it that
(especially during the Principate and the Dominate).

I have no problem with
> people interested
> in reenactment or collectors, historians or just
> about anything. Anyone
> who wishes to persue those activities have always
> been welcome here as
> everyone has. If our focus though does not remain
> religious in nature as
> a primary goal, then I really wonder what it is we
> should be doing---
> and at least from me reevaluate my own level of
> commitment. This doesn't
> mean I would resign anything, but I would be
> thinking quite differently
> about Nova Roma, voting in the Senate, etc. with the
> intentions of
> bettering the organizational abilities of a study
> group that happens to
> have some pagans participating in it. Tell me it
> aint so.

The religio is why I was attracted in the first place.
Though now I'm re-evaluating my committment because of
this lack of focus. Doubtless many of the non-pagans
(and perhaps pagans too) would welcome this. This will
probably be one of my last communications to the list
for a while.

Vale.
L. Licinius Varro Murena

Subject:	Re: Re: NOVA ROMA FOCUS
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:50:27 -0700 (PDT)

--- Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> wrote:
> Yet while the
> reconstruction of the
> Religio proceeds apace, it seems we hardly ever talk
> about the Via. I
> think Cincinnatus posted a series of articles on the
> Roman Virtues on
> either this or another List, way back when; and
> we've had some good
> discussion on patron/client or at least some sort of
> mentoring program.

Well, I tried to talk about sexism in both Nova Roma
and Roma Antiqua, and despite my years of education in
a variety of disciplines, I was shot down as being
generally deluded in imagining that either Nova Roma
or Roma Antiqua were "sexist". It seems that many of
the citizens talk about following the Via Romana, but
few do so in practice.

L. Licinius Varro Murena

Subject:	Re: Magistrates
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:06:37 -0700 (PDT)

--- James Mathe--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------e:
> To, L.Varro Murena
>
> you wrote:"---others (magistrates) seem mostly
> involved in running for
> office, boasting of thier qulifications, running
> other candidates
> down----"
>
> In regard to your comments,, it may have escaped
> your notice, ,but this
> is a declared and quite proper campaign for office.
> It not only occurs
> in Nova Roma, but in the United States and any other
> country having an
> elected government on periodic occasions. During
> such campaigns the
> style is generally very similar. .Both candidates
> have listed thier
> qualifications which is also quite usual,as well as
> useful for the
> voters. Several of these voters have already
> commented favorably upon
> this campaign.

Does that include the smear tactics used by certain
candidates and their supporters?

>
> If you have any practical ideas about running a
> campaign without these
> various required items, perhaps you would confide in
> us.
>

Perhaps instead of insulting the qualifications of
one's opponents, you simply talk about your own and
your vision for Nova Roma, along with its problems and
how you think the citizens should address them.

> I must however, disagree, that the magistrates have
> been guilty of
> anything improper. As a matter of fact, it seems to
> me that certain
> given magistrates have been responding to your ideas
> with detailed
> patient expanations which you apparently have
> brushed asde as irrevelant
> or untrue. Now you may of course say what you wish
> to about me, but
> you have for some reason have not done so., However,
> to fasten onto and
> accuse magistrates of taking time from thier dutues
> to provide answers
> to your questions, and then to scorn the answers
> seems to me to be
> somewhat rude.

Ah, I see, this is the rub. This is not a Republic,
but a Dominate. The citizens are simply to accept
whatever the magistrates (or the candidates) say on a
given matter. "Oh, thank you Dominus for your pearls
of wisdom! Thank you for taking the time from your
busy schedule to deign to answer the questions of a
lowly cives!"

Many of the answers I have been receiving are in fact
not on point, and if I disagree with those that are on
point, I'm going to say so as long as I have breath in
my body. If the nobiles don't like that, that's their
tough luck. Answering the concerns of the citizens is
part of their job. That's why we elect you. You are
the servants of the Res Publica. And just because you
say something doesn't mean that it 1) answers our
questions; 2) is right; 3) we must accept whatever you
say.

>
> You have made several suggestion, which have been
> met with answers which
> you do not like. Then in that case, I recommend
> that you get several
> people together and propose a specific change to NR
> polocies, with some
> specific goals in mind.

I have already done so, but my ideas have been
repeatedly dismissed--which is your right to do so as
a Nova Roman citizen.


You have offered to review
> a book as a
> beginning; ----do it.

I'm posting it today to the religio list.


You have indicated that you
> do not know how to
> increase the Macellum's efficiency and that you do
> not have the time for
> such. Apparently niether does anyone else--Sorry,
> but that's the way it
> goes sometimes!!

Great answer, especially from a candidatus. Actually,
I have made several suggestions to increase the
Macellum's efficiency. I do not wish to start a
business, and that is my prerogative.

>
> I am sure that when or if I ever rise to the
> position of a Magistrate
> that you will criticize my actions as well, and that
> is certainly your
> priveledge, since it will be part of my job, at that
> time, to take those
> kind of remarks and to be polite in spite of them.

Well, thanks for the implied insult. And to imagine I
actually voted for you! Guess I should have voted for
"Nemo" after all!

L. Licinius Varro Murena

Subject:	Re: Magistrates
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:27:48 +0100

Salvete

>Does that include the smear tactics used by certain
>candidates and their supporters?
Campaigning is campaigning. We just have to take it with a sense of humour.
Maybe you are not used to it in the US, but here in southern Europe, those
smear tactics are the norm =). For me there were no better elections than
those of last year when I lost the running for Tribune! By that time I was
even insulted both publicly and privately... Well, that was like the
elections in ancient Rome, right? LOL

Valete

Antonius Gryllus Graecus

Subject:	Saturnalia -- again
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:39:13 -0500

Salvete,

While Fabius had a wonderful reply to my question of modern
Saturnalia ideas, it is hardly enough to fill a web site. So I ask
again:

Would anyone like to share their ideas, rituals, etc for Saturnalia.

House decoration ideas
Baking ideas
Meal ideas
Ritual ideas

If no one can help me, please let me know and I'll wing it.

Crystallina Materna

Subject:	Re: Magistrates
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:52:56 -0400

Salvete L Licini et Antoni Grylle et alii

I haven't even seen anything like smear tactics in this campaign. While
Fabius and Audens have not devoted their posts to extolling each other's
virtues, and pointing out each other's strengths (although they have
acknowledged such from time to time), they have not negatively attacked each
other either.

An election contest is just that, a contest. Opposing candidates oppose
each other. Sometimes personal decisions and actions (Fabius' religious
perspective, Audens' re-thought resignation exempli gratia) become the
subject of the discourse. As long as there is no mudslingling, lying or
character assasination, what's the harm?

I think that both candidates are conducting themselves well. In that
respect, this is shaping up to be the best election that we have had yet,
though it perhaps lacks the color of Graecus' campaign for Tribunus :).

Valete

C Marius Merullus
rogator



>From: "Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
>
>Salvete
>
>>Does that include the smear tactics used by certain
>>candidates and their supporters?
>Campaigning is campaigning. We just have to take it with a sense of humour.
>Maybe you are not used to it in the US, but here in southern Europe, those
>smear tactics are the norm =). For me there were no better elections than
>those of last year when I lost the running for Tribune! By that time I was
>even insulted both publicly and privately... Well, that was like the
>elections in ancient Rome, right? LOL
>
>Valete
>
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus

Subject:	Re: Bank card was Macellum
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:51:47 -0700

On a previous e-mail that I wrote...this was one of the things I wrote about on
my Masters Thesis. I do have some marketing information on this.....if anyone is
interested I would be more than pleased to share this. Since one of my
businesses was a Lending Institution. The Term for creating a Credit Card with a
backer, like Household Finance is called Co-Branded Partnering.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------; wrote:

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 10/12/99 5:05:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a> writes:
>
> << If I were making the rules, I would suggest that we PREFER business
> partners with products that have some tie to Nova Roma, rather than
> REQUIRING it. What if a major bank were interested in sponsoring
> our activities? (A remote but pleasant possibility, given the low
> level of actual educational or cultural work we've been doing.)
> >>
> Salve Patricia Cassia
> Great idea! We can get a bank to issue an NR credit card, 1% of the interest
> rate goes back into the organization. I can see it now, the facade of the
> Senate house in the forum on the card. If the powers that be would have
> interest in this idea, I'll investigate further. My cousin is involved in
> banking. Actually owns a small San Diego bank. He's issued credit cards for
> bird watching groups, with birds on the card.
> Vale
> Q. Fabius
>
>

Subject:	Fw: [religio] Book Review
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:31:31 -0400

Salvete omnes

I forward this with Murena's permission.

Valete

C Marius Merullus


>From: JSA <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=081166091180193192130061163101147165026048139046" >varromurena@--------</a>
>
>Here is a review of a book on Roman Religio. Perhaps
>someday it will appear on the Book Sale page of the
>Macellum and be linked to Amazon.com.
>
>Ariadne Staples. _From Good Goddess to Vestal
>Virgins: Sex and Category in Roman Religion_. London:
>Routledge, 1998. x + 207 pp.
>
>A revised version of a doctoral dissertation, this
>study is "about how religion constructed and defined
>women; how Roman cults and rituals both created and
>reflected a society's perception of its female
>members" (p. 2). The central contention is that
>Roman women played a central and vital role in Roman
>religion. Though this is a great contribution to
>both Roman history and gender studies, it is, however,
>not a study I would recommend to those just starting
>out in the religio. While the study does look
>in detail at the Roman cults of Bona Dea, Ceres,
>Flora, Venus, and Vesta, the emphasis throughout is
>on the construction of gender roles; in other words,
>there is very little that a beginning practitioner can
>glean regarding the worship of these deities. For more
>advance practitioners, especially those in the cults
>examined in this study, I would heartily recommend it
>for a fuller understanding of the religio. The section
>on Vesta, however, is especially useful.
>
>L. Licinius Varro Murena

Subject:	Re: Hellenicn
From:	"Kyrene" kyrene@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:36:33 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: James Mathe--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 9:10 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Hellenicn


> To, G.D. Domitianus;
> Just out of curiosity and not out of criticism, what attributes would
> you cite for your opinion about the subject institution and what are
> your ideas about the improvement of such in NR.??

Salve,

Was "Hellenion" what you meant in the above title? If so, I'd be curious to
know what was said as well, as I missed it. Any constructive criticism of
the org would be wonderful, as we're just getting started and haven't really
even gotten our feet wet yet. :)




Vale et khaire,


-Kyrinia



-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-

Subject:	Re: NOVA ROMA FOCUS
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:17:17 EDT

In a message dated 10/12/99 12:38:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, L. Licinius
Varro Murena (<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=081166091180193192130061163101147165026048139046" >varromurena@--------</a>) writes:

<<
The religio is why I was attracted in the first place.
Though now I'm re-evaluating my committment because of
this lack of focus. Doubtless many of the non-pagans
(and perhaps pagans too) would welcome this. This will
probably be one of my last communications to the list
for a while.
>>

Salve,

If you came to Nova Roma for the Religio Romana, you might want to try being
involved with the Religio Romana, rather than expecting it to seek you out on
the central list for communication.

Please do feel free to contact the Pontificial College if you have concerns
about the religio. Or, better yet, if you wish to undertake a priesthood or
perhaps be involved in study to help reconstruct rites, etc. Your dedication
and pietas will certainly be welcomed.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

Subject:	Re: Focus
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:52:22 EDT

Salvete,

Well I'll be! I didn't think it was possible, but Merullus has made a post to
which I agree completely. Who woulda thunk it?

Nova Roma incorporates both secular and religious elements for a very good
reason, neither can be truly Roman without the other. A "Roman religious
organization" can be sincere, but it can't be a true reconstruction of the
ancient Religio Romana without the various aspects of secular government to
give it boundaries and structure. The Religio Romana without a Roman
government is rather like "force without form".

On the other hand, one can't truly reconstruct a working Republican Roman
government without the Religio. Sure, you can use a bunch of Latin names and
make up a bunch of laws, but the *intent* isn't the same. It becomes an
exercise in play-acting... "form, without force".

At present I believe we've managed a workable blending of the two, precisely
because NO ONE seems to be completely satisfied. The religious folks are
going "Hey, what happened to the Religio?" (Especially when the sit back and
expect the majority of posts on the main list to have religious content.)
Meanwhile, the political and law folks are going "Hey, why are we cluttering
up the place with all this religious stuff?" (Especially if they suddenly
believe we're a complete theocracy every time the Gods get mentioned on the
list.) Merullus had an excellent point when he mentioned that people are
being confused by *modern* standards of separation of church and state.

The neat thing about Nova Roma is that there is plenty of room to pursue
individual interests. If you're here only for the Religio, for pity's sake,
become actively involved in the religion. Apply for priesthood, volunteer to
participate in research, whatever. The Religio is NOT going to happen
entirely on the Nova Roma Email list. Conversely, if you're interested only
in law or politics, run for office, or volunteer your time. Not all the
governmental work is going to be done on the NR list either... this is after
all simply a forum for discussion and communication.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

In a message dated 10/12/99 12:32:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> writes:

<<
Salvete cives

Patricia Cassia says "Our goal (unless it's changed
while I was off the list) is promoting greater knowledge of and
appreciation for the history, culture and customs of ancient Rome"

C Drusus Domitianus says "primary function--- to the affect of promoting the
study and
practice of pagan Roman civilization...our objective
according to the constitution as I read it is primarily pagan and as has
been often discussed in ancient Rome and organizationally here too there
is no seperation between church and state"

I think that both of you are right. And I'll add more:

I think that Nova Roma is an attempt to build a new nation, based on the
ancient Roman Republic, adopting as many of the ancient republic's
institutions as feasible, as fully as possible. If this is so, we shall
forever be confused by the modern concepts of "state" and "church", because
it seems that both things had their analogs in Roma itself, for the Romans.
Being modern people, we all know the two concepts and have lived in the
state of their separation; now we're trying, deliberately, to blur the
distinction within our new nation. It won't be easy, but I look forward to
facing the challenge with all of you for the rest of our days.

It also seems to me that a nation, even if it only has a handful of
citizens, is too big a thing to have one goal, and so there would seem to be
room for differing interpretations of our objectives, certainly to the
inclusion of both promoting knowledge of Roman civilization and of
re-building the practice of Religio Romana. And there's probably more to it
than even those two big things.

Valete

C Marius Merullus >>