Forum Romanum


Subject:	Ordo Equester, Taxes etc
From:	hadji hadji@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:47:06 +0100

Salvete Qvirites,

Due to the discussion about Ordo Equester, I decided to join in.
Although I can imagine with difficulties only any transfer of Roman
"goods" and money between Europe (especially hers eastern parts -
because of the very specific postal and bank services) and Orbis Novum,
I would like to offer some late bronze coins of mine. Never mind there
will be no real transfers of money here and there, the only presence of
new persons on the NR markets will be a good thing and will make this
market more noisy and non-letargic.
I have got a special interest to offer some Constantine bronzes as I
want to provoke republican feelings of our NR friends. I sympathize with
their feelings, but do not share them complete.
Due to the Ordo Equester, I would like to ask if there is a list
possibility to present what we offer without any web sites, as I haven't
got any experiences with such a sites. If yes, I will present there a
list of my Constantie bronzes.

Valete

Alexander I.C. Probus

P.S. I would like to suggest to use the term "New Sestercii" instead of
"Dollars".


Subject:	Re: Re: Focus
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 03:10:50 -0500 (CDT)

Again, it is exactly because of any seperation of church and
state that Nova Roma can indeed liken itself to such groups as the
Mormons (in a way) and the state if Israel (more so), etc. It is exactly
on this arguement which I say that we can't allow ourselves to restrict
business commerce to that pertaining to only ancient Rome. If this is
truly a modern nation of people interested in endorsing ourselves to a
point of potential influence in the far future as a serious and landed
state/religious center we must leave open all avenues of potential
progress--- financial, spiritual, etc. etc. completely open. If we're
going to do anything at all, let's do it right. The idea is to make
money for the sake of making money so that we-- Nova Roma can do
something with it. Does it necessarily have to go on our main web
page?-- maybe not but NR should be open to sound financial investment
ideas with a lot of forethought and backing from sound administrators.
Nova Roma can go beyond this list and our websight.

Creating opportunities for supportive businesses on the web or in
real time/life could be reality one day. Considering such support, these
same merchants would have every right to be considered part of the
equestrian order if I should beg to go that far.

Granted, at this time we don't have very much going on. What I'm
doing is argueing the foundations for our monetary system. All I've been
saying is let's not put up any major walls to hinder our progress.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	Re: Hellenicn
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 08:31:46 -0400 (EDT)

Kyrinia;

Unfortunately, I have discarded the message to which you refer, but it
was written by G.D. Domitianus I believe. Perhaps you will be able to
get the information from him

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Roman businesses - Disagreement
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:53:36 EDT

In a message dated 10/11/99 3:55:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> --------es:

Drusus:
I have to go and say that I couldn't disagree more on the issue of
gaining funds through all business possibilities except what was noted--
pyramid multi-level marketing schemes, weight loss programs, time share
rentals,etc. Here is the problem:

Cassius:
Let me ask you this. The most serious "non-Roman" business application the
Censors have ever received was for an adult business, selling vibrating
dildoes, rubber penises, anal toys, crotchless panties, cockrings, bondage
devices, etc. Would YOU really want to see a section for this sitting on our
website right next to the link for our Constitution, or the Religio Romana?

I didn't mind that such a business existed, that wasn't the point. The point
was that it could only have detracted from the overall message of Nova Roma.
It just wasn't appropriate to have on our main site, which is in effect right
now our world headquarters.

Drusus:
> This is not the SCA or an historical society although our
citizenship includes both and in this place-Nova Roma we have the
opportunity to explore these interests with others here. Nova Roma is
actually as I see it a set of ancient ideals set to the modern world
with the focus of promoting the Religio Romana to the modern world in a
modern way.

Cassius:
You are right that Nova Roma is not just a reenactor club or a historical
society. Nova Roma is a micronation dedicated to the ideal that the best and
most positive aspects of Classical Roman civilization should be restored in
the modern world. While this doesn't limit us to ancient "stuff" only, it
DOES mean that we have a clear focus. We have to use some discretion to make
sure this focus doesn't get lost.

Drusus:
>As this is a nation state and not merely a historical
society we must NEVER limit the business of any kind just as any other
nation/state would not.

Cassius:
If we were talking about a country with land and the necessity for everyday
commerce to keep our Citizens alive, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately all we
have right now is a central website which we should keep as clear and
on-topic as possible. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it... if you
don't play to the interests of your market, you lose it.

Drusus:
If any would like an example of this, the guess
would be to look at either the Mormons in Utah or the State of Israel---
both steeped in their own history but a part of totally MODERN society,
doing business and conducting life and catering to modern people.

Cassius:
Of course they do modern business... they have physical cities to run! You're
using their total world as an example, and comparing it to our one central
place for communication. Sure, the Mormons and Israel are conducting business
and catering to modern people. However, they're not doing it in the
Synagogues, or the Mormon churches, or inside their governmental buildings.
They have facilities for such things that we just don't at this stage.

Drusus:
>Do the
Mormons limit business contractions between themselves to 19th century
western ware?

Cassius:
No. But unless we suddenly have land and a full scale city that nobody has
been telling me about, it's impossible for you to make fair comparisons. At
this early stage we only have a few people. We're trying to attract more.
That is something that won't happen if we bury our cultural message under the
same sort of commercial or advertising spam that people are already subjected
to far too much of on the Internet.

Drusus:
> My belief is that when Nova Roma limits itself to the only
historical or role-play SCA type of interests in any way, we also dash
hopes of the Religio Romana taking a serious step toward becoming a
respected path within world religions.

Cassius:
Perhaps you're confusing two separate issues here. Commerce is commerce, and
the Religio is something else again. What you SEEM to be saying, is that if
we don't sell televisions and Avon cosmetics through the Nova Roma site, the
Religio Romana won't be taken as a serious religion. I confess that
connection makes no sense to me at all.

We're not saying we don't LIKE televisions, or Avon Cosmetics. (Er, well...)
We're not suddenly Amish people who refuse to be part of the modern world.
All that's been said here is that we don't want to clutter up our main
website with stuff that can only drown out our message.

Drusus:
>We live in a modern world and are
modern people.

Cassius:
That's right. And, since we have a large presence on the Internet, and all
pretty obviously have modern jobs and lives, we're not in any danger of
suddenly being perceived as Amish hermits or Luddites. This means we don't
need to sell Beanie Babies and Pokemon on our site to prove to the world that
our Religion is valid.

Drusus:
>Nova Roma is about ideals and a better form of
governmental system, along with the promotion and integration of the
Religio Romana. I understand concerns to the contrary as far as diluting
interest but I think that assessment is wrong. These ideals (the virtues
among others) are for a world wide audience of modern people and the
Religio Romana is a modern path based from ancient religion.

Cassius:
The Virtues and other aspects of Roman civilization ARE for a wide audience
of modern people. That is precisely why we're hoping to preserve a strong and
clear message on the main site which focuses on Roman things. Right now the
Nova Roma site is getting acceptance as a good resource for things Roman. The
more we dilute that with spam the less impact we'll make.

Drusus:
I believe
that we have created/evolved the nation/state here to better serve that
interest while allowing everyone to participate within thier own
particular realms of interest/amusement. Business must be conducted and
funds acquired the same way as any other modern state. My view.

Cassius:
Once again, this really hasn't been a great issue in any case. The Censors
have only declined two businesses from the Macellum, and BOTH those
businesses were told that they would be accepted if they could adapt some
on-topic content. They were even provided ideas as to how this could be done.

No one has said that modern commerce can *never* have a place in Nova Roman
society. Surely modern business will be included as we grow and are able to
maintain different forums for different purposes. All that has been said is
that we're trying to keep a Roman focus to our main site, and encourage the
creation of Roman oriented businesses first and foremost.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator


Subject:	Re:
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:22:03 EDT

In a message dated 10/13/99 6:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a> writes:

<< On reflection, it seems to me that Nova Roma's women have ended up in
positions of practical use rather than high status. The e-mail list,
Web site and treasury are now managed by women.

I'm not sure whether this says anything about the sexes in general, or
whether it simply reflects the choices each of us has made with regard
to our level of commitment to Nova Roma.>>
Salve Patricia Cassia!
Are you saying that women in NR are nothing more then glorified secretaries?
Don't fear about that. The WEB site is our most important asset, without it
there is no NR. The treasury will grow in importance, once we figure out a
fair way to fund it, and the list mistress has so much power that non
citizens believe that she can censor content. I'd say three women are in
very powerful positions in NR.

In early Rome itself, women were pretty much property. By the late republic
though this was changing. Women were shedding husbands, having affairs,
managing their lives. Not all women were doing this mind you, but the ones
who had wealth and power were able to carry it off. Augustus was so
concerned that he attempted to write laws regulating this freedom. Caligula
attempted to eliminate the system of "manus" entirely, understanding that it
was repressive and against his idea of world order and free sexual license.
We all know what happened to Caligula. If I was a women in Rome I'd want to
be a patrician towards the end of Tiberius' reign, except for my inability to
vote and hold office, I could pretty much do what I wished as long as I had
the money to do it and no one would question my right to do so.
Vale
Q. Fabius


Subject:	Re:
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:33:25 -0500

On 13 Oct 99, --------2:22, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------; wrote:

> If I was a women in Rome I'd want to
> be a patrician towards the end of Tiberius' reign, except for my inability
> to vote and hold office, I could pretty much do what I wished as long as I
> had the money to do it and no one would question my right to do so.
> Vale Q. Fabius
>

So ancient Rome was not much different from our Modern times?

Pax,

Crys (having a very nice day)


Subject:	Re:
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:35:52 EDT

In a message dated 10/13/99 9:27:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=230166014180193192112218004036129208" >famromo@--------</a> writes:

<< So ancient Rome was not much different from our Modern times? >>
Except that women had no suffrage. Men still made all the important
decisions.
And for the nonwealthy women, things weren't much different then the early
republic.
Women today have the option to gain wealth, Roman women had to born into it.
Glad you are having a good day.
Vale
Q. Fabius


Subject:	Re: Focus
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:39:13 -0400

Salvete Domitiane et alii

The question of whether NR should limit its ordo equester to Roman-related
businesses is a toughie. If one approaches the question from an idealistic
or philosophical point of view,,,,(I'm scratching my head here),,,maybe. If
one approaches it from the point of view of NR's interest (to grow, build
population and treasury, acquire a piece of land somewhere someday), then I
think that we have to abandon this restriction, or at least apply the
restriction in a very very liberal, flexible way, such that it is not a
restriction but an ideal to be encouraged.

Also, there's more to our focus than how we're to raise funds (although
that's part of it).

>From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> (Dean Troy)
>
> Again, it is exactly because of any seperation of church and
>state that Nova Roma can indeed liken itself to such groups as the
>Mormons (in a way) and the state if Israel (more so), etc.

I must admit that I don't understand you here. I can see parrallels between
Nova Roma and the Latter Day Saints (I was one of those, by the way -- still
am according to their scrolls, I believe :)) and Israel; but how do you
link these parrallels to separation of church and state to arrive at a point
of relevance to criteria for equestrians?

It is exactly
>on this arguement which I say that we can't allow ourselves to restrict
>business commerce to that pertaining to only ancient Rome.

Again, if you don't mind my asking, what is the argument? I hope that you
aren't "for" separation of "church" and "state" in NR, because those
concepts themselves seem not to have existed in the context of Roma Antiqua
in quite the same form as in, let's say, the US or Western Europe today. To
the extent that the Romans had a "church" and "state", I don't believe that
they separated them. To them, the "church" was the "state" and vice versa,
basically. If one defines "church" as "body of people sharing a religious
persuasion" or "a shared religious persuasion", then the "church" for them
would have been Romani, or Roma, respectively, more or less, right? (I
realize that I have made some giant generalizations in the foregoing at the
expense of accuracy -- what we call Religio Romana was probably a form of
worship and belief practiced all over ancient Italy, so one could argue that
the "church" was a lot bigger than just Roma, or that there were several
"churches", but one has to start generalizing at some point or communication
becomes impossible -- please bear with me)

Pontifices had religious functions and "spheres" that magistrates did not;
the same could be said of augures, haruspices et cetera; but all these
interacted, at least to some degree, to guide the Res Publica, didn't they?
Didn't the Senate meet in a space that was considered sacred? In light of
which, could there have ever been a session of the Senate without a
"religious overtone" for lack of a better word?

And if we want Nova Roma to look and feel like Roma, it seems entirely
necessary to admix "church" and "state" as much as we can. Hence the
appropriateness of having magistrates swear an oath before the Gods, no
matter what any particular magistrate's beliefs are.

If this is
>truly a modern nation of people interested in endorsing ourselves to a
>point of potential influence in the far future as a serious and landed
>state/religious center we must leave open all avenues of potential
>progress--- financial, spiritual, etc. etc. completely open.

"Completely open" troubles me. Religio Romana, while it seems always to
have been open to change, in the form of new deities, new priesthoods, new
rituals, et cetera, is not, I would think, open to whatever we can dream.
The change seems to have been allowed carefully, after the pontifices
consulted the Senate, then the Sybilline books were studied, or after a
foreign deity was evoked (I'm reading Religions of Rome by M. Beard et alii
now, so the diachronic change of Religio Romana is on my mind a lot
nowadays). For instance, if in the future I were to try to use the website
to conduct an online ritual that I made up off the top of my head, to a
deity that I had made up in my own mind, I would hope that some
magistrate(s) or pontifices would...ah...interfere with my ritual. They
would probably do well to consider accusing me of a crime while they're at
it. I would also be troubled to see Satan worship, or some other non-Roman
cult, take on an official presence here. I believe that no such thing will
happen, by the way, as long as Iulianus lives.

I'm not sure that I agree that we are "truly a modern nation" either. We
are all definitely modern people, with memories, experiences and value
systems created and instilled in us in the modern world. But we are trying
to re-build elements of a new nation with ancient elements; indeed, we want
maximum ancient stuff, minimum modern stuff, as far as I understand it. Of
course, this is all just my view, which I do not claim to be authoritative.

>
> Creating opportunities for supportive businesses on the web or in
>real time/life could be reality one day. Considering such support, these
>same merchants would have every right to be considered part of the
>equestrian order if I should beg to go that far.

I think that you're right.
>
> Granted, at this time we don't have very much going on.

You mean in the way of commerce through the ordo equester?

>Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>
>
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus
former Saint


Subject:	Re:
From:	Marius Fimbria legion6@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:58:12 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete omnes!

Patricia Cassia scripsit:
> On reflection, it seems to me that Nova Roma's women have ended up in
> positions of practical use rather than high status. The e-mail list,
> Web site and treasury are now managed by women.
>
> I'm not sure whether this says anything about the sexes in general,
> or whether it simply reflects the choices each of us has made with
> regard to our level of commitment to Nova Roma.

...et Quintus Fabius respondit:
>Salve Patricia Cassia!
>Are you saying that women in NR are nothing more then glorified
>secretaries?

...et ego respondeo:

Actually, I kinda thought it meant that our womenfolk have far too much
intelligence and self-respect to subject themselves to what passes for
Nova Roman politics...! >({|;-P

:::takes off running before anyone can throw anything:::
************************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |>[SPQR]<|
mka M�ria Villarroel |\=/|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Roman Historical Re-Creationist `\*/, ``}`^~``,,, \ \
and Citizen of Nova Roma ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman... It's hard work, _|_| / _/_| /`(
but SOMEbody's gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'


Subject:	Re: Hellenicn
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:59:47 -0500 (CDT)

I had seen the Hellenion websight and I thought it was great. I
don't have the post I wrote but all I believe I did was mention them as
a group I believe. Take a look if any of you are interested. We should
ad them to our link section too.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	Re: Roman businesses - Disagreement
From:	Mike Macnair MikeMacnair@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:49:27 -0400

Salvete!

Cassius wrote,

>The most serious "non-Roman" business application the
>Censors have ever received was for an adult business, selling vibrating
>dildoes, rubber penises, anal toys, crotchless panties, cockrings, bondage

>devices, etc. Would YOU really want to see a section for this sitting on
our
>website right next to the link for our Constitution, or the Religio
Romana?

Excuse me, but I think the archeologists have found plenty of evidence of
sex toys (if not quite the same sex toys) from Classical Antiquity. So a
sex toys business seems to me pretty Roman.:).

By the by, I agree entirely with Cassius on the basic principle that the
Religio needs the State and the State the Religio.

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister


Subject:	Re: Re: Roman businesses - Disagreement
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:45:38 -0500

On 13 Oct 99, at 14:49, Mike Macnair wrote:

>
> Excuse me, but I think the archeologists have found plenty of evidence of
> sex toys (if not quite the same sex toys) from Classical Antiquity. So a
> sex toys business seems to me pretty Roman.:).

Actually he does have a point. It's not all dirty, unless you'r less
Roman and more Puritanical. And it would bring in more money.
All money is green, isn't it? Perhaps someone who sold a line of
ancient Roman sex toys?

2 cents

Pax,
Crys


Subject:	Re: Re: Roman businesses - Disagreement
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:02:47 -0500


Subject:	Pompeii
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:09:53 -0400 (EDT)

In the excavated city of Pompeii there have been found many evidences of
sexual activities, including marked curbstones, and unusual symbols,
which I am sure could be brought into Nova Roma for sale.

I like to think that I am not a prude, but the idea of advertising and
sellin this kind of merchandise on the net flies in the face of what the
Citizens of the U.S. think about such. Normally any Adult Book / Toy
Store in a given neighborhood does not have advertisements or even
window displays, because the surrounding community will not stand for
it.

A big reason for this is the children. We have had in the past, and may
have presently children below the age of consent on this net, or who
have access to it. The sales of the above merchandise may well be very
aborhant to the parents of those children, and could bring about
re-precussions that NR does not either need nor desire.

Another point that I think should be made, is that as a pagan community
Nova Roma is often lumped with other pagan commuities, not as well
organized or regulated as we are. The fact that we are pagan and
peddling merchandise of the above kind, is simply asking some "puritan"
with more money than good sense to make a big thing out of it.

Of course, I have to admit that we might be able to aspire to a great
deal of free advertisement in national newspapers and magazines, but I
am not sure that is what we want.

How about a range of businesses on the Macellum which has a "line" of
Roman Products and a catalog available for additional materials or
merchandise. A business for instance that sells a variety of Roman
Lamps and also has a catalog for flags, cutlery, period uniforms /
clothing, leather goods, woodworking, etc. that spans other more popular
histroacal periods. There are any number of such small businesses in
RevWar, CivWar, re-enactment in almost every aspect of the period from
"hardtack" to "eyeglasses". If such is appropriate to the Censors, I
should be willng to contact some of my sutler friends, make up a
catalog, and sell additional material from my business, or help anyone
(to the limit of my ability) to get into business on the NR Macellum.
.

Just a thought.
Marcus Minucius Audens
Candidate For Praetor;

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re:
From:	"Kyrene" kyrene@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:16:54 -0400

Salve!

----- Original Message -----
From: Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma]

> Patricia Cassia scripsit:
> > On reflection, it seems to me that Nova Roma's women have ended up in
> > positions of practical use rather than high status. The e-mail list,
> > Web site and treasury are now managed by women.
> ...et ego respondeo:

> Actually, I kinda thought it meant that our womenfolk have far too much
> intelligence and self-respect to subject themselves to what passes for
> Nova Roman politics...! >({|;-P
> :::takes off running before anyone can throw anything:::

*deep, wicked chuckle*

Oh, methinks I like you. :>

Vale et khaire,

-Kyrinia

-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Lolandrea Psikine'Aelanar *=-
-=* O'mra AirgeadFaol/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/" target="_top" >http://pagan.drak.net/lolandrea/</a> *=-
-=* ~Amber's Domain~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAria *=-


Subject:	Women In Nova Roma
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:06:55 -0400 (EDT)

Although Fimria's little comment was amusing, I place no such
restriction on the Women in Nova Roma. We currently have a Provincail
Praetor and until a short while ago we had a Senator. We may have more
now, and surely will in the future..

My point is that the ideas and discussions from the women on this list
have for the most part been well-thought out and presented Fimbria has
been honored with a Miliitary Tribunes Appointment and she is the
co-Commander of the Military Sodalitas together with ythe Commander of
the XXIVth Legio, this together with her Web-mistress appointment. I
would feel comfortable supporting her candidacy for political office,
should she wish to do so.

My impression of Cassia from my meetings with her is that she is also a
good historian, well-spoken and gives some thought to what she says. I
think either of these women would make excellent political candidates.
Our Provincial Praetor has worked hard in her province, and has
certainly earned the respect of the male group in NR. .

In regard to the fact that we are for the present committed to a
political organization designed to meet the needs and desires of NR, I
beieve that NR needs all of it's talents. While criticism is part and
parcel of the political venue, I hope that these women of NR will
seriously consider the service aspect of this poltical task, and the
necessity of having strong people in office who are dedicated to the
advancement of NR, regardless of age, sex, and wealth. These aspects
may have been important in the past, but in this NR new ideas and new
perspectives are more important in this day and age..

Marcus Minucius Audens
Candidate For Praetor .

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Women In Nova Roma
From:	"RCW" alexious@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:26:24 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: James Mathe--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 5:06 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Women In Nova Roma

> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
>
> Although Fimria's little comment was amusing, I place no such
> restriction on the Women in Nova Roma. We currently have a Provincail
> Praetor and until a short while ago we had a Senator. We may have more
> now, and surely will in the future..

Salve....

We currently, to my knowledge have two Female Praetor's Claudia Aprica in
Britianna and Flavia Iucundia in SE Provinica...We currently have Flavia
Iucundia in the Senate. I don't know why people keep forgetting that Flavia
Iucundia is in the Senate...but she is. :) Hopefully soon we will have more
females as Praetor's, Legates's and other administrative posts throughout
Nova Roma. I know currently of at least 2 provinces that have female
Legates....I believe Britianna and Lusitania. This is not to mention our
honorable Quaestor P. Cassia. :) The number of woman in the government of
Nova Roma will increase, as well as I hope their participation in the
interaction and involvement in Nova Roma. As was stated before..the List
has been moderated by L. Maria Fimbria, and now the website is under the
care of Flavia Iucundia.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul


Subject:	Re: Women In Nova Roma
From:	Marius Fimbria legion6@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:41:11 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete iterum:

Just a couple of minor corrections/clarifications to Minucius Audens'
post...

-- I believe the former Senator he speaks of was Flavia Claudia.
While she did resign both Senate and Citizenship during the
Interregnum, we do not lack a Senatrix, as...
-- ...Minervina Iucundia Flavia is a member of the Senate by virtue of
her position as a Provincial Post-PreProPraetrix. [Title hand-crafted
by Yours Truly.] >({|;-)
-- Iucundia Flavia is also the WebMistress...not myself; and Flavius
Vedius Germanicus has overall responsibility for the Web site.
-- My own responsibility for Nova Roma's means of communication begins
and ends with the E-List. (I received a request earlier today to clean
some foul grafitti off of the Forum Romanum Bulletin Board; I have
neither the passwords nor the admin privileges to do so.)

As to the gist of my comment: I have never denied that some of our
female Citizens would make excellent office-holders. But as long as
running for office in this Republic remains a matter of attacking and
being attacked, I doubt very seriously that we are going to have many
female contenders. A woman's style of communication tends to be
largely focused on building community and finding common cause. When
there is room for that in Nova Roma's public dialogue, instead of the
fruitless squabbling that so dominates our relations with one another
nowadays, then I don't doubt that we will find more women (and men!)
becoming interested in *seeking* as well as holding public office.

Yours under the Eagles...
************************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |>[SPQR]<|
mka M�ria Villarroel |\=/|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Roman Historical Re-Creationist `\*/, ``}`^~``,,, \ \
and Citizen of Nova Roma ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman... It's hard work, _|_| / _/_| /`(
but SOMEbody's gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'


Subject:	Re: Audens' certificate effort was Suggested Senate Actions
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:57:52 -0400 (EDT)

Gaius Marius Merrullus;

Well.I am back again from the hospital with a load of medicine, a book
full of instructions,and all under the watchful eye of my lovely and
caring wife. Things are not going to be fun for awhile I can see
(Grin!!!!!!!).

I am quite flattered by your offer, and committment. I will contact
Cassius again aout the Roman Art scenario and begin by working up
designs for the Certificates. Do you think that each Magistrates
Certificate shold be a different design, or all magistrates the same
with a different title?? The frst will be a lot more work. Your ideas
about the wording would be welcome. I would like to see some latin on
the certificate, but I am not sure how it shold be presented.

In respect to the "Most Hated Man In Town" I play the part of a British
Army Officer and Military Govenor who takes over a small river town,
confiscates warlike stores, holds military court and punishes the
citizens for firing on British Troops. Two floggings later and one
man's death (all three simulated) the bodies were thrown in the creek to
wash the filth off thier "provincial bodies." I think the community
dislike started sometime about the time that the screams of the punished
(simulated) began yo pierce the crowd. Any way in the P.M. we fought
the Continentals to a draw, and Sunday morning the Continentals with
re-inforcements pushed te British back to the schooner. Just as all the
British soldiers were aboard, I took a hit and went down, while my 8
year-old orderly waving his wooden sword and yelled "Killers" at the
Continental Forces. The Mayor and the Ecomonic Development Committee of
the town were very happy with the scenarios and encampment and we have
been invited to do it next year in a bigger and better venue. I have
the honor to serve as the Co-Commander ofr the Event and was pleased
that the town has invited our return..

I agree to your conditions of the task as you have proposed them, and
agree that the labor will be all donated, and any profit will acrue to
NR. I will begin to contact those who may be willing to help.

Again I thank you very much for your most generous offer.

Very Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Women In Nova Roma
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:11:37 -0700

Nova Roma has women in the following positions (this list is right off
the top of my head, so I'll probably miss somebody): 2 Propraetors
(South East United States and Britannia), a Legate in Britannia, a
Senator, Web Honcho Fimbria [Hoo-RAH!], ... sorry folks, that cheer
knocked the rest from the top of my head to the deck. And this was
just a quick look at those who are Presently doing a job. It doesn't
say anything about those who have stepped down from positions of
responsibility.

C. Aelius Ericius
Propraetor of California Provincia
(other jobs too!)


Subject:	Re: Re: Women In Nova Roma
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:20:47 -0400 (EDT)

Well said Fimbria!!! I retire the field leaving your victorius arms
upon it. I wanted to address the special attributes of women but alas
cold not remember the right words, and so was reduced to generalities.
Thank you for the corrections and my apologies to those magistartes that
I missed.

Respectfully Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Re: Women In Nova Roma
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:50:39 -0400 (EDT)


Subject:	Re: Roman businesses - Disagreement
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:11:32 EDT

In a message dated 10/13/99 4:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=230166014180193192112218004036129208" >famromo@--------</a> writes:

<< >
> Excuse me, but I think the archeologists have found plenty of evidence of
> sex toys (if not quite the same sex toys) from Classical Antiquity. So a
> sex toys business seems to me pretty Roman.:).

Crys:
Actually he does have a point. It's not all dirty, unless you'r less
Roman and more Puritanical. And it would bring in more money.
All money is green, isn't it? Perhaps someone who sold a line of
ancient Roman sex toys?
>>

Cassius:
There certainly WAS a point there, and that's what made the situation such an
interesting dilemma. Sexual imagery was part of everyday life in ancient
Rome, and tools for sexual pleasure certainly weren't unknown. However,
modern rubber and electric toys just seemed to be a bit much. It was...
well... cheesy.

After some thought, the Censorial counteroffer was adult stuff could
certainly be put up on the site... provided it was done in a way that made it
part of the Roman cultural experience, AND if it could be done in a way that
would be guaranteed to be off-limits to children. Right now the Nova Roma
site has a reputation for being a good resource. We have grade school
teachers giving our URL to children, for pity's sake. We don't need a lawsuit
on our hands for making 'pornographic' materials available to kids.

Anyway, the potential vendors were given the suggestion that they might try
marketing reproductions of sexual images from Pompeii, reproductions of
historical sexual tools, herbal massage oils and whatnot. In this way they
could make a profit AND market some um... interesting items. In that way SOME
modern stuff could sneak under the wire, while the somewhat less tasteful
items (particularly anything day-glo orange) ;) could be legitimately held
off the main NR site.

Truly, it would have been kind of interesting to have something exploring the
sexual background of ancient Rome. It certainly might have won us some
interest and proven that we're not prudes, if it could have been done
tastefully and artistically.

Unfortunately, doing something with a historical air to it proved too
difficult. It's plenty easy to be a reseller for tie-dyed rubber genitalia,
but not so easy to invest time researching Roman adult history, and create
your OWN stuff on a more culturally on-target level.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator


Subject:	Re: Re: Roman businesses - Disagreement
From:	Razenna razenna@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:51:30 -0700

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------; wrote:

<<SNIP>>

>AND if it could be done in a way that

> would be guaranteed to be off-limits to children. Right now the Nova Roma
> site has a reputation for being a good resource. We have grade school
> teachers giving our URL to children, for pity's sake. We don't need a lawsuit
> on our hands for making 'pornographic' materials available to kids.

And regarding exposing the kids to "Adult Theme" matters...This List is,
according to Onelist, is for people as young as 13 years old.
That is kids. In the eyes of the law, and in the eyes of many parents.
Is this relevant to the matter at hand? I don't know. I just want to call
your attention to all those kids who are loving this thread. LOL.
I do not think this thread violates the NR list's 13 year old low boarder,
but you know there are some who would think so.

C. Aelius Ericius
Senator


Subject:	Go ahead and make my day was Re: Taxes, Dues, whatever...
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:44:32 -0400

Salvete Marce Cassi et alii

Since I have posted so many messages recently in opposition to Iulianus on a
variety of fronts, and since he asks whether I am accusing him of lack of
interest in Nova Roma, let me start by answering:

No, I am not accusing you of lack of interest in Nova Roma. Furthermore, I
believe that your interest in Nova Roma is as great as anyone's, as
demonstrated by your founding her (along with Germanicus), and as
re-affirmed by your lifting the Interregnum, and by your continual
well-thought rebuttals to my, and others', crticial posts. It is also not
lost on me that you have paid money to support the website and the chat
room. I have no intention of seeing you stiffed for that money; you will
recoup that money, and I believe that we may somehow find a reasonable way
to raise more money for Nova Roma to continue and expand.

I would also like to point out that you have always seemed to me from your
posts to this list and private communications to be very intelligent, and
more importantly sincere and fair.

But you for some reason have decided to say "Go ahead" to me, as though to
imply that I am full of it. I have reviewed my recent posts to see whether
there was anything inaccurate or uncalled for there, and I find nothing.
Everything that I have said to you has been to my knowledge true and needed
to be said.

And naturally, I have a few more things to say...

:From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------;
:

:
:Marcus Minucius Audens submitted his budget to the "new" Senate only a week
:ago, just before Consul Palladius' wedding, and the current vote. As you
know
:the Senate cannot be in session while the Comitia Centuriata is convened
and
:holding an election.

No, I did not know that. Thanks for pointing that out.

However, individual Senators have had opportunity to go
:over the budget and assist in making necessary updates, etc. This will mean
:that Audens can present a "final" budget to the Senate when it CAN convene,
:and then the budget can be officially passed.

I'll be in eager anticipation of that.
:

:Cassius:
:We have 300+ Citizens officially. By good estimate 270+ of them are still
:around.

Really? Is that an educated guess, or the results of a census?

:Cassius:
:Both voluntary taxation and attempts at fundraising have been attempted,
but
:there hasn't been much of a return. Surely if Nova Roma continuously put
:effort into voluntary fundraising there'd be better results. However it
would
:take about the same overall effort as taxation, and worse yet, such
measures
:could easily become an irritant. "Voluntary" sounds like a desirable
thing,
:but it in fact equals "Constantly being asked for money". Who wants Nova
:Roma to always sound like public radio and tv during their membership drive
:months?

This is a good point. But, fundraising doesn't have to be as "in your face"
as all that, does it? If we issued people certificates, for example, on the
basis of donations, with some Nova Roma logo's or other images and a nice
bit of text, and/or posted the donors' names on the website, I don't see
that that would necessarily cause this type of loud fundraising drive like
the ones that you describe. It would certainly mean a commitment of some
time and some money for a few people. It seems from recent posts that
Audens and I could be two of those people. Marce Minuci, anyone else, any
comments?
:
: A tax would make Nova Roma the equal of virtually ALL other international
:organizations, such as the Audobon Society or Greenpeace, which link a set
:financial responsibility to the opportunity for membership. It's a system
:that is professional, organized, and fairly painless. (Except for that one
:month a year when one has to write out a check!) ;)

Again, I see your point. One major difference between Nova Roma and those
other organizations, though, is that NR is a nation, right? To me,
citizenship here is just fundamentally more important than membership in any
club or organization. I don't want us to start throwing people out for
non-payment of taxes. You yourself a while back pointed out that there
would have to be administrative work involved with collecting taxes; the
last thing, just about, that I want to see in NR is a Roman IRS, with a tax
code that a group of magistrates has to enforce. You point out that
fundraising drives are annoying. True enough, but is it less annoying to
deal with the tax police of any nation? Or, from the tax police's point of
view, to deal with the taxpayers of any nation?

:
:
:Cassius:
:Yes, it really IS too much work. It requires the same record keeping as
:taxation,

Not necessarily the same. If we were to have voluntary channels of
donation, records would have to be kept of actual donations, not of accounts
for each and every citizen.

but demands much more continuous effort.

Effort is unavoidable. If we favor voluntary fundraising, there will have
to effort, the magnitude and form of which depend on what type of
fundraisers we have. If we have taxes, then accounts will have to be set up
and maintained for each and every citizen, and a group of magistrates (the
quaestores I guess) would have to expend effort collecting taxes.

:
:If you've been reading this list you have some idea of the things that the
:Senate and magistrates are focusing on.

I certainly have been reading this list.

There is an election in progress

Right, the censores, rogatores and curator araneae are involved with that.

a
:budget is in the works,

Is it the same one that was put before the new Senate then immediately
rescinded? Why did that happen anyway?

Nova Roma as a corporation has to be changed over,

If you ever need to have something picked up at the state house, I'd be
happy to run by there. It's not that far from me.

:new censorial scribes have been appointed and are being trained,

Good.

we have a
:new webmistress, which will mean changes to the site, and several other
:issues on top of regular maintenance business just to keep NR functioning.

Yes, there's a lot going on.
:
:I can't help but point out that there are Citizens who raise a public
outcry
:every time some magistrate isn't attending to their official jobs to the
:standards they expect.

Really? Who are these citizens :)?

Now you want the magistrates to put aside their
:official constitutional duties and become sales/marketing people?

No, not at all. Constitutional duties come first of course. Article V says
"The Senate shall exercise control over the aerarium (treasury) and shall
oversee the financial endeavors, health, and policy of the state", which is
why I was under the impression that the Senate should be busy considering
proposals on raising funds for Nova Roma. Only now, thanks to your
clarification, do I realize that the Senate cannot do anything while voting
in comitia is ongoing.

:
:Cassius:
:The "one high ranking official" you're speaking about is me. I made no
secret
:of the fact that I had missed the full import of the documents concerning
the
:Lictors in the Ararium Saturni during the Social Wars, and had not had
:opportunity to check back over them later while putting all efforts into
:building up the Pontificial College and the Priesthoods. Do you really want
:to publicly accuse me of not being serious about Nova Roma? Go ahead.

Again, I'm not accusing you of anything. I paraphrased your statements here
in this forum. What Social Wars do you mean, the Impeachment/Interregnum?
The thing is, I thought that that business had ended no later than mid July.
:
:I must also remind you that the officials who are proposing taxation would
be
:PAYING that tax themselves. I personally find the argument that Citizens
:should have full rights AND expect the people doing all the work pay all
the
:bills as well to be foolish and repugnant.

Of course, and if a tax is passed by a Senatus consultum, I'll be paying it
too. I'm not trying to get out of paying my share, Marce Cassi. I was
contributing money before, and shall do so again, once the merger of the
corporation and micronation is complete. I personally find your mimicking
me flattering and amusing :).
:
:
:Cassius:
:The Senate will be passing a budget as soon as it can legally convene.
:However, I strongly support NO limitations as to how much money Nova Roma
can
:put aside for such projects as land, coinage, and the like. Why limit our
:potential?

I don't favor a fixed amount limit, but would like to see a limit calculated
as a percentage of concrete costs. Why? Because noone outside the Senate
knows, beyond the vaguest notions, what projects the Senate is going to
include in the budget. I think that there is consensus that NR should, as
Domitianus puts it, grow beyond the list and website, but just in what
directions is much less clear. It seems therefore appropriate to me, at
this stage, to prevent funding for what may seem to many citizens like an
obscure interest on the part of a handful of senators from mushrooming into
a budget hole that will precipitate the need for taxes, then increased
taxes, then possibly more taxes, plus some of those "in your face"
fundraisers. But hey, that's just my opinion.

:
:Merullus:
: iv -- If, within 30 days of the issuance of that SC, contributions are
still
: insufficient, let the Senate issue another consultum imposing a tax, with
: broad leniency for citizens outside the US in terms of timeframe for
: payment, and without any specific penalty for non-payment
:
:Cassius:
:The difficulty with a voluntary tax effort is that it just might work for
30
:days... and then would have to be done again, and again, in perpetuity.

Whatever we do, we shall have to do again and again, in perpetuity. If we
impose a tax, we'll have to collect it and account for it, again and again.
And I'm not sure that I believe that an imposed tax is a surer revenue
stream than voluntary contributions. I would rather give money freely to a
cause in which I believe than to pay a tax bill, wouldn't you? And NR has
no mechanism to force payment -- it can only open the exit door for those
who don't want to pay.
:
:: Merullus:
: v -- If, within 30 days of the issuance of the latter SC, payment is still
: insufficient, let the consules issue edicta specifying penalties (loss of
: century points, voting rights, citizenship et cetera) for non-payment. If
: we get to this point, it is likely that NR will be in her last days.
:
:Cassius:
:If we get to that point, we'll be holding the same standard that virtually
:all major organizations hold. If you pay membership dues you get to be a
:member, if you don't you're eventually dropped from the rolls unless some
:sort of special arrangement is made on an individual basis.

Well, I don't envy the magistrate who will have to sort out these "special
arrangements on an individual basis". Sounds like a rather large pain. And
again, I have trouble considering it dues, since NR is a nation, not a club.
:
:Valete,
:
:Marcus Cassius Julianus
:Senator
:
:
Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Re: Re: Focus
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:48:59 -0500

Salvete

One of the cool things about Nova Roma is how different
communities can support each other. For example a reenactor like
Marius Fimbra can help a more academic historian gain insight into
the amazing achievements of these little stunted people (the
ancient Romans). The discipline required to carry heavy armor is
best understood after marching under a hot sun for 20 miles or so
with the stuff on your back. Marius' Mules indeed! And then built a
mini castle at the end of the march! That these little dark people
carried their republic and empire into the lands of the larger and in
some ways more technically advanced Gauls and German,
beggars the imagination.

The Academic study supports the Religio, providing the details of
the religion.

The Religo supports the Reenactors, bringing out the religious
aspects of service to the state that enabled the soldiers and their
professional leaders to dominate forces tens of times their number.

The Political aspects give some understanding of how onetime
allies could be betrayed after saving the state. The minor
differences in language (take our use of Paterfamilias compared to
the meaning of Paterfamilias of ancient Rome) can lead to
misunderstanding, and even our petty arguments get pretty hot.
Imagine the force of the disagreements between the proponents of
Gaius Marius and Sulla of antiqua with the Mastery of Rome in the
balance. My eyes were certainly opened!

I see all the aspects of Nova Roma leading to a combined
understanding that is far deeper than any alone.

I think that our breadth of focus, like the open front of the Legion,
leads to flexibility. A tightly unified effort would miss many
opportunities. A link to a Sodalis web page, and a link to other
Sodali (sp?) and to various businesses from each Sodalis would
give the network of clients and patrons that emulates the
complexity of the social life of ancient Rome.

Hurrah for Nova Roma!

Pax Vobiscum

Gaius Iunius Placidus Amethystia Iunia Crystallina Materna
Don Meaker Crystal Meaker


Subject:	Re: Re: Roman businesses - Disagreement
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:59:29 -0500

On 13 Oct 99, --------2:11, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------; wrote:

> Truly, it would have been kind of interesting to have something exploring
> the sexual background of ancient Rome. It certainly might have won us some
> interest and proven that we're not prudes, if it could have been done
> tastefully and artistically.

I've been asking Fabius forever it seems to write something for me
about the possible "sexual exploitation" of children in Ancient
times. However, back then it wasn't expletive. The Sodalis needs
to take a good hard look at the children of ancient times. What
they went through, how they were valued (and how they weren't,
depending on what century your thinking is in). If anyone has any
information, I'd greatly appreciate it.

BTW, my Sodalis has parts that may be considered inappropriate
for children. I have a big ol disclaimer. NR could do something like
that (to cover their buts and make those silly Parent groups
happy), couldn't they?

Crystallina Materna


Subject:	Women of NR
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:23:13 -0500

Salvete,

Not to toot my own horn .. OK, I'll toot.

I built my Sodalis all by my lonesome. Then got help from the
wonderful, but hopelessly male Vado and Fabius (as well as yet
unpublished help from Audens and somebody I am forgetting on
the galley slave issue) <G>. It's not a bad site, but only addressed
when I publish the address on this and other lists (somehow it
hasn't made it onto the page in the last few months, which makes
me assume no one is interested -- again :-( ). The site has won
more awards even than Nova Romas site has and is now
expanding to include the whole of the Roman Family (including the
section dedicated to those among us who have moved on -- I am
looking for just the right words, but we have the honored
grandparents of one of our members all ready to go on the page ).

Until I objected to the manner of my appointment to the Priesthood
I held it officially. Now I look at the application and am intimidated.
I have been Priestess to Juno (as far as Juno and I am concerned)
for 17 years (today, my birthday as a matter of fact), as long as I
have been a Pagan and dedicated to Juno, Jupiter and Minerva. I
have been officially ordained since July of 1997. However, I do not
have any college or papers under my belt and I must admit to being
insulted at the prospect (upon thinking about it after speaking with
Cassius about it) of going to a School for Priests. The way I
worship the gods has been acceptable to Juno, Jupiter and Minerva
for the last 17 years, but it is not as far as NR is concerned? It
just irks me is all (nothing new there).

I am not in the least interested in political office. With Germanicus
in charge of the website, I don't stand a snowballs chance of
lending my talents to it. I don't sell anything (not even in the
Sodalis -- I just think it immoral for a Family Sodalis to do). But I
have done plenty for Nova Roma. And Nova Roma has done plenty
for me. I have learned here. I have made friends here. I brought in
the first native born Nova Roman (who is listed on the Iunius gens
page <G>). I started the Sodalis Pro Infantia, which is now the
Sodalis Familias. Heck I did a bunch of stuff, like it or not.

I just needed to mention this as this is my anniversary with the
Capitoline Triad and the anniversary of my birth.

Pax,
Amethystia Iunia Crystallina Materna
Proud member of the Iunia Gens
Mother of the First Born Nova Roman
Founder of the Sodalis Familias (<a href="http://famromo.wiccan.net" target="_top" >http://famromo.wiccan.net</a>)
Founder of the Via Trames (idea provided by QFM <G>)
Founder of the Back Alley (I believe that was Ericus brain child, in
a way)


Subject:	Re: Re: Roman businesses - Disagreement
From:	"Don and Crys Meaker" famromo@--------
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:25:16 -0500

Good point.

Crys (who remembers when the Back Alley was "investigated" by
the FBI -- that's when it went to 17+)

On 13 Oct 99, at 19:51, Razenna wrote:

> And regarding exposing the kids to "Adult Theme" matters...This List is,
> according to Onelist, is for people as young as 13 years old. That is
> kids. In the eyes of the law, and in the eyes of many parents. Is this
> relevant to the matter at hand? I don't know. I just want to call your
> attention to all those kids who are loving this thread. LOL. I do not
> think this thread violates the NR list's 13 year old low boarder, but you
> know there are some who would think so.
>
> C. Aelius Ericius
> Senator


Subject:	Re: Re: Roman businesses - Disagreement
From:	dean6886@--------)
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:16:14 -0500 (CDT)

I don't have too much more time today to answer lengthy posts but
your last paragraph clarifies everything Cassius ---- basically on
expanding to other forums and business at some unknown time much later
as appropriate.

I just wish to ad that the prohibition on adult entertainment
anything could possibly be a valid prohibition because minors can, will
and are looking through our websights and as many other places some may
not consider it family friendly. Of course multi-level market pyramid
type schemes, among some others mentioned are definate censorship items.

To quickly answer part of another post today I know very well there
is not a seperation of church and state and never had any problems along
those lines or to keep our reconstruction efforts as "orthodox" as
possible with adjustments for modern consideration---- the easiest
example would be about needing animal sacrifice and working without
that.

Gaius Drusus Domitianus