Subject:	Incorporation Papers
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:50:10 -0500 (EST)

Salvete! It is my pleasure to announce that the papers for Incorporation
are nearly complete. It is planned to to make the signing of them a part
of the Uxbridge gathering in Massachusetts December 11 and 12. Yes, I
plan on attending, New England weather permitting. More details
will soon be forthcoming to the Senate and the People.

Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus

Subject:	Re: Barbarians in Nova Roma........
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:05:28 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; wrote:

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
>
> Salve Decius Iunius,

Salve L. Sergi,

> It does indeed appear to be a matter of interpretation, since the words
> you kindly quote are clearly in conflict with the opening statements of
> both the old and new constitutions, and with the declarations of
> Germanicus and others when this questions has previously arisen here --
> that Nova Roma is aimed at recreating the Republic and not the Empire.
> While Roman culture encompasses the period from 753 to 394, the
> _Republican_ period doesn't.

True. At first glance, it does seem we have contradictory goals in Nova
Roma. However, as as been pointed out by another poster, we can be heir to
all that is Roman while still being a Republic. We have a Republican form
of government that is the cultural heir to all of Roman Pagan
Civilization. This does not affect our commitment to a republican form of
government but it can broaden our horizons in the study of the Roman
world. Our goal has always been to combine the cultural tolerance and
cosmopolitanism of the Imperial period with the civic virtue and piety
that is the ideal of the Republican period. Just because we are
a Republic does not mean we forget the millions of Romans who lived under
the empire--we do not forget the efforts of Julian to save the Religio and
the Empire, the struggles of Symmachus, nor even the dead of Adrianople
(even if that date falls somewhat beyond the period we cover). We combine
the best of both worlds, even if we fall short of the ideal we set for
ourselves.

> But beyond that, why would we want to emulate the period of Rome's
> decline?

Which period? The period when Greek thought "corrupted" the Romans? The
long period of Civil War, whose highlights include the barbarity of Sulla
or the maddness of Gaius Marius? Perhaps the period when the Penninsula
was depopulated by soldiers leaving for the wars and the large landowners
came to control the rural areas of Italy? Perhaps the late republican
neglect of the Religio, when civic virtue was a joke?

One can point to many periods in Rome's history when She was in decline
and was in ascendance. Some of those periods were Republican and some
Imperial. Don't fall into the error of seeing 500 years of empire as all
decline. There were ups and downs and much that is good and worth
studying, preserving and emulating. One can admit that and still be a
republican.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus

Subject:	LOUD Commentary on Last Election
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:11:36 -0500 (EST)

Salvete,

I wrote the below post hours after the results of the last election came
in, when it was clear that voter turnout was so low. I did not send it
because I was not sure it was productive to do so. I have been far from
perfect in the jobs I have held in Nova Roma and have been loathe to
criticize others for perhaps not fulfilling their obligations. However,
now that the campaign season is upon us, I think that perhaps I can aid
Nova Roma's cause, if not my own, by posting this message.

I send this now because I again fear low participation, not only in voter
turnout, but also in a lack of people willing to serve as magistrates,
which is especially distressing. When you read below my references to lack
of voter participation, consider it a clarion call also to encourage good
people to run for office.

Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius
Consul, etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Salvete Cives!

I hope you will forgive my tirade below. I want to comment on something
that continues to disturb me about the political process of Nova Roma. It
is lack of participation. Now, I realize that not everyone has the
inclination or the time to run for an office or be appointed to one. That
is understandable. However, there is no excuse not to VOTE!!!

In the past election, only 39 valid votes were cast. (7 other votes were
cast as there was a problem with their voter codes but be that as it may
it didn't affect the outcome or alter the turnout appreciably)
Around 40 votes were cast. 40, out of a population of 337 (now
394) eligible voting citizens!!! 40 votes!!! On this list alone, which
comprises most of Nova Roma's most active citizens, there are about 125
people. (now 135) Even with duplicate addresses and lurking non-citizens,
there are still over 100 citizens on this list. Where were you between
October 4 and October 17th?!?!? No doubt you must have seen references to
the election, at least glanced at political messages before deleting them.
Yes, it was an interim election but there were 4 laws being voted on as
well, laws that may affect your life in Nova Roma. These laws regulate the
age of a pater/materfamilias, set the standard, official Nova Roman time
and made official a law requiring an oath of office for magistrates. Are
you content to let other people make the decisions over your participation
in Nova Roma? People complain on occasion about our system, make
accusations that Nova Roma is an autocracy. Well, people you make the bed
you lie in. You are given opportunities to participate and do not. So be
it, but don't complain either if you don't vote. If you don't like the
fact that Audens was made praetor or that the age of pater/materfamiliae
is now regulated or that the official time is the time in Rome or
whatever--then too bad. You had an opportunity to have a say (twice
now since the dictatorship and soon to be a third time) over how things
are run and you blew it!!! Another election is coming soon, the main ones
for next year's offices. Don't whine if you don't vote again and next year
you don't like who is running things. If you choose to let a handful of
people vote and decide the future of Nova Roma then that is your decision.
I will continue to vote as will the core of voters who voted last time,
this time and in the coming election. If an oligarchy is developing then
it is one of your own making.

In the first election of this year, there was low turnout (actually higher
than the second time). People said it was because the magistracies were
uncontested, because there was only one law to vote on or there was
no "no vote" option. Well, the next time there was a contested election
with a well fought campaign, a ballot with several laws on it that had
wide ranging impact and even a "no vote" option that several people
requested. What we got was lower turnout! My hope is that it was because
it was an interim election but my heart tells me otherwise, that it was
apathy. Prove me wrong in the upcoming major election.

I say this an someone who has held a senior magistracy of one form or
another since the weeks before the formation of Nova Roma and who is now
politically what we refer to in the United States as a "Lame Duck." I am
not seeking another elected office for the forseeable future (you can be
sure that I am looking forward to the end of my term), perhaps never
again (as of the time I am actually posting this message, on November 30,
that has changed. However, I have left my original words). In other words,
I have nothing to lose with this tirade and perhaps Nova Roma herself and
some individual Nova Romans will gain something by being prodded into
action. Next month the campaign season begins for next year's offices.
Nova Roma will not survive with just the same 40 people voting and running
for office (since it is probably the same people who hold office and vote,
keeping ourselves busy). It requires the participation of more of its
citizenry. We are trying to be more responsive to your needs (the survey
my co-consul sent out has elicted great responses and ideas) but you need
to do your part. Participate--VOTE, VOTE, AND VOTE!!!!!! If you do not,
you lose your most direct voice in the process and leave the field to
others. The only way to change things is to participate. Don't do it
because I am screaming at you, reminding you of your obligations to Nova
Roma; do it because you care about Nova Roma and its future. If you don't,
then just why are you here?


Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius,

Consul, Censor, Senator, Pontiff, Lictore Curiata,
Former Praetor Urbanus,
former governor of the Eastern Canada Provincia,
Paterfamilias Gens Iunia,
Founding Member of Nova Roma.


(People complain that some people accumulate too many titles in Nova Roma.
Well, those of us who do are those willing to put time into
Nova Roma, often when no one else is willing to do anything. We are not
perfect but have devoted ourselves to Nova Roma. Run for office! VOTE!!)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus

Subject:	ANNOUNCEMENT of Candidacy
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:31:32 -0500 (EST)

Salvete Cives! I present myself to you as a candidate for the position of
Curator Differum (Editor of the Eagle), which is one of the
Vigintisextviri. You all know me well and I need not bore you with my Nova
Roma titles and credentials. As for the ability to perform this position,
while I am not formally trained in desktop publishing, I am quite fluent
with Microsoft Publisher 97, which I have used to create websites,
stationary of various kinds as well as booklets similar to the Eagle. I am
a decent writer and have been published professionally in some national
journals and smaller local publications. I am running for editor of the
Eagle but will be contributing to it as well and will seek out
contributions from many of you. The Eagle is your journal and will reflect
the best writings from Nova Romans I can find.


Yes, I had sworn before this not to seek another office in Nova Roma for
the immediate future. However, the lack of a race to beat down the doors
to seek magistrate positions has compelled me to again offer my services
to Nova Roma (there is as yet no other candidate for the office I am
seeking). The Vigintisexviri are vital positions to Nova Roma. They
must be filled. There are still no candidates for the offices of Rogator
(vote counter), Curator Araneum (webmaster), nor curator sermo
(moderator). I will serve faithfully and to the best of my ability in this
position. I hope people step forward to run for all open positions. No
position in Nova Roma is unimportant.



I am a candidate who urges you to serve Nova Roma!!!!


Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Nova Roman, Candidate for Curator Differum

Subject:	Re: Hotlinks.com
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:55:45 -0600 (CST)

Salvete, omnes...

>Many of us have various links to various web sites. There is a site,
>located at hotlinks.com where you can post bookmarked websites where
>you and others can view them.

The same may be done right on the home page for the [novaroma] List
<www.onelist.com/Community/novaroma/> ; in the same sidebar where you
access the Shared Files area, there is another feature called 'Links'
where you can share your favorites-list and peek at everybody else's.

>I hope many of you start accounts and we can each
>swap websites that we all enjoy.

Me too; I'm not too picky which service you use, just so's we know
they're both available.

Happy surfing!
************************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |>[SPQR]<|
mka Märia Villarroel |\=/|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Roman Historical Re-Creationist `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Nova Roma ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman... It's hard work, _|_| / _/_| /`(
but SOMEbody's gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'

Subject:	Office Of Curator Differum
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:23:22 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Citizens of Nova Roma;

I am most pleased to see the announcement of the Candidacy of Consul
Palladius for the above position. I am pleased for several reasons an
you should be pleased as well, certainly not because I say so, but
rather because of:

--Consul Palladius' long assocation as a "mover and shaker" within Nova
Roma, and his continuous service to NR;

--His obvious ability in writing as proven by his being a published
author;

--His past dedication to NR in his continuous and very enviable service
to this micro-nation;

--His willingness to continue further in service to this micronation
following a tumultuous Consulship. I happen to know that he is a very
busy man, recently married, with many tasks and interests to which he
has been fully committed to maintain a place in his community as well as
within Nova Roma.

For the above reasons, I welcome his candidacy for this position, and I
pledge my support to his efforts herein to the best of my ability. I
urge your consideration of Consul Palladius for this position in NR.

Vale, Citizens of Nova Roma;
Very Respecfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Curator Differum, Praetor et Senator
Candidate For Consul

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Nova Roma
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:38:27 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, Citizens of Nova Roma;

Although I enter this Forum rather late, I am pledged to respond to
questions directed at the Candidates for Office in Nova Roma. The
question as I read it from L. Serg. Aust. message follows:

"Perhaps we will need to hear from our new crop of candidates how each
of them stands on what parts of the Roman Heritage are most deserving of
revival--Cato or Caligula, which will it be?"

The above question comes as a bit of a surprise since I have been under
the impression during my involvement with NR that the emphasis has been
on the Republic rather than the Empire in the structure of Government,
that situation appearing I suppose because the government, in which I
have been the more deeply interested, has been a government trying to
revive the best of the Late Republic. I say the best, of course,
because many writers of this period refer to the Government of the late
Roman Republic as something less than satisfactory, and ripe for change
which in fact did happen.

We in Nova Roma have another chance to review that period and try to
revive it, in what hopefully is the best of what was viewed as a grand
new idea. Surely there were faults there which many of my
contemporaries within Nova Roma have brought out with great skill and
insight, far better than I am capable of, but as I understand, that is
what we are attempting to do, is to redress those faults in order to
experience the Republic as it was hoped it would be, and not as it
really was. We have experienced some results that should reinforce the
idea that such an ideal is not easily attained,and requires a great deal
of effort and consideration, for many of the same mistakes have been
made here as in the earlier Republic even though there is no power here
other than the power of pride, and there is no money here to speak of,
and no-one can be set above another except perhaps in accomplishment,
which in Nova Roma engenders neither power or money. So, in my view we
are attempting to review the ideals of the Republican government of Rome
in her early days, but what of the other aspects of the larger, the
greater, the louder and more lurid Empire of Rome, the rich tapestry of
the Roman Religio, the feats of the Legions, the great builders,
administrators and military commanders, and yes the great failures as
well??

Must we limit ourselves to exclude the study of these if we desire it.
I personnally don't think so. I do not not wish to be ruled by a Caesar
no matter how benevelant, so I have entered into, and work at, a
goverment that acts as a Republic and am trying to build the best or
ideal of that Republic, but I also admire and study the structures of
the empire with great admiration, the bridges,"Oh the Bridges" and the
Roads, and the Aqueducts, the buildings and the ports, the dams and the
drainage of the swamps, the military engineering and the maratime
empire. These are my particular delights, but they do not match in time
with the Republic for the most part, for the Republic could not
concentrate the effort for these public works and great accomplishments
in my estimation, with as great an effect as an Emperor could. So, I
study the one with facinaton and I work at the other with an equal
facination and diligence. Must I choose Caligula over Cato, ---to my
mind I do not think that necesary.. I do not wish to recreate the
government of Caligula, as it is not to my taste, nor if the words I
have read in Nova Roma are any judge, to the taste of others herein.
But must I limit myself to the wooden bridge of Julius Caesar or may I
study the Wall of Hadrian and it's vast sweep of determination and
building skills? May I study the magnificent road along the Danube hewn
from living rock ordered by Trajan, or the ageless Bridge over the Tagus
River near Alca'ntara, Spain. I think that those desires are not in
violaton of my Oath or my intent.

I believe that each of the interest areas within Nova Roma may do the
same, Religio, Family, Food and Wine, Music, Art, Law, Letters, etc. and
it does not label anyone wrong. For those who do not agree, the Forum
is here to correct me, as you will, and the ballot boxes will soon be
open.

I enjoy my work and leisure with Nova Roma, and the friends that I have
made here, and I am happy to have the opprotunity to study those things
whch interest me, help build those ideas with which I agree and to be
able to share them with others of like mind, as a Student of the Roman
Heritage, a title that I have always adhered to during my tenure in NR

Valete, Citizens of Nova Roma;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens;
Praetor et Senator
Candidate For Consul

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Formal and Informal Latin (was SPQR)
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" n_moravius@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:48:10 PST

Salvete!

Scripsit Australicus:

>You bring to mind a modern observation of mine -- that many of the people
>with whom I work are totally unfamiliar with the vocabulary and many of
>the grammatical niceties of the English that I and other professional
>people speak here, and obviously often don't understand much of what
>we're talking about. In effect, they speak a dialect that is much
>different from ours, and the assumption that we share a common language
>is really a pretty shakey one. Oftentimes they actually seem to focus on
>familiar words and miss overall point. But they nod their heads and say
>they understand.
>
>Given what seems to be the greater complexity and subtlety of Latin
>grammar, I can't help but suspect that the common people of Rome probably
>had a similar language barrier when it came to communicating with the
>educated upper classes. Probably many of the people in the Forum didn't
>grasp half of what Cicero was saying in his oratories! Sophistication of
>language may have been an important determinant of social stratification
>and upward mobility (and lack of it).
>
>Just a thought -- probably not even appropriate to the topic at hand.

- what the Hades, mi Australice, I think it's an interesting one anyway.
Richard Ben Sapir's intriguing novel 'The Far Arena' addresses this (among
many other interesting issues that show parallels between Roman and modern
Western society).

I don't know if you've read it (Fimbria and Aletheia Moravia are the only
other two cives who have, to my knowledge), but it features a plebeian Roman
frozen in the 1stC. CE and revived by a cryogenics specialist in the 20thC.
Academics 'know' the whole thing has been faked because the Latin our
revived hero speaks isn't the gramatically-perfect, rhetorical or literary
patrician Latin with which they are familiar. A comparison of Cato's Latin
with that of Plautus' low-life comic characters seems to me to confirm the
probable truth of your observation.

I'd love to know what Fimbria and Merullus have to say about it too, though.
BTW guys, I haven't enjoyed a Main List thread so much as that one on
Republic vs. Empire for a long time. Gratias vobis!

Valete,

Vado.

Subject:	Re: Mea culpa (was Barbarians in Nova Roma........)
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:32:34 EST

Salvete Omnes,

Sorry folks. I made the usual mailing list mistake of indulging in
tongue-in-cheek overblown rhetoric and reaped the inevitable reward of
being lectured at by some who took it too seriously.

Of course the Republican period was no Golden Age, and of course we don't
want to ignore the rest of Rome's heritage. And Rome didn't fall because
Augustus eclipsed the Senate. And decadence had become well-established
long before the Civil War between Gaeus Pompeius and Divus Julius.

I'll try to include a humor alert the next time my fingers try to emulate
Cicero's tongue.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Subject:	Re: The Far Arena was Formal and Informal Latin
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:01:36 EST

In a message dated 11/30/99 6:48:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a> writes:

<< I don't know if you've read it (Fimbria and Aletheia Moravia are the only
other two cives who have, to my knowledge), but it features a plebeian Roman
frozen in the 1stC. CE and revived by a cryogenics specialist in the 20thC. >>
Salvete!
The Far Arena concerned a popular Roman Gladiator who had displeased his
Emperor and so was exiled to the North Sea in Germany. There he was frozen
quickly because the Centurion rather then letting him die slowly of exposure,
as the emperor wanted, instead in a hero worshiping moment gave him poison
which stopped his heart, and the freezing does the rest. I remember this
story like yesterday because I was part of a team that was working on it for
development into a movie.
Sapir (who with Warren Murphy) wrote the highly successful "The Destroyer"
series of books: a blending of martial arts, American failure of justice, and
the one man who was the ultimate killing machine who did not answer to the
constitution of the US. That was made into a movie. Arena was not.
Sapir's character was complicated to say the least. He was the best
Gladiator of his time, and he was married to a Jewish girl. He has no moral
compunction, killing people, that's what Gladiators do, but his biggest
problem is his horror upon returning to present day and discovering that
Christianity ruled the world!
The movie wasn't made because the producers saw it as anti-Christian and anti
female. Sapir himself is Jewish and I can't speak personally for his
motivation, but the conversations we had were along the lines of that
Christianity used a sleight of hand to accomplish the goal of controlling the
Western world. They wielded themselves to Rome. Without doing this, the
religion is dead, "dead as that icon on the cross." to quote Sapir.
To prove his point Sapir has the gladiator finally get to Rome and see the
decay and the desolation of empire replaced by the Rome of "halfbreeds and
ignorants."
he is depressed and ready to kill himself. Only one thing saves him, he sees
the Vatican.
"This is Rome. Rome lives." He now realizes without the Church, Roman
culture would have died out, and been forgotten.
When I used to teach ancient history I'd say to my classes "We are all
children of Rome. We should respect and honor her." I don't know how many
of my students are still doing this, Greg Amov is the only one I know that
went on in the classics field, but I hope there is still a few.
And we still search for that Roman behind the door.
Valete
Q. Fabius

Subject:	Re: Formal and Informal Latin
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:20:19 EST

In a message dated 11/30/99 6:48:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a> writes:
<< Given what seems to be the greater complexity and subtlety of Latin
>grammar, I can't help but suspect that the common people of Rome probably
>had a similar language barrier when it came to communicating with the
>educated upper classes. Probably many of the people in the Forum didn't
>grasp half of what Cicero was saying in his oratories! Sophistication of
>language may have been an important determinant of social stratification
>and upward mobility (and lack of it). >>
Salvete
Which I disagree with. I know Spanish of Spain. When I go to Mexico, or for
that matter even here in L.A. I hear the Spanish of Mexico, San Salvador,
Columbia, etc., I can still understand most of it. There are some words that
have no meaning to me because I am not sure of the context of usage, but I
can still make myself understood.

Now if you are talking about the jargon of law, then that's something
entirely different. My mother was a labor law attorney, and she spoke
perfect English (with a slight German accent) but what she said in her
English were words I hadn't clue of what they meant. The same with a Quantum
Mechanics specialist from JPL that was at Thanksgiving Dinner. I made the
mistake of asking on what he was working. I was lost in 10 mins. And we
both were speaking English.
Valete
Q Fabius

Subject:	Announcement for the Comitia Populi Tributa
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:13:00 -0800

While the deadline is 1800 hours Roman Time. That deadline has been
extended for 24 Hours.

This affects the Minor Magistrate Positions,
Also for the Positions of Curule Aedile and Quaestor.

If you are interested in running for any of these offices you have less
than a day to declare your candidacy.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Consul

Subject:	Re: Formal and Informal Latin (was SPQR)
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:40:25 -0500

Salvete Nicolaue Moravi et alii

"The Far Arena"? I haven't read it. I'll put it on my reading list for the
next millennium. Thanks.

I have also been observing for quite some time that people can speak English
with one another and still misunderstand each other, sometimes to the point
that communication completely breaks down. And I'm not talking about native
vs. nonnative speakers, or even different dialects (though those differences
can muddy communication too of course): two people from practically the
same exact coordinates on the mudball, taught to speak the same language via
much the same institutions, can have these little breakdowns, even while
looking into each other's eyes and watching each other's body language.

My theory is that this has much less to do with level of education than it
does with general lack of attention to communication. The only way to
overcome these breakdowns is with patience and increased effort on the part
of all parties in the communication.

It is unfortunate (from my perspective, maybe not everyone else's :)) that
we cannot observe Romans to see how often these breakdowns, or similar
phenomena, occurred among them. I have heard people theorize that spoken
Latin, at any period, would have had little in common with Cicero's written
speeches. To this I answer, guessing of course, "yes" and "no". Yes, in
that people generally do polish writing much, much more than their speech
("speech" meaning everyday oral communication)-- all the more so if one's
career, livelihood, status et cetera depend on that writing. So, noone
spoke the way that Cicero's speeches read -- including Cicero himself. But
no, in that I don't buy the idea that classical Latin grammar is "too
complicated" to be spoken. That assertion is, in fact, ridiculous. One of
the reasons that I began to study Russian was its similarities to Latin,
particularly in terms of the inflection of nouns, pronouns and adjectives.
Actually, Russian has more cases, thus more nominal endings, than Latin --
and yet little Russian kids have no particular problem declining their
words, and Russian speakers use the language, with all its complexity,
pretty much identically to the way that I use English. And if the Russians
do it now, the Romans must have done it then.

For those who have not been bored to death on their way to this paragraph, I
believe that the notion of classical Latin being "too complex to be real"
comes from the fact that, in evolving into the modern Romance languages,
Latin lost its nominal case inflection. I would postulate that this loss of
inflection had a lot to do with assimilation of words from other languages,
of other peoples moving (and being brought through imperial expansion) into
the Roman orbis terrarum throughout and after the late Imperial period. In
terms of verbs, the modern Romance languages are all much more complicated
than Latin, having picked up all these nasty auxiliary verbs, progressives
and other extraneous stuff. Where does all that extraneous stuff come from,
anyway? I think that even the Greeks picked up "to have" as an auxiliary
verb to form perfect tenses (various forms of ekhein or something like
that). Can any modern Greek-enabled people confirm this fear?

Valete

C Marius Merullus


>From: "Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>

>Richard Ben Sapir's intriguing novel 'The Far Arena' addresses this (among
>many other interesting issues that show parallels between Roman and modern
>Western society).
>>
>I'd love to know what Fimbria and Merullus have to say about it too,
though.
>BTW guys, I haven't enjoyed a Main List thread so much as that one on
>Republic vs. Empire for a long time. Gratias vobis!
>
>Valete,
>
>Vado.
>

Subject:	Re: ANNOUNCEMENT of Candidacy
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:52:38 -0500

Salvete Appi Claudi et alii

Thanks for coming forward -- 5 minutes before the bell :)! Please, if you
don't mind, would you candidates send copies of your announcements to the
censores? I am afraid that your candidacy might otherwise be discounted
(although a throw from the virtual Tarpeian Rock may be in the works for
anyone who disqualifies a candidate at this point :)).


>From: Claudius Nigellus <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=219128113182248132130232066026192239248105163214013123152150172" >claudius--------llus@--------</a> >
>
I intend, therefore, at least to make a
>genuine race of the praetorship.

Yes, you'll do it, since, if I'm not mistaken, you're the third candidate to
announce for praetor.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
rogator nervosus
>

Subject:	Deadline Extended
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:34:42 -0500 (EST)

Salvete! I hereby extend the dealine for people to announce their
candidacies for offices elected by the comitia centuriata--the offices of
censor, consul and praetor. All the other offices are elected by the
comitia populi tributa, which is being convened by Lucius Cornelius Sulla.

The deadline is now 1800 Roman time, (1200 EST, 0900 Pacific Time),
December 1. The ballot will then be complete and will be published.

Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Quis ita familiaris est barbaris,
ut aram Victoriae non requirat!"

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus

Subject:	Re: Deadline Extended
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:46:15 EST

In a message dated 11/30/99 4:35:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a> writes:

<< Salvete! I hereby extend the dealine for people to announce their
candidacies for offices elected by the comitia centuriata--the offices of
censor, consul and praetor. All the other offices are elected by the
comitia populi tributa, which is being convened by Lucius Cornelius Sulla. >

Does this mean that candidacy announcements for the other positions
<Magistrates and such> is now past?

Priscilla Vedia Serena

Subject:	ATTN: magistrates - Leges _ de prorogandis magistratibus was Deadline Extended
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:54:59 -0500

Salvete Consul Deci Iuni et alii

I'm thinking that NR may be best served if we have a clear legal mechanism,
in compliance with the constitution, to extend the terms of office of
sitting magistrates when no citizens step forward to replace them.

A solution that I identify is passage of three identical laws, one for each
assembly, authorizing the Senate to prorogue sitting magistrates elected by
that assembly. The laws could look something like the following:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
Lex Iunia de prorogandis magistratibus

Si deerit candidatorum in ullum officium in Decembre centuria Senatum
potestatem magistratus prorogandi unum annum magistratu volente habere
statuunt

English: If no candidates declare for any office in December, the centuries
resolve that the Senate has the authority to extend by one year the term of
the magistrate serving in that office, with the consent of that magistrate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------

Lex Cornelia de prorogandis magistratibus

Si deerit candidatorum in ullum officium in Decembre tribus Senatum
potestatem magistratus prorogandi unum annum magistratu volente habere
statuunt

English: If no candidates declare for any office in December, the tribes
resolve that the Senate has the authority to extend by one year the term of
the magistrate serving in that office, with the consent of that magistrate..

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
Lex Crylla de prorogandis magistratibus

Si deerit candidatorum in ullum officium in Decembre plebs Senatum
potestatem magistratus prorogandi unum annum magistratu volente habere
statuit

English: If no candidates declare for any office in December, the plebeian
order resolves that the Senate has the authority to extend by one year the
term of the magistrate serving in that office, with the consent of that
magistrate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------

I think that laws like this are unfortunately necessary, because without at
least two of them, we have no clear means of maintaining the offices of
quaestor, aedilis and all vigintisexviri into next year.

In Germanicus' case, for example -- since his term as curator araneae is up,
there is no constitutional procedure for him to continue maintaining the
website, EVEN IF HE WANTS TO (and I don't know whether he does). In the
absence of a clear mechanism, the temptation for all of us to ignore the
constitution will grow quickly, and, once any part of it is ignored, the
whole of it loses at least some of its validity.

I anticipate that there may be some reservation about this kind of mechanism
because it relegates power of election from the assemblies to the Senate
under a special circumstance. I hope that people realize, though, that that
power is already lost when the special circumstance -- the lack of anyone
willing to run for an office -- becomes reality.


>From: Decius Iunius Palladius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a>
>
>
>
>Salvete! I hereby extend the dealine for people to announce their
>candidacies for offices elected by the comitia centuriata--the offices of
>censor, consul and praetor. All the other offices are elected by the
>comitia populi tributa, which is being convened by Lucius Cornelius Sulla.
>
>The deadline is now 1800 Roman time, (1200 EST, 0900 Pacific Time),
>December 1. The ballot will then be complete and will be published.

Subject:	Re: Deadline Extended
From:	JusticeCMO@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:01:09 EST

In a message dated 11/30/99 5:47:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=219128113182248132130232066026192239248105163214013123152150172" >claudius--------llus@--------</a> writes:

<< I hereby extend the dealine for people to announce their
candidacies for offices elected by the comitia centuriata

I would be grateful if our honoured consul could explain why the deadline he
himself published over a week ago and was most clear in stating, has been
arbitrarily extended? >>

Hmmm...maybe it is this head cold....but I seem a bit muddled as to all this
talk of deadlines and such. When I orignally saw November 30th as the
deadline, I presumed that meant candidacies could be announced up to and
including 11:59pm on 11/30.

However...I saw the announcement of an extension at 4:51pm on 11/30. If, at
that time, an extension was required..I suppose I was mistaken from the
get-go.

Was the "midnight" set to Roman time originally? I'll confess, I have enough
trouble figuring out military time for eastern standard. LOL

Sooo, what I am trying to ask..in a round about way I suppose...is when the
deadline was originally set to (EST..if someone would be kind enough to do
the time translation for me LOL Too much Nyquil in my veins!)

Thanks!

Serena

Subject:	Re: Re: Nova Roma needs you
From:	"Dave Hodge" gangsters1920@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:36:20 EST

Salve and Heilsa,

I would like to put forth my name as a candidate for Tribunis Plebis.
Thank you.

Wassail and Vale,

Marcus Virginius Iulianus




>From: "Gaius Marius Merullus" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Nova Roma needs you
>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:51:22 -0500
>
>Salvete Erici et alii
>
>
>
>:From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
>:
>:Would you please...
>:What positions have candidates?
>
>My record is unofficial, the official record of candidacy being in the
>purview of the censores, but this is what I have, as of today:
>
>- 2 candidates for consul, 2 vacancies
>- 1 candidate for praetor, 2 vacancies
>- 1 candidate for quaestor, 8 vacancies
>- 1 candidate for tribunus plebis, 2 vacancies
>
>There are many other offices to become vacant at the end of this year:
>please see the list provided in Palladius' announcement, posted to this
>list, as well as on the message board
>(<a href="http://beseen4.looksmart.com/boardroom/j/17263/View?n=01601" target="_top" >http://beseen4.looksmart.com/boardroom/j/17263/View?n=01601</a>)
>
>:Please reiterate the closing date for announcing candidatures.
>
>The deadline to announce candidacy, as stated in Palladius' announcement,
>is 1800 Roman time, November 30, ii Kal Dec. That's a couple of days from
>now -- so please, all those who can, declare your candidacy now. I would
>like to point out that people who hold provincial positions are not in any
>way, shape or form barred from running for these offices in the central
>administration. I would say, chances are that people who have been serving
>in provincial capacities would do great in the central administration.
>
>Furthermore, one person's declaration of candidacy for an office should not
>be taken as a sign that others cannot run for that office. There's nothing
>wrong with the voters having a choice.
>
>:Maybe this will stir some more candidates.
>:We can hope.
>
>I hope so. If we don't see a flood of candidacy announcements within the
>next couple of days, it means that all the vacancies will be left to the
>Senate to fill next year by appointment.
>
>Valete
>
>C Marius Merullus
>rogator
>:
>:Thank you.
>
>You're welcome.
>:
>:Vale.
>:C. Aelius Ericius
>:
>
>
><< text3.html >>

Subject:	Re: Re: A Rome for all periods
From:	"Dave Hodge" gangsters1920@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:50:55 EST

I agree. I prefer the Imperial Period. Not because of its decadence and
greed and crumbling of Rome. I prefer the Imperial period during the reign
of Augustus and Hadrian because of its glory and power and strength.

M. Virginius Iulianus


>From: Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: [novaroma] Re: A Rome for all periods
>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:24:55 -0600 (CST)
>
>Salve, Sergi Austale, et salvete omnes...
>
>[Disclaimer: The following are the opinions and responses of L Marius
>Fimbria only, and do not in any way represent the official policies or
>positions of Nova Roma, Nova Roma Inc., or the NovaRoma E-List.]
>
>I am one of those cited who has openly expressed a preference for the
>Imperial era; as such, I must take issue with some of the statements
>and assumptions being made here about that era, to whit:
>
> >I am not confused (except as to why anyone wants to emulate the period
> >of Rome's degeneration and fall).
>
>Is that all the age of Empire was to you, friend? With all due
>respect, surely no one believes that Roman civilization was in a
>continual state of decline, in *all* aspects, for going on four hundred
>years! In many respects (such as law and administration), Rome did not
>arrive at Her fullest potential until the Imperial period. I suppose,
>as with much of human opinion, it all depends on whose ox was being
>gored...
>
>I am a Roman of the Provinces, Hispania Baetica to be exact. For
>people like myself, the concepts of 'Rome' and 'Romanitas' were
>meaningless until Iulius Caesar granted Citizenship to northern Italy
>and certain inhabitants of Gaul and Spain. Your beloved Republic had
>to go through the Social Wars before it would recognize even other
>peninsular Italians as Citizens, and then the Senate relegated the 'new
>hires' to the largest tribes and lowest classes in order to dilute
>their votes!
>
>Na, I remember the Republic best as a hotbed of exclusionism and
>bigotry, corruption and political maneuverings; a Provincial
>governorship was, for the appointee, merely 'My Year to Get Rich', and
>the Catos of the Big City were telling the rest of us that we were not
>really fit to be treated as human beings, let alone potential Romans.
>
>It was only with the Empire that Citizenship became a live possibility
>for large numbers of people all over the Mediterranean world. Indeed,
>what 'makes' Rome for me--what I consider Her crowning achievement--was
>Her ability (and, finally, after Republic's fall, Her willingness) to
>take in other peoples, embrace other cultures, and give Her own in
>exchange. This was so without precedent in the world; so unlike the
>peevish little Greek City-states, each clutching its citizenship so
>tightly to its breast that the poor thing suffocated for lack of new
>blood!
>
>Don't get me wrong: I am no fan of one-man government. Nova Roma
>does, indeed, attempt to revive the Republican political structure, and
>indeed has improved upon it in some respects. But civilization is much
>more than politics; and Republican Roman civilization was too small to
>welcome the likes of me. In law, in Provincial administration, in
>development and support of the arts and sciences, in medicine, in
>military science, in standard of living, and in cosmopolitanism, the
>Empire had it all over the Republic. I see nothing wrong with doing as
>the Romans did and emulating the BEST of both worlds.
>
> >Romans! Don't be seduced by the degenerates of the Empire!
>
>HEY!!! I Resemble That Remark!!!!! >({|;-)
>
>In amicitia et fides,
>************************************************************
>Lucius Marius Fimbria |>[SPQR]<|
> mka Märia Villarroel |\=/|
> <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
>Roman Historical Re-Creationist `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
> and Citizen of Nova Roma ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
>'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
> bein' a Roman... It's hard work, _|_| / _/_| /`(
> but SOMEbody's gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'
><< text3.html >>

Subject:	Edictum
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" germanicus@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:00:58 -0500

Salvete Omnes,

It is with great pleasure that I would like to announce that Antonius
Gryllus Graecus has volunteered for, and has been appointed to the position
of Scribus to me in my capacity as Curator Araneum. I thank him for his
offer, and his continued service to Nova Roma.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Curator Araneum

Subject:	Announcement of Candidacy - Aediles Curules
From:	Jenni Hunt moonloon@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:10:41 -0500

I, Iulia Ovidia Luna, a/k/a Jennifer Hunt, do hereby announce my candidacy
for the office of Aediles Curules. I am currently a member of the Collegia
Pontifices and have been involved with Nova Roma for quite some time,
although I didn't actually apply for citizenship until February of 1999. I
have been involved with Religio Romana for a few years now and am writing a
series of articles on the subject for the modern pagan or reconstructionist.

The position of Aediles Curules interests me particularly because I hope to
see more actual gatherings of folks in Nova Roma and to be instrumental in
working out a calendar of events and festivals which is workable within and
among the varioius provinces.

I will be happy to address any questions or concerns regarding my candidacy
either publically or privately. Thank you for considering me for this office.

Valete omnes!

Jenni Hunt, a/k/a Iulia Ovidia Luna
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029233253185018190112158203026129208071" >moonloon@--------</a>
Pontifex, Nova Roma
Sola Romana in Rhoda Insula (et tamen amica bovorum)

Look for me on ICQ (#488714) and/or AIM (Mooonloon)

Subject:	Correction!! Announcement of Candidacy - Aediles Curules
From:	Jenni Hunt moonloon@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:19:31 -0500

This should have been for the Aediles Plebis! Sorry!

>Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:10:41 -0500
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=219056234112193209090218066036129208" >censors@n...</a>
>From: Jenn--------nt <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029233253185018190112158203026129208071" >moonloon@--------</a>
>Subject: Announcement of Candidacy - Aediles Curules
>In-R---------To: <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=158112118153081057247138190234020126116073164018005229173150172205" >3841F248.F858EFA7@--------</a>
>References: <003b01bf3a03$de0efba0$e1d6a5cc@wphnvefu
>
>I, Iulia Ovidia Luna, a/k/a Jennifer Hunt, do hereby announce my candidacy
for the office of Aediles Curules. I am currently a member of the Collegia
Pontifices and have been involved with Nova Roma for quite some time,
although I didn't actually apply for citizenship until February of 1999. I
have been involved with Religio Romana for a few years now and am writing a
series of articles on the subject for the modern pagan or reconstructionist.
>
>The position of Aediles Curules interests me particularly because I hope
to see more actual gatherings of folks in Nova Roma and to be instrumental
in working out a calendar of events and festivals which is workable within
and among the varioius provinces.
>
>I will be happy to address any questions or concerns regarding my
candidacy either publically or privately. Thank you for considering me for
this office.
>
>Valete omnes!
>
Jenni Hunt, a/k/a Iulia Ovidia Luna
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029233253185018190112158203026129208071" >moonloon@--------</a>
Pontifex, Nova Roma
Sola Romana in Rhoda Insula (et tamen amica bovorum)

Look for me on ICQ (#488714) and/or AIM (Mooonloon)

Subject:	Re: Deadline Extended
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:04:40 -0800

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082194184241189100114253071048139" >JusticeCMO@--------</--------; wrote:

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082194184241189100114253071048139" >JusticeCMO@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 11/30/99 4:35:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232219108127031050199203252129208071" >amcgrath@--------</a> writes:
>
> << Salvete! I hereby extend the dealine for people to announce their
> candidacies for offices elected by the comitia centuriata--the offices of
> censor, consul and praetor. All the other offices are elected by the
> comitia populi tributa, which is being convened by Lucius Cornelius Sulla. >
>
> Does this mean that candidacy announcements for the other positions
> <Magistrates and such> is now past?
>

Salve Priscilla, I hope I can answer your question. I have extended the time
frame for the announcement of the Quaestors, Aediles, and of all the minor
magistrates.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul